Popular horns outside the concert hall
Actikid
trombone-related discussion groups about what is the favorite horn among
the top symphony sections. That can get a bit comical because the
answer always keeps coming back the same, i.e. Bach and the Edwards
configurations that emulate Bach, at least as far as North American
sections go. There is a pretty good reason for this. Those horns are
built for power and stability because those seem to be the main
attributes symphony orchestras expect out of their trombonists. That
power comes at the expense of agility and a richness of the timbre,
IMHO. Life is just a series of compromises, it seems.
But I digress. I have never seen the same sort of discussion with
regard to the Hollywood studio players. I would note that their music
reaches far more ears than all the symphony orchestras combined, yet
people seem to express a curiosity only in the monotone symphony sound.
The studio players, in contrast, are called upon to produce a great
variety of colors and effects on a routine basis. I'm sure a good part
of this is just plain old talent and expertise, but what horns do they
favor? I was pretty sure it wasn't "the Bach sound".
I asked one of the very active studio players, Jim Self. He plays loads
of tuba and bass trombone and has quite an eclectic collection of low
brass instruments if you look at
http://www.bassethoundmusic.com/hardware.htm.
Here is his response. "I have an old Conn 62H Bass Bone and it is still
the favorite studio horn. However I see Yamaha, Haag, Shires, new Conn
and occasionally a Bach or a Getzen."
If anybody else has information about what the prominent L.A. studio
players use, I think that would be of great interest.
Milton Brewster
says...
---
Thanks very much for asking this question. I wasn't going to post
for a while, but this is exactly and precisely the kind of thing
that I need to know more about, myself.
I hope some studio musicians respond to this soon. In the
meantime, I'd like to ask an additional related question: What
kinds of horns did some of the better studio and jazz virtuosos
play and why?
Slide Hampton
JJ Johnson
Urbie Green
Kai Wending
Tom Garling
Frank Fontana
Frank Rossolino
Bill Wattrous
(many others)
I know they all had agreements with major manufacturers, but what
did they *really* play? I've seen a suspicious number of King
3Bs in their hands over the years, but I'm sure these guys played
many other horns as well.
milt b
Prentiss Riddle
: I asked one of the very active studio players, Jim Self. He plays loads
: of tuba and bass trombone and has quite an eclectic collection of low
: brass instruments if you look at
: http://www.bassethoundmusic.com/hardware.htm
Who says there's no money in the music business?! Man, that is
an amazing collection of instruments. Get a load of that fluba!
I wonder whether his custom SuperBassBone solves the much-discussed
problems with the MF Superbone?
-- Prentiss Riddle ("aprendiz de todo, maestro de nada")
-- rid...@io.com / http://www.io.com/~riddle/
Carl Dershem
> I hope some studio musicians respond to this soon. In the
> meantime, I'd like to ask an additional related question: What
> kinds of horns did some of the better studio and jazz virtuosos
> play and why?
>
> Slide Hampton
> JJ Johnson
> Urbie Green
> Kai Wending
> Tom Garling
> Frank Fontana
> Frank Rossolino
> Bill Wattrous
> (many others)
>
> I know they all had agreements with major manufacturers, but what
> did they *really* play? I've seen a suspicious number of King
> 3Bs in their hands over the years, but I'm sure these guys played
> many other horns as well.
>
> milt b
Hrm.
The only ones I can say with any real knowledge are Rosolino (3b) and
Watrous (Bach 16). I've worked (and talked) with Bill, and my half
brother worked with Rosolino.
Actikid
trombonists in LA. He was wary of getting in the middle of an equipment
debate, so I am passing on the content of his message anonimously. Here
it is.
P.S. This makes the second reference to Haag I've seen today. I had
never heard of them before. See their web site at
http://www.musikhaag.ch/html/Trombones.htm They may be the only company
making an F contra these days and it is said to be excellent, as is
their bass.
==========================
There was an article in Windplayer magazine a couple of years ago which
featured
several studio trombonists and listed their equipment. The studio
players out
here usually bring between 2-4 different horns to session. Their choice
of which
to play depends on the musical situation [type of music, recording
techniques,
who else is in section]. Sometimes a player might set up two tenors and
a bass
for one session. We never know what the music will be when we show up,
so we
usually have to be prepared for it to go in any direction. Sometimes it
might be
in several directions in one date!!
Our situation is a little unusual out here. We all double on bass bone
quite a
bit. Some film composers like a LOT of bottom [Chris Young, for
instance] so
there may be 3 basses and contrabass in a section on some cues. Most of
us will
bring [or at least have in the car]...a small tenor, a med large and/or
large
tenor, and a bass. The models vary a little. The most popular small horn
is split
pretty evenly between Bach 12's and 16's and King 2B's. There is not
that much
pressure put on players to play "certain" horns. The medium large bore
of choice
is the Bach 36 [with old Conn 78H's making a little resurgence] while
the large
bore horn of choice tends to be the Conn 8H and 88H [a couple of players
have
experimented with Shires and Edwards]. Basses run the gamut. Conn 62H's,
Getzens,
Bachs, Yamahas, Haag a couple of Edwards.
The prevalent jazz/legit dichotomy among players falls by the wayside
most of the
time in the studios. The players have to cover a lot of territory
stylistically,
but all have to play together in sections. Despite their backgrounds,
players
have to pull together in a session to sound unified. The music is
sometimes hard
to characterize, even in an orchestral setting. We generally don't play
as loud
as a big orchestral bone section. And our choice of horns is determined
very
often by how the engineers record us. As a general rule, if the mics are
close
and we are in a small, isolated space, the smaller tenor equipment
"prints" best.
If we are playing in a large sound stage, with fewer mics placed further
away,
the larger equipment tends to work better. Also, there is a tendency out
here to
use straight horns, without trigger, and VERY few Thayers [none of the
tenor
players I know use them...including the LA phil section!!]. I personally
think
they are clunky on most of the horns I have tried. The big deal with
bass bones
these days is their choice of contrabass bone [and tuba more and more
these
days]...many have settled on Haag contras [there are 6 guys in LA
playing them
now, I think].
Here is a quick rundown....
Of the 13 [primarily] tenor players [who also double] I run into most in
studio
situations...small tenors: there are 8 Bachs and 4 Kings, 1 yamaha.
Medium large:
8 Bach 36's, two 78H [three guys don't play med large], one Williams.
Large bore:
8 8h/88h's, one Shires, one Bach 42, two guys don't play .547's. Among
the
tenors, the basses they double on...8 Conn 62H's, 3 Yamahas, 2 Getzens.
Of the 6 Basses I see most often, One new Conn, one Edwards, two Shires
[one guy
plays this or Haag or Yamaha--he changes around every WEEK it seems] one
Yamaha,
One Bach [or he might choose his bigger Edwards]. The large bore tenors
they play
include two 88H's, one Yamaha, one Shires One 42, one guy plays little
or no
tenor. Three of these guys play some small tenor...one plays an old conn
500/525
dual bore, one plays a Bach 16, one plays a Getzen. Of these guys 5 play
contra.
4 have settled on Haag in F, one still plays an Alexander in F.
The LA Phil all play Conn 8H/88H tenors [and bring those to record when
they do
on occasion].
gary GRIZ kurbis
Urbie Greene played a 3-B, before he became the "Martin-Man".
Carl Fontana gets pictured now, with a jazz-Edwards, now, but I believe
he played a King.
Jim pugh, now is an Edwards spokesman.
Phil Wilson - now, Edwards.
There was one 'bone-giant, maybe more than one, who's choice was Olds
Opera, but I can't remember who.
When I was first noticing bass-'bones, it seems like Conn 72H, & a few
Olds models were the industy's standards, though I remember that someone
personally showed me that King's bass-'bones, had about an inch-longer
slide, which was a real advantage, when NOBODY had twin-plugs!
The real "historian", on all this, is probably Bobby Knight, who I know,
rubbed elbows with many of these studio-greats, as he was one of them,
on the west coast. He can probably straighten me out, on my many
mistakes, here!
Gary "GRIZ" Kurbis Sr.
PASSING THE TORCH - KEEPING THE FIRE OF BRASS ALIVE ! !
Actikid
Player magazine article of a few years ago that focused on the LA studio
musicians.
http://home.wxs.nl/~schot403/begin/instruments/inst2/inst2.html#TROMBONE
Bobby Knight
"GRIZ" kurbis) wrote:
<clip>
>When I was first noticing bass-'bones, it seems like Conn 72H, & a few
>Olds models were the industy's standards, though I remember that someone
>personally showed me that King's bass-'bones, had about an inch-longer
>slide, which was a real advantage, when NOBODY had twin-plugs!
>The real "historian", on all this, is probably Bobby Knight, who I know,
>rubbed elbows with many of these studio-greats, as he was one of them,
>on the west coast. He can probably straighten me out, on my many
>mistakes, here!
To be truthful, except for a few I never paid any attention to what
others were using. George Roberts was playing a 70H when I first got
to town, and then he went to Olds. I had a 70H, a 72H, then went to
Olds, then had Minick build me a couple of horns, one a single trigger
with the trigger tubing made of aluminum, and then one of the first
double-trigger horns. After that I used a Bach and even a Yamaha.
For the tenors I used a Bach 42 and a Yamaha. I still have most of
these horns, and haven't touched them in 15 years. Bummer.
There were guys who messed around with different lead pipes, bells,
and mouthpieces. Just to put it in perspective, George, the guy who
made it possible for all of us bass trombonists to make a living,
always played a single trigger horn (at least up until I left in '80),
and a Bach 1 1/2G, or equivalent. He always sounded great!! You can
trick up everything except musicianship.
bk
Michael Shoshani
Brewster <scri...@best.com>'s message with Folger's Crystals. Let's
see if anyone notices:
>I hope some studio musicians respond to this soon. In the
>meantime, I'd like to ask an additional related question: What
>kinds of horns did some of the better studio and jazz virtuosos
>play and why?
>
>Slide Hampton
>JJ Johnson
JJ played a King 2B, a King 3B, and a Yamaha 685
>Urbie Green
Urbie played a King 2B for years, then worked with Martin to
produce the Martin Urbie Green trombone
>Kai Wending
King 2B, at least for a while
>Tom Garling
>Frank Fontana
Carl Fontana has played a Conn 6H, a Bach (forgot the number), and
currently plays an Edwards
>Frank Rossolino
>Bill Wattrous
"Life is an art, not a science;
You make it up as you go along." -Al Hirschfeld
Michael Shoshani
<bkn...@verio.net>'s message with Folger's Crystals. Let's see if
anyone notices:
>You can trick up everything except musicianship.
Wish someone would tell that to the promoters of what passes for pop
music these days, as well as the fans that lap it up...
MS
Bobby Knight
wrote:
>On Fri, 25 May 2001 14:02:38 -0500, we secretly replaced Bobby Knight
><bkn...@verio.net>'s message with Folger's Crystals. Let's see if
>anyone notices:
>
>>You can trick up everything except musicianship.
>
>Wish someone would tell that to the promoters of what passes for pop
>music these days, as well as the fans that lap it up...
>
They know, they just don't care. Why should they? The fans "lapping
it up" are making them filthy rich without having to find real talent.
bk
Actikid
reposting here with his permission. Steve is a prominent west coast
player who is also building up an instrument and accessories business
that caters to trombonists and other brass. Check that out at
http://members.aol.com/sftrombone/. He is known for being a very
service- and quality-oriented guy. Here are his posts.
=====================================================================
I posted a list of what bass trombones most of the LA players use on the
trombone list several years ago, but I have lost the address of the
searchable archives to retrieve it.
The most popular instruments both for tenor and bass trombones are ones
that are fast responding have enough presence at lower volumes to be
picked up by microphones. Most tenor players use the Bach 12, King 2B
Jiggs Whigham, Bach 16M, King 3B, Conn 6H, Conn 100H, Getzen 1050. For
more symphonic session, a Bach 36 or Conn 88H is the favorite. I can't
think of any commercial players using the Bach 42 in a recording
situation. They don't seem to have a sound that blends well with the
smaller horns in the way they prefer out here. One can't play at a
symphonic volume in a studio without their sound bleeding onto the other
microphones and
For bass trombones, the Conn 62H and Minick horns are favorites, as well
as the Yamaha 613H, 622H, Getzen 1062 and 1052.
I see few Edwards instruments out here so far, as well as few Thayer
valves. Los Angeles does indeed feel like an island sometimes, as our
preferences in horns seem to differ from other areas.
Shires seem to be making quite an appearance here, and I've had a lot of
interest from local players about my Shires sales.
Here are a few names as I think of them, with apologies to those I
haven't listed
Alan Kaplan King 2B JW, Bach 36, Conn 62H
Bruce Otto Bach 12, 62H, Conn 62H
Alex Iles King 2B JW, 88H, Yamaha 613H
Andy Martin King 2B JW, 88H, Getzen 1062FDR
Charlie Morillas Bach 12?, Bach 36, Getzen 1052FDR
Bill Booth Conn 8H, 88H, 62H, Bach 16M
Loren Marsteller 88H
Charlie Loper Bach 12, Bach 16M
Bill Reichenbach Conn 62H, 88H, 32H
Bob Sanders Shires, Haag, Getzen 1047FR, 1050
Phil Teele Yamaha 612H
Ken Kugler Shires, Yamaha 622H, Getzen 1062FDR
Terry Cravens Shires, Edwards
Jeff Reynolds Getzen 1062FDR
George Thatcher Conn 62H, Bach 50B2, Edwards
And I play a Bach 16M, Conn 88H, and Minick bass and contrabass
trombones.
All the best,
Steve Ferguson
================================================
(... and here is Steve's original list to which he referred above.)
So what do people play here? I don't know all of who plays what bass
bone in town, so some important names are missing, but here (in no
particular order) is an informal sampling of L.A. that I've seen. Sorry
to those of you I missed
Jeff Reynolds - Getzen 1062, formerly played Conn
Don Waldrop - Yamaha 613H
Bill Reichenbach - Conn 62H
Terry Cravens - Shires, Edwards
Mike Millar - Bach 50
Rich Bullock - Getzen 1062, formerly Conn
Bryant Byers - Getzen 1062 and Bach 50B2O
Robbie Hioke - Conn 62H
Bob Sanders - Shires and Haag
Kenny Shroyer - Conn, with an Olds bell
George Thatcher - Edwards, Bach 50B2, Conn 62H
Les Benedict - Holton valve section with Conn 62H bell
Bill Booth - Conn 62H *
Robert Coomber - Edwards, Bach 50B2
Matt Flemming - Holton w/Bach bell *
Bill Masonheimer - Getzen 1062*
Charlie Morillas - Getzen 1052 *
Kevin Porter - King Duo Gravis*
Jim Self - Conn 62H *
Maurice Spears - Conn
Phil Teele - Yamaha 612H
Steve Ferguson - Minick
Andy Malloy - Conn 62H *
Ernie Tack - Olds
George Roberts - Conn
Brad Close - Bach 50B2*
Andy Martin - Getzen 1062*
Alex Iles - Yamaha 613H*
Mike Suter - Holton
Jeff Stupin - Bach 50B2O
Clifford Childers - Bach 50B3T*
George McMullen - Conn (112H prototype) *
Matt Varho - Conn 62H, Holton and Minick
Craig Ware - Yamaha 622H
Dave Ryan - Olds *
Phil Keen - Bach *
Ken Mengal - Getzen 1052 *
Rick Berkeley - Conn 62H
Tommy Johnson - Bach *
Jim Morris - Bach 50B3T*
Randy Aldcroft - Conn 62H *
Wendell Kelly - Bach 50B2*
Jack Redmond - Conn *
Morris Repass - Bach 50B2
Dan Hemwall - Bach 50B3
Ira Nepus - Conn 62H *
Bruce Paulson - Minick *
Ken Kugler - Shires and Yamaha 622
Peter Brockman - ?
Ron Glass - ? *
John Leys - ? *
* denotes tenor bone player or tubist who doubles on bass bone
More Yamahas appear here than I expected before I typed this.
Interesting. But, every brand is represented here, and it shows that
many people sound good on many different styles of horns. Get what you
like and can afford, and practice. The trend I see on the list is that
orchestra players mostly play Bach, and more commercial players mostly
choose Conn, Yamaha, or Getzen.
All the best,
Steve Ferguson
Actikid
>
> >You can trick up everything except musicianship.
>
> Wish someone would tell that to the promoters of what passes for pop
> music these days, as well as the fans that lap it up...
Pop music and musicanship go together like the WWF goes together with
althleticism. Some of the WWF rasslers are good athletes, but that
isn't the main thing. People who go to watch understand it isn't
serious wrestling, but they enjoy it for other reasons.
I enjoy some of the pop acts, although there aren't many I'd want to
take in for a 90 minute concert. And some of them have some
musicianship. I admire matchbox 20, for example. A generation ago,
Earth Wind and Fire displayed great musicianship plus a very compelling
performance. I'm sure there are are quite a few competent musicians on
teh pop scene, and the smooth jazz scene for that matter. It is just
that the music isn't the main thing.
Silver3B
recommend those two horns is cause currently those are the only two horns( that
I'm aware of) in current production that can be made into a convertible F/G
attachment by a simple and low cost(about $150) modification. It allows you to
convert the F attachment to a G attachment and back, F to G and G to F, by
simply moving a tuning crook. Mark Rasmussen at Windsmith Music in San Diego,
phone (619) 220-8984 is the individual who modified my horns and has experience
in making (convertible) F/G attachments
When you use the trigger on an F attachment tenor horn it's like making first
position into 6th position and 2nd position into 7th. It's a very nice feature
in getting lower notes, extending lower register, and obtaining some
alternative positions. In much the same way the G attachment, with the trigger
depressed, makes the tenor horn's first position into the 4th postion. In
other words without the trigger you play 1 through 3 and with the trigger 1
through 4 now becomes 4, 5, 6, and 7th position. It also extends your lower
register a bit but adds an incredible amount of alternative positions. Making
your horn so much more versatile. Something to consider when getting a new or
addition horn.
Anthony Cecena( Silver3B and Silver4B)
Neal
music is necessarily of low musical quality. That's complete and utter
bullshit - in my opinion, of course! :o)
In my latest job, I hear a lot of pop music all day, and I love most of it,
some because it shows great musicianship, and others which don't but I
happen to like the thinking that went into it. Some I appreciate as being an
excellent example of a particular style of pop music, but I laugh at it
because it's such a total piece of crap musically.
My own personal guide to playing good pop music is "Entertain the audience,
and work the music in as best you can." Often a competent musician who knows
how to entertain can do this most of the time. I am lucky to be in an act
now where the other 7 people are just truly entertaining people, and also
talented players. Without the talent, we'd be an average club act; without
the entertainment, we'd never even get booked in a club.
Some say that pop is more business thinking - selling yourself - than
musical thinking. I see it as a form of performance art, if you will. The
creation of the stage presence can and should be coupled with the musical
situation. The best and most time-hardy examples of pop music are also
generally well played, as far as I've heard since the late 60's. Or maybe I
just like the more musical acts better.
Then again, think of Yes, BS&T, EW&F, Rush, Zappa, the list can go on - all
well played music which was, for the most part, hugely successful in the pop
realm. Other than Zappa, who is thought of by many in the same way as the
Dr. Demento denizens (although Al Yankovic is one truly talented musician
and arranger), all have hits which would be hugely popular today if the
radio played them a little more often, or if WE have it booming out of our
car stereos on a summer day at a red light. Wouldn't it be a treat to stop
and see a convertible next to you booming out Kansas's "Point Of Know
Return" or Yes's "Roundabout"?
There's a project for all of us this summer. Rent a convertible with a good
stereo for a weekend and do this. Spread the word.
"Actikid" <acti...@netzero.net> wrote in message
news:3B0EE612...@netzero.net...
gary GRIZ kurbis
gary GRIZ kurbis
When I was on the road for Chrysler Corp., in 1969-70, Giardinelli
would've built me a custom-'bone, made from a cluster of parts of all
manufacture. A friend of mine, while in NYC, got fitted-up, with an
Olds-Super bell, retooled to fit a 2-B slide. Man I loved the "snap" of
that horn! $1500.00 was a lot of money back then, for a straight-stick
tenor!
Another music store in NYC, Bandy's, would cook-up custom brass, for a
tidy sum.
I was playing a 48H, back then, with a punched-out 7c, & didn't have
any complaints about it, 'til we were in Ft. Wayne, & my beautiful
Connstellation got run-over by a hit-&-run while I was loading equipment
into the truck! Wayne Music Store, sold me my used Olds Opera, for
$350.00, on no signature, & let me pay for it 3 months later, when that
tour was over! They never even sent me a bill! They couldn't - they
didn't have my address! I paid an extra $25.00, for their trouble, & for
getting me out of a real JAM!
I should have hung on to that Opera! I sold it, when I got my new
3-B-SS. The slide on that big Opera, was much lighter weight, than the
slde on that King! The King's slide was slicker, but the Olds' slide was
still quicker.
Now I'd like them ALL back!
Milton Brewster
says...
> Steve Ferguson made two postings on this subject on the trombone-L. I'm
> reposting here with his permission. Steve is a prominent west coast
> player who is also building up an instrument and accessories business
> that caters to trombonists and other brass. Check that out at
> http://members.aol.com/sftrombone/. He is known for being a very
> service- and quality-oriented guy. Here are his posts.
[snip for space]
What a great list! I am glad to see Getzen finally make an
appearance, and I wonder where Holton is.
Also; when did Mr. Ferguson write this? I wonder if it reflects
a few of the very newest horns out and around, like the Getzen
and Edwards .500 bore "Jazz" models?
All of this equipment talk might look like overkill, but it's
not. I think it's actually a small start at looking at what some
of the best professional trombonists in the US have settled on --
and I'm someone who would much rather talk about music than
equipment, strange as that sounds right now.
Still; I can't help but feel a bit warmer inside, finally seeing
some references to horns that are a little more like my two
Kings. It's nice to know that my time is not wasted when I work
through slurs and scales on something that is NOT a .547 bore
bombast special.
milt b
PS: But maybe if I bought a Bach 42, I could hit low notes and do
trills properly?
Kent
<scri...@best.com> wrote:
>I
>
>PS: But maybe if I bought a Bach 42, I could hit low notes and do
>trills properly?
just can't be still can ya milt. :)
kent the stiff wristed elbow wanker king sterling 4b trilling
challenged bonehead.
Actikid
> Also; when did Mr. Ferguson write this? I wonder if it reflects
> a few of the very newest horns out and around, like the Getzen
> and Edwards .500 bore "Jazz" models?
He wrote the first half of the above post last week. He wrote the
bottom half about 2 years ago. I assume the top half represents his
most current knowledge.
> All of this equipment talk might look like overkill, but it's
> not. I think it's actually a small start at looking at what some
> of the best professional trombonists in the US have settled on --
> and I'm someone who would much rather talk about music than
> equipment, strange as that sounds right now.
I agree. A lot of the institutional trombone world -- that is, the
university scene and the orchestras -- has a strong bias towards a
single, particular type of horn. And this institutional bias seems to
be way over-represented in much of the internet discussion (although
this forum is much more open-minded than some of the others). To hear
some folks talk, any equipment that isn't a 42b, 88H, or equivalent is
just a "near beer trombone" that someone uses on their way to being a
"complete trombonist". (I know I exaggerate here, but I'm trying to get
to the heart of this institutional bias.) Hobby trombonists like me and
symphony wannabes are heavily influenced by this institutional bias. We
either go that direction or else we harbor guilt feelings.
It is really illuminating to see in such stark form the facts about the
real world outside the institutions. When you look at the people who
took the risk to freelance in one of the most competitive arenas in the
world without the security of a cushy university or symphony chair, they
had to make equipment selections that maximized their ability to sound
good and be versatile. In that locale, you either sound great or else
you don't eat. It is really striking that almost none of them uses the
"right" equipment, as defined by the instutional community.
The point here isn't to criticize anybody's equipment preference. Quite
the opposite. I think the point is that it is a diverse world. ALmost
none of us will end up playing for a major symphony orchestra, so maybe
we shouldn't be giving so much weight to the equipment that particular
island of trombonists prefers to use.
To put this in less abstract terms, I've been playing bass trombone with
a pretty decent big band locally (decent relative to what you might
expect of a band of weekend warriors that play together once every 4-6
weeks). I've been trying to get an appropriate bass trombone sound with
limited success. I have such a big investment in my Edwards bass (the
typical "institutional" special) that I didn't want to buy a different
bass for the big band work. Long story short, I've been tinkering for
almost a year. Last night we had a job where I felt I was getting close
to a good sound, really for the first time ever. Basically, I've
downsized almost everything. In this setting, I use a shallower
mouthpiece, a tighter leadpipe, and a thinner bell. Last night I
ditched my big honking 562/578 slide and replaced it with the 547/547
lightweight slide from my "institutional" tenor. (OK, I know that a
lightweight slide is also a no-no in the instutitional crowd.) What a
difference! Now when I play the pedals, somebody can actually hear me.
I'm not as load, but much easier to hear. Not only do I sound better,
but it is half the work to produce this sound on the downsized
configuration.
The "instutional" bass is about the worst possible equipment selection
in this case. There is this knee-jerk reaction among many in the
trombone community that say thinks like "George Roberts could sound
great on a garden hose". Well the compilation by Steve Ferguson and
others is pretty strong evidence that is baloney. I didn't see any
garden hoses on thiat list of preferred equipment. Those great studio
players all gravitated to equipment that makes them sound their best.
In other words, you must have talent, but equipment really does matter.
Carl Dershem
>
> To put this in less abstract terms, I've been playing bass trombone with
> a pretty decent big band locally (decent relative to what you might
> expect of a band of weekend warriors that play together once every 4-6
> weeks). I've been trying to get an appropriate bass trombone sound with
> limited success. I have such a big investment in my Edwards bass (the
> typical "institutional" special) that I didn't want to buy a different
> bass for the big band work. Long story short, I've been tinkering for
> almost a year. Last night we had a job where I felt I was getting close
> to a good sound, really for the first time ever. Basically, I've
> downsized almost everything. In this setting, I use a shallower
> mouthpiece, a tighter leadpipe, and a thinner bell. Last night I
> ditched my big honking 562/578 slide and replaced it with the 547/547
> lightweight slide from my "institutional" tenor. (OK, I know that a
> lightweight slide is also a no-no in the instutitional crowd.) What a
> difference! Now when I play the pedals, somebody can actually hear me.
> I'm not as load, but much easier to hear. Not only do I sound better,
> but it is half the work to produce this sound on the downsized
> configuration.
I had a similar situation (save that I could care less what syumphony
wannabes say or do - I'm a jazz player, and play on what gives me the
sound I like) and found that going from a Schilke 51 to a Wick 1AL
*seriously* "edged up" my tone, allowing me to be heard when playing
bass 'bone in various jazz bands without becoming too sharp, or losing
responsiveness in the low register. That's on a Benge 290 (another horn
that didn't make the list, but ... Marcellus is a phenomenal player, and
it works very well for me).
> The "instutional" bass is about the worst possible equipment selection
> in this case. There is this knee-jerk reaction among many in the
> trombone community that say thinks like "George Roberts could sound
> great on a garden hose". Well the compilation by Steve Ferguson and
> others is pretty strong evidence that is baloney. I didn't see any
> garden hoses on thiat list of preferred equipment. Those great studio
> players all gravitated to equipment that makes them sound their best.
> In other words, you must have talent, but equipment really does matter.
Well ... kind of.
That said, George can make *any* horn sing. I've worked with him a few
times (a very nice guy, and phenomenal on the horn). But he's picked
the horns he uses because they give him the sound and feel he wants -
and he uses different ones for different gigs.
But he's played my Bach 36 and gotten a wonderful sound, even below the
staff, and according to those "symphony wannabes" that's the next thing
to a garden hose. (hah!)
cd
John Lowe
>
>
> I had a similar situation (save that I could care less what syumphony
> wannabes say or do - I'm a jazz player, and play on what gives me the
> sound I like) and found that going from a Schilke 51 to a Wick 1AL
> *seriously* "edged up" my tone, allowing me to be heard when playing
> bass 'bone in various jazz bands without becoming too sharp, or losing
> responsiveness in the low register. That's on a Benge 290 (another horn
> that didn't make the list, but ... Marcellus is a phenomenal player, and
> it works very well for me).
>
A 51? I'm not surprised that you're happier with the sound you get from
the 1AL; a 51 is pretty small for a 290.
I play a 290 myself (with a Schilke 60D). It would not be my first
choice if I were playing jazz for money, however. The sound is far too
tuba-y. Then again, that was one reason I chose the horn, since I often
find myself filling in for a prodigal tubist on short (as in "John, the
tuba player didn't show") notice.
John Lowe
Carl Dershem
>
> A 51? I'm not surprised that you're happier with the sound you get from
> the 1AL; a 51 is pretty small for a 290.
>
> I play a 290 myself (with a Schilke 60D). It would not be my first
> choice if I were playing jazz for money, however. The sound is far too
> tuba-y. Then again, that was one reason I chose the horn, since I often
> find myself filling in for a prodigal tubist on short (as in "John, the
> tuba player didn't show") notice.
>
> John Lowe
I often use that horn for pit orchestra stuff, as it's far closer to the
sound expected, and besides - it was a gift, so I have a good large horn
without having to pay for it. Given the choice, I would have gone for a
Bach 50BO or King 7B. But with the 1AL, I gan get a very nice jazzy
sound on it.
But I went through a few dozen mouthpieces before I settled on the 1AL.
Would have preferred a 0AL, but none were available. Not as deep or ...
"fluffy" in sound as the others I'd tried, including the 60, the Bach 1,
etc., and the rim's more comfortable.
cd
John Lowe
the horn. Looking at the comparison chart at the Giardinelli site, the
rim diameter of Wick 1AL is the same as a Bach 1.25G; I'd expect the
Benge to be very close to the Bach in all ways.
John Lowe
Chris Tune
Urbie is known to have been using a 2B (sometimes with a 3B bell, sometimes
not)
Frank Rosolino had a gold plated Conn 6H which he played forever (don't know
what happened to it).
Dick Nash plays a Williams (don't know model no), but also has recently
played Bach 16M. I've played with him recently and he uses a Bach 11C
mouthpiece.
Milt Bernhart used a King 2B according to his statements.
Alex Iles uses a King 2B "Jiggs Whigham" model which has a very "lightened"
slide (I think this is part of the Whigham model)
Les Benedict uses a Conn, not sure of model . . .is .500 bore, I believe.
Bill Tole uses a Martin sometimes and a King 2B like horn others (might be
another Jiggs Whigham).
Alan Kaplan also rings in on King 2B Jiggs Whigham.
These players also sometimes use a larger bore horn for major film scoring
(i.e. symphonic sound) sessions, so you sometimes hear about Bach 36 or 42,
also Conn 8H, 88H for this purpose.
Michael Shoshani
<ne...@spamjavanet.com>'s message with Folger's Crystals. Let's see if
anyone notices:
>Some say that pop is more business thinking - selling yourself - than
>musical thinking. I see it as a form of performance art, if you will. The
>creation of the stage presence can and should be coupled with the musical
>situation. The best and most time-hardy examples of pop music are also
>generally well played, as far as I've heard since the late 60's. Or maybe I
>just like the more musical acts better.
>
>Then again, think of Yes, BS&T, EW&F, Rush, Zappa, the list can go on - all
>well played music which was, for the most part, hugely successful in the pop
>realm. Other than Zappa, who is thought of by many in the same way as the
>Dr. Demento denizens (although Al Yankovic is one truly talented musician
>and arranger), all have hits which would be hugely popular today if the
>radio played them a little more often, or if WE have it booming out of our
>car stereos on a summer day at a red light. Wouldn't it be a treat to stop
>and see a convertible next to you booming out Kansas's "Point Of Know
>Return" or Yes's "Roundabout"?
It would. But that was music. I specifically railed against "what
passes for pop music *today*". Things like Britney Aguilara, or The
Back Sync Boys.
Certainly there is great pop music with high musicianship
around...Yes, Rush, all the ones you mention above plus others such as
Chicago (at least in the 70s), Blood Sweat & Tears, Three Dog Night,
Steely Dan...notice I'm running out of steam as I approach the 80s :)
Michael Shoshani
Chicago IL
Michael Shoshani
anyone notices:
>To be truthful, except for a few I never paid any attention to what
>others were using. George Roberts was playing a 70H when I first got
>to town, and then he went to Olds.
I just stumbled across an eBay auction for a 1961 Olds advertisement
with George Roberts. I have no idea what model he was playing, but it
quite clearly had tuning in the slide. Was that common on bass
trombones?
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1433811987
gary GRIZ kurbis
"Jazz", out of their logo! Early stuff, was hot & funKEEE! But every
album, got progressively "over-produced", & the instruments were
becoming more processed & distant, 'til they finally dubbed themselves
as "New Age", with that wet, glassy, tinkly sound! YUK!
They were once, "down & dirty", & told the truth!
Bobby Knight
wrote:
>This listing by Mr. Shoshani seems pretty accurate to me:
>
>Urbie is known to have been using a 2B (sometimes with a 3B bell, sometimes
>not)
>Frank Rosolino had a gold plated Conn 6H which he played forever (don't know
>what happened to it).
Conrad Herwig has it.
bk
Bobby Knight
wrote:
>On Fri, 25 May 2001 14:02:38 -0500, we secretly replaced Bobby Knight
><bkn...@verio.net>'s message with Folger's Crystals. Let's see if
>anyone notices:
>
>>To be truthful, except for a few I never paid any attention to what
>>others were using. George Roberts was playing a 70H when I first got
>>to town, and then he went to Olds.
>
>I just stumbled across an eBay auction for a 1961 Olds advertisement
>with George Roberts. I have no idea what model he was playing, but it
>quite clearly had tuning in the slide. Was that common on bass
>trombones?
I think that the 70H had tuning in the slide, and that's what George
was using until he went with olds. A college friend was head of R&D
with Olds at the time, and one of his jobs was to work with the pros.
They had just bought Reynolds, and were in the throes of deciding
which horns to keep producing from both lines.
I'm sure that they built George what he wanted. After a while, they
added me to the list and were great about doing what I thought I
needed. This was all before the double-trigger era, or I'm sure we'd
have done that too.
bk
Sacqueboutier
snip
I think a King 3B is a fantastic horn. It's great for
jazz and studio work. I use mine in our church
praise band.
--
AAAAAHHHHH! The atmosphere! AAAAAAAHHHHHH!
Don Patterson
* DCP Music Printing
* Professional Computer Music Typeset
* Music Arrangements
* don...@olg.com
* Trombonist
* "The President's Own"
* United States Marine Band
gary GRIZ kurbis
Roberts" model.
The photos showed the F-side to look much like the Olds I have, that I
call, "BONEZILLA"! Actually, a fairly tight wrap, by today's "open-wrap"
standards.
Peter Mansfield
Actikid <acti...@netzero.net> wrote:
> Not only do I sound better,
> but it is half the work to produce this sound on the downsized
> configuration.
>
> The "instutional" bass is about the worst possible equipment selection
> in this case. There is this knee-jerk reaction among many in the
> trombone community that say thinks like "George Roberts could sound
> great on a garden hose". Well the compilation by Steve Ferguson and
> others is pretty strong evidence that is baloney. I didn't see any
> garden hoses on thiat list of preferred equipment. Those great studio
> players all gravitated to equipment that makes them sound their best.
> In other words, you must have talent, but equipment really does matter.
FWIW - quite some years ago I tried the Olds 'George Roberts' Model -
as Bobby K says, single trigger, about 550?? bore and an 8-8˝? bell.
did anyone ever sound better?
Personally, I think the great thing is that you have to be able to play with 'bite'
as well as fullness at the required dynamic (wish someone had told me when I was a student)
and with the required degree of flexibility - and of course to blend with your section.
So its horses for courses. If you can't make it bite without being too loud oor too fat
-downsize!
PeterM
--
Actikid
>
> Personally, I think the great thing is that you have to be able to play with 'bite'
> as well as fullness at the required dynamic (wish someone had told me when I was a student)
> and with the required degree of flexibility - and of course to blend with your section.
> So its horses for courses. If you can't make it bite without being too loud oor too fat
> -downsize!
Good succinct rule to follow. And I would add, if you aren't sure then
you are probably too heavy. It is safer to err on the size of
downsizing. A little extra bite never hurt anybody on commercially
oriented music, and it is easier for the player to take the edge off a
smaller horn than it is to put a bite on a slide tuba.
Peter Mansfield
Actikid <acti...@netzero.net> wrote:
> > So its horses for courses. If you can't make it bite without being too loud oor too fat
> > -downsize!
> Good succinct rule to follow. And I would add, if you aren't sure then
> you are probably too heavy. It is safer to err on the size of
> downsizing. A little extra bite never hurt anybody on commercially
> oriented music, and it is easier for the player to take the edge off a
> smaller horn than it is to put a bite on a slide tuba.
Damn right!
PeterM
--
gary GRIZ kurbis
world would call a 3/4 sized tuba. It's a full .712" bore, at the
slides, & it's what his new private teacher, at N.I.University suggested
he get for "Applied-Brass" classes, when he starts actually going to
Northern.
The tone is very centered, & never "jiggles", like cheaper tubas do.
If I read in the key of G-Major, as if I were reading F-Major, I can
pretty-much stay out of trouble. I know that evenyually, just memorizing
the new CC-language, is the real answer here, but in the mean-time, this
horn is like driving a big Mercedes, or Caddilac, or Rolls-Royce - take
your pick!
with this "Rudy", the player has the choice, whether to sound velvetty,
or snappy!