Help! Alto trombone questions! Key questions! Clef questions!
david hirneisen
Please help with a few questions about trombones. I was involved in a
discussion last evening in which I was not in agreement
with several other trombone players in attendance. I know some of these
questions have come up before, so I thank you in
advance for your patience with a beginner. First I'll give some
background, then ask the questions, and what my thoughts are
vs. my friends, then ask for you to comment either directly to me or
here on this news group.
Quick background -
I am 44 years old and played a trumpet for 9 years in school. I have
taken piano lessons for the last 5 years, and started
trombone about 2 years ago. Up until now, I have mostly played tenor
and bass parts with a "student" tenor trombone in a
trombone choir.
After listening to Ken Shifrin and James Thomas Miller play alto
trombones at the 99 Eastern Trombone Workshop I decided
that was the instrument for me and purchased a used Yamaha Alto trombone
at Dillion's and am currently concentrating on
learning to play it reading music written in many different ways!
so, please help with the following -
question #1 - can we revisit the issue of what "key" a B flat tenor
trombone is in?
It is my argument that it doesn't matter whether it's a B flat tenor
trombone, an E flat alto, or an F alto, they are all
non-transposing instruments - they all play in concert pitch. If you
correctly play the note written, it should be the same as on a
piano. Several of my friends, said no, their B flat trombones are in
the key of B flat, since the 1st position note is B flat. They
also carry this one step further suggesting that their E flat alto
trombones are in the key of E flat and F alto trombones are in the
key of F. I disagree, and suggested if anything, it would be fair to
say they are all in the key of "C"?
question #2 - what's the "right" way to learn to play an alto trombone?
what's the right music to use?
The first time I played an alto trombone, someone loaned me an old F
alto and a book of music for an F french horn. It didn't
take long to realize it required some real "transposing" to be going
on. I have subsequently heard of method that can be used
by assuming the notes are in tenor clef or some other clef and adding a
few flats, but kept looking for a better way.
I was limited by what music was available. In our primary book of
music, alto parts are available in B flat (for trumpets), F (for french
horns), and E flat (for alto clarinets and sax). Studying the choices
of written music and being limited in my abilities to
transpose on the fly, I came upon a novel method of using the E flat
book.
Perhaps it is just coincidence, but the E flat music is written using
the treble clef. If I assumed the clef was a bass clef and
added three flats, it worked perfectly. In the book, I played a C on
the treble clef like it was a E flat on the bass clef. I was
use to reading bass clef notes so it was more familiar to me, but of
course, the pitches I was playing was one octave above
what I was reading. Shortly thereafter I purchased the Anderson
Complete Method for E Flat Alto Trombone and quickly
realized I would have to learn alto clef (which is going quite nicely),
but I am still using my novel method as noted above until I
can rewrite much of my music in alto clef.
We have a group we're trying to get going and currently have - 3 or 4
soprano trombones, 5 altos, plus a few tenor and bass
trombones as needed. The problem is we still get into conversations
about the music requirements for the E flat altos vs. the F
altos, but they go back to the key of E flat vs. the key of F argument
- which as noted above, doesn't make sense to me!
Perhaps they are connecting the E flat book of music with the E flat
alto trombone which I believe is just coincidence; in my
mind the E flat part of each has nothing to do with one another!!!
Shall I just resign myself to rewriting my music in alto clef and stay
out of their discussions?
Any suggestions on the "best" way to learn to play an alto?
Thanks for all your help,
Dave Hirneisen
dhr...@supernet.com
dhr...@ptd.net
cdmmcnamara
in Bethlehem, PA. I have some of their music and it is transposed, reading
as an Eb instrument in treble clef. That makes sense since most (all?) of
their soprano (they have the Bach's) and alto players come from trumpet land
( or did the last time I was up there).
Question: What basses are you using Eb or F?
D. McNamara
Sacqueboutier
> question #1 - can we revisit the issue of what "key" a B flat tenor
> trombone is in?
>
> It is my argument that it doesn't matter whether it's a B flat tenor
> trombone, an E flat alto, or an F alto, they are all
> non-transposing instruments - they all play in concert pitch. If you
> correctly play the note written, it should be the same as on a
> piano. Several of my friends, said no, their B flat trombones are in
> the key of B flat, since the 1st position note is B flat. They
> also carry this one step further suggesting that their E flat alto
> trombones are in the key of E flat and F alto trombones are in the
> key of F. I disagree, and suggested if anything, it would be fair to
> say they are all in the key of "C"?
What key the horn is in has nothing to with the way you read music.
One could learn to read "C" music on a Bb trumpet and it wouldn't
affect the way the horn sounds or the notes that are produced.
The key of the horn affects only the fundmental pitch of the
horn, that is, the lowest note on the unaltered instrument (ie. in
1st position). If the lowest note is Eb, then the horn is in the
key of Eb. You can still read "C" music, but the horn is still pitched
in Eb. Now here is another catch. You can also read Eb alto music
using the same rules you used on the trumpet. If you play a low "C"
in alto sax music, it sounds like an Eb. If you approach it from
this standpoint with an alto trombone, you can play transposing
music. I've played the Hindemith alto horn Sonata using this
approach. It's a great piece for the alto trombone.
>
> question #2 - what's the "right" way to learn to play an alto trombone?
> what's the right music to use?
>
> The first time I played an alto trombone, someone loaned me an old F
> alto and a book of music for an F french horn. It didn't
> take long to realize it required some real "transposing" to be going
> on. I have subsequently heard of method that can be used
> by assuming the notes are in tenor clef or some other clef and adding a
> few flats, but kept looking for a better way.
I've never seen an alto trombone method book. Playing "F" music on
an "F" alto trombone should require NO transposing. You play from the
same approach as you would play trumpet. When you play a low "C"
(transposing) on an "F" alto, it sounds like an "F".
Trombonists often find this difficult to get past because we all
learn to read nontransposing music. However, if one is trained in
a British brass band (reading Bb treble clef music) one can do this
quite easily.
>
> I was limited by what music was available. In our primary book of
> music, alto parts are available in B flat (for trumpets), F (for french
> horns), and E flat (for alto clarinets and sax). Studying the choices
> of written music and being limited in my abilities to
> transpose on the fly, I came upon a novel method of using the E flat
> book.
>
> Perhaps it is just coincidence, but the E flat music is written using
> the treble clef. If I assumed the clef was a bass clef and
> added three flats, it worked perfectly. In the book, I played a C on
> the treble clef like it was a E flat on the bass clef. I was
> use to reading bass clef notes so it was more familiar to me, but of
> course, the pitches I was playing was one octave above
> what I was reading. Shortly thereafter I purchased the Anderson
> Complete Method for E Flat Alto Trombone and quickly
> realized I would have to learn alto clef (which is going quite nicely),
> but I am still using my novel method as noted above until I
> can rewrite much of my music in alto clef.
Learning alto clef is, obviously, the correct way to go. Your novel
transposition has been used by band directors all over the US. When
a bari sax part is missing, we would often give them a baritone or
bass part and change the key for them. With your background in trumpet,
you should be reading Eb treble clef music on an alto like a real
pro. Get the "novel" approach out of your head. Use your trumpet
reading skills. When you play that low "C" in first position (as you
used to play it open on trumpet) it will produce an "Eb" (on trumpet,
it produced a "Bb"). When you play a "C" scale, it will come out
as an "Eb" scale. ...and so it goes.
>
> We have a group we're trying to get going and currently have - 3 or 4
> soprano trombones, 5 altos, plus a few tenor and bass
> trombones as needed. The problem is we still get into conversations
> about the music requirements for the E flat altos vs. the F
> altos, but they go back to the key of E flat vs. the key of F argument
> - which as noted above, doesn't make sense to me!
>
> Perhaps they are connecting the E flat book of music with the E flat
> alto trombone which I believe is just coincidence; in my
> mind the E flat part of each has nothing to do with one another!!!
But it certainly works out pretty well. With all the talk of sopranos,
it sound as though you are part of a Moravian Church trombone choir.
Also your proximity to Dillon's Music supports this. If so, are the
part books written in treble clef Eb transposing? If they are, play
them as suggested above.
>
> Shall I just resign myself to rewriting my music in alto clef and stay
> out of their discussions?
Learn alto clef, but retain the ability to play "Eb" alto music.
--
Don Patterson
* Trombonist
* "The President's Own"
* United States Marine Band
* DCP Music Printing
* Professional Computer Music Typeset
* Music Arrangements
* don...@ccconline.net
act...@my-deja.com
Soprano trombone that a friend loaned me this week in the hopes that I
will play the high parts in his Moravian choir. I'm really not
interested in casstration, so this horn seems like the next best
thing. Being manufactured in the key of Bb, I have no difficulty
playing "regular" trombone music up an octive with this animal, except
for the times when I go for 8th position. But somehow I doubt that his
400-year-old compositions will be written in bass clef non-transposed.
What can I expect to find here? Are soprano parts written in T.C. non-
transposed? I think I can handle that because I read a lot of fake
books that way. But if there is some weird transposing, I could be in
trouble.
While we're on the subject, Eb alto trombone seems to be gaining in
popularity. It seems to me that most trombone parts suitable for Eb
Alto are written in alto clef. Can you be a bit more specific about
the transposing tips or tricks for playing Eb alto trombone on a part
written in alto clef?
It could be that ultimately we trombonists have to do what tuba players
do. The music is all written in concert pitch. It is up to the
musician to learn the correct fingerings for his/her tuba be it an F,
Eb, C, or BBb design. How any tuba player can keep all these
fingerings straight is a mystery to me, but I know several guys who
routinely play several different lengths of tuba.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Dan Cloutier
>question #1 - can we revisit the issue of what "key" a B flat tenor
>trombone is in?
>
>It is my argument that it doesn't matter whether it's a B flat tenor
>trombone, an E flat alto, or an F alto, they are all
>non-transposing instruments - they all play in concert pitch. If you
>correctly play the note written, it should be the same as on a
>piano. Several of my friends, said no, their B flat trombones are in
>the key of B flat, since the 1st position note is B flat. They
>also carry this one step further suggesting that their E flat alto
>trombones are in the key of E flat and F alto trombones are in the
>key of F. I disagree, and suggested if anything, it would be fair to
>say they are all in the key of "C"?
To answer your very last question first, not really. The instruments are
*pitched* in the keys your friends said. Tenor in Bb, Eb Alto in Eb, etc.
But, as you said, they are non-transposing instruments, so a sounding Bb is
called a Bb, and not a C. Ergo, they are written as non-transposing as well
(except in brass band literature, where they are written in Bb Treble clef,
transposing a 9th--just read Tenor Clef and transpose the key and some
accidentals and it works).
>question #2 - what's the "right" way to learn to play an alto trombone?
>what's the right music to use?
Three Alto trombone books come to mind right away. One is by Branimir Slokar,
one is by Carsten Parow, and the other is by a guy named Anderson, who IIRC
writes his method book for *transposed* Alto trombone. I guess the logic is
to learn the notes and corresponding positions the same as your Tenor, only
sounding a fourth higher. This may work well right off, but IMHO one would
run into problems when working with the Alto literature. For example, I think
a person who knows the actual notes of an Alto would have less trouble playing
Schutz "Fili Mi Absalom" or the Mozart Great Mass in c Minor, both of which
are written in treble clef, than one who learned Alto from the transposed
method.
In my experience, the strongest indicator that a trombonist has not learned
their Alto notes completely is a flat F above middle C. On Tenor, this is a
sharp note, so we instinctivley lower it. But on Alto, this is a flat note,
and anyone who lowers it has not learned the ins and outs of the Alto yet.
Hope that helps!
----------------------
The crow is a hardy creature, fire-proof in every feature.
Beware, beware the crow! --Ted hughes
GRIZ
Clear your mind! In the writing of your bone-choir charts, don't
worry about the natural key of each indvidual instrument, at it's
shortest pipe-length, or you'll go crazy! I would lay it out, as a piano
score, or choral spread, and center "real" pitches, into their "real"
locations, first in trebel & bass clefs, only. Then, individual parts
can be transferred into tenor & alto clefs, to center-grid individual
voices of the choir. C=C, no matter what clef it's in. It's up to your
alto bone section players to make a written Eb sound like Eb. If you
want to hear Eb, you shouldn't have to write Bb for your alto players!
The key-name given a certain voiced instrument, is just the
instrument's mechanical home.
Most symphonic tubists play CC tubas. These players, at one time or
another, all had to grow a new brain, when they converted from BBb
tubas, because the music handed out,
stayed the same!
Good luck!
Trombones are in Heaven....
GRIZ
http://community.webtv.net/PAPAGRIZBONE/GRIZ
http://community.webtv.net/PAPAGRIZBONE/GARYKURBISWEBPAGE
Chris Waage
<dhr...@supernet.com> wrote:
<snip>
> question #1 - can we revisit the issue of what "key" a B flat tenor
> trombone is in?
>
The trombone is truly a C instrument - if it plays a C, you hear a C. It
is commonly referred to as a Bb instrument because of the fundamental note
on the open instrument - Bb. The Eb alto is the same - non-transposing.
>
> question #2 - what's the "right" way to learn to play an alto trombone?
> what's the right music to use?
That one I'll have to pass on - I love the alto, but have never played
it. I tend to have "bass-er" desires . . .
;-)
Chris
--
Chris Waage
bas...@waageworks.com
Sacqueboutier
I visited that very church when in Bethlehem in 1997 on
tour with the Marine Band.
I gotta say that any church where the pastor uses the
word "trombone" in his sermon three times is my
kind of church.
:-)
Sacqueboutier
> While we're on the subject, Eb alto trombone seems to be gaining in
> popularity. It seems to me that most trombone parts suitable for Eb
> Alto are written in alto clef. Can you be a bit more specific about
> the transposing tips or tricks for playing Eb alto trombone on a part
> written in alto clef?
There is no trick to transposing while reading the alto clef, because
one isn't transposing when reading alto clef. It's just something
ya gotta learn how to do.
cdmmcnamara
Damned strait ;-)
On New Year's Eve the trombone choir plays at Midnight - whether or not the
pastor is done preaching. If you get the chance head up there for first
advent.
D. McNamara
cdmmcnamara
I was suggesting First Advent, the last Sunday in November this year, not
New Year's. I've only been told about their New Year's deal; for me that's a
worknight and this year even second year students can get hired.
D. McNamara