OT: Abortion anyone?
Smoke & Mirrors
abortion.
What's some of your opinions on it? I think it's a personal decision.
One that most people do not give enough thought to.
I don't think abortion is a means to birth control, but this world is a
fucked up place to bring a kid into, you have to be sure you "ARE
READY" and able to support the kid(s).
I can't count how many of my friends have had kids before they were
ready and are now struggling to put diapers on their kids simply because
they didn't believe in abortion. They can't have much of a life now
because they have to work full time, all their time and money goes to
the kids, they are constantly stressed out fighting with each other,
all because they didn't believe in abortion. I think it's more cruel
to bring a child into that kind of environment.
Having a child is something you have to be ready for, not "oops that
condom broke, shit... well let's have a kid that we didn't want, are not
mature enough to raise, and can't afford".
be gentle....
"Be like water my friend"
Chris Brightwell
> [...]
> What's some of your opinions on it? [...]
I'm not a woman, so I'll no doubt be told that my opinion is
invalid. Whatever.
Anyway - I've very much pro-responsibility, neither pro-choice nor
pro-life. I'll explain.
On the one hand, I understand very well the psychological effects of
having an abortion. A lot of people see it as, "the easy way out," when in
fact it is quite the opposite. I don't actually know anyone who's had an
abortion (that I know of), but I've heard plenty of horror stories where
would-be parents are forever depressed because they're forced to live with
the, "What if ...?" syndrome. Things like, "Today would've been his 3rd
birthday," and ... you get the idea. Abortion is not an easy decision.
I think that abortion should be reserved for necessary cases - rape,
incest, child molestation, etc. Some circumstance where the mother
genuinely had no choice in the matter and was forced into the conception.
I don't think that abortion should be used as any sort of birth
control. If you voluntarily have sex and get pregnant, I do not think you
should be allowed to have an abortion - no matter what. Adoption is always
an option, but abortion should be completely out of the question.
If you are too immature or short-sighted to understand the potential
consequences of sex and are unwill or unable to endure said consequences,
you shouldn't be having sex. If you do have sex and a child develops as a
result, you should have to live with that and should have the respect for
the fetus/child to allow it a life, regardless of your stupidity.
No life should be taken because someone else was too fucking stupid
to think through their actions beforehand.
--
chris
-----
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drax
"Chris Brightwell" <cdb47(NOSPAM)@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:apmhtb$2ss5g$1...@ID-156512.news.dfncis.de...
Yep, and anyone should be able to end their own life whenever they choose
to. They should also have quick and easy access to the drugs that would
allow them the most painless exit possible.
drax
Jake
news:apmn86$32no0$1...@ID-55290.news.dfncis.de...
>
> "Jake" <mor...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:jTAv9.1643$Ik6.1...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> > "Smoke & Mirrors" <Cessat...@webtv.net> wrote in message
> > news:16781-3DB...@storefull-2196.public.lawson.webtv.net...
> >
> >
>
> I, on the other hand, would be overjoyed.
Yet another name to add to the suicide note.
Chris Ballinger
It goes something to the effect of...
"Some of my friends, for instance, think these pro-life people are annoying
idiots. Other of my friends of mine think these pro-life people are evil
fucks."
-Bill Hicks.
-chris
TidalCoil
>From: "Chris Brightwell" cdb47(NOSPAM)@comcast.net
>
>"Smoke & Mirrors"
> I'm not a woman, so I'll no doubt be told that my opinion is
>invalid. Whatever.
Exactly, you don't have the parasite feeding offyou!
>
> Anyway - I've very much pro-responsibility, neither pro-choice nor
>pro-life. I'll explain.
Accidents happen. Condoms break. Brith Control Fails.
> Abortion is not an easy decision.
You are 100% right, i know many women who have had them and they are very
tolling mentally and physically. But not as much as a child would be in their
15 year old bodies.
> I think that abortion should be reserved for necessary cases - rape,
>incest, child molestation, etc. Some circumstance where the mother
>genuinely had no choice in the matter and was forced into the conception.
What if the women says she is raped and no one believes her? What if the man
says she is lying? That is fucking stupid chris. Women would probably lie and
say they were raped.
> I don't think that abortion should be used as any sort of birth
>control. If you voluntarily have sex and get pregnant, I do not think you
>should be allowed to have an abortion - no matter what. Adoption is always
>an option, but abortion should be completely out of the question.
Adoption???!?! DO you even KNOW how many kids are in orphanages right now? You
have no right to tell a women to give her baby to someone else to raise. If i
wasn't going to have the baby for the baby's best interest, i sure as hell
wouldn't give it to some random family to take care of it, how do i know that
its life would be better being adopted. The MOTHER should have the choice.
>
> If you are too immature or short-sighted to understand the potential
>consequences of sex and are unwill or unable to endure said consequences,
>you shouldn't be having sex. If you do have sex and a child develops as a
>result, you should have to live with that and should have the respect for
>the fetus/child to allow it a life, regardless of your stupidity.
You are so fucking ignorant. You have never had sex and cannot possibly
understand what it means. You develop an amazing, unique connection to another
human and it is a beautiful thing. We should stop this connect to our loved
ones because we may get pregnant? I am responsible when i have sex not to get
pregant, but if and accident happened i would be, what? Unrespectful of the
fetus? Please, give me a break. Respecting the fetus would be not bringing it
into a world where it won't be loved and cared.
> No life should be taken because someone else was too fucking stupid
>to think through their actions beforehand.
You are too fucking stupid to understand that sometimes women get pregant even
when they think through their actions before hand. No woman wants to kill
their child. They HAVE to. It is horrible, i hope i never have to go through
it. But it would be so selfish of me to make a person and not give it the life
it deserves. Baby's are vessels for souls, the soul should find a place where
it can grow and flourish. Why make it suffer in pergatory and have a horrible
exsistance? Let the soul go, it will find another body.
Becca
G-Ride
> Thought I would help calm the waters in here by talking a bit about
> abortion.
> What's some of your opinions on it?
I am very pro-choice. Abortion is an option that should be available to any
woman who wants one (within whatever "trimester" limits those in the know
have determined, as well as at least parental notification, if not consent,
for minors.) If I were to get some woman pregnant, at least at this point
in my life, my hope/desire/wish/recommendation would be that she opted for
an abortion. Ultimately, however, it'd be her choice. But it's a choice
that needs to be available for her, or any woman, to make.
That being said, I also believe in taking proper precautions to avoid
pregnancy in the first place. However, you'll never get people to not have
sex until they're ready to have a child. People need to get realistic with
regards to sex education - not this abstinence only education that the Bush
administration has been pushing. Give the kids all the facts they need to
make an informed decision w/ regards to sex. And parents need to get over
whatever hangups they have in discussing sex w/ their kids and take the lead
in educating their own kids about sex (and so many other things as well.)
--
Aloha, G-Ride
Across the field you see the sky ripped open
See the rain through a gaping wound
Pounding on the women and children
Who run into the arms
Of America
Sebastien Poitras
> *takes a deep breath*
> Which is precisely why I've chosen to be a virgin until I'm
willing
> and able to support a child. If you're not willing or able to deal with a
> child, you shouldn't be having sex.
>
> I'm not sure if you noticed or not - but I placed no value on sex
> itself, since that's what you've chosen to focus on. I said, quite
clearly,
> that if you choose to have sex, you should be prepared to face the
potential
> consequences. If you're not ready to face that, then don't have sex.
> Simple, right?
I think there is more to sex than just creating life, so the two things
should be treated separately. If I choose to have sex with a girl that takes
the pill, and we use a condom, I don't have a kid in mind. And what is so
special about a couple of cells that could become a complex organism? We
kill millions of those everyday, and the fact that some of these cells can
become a human being doesn't bother me, because they're not one yet.
So why should I ruin my life and partially ruin that of a kid?
But to each his own, stay a virgin for as long as you wish. There'll just be
more girls for me ;)
Sebastien
Axis Dragoon
>Thought I would help calm the waters in here by talking a bit about
>abortion.
>What's some of your opinions on it?
The short, cold answer: Yes, I believe abortion is acceptable, but not after
the second trimester of the pregnancy. Of course, exceptions should be made for
high-risk pregnancies. I believe the mother should have the right at any point
to say, "No, I want to live."
When I first started this reply I tried to explain *why* I feel this way, but I
had trouble organizing my thoughts. So, I'll just leave it at that.
--Axis
"I'm glad you're better with your penis than you are with that water cannon."
-- My wife, Amy, while watching me play Super Mario Sunshine
changey
"Boob420Marley" <tida...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021029133023...@mb-fp.aol.com...
<snip retardation>
i hope you aren't planning on breeding, anyways. god save us all if you
are.
Jake
news:16781-3DB...@storefull-2196.public.lawson.webtv.net...
I'd be pretty pissed if I had been aborted...
Chris Brightwell
"TidalCoil" <tida...@aol.com> wrote
> > I'm not a woman, so I'll no doubt be told that my opinion is
> >invalid. Whatever.
>
> Exactly, you don't have the parasite feeding offyou!
A parasite? I hardly view a child as a parasite, even if the
textbook definition fits.
> > Anyway - I've very much pro-responsibility, neither pro-choice
nor
> >pro-life. I'll explain.
>
> Accidents happen. Condoms break. Brith Control Fails.
Which is precisely why I've chosen to be a virgin until I'm willing
and able to support a child. If you're not willing or able to deal with a
child, you shouldn't be having sex.
> > Abortion is not an easy decision.
>
> You are 100% right, i know many women who have had them and they are very
> tolling mentally and physically. But not as much as a child would be in
their
> 15 year old bodies.
Another classic example of poor thought toward consequences.
> > I think that abortion should be reserved for necessary cases -
rape,
> >incest, child molestation, etc. Some circumstance where the mother
> >genuinely had no choice in the matter and was forced into the conception.
>
> What if the women says she is raped and no one believes her? What if the
man
> says she is lying? That is fucking stupid chris. Women would probably
lie and
> say they were raped.
I wouldn't leave it up to the doctor or the institution to determine
who is or isn't eligible for an abortion. Additionally, anyone who *lies*
about being raped isn't worth their weight in cow shit.
> > I don't think that abortion should be used as any sort of birth
> >control. If you voluntarily have sex and get pregnant, I do not think
you
> >should be allowed to have an abortion - no matter what. Adoption is
always
> >an option, but abortion should be completely out of the question.
>
> Adoption???!?!
Yes.
> DO you even KNOW how many kids are in orphanages right now?
Because people had children they were unwilling or unable to
properly support.
> You
> have no right to tell a women to give her baby to someone else to raise.
And no woman has a right to unjustly terminate a pregnancy simply
because they were too shallow-minded to think about what would happen if
they had sex.
> If i
> wasn't going to have the baby for the baby's best interest, i sure as hell
> wouldn't give it to some random family to take care of it, how do i know
that
> its life would be better being adopted. The MOTHER should have the choice.
If you're not willing to have the baby, for whatever reason, then
you shouldn't put yourself in a situation that would allow you to become
pregnant and have to make the decision.
If you choose to have sex and, as a result, become pregnant - in my
opinion, you've already made the decision by having sex.
> [...]
> You are so fucking ignorant. You have never had sex and cannot possibly
> understand what it means.
I should've expected this much from you.
I'm not sure if you noticed or not - but I placed no value on sex
itself, since that's what you've chosen to focus on. I said, quite clearly,
that if you choose to have sex, you should be prepared to face the potential
consequences. If you're not ready to face that, then don't have sex.
Simple, right?
> You develop an amazing, unique connection to another
> human and it is a beautiful thing.
That's fine. I never refuted that.
> We should stop this connect to our loved
> ones because we may get pregnant?
If you're unwilling to deal with the pregnancy, then yes. I would
say that you should.
> I am responsible when i have sex not to get
> pregant, but if and accident happened i would be, what? Unrespectful of
the
> fetus?
Accidents happen, right? If you know that they happen, you should
take that into consideration when you make the decision to have sex. If you
make that decision, you should be prepared to deal with any possible
consequences that would result from whatever "accident" may happen.
The only way to avoid these "accidents" is to make a conscious
decision to not put yourself in that situation. If you choose to put
yourself in that situation, then deal with it.
> Please, give me a break.
Hardly. You've been far less than respectful in this thread
already.
> Respecting the fetus would be not bringing it
> into a world where it won't be loved and cared.
Respecting that life (whenever you determine life to exist) would be
allowing it to thrive, regardless of your fuckups.
> You are too fucking stupid
*sigh*
> to understand that sometimes women get pregant even
> when they think through their actions before hand.
If they think their actions through, then they have inheretly made
the decision to deal with the pregnancy in some humane and respectful
manner, have they not? If they think through it and decide to ignore the
possibility of pregnancy, I hardly consider that a responsible decision.
> No woman wants to kill
> their child. They HAVE to.
That is complete bullshit.
> It is horrible, i hope i never have to go through
> it.
I wouldn't wish an abortion on anyone.
> But it would be so selfish of me to make a person and not give it the life
> it deserves.
So you would rather take away the opportunity to have a life at all?
Interesting.
> Baby's are vessels for souls, the soul should find a place where
> it can grow and flourish. Why make it suffer in pergatory and have a
horrible
> exsistance? Let the soul go, it will find another body.
The soul is fully capable of growing and flourishing in any
situation.
drax
"Jake" <mor...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:jTAv9.1643$Ik6.1...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
I, on the other hand, would be overjoyed.
drax
TidalCoil
speaking), i don't think you should have any opinion that matters on abortion.
I think it is the mother's choice, i don't even think infanticide is always a
terrible thing. I don't think I would get an abortion or kill my baby, but i
don't think badly of a women who makes either choice in the CHILD'S BEST
INTEREST. Better not flame me about the infanticide thing just cause it isn't
the norm in america, many women all over the world will kill their newborn if
they feel they are born with an evil soul, or for many other reasons that the
mother may feel something is wrong with the baby. Of course it isn't always
done in the best interest of the baby, sometimes the reason s are quite selfish
(ie chinese people wanting to have boy babies, now there are too many men).
Infanticide is actually safer for the mom than an abortion in many of these
cultures where they don't have proper medical care. It isn't that they want to
kill their child, they really do want to have kids, it is just that they feel
there is somthing wrong that might upset the balance of their community.
Imagine if everyone in this culture was so selfless, they would sacrifce
something they love and want for the greater good of the child and the
community.
Becca
Taxicabgod
count my blessings...no pregnancies and no diseases.....i'd like to say i'm
pro-choice....i've got an awfully cynical view of the world most of the time
and don't think it needs a mini me or any more insane poorly raised kids...but
...wow....i don't think i could actually 'o.k.' it if it was 'my' fetus. probly
not anyway.
drax
who's sucide note?
drax
Styx
Mirrors) wrote:
>Thought I would help calm the waters in here by talking a bit about
>abortion.
Haha.
That ruled.
- <dumbjaw> * <dum...@comcast.net>
- <http://www.dumbjaw.com/>
- <the game show network fan club>
erin
"|sebAstian|" <nofor...@subdimension.com> wrote in message
news:apmvri$36sk4$1...@ID-153809.news.dfncis.de...
>
> "Chris Brightwell" <cdb47(NOSPAM)@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:apmn24$3466e$1...@ID-156512.news.dfncis.de...
> >
> > "TidalCoil" <tida...@aol.com> wrote
> > > > I'm not a woman, so I'll no doubt be told that my opinion is
> > > >invalid. Whatever.
> > >
> > > Exactly, you don't have the parasite feeding offyou!
> >
> > A parasite? I hardly view a child as a parasite, even if the
> > textbook definition fits.
> >
> > > > Anyway - I've very much pro-responsibility, neither
pro-choice
> > nor
> > > >pro-life. I'll explain.
> > >
> > > Accidents happen. Condoms break. Brith Control Fails.
> >
> > Which is precisely why I've chosen to be a virgin until I'm
> willing
> > and able to support a child. If you're not willing or able to deal with
a
> > child, you shouldn't be having sex.
>
better
> stop driving.
Obviously the answer is "yes," everyone who drives is subject to these
possibilities. Anyone who self-denies the possibilities is deluding
him/herself.
Cheers,
Erin
>
>
> --
> -|sebAstian|
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> "When touched by pleasant contact, do not be enthralled. Do not tremble
when
> touched by pain. Look evenly on both the pleasant and painful. Not drawn
or
> repelled by anything."
> -Lord Buddha
>
> "what? the land of the free?
> whoever told you that is your enemy"
> -RATM
>
>
erin
> *government* should have no control over what you do with your body;
you're
> allowed to have your opinions, but you do not have the right to force
anyone
> to live their lives according to your standards.
If you've seen the pictures in Life Magazine, you know the irony of this
claim (that nobody else should control your body.) Because that's a body
inside of the other body. That's mammalian live birth for you! The fetus
is a body. So, fine, if nobody should have the power to control or destroy
a body, I understand your point. And another thing, the conservative line
of thinking is almost libertarian -- the religious conservative line of
thinking is micro-management. Big difference.
>
> > If you are too immature or short-sighted to understand the
> potential
> > consequences of sex and are unwill or unable to endure said
consequences,
> > you shouldn't be having sex.
>
> Paradox anyone?
Explanation, someone?
>
> > If you do have sex and a child develops as a
> > result, you should have to live with that and should have the respect
for
> > the fetus/child to allow it a life, regardless of your stupidity.
>
> This brings up a question that I've been asking myself a lot lately: Is it
> better to follow the ethic/principal or is it better to follow the
logical.
>
> I have to go with logic.
If you could make a single statement that is logical (e.g. that contains
both premise and conclusion) I'd understand what you're saying.
>
>
> > No life should be taken because someone else was too fucking
> stupid
> > to think through their actions beforehand.
>
> I guess you'd have to define life; as far as I'm concerned it's not a life
> until it's sustaining itself; until then it's an "it".
Oh, that would mean that most adolescents are "its." I know a lot of full
grown adult "its."
Believe me, a child of one year is no more/less dependant on parent(s) than
a child of one day past live birth. Or a child of one day, period.
I'm surprised you could even type that and press send. But that's just my
opinion, and my opinions are immaterial, in this discussion.
erin
"Axis Dragoon" <axisd...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021029133959...@mb-fd.aol.com...
> Cessat...@webtv.net (Smoke & Mirrors) wrote:
> >Thought I would help calm the waters in here by talking a bit about
> >abortion.
> >What's some of your opinions on it?
>
> The short, cold answer: Yes, I believe abortion is acceptable, but not
after
> the second trimester of the pregnancy.
What happens, at that moment (which I'll be happy to hear you determine
medically) that differentiates that fetus of one semester from the fetus of
two and three semesters? Still the same 44+2 chromosomes, mate. Still the
same unique individual.
I think it makes you feel better, and that's worth something. But I don't
know what changes at that point. Or any point from conception to death.
What makes a person less than a person?
Cheers,
Erin
erin
"TidalCoil" <tida...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021029131316...@mb-fp.aol.com...
> I think if blood doesn't pour out of your gentials once a month
(figuartivly
> speaking), i don't think you should have any opinion that matters on
abortion.
> I think it is the mother's choice, i don't even think infanticide is
always a
> terrible thing.
Okay, that's about good for me. Sorry I responded to your initial reply, I
clearly wasted my time and yours.
Wow.
Erin
The Propies Man
your view of abortion has nothing to do with the fact that you also hold the
view that you should just have sex with whomever you are physically
attracted to...sounds like an escape vehicle to me. Selfish selfish selfish
gratifcation gratification gratification. If it is inherent in nature that
sex creates life, then how is it justifiable to think of sex as something
purely physical with LIFE being something of a *by-product* of sex that can
and HAS (as you say) to be done away with in situations of bad timing?
Sounds totally backwards to me. Selfish selfish selfish.
Jimmy
TidalCoil wrote in message <20021029133023...@mb-fp.aol.com>...
changey
"TidalCoil" <tida...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021029131316...@mb-fp.aol.com...
you just get dumber and dumber. i tried to say that i thought that this
TidalCoil wasn't becca, but i was told that it is. you are a dipshit, and
your recent return to potsmoking has made you even dumber than you were
before. people like you ruin it for everyone else.
Volitionist
the situations of mistakes/unpredictable problems (not 20/20 hindsight, but
rather a breaking condom or that .4% chance left over from the
pill/shot/patch/etc.). Saying that people shouldn't have sex at all if they
are not ready to conceive sounds very reasonable, but would be impossible in
this society to institute...sex has become too important, and I would even
go one step further and say that it's not fair to morally outlaw sex for
couples not ready for a child. But dat's just me.
It's hard to say "abortion for only these situations" because of course
there is lying, or even loopholes that cancel out genuine candidates by your
rules. It would be nearly impossible to enforce case-by-case abortion, and
I think that family planning efforts should be focused more on the steps
beforehand (education, condoms, etc). Outlawing abortions altogether or
using your case-by-case ideas would lead to thousands of women (and their
fetuses---fetii?) dying in make-shift, illegal abortion clinics or trying to
do it themselves with punches to the gut and coat hangers. Sorry for the
gross visual.
In any case, I think your opinion is quite valid, regardless of gender. It
may be the woman's choice ultimately because it is her body [the man's body
is hardly involved], but men make the babies too and should have a say in
both the personal situations and the legislation in government.
Alright, time to go back and forget about AMT for a month. Heh. Oh, and
Chris, you're still awesome; just 'cause I'm not in the little elite group
at the upcoming show don't mean I'm not cool enough! Don't hesitate to IM
me a bunch :-D
-Amber
P.S. Ain't nobody dope as me, I'm dressed so fresh so clean.
--
http://yourperfectcircle.cjb.net
[Regular][TÆ][A5][L+][Sx][Bx][FMA][P+][C*]
"just looking at that picture makes me feel
like i have noses in my eyes" -Paula
"mmm. amber salsa." -Brightwell
--
"Chris Brightwell" <cdb47(NOSPAM)@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:apmhtb$2ss5g$1...@ID-156512.news.dfncis.de...
> "Smoke & Mirrors" <Cessat...@webtv.net> wrote
> > [...]
> > What's some of your opinions on it? [...]
>
<snip>
Mirella
I just had that very long sex and precaution thread in the Pearl Jam
newsgroup. It's a disease ;)
groetjes,
Mirella :)
--
700+ PJ links at http://pearljam.start4all.com - please help me make it 1,000+
Judy
"Smoke & Mirrors" <Cessat...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:16781-3DB...@storefull-2196.public.lawson.webtv.net...
> Thought I would help calm the waters in here by talking a bit about
> abortion.
> What's some of your opinions on it? I
If a person can't be responsible enough to keep from being pregnant, then
the pregnancy should be ended as fast as possible. The morning after would
be good. Not knowing until months later is stupid and not being
responsible.
Pregnancy tests as well as pills to end it should be free and available in
vending machines. I'm exaggerating of course. There are serious problems
with this, but maybe school nurses?
I think that it is a sad thing that sex isn't kept more special. It should
be the ultimate expression of love. I don't think that it is something to
market to kids.
I hate the parasite reference. If it feels like a parasite when you are
pregnant, wait until it gets older.
Family planning should be a priority. I would love to see much more thought
go into having kids and raising them in a happy, appropriate environment.
Judy
Smagmapig333
>From: tida...@aol.com (TidalCoil)
>Date: 10/29/02 1:13 PM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <20021029131316...@mb-fp.aol.com>
>
>I think if blood doesn't pour out of your gentials once a month (figuartivly
>speaking), i don't think you should have any opinion that matters on
>abortion.
>I think it is the mother's choice, i don't even think infanticide is always a
>terrible thing. I don't think I would get an abortion or kill my baby, but i
>don't think badly of a women who makes either choice in the CHILD'S BEST
>INTEREST. Better not flame me about the infanticide thing just cause it
>isn't
>the norm in america, many women all over the world will kill their newborn if
>they feel they are born with an evil soul, or for many other reasons that the
>mother may feel something is wrong with the baby. Of course it isn't always
>done in the best interest of the baby, sometimes the reason s are quite
>selfish
>(ie chinese people wanting to have boy babies, now there are too many men).
>Infanticide is actually safer for the mom than an abortion in many of these
>cultures where they don't have proper medical care. It isn't that they want
>to
>kill their child, they really do want to have kids, it is just that they feel
>there is somthing wrong that might upset the balance of their community.
>Imagine if everyone in this culture was so selfless, they would sacrifce
>something they love and want for the greater good of the child and the
>community.
>
>Becca
>
unforunately for this newsgroup your mother was not aware of infanticide years
back.
mike
Smagmapig333
mike
econeywaaa
Goddamn..don't you know that we'd all be better off letting every
little crack baby or any baby for that matter be born?
Just ponder this...there isn't one single abortion protester or
Operation Rescue member that has ever shed a tear over all the people
that are killed by our great America action heroes in our violent
culture. How can you condemn one woman's choice in a country that
glorifies violence? Remember the Rambo action figures?
That way George Bush and Dick Cheney and Trent Lott and Joe Biden and
all those fucking pundits can send them off to get killed in some
foreign country in the name of "patriotism", when we all know that
the oil loving Bushes only want to trade the blood of American youth
for petro-dollars. What happened to Enron and Halliburton? Arthur
Andersen?...uh, huh..forgot them,didn't you? I have never been a
conspiracy theorist in my life...I think that 95% are just looking for
publicity, but doesn't anyone find it funny that the deciding factor
in the last election was the Florida results...Florida...Jeb
Bush...George H was Director of the CIA...you do the math...
And how about Paul Wellstone...a politican that just had the balls to
threaten the military industrial complex and paid the ultimate
price...and with his death and the drafting of the non entity named
Fritz Mondale, control of Congress will again go the the Republican
Party.
I'm not making this up. I'm not that good.
Remember...no one tells a man what do do with their bodies in
America..but a woman better look like Britney Spears or the Victoria's
Secret catalog girls or she's worthless.
just my bandwidth...
e
the new econeywaa.com coming soon.....
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|sebAstian|
"Chris Brightwell" <cdb47(NOSPAM)@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:apmhtb$2ss5g$1...@ID-156512.news.dfncis.de...
> > What's some of your opinions on it? [...]
>
> I'm not a woman, so I'll no doubt be told that my opinion is
> invalid. Whatever.
>
> pro-life. I'll explain.
>
of
> having an abortion. A lot of people see it as, "the easy way out," when
in
> fact it is quite the opposite. I don't actually know anyone who's had an
> abortion (that I know of), but I've heard plenty of horror stories where
> would-be parents are forever depressed because they're forced to live with
> the, "What if ...?" syndrome. Things like, "Today would've been his 3rd
>
> I think that abortion should be reserved for necessary cases -
rape,
> incest, child molestation, etc. Some circumstance where the mother
> genuinely had no choice in the matter and was forced into the conception.
>
> control. If you voluntarily have sex and get pregnant, I do not think you
> should be allowed to have an abortion - no matter what. Adoption is
always
> an option, but abortion should be completely out of the question.
That's my problem right there with the right wing line of thinking. The
*government* should have no control over what you do with your body; you're
allowed to have your opinions, but you do not have the right to force anyone
to live their lives according to your standards.
> If you are too immature or short-sighted to understand the
potential
> consequences of sex and are unwill or unable to endure said consequences,
> you shouldn't be having sex.
Paradox anyone?
> If you do have sex and a child develops as a
> result, you should have to live with that and should have the respect for
> the fetus/child to allow it a life, regardless of your stupidity.
This brings up a question that I've been asking myself a lot lately: Is it
better to follow the ethic/principal or is it better to follow the logical.
I have to go with logic.
> No life should be taken because someone else was too fucking
stupid
> to think through their actions beforehand.
I guess you'd have to define life; as far as I'm concerned it's not a life
until it's sustaining itself; until then it's an "it".
--
-|sebAstian|
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|sebAstian|
> *takes a deep breath*
>
> "TidalCoil" <tida...@aol.com> wrote
> > > I'm not a woman, so I'll no doubt be told that my opinion is
> > >invalid. Whatever.
> >
> > Exactly, you don't have the parasite feeding offyou!
>
> A parasite? I hardly view a child as a parasite, even if the
> textbook definition fits.
>
> > > Anyway - I've very much pro-responsibility, neither pro-choice
> nor
> > >pro-life. I'll explain.
> >
> > Accidents happen. Condoms break. Brith Control Fails.
>
> Which is precisely why I've chosen to be a virgin until I'm
willing
> and able to support a child. If you're not willing or able to deal with a
> child, you shouldn't be having sex.
Are you willing to be decapitated? Paralyzed? Broken? Bruised? no? better
stop driving.
--
The Propies Man
Jimmy
econeywaaa wrote in message ...
erin
> >invalid. Whatever.
>
> Exactly, you don't have the parasite feeding offyou!
That would mean that we've all been parasites. In practical terms, this is
a very sweeping justification for destroying some(thing/one). For example,
children that breastfeed are still "parasitic." Individuals who eat because
my labor goes to support charities that feed them... are "parasitic."
I think most mothers would agree, the analogy fails the test of reality.
Parasites, in nature, don't possess half the chromosomes of the parent.
And if we're disqualifying men from the discussion (because they can't have
children) we'll have to discriminate against the opinions of women who, for
example, cannot have children due to radical hysterectomies, etc.
> >
> > Anyway - I've very much pro-responsibility, neither pro-choice
nor
> >pro-life. I'll explain.
>
> Accidents happen. Condoms break. Brith Control Fails.
All these explanations presuppose an agreement on a shaky premise -- that
sex is okay if it's random. Like many people, I've had loads of random sex,
and redundant birth control has provided 100 percent protection in those
instances; however, sex is a biological function that we've all approached
subjectively. The function is reproduction. We shouldn't be dumbfounded
when we fail to thwart nature.
>
> > Abortion is not an easy decision.
>
> You are 100% right, i know many women who have had them and they are very
> tolling mentally and physically. But not as much as a child would be in
their
> 15 year old bodies.
>
>
> > I think that abortion should be reserved for necessary cases -
rape,
> >incest, child molestation, etc. Some circumstance where the mother
> >genuinely had no choice in the matter and was forced into the conception.
>
> What if the women says she is raped and no one believes her? What if the
man
> says she is lying? That is fucking stupid chris. Women would probably
lie and
> say they were raped.
I don't think this is accurate, as they would have to file a report with
police, which would initiate an investigation. I do agree, in a roundabout
way, that it's invalid to reserve a right to life to those persons/fetuses
that we deem worthy. The person/fetus would have no culpability in the
violent assault against the woman.
At the same time, it's worth considering, less than one percent of
American's 1.4 million abortions were because of rape/incest. So I agree
with Chris in the sense that we ought to view the situation with objectivity
and clarity. There are over a million elective abortions that don't have
anything to do with oppressive or forced sexual intercourse.
>
> > I don't think that abortion should be used as any sort of birth
> >control. If you voluntarily have sex and get pregnant, I do not think
you
> >should be allowed to have an abortion - no matter what. Adoption is
always
> >an option, but abortion should be completely out of the question.
>
> Adoption???!?! DO you even KNOW how many kids are in orphanages right now?
You
> have no right to tell a women to give her baby to someone else to raise.
If i
> wasn't going to have the baby for the baby's best interest, i sure as hell
> wouldn't give it to some random family to take care of it, how do i know
that
> its life would be better being adopted. The MOTHER should have the choice.
The father should have some obligations and liability, here, too.
>
> >
> > If you are too immature or short-sighted to understand the
potential
> >consequences of sex and are unwill or unable to endure said consequences,
> >you shouldn't be having sex. If you do have sex and a child develops as
a
> >result, you should have to live with that and should have the respect for
> >the fetus/child to allow it a life, regardless of your stupidity.
>
> You are so fucking ignorant. You have never had sex and cannot possibly
> understand what it means. You develop an amazing, unique connection to
another
> human and it is a beautiful thing. We should stop this connect to our
loved
> ones because we may get pregnant? I am responsible when i have sex not to
get
> pregant, but if and accident happened i would be, what? Unrespectful of
the
> fetus? Please, give me a break. Respecting the fetus would be not
bringing it
> into a world where it won't be loved and cared.
William Jefferson Clinton was brought into such a world, born into abject
poverty. So was I. Personally, as I sit here breathing right now, I'm glad
no one "spared" me the journey.
>
>
> > No life should be taken because someone else was too fucking
stupid
> >to think through their actions beforehand.
>
> You are too fucking stupid to understand that sometimes women get pregant
even
> when they think through their actions before hand. No woman wants to
kill
> their child. They HAVE to. It is horrible, i hope i never have to go
through
> it. But it would be so selfish of me to make a person and not give it the
life
> it deserves. Baby's are vessels for souls, the soul should find a place
where
> it can grow and flourish. Why make it suffer in pergatory and have a
horrible
> exsistance? Let the soul go, it will find another body.
Your religious views shouldn't enter into this discussion. And would it
more selfish of you to 'get rid of it,' or to undertake the struggle of
'bringing it into this world?' Your stats on orphanages are way off --
there is a long wait for adoptions. It would be even easier if gay couples
were allowed to adopt. Your views of pergatory (sic) and souls
transcending... don't get much mileage outside of the church or temple.
>
>
> Becca
>
>
Yours,
Erin
M.S.A. Straw
"Chris Brightwell" <cdb47(NOSPAM)@comcast.net> wrote:
> "Smoke & Mirrors" <Cessat...@webtv.net> wrote
> > [...]
> > What's some of your opinions on it? [...]
>
> I don't actually know anyone who's had an
> abortion (that I know of),
Yeah you do.
--
Maevele
cunt is definately art. regardless of the adornments.-insaner
erin
"retrovertigo" <may...@tool.com> wrote in message
news:3dbf161b$1...@news.teranews.com...> news:20021029131316...@mb-fp.aol.com...
> > I think it is the mother's choice, i don't even think infanticide is
> always a
> > terrible thing.
>
> unacceptable?
>
> - retrovertigo
>
Similarly, at what age does a woman achieve the bodily integrity that you
believe to exist, in society?
Yours,
Erin
|sebAstian|
"econeywaaa" <econe...@econeywaaa.com> wrote in message
news:f15uru864jvun6daq...@4ax.com...
::Standing ovation::
Chris Brightwell
> Are you willing to be decapitated? Paralyzed? Broken? Bruised? no?
better
> stop driving.
I'm willing to deal with the consequences of an auto accident, if
that's what you're asking.
Chris Brightwell
> > I don't actually know anyone who's had an
> > abortion (that I know of),
>
> Yeah you do.
Hence the, "(that I know of)." :P
I stand corrected, then.
Josh Gardner
news:16781-3DB...@storefull-2196.public.lawson.webtv.net...
> Thought I would help calm the waters in here by talking a bit about
> abortion.
A slight tangent.. But does it piss anyone else off that many of the people
who are the staunchest pro-life advocates, are the same people who froth at
the mouth when anyone attempts to provide high school students with condoms,
birth control pills, etc?
Some people just make my head hurt...
- retrovertigo
retrovertigo
Axis Dragoon
>What happens, at that moment (which I'll be happy to hear you determine
>medically) that differentiates that fetus of one semester from the fetus of
>two and three semesters? Still the same 44+2 chromosomes, mate. Still the
>same unique individual.
It has absolutely nothing to do with the baby. It is in my personal experience
(as a friend, cousin, brother-in-law, etc.) that most women begin to see the
baby as their child, rather than a medical condition, late in the pregnancy.
Basically, I think the guilt that may result after an abortion would be far
worse for a woman who chose to abort later in the pregnancy than a woman who
did so early on. I feel that if the woman hasn't made the decision to abort by
that time, then she probably doesn't really want to, and this would be to
prevent other people (say, an angry parent or lover) from talking her into it
(which I'm sad to say, I have seen happen) and possibly causing her a lifetime
of mental anguish over it.
>I think it makes you feel better, and that's worth something.
Why would I be trying to make myself "feel better"?
*hopefully*wild*
>
> snip
I'm ashamed to say I'm in agreement with you, Becca. You did nothing to
assurt your point. All you did was show everyone that when you disagree with
someone, you call them names. I would seriously have a hard time taking any
point you make seriously.
That being said, I'm pro choice. Yes, I disagree with Chris Brightwell.
~Lauri
fetus
(figuartivly
> speaking), i don't think you should have any opinion that matters on
abortion.
so you think that all women should raise all the kids in the world by
themselves with no help at all from they fathers?
if the woman i got pregnant wanted to kill OUR child, i would try and at
least talk her into having the baby and letting me have full responsability.
she wouldnt even have to pay child support. i cant see how the father of
the child is not allowed ANY opinion on their child. thats absurd. yes i can
see how the father has no right to MAKE the woman do anything to her body
she doesnt want to, but by god i WILL have an opinion about my own child,
even if their mother is too selfish to love them.
this of course only implies to me though, i cant dictate anyone elses
actions on the matter.
fetus
i personally would never want my wife (or some other woman) to have my
abortion. i would want to raise my child, so i would offer to take care of
them myself if i had to. i think its different for everyone though, like
religion.
im not going to try and make you believe what i do. so i cant tell you what
you should do. i personally dont think i could handle mental effects of
having my child aborted.
i have an old friend whos mom MADE her abort her baby and now she is totally
messed up. its a sad situation.
"Smoke & Mirrors" <Cessat...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:16781-3DB...@storefull-2196.public.lawson.webtv.net...
> Thought I would help calm the waters in here by talking a bit about
> abortion.
Judy
You are good. I agree with this post
Judy
LadyNature
>to think through their actions beforehand.
>
>
>chris
You know, I'm pro-responsibility too. However, the last thing I want is more
irresponsible fucked up immature dumbasses breeding up babies that are just
gonna grow into irresponsible fucked up immature dumbasses. Know what I'm
sayin'?
We should not force people to have kids as "punishment". That screws the kid
even more than it screws the parent.
Ultimately, I don't think we should force our feelings onto other people's
bodies. The woman might be irresponsible, immature, and selfish. But you know,
it is her *right* to act that way, because, yes, it is her body.
My pennies' worth.
ever yours,
naturally,
~Lady Nature
"Life is OT" -- Jn
LadyNature
>If it is inherent in nature that
>sex creates life,
It is is also inherent in nature that sex creates pleasure. In some cases, sex
creates the sense of a deeper emotional/spiritual connection.
Sex, especially, human sex, is about alot more than simply reproducing. Would
you suggest that infertile couples not bother with the whole sex thing because
the "natural" outcome is impossible?
LadyNature
>That would mean that we've all been parasites. In practical terms, this is
Well, she overstated things. It's not a parasite proper, but the relationship
is in fact parasitic/parasite-like.
>I don't think this is accurate, as they would have to file a report with
>police, which would initiate an investigation.
they don't *have* to. They ought to. The fact remains however that close to a
third of all rape cases go unreported, and this is a conservative estimate.
>Personally, as I sit here breathing right now, I'm glad
>no one "spared" me the journey.
To each his own. As it so happens, I'm pretty content at this point in my life.
I was, in fact, a wanted child.
Nevertheless, my childhood sucked boatloads. I wasn't being anally raped on a
daily basis or anything. But I do have a distinct memory of being eleven years
old and completely suicidal. I would say that if I had my childhood to live
over again - I wouldn't. In fact, if bringing a child into the world meant that
they had to live my childhood, I'd rather not have the child.
Of course the great problem is that all these things are retrospect. But let's
not be naive. Not all lives are worth the living.
> And would it
>more selfish of you to 'get rid of it,' or to undertake the struggle of
>'bringing it into this world?'
Good question. As it happens, I have a HUGE problem with the women out there
who think it's perfectly acceptable to go to the local sperm bank, inseminate,
and *bam*, instant motherhood with (usually) no father. I think that's utterly
selfish and assholish. Fathers are not expendable.
Similarly, the decision to have a biological child when so many children out
there need homes is also a selfish one. Make no mistake about that.
LadyNature
>If you've seen the pictures in Life Magazine, you know the irony of this
>claim (that nobody else should control your body.) Because that's a body
>inside of the other body. That's mammalian live birth for you!
Yeah well, it's difficult to come up with fitting analogies for pregnancy, but
imagine that you are walking along a cliff, suddenly, out of the blue, you are
knocked over the edge. You manage to grab onto the cliff, and you find that a
person has grabbed on to your legs. Question is, do you have the right to kick
this person off of you to increase your chances of being able to safely climb
back to stable ground??
I would say, yes. That's not the nice thing to do, but it is *your* body. Yes,
this person is using your body to sustain himself, but that's his bad luck, now
isn't it?
>Oh, that would mean that most adolescents are "its." I know a lot of full
>grown adult "its."
I'm sure he means in the biological sense. Although, yes, his logic is still
somewhat faulty, since it suggests that a diabetic who needs a dialysis machine
is also an "it".
LadyNature
>I think it is the mother's choice, i don't even think infanticide is always a
>terrible thing.
Man, you are gonna get so slammed for this. But I do, in fact, agree.
I know American society loves to paint the picture of mothers who commit
infanticide as being psychotic homicidal maniacs who should be given death, or
life in prison. However, numerous studies have shown that most women who kill
their newborn, can, with proper counseling, become very good mothers in the
future. Usually women turn to infanticide as a last resort when they are under
incredible emotional strain and pressure. It's usually a sign of treatable and
curable mental illness, not cruelty per se.
In some societies past, it was actually fairly common that in bitterly hard
times, women would commit infanticide, and then once plenty returned, they'd go
on to be very good mothers.
Alas, most people's views of what constitutes motherhood and the motherly
instinct are woefully ill-informed. That's part of what leads people to
conclude that women who would have abortions are unfeeling, uncaring,
unrelentingly selfish, or would make bad mothers.
Ironic then that *MOST* mothers are, in fact, pro-choice.
LadyNature
>
>Cheers,
>
>Erin
As the old saying goes, an acorn is no oak tree, my friend. Yes, there is a
continuum, and it is quite difficult if not impossible to draw a line. But that
does not change the truth of the statement.
LadyNature
why? No really.. think about it? If you consider it logically, this doesn't
even make any sense. You would simply remain in a state of non-being. There
would be no *you*. In fact, there'd be no *you* who could even be upset.
LadyNature
>Operation Rescue member that has ever shed a tear over all the people
>that are killed by our great America action heroes in our violent
>culture. How can you condemn one woman's choice in a country that
>glorifies violence? Remember the Rambo action figures?
Another good point. If we spent half the time we do worrying about "potential
kids" on worrying about actual already born and present kids, our world would
be in much better shape.
Judy
"LadyNature" <ladyn...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021029234551...@mb-mt.aol.com...
I believe that unborn babies are people. I also believe in abortion rights.
But I strongly believe in taking care of the babies that we have. Mostly, I
don't think that our government should decide. I really wish that people
could put more thought into whether they should have kids. Kids should have
more rights.
Judy
Shanan Capes
news:16781-3DB...@storefull-2196.public.lawson.webtv.net...
> Thought I would help calm the waters in here by talking a bit about
> abortion.
>
unborn fetus, then for the sake of all that's good in the world, I don't
want them to be parents! Just don't ask me to kill my baby.
~ Shanan
econeywaaa
>Another good point. If we spent half the time we do worrying about "potential
>kids" on worrying about actual already born and present kids, our world would
>be in much better shape.
>
>ever yours,
>naturally,
>~Lady Nature
>
>"Life is OT" -- Jn
My point exactly. Isn't it ironic that more Americans know the name of
John Allen Muhammad than that of the Vice President? A generation is
now emerging that does not remember the horrors of the Vietnam War and
only knows what our corrupt government tells them about war.
"it's like the America's Army game that uses the Unreal 3 engine,
dude!"
"like, in Black Hawk Down...it was so cool...it was all white guys
killing black guys like in GTA!!!"
"like in We Were Soldiers when you're Mel Gibson and everyone dies
around you, but if you play it good enough, you go home to the hot
wife and everyone else goes home in body bags.."
I'm an American and a patriot. I've been all over the world and seen
the utter contempt that other nations have for us, due to the actions
of our own government. I'm loyal to the dream that our forefathers had
envisoned for us..not the horrible perversions being committed in the
name of those dreams. As Woody Allen put it.. "if Jesus Christ came
back today and saw what was being done in his name, he wouldn't stop
throwing up." I feel Thomas Jefferson would react the same way
People ask why Sept 11 happened..I ask why it doesn't happen more
often? Consider this...in the gas disaster inflicted on the innocent
people of Bhopal, India , (which resulted in 3800 deaths and 2700
injured, WTC numbers, no?) why was Union Carbide not branded as
"terrorists"?... Why they were only trying to make MONEY! They didn't
mean to kill all those cute little brown people with the dot-heads.
As long as our children are raised in a society where only 1/3 of all
registered voters voted in the last election, where apathy is not only
taught, it's encouraged, then they shouldn't be surprised when our
governments actions in the name of "enduring freedom" may force them
someday to eat their OWN babies.
e..
econeywaaa
>
>You are good. I agree with this post
>Judy
>
Judy from Portland, OR?
Judy
>
> >
> >You are good. I agree with this post
> >Judy
> >
>
>
>
> Judy from Portland, OR?
>
Judy
Judy
>
> >Hell yeah and you are my hero.
> >Judy
> >
>
>
>
> Last time I saw you I was running around Portland trying to find
> batteries and buying shit ones that ran out halfway through Crimson's
> set..always good to see your name.
>
Last time I saw you I was having one of the best nights ever. Do you ever
get back to Portland? Judy
econeywaaa
Not much..mostly retired now and hanging around the house....
be good to yourself...
Taxicabgod
registered voters voted in the last election, where apathy is not only taught,
it's encouraged, then they shouldn't be surprised when our governments actions
in the name of "enduring freedom" may force them someday to eat their OWN
causes revolution...they'll make sure we all have enough mcdonalds...while they
fuck us in every other way!!!
Jake
> >I'd be pretty pissed if I had been aborted...
>
> why? No really.. think about it? If you consider it logically, this
doesn't
> even make any sense. You would simply remain in a state of non-being.
There
> would be no *you*. In fact, there'd be no *you* who could even be upset.
>
That is exactly why I posted my comment. It was supposed to be ironic.
Troy
>
>
> > I'm not a woman, so I'll no doubt be told that my opinion is
> >invalid. Whatever.
>
> Exactly, you don't have the parasite feeding offyou!
That's pretty mean.
> > Anyway - I've very much pro-responsibility, neither pro-choice
nor
> >pro-life. I'll explain.
Chris, I pretty much agree with your points.
> Accidents happen. Condoms break. Brith Control Fails.
You forgot to mention pulling out. Is that RU-486 pill legal here? That
may be another alternative, although post-conception.
> DO you even KNOW how many kids are in orphanages right now?
Ophanages have almost completely disappeared within the last 50 years.
> > If you are too immature or short-sighted to understand the
potential
> >consequences of sex and are unwill or unable to endure said consequences,
> >you shouldn't be having sex. If you do have sex and a child develops as
a
> >result, you should have to live with that and should have the respect for
> >the fetus/child to allow it a life, regardless of your stupidity.
>
Yes, pro-responsibility.
> Baby's are vessels for souls, the soul should find a place where
> it can grow and flourish. Why make it suffer in pergatory and have a
horrible
> exsistance? Let the soul go, it will find another body.
I don't think reincarnation is a certainty.
LadyNature
oh good!!! I actually had a huge argument with a friend of mine who didn't get
that being pissed about having never been born doesn't make any logical sense.
Troy
"Troy" <goof...@foofoo.fahfah> wrote in message
news:apnsr1$hj3$1...@news.tamerica.net...
>
> Ophanages have almost completely disappeared within the last 50 years.
>
I was referring to the US. I can never get it right the first time.
insaner
<RealizedN...@aol.com> wrote:
>Great post dude!
funny when i post this shit im a raving lunatic. welcome to last
year!
numquam intellegere potest
thefragile
thefragile
> I think if blood doesn't pour out of your gentials once a month
(figuartivly
> speaking), i don't think you should have any opinion that matters on
abortion.
Yeah because men dont have anything to do with women getting pregnant - its
the stork.
Men have every right to weigh in on any decision that is made.
> I think it is the mother's choice, i don't even think infanticide is
always a
> terrible thing.
So you wouldn't be fazed by a depressed mother smothering her newborn with a
pillow?
> I don't think I would get an abortion or kill my baby, but i
> don't think badly of a women who makes either choice in the CHILD'S BEST
> INTEREST.
I would think the child's best interests would be to stay alive. The
decision is in the woman's best interests and please don't delude yourself
into thinking otherwise.
> Better not flame me about the infanticide thing just cause it isn't
> the norm in america, many women all over the world will kill their newborn
if
> they feel they are born with an evil soul, or for many other reasons that
the
> mother may feel something is wrong with the baby. Of course it isn't
always
> done in the best interest of the baby, sometimes the reason s are quite
selfish
> (ie chinese people wanting to have boy babies, now there are too many
men).
Yeah, see above. All forms of killing; patracide, matracide, infantcide
whatever, they are all selfish by definition - i.e. you are taking the life
of someone-something else. The Chineese only began to prefer boys once the
one child policy was introduced. It is not entirely a cultural belief. Its
well recognised that when child numbers are limited (always in third world
or developing nations) that a male child is prefered because they provide
security for the parents in their old age.
I don't have anything against women aborting if that is what they want. What
I am against is people spouting mistruths regarding the motives behind it,
the effect it has on women, and the 'stats' re: birth control, and rape. One
of my close friends had an abortion a few months back, and I was appalled by
her blase attitude (it wasn't her first) when I asked why the hell they
weren't using birth control. My niece was a 'mistake' and so was her mother.
BTW I also know a woman who had twins after being raped, she kept them.
-- Kate
thefragile
The Propies Man
LadyNature wrote in message <20021029230539...@mb-mt.aol.com>...
>Jimmy:
>
>>If it is inherent in nature that
>>sex creates life,
>
>It is is also inherent in nature that sex creates pleasure. In some cases,
sex
>creates the sense of a deeper emotional/spiritual connection.
>
>Sex, especially, human sex, is about alot more than simply reproducing.
Would
>you suggest that infertile couples not bother with the whole sex thing
because
>the "natural" outcome is impossible?
You're just twisting my words. Did you really not understand my point when
I wrote it, or do you really need me to spell it out for you? Everything
you've said here has done nothing but stuff words into my mouth.
Jimmy
The Propies Man
LadyNature wrote in message <20021029233214...@mb-mt.aol.com>...
>>I'd be pretty pissed if I had been aborted...
>
>why? No really.. think about it? If you consider it logically, this doesn't
>even make any sense. You would simply remain in a state of non-being. There
>would be no *you*. In fact, there'd be no *you* who could even be upset.
How do you know?
Jimmy
Smoke & Mirrors
Re: Abortion anyone?
Group: alt.music.tool Date: Tue, Oct 29, 2002, 6:27pm (EST-1) From:
Mae...@tds.net (M.S.A. Straw)
> I don't actually know
anyone who's had an abortion (that I know of),
>Yeah you do.
--
>Maevele
cunt is definately art. regardless of the >adornments.-insaner
ditto
"Be like water my friend"
SomeSweetGravity
>From: "Chris Brightwell" cdb47(NOSPAM)@comcast.net
>Date: 10/29/2002 12:50 PM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <apmhtb$2ss5g$1...@ID-156512.news.dfncis.de>>> [...]
>> What's some of your opinions on it? [...]
>
> I'm not a woman, so I'll no doubt be told that my opinion is
>invalid. Whatever.
>
>pro-life. I'll explain.
>
>having an abortion. A lot of people see it as, "the easy way out," when in
>fact it is quite the opposite. I don't actually know anyone who's had an
>abortion (that I know of), but I've heard plenty of horror stories where
>would-be parents are forever depressed because they're forced to live with
>the, "What if ...?" syndrome. Things like, "Today would've been his 3rd
>birthday," and ... you get the idea. Abortion is not an easy decision.
>
> I think that abortion should be reserved for necessary cases - rape,
>incest, child molestation, etc. Some circumstance where the mother
>genuinely had no choice in the matter and was forced into the conception.
>
> I don't think that abortion should be used as any sort of birth
>control. If you voluntarily have sex and get pregnant, I do not think you
>should be allowed to have an abortion - no matter what. Adoption is always
>an option, but abortion should be completely out of the question.
>
> If you are too immature or short-sighted to understand the potential
>consequences of sex and are unwill or unable to endure said consequences,
>you shouldn't be having sex. If you do have sex and a child develops as a
>result, you should have to live with that and should have the respect for
>the fetus/child to allow it a life, regardless of your stupidity.
>
>to think through their actions beforehand.
>
>
>--
>chris
>-----
>AMTCode(v2): [Regular][TU][A5][L+][S ][B+][FMA][P+][CC]
>alt.music.tool info and faq : http://www.secondsun.net/amt/
>
>
I agree with this post.
Smoke & Mirrors
I think it should matter if the man doesn't want the child, or if he is
not ready for the child. If it's in the best interest of the child.
I think males have given themselves a bad name. Guys knocking up women
and then bailing out like fucking cowards leaving them to raise the kid
alone. Man's greed for self satisfaction is thick. Not much
discipline, control, or thought. I think we are at a period in our
circle of emotional evolution where lust over rules love. The masses
are becoming machines seeking self satisfaction, pleasure, and they want
it fast.
But it should matter. It takes two to have a child. Just because the
woman is the one conceiving the child doesn't mean the male shouldn't
have a say so, as if he doesn't matter, or as if doesn't care, as if he
doesn't have a soul, as if, as if, as if.
thefragile
thefragile
erin
> Chris:
>
> > If you choose to put
> >yourself in that situation, then deal with it.
>
> Well, choosing an abortion *is* dealing with it. Not dealing with it would
be
> to go into hard core denial and act like you're not pregnant. A few women
> actually do do this, and the results are catastrophic. Usually the baby
dies
> because of improper medical care, or else, the mother is so completely
> disassociated from her body and the experience, that she leaves the child
to
> die from exposure.
I think we hear of these instances because they're actually very rare, and
therefore, the media still considers them fantastic enough to warrant
coverage. IMHO.
>
> > Respecting that life (whenever you determine life to exist) would be
> >allowing it to thrive, regardless of your fuckups.
>
> I understand where you're coming from. But I have to say that this is
> incredibly naive. There are some lifes that are not worth living. And
sometimes
> it is the case that the respectful thing to do, with respects to human
dignity,
> is to kill someone instead.
Respectful to whom? The survivors?
>
> The issue is not simply life, but quality of life. As a child, my quality
of
> life sucked incredibly hard, and I was a wanted, planned child. Of course,
not
> every child forcibly imposed on a woman is doomed to a life of misery. But
you
> know, the odds are already stacked against them. Especially if there are
> inadequate facilities for helping the new mother, which is usually the
case.
>
> > If they think their actions through, then they have inheretly made
> >the decision to deal with the pregnancy in some humane and respectful
> >manner, have they not?
>
> Yes, and the problem is that you have dismissed the idea that abortion
could in
> fact be a humane and respectful thing.
Destroying a living thing against his/her will is never respectful. The
issues surrounding the discomfort or stress should be address first. If the
bathwater is dirty...
>
> I don't put any premium on life for the sake of life. It's the *quality*
of the
> life that counts.
>
> > So you would rather take away the opportunity to have a life at all?
> >Interesting.
>
> Sure. What's wrong with that?
The fact that some people believe this life is all there is. Atheists have
a lot more at stake re: abortion than religious conservatives (not that I'm
besmirching you, Lady, and calling you that!) But I'm sure you understand
my point, even if you don't agree.
Grateful that you chose to discuss these issues,
Erin
LadyNature
>
>Jimmy
It's a conceptual logical fact. No knowledge per se, needed.
Mike Smith
news:16781-3DB...@storefull-2196.public.lawson.webtv.net...
> Thought I would help calm the waters in here by talking a bit about
> abortion.
> What's some of your opinions on it? I think it's a personal decision.
I am pro-choice, but not pro-abortion. Women own their own bodies, just as
men do, and should retain control over them no matter what. But IMO
abortion should be considered a last resort, not a means of birth control.
--
Mike Smith
erin
"Mike Smith" <smi...@michaelsmithHATESSPAM.org> wrote in message
news:us0c0e4...@news.supernews.com...
I don't undestand this attempt at holding dual-positions. The only good
reason for being personally against abortion is a reason that demands we be
against other people choosing to have abortions. Why is abortion such a
difficult decision? I don't get it. Please explain it to me. If it's just a
blob of tissue, if it's not really a child, then it should be no more
difficult than choosing to have your appendix removed. Right?
If a person is honest, there is ultimately only one answer to the question.
Abortion is a difficult decision for one obvious reason--it is the killing
of an innocent baby, one's own child. "Fetus" is Latin for "offspring."
It's been chosen because we don't have as many attachments, emotionally, to
the term (as we do "offspring"). It's *not* true that "fetus" is employed
as the term-of-choice because it's "medically correct," otherwise we'd call
a pregnant woman "gravida" and a newborn child "neonate."
And if abortion doesn't kill children, why would someone be personally
opposed to it? If it does kill children, why would someone defend another's
right to do it? The position of being personally against abortion but
favoring another's right to abortion is therefore self-contradictory and
morally baffling. It's like saying--exactly like saying--we're personally
against child abuse, but we defend our neighbor's right to abuse his child
if that is his choice. I'll say it again: The only good reason for being
personally against abortion is a reason that demands we be against other
people choosing to have abortions.
Saying you're anti-abortion but pro-choice is oxymoronic. While I take
seriously the notion that everyone is entitled to his/her own opinion, I
think it's important to be upfront about what you believe, and to have
clarity about the way you express it. Otherwise you believe mush, and that
dog don't hunt.
Cheers,
Erin
The Propies Man
Jimmy
insaner wrote in message ...
>On 30 Oct 2002 18:05:02 GMT, ladyn...@aol.com (LadyNature) wrote:
>
>>>How do you know?
>>>
>>>Jimmy
>>
>>It's a conceptual logical fact. No knowledge per se, needed.
>
>
>i would have to disagree. it assumes so much, i wouldnt know where to
>start.
>
>
>
>numquam intellegere potest
Mr. Hand
Apparently a few years back some Christian group was having an abortion protest
right outside Disneyland. I dont think there was an abortion clinic there
either. They were just picketing up and down Harbor Blvd (one of the streets
next to DL). But thing is that on some of their signs they had giant posters of
an aborted fetus. I think thats kinda messed up. I mean there are little kids
everywhere. That could ruin someone's day or something.
Mr. Hand
"There he goes. One of God's own prototypes. Some kind of high powered mutant
never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to
die."
LadyNature
>I wrote it, or do you really need me to spell it out for you? Everything
>you've said here has done nothing but stuff words into my mouth.
>
>Jimmy
oh, spare me. Noone's twisting any words. I understood your point and I
countered with another point.
LadyNature
>start.
No, it doesn't. Even if you invoke spirits and souls and all that nonesense,
for all intents and purposes, that *still* doesn't really matter.
It simply doesn't make any good sense to have a negative attitude to your
pre-existent state of non-existent. What's there to be upset about?? Is this
something you can quantify and qualify? I didn't think so.
LadyNature
>therefore, the media still considers them fantastic enough to warrant
>coverage. IMHO.
>
Well, of course they are rare. Most women who are pregnant acknowledge the
pregnancy in some way. Aborting it is one acknowledgement of the pregnancy.
>Respectful to whom? The survivors?
To the dead, of course.
>Destroying a living thing against his/her will is never respectful. The
>issues surrounding the discomfort or stress should be address first. If the
>bathwater is dirty...
Ok, unborn fetus things have no will. So it's kind of a non-issue here. Just
like talking about innocent unborns doesn't make much sense either. Unborns
can't be morally culpable for anything, so they're not innocent or guilty of
anything.
>The fact that some people believe this life is all there is.
sure, and those some people shouldn't be imposing their views on others.
>Atheists have
>a lot more at stake re: abortion than religious conservatives (not that I'm
>besmirching you, Lady, and calling you that!) But I'm sure you understand
>my point, even if you don't agree.
I understand your point. But no, I don't agree with it.
>Grateful that you chose to discuss these issues,
>
>Erin
Anytime!
LadyNature
>
um... No. Fatal logical flaw.
Imagine a pot of red, and a pot of pink. To change red to pink, you add white.
You add one drop of white to the red pot each time.
Question: When does Red become Pink?
Is there a line you can point to???
No.
Are red and pink the same colors??
No.
defdans
> > What's some of your opinions on it? [...]
>
> I'm not a woman, so I'll no doubt be told that my opinion is
> invalid. Whatever.
i'm not really going to jump into this discussion too much for various
reasons. i just want to state, for what it's worth (read:nothing),
that i agree with brightwell and jimmy. carry on.
defdans
Mike Smith
news:sRWv9.16960$wG.6...@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net...
>
> "Mike Smith" <smi...@michaelsmithHATESSPAM.org> wrote in message
> news:us0c0e4...@news.supernews.com...
> > "Smoke & Mirrors" <Cessat...@webtv.net> wrote in message
> > news:16781-3DB...@storefull-2196.public.lawson.webtv.net...
> >
> > > Thought I would help calm the waters in here by talking a bit about
> > > abortion.
> > > What's some of your opinions on it? I think it's a personal
decision.
> >
> > I am pro-choice, but not pro-abortion. Women own their own bodies, just
> as
> > men do, and should retain control over them no matter what. But IMO
> > abortion should be considered a last resort, not a means of birth
control.
>
> reason for being personally against abortion is a reason that demands we
be
> against other people choosing to have abortions.
Nonsense. Believing that an act should be *permitted* is not the same as
saying that that act is a *good idea*. I believe that anyone should be able
to take any drug they want to. That doesn't mean I advocate everyone going
around stoned all the time. I believe that gambling should be legal. That
doesn't mean I believe one should gamble away one's life savings, just
because you're *allowed* to. It's legal to lick an ice-cold flagpole; that
doesn't make it a recommended practice.
> If it's just a
> blob of tissue, if it's not really a child, then it should be no more
> difficult than choosing to have your appendix removed. Right?
Wrong. It's not a child, but certainly it has the potential to *become* a
child (after all, that's what it's *for*), and so it seems to me that
destroying it, even if one ultimately decides to so for what may be
perfectly legitimate reasons, should still give at least some pause to
anyone who finds the concept of life more appealing than the concept of
death.
And it's easy for you (or me, for that matter) to talk about how "easy" or
"difficult" it should be, since neither of us is ever going to become
pregnant, now, isn't it?
--
Mike Smith
insaner
<RealizedN...@aol.com> wrote:
>Exactamundo!
>
kinda like your (and my) essay.
numquam intellegere potest
Mike Smith
news:WnYv9.4658$qD2.8...@news20.bellglobal.com...
>
> If someone asks you what you think about abortion, I can
> easily imagine that you answer something like "I wouldn't personally do it
> but I'd let others make their own choice". Of course, the reverse isn't
> true, because if you'd do it, you can't see a problem with someone else
> doing it.
Indeed. One could easily substitute "drug use", "burning the flag", "eating
meat", etc. People trying to cram their beliefs down each other's throats
is one of the leading causes of death in some parts of the world; maybe we'd
be a little better off not doing quite so much of it, eh?
--
Mike Smith
LadyNature
>a person when they pop out.
>Babies do dream before birth.
>Judy
Oh, I agree. Personally, I sidestep the whole person debate. We can barely tell
when conscious walking/talking people are people much less these potential
pre-people people! That's why I leave it at self-determination/biological
independence.
Smagmapig333
>From: ladyn...@aol.com (LadyNature)
>Date: 10/30/02 6:14 PM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <20021030181402...@mb-ff.aol.com>
so it doesn't matter if they are still a person you'll just overlook that small
point.
"how conveeeenient"
church lady pig
LadyNature
>small
>point.
>"how conveeeenient"
lol.. as it happens, I do think they are people. I just think that a woman
still has a right to kill it even if it is a person.
ever yours,
naturally,
~Lady Nature
"Life is OT" -- Jn
insaner
>>How do you know?
>>
>>Jimmy
>
>It's a conceptual logical fact. No knowledge per se, needed.
i would have to disagree. it assumes so much, i wouldnt know where to
start.
numquam intellegere potest
LadyNature
>Black then white are....
care to back that up with some real argument rather than cute lyrical quotes?
Judy
"Smagmapig333" <smagma...@aol.communism> wrote in message
news:20021030183215...@mb-fo.aol.com...
> >Subject: Re: Abortion anyone?
> >From: ladyn...@aol.com (LadyNature)
> >Date: 10/30/02 5:59 PM Eastern Standard Time
> >Message-id: <20021030175947...@mb-ff.aol.com>
>
That's not an argument or cute. Try again.
Judy
Judy
Abortion aside, what would you do if you were in control of the world,
understood the population trends in Africa and India, understood the
implications, and it was thirty years ago.
Hint:
Develop the aids virus is a possible answer.
Judy
erin
> >I think we hear of these instances because they're actually very rare,
and
> >therefore, the media still considers them fantastic enough to warrant
> >coverage. IMHO.
> >
>
> Well, of course they are rare. Most women who are pregnant acknowledge the
> pregnancy in some way. Aborting it is one acknowledgement of the
pregnancy.
>
> >Respectful to whom? The survivors?
>
> To the dead, of course.
>
> >Destroying a living thing against his/her will is never respectful. The
> >issues surrounding the discomfort or stress should be address first. If
the
> >bathwater is dirty...
>
> Ok, unborn fetus things have no will. So it's kind of a non-issue here.
Just
> like talking about innocent unborns doesn't make much sense either.
Unborns
> can't be morally culpable for anything, so they're not innocent or guilty
of
> anything.
You could say the same thing about a person in a two-week coma. There is no
recognizable conscience, no product of work or other benefit to society, and
a total reliance on persons and machines for food, water and possibly air.
Yet we still consider this type of creature a person. And we'd still punish
harshly any other person who destroyed an invalid.
>
> >The fact that some people believe this life is all there is.
>
> sure, and those some people shouldn't be imposing their views on others.
Agreed, but it's obvious that we all infer life to have some value, worth
protecting. And abortion does destroy a living thing, even if you're not
ready to extend the label of "personhood" onto that living thing. Some
living creature is being destroyed, otherwise there wouldn't be a
controversy.
>
> >Atheists have
> >a lot more at stake re: abortion than religious conservatives (not that
I'm
> >besmirching you, Lady, and calling you that!) But I'm sure you
understand
> >my point, even if you don't agree.
>
> I understand your point. But no, I don't agree with it.
I'm sure you agree that atheists view this life as the sum total of their
existences. I presume you disagree that such a view would justify the
prohibition of procured miscarriages. I agree that such a view per se does
not justify a prohibition on procured miscarriages.
< snip >
Cheers,
Erin
[P.S. Did you reach a beneficial arrangement with your employer?]
retrovertigo
news:sRWv9.16960$wG.6...@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net...
>
> And if abortion doesn't kill children, why would someone be personally
> opposed to it? If it does kill children, why would someone defend
another's
> right to do it? The position of being personally against abortion but
> favoring another's right to abortion is therefore self-contradictory and
> morally baffling. It's like saying--exactly like saying--we're personally
> against child abuse, but we defend our neighbor's right to abuse his child
> if that is his choice. I'll say it again: The only good reason for being
> personally against abortion is a reason that demands we be against other
> people choosing to have abortions.
>
> Saying you're anti-abortion but pro-choice is oxymoronic. While I take
> seriously the notion that everyone is entitled to his/her own opinion, I
> think it's important to be upfront about what you believe, and to have
> clarity about the way you express it. Otherwise you believe mush, and
that
> dog don't hunt.
Many people (including myself) do believe that a fetus is a human being and
thus are morally opposed to it (anti-abortion), yet at the same time do not
believe that the government has the right to pass legislation forbidding
what women do with their bodies (pro-choice).
Your analogy about the neighbor beating his child is not at all 'exactly'
the same, the laws that forbid a neighbor from beating his/her child are not
laws that legislate what s/he does with his/her own body. My personal stance
of taking moral objection to abortion, yet being pro-choice is not an
oxymoron nor contradictory: I consider the liberty to do what you want with
your own body to be more important than the life of a fetus.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Erin
>
- retrovertigo
Smagmapig333
>Message-id: <20021030183607...@mb-ff.aol.com>
>
>>try this: you are an idiot.
>>
>
>try this: you are an idiot
>
>naturally,
>~Lady Nature
i'm rubber your glue. i said it first.