That bass trombone bite
Actikid
sound has been getting way too mushy, round, dark, indeterminate, use
your favorite adjective. I find this especially true with bass trombone
in commercial settings. In particular, most bass trombone players
operating in a big band without a mic are virtually impossible to hear
98% of the time.
To me, a big part of being heard is playing with a "bite", punch , or
edgy sound. In most cases, the bass trombone and bari sax are covering
the same territory. The sax is naturally 100 times more biting than the
trombone. I have been doing a lot of equipment experiments and practice
to try to get an edge on the sound that allows the bass trombone to cut
through yet not overpower. (The reality is that bass trombone takes so
much air, you can only overpower for a few seconds before you turn blue,
so that really isn't an option.)
Long story short, I played a concert about 30 days ago. Something
interesting happened. I wasn't positive until I heard the recording of
the concert today. The week of that concert, I practiced bass
exclusively and I did a lot of deep breathing work. I thoroughly warmed
up for this program. I found that for the first 5 or 6 tunes, I really
was getting that elusive edge. The notes really snapped out (where
appropriate musically). This was the first time ever that I felt like
things were happening the right way.
What was odd was that after about the halfway point of the program, I
was unable to get that edge. It is about that same point on the
recording that you can no longer discern the bass trombone. I still had
plenty of volume, but no snap. I've been trying to think what
happened.
I really don't think it is a case of embouchure strength. I still felt
plenty strong in the chops. I'm coming to the conclusion that my air
got weaker as the program ran on. I think I didn't deliver the air as
quickly with the same force by the 7th tune. I didn't feel like I was
short of air, but it just didn't come out with the same force.
I'm wondering if anybody has any experience along these lines.
Yvonne & Norman Rowe
big band! You definitely hear the bass trombone!!
Norm
"Actikid" <acti...@netzero.net> wrote in message
news:3BA67893...@netzero.net...
Actikid
>
> You haven't heard me playing my Olds P-24G with Schilke 60 mouthpiece in a
> big band! You definitely hear the bass trombone!!
>
I'm not talking about playing loudly. If I wanted to cover up the other
parts, I'll bring in my "slide euph" dual bore slide (basically a small
tuba bore) with heavy brass bell and Yeo mouthpiece. Loud is easy.
Getting the bass voice heard without playing overly loud is the
question. The pros are able to crack through. Maybe you can do it on
an S60, but I've never heard abybody get that commercial punch out of an
S60.
My real question is more along the lines of if anybody has the
phenomenon where they can get that sharp edge, but lose it after playing
an hour or so -- while all the other elements of the sound remain
intact.
Craig
mistaking the Bass Bone parts, but by the end of the 3-4 hour gig, my brain
is mush and I've lost it by about the 2nd or so set. Maybe I'm a wimp. I'll
just blame it on my Schilke 59 because it certainly couldn't be my fault.
;-)
Craig H
"Actikid" <acti...@netzero.net> wrote in message
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Milton Brewster
says...
Not that I know a thing about this, but I've noticed something
with myself: I can change my tone slightly from bright, to
balanced, to unfocused, and I don't quite know how I do that.
When I do that; I need to be careful to play in tune. I think
what I'm doing is buzzing progressively sharp or flat and then
moving my slide slightly in or out to compensate -- a bad habit,
I think.
If I play slightly sharp but move my slide out like, a half-inch
to compensate; I get a bright, sweet sound up high and I pop out
low notes pretty good. If I buzz a little flat and move my slide
in a half-inch to compensate; then I get a mellower sound that
seems to emphasize lower overtones, and seems to blend better.
I suspect that all this would work better for me if I would just
break down and buy a couple new mouthpieces that help me to do
these things correctly. A 6-1/2 AL works well for me, but I've
probably reached a point in my development, where I need to make
the finer adjustments that slightly larger or smaller mouthpieces
would allow me to make.
milt b
Yvonne & Norman Rowe
providing a strong foundation for the other parts to stand on. When the
bass part needs punch, it's there. When the section needs a sound to build
on, it's there. Even when we're playing soft and mellow ("Here's That Rainy
Day") there's no question that the bass trombone is there, but it's in
balance with the other parts. And it's there whether it's well below the
staff or well above it. I think that's why a lot of top bass trombonists
played the Olds P-24G when it came out. It's not quite a "slide euph" as
you put it, it doesn't have the 10.5" or 11" bell (it's 9" or 9.5" I think),
but it's a great horn in all ranges and dynamic levels. I've had it for
over 24 years and am still pleased with it.
"Actikid" <acti...@netzero.net> wrote in message
news:3BA6D29D...@netzero.net...
Actikid
>
> I'm not talking about covering up the other parts, I'm talking about
> providing a strong foundation for the other parts to stand on. When the
> bass part needs punch, it's there. When the section needs a sound to build
> on, it's there. Even when we're playing soft and mellow ("Here's That Rainy
> Day") there's no question that the bass trombone is there, but it's in
> balance with the other parts. And it's there whether it's well below the
> staff or well above it. I think that's why a lot of top bass trombonists
> played the Olds P-24G when it came out. It's not quite a "slide euph" as
> you put it, it doesn't have the 10.5" or 11" bell (it's 9" or 9.5" I think),
> but it's a great horn in all ranges and dynamic levels. I've had it for
> over 24 years and am still pleased with it.
>
fellow who has a Reynolds bass from that era. There was a time that The
Olds and Reynolds lines converged I believe. That Reynolds has a really
nice commercial pop to it. I haven't checked it out carefully enough to
see what the formula is on that horn. It looks pretty heavyweight, but
I'm guessing it has considerable resistance through the slide and valve
to give some extra control on attacks.
GRIZ, Gary L. Kurbis Sr.
Maybe it wasn't you! Possibly the band's level increased, as musicians
got more aggresive.
$.02, please!
Griz
trombone is good!
Actikid
>
> Craig -
> Maybe it wasn't you! Possibly the band's level increased, as musicians
> got more aggresive.
> $.02, please!
No, it definitely was me. I definitely lost the sizzle. I put this
horn together secifically to emphasize the edge. It has a very
lightweight red brass bell that tends to go quickly from mellow to
bright as you bump up the attack. I'm thinking that as I tired, I
wasn't able to push it up the brightness ramp as forcefully. I'm pretty
sure it was my air delivery that got tired.
Carl Dershem
A trick Bill W. taught me some 25 years ago - if possible, run a mile a
day. Your air supply will improve drastically for the first month, and
then level off at better than adequate.
Of course, my knees no longer allow this, but it works!
cd
John Lowe
heavier than what's currently on the market. The rotors were somewhat
larger in diameter than those used in some other bass 'bones of the
time, so the horn actually had a bit less resistance (as compared to
contemporary horns; compared to an open-wrap with Thayer valves, it's
pretty restrictive).
The major difference between my P-24-G and the newer horns I've
inspected is that the P-24-G bell rings for quite a while when you
"plunk" it with your finger, while the newer horns have little or no
ring. I've heard fairly lucid arguments that a ringing bell takes energy
away from one's sound while a "dead" bell does not, but that fails to
alter may preference for a bell with some resonance.
As for the way the horn sounds when played, I've always felt that it was
very bright for such a large horn (though not as bright as the Olds
George Roberts model).
John Lowe
Yvonne & Norman Rowe
plant, and one from the Olds Fullerton plant. They came with large rose
brass bells, about 10" or 10.5" in diameter and played. I believe they were
the first stock double-valve bass trombones. The Olds P-24G was the first
stock inline double-valve bass trombone and came as a Bb-G-F-Eb instrument
with an optional extension to make it Bb-F-Eb-C or Bb-F-D-B.
Yes, Olds and Reynolds were part of the Norlin operation and some brass
instruments were made for both makes at the Olds plant and the other brass
instruments were made for both makes at the Reynolds plant in Abilene, TX.
I spent four years as a tour guide at the Fullerton plant (1967-71) and
watched the instruments get made. I no longer have the Fullerton Reynolds,
although it was the superior instrument. I kept the Cleveland horn because
of some special engraving that was added by the head engraver at the Olds
factory for me. The Olds P-24G is so much better than the Reynolds that I
just had no need to keep a Reynolds, but the unique nature of the older
instrument earned it a place in our storage area. Along with one of twelve
factory-made extensions for the second valve in D and the only factory-made
extension for the second valve in Eb.
Norm
"Actikid" <acti...@netzero.net> wrote in message
news:3BA8146A...@netzero.net...
Actikid
>
> I spent four years as a tour guide at the Fullerton plant (1967-71) and
> watched the instruments get made.
Very interesting. From what I've heard, that was one of those special
times and places in the history of instrument making. Was Zig Kanstul
working there in that era? Do you hear much about the Kanstul operation
today? Did many of the Olds craftspeople end up at Kanstul?
Jon Moeller
GRIZ, Gary L. Kurbis Sr.
Griz
Don't throw me a LIFE-LINE - throw me a TROMBONE
!!
http://community.webtv.net/PAPAGRIZBONE/PAPAGRIZBONE
http://community-2.webtv.net/papagriz0518/papagriz0518webtvnet/
GRIZ, Gary L. Kurbis Sr.
Yvonne & Norman Rowe
He went off to other operations for a while, then started his own factory in
Anaheim several years ago. He does have a few of the folks from the old
Olds plant, but since that was 20-some years ago, most have retired or moved
on to other things. He makes his own line of instruments (he's one of the
two major lines of bugles, and he makes trumpets, cornets, flugelhorns,
trombones, and tubas) as well as the French Bessons and instruments and/or
instrument parts (to their specs and with their brand on them) for some
other manufacturers. I understand he's starting to work on a truly
professional level euphonium as well which I'm looking forward to trying. I
visited his factory last January and had taken a tour of it about five years
ago too.
"Actikid" <acti...@netzero.net> wrote in message
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Yvonne & Norman Rowe
http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/Reef/5913/2000-0203/zig-n.html
There's also a picture of my wife, Yvonne, George Roberts, and me at
http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/Reef/5913/2000-0203/y-gr-n.html
That's three bass trombone players in a row. It just doesn't get much
better!!
"Jon Moeller" <mol...@home.com> wrote in message
news:93Ny7.118318$707.59...@news2.rdc2.tx.home.com...
Actikid
>
> There's also a picture of my wife, Yvonne, George Roberts, and me at
> http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/Reef/5913/2000-0203/y-gr-n.html
> That's three bass trombone players in a row. It just doesn't get much
> better!!
I guess it is an optical illusion, but it looks like George Roberts has
put a noose around Yvonne's neck. What, did she miss a note ot two?
That Geworge Roberts is tough. :)
Yvonne & Norman Rowe
was the only one of the three of us that played that gig. We were in the
audience. The rope in the background, you will please notice, does NOT go
around her neck. It was there for stringing up folks like you that go
accusing her of missing notes (or worse, accusing George of missing notes)!
<g>
"Actikid" <acti...@netzero.net> wrote in message
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