Lateralus vs. Aenima vs. Undertow etc.
nathan
wrong!
Do most people here think that Aenima is a better album than Lateralus? Me
personally, I like Lateralus the most, i wont get into that now though, but
I think that I like them the most because that was the first cd of theirs i
really 'got into'. As such I have a strong emotion connection with this cd,
for many reasons, but mostly because it opened up an entirely new world to
me (and I'm studying Neuroscience now, practically because of it!).
So for the people who like one more than another, does the fact that it was
your first real Tool experience have anything to do with it?
Like I said, I'd love to know if your experience is different to mine,
later people
N
Li Han
"nathan" <little...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:7oJtb.869$Qk3....@nnrp1.ozemail.com.au...
I got into Opiate first, Undertow second, Aenima third, Lateralus last.
I like Aenima best, then Undertow, then opiate. Lateralus is a stain on my
consciousness that I'd like to get removed.
Mark Shea
The first song I heard was Aenema; at the time I was listening to Black and
previous era Metallica, with highlight packages of the later albums. It
attracted me intensely with its energy and mysteriously rythmic, yet
progressive, dynamic.
The second song I heard was Lateralus. I thought it was great. Just
unbelievably great; like Aenema but times ten.
Since then I have formed the following opinions:
I like the albums/releases in this order: Lateralus first, Salival second,
Aenima third, Opiate fourth, and Undertow last. This is not to say I don't
like Undertow. Salival's at second, despite the fairly low amount of play
time I give it, because of the absolutely devastatating way Third Eye and
Pushit hit me.
My opinions of the albums specifically? Bearing in mind these are my
personal readings of the material...
Aenima, to me, is a concept album. It consists, broadly, of a homeopathic
cleansing of anger and rage. In the detail, it's a homeopathic cleansing of
what could be argued are purely selfish emotions, or at least emotions that
are active for selfish reasons, with no outward view at all. It ends,
brilliantly, with 'Fuck you if you don't hold this ideal' in Aenema, and and
even more stunning expression of agonising frustration at failure to achieve
the self-set task of cleansing, at gaining that new view of reality.
Many people view Lateralus as a step beyond this; I agree up to a point. If
you'll forgive the pun, this is a step to the side. It's an expression of
the dream and hope of rebirth beyond selfishness, of the ideas about what it
must be like. There is of course still the frustration that was exhibited in
Aenima, but little of the anger. There is now a calmer, almost introspective
examination of a problem that faces the uniquely human part of humanity. And
in that curious contradiction that seems to happen, introspection tends to
lead itself to a centre from which the world is viewed outwards.
Salival seemed to me to be about re-examination; the step, if you like,
between Aenima and Lateralus. There is an air of hesitancy here, and a
return to see if the past steps still have new possibilities if considered
from a different frame of reference. Hence we have the devastating
reinterpretation of Third Eye, Part of Me and Pushit. There's a dramatic
pause, and then an even older look at roots. We hear covers, of a pair of
bands that I assume Tool thought were pretty cool; and wisely so in my
opinion. You Lied rocks, and who doesn't need to be told that Led Zeppelin
are in the top four or five bands ever? Then we have the dark little dry
humour of LAMC, and the way Maynard's Dick is written suggests to me that it
was something that the four of them made up vaguely while lying around
bored; right at the roots of musical endeavour, eh?
(Two other side points on Salival: for me it marks the emergence of the
second-generation Maynard vocal style. There seems to me to be about an
extra tonne of body and richness, combined with a definite effort to be more
inventive and insistent about melody. The second is that I have a strong
suspicion that the songs that were repainted were done in accordance with an
effort to bring Justin into Pushit and Part of Me more intimately. That is,
if my memory's fine and Pushit was written with Paul.)
Undertow seemed to me an exposition of pain from as many points of view as
they could muster. In many respects I think it's the most simplistic of
their work. Yeah, its pretty good, but its not Aenima or Lateralus. One
exception is the lyrics; they're an awesome effort. I don't think Maynard
was at his vocal peak yet, but his writing talent is just unreal from here
on in.
Opiate is like 'a brief guide to the thoughts and ideas of Tool.' It's
almost like a fast-forward through the ideas that Tool have become famous
for, and not quite the ones that are so intensely expressed in the last two
albums. This is a slightly more militant Tool, perhaps one experimenting
with how comforatable they are with dealing with 'superstructure' issues.
Otherwise Tool seem intent on a kind of personal politics; politics *yes*,
but not the kind of politics people usually mean. They seem intent on the
point of view people have when they open their eyes. The ideas in Opiate are
not so fundamental, but the album's a great deal of fun.
Dammit. I only meant to come on here for five minutes.
Mark Shea
Vin
what is with you peoples obsession to grade the albums in some order?
how about this: 'they're both different perfect amazing albums, TIE.'
the end.
lapzirdonocomad
wait...wait...you like the gaping lotus experience more than reflection?
wow...
jeremy
--
http://www.morealivedeadthanyoulleverbealive.com
Sébastien Poitras
I totally agree with what you say about loving better what you first hear
from a band, probably because the band's identity in your mind is related to
that. How often was I disappointed by the second cd I heard from one of my
favorite bands? But in the case of Tool, it didn't happen that way. I heard
Undertow in 93, and I clearly remember fearing that the next Tool record
would suck when it was about to come out. But Aenima totally blew me away,
and it's still my favorite Tool cd. As a general rule, I'd say which album
you heard first, and which songs you heard live at a great show, greatly
influence how you appreciate a band.
Sebastien
jeldrid
both? only two albums?
Anyway... Most people seem unable to make a distinction between these two
perspectives:
1) I think X is a better album.
2) I like X more than their other albums because it better suits my own
personal tastes.
This post falls somewhere in between. Either way, here's my response to
each idea:
1) You're wrong. Shut the fuck up.
2) Nobody cares. Shut the fuck up.
sQuid
I wouldnt say one is actually *better* than the other. I just happen to like
Aenima more.
sQuid
"Theirs would have been a loneliness we cannot imagine, the loneliness of gods
looking out across infinity and finding none to share their thoughts."
sQuid
>perspectives:
>
>1) I think X is a better album.
Theres nothing wrong with saying *I think* X album is better because you're
presenting it as your opinion and not a universal fact.
nathan
"Vin" <i...@hate.rain> wrote in message
news:xoLtb.35$ZF1....@news20.bellglobal.com...
All I was asking for was peoples internal states relative to their opinions
on each album. You can't help but catorgerise (?) things. Yes, they are both
different perfect amazing albums, but surely you like one just a little more
than the other!? You can't help but do it. It's the game playing ego in all
of us. Unless you are a fully enlightened buddha, or you are lying to your
self!
Which is it?
Agent Orange
>>> it was your first real Tool experience have anything to do with it?
Me, I love Ćnima and Lateralus equally. Ćnima was my first Tool experience.
I do like Opiate and Undertow, but not as much. It's just not where my mindset
is. I don't feel that they're as creative as the latter two.
- Agent Orange
forward, he cried
from the rear
and the front rank died
and the general sat
and the lines on the map
moved from side to side
- p i n k f l o y d
Joseph Lambert
>I do like Opiate and Undertow, but not as much. It's just not where my
>mindset
>is. I don't feel that they're as creative as the latter two.
I agree. I never understand people that think Opiate/Undertow hold a
candle to Aenima or Lateralus.
Opiate is a small collection of half baked ideas, while Undertow
represents a first shot at concept album creation. It doesn't flow nearly as
well as Lateralus or Aenima.
Joe
"Why do we drive on a parkway, yet park on a driveway"?
Nathan Gilbert
<little...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Which tool album is my favorite? Whichever one is in my CD player at
the moment. What's my favorite tool song? Whichever one is playing...
"Fortune always leaves some doors open."
Delta5Qmp
>candle to Aenima or Lateralus.
> Opiate is a small collection of half baked ideas, while Undertow
>represents a first shot at concept album creation. It doesn't flow nearly as
>well as Lateralus or Aenima.
Heres why i think Opiate/Undertow holds a candle to aenima and lateralus:
Opiate, though clearly not a full rounded release plays like exactly what it
is, their early best. Undertow plays like the slightly more refined songs of
the same era- It does have dramaturgical flow, order, and timing, and it even
has a mild addition of conceptual unity. Its my favorite tool release because
i just plain like their old sound better, Opiate sligtly more than Undertow,
but both more than A&L.
As for A&L (and salival to smoe extent), The progression of their sound is
very clear. Its better (in that music school way), more mature, and
thematically evolved. The content and order have major discrepencies though-
Lateralus has the kind of concept and layout that one would expect after
Undertow (more), but Salival has none and Aenima is as haphazard as a movie
soundtrack, the songs have no subtextual lyrical similarity to each other, No
progression through the album, and no sense of flow whatsoever. This is
intentional in my opinion and makes it a far more interesting sophomore effort
than most. Aenima is the rough hard sibling, Lateralus the child prodigy.
Undertow remains the original core of Tool's genisis, Opiate is the creme de la
creme, presented as the harbinger of things to come. Salival is the stuff they
couldnt cram in elsewhere- save maynards dick which fucks up my entire theory
because it sounds like it was made for opiate...
Frankly, they dont have a single song i dont love, and the cds that hold
them are trivial.
Vin
>on each album. You can't help but catorgerise (?) things. Yes, they are both
>different perfect amazing albums, but surely you like one just a little more
>than the other!? You can't help but do it. It's the game playing ego in all
>of us. Unless you are a fully enlightened buddha, or you are lying to your
>self!
>
>Which is it?
no i really don't prefer one over the other, i think they're equally perfect.
Justin
lateralus: Opiate, though clearly not a full rounded release plays like
exactly what it is, their early best. Undertow plays like the slightly
more refined songs of the same era- It does have dramaturgical flow,
order, and timing, and it even has a mild addition of conceptual unity.
Its my favorite tool release because i just plain like their old sound
better, Opiate sligtly more than Undertow, but both more than A&L.
As for A&L (and salival to smoe extent),
The progression of their sound is very clear. Its better (in that music
school way), more mature, and thematically evolved. The content and
order have major discrepencies though- Lateralus has the kind of concept
and layout that one would expect after Undertow (more), but Salival has
none and Aenima is as haphazard as a movie soundtrack, the songs have no
subtextual lyrical similarity to each other, No progression through the
album, and no sense of flow whatsoever. This is intentional in my
opinion and makes it a far more interesting sophomore effort than most.
Aenima is the rough hard sibling, Lateralus the child prodigy. Undertow
remains the original core of Tool's genisis, Opiate is the creme de la
creme, presented as the harbinger of things to come. Salival is the
stuff they couldnt cram in elsewhere- save maynards dick which fucks up
my entire theory because it sounds like it was made for opiate...
Frankly, they dont have a single song i dont love, and
opiate/undertow was them playing metal band to get themselves in the
door. i don't think it is coincedence that so many bands come in heavy
and all gradually become more and more mellow (and more creative). in
addition to this theory, they have constantly evolved and progressed. i
think you agree with that. they got better. they were good back then,
but nowhere near what they have become - justin
Agent Orange
>door. i don't think it is coincedence that so many bands come in heavy
>and all gradually become more and more mellow (and more creative). in
>addition to this theory, they have constantly evolved and progressed.
I look at it as this ... songwriting was a way of working through a lot of
negativity, so when they first start out, they're pissed off. Then, they work
through it a bit, get some success, make a bit of money, and the passion is
still there, just without anger. So they direct their artistic eye to other
facets of human emotion, feeling, and experience.
Or, in the case of bands like Korn, they keep making the same shit for the
money because people eat it up.
Joseph Lambert
>money because people eat it up.
Korn definitely is "shit."
smiling_politely
> your first real Tool experience have anything to do with it?
>
> Like I said, I'd love to know if your experience is different to mine,
>
> later people
>
> N
My first experience with Tool was listening to Undertow back in 94. My
younger brother used to play it on the way to this warehouse job we
had at 4am. I liked it a lot...but wasn't blown away.
I saw Tool in concert when they were touring in support of Aenima and
was completely and utterly blown away. Stood there with tears
streaming down my cheeks during parts of their show.
For me personally...all of Tool's music is superb. I like the raw and
rough feel of Opiate. I like that pissed off aggressive feel to it.
I think Undertow is a great expression of focussed anger. Aenima is
an "intelligent" anger. And Lateralus seems to be about moving
on...letting go of anger. (I think Aenima hints at this too.)
Anyway... I'll quit rambling. Lateralus is my personal favorite right
now. But I love all of their albums in their own ways.
I'm was a brewer...and people would often ask what my favorite beer
was. For me...that was always an impossible question to answer.
Because my favorite beer would depend on the situation. On a cold
November night I'd probably like a good Samichlaus. On a warm summer
evening...Pilsner Urquell. So there's no overall favorite....just
depends on the situation and mood. Tool is like beer.
-Jason
Mark Shea
"Delta5Qmp" <delt...@aol.comicrelief> wrote in message
news:20031116231455...@mb-m10.aol.com...
> Lateralus has the kind of concept and layout that one would expect after
> Undertow (more), but Salival has none
Salival definitely does have one. I've always considered it a kind of
reexamination; 'where we were', defined from 'were we are now.'
Mark Shea
Li Han
"lapzirdonocomad" <lapzirdo...@SPAMhotmail.com> wrote in message
news:bp847k$1lkb2h$1...@ID-199763.news.uni-berlin.de...
Nope. The discusion is about albums not songs.
Delta5Qmp
reexamination; 'where we were', defined from 'were we are now.'
Id like to hear more about that, to me the retrospective content seems more
like the result of any compilation than an intentional re-examination, it goes
from old live versions to covers to experiments to unincluded content frmo
other abums- Its the average while you wait EP. Layout-wise, its the best ive
seen, book dvd and organization all as good as they can be, but its still the
'while you were waiting thing' not tools 4th album.
RoSemary
>From: tradew...@aol.com (Joseph Lambert)
>Date: 11/16/03 7:46 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <20031116224618...@mb-m23.aol.com>
>
>>Me, I love Ćnima and Lateralus equally. Ćnima was my first Tool experience.
>>I do like Opiate and Undertow, but not as much. It's just not where my
>>mindset
>>is. I don't feel that they're as creative as the latter two.
>
> I agree. I never understand people that think Opiate/Undertow hold a
>candle to Aenima or Lateralus.
> Opiate is a small collection of half baked ideas, while Undertow
>represents a first shot at concept album creation. It doesn't flow nearly as
>well as Lateralus or Aenima.
>
oh my god, I wouldn't go that far..
then again.. my first tool experience was undertoow.. in form of sober and
prison sex vids. aenima was the first I got into.. fell in love, opened doors
or rather showed validation or.. reflection. (46&2, third eye, spiritually)
undertow is the rich primordial tool.. that will always be the core of tool
for me. I guess I just don't look at the music as technically. ż it's so dark
and full of hidden..
as with the original poster, it is the experience and connection that makes
certain albums particularily favored. so my mood does take much influence as
well.. if I can't decide which album to put in I put in undertow. or opiate..
hehe.
>
> Joe
>
> "Why do we drive on a parkway, yet park on a driveway"?
>
>
>
To understand is not only to pardon, but in the end to Love..
Mark Shea
"Delta5Qmp" <delt...@aol.comicrelief> wrote in message
> >Salival definitely does have one. I've always considered it a kind of
> reexamination; 'where we were', defined from 'were we are now.'
>
> Id like to hear more about that, to me the retrospective content seems
more
> like the result of any compilation than an intentional re-examination, it
goes
> from old live versions to covers to experiments to unincluded content frmo
> other abums-
Well, to me the live versions are significantly different in feel and
content from their originals; I mean Pushit is obvious, but Third Eye just
isn't the same as on Aenima. The pair of significantly modified covers is
also pretty cool.
> Its the average while you wait EP. Layout-wise, its the best ive
> seen, book dvd and organization all as good as they can be, but its still
the
> 'while you were waiting thing' not tools 4th album.
Oh it's not another album. But some effort has gone into it.
Mark Shea
Delta5Qmp
my sentiments exactly