Conn 100H vs. King 2B
Lennon
that are small bores. I am curious about the three interchangeable lead
pipes of the Conn, and what effect they have on sound, as well as how the
two horns compare overall. The 100H is 250 more because it is silver
plated. The 2B is model 2102L, the Jiggs Whigham model. It comes without a
mouthpiece, but with a counterbalance, It reads H.N White company and is
apparently removable (the counterbalance did not come with the horn). Both
horns were bought at this shop in the past two year by a professional who
has been trying to buy a new horn. Neither one has seen much use. I just
purchased an excellent Elkhart Baritone horn from them, with an upright
bell, and 98% intact silver plating. The valves felt great. The gold wash
inside of the bell was almost gone, but that didn't really matter. I will
be going on vacation in one week and the decision needs to be made by the
day I get back. Thank you in advance for any help and advice.
Bill
ActiKid
Do you have a particular question in mind?
I have heard that the Whigham model is really optimized for soft playing
with a mic and isn't particularly good for other settings such as lead
in a big band. I don't know this from first hand experience, but it is
something to evaluate for yourself.
I haven't played the 100H with different leadpipes. In general, the
tighter venturis give a feeling of greater stability. The smaller pipe
may also produce a more penetrating sound. If your chops are strong
enough to control the larger venturi, you might get a bigger, fuller
sound out of that. That is a gross generalization. This is an
extremely personal matter, and there are many subtle interactions among
the leadpipe, the mouthpiece, and the embouchure. The only way to make
any real conclusions is to play the various combinations over a period
of time and a range of conditions. But that is the point behind
interchangeable leadpipes. One doesn't make a snap judgment on those
things. By being interchangeable, you have the freedom to optimize
things over several months. Personally I find this quite valuable. All
other factors being equal (which they rarely are) I would take the
instrument that has interchangeable leadpipes.
I think most folks here are aware of this, but I'll mention it for those
who aren't. There are several folks out there who make leadpipes that
can be fitted to any of the popular horns. If you want a horn with
interchangeable leadpipes, it is not cost-prohibitive to have your
favorite horn converted to take screw-in leadpipes. It's really very
minor surgery.
Chris Tune
playing" on mic is probably simply someone noting the playing character of a
typical small bore 2B.
The 2B (I play a traditional 1970's 2B) gets pretty brassy quickly as you
get truly loud. This is because of the dual bore in a typical 2B. The
Whigham may not have the dual bore, and therefore may be a little more
"linear" in going from loud to soft. Still, the 2B I use is just fine for
lead playing.
What I have to remember when I play lead, is--on "Soli" sections, "what is
the character"? If its loud and sweet, I vibrato and expect the section to
do so as well. If its loud and brassy I usually stay Non-vib.
I have also played the Minnick predecessor to the 100H. The Minnick is a
fabulous horn which plays like a very well prepared 6H. This is somewhat
larger than the 2B but not a lot. The 100H would also be a very good all
around horn suitable for lead playing. I would inspect both slides very
carefully and probably pick the one with the best overall slide quality
(look at the inside and outside tubes in an area with bright lights overhead
and tilt the slide tubes back and forth while looking at the light
reflection move over the surface. . .you will see any rippling from poor
"extrusions").
Good luck
--
Christopher R. Tune
http://home/pacbell.net/crtune/
Cell (818) 468-4767
Home (818) 763-9397
*****************************************************
"Outside of a dog, books are a man's best friend;
inside of a dog, it's too dark to read"--Groucho Marx
*****************************************************
Lennon
> Do you have a particular question in mind?
>
in a community band, I have sampled many horns, including everything the
school owns, and several horns from friends. I have never played a Conn
small bore, except for the director.
1] I have pretty much settled in on the 2B, and I was wondering how the
Whigam model is different from the standard beyond the different mouthpiece
and the lack of a counterbalance (the second of which apparently bothered
the previous owner as he actually put an old King counterbalance on it).
2] The owner of the store wants me to be seriously considering the Conn
before I buy it, and so I would like to know a little bit more about the
horn before I buy it. I am curious about if it is edgier, than a 2b, if it
has a brighter sound. The Conn is silverplated so it probably will be
brighter but not necessarily. Which one has a more focused sound. Would
one of the leadpipes make the horn useable for light symphonic work, whereas
another make it a better jazz horn.
The horn will never march. I am also a passable tuba player, so as the only
one in school I get to use it for marching.
Lennon
tuning slide, and the section of tubing between where the slide goes in and
the tuning slide opened up by a metal pipe being hammered through so I could
play, and a bad solder job reattaching the section of tubing where the
tuning slide goes into the bell section, leaving a huge brown mark that is
highly visible. Overall the horn has a great sound, but it is the schools
and will be lost in two years anyway, also a few of the resolders are of
questionable longevity. It is currently used exclusively in Jazz band,
although I have made the jump from third to lead, and I thought it was time
I get the horn that will stay with me till the end. I love my 2B but I've
only compared it to Bachs, Conn never even entered my mind to test out.
Besides no ever had a Conn avaiable for me to try. I know approximately
what the 2B sounds like, the Whigham one did seem a bit on the mellow side,
but I had just spent an hour testing out baritones and my trombone playing
is always like that after I play baritone. As both horns are under two
years old and bought by a pro who still has been unable to make up his mind
neither has seen any signifigant use. Thank you for your advice.
Actikid
band. I know if I brought that to my band, the section leader would
have a stern talk with me. Do try playing it at high volumes. I have
heard that it breaks up very easily, making it inappropriate for
settings without a mic.
Gareth Dunley
can all advise on the grounds of our own experience, but you're the man
that's got to play it!! My personal attitude is "if it feels good - do
it!"
I don't know either of the horns that well - you need to make your own
decision based on what you feel. On paper a hose-pipe should make a
pretty tidy instrument!
--
Gareth Dunley
1976 Conn 8H, 1996 Benge 165F, 2000 Michael Rath R4F
Lennon <wrb....@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:Or7g5.861$ZL5....@bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
I am closing in on the horn I want, and the store has two like new
horns
that are small bores. I am curious about the three interchangeable
lead
pipes of the Conn, and what effect they have on sound, as well as how
the
two horns compare overall. The 100H is 250 more because it is silver
plated. The 2B is model 2102L, the Jiggs Whigham model. It comes
without a
mouthpiece, but with a counterbalance, It reads H.N White company and is
apparently removable (the counterbalance did not come with the horn).
Both
horns were bought at this shop in the past two year by a professional
who
has been trying to buy a new horn. Neither one has seen much use. I
just
purchased an excellent Elkhart Baritone horn from them, with an upright
bell, and 98% intact silver plating. The valves felt great. The gold
wash
inside of the bell was almost gone, but that didn't really matter. I
will
be going on vacation in one week and the decision needs to be made by
the
day I get back. Thank you in advance for any help and advice.
Bill
Todd Overbeek
create a different sound by focusing the air differently as it comes out of
the venturi into the horn. Silver plating is pretty much irrelevant...it
doesn't change the sound appreciably, costs more, and is harder to maintain.
I view it as a negative for trombones.
The 2B is a legend...it was J.J. Johnson's horn for years.
But, why does it matter what we think? Buy whichever one works best for
you, and enjoy it!
Todd Overbeek
Kalamazoo, MI USA
sab...@mindspring.com
> I am closing in on the horn I want, and the store has two like new horns
>that are small bores. I am curious about the three interchangeable lead
>pipes of the Conn, and what effect they have on sound, as well as how the
>two horns compare overall. The 100H is 250 more because it is silver
>plated. The 2B is model 2102L, the Jiggs Whigham model. It comes without a
>mouthpiece, but with a counterbalance, It reads H.N White company and is
>apparently removable (the counterbalance did not come with the horn). Both
>horns were bought at this shop in the past two year by a professional who
>has been trying to buy a new horn. Neither one has seen much use. I just
>purchased an excellent Elkhart Baritone horn from them, with an upright
>bell, and 98% intact silver plating. The valves felt great. The gold wash
>inside of the bell was almost gone, but that didn't really matter. I will
>be going on vacation in one week and the decision needs to be made by the
>day I get back. Thank you in advance for any help and advice.
======================================
First of all...the 2B has a 7 3/8"bell, the 100H an 8". That ALONE
will make a world of difference in how they sound. Smaller bells tend
to brighten up much more quickly along the range of dynamics.
Second...the 2B+ has a .491 bore, the 100H a .500. They are both
relatively small horns, but the 2B+ is relatively smaller. Again, this
tends to produce brightness.
Third, these are both fairly lightweight and therefore bright
horns, but the 100H is silver plated, which will settle it down a
little dynamically.
The 100H has the benefit of several leadpipes...this can be done to
the 2B+ as well, but it costs money and is inconvenient.
You are, I gather, in high school. Give the 100H a good long
try...if it's built well (and Conn has gotten much better in this
regard over the past several years) it will probably be a much more
versatile instrument.
If you have the time and/or money, and are committed to buying a
horn this size, I would suggest trying a number of different horns as
well, both new and used. Regular 2Bs, especially w/the sterling silver
bell, are an amzingly good design...they've lasted relatively
unchanged since the 1930s.
3Bs are also very good. Used silver bells from the 50s and '60s are
often GREAT instruments.
Conn 6Hs and Connstellations from the '50s + '60s are also great
horns.
Yamaha is making some VERY good small bore instruments...even their
student lines play very well.
Occasionally you see a real Minick 100H for sale on ebay and
elsewhere...they are the most consistent horns I have ever tried. I've
played 4,and they've all been GREAT. They make the Conn 100Hs sound
like toys in comparison.
Earl Williams 6s are also sometimes available...another great
instrument. (Not the later ones, made by Earl's son or in Tennessee
or by Callicchio.)
I don't know what kind of prices this dealer is giving you, nor do
I know where you live, what kind of transportation is available to
you, your money needs or how soon you need the horn, but w/some
searching you might come up w/a better instrument.
You'll CERTAINLY learn something at the same time.
Otherwise...check out the 100H more thoroughly...in the long run,
unless you just sound and feel SO much better on the 2B+, it's
probably a better buy. At the very least, it will hold its vesale
value better becaise it's silver plated.
Good luck...
S.
casta...@hotmail.com
a Minnick 100H? Is there specific markings on the Minnick horns?
W@YS
Please disregard any advertising below this point!
=:-/
-----------------------------------------------------------
Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.
Up to 100 minutes free!
http://www.keen.com
sab...@mindspring.com
>How can one tell the difference between a regular Conn 100H and
>a Minnick 100H? Is there specific markings on the Minnick horns?
>
>W@YS
>
>Please disregard any advertising below this point!
>=:-/
========================
Minick doesn't say "Conn" on it.
S.
Zemry
What do you think of the Conn 4H? I own one made in 1930 and one made in 1936?
And remember....The toads march off to war at noon.
sab...@mindspring.com
===================
Great horns...biggest sounding small bore instruments I've ever
played. great design.
Not very practical in 90% of today's music, however...
S.
Michael H. Pittsley
news:398507f2...@news.mindspring.com...
> ze...@aol.com (Zemry) wrote:
>
> >Sabutin:
> > What do you think of the Conn 4H? I own one made in 1930 and one made in
1936?
> >
> >
> >And remember....The toads march off to war at noon.
>
> ===================
>
> Great horns...biggest sounding small bore instruments I've ever
> played. great design.
And good enough for Jack Teagarden. Jack played a Conn 4H on his State
Department tour of the Far East in 1958-59. Now that I think about it, I've
seen film of Jack Teagarden (the film was dated 1951) playing what appears
to be a King 2B.
sab...@mindspring.com
===================
He also played a Conn 6H, a Williams 6, and a Conn 30H, among
others (never heard of the 2B begore...), and actually carried his own
small lathe on the road to alter m'pces.
A TRUE equipment freak.
S.
Michael H. Pittsley
> >Department tour of the Far East in 1958-59. Now that I think about it,
I've
> >seen film of Jack Teagarden (the film was dated 1951) playing what
appears
> >to be a King 2B.
> >
> ===================
>
> He also played a Conn 6H, a Williams 6, and a Conn 30H, among
> others (never heard of the 2B begore...), and actually carried his own
> small lathe on the road to alter m'pces.
Very true.
In fact, I recall a conversation I had with Dave Steinmeyer about 1979 or
so. It seems that the mouthpiece he was playing at the time was actually
one of Teagarden's fabrications, or at least based on one.
Incidentally, Jack didn't care for the Reynolds that he played. When asked
what the "R" stood for, he replied, "It stands for Rotten!"
-MP
Zemry
> Great horns...biggest sounding small bore instruments I've ever
>played. great design.
>
>
> S.
I reluctantly tend to agree. I tried playing it in my big band but the other
bigger horns tend to overpower it. Everyone else plays .547 or bigger.
Actikid
> > Not very practical in 90% of today's music, however...
> >
> > S.
>
> I reluctantly tend to agree. I tried playing it in my big band but the other
> bigger horns tend to overpower it. Everyone else plays .547 or bigger.
>
start nudging your 547 gang to get with the program. I sometimes use a
547, but only on the third part and with a very bright mouthpiece.
People need to be using appropriate equipment for the music they are
playing. I wonder if anybody would say anything if the trumpets all
showed up with flugelhorns and the sax section all showed up with oboes
and English horns? 547 horns are just about as inappropriate as that,
IMHO.
Zemry
>And good enough for Jack Teagarden. Jack played a Conn 4H on his State
>Department tour of the Far East in 1958-59.
I like the sound of my Conn 4Hs. They sound well when playing solos and they
soud good in a small horn section such as one each of sax, trombone and
trumpet. However, my 4Hs do not blend in well with the larger horns preferred
by my trombone playin' brethren. Because of that fact, I now use a Getzen
Eterna in the jazz big band that I play in.
Elliott Moxley
what? Is a player who chooses to play a smaller bore horn considered a wimp? If
you can't play lead all night long on your Bach 42B with a 3G mouthpiece, does
that make you a PANSIE?? All right, I'll admit it's not only the guys - female
players that I have known can be just as critical, if not worse. If any player,
male or female, were to suggest to me that I was playing a 36B because I "couldn't
handle" a large bore horn, it would, at the very least, cross my mind to show up
with my bass the next time around!
But we all have to consider the MUSIC that we're playing - after all, that is what
we're doing, right? Not participating in a weight-lifting contest or a wrestling
match. And one more thing - I find that a small bore trombone - especially my
.460 baby King - can be more difficult to play, because it takes more control and
focus of the air stream. Anyone else find that? - Sue.
mcnamara
- I find that a small bore trombone - especially my
>.460 baby King - can be more difficult to play, because it takes more
control and
>focus of the air stream. Anyone else find that? - Sue.
I went to a .457 strait tenor because I had to, not because I wanted to. So
did the other strong players in my group (the reason for my switch, they
also needed a rotor). Of course one of them is now whining about our need
for some small bore horns.
Yes, the control on my small horns has suffered since I switched to the 42.
The notes from F on the staff on down are the hardest to play musically now
and require actual attention. The worse adjustment has been on alto though.
Everything below Bb is just blatty and flabby sounding.
D. McNamara
John Lowe
>
> So, what is it with guys and .547 bore trombones? Is it a "Macho" thing, or
> what? Is a player who chooses to play a smaller bore horn considered a wimp? If
> you can't play lead all night long on your Bach 42B with a 3G mouthpiece, does
> that make you a PANSIE?? All right, I'll admit it's not only the guys - female
> players that I have known can be just as critical, if not worse. If any player,
> male or female, were to suggest to me that I was playing a 36B because I "couldn't
> handle" a large bore horn, it would, at the very least, cross my mind to show up
> with my bass the next time around!
Ah, but then you'd find that someone else had a bass and was using a
larger mouthpiece 8-)
>
> But we all have to consider the MUSIC that we're playing - after all, that is what
> we're doing, right? Not participating in a weight-lifting contest or a wrestling
> match. And one more thing - I find that a small bore trombone - especially my
> .460 baby King - can be more difficult to play, because it takes more control and
> focus of the air stream. Anyone else find that? - Sue.
>
When I played a smaller horn (Conn 4-H), control was not a problem.
Since I've played bass almost exclusively for years, I find that playing
anything smaller than .547" (maybe .525") with any control is completely
out of the question. Then again, someone who plays a 2-B all the time
had better wear a safety harness if they try my horn, else they're
likely to fall in, and may God have mercy on them if they need to play
anything above the sixth partial or so. It's just plain old harder to
play anything at the edge of (or beyond) what one is used to.
John Lowe
Actikid
>
> So, what is it with guys and .547 bore trombones? Is it a "Macho" thing, or
> what? Is a player who chooses to play a smaller bore horn considered a wimp? If
> you can't play lead all night long on your Bach 42B with a 3G mouthpiece, does
> that make you a PANSIE?? All right, I'll admit it's not only the guys - female
> players that I have known can be just as critical, if not worse. If any player,
> male or female, were to suggest to me that I was playing a 36B because I "couldn't
> handle" a large bore horn, it would, at the very least, cross my mind to show up
> with my bass the next time around!
>
Well, all of the above I suppose, and throw in ample quantities of
ignorance and prejudice. As I understand it there are lots of
university programs where you aren't taken seriously on the "legit" side
if you don't play a .547. Likewise some jazz people look down their
noses at anything bigger than .500
There is some good rationale behind this. You can indeed get a more
robust sound with a 547 horn. If you can only afford one horn and your
chops are well developed, this is a good place to start. The logic is
that you can always tone down for settings that don't need that big
sound. I guess the problem is that most people don't adjust their
playing very well for the particular setting. And if you do, you really
may be giving up something musically. I have trouble playing a .547
horn delicately. It can be done, but it requires extra concentration.
As I've said before, we trombonists have it so easy. We have the
cheapest instrument in the band PLUS many of us try to get by on just
one all-purpose tool. Every good sax player I know has at least three
horns. Double reed players may have an assortment. The better tubists
will typically have at least 2 professional grade horns that vary
greatly in timbre (the 4/4, 6/4, etc configurations) plus some even have
several CCs plus an F. Trumpeters often have a large bore, a smaller
bore, a C and a piccolo trumpet.
Having said all that, I sense we are entering a period when those old
attitudes are changing. The Bach 36 is becoming popular again and you
are seeing the alto used more frequently.
Zemry
>start nudging your 547 gang to get with the program.
I wish that I could. But they would rebel! The first trombonist plays a King
4B. It was not at all compatible with my Conn 4H. I use my Getzen Eterna now
for the band. I absolutely REFUSE to use my Bach 42B in this band. I use the
Bach 42B in my community concert band where I play 1st part and I think that it
is too big for that setting also. However, the other 1st player...the same one
as in the jazz band uses his King 4B. He also uses his King 4B in his German
omp-pah band also. I suppose that he believes that the King 4B is an
all-purpose horn.
I really think that many amateur players cannot hear the difference in the
horn sizes or think that the differences do not really amount to much. Oh well,
can't change it...all I can do is accept it.
ke...@worldnet.att.net
>. He also uses his King 4B in his German
>omp-pah band also. I suppose that he believes that the King 4B is an
>all-purpose horn.
??? It's Not????
kent
Dale Cruse
confirm or deny your comment about the Jiggs Whigham model being appropriate
only for soft playing while using a mic, I can with all confidence say that
Jiggs isn't just a "suck up the mic"-type player. While he can and does do
that, I can tell you from standing right next to him playing in a big band
that he can easily produce a sound that will rip through any band. I doubt
that could be said for someone like John Fedchock, however (though please
bear in mind that both of these guys blow me away in terms of both their
musicality and technique). Just my $.02 worth.
Dale
--
"It stands to reason that self-righteous, inflexible, single-minded,
authoritarian true believers are politically organized. Open-minded,
flexible, complex, ambiguous, anti-authoritarian people would just as soon
be left to mind their own fucking business." - R.U. Sirius, from 'How To
Mutate and Take Over The World'
"ActiKid" <act...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:398180B0...@my-deja.com...
> Do you have a particular question in mind?
>
Lennon
several people were testing this horn and thinking about it, so for an hour
today I tested the two horns side by side and tested all three leadpipes.
The one gave me the edge, and focus I need for Jazz, and the 3 gave me the
warmth and dark sound I would use for Church and community band. This is a
very flexible instrument, and it felt light still. It was bright enough for
my needs, and it actually was a little edgier than the Whigham 2B that I
tried. The Conn took marginally more effort to play with the 3 leadpipe,
but still less than it does to get a big dark sound out of the King. The
Conn also is extremely responsive, overall I seriously prefered it over the
King. I came home with it today and I hae about 8 hours before I go on
vacation so I am going to play it as much as I can before go. It needs a
little bit of polishing but there are no scratches.
Actikid
today. I think you will be very happy with this for a long time.
Grey Antler
Congrats. I just had my 100H rebuilt after about 15 years of hard gigging --
mostly trad jazz. I love it. I'm going to New Orleans in January, and trying
to figure out how to take it as carry on luggage.
Terry Nagel
The Gypsy Wranglers
Gypsywanglers.com