Tenor Horn vs. Euphonium
Milton Brewster
some music. On the other hand, a valve trombone sounds thin and
sour, and seems to be designed as a courtesy for misguided
trumpet players.
... so is there a valved brass instrument that plays in the
trombone's range, that also has a nice balanced sound?
How about a "tenor" horn? I saw a 'tenor' horn recently. It looks
like a euphonium, but it has a bore of .512 It seems to me that
this horn would sound something like a Euphonium, but it would
have some of the bright edge of a trombone -- and it might play a
bit more in tune as well. I have never heard or seen a tenor
horn, and don't know how to compare it to trombones, tromboniums,
valve trombones or euphoniums.
Does anyone here have any experience playing smaller bore Tenor
horns? How do they sound, compared to a medium bore trombone, or
a .565 bore Euphonium? How are they usually orchestrated?
milt brewster
Actikid
horn" is apparently called the "tenor horn" in the UK. But I think
those horns are conventionally in Eb or F (shorter than the tenor
trombone. However, last week a colleague was telling me about a "small
bore euphonium" that he had played when he was in a military band. I
think he said that Besson makes one. It sound like what you are
describing, but I've never seen one.
The Brasswind lists a Bb small bore euphonium with this description:
"Non-compensating euphonium with an 10" bell up 3 top action valves and
a .520 bore." Unfortunately no pictures.
Of course, this whole area treads right into the age old controversy:
baritone or euphonium? Here's a site worth reading
http://www.dwerden.com/bareuph.asp.
Some people say what separates the euph from the baritone is the bore,
but the majority opinion seems to be that it is the "degree of
conical-ness (if that is a word)" that is the main factor. The
instrument my colleague described to me followined the the conical
proportions we expect of the euphonium, but everything was scaled to a
smaller diameter.
I think you will find much more diversity of these instruments within
the British brass band environment. They make clear distinctions
between the instruments and score specifically for one or the other. I
do think it is dangerous to generalize because these valved instruments
have such a range of playing characteristics. About the only thing I
can tell they have in common is more resistance that we are accustomed
to as slide trombone players.
RPatchell
bands. They have a lighter sound than euphoniums and tend to sound (to my
ears) trombonelike (although not as trombonelike as valved trombones.) They
play parts similar to the euphoniums or sometimes back up the alto horn
section. (In England, the alto horns are also known as tenor horns and so there
is always a terminology problem.) These instruments are available in America.
Besson and Yamaha make them in several configurations (3 valve, 4 valve, etc).
Roy Patchell
John Lowe
I played a Yamaha horn of the type in a brass band back in college. It
certainly had a brighter sound than the Boosey & Hawkes euphoniums the
euph players used. I didn't use the factory mouthpiece (a Yamaha 43); if
I had, it would have sounded even brighter.
John Lowe
Les
horn held upright similar to the Euphonium and Baritone. It is pitched in E
Flat and has a slighty insipid tone in comparision to its larger brothers.
The MP is slightly larger than a Flugel Horn and it traditionally has only 3
valves. The baritone( brass bands) also has 3 valves and then the larger
Euphonium ( traditionally 4 valve.) I believe in Eurpope the Euphonium is
also called in classical orchestra's the Tenor Tuba. Its funny that music is
globally the same but we still cannot get the names and clasifications of
them standardised so we all are comparing apples with apples.
It gets more complex with the Tuba family and in brass bands the largest is
the Double B Flat Bass, then the E Flat Bass. In the USA you have the
Sousaphone which is rarely seen.]
les
"Milton Brewster" <scri...@best.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.152994be3...@nntp.best.com...
Nigel Horne
tenor horn (known as alto horn in the US and possibly Canada), baritone
(known as the tenor horn in US) and euphonium (sometimes called baritone in
the US, but also known universally as euphonium). The article isn't
finished yet so don't expect it to be comprehensive, but it should give
some clues to brass band writing and instruments.
--
Nigel Horne. Arranger, Composer, Conductor, Typesetter.
Owner of the brass band group of the Internet. ICQ#20252325
n...@bandsman.co.uk http://www.bandsman.co.uk/music.htm
Milton Brewster
njh%smsltd.de...@nospam.demon.co.uk says...
> You may all like to see www.bandsman.co.uk/writing.htm which discusses the
> tenor horn (known as alto horn in the US and possibly Canada), baritone
> (known as the tenor horn in US) and euphonium (sometimes called baritone in
> the US, but also known universally as euphonium). The article isn't
> finished yet so don't expect it to be comprehensive, but it should give
> some clues to brass band writing and instruments.
>
>
Wow. Thanks for your input. You are putting in some real work
here. I suspect I might be interested in a horn that I've never
seen in the US-- sort of a small-bore three-valve brass
instrument that duplicates the trombone's range and some of its
timbre. I don't know what I should call it, but I saw one
advertised as a tenor horn on the web. Now I am going to go read
the last part of your article.
milt brewster
Milton Brewster
says...
> I think there is some confusion here. What we in the US call the "alto
> horn" is apparently called the "tenor horn" in the UK. But I think
> those horns are conventionally in Eb or F (shorter than the tenor
> trombone. However, last week a colleague was telling me about a "small
> bore euphonium" that he had played when he was in a military band. I
> think he said that Besson makes one. It sound like what you are
> describing, but I've never seen one.
Yes. I saw one advertised as a 'tenor horn.' I guess I am wrong.
I want to write some west coast jazz pieces for a small group. I
want to write for a valved brass instrument that duplicates the
trombone's range, and I want a "cool" sound. A euphonium is just
simply too beautifully warm for this. I also want a horn that I
can enjoy fooling around with, that might have a broader
emotional range than a Euphonium.
>
> The Brasswind lists a Bb small bore euphonium with this description:
> "Non-compensating euphonium with an 10" bell up 3 top action valves and
> a .520 bore." Unfortunately no pictures.
I saw a Jupiter horn on the Giardinelli site, with a 9.5" bell
and a 5.12 bore. I don't know about the Jupiter brand, though.
I suspect that it's really an Amati.
milt
Actikid
>
> I want to write some west coast jazz pieces for a small group. I
> want to write for a valved brass instrument that duplicates the
> trombone's range, and I want a "cool" sound. A euphonium is just
> simply too beautifully warm for this. I also want a horn that I
> can enjoy fooling around with, that might have a broader
> emotional range than a Euphonium.
>
You might check out the King Flugabone ot the Kanstul or Blessing
marching trombone (look like the same instrument to me). These horns
might have more of the character you are looking for. They tend to be a
bit larger bore than conventional valve trombones. While you are at it,
maybe a marching baritone is worth a look, although those are pretty
heavy.
Sacqueboutier
> I think there is some confusion here. What we in the US call the "alto
> horn" is apparently called the "tenor horn" in the UK. But I think
> those horns are conventionally in Eb or F (shorter than the tenor
> trombone. However, last week a colleague was telling me about a "small
> bore euphonium" that he had played when he was in a military band. I
> think he said that Besson makes one. It sound like what you are
> describing, but I've never seen one.
>
Mahler wrote for the tenor horn in the 7th symphony. IIRC,
the part is in Bb, not Eb.
>
>
> Some people say what separates the euph from the baritone is the bore,
> but the majority opinion seems to be that it is the "degree of
> conical-ness
conicosity?
--
AAAAAHHHHH! The atmosphere! AAAAAAAHHHHHH!
Don Patterson
* DCP Music Printing
* Professional Computer Music Typeset
* Music Arrangements
* don...@olg.com
* Trombonist
* "The President's Own"
* United States Marine Band
Nigel Horne
> I suspect I might be interested in a horn that I've never
> seen in the US-- sort of a small-bore three-valve brass
> instrument that duplicates the trombone's range and some of its
> timbre.
Then without doubt the instrument that you want is the instrument known as
a tenor horn in the US and a baritone everywhere else. There aren't many
British style brass bands in the US, however the number is greater than
zero and I suggest a visit to www.bandsman.co.uk/bb-links.htm, selecting
"United States" from the drop down list. Make contact with the band closest
to you (which could still be a *long* way), they should be able to help by
telling you where you can get hold of such instruments in the US.
You may also like to ask in alt.music.tuba.
> milt brewster
Nigel Horne
> Mahler wrote for the tenor horn in the 7th symphony. IIRC,
> the part is in Bb, not Eb.
But Mahler was writing for a symphony orchestra not a band. I don't have a
score to hand, but it's likely he's refering to either a tenor tuba (aka
euphonium) or tenor Wagner tuba (something entirely different and mostly
found in high romantic symphony orchestras). If I had to put money on it
I'd bet he's refering to a Wagner tuba, following on from it's use in
Wagner and Bruckner works.
> Don Patterson
Neal
"Sacqueboutier" <don...@olg.com> wrote in message
news:3AC14239...@olg.com...
> Mahler wrote for the tenor horn in the 7th symphony. IIRC,
> the part is in Bb, not Eb.
I have seen parts for tenor tuba which is clearly the same in range as a
euphoneum. A large euphoneum is capable of playing tenor tuba parts well.
Tenor horn is a smaller-bored instrument, it uses a horn mouthpiece, and
I've only seen it in Bb as well.
Ross
trombone with .515" bore will set you back around $719 (lacquer) or $799
(silver). However, a true English baritone may set you back
considerably more.
Let me know if you want to hear how the Blessing sounds. I can make
some recordings and post them in .WAV or .MP3 format, provided I can
find my microphone...
You may not get a lot of "edge" when you want it from any instrument
with a bell up.
GRIZ, Gary L. Kurbis Sr.
I was surrounded by these "peck-horns", as Salvation Army musicians
refered to them! Their job in the band, seemed to be to help-out
euphoniums, on their high counter-melodies in the trios, of those great
Salvationist-Marches. Other than that, "pecking", on the up-beats, was
their major role. It took 2 rows of these horns, to make any difference
in the best Salvation "Staff-Bands", but their players all thought they
wee the "backbone" of every march!
The S.A.'s system of clef, have EVERYBODY playing Bb treble, constant
from horn to horn. So if the cornet section had poor attendance, for a
church-meeting, the director cold throw the cornet-book in front of a
"peckist" or a bonist, & have the hamony covered!
Eb tubas don't sound nice, unless you have a GANG of them either!
When I was in Jr H.S., we would swap all parts, without the S.A. band
director knowing it. We would always play, when the collection plate was
being passed. Here we were, playing, "Stand-up sand-up, for Jesus!",
with all the parts scrambled, making "inverted" harmony, with one tuba
playing the melody, while the other tuba is "pecking" up-beats! Poor old
Captain Zarphus, had no idea what we had done!
Griz
trombone is good!
Actikid
>
> I like the way a Euphonium sounds, but it is way too mellow for
> some music. On the other hand, a valve trombone sounds thin and
> sour, and seems to be designed as a courtesy for misguided
> trumpet players.
>
> ... so is there a valved brass instrument that plays in the
> trombone's range, that also has a nice balanced sound?
>
The spring/summer Brasswind catalog arrived today. It may shed a little
light on thigs.
On page 33, there are groupings of "Alto/Tenor horns", "baritones", and
a few "euphoniums". There are many more euphs on later pages, but this
is the main location for the not-quite-euphonium instruments. The
instruments they list under "alto/tenor" are all keyed in Eb. They seem
to go with .463 bore and 7-ish bell diameter. If you don't mind
transposing, that will certainly give you a scaled down sound, but it
won't be exactly in the trombone register.
They list baritones from Besson, Jupiter, and Yamaha, all with upright
bells. They all use small shank mouthpieces. Bore is .504 for Yamaha,
.512 for Jupiter, and .516 for Besson. The Jupiter is pretty basic,
targeted at schoool band for $698. The Yamaha 4-valve non-compensating
is $2395. For the person who has everything (including a truckload of
money and plenty of armstrength) there is the Besson 956GSS, which is
4-valve compensating in silverplate with a list price of $5665, call for
their retail price.
If one doesn't expect to be playing polka tuba parts on this thing, a
better choice might be the Besson 955S, which is a 3-valve compensating
system. To me that makes a lot of sense, in that the 4-valve
compensator only corrects notes that employ the 4th valve (the few notes
below the staff one plays). The 3-valve compensator works with roughly
one-fourth of the notes you play. But still that is a lot of money and
weight for something that doesn't address the more apparent intonation
problem of partials not stacking straight.
For comparison, the euphs all seem to have .560 bore or larger, with a
few in the .600+ range.
Speaking of polkas, I played in a combo a couple of weeks ago and
happened to bring along my Conn 90G trombonium (547-ish bore valve
section, large shank mp, Conn 8H bell). They called up Beerbarrel
Polka, and this thing actually did a pretty decent imitation of a tuba.
The extra thick tone of euphoniums and tubas really isn't needed (or
desirable) in a lot of settings. Less is more.
Elliott Moxley
baritone for about three years now, have been following this thread with
some interest, and have a few observations. I first became aware of the
English baritone as being a distinctly different instrument from euphonium,
after listening to a few brass band CDs, and also from a neat CD from the
Make Believe Brass on the Crystal label, which has been out about ten years
now. Make Believe Brass is a quintet that uses cornets in place of the
trumpets, and replaces the horn with a baritone. A very entertaining CD,
these guys were the "house" brass quintet at Disneyland when the CD was
made.
The Salvationist I play on is really a Besson, made for the Salvation Army
in the late fifties. The current Besson 955 seems to be its replacement,
although the 955 is a slightly larger bore instrument, at .515 if I remember
correctly, than my Salvationist at .485. The low notes, around low Bb, are
a little bit stuffy, but fortunately I don't play in that range too often.
So, here lies an interesting tale. My wife found this horn at Dillons, in
North Jersey, just about three years ago. I was looking for a cheap three
valve euphonium or bell front "baritone" to use on parades. While I love
the sound of my big Besson, it was just to heavy to carry around on
parades. I was hoping Sue would find a cheap student Yamaha or Jupiter,
that played OK, for around five hundred bucks. So, Sue comes home and tells
me I have to go to Dillons tomorrow and try this neat little horn; it looks
like an alto but it's in Bb, etc.
Well, I tried it and bought it the next day, even though it was a little
over my budget. The first two parades I used it on convinced me that it was
not even close to being a euphonium, and I haven't had it on the street
since; I've gone back to the big Besson. But I've found quite a bit of use
for the little Besson, and lately have played it almost as much as I've
played trombone.
I was subbing on trombone in a quintet, for both the trombone and the horn
player (playing trombone, later baritone) when the horn player left the
group. So, I became the faux horn player, and the baritone has worked out
well there. Not that we sound like Make Believe Brass (these guys are
good!!!), but the part is covered, and the sound is closer to a horn than a
trombone. (Now if only the trumpet players would switch to cornet-)
I've used the little Besson for shows, using it to cover horn parts. I
occasionally work for a group that never hires a horn player, but gives me
two or three books to pick and choose from. The baritone works well behind
vocals, and can be played open (and I don't own any mutes for it, BTW) where
a trombone would most likely need a mute to not bury the singer. If anyone
has played Guys and Dolls, there is a nice horn obligato in I've Never Been
In Love Before. With a trombone, I had to use a cup to maintain a good
balance with the singer, but with the baritone's different timbre and lack
of edge, I just sat back and let the horn sing, and the director loved it.
I also subbed for a friend for a week of La Mancha, done by a community
theater group. They had hired three trombone players, to cover the tenor
trombone book, the bass trombone book (a real neat book) and the bassoon
book, with a mute. I wound up with the lead and bassoon books (that week
was bad for the faux bassoon player, too) and had a ball. I managed to
cover all the real important parts, and about 95% were done on the
appropriate horn. The baritone blended well with the horns when used on the
bassoon part.
I've also used the baritone in church, sometimes on horn parts with the
quintet, but often just to provide a different sound on a trombone part.
Sorry this is getting so long, but this thread got me on to one of my
favorite topics. Out of all the instruments that I've bought, sold,
horsetraded, and otherwise collected over the years, this little English
Baritone has turned out to be the most fun to play, and has also given me a
fair bit of work.
I have seen the suggestions about some of the marching "trombones" or
"baritones", but feel that a good baritone would be a better choice. I
owned (and sold) one of the Olds 0-21 marching trombones, and have tried the
King Flugabone, as well. I also had a 3B valve trombone for years. None
of them had a real trombone good sound, and were all bit stuffy sounding.
The English baritone does not sound like a trombone, but more like a horn.
It does not have the "fatness" of a
euphonium, either.
A word of caution or advice, if I may. (If anyone is still reading-) One
of my pet peeves for years has been the trombone player that learns his
fingerings and picks up a baritone or euphonium, and treats the instrument
like a big bore valve trombone that he can blow into until the seems
split. Wrong!! That's not the way to play a conical bore instrument.
When I switch to baritone or euphonium, I make a mental adjustment and think
more like a horn player than a trombonist. And out of all the instruments I
play, switching to baritone, most likely because of the bore, requires the
most concentration at first. 6H to 72H, 78H to euphonium, no problem,
almost do it in my sleep.
Any trombone or euphonium to baritone- wake up first.
As far as availability in this country, Besson and Yamaha both have
baritones in their lineup; there may be others. Here in NJ, Steve Dillon
has new Bessons, should have new Yamahas, and usually has a used
Salvationist in stock; he had one there a few weeks ago.
www.Dillonmusic.com should get you there. Brasswinds also has Besson and
Yamaha, and I think Amati makes a baritone.
(Anyone still there?) I hope I've given some ideas or insight on the
instrument. Once I got squeezed down into the small bore of my particular
horn, and the newer ones are bigger, I fell in love with it, and admit to
looking for places where it may be more appropriate to use than a trombone.
But I will confess, and I hope this statement does not come back to haunt
me, that after playing low brass for almost forty years, I still don't know
if I'm a trombone player, a euphonium player or now a baritone player. I
enjoy playing them all-
Y'all can wake up now-
Elliott
Dafydd y garreg wen
writes
>> Some people say what separates the euph from the baritone is the bore,
>> but the majority opinion seems to be that it is the "degree of
>> conical-ness
>
>conicosity?
Conicicity? (like cylindricity)
Dave
Sacqueboutier
> Sacqueboutier wrote:
>
> > Mahler wrote for the tenor horn in the 7th symphony. IIRC,
> > the part is in Bb, not Eb.
>
> But Mahler was writing for a symphony orchestra not a band. I don't have a
> score to hand, but it's likely he's refering to either a tenor tuba (aka
> euphonium) or tenor Wagner tuba (something entirely different and mostly
> found in high romantic symphony orchestras). If I had to put money on it
> I'd bet he's refering to a Wagner tuba, following on from it's use in
> Wagner and Bruckner works.
My point was not to discount your post, but to point out
that, in Germany, it seems that a tenor horn is in Bb.
You are certainly more knowledgeable in brass band
nomenclature than I.
I think that the real difference, like that between
tenor and bass trombones, is the bore size. Instruments
of the Bb variety can be called tenor horn, tenor tuba,
euphonium, baritone, or trombonium...depending on the
bore size and the rate at which the bore becomes conical.
If the Eb alto horn is called a tenor horn in the British
brass band, fine. It differentiates between that and the
Bb baritone, which is of smaller bore than the Bb euphonium.
GRIZ, Gary L. Kurbis Sr.
Henery Filmore, & other American composers, we would find strict
differences, in the job of the baritone vs. euphonium, as much as cornet
vs. trumpet.
Even when I was in H.S., a player wouldn't show up with a trumpet, with
intentions of playing 1st cornet!
Modern bands in the U.S., anyway, don't seem to make this distinction,
anymore!
I don't even kow if Sousa's band even used French-horns. I do know that
Salvationists didn't.
If my H.S. band director wanted to hear "brasses-only", for
rehearsal-purposes, The French-horn section would not even raise their
horns, because they weren't really considered "brasses".
& you are right, Elliot! The euphoniums are today's most overblown, but
underplayed instrument in the band, lately! The mouthpieces were even
smaller, 30 years ago! They were never meant to be powered by a trombone
mouthpiece, simply because their shanks were the same size!
Plus, today's American band directors, insist on calling euphoniums,
"baritones"! Today's band composers place the euphonium's voice, an
octave over the tubas, forgetting the BEAUTIFUL strains that used to
sing, sweetly above the trombones! Now they're considered the
instrument, along with tubas, for fallen trumpeters, or students with
seemingly, no talent! THIS JUST GALLS OLD GRIZ!
"Band directors are not the brightest human-form on this planet!", I
keep telling my students' parents!
Paul Bridson
Yamaha - believe it or not, was heavily promoting
brass band formation and manufacturing a line of horns proper to the genre.
Maybe check with your local Yamaha distr. and see
if that still exists.
Sacqueboutier
> I think if we dig up original drafts of marches by Sousa, Goldman, Uncle
> Henery Filmore, & other American composers, we would find strict
> differences, in the job of the baritone vs. euphonium, as much as cornet
> vs. trumpet.
In the Marine Band, we usually play the earliest edition
of these marches that we have. As far as I know, there
is only one baritone part.
Now, Holst and Grainger used both and they usually gave the
nice solo lines to the baritone (in treble clef).
Our players play them on euphonium.
>
> Even when I was in H.S., a player wouldn't show up with a trumpet, with
> intentions of playing 1st cornet!
> Modern bands in the U.S., anyway, don't seem to make this distinction,
> anymore!
Marine Band does (but less so than ten years ago).
>
> I don't even kow if Sousa's band even used French-horns. I do know that
> Salvationists didn't.
Yes, Sousa's band did use French horns. When they played a march
that had parts for horn in Eb, they did what our horn players do,
they transposed.
>
> "Band directors are not the brightest human-form on this planet!", I
> keep telling my students' parents!
I used to be one.
Peter Mansfield
PAPAGR...@webtv.net ("GRIZ", Gary L. Kurbis Sr.) wrote:
> I think if we dig up original drafts of marches by Sousa, Goldman, Uncle
> Henery Filmore, & other American composers, we would find strict
> differences, in the job of the baritone vs. euphonium, as much as cornet
> vs. trumpet.
In terns of family relationship its actually:
trumpet / trombone
cornet/ baritone (ie tenor saxhorn)
flugel / euphonium
--
Peter Mansfield
John Fletcher used to make it sound ok
--
Nigel Horne
>> Eb tubas don't sound nice, unless you have a GANG of them either!
>
>
> John Fletcher used to make it sound ok
I don't recall that Steve Sykes has much difficulty either
Elliott Moxley
Peter Mansfield wrote:
> In terns of family relationship its actually:
>
> trumpet / trombone
>
> cornet/ baritone (ie tenor saxhorn)
>
> flugel / euphonium
> --
Glad you put this relationship in print. Some years ago, I borrowed a copy of
The Brass Players Anthology (?), published by the Instrumentalist magazine,
which had a long article on bore proportions. As I remember it, the trumpet
and trombone were 2/3 cylindrical, then 1/3 conical at the bell end. The
cornet and baritone were described as 1/2 cylindrical and 1/2 conical, and the
flugels, euphoniums (and tubas!) were 1/3 cylindrical and 2/3 conical. Of
course these proportions were approximate and I'm sure there were variations
from manufacturer to manufacturer.
Does anyone else remember this article, or even have it? Just wondering if I
remembered it correctly?
Not to pick on band directors and conductors, (and contractors), but I wish
that some of them would get up to date and stop calling euphoniums
"baritones." Just an old habit, I guess. And then there are the guys that
see a trigger and think "Wow, a Bass Trombone, have this guy play third!" A
3-B with a trigger is not a bass-
Elliott Moxley
GRIZ, Gary L. Kurbis Sr.
I hadn't heard of these Celebraties!
At that time, in my life, I'd only heard "down & out" players, playing
Eb tubas, with BULLET-HOLES in them! Salvationists let them play,
anyway! They walked through neighborhoods, carrying Eb tubas, where you
could get blown-away, for a QUARTER (of a U.S. dollar)!
I do give cheerfully, to the RED-BUCKET!
Dave Molter
about tenor horns, baritones, saxhorns and more from reading books and
Internet since I joined a brass band in 1999.
What has traditionally been called a baritone horn in America is in
reality a small bore euphonium (which is sometimes called a tenor tuba).
This applies to both bell front and bell up horns. What the British
call a baritone horn takes its name from the voice it took in the line
of valved instruments called saxhorns because they were invented by
Adolphe Sax -- the man who also invented this saxophone. Sax's family of
horns covered the entire spectrum, from Eb soprano and Eb tenor, through
Bb tenor and Baritone, to Eb and BBb bass.
Saxhorns in the traditional British brass band go from a small horn
pitched in Eb to the BBb bass. The Eb "tenor horn" as it is referred to
in British brass bands such as the Black Dyke Mills Band has been and is
still called an alto horn on this side of the Atlantic. They used to be
quite common in high school bands in the 50s and 60s but are scarce
these days.
The British baritone in these bands has a bore between the alto horn and
euphonium. It is played with a small shank trombone mouthpiece and
doesn't have quite the sonority of the euphonium.
I play in The Allegheny Brass Band (http://trfn.clpgh.org/abb), which
takes its instrumentation from the British tradition: Three Eb tenor
horns, most played by French horn players who use the French horn
mouthpiece. The instrument can be played with the traditional cup shaped
mouthpiece, however. Next come two British baritones, then two
euphoniums. The "saxhorn" tradition then skips to the basses (tubas),
where we have 2 Eb, 2 BBb. On the opposite side of the tenor horns is a
lone flugelhorn and to his right, 9 cornets and a single Eb trumpet
(traditional British bands use an Eb cornet). Some brass bands, noting
that the tenor horn can be difficult to play and, even when played well,
can still sound lousy, have replaced them with French horns. Yamaha and
Besson make British baritones in both compensating and non-compensating
and 3- or 4-valve a varieties. There are other manufacturers as well.
British brass band music is written for the most part in Bb treble clef,
including the 1st and 2nd trombones. The bass trombone is the lone
instrument to read bass clef. The thinking behind this, with the
valved instruments, was to allow players to switch between instruments
without having to learn different fingerings. I'm not sure why the
tenor trombones followed suit, but it's relatively easy to read Bb
treble clef with some practice. After about a week, it becomes 2nd
nature. When the original brass bands were funded, the G bass trombone
was the norm, but most bands now use single or dual-valve instruments
pitched in Bb without the valves.
Military brass bands during the American Civil War also used saxhorns
(with exception of cornets), often in a matched set because there was no
single tuning standard at the time and horns from different
manufacturers could have been tuned to a different pitch. The horns also
usually did NOT have spitvalves. Some of the horns used piston valves,
some rotary. One variety of saxhorn has bells that faced backward, thus
getting the name OTS saxhorns -- Over The Shoulder. In American brass
bands, the tenor range instruments -- called tenor horns -- took the
trombone part and read bass clef. I believe the Eb bass was the
standard, although BBb saxhorns were made. Saxhorns have a very mellow
sound and can be easily overblown. Today there are several Civil War
re-enactor bands that use period brass instruments and rope tension
drums, including the Wildcat Regiment Band from Indiana, Pa.
(www.wildcatband.com). The bands were not limited to martial music and
in a fact did operatic and other classical music. Valve and slide
trombones gradually replaced the Bb tenor horn and the remaining horn --
the Bb baritone -- soon gave its name to any horn that looked like it.
Only the largest bore horns --or the double belled models -- were called
euphoniums.
For a nice overview of the American brass band movement and pictures and
descriptions of the instruments used, visit
http://rs6.loc.gov/ammem/cwmhtml/cwmpres01.html
If I've misstated anything or left anything out, forgive me, but this is
accurate to the best of my knowledge.
Dave Molter
Pittsburgh, PA
John Lowe
On the use of treble clef B-flat - I've seen treble clef B-flat parts in
some late 18th/early 19th century marches. The practice of writing them
that way in brass band literature may stem from the same source. At any
rate, any serious 'bone player should be able to read tenor clef, and
the transition from that to B-flat treble is quite easy.
One clarification: IIRC, the parts for the E-flat instruments (cornet,
tenor horn, and tuba) are written in E-flat treble.
John Lowe
Dafydd y garreg wen
Pretty much right, but there's a few points that need addressing...
In article <3AC68A82...@earthlink.net>, Dave Molter
<king...@earthlink.net> writes
>Getting in late on the discussion, but ... here's what I have learned
>about tenor horns, baritones, saxhorns and more from reading books and
>Internet since I joined a brass band in 1999.
>
>What has traditionally been called a baritone horn in America is in
>reality a small bore euphonium (which is sometimes called a tenor tuba).
>This applies to both bell front and bell up horns. What the British
>call a baritone horn takes its name from the voice it took in the line
>of valved instruments called saxhorns because they were invented by
>Adolphe Sax -- the man who also invented this saxophone. Sax's family of
>horns covered the entire spectrum, from Eb soprano and Eb tenor, through
>Bb tenor and Baritone, to Eb and BBb bass.
Where the conical taper to the bell begins is also different - the
Euphonium is approx. 1/3 cylindrical, 2/3 conical; the baritone is 1/2
and 1/2. I understand that this is a slight simplification, but it's not
bad.
>
> Saxhorns in the traditional British brass band go from a small horn
>pitched in Eb to the BBb bass.
The Tubas (both Eb and BBb) in the brass band are the same as the
Euphonium (1/3 + 2/3) (and the Flugel for that matter). They're all
members of the Tuba family. Soprano (Eb) Cornet, Bb Cornets, Eb Horns
and Bb Baritones are all Saxhorns effectively (1/2 + 1/2). The Trombones
are (2/3 + 1/3) - members of the Trumpet family.
> The Eb "tenor horn" as it is referred to
>in British brass bands such as the Black Dyke Mills Band has been and is
>still called an alto horn on this side of the Atlantic. They used to be
>quite common in high school bands in the 50s and 60s but are scarce
>these days.
>The British baritone in these bands has a bore between the alto horn and
>euphonium. It is played with a small shank trombone mouthpiece and
>doesn't have quite the sonority of the euphonium.
Providing a valuable tonal counterpoint to the heavier Euph tone.
>
>I play in The Allegheny Brass Band (http://trfn.clpgh.org/abb), which
>takes its instrumentation from the British tradition: Three Eb tenor
>horns, most played by French horn players who use the French horn
>mouthpiece.
This alters the sound a bit - not that much though.
> The instrument can be played with the traditional cup shaped
>mouthpiece, however. Next come two British baritones, then two
>euphoniums. The "saxhorn" tradition then skips to the basses (tubas),
>where we have 2 Eb, 2 BBb.
Not quite - see my comments above.
>On the opposite side of the tenor horns is a
>lone flugelhorn and to his right, 9 cornets and a single Eb trumpet
>(traditional British bands use an Eb cornet).
Does your band find trouble balancing this combination? There was a fad
among British bands some 30 or so years ago I believe for an Eb Trumpet
to replace the Eb Cornet. The end judgement was that the sound was too,
well, Trumpety, and didn't blend appropriately with the rest of the
section.
> Some brass bands, noting
>that the tenor horn can be difficult to play and, even when played well,
>can still sound lousy, have replaced them with French horns.
Not half as difficult to play well as the French Horn! If they sound
lousy when 'played well', then perhaps they are not being played well?
French Horns also alter the band sound significantly - okay, there's no
almighty statute which says 'And the brass band shalt have x saxhorns in
Alto Eb, etc..', but the strength and uniqueness of a brass band's sound
lies in it's homogeneity, tempered when required by the edge of the
Trombones (a hideous generalisation, I know) - replacing the homogeneous
alto sound with a different sound wrecks this. Maybe _adding_ an extra
French Horn section to a band has a future (there's plenty of tenor/bass
sound besides the similarly inhomogeneous Trombones), but replacing Eb
Tenor Horns with French Horns seems to me to be playing to one's
weaknesses - however good your Horn players are.
> Yamaha and
>Besson make British baritones in both compensating and non-compensating
>and 3- or 4-valve a varieties. There are other manufacturers as well.
If anyone's buying one - don't bother with the 4-valve varieties. No
music calls for notes that can't be played with 3 (although now 4 are
available, what's the betting that some clever test-piece writer will
think it a good idea?), and they are simply impossible to hold
comfortably! The 3-valve compensators are the best bets, in my opinion.
>
>British brass band music is written for the most part in Bb treble clef,
>including the 1st and 2nd trombones. The bass trombone is the lone
>instrument to read bass clef. The thinking behind this, with the
>valved instruments, was to allow players to switch between instruments
>without having to learn different fingerings. I'm not sure why the
>tenor trombones followed suit, but it's relatively easy to read Bb
>treble clef with some practice.
Most brass band music up to about WW2 had tenor clef tenor trombone
parts. During the 40s and 50s the switch was made to Bb transposing
treble clef. I've generally assumed that, while it made sense to try to
entice current Trombone players into bands (2nd half of the 19th
century), and teach other instruments from scratch, it was finally
realised that 1) Tenor clef and Bb Treble clef are pretty much
congruent, and 2) It made sense to train Trombonists from scratch
too/convert existing players (Baritones/Euphoniums/etc..) to Trombone.
I've never seen Alto clef in the brass band literature.
>After about a week, it becomes 2nd
>nature. When the original brass bands were funded, the G bass trombone
>was the norm, but most bands now use single or dual-valve instruments
>pitched in Bb without the valves.
After the last few years of generous lottery grants for full sets of
instruments, most all serious bands (the top several hundred in Britain)
have dual valve Bass instruments. Whether they have players worthy of
them is another matter!
Dave
Dafydd y garreg wen
<jlo...@pacbell.com> writes
>Excellent information!
>
>On the use of treble clef B-flat - I've seen treble clef B-flat parts in
>some late 18th/early 19th century marches.
On Trombone parts?
> The practice of writing them
>that way in brass band literature may stem from the same source.
Brass band Trombone parts weren't in treble clef until the mid 20th
century. Maybe the practice of writing the other instruments in treble
clef came from this - maybe the idea was to follow the woodwind's
system, given the familial nature of the instruments?
> At any
>rate, any serious 'bone player should be able to read tenor clef, and
>the transition from that to B-flat treble is quite easy.
>
>One clarification: IIRC, the parts for the E-flat instruments (cornet,
>tenor horn, and tuba) are written in E-flat treble.
Yes.
Dave
Dave Molter
> >On the opposite side of the tenor horns is a
> >lone flugelhorn and to his right, 9 cornets and a single Eb trumpet
> >(traditional British bands use an Eb cornet).
>
> Does your band find trouble balancing this combination? There was a fad among British bands some 30 or so years ago I believe for an Eb Trumpet to replace the Eb Cornet. The end judgement was that the sound was too, well, Trumpety, and didn't blend appropriately with the rest of the section.
>>The prevailing logic with the people who play the Eb chair in our band
is that the Eb cornet -- at least the one we have -- is hard to play. So
they switched to an Eb trumpet. I believe that to compete in Britain,
though, you must have an Eb cornet. As for balance, I've never heard the
cornet played in our band, so I can't say. River City Brass Band, in
Pittsburgh, (www.rcbb.com) also uses a soprano trumpet and has replaced
the tenor horn with French horns. They make no pretensions about being a
"true" Brisths brass band though, although they do use the British
baritones and the lineup is otherwise the same.You're on to something
about the tenor horns not being played well. I think it's simply because
they are so uncommon over here. We had two in my high school band in the
late 60s. Since then, I think most marchingb bands have convertred to
mellophoniums. Grimethorpe Colliery Band has the best tenor horn section
I've heard. They actually swing!
Dave Molter
> `
John Lowe
>
> >
> >some late 18th/early 19th century marches.
>
> On Trombone parts?
>
Edwin Franko Goldman; the edition my band has (march size) originally
had both bass clef and treble clef parts for the 1st and 2nd trombone.
It sticks in my mind because someone had lost the BC 1st 'bone part and
one of the guys on the part couldn't read tenor clef, so I had to
transpose it for him.
Interestingly, we just got in several new pieces that have what are
marked as "World" parts - tuba in B-flat treble, trombone in B-flat
treble, and horn in E-flat.
SNIP
John Lowe
Dafydd y garreg wen
<jlo...@pacbell.com> writes
>Dafydd y garreg wen wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >On the use of treble clef B-flat - I've seen treble clef B-flat parts in
>> >some late 18th/early 19th century marches.
>>
>> On Trombone parts?
>>
>The only one that comes to mind immediately is "Chimes of Liberty" by
>Edwin Franko Goldman; the edition my band has (march size) originally
>had both bass clef and treble clef parts for the 1st and 2nd trombone.
>It sticks in my mind because someone had lost the BC 1st 'bone part and
>one of the guys on the part couldn't read tenor clef, so I had to
>transpose it for him.
Excuse me if this is a rude/patronising question to ask, but do you mean
'late 19th/early 20th century' marches?
That would put rather a different complexion on it!
Dave
John Lowe
Actually, on further research, I found that "Chimes of Liberty" was
composed (or at least first performed) in 1937. Not exactly "early" 20th
century, I'll admit. OTOH, I'm pretty sure I've seen some Fillmore and
King marches that also had treble clef B-flat trombone parts (though,
like "Chimes", they also had bass clef parts).
John Lowe
Dafydd y garreg wen
<king...@earthlink.net> writes
>Dafydd y garreg wen wrote:
>
>> >On the opposite side of the tenor horns is a
>> >lone flugelhorn and to his right, 9 cornets and a single Eb trumpet
>> >(traditional British bands use an Eb cornet).
>>
>> Does your band find trouble balancing this combination? There was a fad among
>British bands some 30 or so years ago I believe for an Eb Trumpet to replace
>the Eb Cornet. The end judgement was that the sound was too, well, Trumpety, and
>didn't blend appropriately with the rest of the section.
>
>>>The prevailing logic with the people who play the Eb chair in our band
>is that the Eb cornet -- at least the one we have -- is hard to play. So
>they switched to an Eb trumpet. I believe that to compete in Britain,
>though, you must have an Eb cornet.
Yes - well, at a level above the lowest anyway I think; once something
new of this sort has been tried out once in a contest, the organisers
have a tendency to make new legislation to ban it in future.
> As for balance, I've never heard the
>cornet played in our band, so I can't say. River City Brass Band, in
>Pittsburgh, (www.rcbb.com) also uses a soprano trumpet and has replaced
>the tenor horn with French horns. They make no pretensions about being a
>"true" Brisths brass band though, although they do use the British
>baritones and the lineup is otherwise the same.
This does seem an odd way to do things, as I outlined before. No matter
how good they are (and I understand that the RCBB are pretty good), this
is to undermine one of the strongest assets of the brass band.
>You're on to something
>about the tenor horns not being played well. I think it's simply because
>they are so uncommon over here. We had two in my high school band in the
>late 60s. Since then, I think most marchingb bands have convertred to
>mellophoniums. Grimethorpe Colliery Band has the best tenor horn section
>I've heard. They actually swing!
No way! :-) A brass band that can actually swing??
The Championship section test-piece just recently for this year was
'Jazz' by Philip Wilby, which contained an extensive swing section. Some
of the lamer efforts were quite superb - it's a cliché, but brass bands
(in general) really do have no clue as to how to swing.
Dave
Dafydd y garreg wen
<jlo...@pacbell.com> writes
>No apology necessary; I most certainly "misspoke".
>
>Actually, on further research, I found that "Chimes of Liberty" was
>composed (or at least first performed) in 1937. Not exactly "early" 20th
>century, I'll admit. OTOH, I'm pretty sure I've seen some Fillmore and
>King marches that also had treble clef B-flat trombone parts (though,
>like "Chimes", they also had bass clef parts).
That makes the genesis of the idea a bit less clear, I think - brass
band parts (not trombones) were in transposing treble clef (generally -
the early instrumentation wasn't at all standardised) from the mid 19th
century. That would indicate to me that the idea might well have spread
to these march-writers from the brass band tradition; it's still the
earliest American stuff I've come across in treble like this.
Dave
>
>John Lowe
>
>Dafydd y garreg wen wrote:
>>
>> In article <3AC7C678...@pacbell.com>, John Lowe
>> <jlo...@pacbell.com> writes
>> >Dafydd y garreg wen wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >On the use of treble clef B-flat - I've seen treble clef B-flat parts in
>> >> >some late 18th/early 19th century marches.
>> >>
>> >> On Trombone parts?
>> >>
>> >The only one that comes to mind immediately is "Chimes of Liberty" by
>> >Edwin Franko Goldman; the edition my band has (march size) originally
>> >had both bass clef and treble clef parts for the 1st and 2nd trombone.
>> >It sticks in my mind because someone had lost the BC 1st 'bone part and
>> >one of the guys on the part couldn't read tenor clef, so I had to
>> >transpose it for him.
>>
>> Excuse me if this is a rude/patronising question to ask, but do you mean
>> 'late 19th/early 20th century' marches?
>> That would put rather a different complexion on it!
>>
>> Dave
--
Dafydd y garreg wen