Edwards CF Bells
Mark Chittenden
difference does it supposedly make? Is it a gimmick (rose brass tuning
slides!!)?
MC
Moran, Doug - Denison
The CF Treatment indicates the bell was flame treated. This is done prior
to the finish being applied. As I understand it, this is a hand operation
done using some sort of heat/flame device.
For example, I have a 310C bell I bought back in 1992 when I bought my
Edwards, and I ordered a 310CF bell a couple of years ago. The 310CF is
flame treated with a soldered rim. I noticed a more centered sound,
easier to focus. I asked a number of folks I respected to listen to me
play the same passage with bells (without telling them which bell I was
using). All of the folks liked the sound of the "CF" bell better.
And, *for me*, the rose brass tuning slide made the biggest difference in
how my horn played and responded. In fact, I have a yellow brass tuning
slide or two I'd be happy to sell. Might have been the day they were
made, may be the metal. But, it IS NOT snake oil.
Doug Moran
JB
--
John B.
"Moran, Doug - Denison" <mor...@max.cc.denison.edu> wrote in message
news:Pine.PMDF.4.21L.0110181...@max.cc.denison.edu...
Actikid
>
> Are you sure that CF isn't Cryogenic Freezing?
>
thought it was just an oven thing, but I don't really know.
Gareth Dunley
--
Gareth Dunley
Virtuoso: someone who plays pieces of music of little artistic merit
faster and louder than anyone else.
"JB" <gmoff...@home.com> wrote in message
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Moran, Doug - Denison
I inquired about sending my existing bell up to have the flame treatment
done, since I liked the results so much. I was told that was not possible
due to the steps in the manufacturing process.
From the Edward's web site:
CF treating is a partial heat treating process. This treatment allows the
bell to blow more freely and adds color to the sound.
http://www.edwards-instruments.com/trombone/tenor/bells/
Doug
Papagrizbone
I will inject this tid-bit, however.
It's not as unique of a process as Edwards would have us believe.
Papagrizbone
I wasn't going to frustrate myself, entering this thread, but now I like it -
I just didn't want to be first!
A "one-piece" bell, which is a mere tube at one end, & 8 to 10" at the other
end, can't be "drawn", cold - it MUST be heated, to soften the brass (usually),
to make it plyable enough, to work the flared end to become "paper-thin". This
is a "given".
To let the hot metal cool naturally, is called, "normalizing". To control the
cooling period from 875 F to ambient, is called "annealing". To quickly dunk
this hot metal into water (alcohol, for brass or copper), is called, "chilled".
It's not the amount of heat, which decides if a metal is going to bend or break
- it's the "quench-time". The quick-chilled metal, from it's softened temp,
makes it brittle, but hard. Annealing of the same metal, allows flexabilty, but
it's so soft, it dents too easily, & would probably cause a really muddy sound
on a brasswind. So to arrive at what we now have, before "CFing", took quite a
bit of R & D, for the correct "temper". This process is more than 200 years
old, improving, all the time, but it's amazing, how well a 100 yr old Conn or
White plays, when you consider the lack of "high-tech", in those days!
In the process of CF, "normalizing, annealing, & chilling"-rules still apply,
but in opposite "cause per effect" as cooling what was heated.
Dunking a trombone-bell into warm oil or alcohol, while it's -310 F, would
cause the thinnest part of the metal, to become soft as rubber, while shedding
the cold 1-F, per hour, restores the temper, but in a slightly different
"stress-arrangement", from before the CF treatment.
It isn't "folk-lore" - it's really scientifically correct, in theory - we're
just not all quite sure if it makes ie better!
If Edwards is so sure CF makes it better, they would CF ALL their bells,
saving them the time & $$ of deciding "which get", vs "which don't get" CFing.
Again, sorry for the long-windage!
Actikid
> A "one-piece" bell, which is a mere tube at one end, & 8 to 10" at the other
> end, can't be "drawn", cold - it MUST be heated, to soften the brass (usually),
> to make it plyable enough, to work the flared end to become "paper-thin". This
> is a "given".
I think the "one piece bell" is a misnomer. I don't think these bells
are drawn from a single tube. I believe they start out as a piece of
flat metal that flares out at the bell end -- sort of like the cross
section of a mushroom. They wrap thhis metal around itself and solder
it lengthwise. The two-piece bells are similar, except that the last 6
inches or so of the flare end are made from a separate disc. In that
case, you have a lengthwise solder joint that runs from the tuning slide
out through the point it hits that disc. Then you have another solder
joint that goes around the circumference where that disk hits. There
shouldn't be a radical difference in thickness throughout the bell
section. As far as I know, everybody uses this lay-up technique for
bells -- well except for the electroformed bells, of course.
> If Edwards is so sure CF makes it better, they would CF ALL their bells,
> saving them the time & $$ of deciding "which get", vs "which don't get" CFing.
It is excellent marketing. Edwards' position is neutral. They just
crank out the bells in different varieties and let the customer decide.
I'm not sure what the current pricing for their bells is, but it is
somewhere around $600. You can make a nice profit at that price. The
raw supplies (brass, solder, lacquer, ferrule, and fittings) are
probably about $50 (just a wild guess). There is loads of labor, but
90% of the process is identical for all the bells, so I don't think they
are absorbing a big penalty for the different variations. They do have
the inventory cost, but even that isn't too bad. They probably keep no
more than 200 bells sitting around most of the time. When they sell
one, they put that combination back into the manufacturing pipeline. It
is likely to be a bigger problem for their overseas dealers.
In theory there must be about 300 different permutations of bells they
will make for each series of their trombones. In practice, I think the
market has settled in on a set of about 20 of the bells customers like
best. A lot of these bells play distictly differently, but not
necessarily better or worse. Lots of customers end up buying more than
one bell the same way people have more than one pair of shoes. Again,
smart marketing. When a customer will give you an extra $600 or $1200,
why not take it?
Mark Chittenden
"Actikid" wrote
> I think the "one piece bell" is a misnomer. I don't think these bells
> are drawn from a single tube. I believe they start out as a piece of
> flat metal that flares out at the bell end -- sort of like the cross
> section of a mushroom. They wrap thhis metal around itself and solder
> it lengthwise. The two-piece bells are similar, except that the last 6
> inches or so of the flare end are made from a separate disc. In that
> case, you have a lengthwise solder joint that runs from the tuning slide
> out through the point it hits that disc. Then you have another solder
> joint that goes around the circumference where that disk hits. There
> shouldn't be a radical difference in thickness throughout the bell
> section. As far as I know, everybody uses this lay-up technique for
> bells -- well except for the electroformed bells, of course.
Bach and Yamaha seem very proud that their bells are one piece and make a
bit of a song and dance about it, and Edwards has recently introduced some
one piece bells to its line. Are they supposed to be superior in some way.
Maybe there is a greater iniformity of bell vibration and/or response, I
don't know. Conn Elkharts are made from a two piece construction and they
have always had a very large fan-base. Though I'm not sure how the new Conn
bells are made.
> In theory there must be about 300 different permutations of bells they
> will make for each series of their trombones. In practice, I think the
> market has settled in on a set of about 20 of the bells customers like
> best. A lot of these bells play distictly differently, but not
> necessarily better or worse. Lots of customers end up buying more than
> one bell the same way people have more than one pair of shoes. Again,
> smart marketing. When a customer will give you an extra $600 or $1200,
> why not take it?
Its getting ridiculous just how many bell/slide/leadpipe/tuning slide
combinations you can get now from the newer manufacturers (and some of the
older ones too). You can even get tuning slides from Edwards with CF or
non-CF, various tempers and radii, different alloys. Where will it end? Just
as Jimmy Hendrix played on new basic stock Stratocasters (tuned to left
hand) some of the finest trombone players out there still use basic stock
instruments. I recently saw Ian Bousfield playing on a stock 8H (not a hint
of customisation on it) and he sounded fantastic.
MC
JB
that I couldn't stand until he got rose brass crooks put on.
--
John B.
"Mark Chittenden" <m.chit...@lineone.net> wrote in message
news:3bd6d802$1...@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com...
Actikid
> Bach and Yamaha seem very proud that their bells are one piece and make a
> bit of a song and dance about it, and Edwards has recently introduced some
> one piece bells to its line. Are they supposed to be superior in some way.
> Maybe there is a greater iniformity of bell vibration and/or response, I
> don't know. Conn Elkharts are made from a two piece construction and they
> have always had a very large fan-base. Though I'm not sure how the new Conn
> bells are made.
hammering", totally ignoring that everybody hand hammers their bells,
then everybody spins them on the mandrel. But there are people all over
who have convinced themselves that "hand hammering" is what makes the
instrument. Yamaha makes a big deal about their plasma welding
process. That sounds like a productivity improvement to me, but they
would have you believe it is an acoustic improvement.
> Its getting ridiculous just how many bell/slide/leadpipe/tuning slide
> combinations you can get now from the newer manufacturers (and some of the
> older ones too). You can even get tuning slides from Edwards with CF or
> non-CF, various tempers and radii, different alloys.
I tend to agree with you. But in the case of the tuning slide, that
dumb little dual radius thing really made a difference on my bass
trombone. Notes immediately became more secure. It is easy to do
repeated blind tests and there was no doubt about the benefit.
But would that work for a person who uses a different mouthpiece,
different embouchure formation, and has different lung capacity and
support? Maybe not. That is why Edwards has been successful. Some of
the components make a difference, some don't. But their marketing
strategy is to a) really stroke the musicians with a once-in-a-lifetime
experience, and 2) let the customer create a unique instrument. It is a
brilliant strategy, well executed, even if half the horns that clients
put together are actually pretty mediocre.
> Where will it end? Just
> as Jimmy Hendrix played on new basic stock Stratocasters (tuned to left
> hand) some of the finest trombone players out there still use basic stock
> instruments. I recently saw Ian Bousfield playing on a stock 8H (not a hint
> of customisation on it) and he sounded fantastic.
There is a book that was very popular in Silicon Valley called
"Accidental Empires". It talked in great depth about how some of the
most successful high tech companies truly stumbled into their success.
There was always a talented engineer/entrepreneur at the center of these
companies, but the early success of companies like Microsoft and Intel
was largely a function of being in the right place at the right time.
If we look back on Edwards 15 years from now, we may conclude the same
thing. They make a wonderful product, but it isn't that much better
than what you can buy right off the shelf at any big music store.
Edwards came online at the very time that the 1990s economic boom was
kicking in. Many of us felt pretty good about our financial situations
in the 1990's. This "wealth effect" (as Greenspan calls it) may have
been an essential ingredient in Edwards' success. We'll see if they can
sustain it through another Bush Bust cycle.
Yvonne & Norman Rowe
makes it vibrate and resonate better. Supposedly by having the brazing
between the throat section and the flare (bell) section causes a slight
reduction in the bell's performance level. I rather doubt that the folks
auditioning applicants for a trombone position in a major symphony orchestra
say to each other, "It sounds like this person's instrument doesn't have a
one-piece bell. I don't think he/she will be suitable for our orchestra."
Norm
"Mark Chittenden" <m.chit...@lineone.net> wrote in message
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>
Actikid
>
> The theory is that by having a bell made out of a single piece of metal
> makes it vibrate and resonate better. Supposedly by having the brazing
> between the throat section and the flare (bell) section causes a slight
> reduction in the bell's performance level. I rather doubt that the folks
> auditioning applicants for a trombone position in a major symphony orchestra
> say to each other, "It sounds like this person's instrument doesn't have a
> one-piece bell. I don't think he/she will be suitable for our orchestra."
>
done poorly. One thing to keep in mind is that the full length of the
instrument is used only on the lowest notes. The higher tones creep up
the bell section towards the tuning slide, so they are unlikely to be
affected muck by the 2-piece disc section. You can see this phenomenon
if you have a sousaphone with a removable bell. It plays pretty much in
tune and with reasonable volume in the upper register without the bell
attached.
Anybody out there have a Holton trombone with a screw-on bell. I assume
the same thing is true with that instrument. How does it play without
the last bit of bell flare?
Yvonne & Norman Rowe
done. I've spent time in instrument factories and I've seen every step of
the process from the flat, kind of mushroom-shaped "blanks" through to the
finished bell section (and beyond). Anybody who has an opportunity should
take a tour of a musical instrument factory. It's quite an eye-opener to
see what all is involved in taking a brass instrument from chunks of metal
to the finished product. I spent four years leading tours through the F. E.
Olds factory in Fullerton (1967-71) and have taken tours through the Kanstul
factory (in Anaheim, CA) and the Besson factory (in Edgeware, England).
Norm
"Actikid" <acti...@netzero.net> wrote in message
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