Alan Graham
Subterranean Cinema
mostly due to a lot of things stated here about you by Patricia Butler,
author of "Angels Dance and Angels Die". She's not too hard to spot
among the people posting. You can find all of her words through Google
group searches (worded just the right way). Here is one for example,
I think its fairly recent:
________________________________________________________
Hyacinth wrote:
> Here's a quote -- are you reading this, PB? -- from Alan Graham, Jim's
> brother-in-law. Perhaps this will answer your query as to why Jim was
> never discussed with his parents. It just didn't seem appropriate.
> "To this day we never mourned Jim as a family,we all did it in our own
> silent way. The Admiral never talked about it and everyone followed suit
> out of respect. I still mourn Jim because his death was unresolved and no
> one ever tried to investigate the suspicious circumstances of his last
> hours. The Jim that the Morrisons knew died the day he graduated from UCLA
> and the Jim they did not want to know died in Paris, and that in its own
> weired way provided the perfect reason not to talk about him ever again.
> The Admiral is highly intelligent and educated, a math freak who was
> always top of his class. Jim was smarter and more intelligent than his
> father who knew it, so Jim died when he "threw away a bright future". The
> Jim who emerged was someone who could not even talk to his dad like most
> young men back then who did not want to keep on
> going to war like their fathers before them."
Patricia Butler wrote:
Quoting Alan Graham now makes you the complete rube. Jim Morrison
hated Alan Graham for many reasons, not the least of which was that
Alan used to beat Jim's sister. The family couldn't get rid of Graham
fast enough when Anne finally wised up and dumped his sorry ass. After
the popularity of the Doors movie, Graham tried to cash in on his
tenuous past relationship with the family by making what was meant to
be a series of videos on Jim's life, purporting to be one of Jim's best
friends even though, in reality, Jim couldn't stand to be near the man.
Luckily Graham screwed over several venders in the course of
funding/making/distributing the first silly video and he went to jail;
no further videos were made. He also tried to flog the sad, sad Cliff
Marsden as Jim's son, claiming that "the family" (of which Graham
hasn't been a member for decades) embraced Marsden as their own; the
family decidedly does not. Graham is a piece of shit on the lowest
order, an abuser, a liar, and a criminal. I'm not surprised he appeals
to you.
__________________________________________________________________
Here's another one from last year:
_____________________________________________________________________
Patricia Butler wrote:
Jim's *EX* brother-in-law. Alan Graham is one of the shadiest
characters anyone would ever want to meet. He's the one who engineered
the whole "Cliff Marsden is Cliff Morrison" thing. He tried to get
what was meant to be a series of videos about Jim off the ground but
ended up in jail after the first one. He once made the comment that
the only reason Jim didn't like him was because he (Alan) used to beat
Anne. When I was doing my book, he offered to tell me for a price --
all kinds of nasty things about that whore Pamela. When I told him
that was't the kind of book I was writing, without missing a beat he
offered to tell me -- for a price -- all kinds of lovely thing about
that angel Pamela. Get the picture?
____________________________________________________________________
Those are some VERY harsh and nasty words about you, Alan (she has them
for everyone, youll get used to it). There have been many others
about you, all the way back to 1997 (when her booklet was published and
she first infected this newsgroup with her presence). In fact, its
impossible to mention your name here without Patricia Butler tearing
into you (funny how now that you are here in your own defense, she isnt
quite so rabid about that). Rather than quote them all here, just
search this group through Google and youll find them laid out in a row.
Here was another interesting exchange:
____________________________________________________________
Seagnaid wrote:
>Gee patricia you are losing your touch. Again you seem to like to bring ALan
>Graham up alot. I think you are the one who perhaps condones his actions...
>I however don't even know the man. As for what Cliff and I talk about, we
>talk
>about life, unlike yourself who dregs up the same bbullshit time after time.
>But refuses to answer the real issues.
>But perhas things wil be different for you when we poat the interview and
>finish the Butler busted article...Then we will see whos calling who a
>fraud..
>Pfeff
Ah, you mean how you "finish" it without any input from the subject,
without asking the subject any questions, and with an illegal tape
recording of a woman who said she wouldn't give any information
because the person on the phone -- who turned out to be illegally
taping her -- sounded so evasive and suspicious? Yes, your
journalistic integrity is just enough to make Murrow weep from the
beyond, Pfeff.
_____________________________________________________________
That's another major thing on Patricia Butler's resume: hypocrisy. In
that last paragraph, she is complaining about being "illegally taped"
(it appears that Kerry Humphreys from DCM recorded her phone
conversation and transcribed the interview or something), while on the
other hand, she just recently said in reply to you that she has a
recording of you harassing her on the phone (yes, I admit my curiosity
about her responses got the better of me after Alan showed up and I had
to see what she said back to him). If you did, in fact, call her at
any time, and if you didnt know she was recording you, then that would
of course make such recordings of you, by that exact same definition
she used several years ago, illegal (I dont think the laws have changed
in the meantime). Im sure we will all enjoy hearing Patricia produce
those recordings as proof of her harassment accusations against Alan
Graham.
So, what do you say in response to all of her angry words about you,
Alan?
bigg...@yahoo.com
would love to do it in the public arena letting the lies fall where
they may.
I do not know her and I have never talked to her. , ever. That is the
first outright "Black Lie" she has told, so lets proceed..
"calling mizz Butler", "calling Mizz Butler' are you ready for your
close-up?
Al
Bruce Coryell
bigg...@yahoo.com wrote:
She replied to you at 3:13 today - scroll down.
She seems pretty threatened by your presence - possibly you have some
truths about Jim she doesn't want us to know and directly contradict her
fabrications and lies.
Let the light shine forth, so to speak. The truth will come out in the
end, as it has already begun to.
Hyacinth
said not too long ago that you had never heard of (gulp) Patricia Butler.
Then I read on this newsgroup that she was perpetuating/creating libelous
statements about you and I hit the roof. She is a very bitter fat old
woman who loves to argue and put everyone down down down down to her
level. She is worse than anyone you will ever meet, so be forewarned. I
wish you much luck and will be checking this newsgroup out to cheer you
on!!!
Love,
Hy
Subterranean Cinema
her several year reign of terror and ignorance (only Danny Sugerman
found out about it and called her on it, up to now with Alan Graham's
appearance). Its only right that the people she accuses of these
charges should know about them and be able to respond to them. Maybe
next, someone can get Diane Gardiner to answer Patricia Butler's claim
that she is a liar, this title being bestowed on Gardiner based on
Butler's claim that she asked for money to be interviewed, so therefore
her word isnt good (even though it was plenty good for Jerry Hopkins)
Or how about Alain Ronay, who she claims is a weeping sissyboy who
tells lies for money (except, of course, to her in a phone
conversation, when he suddenly decided to tell the complete truth).
Ronay charges for interviews, did he give Patricia Butler one for free
out of the goodness of his heart?
Speak up, Patricia, youre kinda hard to hear tonight.
Subterranean Cinema
Considering that it usually takes her 3 minutes and 13 seconds to
respond to a posting at any given time of the day or night, thats a
very long pause for her.
>> Let the light shine forth, so to speak. The truth will come out in the
end, as it has already begun to.
Indeed, and thats all that anyone should be after, beyond any petty
personal biases: the TRUTH, period. Sometimes you have to get a few
perspectives of an event, Rashomon style, and put them together to find
the "truth". Patricia Butler interviews one person over the phone, and
suddenly whatever they stated becomes a "fact", as long as it agrees
with the way she wants to portray the story (ie, Pam friendly). Butler
claims that some lady (also named "Pamela") accused Graham of beating
his wife (and that Morrison hated him because of it), and suddenly its
fact, he beat his wife and Morrison hated him, and this story was
repeated as such by MizScarlet yesterday in the Lizard Lounge, giving
Butler as the source for it (why is she a liar most of the time, but
credible in this instance). So, other than Patricia Butler's claims
(which she admits were stated to her secondhand from another source, as
seems to often be the case with her "facts"), does anyone have any real
evidence that Alan Graham beat Anne Morrison? Has Anne EVER stated it
directly to anyone? Does anyone deny that he was married to her from
(approximately) 1967-1987? And assuming that he did hit her, would
that automatically make him a liar when it comes to Morrison?
If youre going to make such incredibly vicious accusations about
someone, then you need to get some real evidence to back your word up.
I could state as a fact that Patricia Butler wears her brother's hand
me down combat boots and has a leather jockstrap with a battery
operated dildo attachment (from Acme), but that doesnt necessarily make
it the truth (then again the mental image does fit her abrasive verbal
style to a tee, hah). I think the real truth about her is much more
pathetic, apparently she was raised with the mentality that you can
bully your way through an argument if facts fail you, and as everyone
knows about bullies, they are almost always hiding major emotional
wounds inside there underneath the hatred, and their way of dealing
with it is to lash out blindly and pass some of their black karma off
onto other people. I guess she got that masculine side from her
brothers, the infamous Butler Boys. (lolol dave)
Thank you, Alan, for coming to the group, I welcome you, and I know
many others do too, even though they are maybe too timid to post and
get involved in the verbal brawls (and who can blame them, most of us
just want to talk about our love of The Doors). Once Butler manages
to muster up the courage to attempt to prove her VERY serious
accusations about you, this will be a fascinating thread indeed. Good
luck. :)
bigg...@yahoo.com
I have noticed in the past that your output was prolific but now seems
to have stopped.I will be waiting here at the chessboard to engage you
in the match of your life. We have an audience of interested and highly
intelligent people, who are willing to give even a vicious shut-in like
you the opportunity to face your accuser, contrary to how you have
dealt with me. "I taunt you a second time"
Speak! Speak!
Stay! Stay!
Sit! Sit!
I remain at your servicing,
Ever so insincerely
A R Graham (aka The Paladin)
Is everybody in?
Is everybodt in?
The ceremony is about to begin.
Subterranean Cinema
"Im sorry, I got confused because everyone keeps mentioning the war." -
Basil Fawlty
StalkerStopper
suspects/con artists.
Has anybody heard the story about the wind and the sun betting each other
that she could make the weary traveler walking below take off his jacket?
The wind blew and blew and blew and the weary traveler held on to his
jacket even tighter. Then the sun shone - gently, warmly, - and the weary
traveler took off his jacket. Who won the bet? Why?
It might be a good idea if some of the hags here took heed and followed
the sun's example instead of acting like the wind.
Bravo for Subterranean Cinema's good sense as demonstrated in his posts
today.
Welcome aboard, Alan!!
Patricia
This is a lot of big talk from a little man who (1) hasn't read my
book; (2) has spent several years doing nothing but talking to and
about me, including lying his ass off; (3) has claimed (for the 5983th
time in the past few years) within the last 48 hours that he was going
go completely ignore me, but is now, once again, doing nothing but
talking about me.
Some of us have lives. Understandably Don isn't one of those people,
but others of us do lead real lives offline. The fact that you don't
get immediate attention to your hostile tantrums (and let's face it --
that's all you're after is attention) doesn't mean your message is
being ignored. You're just not important enough to take up all my time.
Patricia
bigg...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Mizz Butler
> I have noticed in the past that your output was prolific but now seems
> to have stopped.I will be waiting here at the chessboard to engage you
> in the match of your life. We have an audience of interested and highly
> intelligent people, who are willing to give even a vicious shut-in like
> you the opportunity to face your accuser, contrary to how you have
> dealt with me. "I taunt you a second time"
> Speak! Speak!
> Stay! Stay!
> Sit! Sit!
>
> I remain at your servicing,
> Ever so insincerely
> A R Graham (aka The Paladin)
>
>
> Is everybody in?
> Is everybodt in?
> The ceremony is about to begin.
I have answered several of your messages today. Maybe if you weren't
so busy posting bullshit you'd have a few minutes to actual read the
responses.
bigg...@yahoo.com
or request stories.That is the real reason I am here, but it is also
fun to vanquish a few demons and witches in the process.
I have posted on 4 other threads ,stories about Jim, Andy, Anna,and the
Morrisons and would be interested to hear your feedback.
Sincerely
Al Graham
bigg...@yahoo.com
sources, the credible evidence to support your claims and accusations
about me?
Come to the debate and answer the questions, dont just do a drive-by
and yell insults.
This is the place for the debate.
We all promise not to throw water on you and melt you.
a r graham
Subterranean Cinema
______________________________________________________
While I tried to speak with as many people as possible to gather
information for this book, there are those I did not interview.
Patricia Keneally felt she had said all she wanted to say on the
subject of Jim and Pamela in her book Strange Days. John Densmore had
also published a book, Riders on the Storm, about his life with The
Doors, while I felt rendered pursuit of him for an additional interview
redundant. I did not speak to anyone who demanded a list of questions
in advance (a request which usually means that the person is concerned
with squaring his or her story with others who may be asked the same
questions; I was not interested in a collaborative effort to rewrite
the past), nor did I speak to anyone who demanded cash payment in
exchange for their memories. For example, one woman (SC notes: Diane
Gardiner) who was said to have been a close friend of Pamela's
initially said she would talk to me only if I were willing to meet her
price. When she was told that is is my policy not to pay for
information, she said in that case these memories of her friend were
"just too painful to discuss".
_________________________________________________
Is that the one you mean, little girl? The thin little 200 page fluff
novel that looks like it should be sitting in the Young Adult section
of the library (if a public library stocks it at all, which is very
rare). Yeah, Ive got it here now, thanks to Dave. But you knew that
already, didnt ya Duke?
Now, back to these recordings you allege that you have of Alan Graham
harassing you ...
Subterranean Cinema
and yell insults.
That's exactly her tactic, every time. You really do have her number.
StalkerStopper
and yell insults.
That's exactly her tactic, every time. You really do have her number.
Be ready for her to answer "That's because I GAVE him my number!" LOL,
LOL, RTFL, RTFL
bigg...@yahoo.com
I never spoke about you untill you posted lies about me,and now people
can see what an unbalanced liar you are by your jittery responses.
Get off the stage or we will bring out the hook.
The Paladin
You have been Bested, and must now leave the field.
Subterranean Cinema
little booklet, so I thought Id quote another paragraph for her
benefit:
____________________________________________________
The Coursons either dismissed or could not accept the theory that their
daughter had taken her own life, and they continued trying to make a
case for murder, naming at least one person they felt strongly could
have been the culprit, a theory that went nowhere. Jim's erstwhile
brother-in-law, Allan (sp?) Graham, a few years ago claimed that the
Coursons had tried to have him indicted for Pamela's murder at one
point because, Graham says, the week before Pamela died he had
threatened her life. As it is unclear why Graham, who seemed to have
been the object of nothing but Jim's contempt during his life, would
have had any contact at all with Pamela three years after Jim's death,
his claims regarding the Coursons' accusations appear to be baseless.
_____________________________________________
Just wanted to assure you that I am in fact reading your little book,
Patricia. Arent ya happy now?
Subterranean Cinema
Patricia's book:
_______________________________________________________
Stories immediately began to spring up around the cause of Jim's death,
the most prevalent being that he had died of a drug overdose. "I
thought he OD'd", Mirandi Babitz recalls of her initial reaction to the
news of Jim's death. "It was like everybody was ODing at that point."
But there was no basis for this speculation beyond the fact that Jim
had been a rock star, and didnt all rock stars die in some exciting,
provocative way? No story seemed too far fetched for anyone to believe
(including the scurrilous rumor that Pamela had murdered Jim, to which
Siddons responded, "To me there was absolutely never one-thousandth of
a percentage of a chance that that was the case; she loved the man"),
no conspiracy theory too tangled to be assigned credibility. Yet no
matter how ridiculous the speculation became, the only story people
seemed quick to dismiss was the official version: that Jim, asthmatic
since childhood, had suffered a respiratory infection that triggered
his condition, leading to heart failure.
_________________________________________________
"No basis for the speculation beyond the fact that Jim was a rock star"
... sure, all of those people like Alain Ronay, Agnes Varda, Diane
Gardiner, Danny Sugerman, Jerry Hopkins (who mocks the "official
version" by exactly that same name in his Lizard King book), Marianne
Faithfull, who claimed he died of a drug overdose. "No basis for
speculation" at all, right Patricia? And that quote from Mirandi
Babitz, I wonder, does she still think Jim overdosed? You were kinda
vague about that for some reason.
Yeah, Im enjoying studying your book, little woman. That you can
count on.
Nothing V
sub...@aol.com says...
> Is that the one you mean, little girl? The thin little 200 page fluff
> novel that looks like it should be sitting in the Young Adult section
> of the library (if a public library stocks it at all, which is very
> rare). Yeah, Ive got it here now, thanks to Dave.
Dave thought it was well written.
> But you knew that
> already, didnt ya Duke?
>
> Now, back to these recordings you allege that you have of Alan Graham
> harassing you ...
>
LOL
I thought you were going to ignore Patricia. What happened, Don?
--
Nothing V
Nothing V
sub...@aol.com says...
I thought you were going to ignore her, Don.
--
Nothing V
Nothing V
bigg...@yahoo.com says...
> Mizz Butler
> I have noticed in the past that your output was prolific but now seems
> to have stopped.I will be waiting here at the chessboard to engage you
> in the match of your life. We have an audience of interested and highly
> intelligent people, who are willing to give even a vicious shut-in like
> you the opportunity to face your accuser, contrary to how you have
> dealt with me. "I taunt you a second time"
You have only been here for 5 seconds. How have you had time to form an
opinion about the quality of people on this newsgroup? Or is it because
you are being welcomed in w/open arms? Dont get too excited about it.
Its not who you are, its who you ARE NOT. You are not Butler, & that is
your only saving grace here.
--
Nothing V
Nothing V
sub...@aol.com says...
>
> Yeah, Im enjoying studying your book, little woman. That you can
> count on.
>
>
I thought you were going to ignore Patricia. Didnt you just try to get
everyone here to join you in ignoring Patricia?
--
Nothing V
Subterranean Cinema
quoted earlier from the Afterword to your book, where by your own
admission, you were referring to Diane Gardiner when you stated:
___________________________________________
For example, one woman who was said to have been a close friend of
Pamela's initially said she would talk to me only if I were willing to
meet her price. When she was told that is is my policy not to pay for
information, she said in that case these memories of her friend were
"just too painful to discuss".
_______________________________________________
Isnt it true that you are referring to Gardiner in that statement? If
you say that she "was said to have been a close friend of Pamela's"
(ie, hinting that maybe the mystery woman wasnt really such friends
with her), then why is it that you state at the beginning of Chapter
16:
____________________________________________________
Bill Siddons doesnt remember seeing Pamela again for months after they
parted at the airport that night in 1971. "She came back and
disappeared," he says. With the help of her friend, publicist Diane
Gardiner, Pamela had done exactly that.
_____________________________________________________
Then you go on to describe how Diane and Pam hooked up with Ellen
Sander, right after her return from Paris. You also quote Diane
Gardiner, but once again you do it through a second hand source (named
Randy Ralston) on page 207.
So, Patricia, why is it that you failed to NAME the "one woman who was
said to have been close friend of Pamela's" in the afterword, a woman
who was by your own admissions on this newsgroup, Diane Gardiner.
However, in the actual story of the book, you readily admit that she
was Pamela's close friend, and then you go on to quote her alleged
words through a hearsay source, because you refused to pay her money
for a direct interview (and therefore she cant be believed). Do you
consider that solid journalism? Did you use anything BUT second hand
hearsay stories in your research? If someone tells you "I talked to
George Bush once and he told me that he molests his dogs out on the
ranch", would you consider that a solid quote and tell the world
"George Bush has admitted in the past that he molests collies"? Well,
that is exactly what you did in your "research", over and over and
over, and thats EXACTLY how you twisted the truth in this amusing
little booklet of yours.
Keep in mind that Patricia has also stated here that Diane is well
known for "stretching the truth" (though as usual she doesnt say who
else is supposed to know this about Diane besides her), and that her
attempt to get payment for an interview was further proof that her word
isnt believable, specifically her credibility in her statements to
Jerry Hopkins that Pamela told her that Jim overdosed on her heroin.
No mention of that quote in the book, because according to Butler,
Diane's word isnt credible on that count because she's only out for
money. No other explanation for why an admitted very close friend of
Pamela Courson (and the one who met her on returning from Paris) would
make up such a huge lie about Morrison overdosing on Pam's heroin.
Ditto Alain Ronay. Ditto Agnes Varda. According to Patricia Butler,
all of them are lying for money.
Subterranean Cinema
time in a row, then Im gonna send YOU back to Ignoreland again
yourself. Grow up and get over what I said three days ago, since I
stated earlier in this very thread that I stopped ignoring her when
Alan Graham showed up and challenged her to a duel. Now its essential
to read what Patricia says in response to him (if she ever does). Do
you get it now, clueless? Should everyone stop posting and give you
time to catch the fuck up?
Here's a thought, Nothing: maybe if you try staying silent, reading
the entire thread, and catching up on what's going on BEFORE you jump
in with your irrelevant little trolling snipes, then maybe you could
contribute something to the discussion (yes dear, there is a topic
being discussed here, and its not me). Try taking your face out of
Butler's lap for half a minute and opening your eyes. And if you dont
want to talk about the thread's topic (which appears to be "Alan
Graham", who is also participating in the discussion), then kindly stop
being such a whiny, irrelevant little dyke and fuck off back to
Lurkerland where you belong.
thanks for your cooperation, dear.
Nothing V
sub...@aol.com says...
> Dear, if you post "I thought you were going to ignore her" one more
> time in a row, then Im gonna send YOU back to Ignoreland again
> yourself.
Then listen up.
I thought you were going to ignore her!
I knew you couldnt do it. Everybody knew you couldnt do it. You never
have & you never will.
You keep talking about ignoring people you dont like, but you never do
ignore them. You threaten it over & over again, but you NEVER DO IT. Its
incredibly funny.
> Grow up and get over what I said three days ago, since I
> stated earlier in this very thread that I stopped ignoring her when
> Alan Graham showed up and challenged her to a duel.
Where did you state that? I didnt read anything like that in this
thread. Maybe I missed it, but I just browsed through all your posts in
this thread & I didnt see anything like that.
> Now its essential
> to read what Patricia says in response to him (if she ever does). Do
> you get it now, clueless? Should everyone stop posting and give you
> time to catch the fuck up?
>
Im so caught up that I predicted that you would not be able to ignore
Patricia (or me) before you even got done proclaiming that you were
going to do exactly that.
--
Nothing V
Subterranean Cinema
attention again, and I guess since you are so excited about me
acknowledging you, then youre welcome.
Now, if you want to comment on the things Ive posted regarding the
credibility of Alan Graham vs the credibility of Patricia Butler (which
is the topic on this particular thread), then Ill continue to read your
postings, and Ill even reply to you when you talk about interesting,
relevant things, and Ill do it in a polite manner as long as you do the
same. Otherwise, if you keep sniping at me over silly things like
this, then I will ignore you again. Im here to discuss Morrison
related issues and questions, and other than being a very devoted fan
who wants to know the truth, Im not a Morrison related issue. So lets
stick to the topics and stop sniping at each other, allright? If you
cant defend Butler without attacking me, then you arent defending her
at all.
Hyacinth
Back to talking about the real reason we're here.
Bruce Coryell
Ooooo, I bet she LOVES the fact that you're quoting her copyrighted
material without permission. But it's garbage anyway, so doesn't matter.
bigg...@yahoo.com
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bigg...@yahoo.com Jun 12, 8:30 am show options
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From: "bigga...@yahoo.com" <bigga...@yahoo.com> - Find messages by this
author
Date: 12 Jun 2005 05:30:19 -0700
Local: Sun,Jun 12 2005 8:30 am
Subject: Andy Morrison.
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Andrew Lee Morrison lives in Hawaii and comes back to San Diego about
twice a year to visit his parents. He rides his bike to the beach early
every morning and afternoon and often drops by to visit me and to
remember good times.
We go back to 1966 in London where I met and married his sister
Anna.Andy was 17 years old and we had only good times then, and all of
us including the The Admiral and his wife had no idea that Jim was
famous.
We remember Jim and always with deep affection even though we discuss
his warts we always leave each other with fond memories rekindled.
We discussed the trial in the Doors lawsuit and he said that Ray had
turned out to be grubby slimy slug who just wanted to make the money
Robbie just wanted the band to play and had gone along, and that john
is the one who turned out to have the most integrity of them all.
The Morrisons had reluctantly gone along to support John and to try to
preseve the original image of Jim but Ray brought an aged English
rocker who now makes the band look like the "Munsters" (my metaphor).
In 1980 Bill Graham music promoter and owner of 'Winterland' wanted to
exploit the commercial aspects of the doors image so he offered the
Estate a deal to produce Elvis-like mass merchandizing, belts, lamp
shades, glowing velvet paintings, gaudy shit that would have made
Liberace run away screaming. Ray was jumping up and down like a monkey
on crack and when Pams father (who was executor of the estate at the
time) said no to the offer.
(God bless him) Ray was pissed. Ray has always wanted to exploit the
Door's and I am compelled to say that any serious buisnessman would
give the same advice, which is to "exploit the product to it's maximun
potential" If you regard it as a buisness that is.
I was banned from the lizzard lounge for being dis-respectful to Jim,
Let us compare the two.
Alan R Graham
Reply
bigg...@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: alt.music.the-doors
From: "bigga...@yahoo.com" <bigga...@yahoo.com> - Find messages by this
author
Date: 12 Jun 2005 22:15:37 -0700
Local: Mon,Jun 13 2005 1:15 am
Subject: Re: Oliver Stone's THE DOORS
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original | Remove | Report Abuse
I met with Oliver Stone who had read some of the stories I have told
here and had seen "Morrison the Rock Opera" and wanted me to meet Val
Kilmer which I did for a couple of days and told him some of the same
stories,
Kilmer is now a great actor (Tombestone ect.) and he was a very good
actor back then but not in this Movie.Val played the onstage dramatic
version of Jim, but Stone had him play the same character all the time,
a sort of bad B movie, over-the-top drunken poet, who spoke to
everyone as if he was reciting poetry,.very bad poetry.I think Stone
gave us a gruesome "Pagent Faded" and compounded the insipid NOHGOA
image of Jim which prevails today.
Kilmer complained to me that Stone Lived in the "Vietnam Flashback" and
was a bit disturbed by him,.He also complained about working on one
song for three months with Paul Rothchild who i am sure was just
running up the meter on Stones dime.
I hated the fucking movie and walked out on it twice even the music was
somehow ruined and Val ended up looking like the lead character in a
musical version of "Weekend at Bernies"
Al Graham
Reply
bigg...@yahoo.com
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bigg...@yahoo.com Jun 12, 4:46 pm show options
Newsgroups: alt.music.the-doors
From: "bigga...@yahoo.com" <bigga...@yahoo.com> - Find messages by this
author
Date: 12 Jun 2005 13:46:27 -0700
Local: Sun,Jun 12 2005 4:46 pm
Subject: Larry Flynt and the Holy Grail.
Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show
original | Remove | Report Abuse
Larry Flynt and the Lizard King.
Althea Flynt,wife of Larry Flynt owner and publisher of
Hustler Magazine was obsessed with Jim Morrison and had seen the MTV
news piece on Anna and I concerning "Morrison the Rock Opera" in which
we said we were looking for a co-producer. I was in Westlake Village
hospital recovering from a massive kidney stone operation, when I got a
call from Anna who said that someone from Larry Flynt"s office had
called and wanted to talk about co-producing the project.
I returned his call when I was near a state of toxicity from the
demerol pain shots, we talked and somehow managed to agree that we
should meet at his penthouse office in Century City. Two days later I
limped to the meeting with an 8 inch inscision in my left kidney and
still heavily medicated.
When I arrived Larry was even more medicated than I,way,way more than I
was or could ever be. We talked mostly about him and the first
amendment and it was the fastest and most fasinating two hours i have
ever spent in my. The battery of lawyers who worked for him constantly
bombarded him with legal questions for the many lawsuits aimed at him,
he answered every one without needing to look at a law book and still
managed keep the meeting going. He gave me a check for $10.000. to
write a treatment for a movie script and he had David Kahn one of the
lawyers draw up a contract and asked me to bring it back when Anna and
I came to dinner at the mansion next week.
We went to the mansion for dinner and we met Althea who wore punk
clothing of the time, her hair was the clor of magenta and she was
wearing more metal than a Harley Davidson. She introduced us to Dennis(
Easy Rider) Hopper, and Terry ("The Magic Christian") Southern, and
wanted them to write a script from the treatment we had brought to the
meeting. it was a most bizzare dinner and Flynt announced that he was
running for President on the Republican ticket and that he would
challenge Ronald Reagan, so the house was filled with the local ,tne
National and international press, plus many celebrities including,Dick
Gregory, Robin Williams,Timothy Leary, Gordon Liddy,Russel Means,
leader of the American Indian Movement.Larry Woods CNN news anchor and
a whole merry-go-round of characters.
Larry adored Anna ( who coul'nt?) we had many dinners at the mansion
after that and lots of bizzare experiences. my meeting turned in to a
year long ride to hell and back.
Shortly after our first meeting the F.B.I stormed the mansion and took
Larry into custody for not giving up his source on the in the John
Delorean case, he spent the next year in federal prison in Springfield
Missouri and I spent the same time picketing the Prison and his court
appearences with a gang of near-do-wells and hired hookers for effect.
The part about the Wardens Daughter joining us on the picket line will
have to wait until the next chapter of our Tale.
Al Graham
Reply
Patricia
Subterranean Cinema wrote:
> Now, if you want to comment on the things Ive posted regarding the
> credibility of Alan Graham vs the credibility of Patricia Butler (which
> is the topic on this particular thread),
Actually, the topic of this particular thread is Alan Graham. You just
can't look at any thread without seeing me. It's your own peculiar
obsession.
then Ill continue to read your
> postings, and Ill even reply to you when you talk about interesting,
> relevant things, and Ill do it in a polite manner as long as you do the
> same.
Remember all the times he said this to me? And how long did his
"polite manner" last?
Otherwise, if you keep sniping at me over silly things like
> this, then I will ignore you again. Im here to discuss Morrison
> related issues and questions, and other than being a very devoted fan
> who wants to know the truth, Im not a Morrison related issue.
Neither is Pink Floyd, but that didn't stop you from devoting a whole
thread to them.
So lets
> stick to the topics and stop sniping at each other, allright? If you
> cant defend Butler without attacking me, then you arent defending her
> at all.
There's some convoluted logic for you.
Patricia
You mean the book that you still haven't managed to read yet talk about
endlessly? Yes, that's the one.
Patricia
> >> She replied to you at 3:13 today - scroll down.
> pathetic, apparently she was raised with the mentality that you can
> bully your way through an argument if facts fail you, and as everyone
> knows about bullies, they are almost always hiding major emotional
> wounds inside there underneath the hatred, and their way of dealing
> with it is to lash out blindly and pass some of their black karma off
> onto other people.
Shall we revisit your many posts ranting on and on about me being in
league with the Coursons in which the only "fact" you presented was
that you really, really wished it were true? You bullied your way
through that one for years. The funny thing about you, Don, is
whenever you purport to describe me to others, you always end up
describing your own behavior quite accurately.
Patricia
Is there some reason you keep cutting and pasting your own messages?
Run out of new lies to tell so soon?
bigg...@yahoo.com
debate, what is your function?
you just seem to hang around like an inoperative pilot fish.
Speak! etc,etc.
bigg...@yahoo.com
about you and Jim and Pam which I have not read, but I have seen
passages about me in one of them and you are fabricating and
prepurtrating outright lies and libelous accusations. When asked to
produce evidence to support your pathalogical lies, you act like most
Liars do, you hurl epithets and try to change the subject. You are an
old, worn-out,and bitter entity pretending to be the "Lizard Queen"
but in fact your are like..
"Dead mackerel by midnight, Shining and stinking"
Leave the field in shame for you have been Bested, and you have no
further function on this thread.
The Paladin
bigg...@yahoo.com
Subterranean Cinema
endlessly? Yes, that's the one.
Yeah, thats quite a trick Ive apparently come up with, being able to
transcribe exact passages from your little booklet word for word
without actually reading it. lol ...
Now, about these recordings that you claim to have, of Alan Graham
harassing you over the phone ...
Subterranean Cinema
harassing you over the phone ...
There are many fine and FREE programs that can easily make wav or mp3
recordings from a microphone or, even better, a line input (no outside
noise interference). It's quite simple to plug a tape machine into
your computer and make a sound file, and even someone who has never
done it before can learn how to do it with a little effort. It seems
to me that if Butler actually had these recordings, she would want to
jump at the opportunity to publicly prove that Alan Graham is lying by
playing a snippet of him on the phone, using a phony "spanish accent"
and harassing. That could only prove her charges and make her look
truthful, right?
Subterranean Cinema
debate, what is your function?
you just seem to hang around like an inoperative pilot fish.
She purports to be the "expert" here for this silly little book of
hers, but when pressed to back up her bullshit with proof, she prefers
to whine about irrelevant things, like me daring to post a notice on
another thread about Pink Floyd reuniting. She's a coward, looking
desperately for a way to change the subject from her libelous
statements about Alan Graham, statements which she has no true proof
of. She is a pathological liar creating new lies to cover the old
ones.
bigg...@yahoo.com
I posted the website address with out explanation, it is a few of some
never before seen photo's of the family.
Has anybody heard from Mizz Butler, she has promised to produce tapes
of threatening phone calls by me to her.
Al
Paging Mizzz Butler...........
"Waiting Waiting ...for you to tell me what went wrong,
This is the stangest life... I've ever known"
bigg...@yahoo.com
Where are the tapes?
Where are the sources?
Where are your answers?
What is th name of your attorney?
What is his phone #?
What is your favorite color?
Forever and ever and ever.
The Paladin
sweetchild
Peg
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
"Subterranean Cinema" <sub...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1118676838....@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
bigg...@yahoo.com
Superskank, There are no secrets on this board, so stop sending
pathetic e-mails with more lies. and to desperately change the subject
Name names, bring them on the board to accuse me directly..
The Paladin
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From: "mizscarlett43" <mizsca...@hotmail.com> Add to Address Book
To: "bigg...@yahoo.com" <bigg...@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Jim Morrison's Ancient Gallary
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 12:14:04 -0700
bigg...@yahoo.com wrote:
> I fully expect to be attacked by some people who claim to know me
even
> though I have never heard of them.They succeed in having me removed
> from the lizard lounge so as to maintain their private delusion, that
> they and they alone knew Jim intimately and anyone who can prove
> otherwise is sent off to the gulagg.
No one is claiming to KNOW you, Alan (we have all been lucky enough to
escape that particular torture), nor do I remember any of us claiming
to have known Jim "intimately," although Leon and certainly Salli could
legitimately make such a claim.
Until you started posting on the LL I knew you by reputation only, and
have never claimed otherwise.
Salli, OTOH, not only knows you by reputation, she remembers your late
brother-in-law referring to you in rather derogatory terms ("scumbag"
is one of the the words she remembers him using). She also remembers
the telephone conversation she had with you about 10 years ago. She'd
called you--at Danny Sugerman's request--to question you about items
you were advertising as having belonged to Jim. In return for her
questions she got one of your frothing death threats--something about
siccing your "Italian" friends on her, to which she remembers
responding with "Italians" of her own. (In fact you're acquainted with
one of her Italian friends; maybe you should try threatening HIM and
see what happens.)
And IIRC, it was YOU who first remembered meeting Leon, not vice-versa.
He merely confirmed that encounter--and corrected your error as to its
location, while tweaking you (gently, as is his manner) regarding the
subject of the screenplay you were trying to peddle at the time.
You responded by hailing him as "old friend," I believe, and only
turned on your erstwhile old friend after he voiced his dismay at the
tone of your "black eyes" story.
Dearie me but you are a fickle fellow, Mr. Graham, and I wonder if you
really want to make the claim that you yourself knew Jim "intimately?"
Swampfetus
> >> What is your quest here? you dont ask any questions, or offer any
> debate, what is your function?
> you just seem to hang around like an inoperative pilot fish.
>
> She purports to be the "expert" here for this silly little book of
> hers, but when pressed to back up her bullshit with proof, she prefers
> to whine about irrelevant things,
I fucked up. I went & killfiled the bitch, now I can't read what she's
saying. Better let her back in on my end, so I can see what's going on.
Someone clue me in on what she's said so far.
Patricia
bigg...@yahoo.com wrote:
>[snip pschotic ranting down to this quote from Scarlett's email:
> Dearie me but you are a fickle fellow, Mr. Graham, and I wonder if you
> really want to make the claim that you yourself knew Jim "intimately?"
"Fickle" is the perfect word! When I was researching the book, Graham
somehow got it into his head that I was going to be doing some kind of
rip piece on Pamela. So he calls me up and tells me what a skank Pam
was, and how he -- for a price! -- can give me a lengthy interview full
of all kinds of nasty information about Pamela. When I informed him
that I as writing a straight bio, NOT a rip piece on Pamela, the change
in Graham was instantaneous! *Without skipping a beat* he started
talking about what a sweet, wonderful girl Pamela was, and what a
tragedy her death was, and how -- for a price! -- he could give ma
lengthy interview full of all kinds of heartwarming information about
Pamela. It wasn't long after I told him to go fuck himself that the
threatening calls started. "Scumbag" indeed!
Patricia
bigg...@yahoo.com wrote:
> The Morrison Family Photo Album.
> I posted the website address with out explanation, it is a few of some
> never before seen photo's of the family.
>
> Has anybody heard from Mizz Butler, she has promised to produce tapes
> of threatening phone calls by me to her.
>
> Al
>
> Paging Mizzz Butler...........
I didn't promise you a thing. And I'm sure the Morrisons are THRILLED
to have you hawking their private family photos on the internet.
Patricia
sweetchild wrote:
> Must be a book signing going on today.
> Peg
Some of us work for a living and don't have the time -- as you
apparently do -- to constantly monitor the dozens of long, rambling
posts by this psycho. And you still have time leftover to stalk people
from group to group. Must be so freeing not to have any life at all,
"Peg."
Patricia
Subterranean Cinema wrote:
> >> You mean the book that you still haven't managed to read yet talk about
> endlessly? Yes, that's the one.
>
> Yeah, thats quite a trick Ive apparently come up with, being able to
> transcribe exact passages from your little booklet word for word
> without actually reading it. lol ...
Don, you've been doing it for years. You were quoting passages of the
book here before you even had the book in your hands. Are you now
saying you were lying all those years and had actually read the book?
In short, were you lying then, or are you lying now?
> Now, about these recordings that you claim to have, of Alan Graham
> harassing you over the phone ...
What about them?
Patricia
Why in the world would I go through all that trouble? You and I both
know that even if I did that -- and I would be insane to jump through
that hoop for you -- you'd immediately declare it a fraud. So what's
the point?
Patricia
Shall we revisit those "Jim's death" threads where you suddenly started
pointing and screaming, "Hey, look over there!" then running like a
little girl whenever anyone pointed out the MANY MANY MANY flaws in
your logic?
bigg...@yahoo.com
Our main protagonist Meeez Butt-ler, is trying to do the old
"lets get this thing into the shadows and out of the public light"
trick"
Not so fast "dormitory breath" three are no secrets out here in the
wilderness.
Al.
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 13:29:35 -0700
bigg...@yahoo.com wrote:
> How are things in Spitsville , New Mexico?
> How is your trailor home smelling?
My beautiful and historic adobe "trailer"--please note correct
spelling--currently stinks of roses and honeysuckle, from its Saltillo
tile floors to the vigas 10 feet overhead. Thanks for asking.
> When you brag to people, that your claim to fame is a "long...
> long...long orgasm with Jim Morrison" what do you think people really
> think of you?
Here's a hint for you: real writers use quote marks when they're--you
know--actually quoting someone...
> "Your ballroom days are over baby"
...except when the quote is so obvious as to make the marks
superfluous. But thanks for plugging my article again, anyway.
> Where are your accomplices salli and leon?
Neither Salli nor Leon has ever posted here that I can recall, and I
rather doubt that either one would have the time or the inclination to
start now.
However, I know they both enjoyed watching you make a smarmy, boastful
ass of yourself on the LL, so I'll email them the newsgroup URL just in
case. Fair enough? ;-)
> are they guarding the
> "Grotesque Mansion" you and they have constructed to hold your
Jim (Edward Scissorhands) Morrison?
Sorry, could you repeat that in English?
Hyacinth
by "Patricia" <pbutl...@aol.com> Jun 13, 2005 at 01:27 PM
>"Fickle" is the perfect word! When I was >researching the book, Graham
>somehow got it into his head that I was going >to be doing some kind of
>rip piece on Pamela. So he calls me up and >tells me what a skank Pam
>was, and how he -- for a price! -- can give me >a lengthy interview full
>of all kinds of nasty information about >Pamela. When I informed him
>that I as writing a straight bio, NOT a rip >piece on Pamela, the change
>in Graham was instantaneous! *Without skipping >a beat* he started
>talking about what a sweet, wonderful girl >Pamela was, and what a
>tragedy her death was, and how -- for a price! ->- he could give ma
>lengthy interview full of all kinds of >heartwarming information about
>Pamela. It wasn't long after I told him to go >fuck himself that the
>threatening calls started. "Scumbag" indeed!
OH, PATRICIA, QUIT THE HISTRIONICS. IF THIS IS ALL ALAN DID, BIG FAT
DEAL!!!!! EVERY POST YOU MAKE HERE HAS A THREATENING TONE. CALLING THE
KETTLE BLACK, ARE WE???
sweetchild
many things in-between going on and off the comp. Many times I am not on for
a few days... today for YOU was abnormal in otherwords... and you work at a
real go to work type of job. I did that for 20 years with my other 2
kids..this time I am home and it takes me seconds to post.
I did go to the Manilow site-- so what? I wont hide anything. I can go
where I want and I was curious to see if you were spamming your book there
too. I see many p'od people there too bc everytime someone posts you are
correcting their spelling or cursing them out...calling those nice ladies
at the Manilow site "c*nts" for a word that no one cares about yet you can
misspell and it is acceptable. Maybe if you were decent, people from all
groups would regard you a little differently. I have to say there are some
sharp witted members in that BM group as well. LOL
Peggy
~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Patricia" <pbutl...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1118694664.1...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
sweetchild
journalism on their son's "supposed" sexual encounters that you obtained 3rd
hand.
Peggy
"Patricia" <pbutl...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1118694524.2...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
sweetchild
freedom from the daily grind. If your books were successful you would be
home working on the next one in your leisure .
Peggy
~~~~~~~~~~~news:1118694664.1...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
bigg...@yahoo.com
Spitoon # 2 has gone off line in an attempt to take our chess match in
to the shaddows.Not so fast dormitory breath,
There are no secrets out here in the cleansing wilderness. Everbody on
the board is now watching you try to change the subject by criticising
my poor spelling and grammar.You have cried Uncle by going offline but
we will all red your desperate e-mail together.
Dearie me but you are a fickle fellow, Mr. Graham, and I wonder if you
bigg...@yahoo.com
bigg...@yahoo.com
I believe that together we have witnessed the 'Public Melting' of at
least two of the
"Three Witches of Skanktown" who attempted to cast evil spells over
this thread by twisting people's words, yelling insults and then
jumping on a nauseating "Semantical Merry-Go-Round" bellowing insults
as they go round and round and round and round.
I came her to share my stories and to complete the final chapter of a
wild 25 year long Sojourn/Quest.and want even these wretches to be
able to question me if they have any real ones to ask, so even though
they may try to disrupt this experience for us . we all now know who
and what they are.
Shall we go forward?
Al
Subterranean Cinema
Butler been propagating on this group, a pretty vile accusation about
you that, as it turns out, is based completely on second hand hearsay
allegedly heard in a telephone conversation with some woman who you
allegedly admitted it to (in yet ANOTHER telephone conversation, which
makes it THIRD hand info). Its about as weak as evidence gets. I
guess some people never learned the lesson of that old kid's game,
"Telephone", where you whisper a message from ear to ear down the line,
and then see how badly distorted the message is by the time it reaches
the end of the line. Its an early, basic life lesson that apparently a
few regulars here never got the real point of.
This seems to be the case with most of Butler's "research", the
majority of which was apparently done over the telephone ... she didnt
actually talk to the person being quoted, but she knows someone who did
and she got the story from them, so in her eyes thats as good as
getting it from the person directly, and so she puts quotes around it
and makes it look as it the person actually said it.
Witness her second hand quotes of the "unreliable" Diane Gardiner
(which were told to her by Randy Ralston because Gardiner wanted money
for an interview, which then made her a liar in Butler's eyes):
___________________________________________
"Pamela really knew she wanted to die at the same age of twenty-seven
the way Jim died," Diane told Randy, "So we all knew that this was what
she wanted to do. We knew she was going to go home and overdose and
commit suicide, and thats just the way it was." Randy had been
distraught, but, he said, "Diane was so calm about it that she calmed
me down."
Diane's initial explanation to Randy didnt fit very well with the story
John Mandell had told the police, though Mandell himself later gave a
somewhat rearranged version of his original statement to the medical
examiner. Gardiner, too, later recanted her story, telling Randy
rather inexplicably, "Oh, darling, I just had to tell you that."
_______________________________________________
Kinda sounds like she's trying to make Diane Gardiner seem a little
cold and heartless in the first paragraph, and a liar who "recanted her
story" in the second. Butler seems to hold a grudge against anyone who
asked her for money to be interviewed.
This is her method of finding a "fact": someone says "one time Tom
Cruise told me that he is secretly gay", and she reports it publicly as
"Tom Cruise has admitted in the past that he is secretly gay". What a
worm.
Personally, I hope you sue the fucking bitch, Alan. If what she's said
about you hasnt crossed the line into libel, then I dont know what
would. She's literally accused you of being a wife beater and a
criminal without any true evidence beyond claims of alleged telephone
hearsay. That goes quite a bit beyond your average chatroom insults
flung at various anonymous screennames, this was more like a deliberate
attempt on the part of Patricia Butler to smear your name publicly and
attach the label "wife abuser" to it (and judging from the way the
Lizard Lounge people blindly propagated the story, it worked). She
really doesnt know when to shut the fuck up for her own good. Maybe
its time she learned a lesson the hard way. I hope you teach it to
her. Good luck!
bigg...@yahoo.com
Now that this thread is Spittoon free, I would like to tell some
stories about Jim from my point of view.
I hope to be around from now on and I hope you will be here too.
With regards to the "Sirens" they will always be lurking here to create
dissent, confusion, and chaos.
(the essenceof true evil) but i believe they have been thoroughly
discredited and their post are now meaningless.
Al.
PS. I have always told the people closest to me "never count em out"and
I feel sure "The Butt-ler" will return, but it will be like that scene
from "The holy grail" None shall pass! None shall pass! did you see
the movie?
Hyacinth
a price! -- can give me a lengthy interview full of all kinds of nasty
information about Pamela. When I informed him
that I as writing a straight bio, NOT a rip piece on Pamela, the change in
Graham was instantaneous! *Without skipping a beat* he started talking
about what a sweet, wonderful girl Pamela was, and what a tragedy her
death was, and how -- for a price! -- he could give ma
lengthy interview full of all kinds of heartwarming information about
Pamela. It wasn't long after I told him to go fuck himself that the
threatening calls started. "Scumbag" indeed!
MAYBE YOU SHOULD HAVE TALKED WITH EVE BABITZ FOR FREE:
Jim as a sex object lasted for about two years. In fact, once he and
Pamela became entangled in their fantastic killing struggle – once he
finally found someone who, when he said, "Let's drive over this cliff,"
actually would – he became more of a death object than a sex symbol. Which
was even sexier.
When Pamela Courson met Jim, he began putting his money where his mouth
was. Whereas all he had previously brought to the moment was morbid
romantic excess, he now had someone looking at him and saying, "Well, are
you going to drive off this cliff, or what?" She was someone with red hair
and a heart embroidered on her pants over the place her anus would be. He
was a back doorman, and Pamela was the door.
Pamela was the cool one. Everything a nerd could possibly wish to be,
Pamela was. She had guns, took heroin, and was fearless in every
situation. Socially she didn't care, emotionally she was shock proof, and
as for her eating disorders – her idea of the diet to be on while Jim was
in Miami going to court was ten days of heroin. Every time she woke up she
did some, so she just sort of slept through her fast. When she did wake
up, she went with some friends to the Beverly Hills Hotel to see Ahmet
Eregun and fainted. Viola, there she was back at UCLA, diagnosed as dying
of malnutrition.
Good old Pamela, what a sport. She would take Jim's favorite vest and
write fag in giant letters on the back in India ink. She would
go through Rodeo Drive's Yves Saint Laurent Rive Gauche, piling her arms
higher and higher with more stuff, muttering under her breath, "He owes it
to me, he owes it to me, he owes it to
me."
Pamela was mean and she was cool. She liked to scare people. Pamela had
control over Jim in real life. He made his audiences suffer for that. And
I mean, he was so cute, you would. Pamela looked sunny and sweet and cute
– she had freckles and red hair and the greenest eyes and just the country
girl glow. It was hard to believe her purse was stuffed with Thorazine
(that horrible drug they used to give acid freak outs). She wore mauve and
large, soft, expensive suede boots
and large shawls, but even her laugh her was mean.
She was so mean, she told Ray Manzarek that Jim's last words were, "Pam,
are you out there?" even though he actually left a note. And she knew that
the note would establish forever the literature movie myth of Jim's Lizard
King image. ***Everyone hated Pam except Jim.***
A friend of mine once said, "You can say anything about a woman a man
marries, but I'll tell you one thing – it's always his mother." "Mother,"
sang Jim, "I want to….aggghhh." Pamela was more
than happy to supply the lip back: "Oh, you would, would you? Well, fuck
you!"
Subterranean Cinema
You bet, I love Holy Grail and Life of Brian.
"... and what do you burn apart from witches?"
"MORE WITCHES!!!"
Subterranean Cinema
Next!"
"Crucifixion?"
"Ehh, no, freedom."
"How's that?"
"They said I hadnt done anything wrong, so I can go free."
"Ahh ... well, jolly good, off you go then."
"Nahh, just kidding ... crucifixion."
"Ahh hehe, very clever ... well then, out the door, line on the left
..."
bigg...@yahoo.com
Subterranean Cinema
"Pamela had control over Jim in real life," journalist Eve Babitz once
wrote. "He made his audiences suffer for that". (ADAD, pg 138)
Eve Babitz once wrote, "If you're allergic to strawberries and you eat
them, you break out in hives. If Jim drank scotch, he broke out in
fuckups". If that were true, then Miami was proving to be a near
fatal attack. (ADAD, pg 145)
_______________________________________________________________
Hyacinth wrote:
"... So he calls me up and tells me what a skank Pamwas, and how he --
for
a price! -- can give me a lengthy interview full of all kinds of nasty
information about Pamela. When I informed him
that I as writing a straight bio, NOT a rip piece on Pamela, the change
in
Graham was instantaneous! *Without skipping a beat* he started talking
about what a sweet, wonderful girl Pamela was, and what a tragedy her
death was, and how -- for a price! -- he could give ma
lengthy interview full of all kinds of heartwarming information about
Pamela. It wasn't long after I told him to go fuck himself that the
threatening calls started. "Scumbag" indeed!
MAYBE YOU SHOULD HAVE TALKED WITH EVE BABITZ FOR FREE:
Jim as a sex object lasted for about two years. In fact, once he and
Pamela became entangled in their fantastic killing struggle - once he
finally found someone who, when he said, "Let's drive over this cliff,"
actually would - he became more of a death object than a sex symbol.
Which
was even sexier.
When Pamela Courson met Jim, he began putting his money where his mouth
was. Whereas all he had previously brought to the moment was morbid
romantic excess, he now had someone looking at him and saying, "Well,
are
you going to drive off this cliff, or what?" She was someone with red
hair
and a heart embroidered on her pants over the place her anus would be.
He
was a back doorman, and Pamela was the door.
Pamela was the cool one. Everything a nerd could possibly wish to be,
Pamela was. She had guns, took heroin, and was fearless in every
situation. Socially she didn't care, emotionally she was shock proof,
and
as for her eating disorders - her idea of the diet to be on while Jim
was
in Miami going to court was ten days of heroin. Every time she woke up
she
did some, so she just sort of slept through her fast. When she did wake
up, she went with some friends to the Beverly Hills Hotel to see Ahmet
Eregun and fainted. Viola, there she was back at UCLA, diagnosed as
dying
of malnutrition.
Good old Pamela, what a sport. She would take Jim's favorite vest and
write fag in giant letters on the back in India ink. She would
go through Rodeo Drive's Yves Saint Laurent Rive Gauche, piling her
arms
higher and higher with more stuff, muttering under her breath, "He owes
it
to me, he owes it to me, he owes it to
me."
Pamela was mean and she was cool. She liked to scare people. Pamela had
control over Jim in real life. He made his audiences suffer for that.
And
I mean, he was so cute, you would. Pamela looked sunny and sweet and
cute
- she had freckles and red hair and the greenest eyes and just the
country
girl glow. It was hard to believe her purse was stuffed with Thorazine
(that horrible drug they used to give acid freak outs). She wore mauve
and
large, soft, expensive suede boots
and large shawls, but even her laugh her was mean.
She was so mean, she told Ray Manzarek that Jim's last words were,
"Pam,
are you out there?" even though he actually left a note. And she knew
that
the note would establish forever the literature movie myth of Jim's
Lizard
King image. ***Everyone hated Pam except Jim.***
A friend of mine once said, "You can say anything about a woman a man
marries, but I'll tell you one thing - it's always his mother."
"Mother,"
sang Jim, "I want to....aggghhh." Pamela was more
Nothing V
sub...@aol.com says...
> Now, about these recordings that you claim to have, of Alan Graham
> harassing you over the phone ...
>
Okay, but IF Patricia produced a copy of the recording & made it
available for you to listen to, how would you know it was him? How would
you know if it wasnt him? How would you know either way? You have never
spoken to the man before, have you?
--
Nothing V
Subterranean Cinema
could debate if its actually him or not (and Im sure there are ways to
find out). At least then there would be proof of a recording, in
which a man is calling and harassing her using a "spanish accent".
But to just state she has a recording and then go SILENT when he asks
her to produce evidence of it, is beyond suspicious. The fact that
Alan Graham is here, openly ready to answer any and all questions put
to him, and that she has responded to that by disappearing, after weeks
of relentless posting ... well, cmon. I think its obvious that she was
bluffing about the recording, hoping that it would intimidate him, and
he called her on it. Now that she has to either put up or shut up,
she's chosen to shut up. Draw your own conclusions.
Nothing V
says...
> I am sure they are not as bothered by that as your chapter of yellow
> journalism on their son's "supposed" sexual encounters that you obtained 3rd
> hand.
> Peggy
>
Why do you keep going on about this? I dont understand why youre so
upset about it.
--
Nothing V
Nothing V
sub...@aol.com says...
> Great job, Al. Youve exposed yet another false story that Patricia
> Butler been propagating on this group, a pretty vile accusation about
> you that, as it turns out, is based completely on second hand hearsay
> allegedly heard in a telephone conversation with some woman who you
> allegedly admitted it to (in yet ANOTHER telephone conversation, which
> makes it THIRD hand info). Its about as weak as evidence gets.
How has he proven to you (or anyone) that the story is false? Do you
honestly think that if it WAS true, that he would admit it? What do you
know about him as a person that convinces you so strongly that his
denial of the event is enough to discredit it?
> I
> guess some people never learned the lesson of that old kid's game,
> "Telephone", where you whisper a message from ear to ear down the line,
> and then see how badly distorted the message is by the time it reaches
> the end of the line. Its an early, basic life lesson that apparently a
> few regulars here never got the real point of.
>
The bad thing is that we dont even need to apply this lesson in order to
recognise that there is a lot of first-hand information which has been
offered about Morrison that has not been truthful. It isnt enough to say
that it was first-hand information, & therefore it must be true. If you
have first-hand sources that dont stand up to scrutiny, then how can you
believe anything at all?
>
> Witness her second hand quotes of the "unreliable" Diane Gardiner
> (which were told to her by Randy Ralston because Gardiner wanted money
> for an interview, which then made her a liar in Butler's eyes):
You dont think that charging for an interview makes the person seem
unreliable? Seriously. You dont think that this makes their motives the
least bit suspicious? If you have two people willing to tell you about
something that they experienced, who are you more inclined to believe -
the one who charges you for it, or the one who doesnt? Do you not read
anything at all into the fact that they want to be paid for their
information? Im not talking about classified government secrets or
anything. & Im not trying to say that the fact that they charge for
their memoirs is proof in & of itself that they are complete liars. But
there IS something going on there that is suspicious & dishonest. Do you
disagree?
> Personally, I hope you sue the fucking bitch, Alan. If what she's said
> about you hasnt crossed the line into libel, then I dont know what
> would. She's literally accused you of being a wife beater and a
> criminal without any true evidence beyond claims of alleged telephone
> hearsay. That goes quite a bit beyond your average chatroom insults
> flung at various anonymous screennames, this was more like a deliberate
> attempt on the part of Patricia Butler to smear your name publicly and
> attach the label "wife abuser" to it (and judging from the way the
> Lizard Lounge people blindly propagated the story, it worked).
Okay, but what would be Patricia's motive for "smearing his name
publicly"? How would she benefit from this? Its not like shes charging
you for information that she has about Alan Graham.
--
Nothing V
Subterranean Cinema
upset about it.
Dear, nobody is "upset", with the possible exception of Patricia
Butler, and maybe you, since every night about this same time, you come
here and whine about me. You dont talk much about whatever the current
subject is, you just whine about my postings in general (and yes, whine
is the accurate word for it). Im only "going on" as I find more
relevant things in her book to post about the current controversy over
Alan Graham. She wanted me to read her book, demanded it, and now
she's paying the price as I am reading it. If you dont care about the
argument, or if it offends you to see us being mean to poor innocent
little Patricia Butler, then dont read the stuff. It's that simple.
Nothing V
sub...@aol.com says...
Calm down. I wasnt even directing the comment at you. It had absolutely
nothing to do w/you. It was directed at Peggy. She is clearly the one
being quoted prior to my comment. Here it is again.
In article <I6Gdnfs1qNu...@rcn.net>, pjazar...@rcn.com
says...
> I am sure they are not as bothered by that as your chapter of yellow
> journalism on their son's "supposed" sexual encounters that you obtained 3rd
> hand.
> Peggy
>
Why do you keep going on about this? I dont understand why youre so
upset about it.
--
Nothing V
Subterranean Cinema
publicly"? How would she benefit from this?
I dont know what her motive is, youd have to ask her, she might even
answer you back. The fact is, she DID smear his name publicly, with
hearsay information. Is she showing any evidence, besides this
alleged phone call statement from some woman, to prove that the man
abused his wife? No, because she has none, and to make the statement
as a FACT on such thin evidence is unacceptable.
Im off to bed now, dear, so you mull all of that over alone, and as
long as you continue to speak politely to me, Ill return it to you when
Im back online tomorrow. Good night.
Subterranean Cinema
Nothing V
sub...@aol.com says...
> Good questions. If Patricia were to produce a recording, then we
> could debate if its actually him or not (and Im sure there are ways to
> find out). At least then there would be proof of a recording, in
> which a man is calling and harassing her using a "spanish accent".
> But to just state she has a recording and then go SILENT when he asks
> her to produce evidence of it, is beyond suspicious. The fact that
> Alan Graham is here, openly ready to answer any and all questions put
> to him, and that she has responded to that by disappearing, after weeks
> of relentless posting ... well, cmon. I think its obvious that she was
> bluffing about the recording, hoping that it would intimidate him, and
> he called her on it. Now that she has to either put up or shut up,
> she's chosen to shut up. Draw your own conclusions.
>
Heres what youve got. You have Patricia saying that the phone call
happened. You now have Alan Graham saying the phone call did not happen.
If you want them to discuss it more, all you are going to get is
Patricia saying (as she already has), this is what happened & Alan
saying (as he already has), this never happened. The dialogue has, in
short, exhausted itself.
--
Nothing V
Nothing V
sub...@aol.com says...
> "I said good DAY, sir ..." <Tootsie>
>
I guess thats as close as Im going to get to an apology.
--
Nothing V
Hyacinth
happened. You now have Alan Graham saying the phone call did not happen.
If you want them to discuss it more, all you are going to get is
Patricia saying (as she already has), this is what happened & Alan
saying (as he already has), this never happened. The dialogue has, in
short, exhausted itself.
But where's the proof?? Alan's got my vote. I believe him when he says
he never spoke with PB. He's been saying that for awhile now, long before
he came on this NG.
Hyacinth
unreliable? Seriously. You dont think that this makes their motives the
least bit suspicious? If you have two people willing to tell you about
something that they experienced, who are you more inclined to believe -
the one who charges you for it, or the one who doesnt? Do you not read
anything at all into the fact that they want to be paid for their
information? Im not talking about classified government secrets or
anything. & Im not trying to say that the fact that they charge for
their memoirs is proof in & of itself that they are complete liars. But
there IS something going on there that is suspicious & dishonest. Do you
disagree?
Why wouldn't he charge her? Its his time. Why should he give her
information for a book when he owes her nothing?? Especially since he was
working on his own story. Charging someone means nothing. Are you going
to say he was never married to Jim's sister for 20 years and maybe knows
what he's talking about? He has 3 children who are Jim's nieces/nephews.
Blood relation. His kids' grandparents are Jim's parents. I'd say that
is a pretty damn close relationship. Whether Jim liked him or not is
incidental.
You all seem to put Jim on a pedestal. By the way he treated his parents,
what makes you think he's a good guy, Nothing??? He didn't like his
parents, either, supposedly.
Since Butler has no firsthand proof - like a jail transcription or Anne's
word about beating (and BTW, Jim hit a few women in his time, so there
goes that black kettle again), her word means zip, nadda, nothing.
You ask why PB smears Alan? WHO DOESN'T SHE SMEAR? Jealousy. He knows
more than she thinks she does and she can't stand that. People on the
sidelines often behave vindictively. Why is she so swarmy to people here
she doesn't even know? Because like the playground bully she has to make
her presence known. Sadly, she never learned how to interact with others
in a mature, respectful manner. PB has written HORRIBLE words to Link,
who happens to have been a dear friend of Jim's and who doesn't lord it
over anyone. She is pure of heart and yet she gets it kicked by PB every
chance PB can get to denigrate Link's memories. Ive read PBs archived
posts to Link and they are not pretty.
The fact that Alan is challenging her and she seems to have made herself
scarce around here is good enough proof for me that she cannot back up her
nefarious accusations. She has gone too far this time: this is not a
back and forth debate this is drive-by yelling with the intent to hurt and
humiliate. Big accusations like hers are potential powder kegs and may
blow up in her face. And even I dont want to see that happen to her.
Link
dooo ~ altogether now!
Nothing V
<8d40b3a275fce2ff...@localhost.talkaboutthemusic.com>,
Hyacint...@netscape.net says...
> You dont think that charging for an interview makes the person seem
> unreliable? Seriously. You dont think that this makes their motives the
> least bit suspicious? If you have two people willing to tell you about
> something that they experienced, who are you more inclined to believe -
> the one who charges you for it, or the one who doesnt? Do you not read
> anything at all into the fact that they want to be paid for their
> information? Im not talking about classified government secrets or
> anything. & Im not trying to say that the fact that they charge for
> their memoirs is proof in & of itself that they are complete liars. But
> there IS something going on there that is suspicious & dishonest. Do you
> disagree?
>
>
>
> Why wouldn't he charge her? Its his time. Why should he give her
> information for a book when he owes her nothing?? Especially since he was
> working on his own story. Charging someone means nothing.
I disagree. I think it brings up a lot of issues involving credibility &
motive. The fact that Alan Graham would grant Patricia an interview if
she paid him for it leads me to think that he only wants to tell his
"story" if he can exchange it for money. That, to me, is suspicious.
Once you start saying, "Ill tell you what I know, but its going to cost
you", to me, that brings up the suspicion that maybe the monetary value
of the story is more important than the story itself, or that the person
has questionable motives. It even makes me think that the person
charging for information may be inclined to lie. (Better story = more
money.) How does it matter if he was working on his own story? Does he
not want to get his stories mixed up? Patricia talked to plenty of
people who had written about Morrison. As far as your "its his time"
comment, hes on a fucking newsgroup begging to tell his story, but he
somehow didnt have the time to talk to Patricia? Give me a break. If he
really wants to talk about his experiences w/Morrison or the Morrison
family (as he has stated here) & is interested in & excited about
sharing this information w/people, then why did he want to charge
Patricia for it? I think youre wrong. I think charging for an interview
DOES mean something.
> Are you going
> to say he was never married to Jim's sister for 20 years and maybe knows
> what he's talking about?
> He has 3 children who are Jim's nieces/nephews.
> Blood relation. His kids' grandparents are Jim's parents. I'd say that
> is a pretty damn close relationship. Whether Jim liked him or not is
> incidental.
>
Id say it was a close relationship w/Jim's sister & Jim's
neices/nephews. I dont know what his relationship w/Jim was like, or if
he even had much of a relationship w/Jim. It seems apparent that Jim
didnt like the guy. Even you just said Jim didnt like him. It is my
understanding that Jim wasnt altogether fond of his parents for a large
portion of his life, & that he didnt spend a lot of time w/them or have
a really close, personal relationship w/them. If Im wrong, just say so.
Its just what I have gathered from what I have read over the years.
Based on this, I find it difficult to believe that a guy married to
Jim's sister who Jim didnt like could share very much information about
Jim. So I dont care very much at all about this Graham fellow. If he
says something interesting, Ill be here to read it. Until then, I dont
see why hes exceptionally special.
> You all seem to put Jim on a pedestal. By the way he treated his parents,
> what makes you think he's a good guy, Nothing??? He didn't like his
> parents, either, supposedly.
What makes you think I think hes a "good guy"? What do you mean by "good
guy"? What does this have to do w/Graham charging Butler for an
interview?
>
> Since Butler has no firsthand proof - like a jail transcription or Anne's
> word about beating (and BTW, Jim hit a few women in his time, so there
> goes that black kettle again), her word means zip, nadda, nothing.
OTOH, if this guy really DID beat Jim's sister & engage in the other
alleged behaviour, do you really think he would admit it?
>
> You ask why PB smears Alan? WHO DOESN'T SHE SMEAR? Jealousy. He knows
> more than she thinks she does and she can't stand that.
Jealousy? Thats your theory? Shes jealous of what Graham knows? What
could he know that would make her jealous? She has plenty of people who
were much better connected to Morrison & know a hell of a lot more about
him than I imagine Graham could know who DID talk to her at length. This
theory of yours doesnt make sense to me. Please explain more, if you
dont mind.
> People on the
> sidelines often behave vindictively. Why is she so swarmy to people here
> she doesn't even know?
A lot of people are nasty on online discussion groups w/people they dont
know. If youve been to a handful of them, you would know that Patricia
is not the only one who can behave in a rude manner.
--
Nothing V
Link
she paid him for it leads me to think that he only wants to tell his
"story" if he can exchange it for money. That, to me, is suspicious.
Remaining neutral in concluding either way.... doesn't it seem that
perhaps some people might have felt that since she was going to produce
something to hopefully succeed in making her money, that they wanted
their "piece of the pie' without it being especially suspicious. Not
that that is necessarily virtuous OR wicked....just a perspective.
Might have seemed "fair" in some minds that she not be the only one to
benefit monetarily when they were contributing the "bricks" to her
building. Just a thought.
bigg...@yahoo.com
quoting Butler's words as "gospel".
Anyone who as read this whole thread can see that she was exposed fo
her lies, and if you look back at her other posts to other people, she
uses the same pattern of behavior, slice/dice, hit and run, scorched
earth policy and most people dont stand up to her.
Your posts are always the same, you present yourself as some above-
the- fray, dispassionate observer, but you don't appear to have read
how this woman behaves with or without me being present.are you a
supporter of her's?
I was invited to come to this board to counter someone who has been
slandering me for years, I wonder what you would do in my place?
I never ever talked to Butler on the phone, here account is false and I
challenged her to prove but she ran and hid.
I question your objectivity and call on you to read her other post to
other people long before I came here, and then tell me she is
believable.
Al
bigg...@yahoo.com
Ihave reviewed some of your post's from the past, and you always
present Butler's case for her in your every post. Do you speak to her
back and forth before you post?Answer my questions truthfully.
Are you in any way connected to Butler?
Do you talk to her between post's?
Are you her using another computor and screen name?
What is your name?
What is your favorite color?
Do you think people should kiss on first dates?
Sincerely
Gary Coleman
Jane Asher's Vagina
> Patricia Butler wears her brother's hand
> me down combat boots and has a leather jockstrap with a battery
> operated dildo attachment (from Acme), but that doesnt necessarily make
> it the truth (then again the mental image does fit her abrasive verbal
> style to a tee, hah).
No dildo worth it's batteries would make that insertion.
Jane Asher's Vagina
> Good questions. If Patricia were to produce a recording, then we
> could debate if its actually him or not (and Im sure there are ways to
> find out).
You get me a copy of each and I can have it lab software certified.
bigg...@yahoo.com
Butt-ler.
Yo... Doggette!
One...More....Time.
Bring forth the tapes and any proof whatsoever to support your false
allegations concerning my character.
What is the name and phone number of your current attorney?
Why are you not responding to my post"s, a little too visceral for
you?
If and when you make your "Grotesque Entrance" today bring your combat
boots,because I'm fixin to.....
"eat more chicken any man ever seen"
The Paladin
Subterranean Cinema
Indeed, and if you had even a basic sense of humor about yourself (or
anything else), you would have taken it for the kidding that it was.
Lighten up, its just a movie quote.
Patricia
Hyacinth wrote:
> Music > Doors (band) > Re: Alan Graham
> by "Patricia" <pbutl...@aol.com> Jun 13, 2005 at 01:27 PM
>
> >"Fickle" is the perfect word! When I was >researching the book, Graham
> >somehow got it into his head that I was going >to be doing some kind of
> >rip piece on Pamela. So he calls me up and >tells me what a skank Pam
> >was, and how he -- for a price! -- can give me >a lengthy interview full
> >of all kinds of nasty information about >Pamela. When I informed him
> >that I as writing a straight bio, NOT a rip >piece on Pamela, the change
> >in Graham was instantaneous! *Without skipping >a beat* he started
> >talking about what a sweet, wonderful girl >Pamela was, and what a
> >tragedy her death was, and how -- for a price! ->- he could give ma
> >lengthy interview full of all kinds of >heartwarming information about
> >Pamela. It wasn't long after I told him to go >fuck himself that the
> >threatening calls started. "Scumbag" indeed!
>
>
> OH, PATRICIA, QUIT THE HISTRIONICS. IF THIS IS ALL ALAN DID, BIG FAT
> DEAL!!!!! EVERY POST YOU MAKE HERE HAS A THREATENING TONE. CALLING THE
> KETTLE BLACK, ARE WE???
Is there some reason you're screaming hysterically?
Patricia
sweetchild wrote:
> Gawd...lol...Normally you are on 100x a day honey. I work from home and do
> many things in-between going on and off the comp. Many times I am not on for
> a few days... today for YOU was abnormal in otherwords... and you work at a
> real go to work type of job. I did that for 20 years with my other 2
> kids..this time I am home and it takes me seconds to post.
> I did go to the Manilow site-- so what? I wont hide anything. I can go
> where I want and I was curious to see if you were spamming your book there
> too. I see many p'od people there too bc everytime someone posts you are
> correcting their spelling or cursing them out...calling those nice ladies
> at the Manilow site "c*nts" for a word that no one cares about yet you can
> misspell and it is acceptable. Maybe if you were decent, people from all
> groups would regard you a little differently. I have to say there are some
> sharp witted members in that BM group as well. LOL
> Peggy
Huh?
Patricia
sweetchild wrote:
> Furthermore, dont be bitchy with me bc your novelettes didn't fare you
> freedom from the daily grind. If your books were successful you would be
> home working on the next one in your leisure .
> Peggy
I have no idea what you're talking about, and you CLEARLY have no idea
what you're talking about. If anyone can be said to slur their speech
in print, you're doing it now. Are you drunk, or high, or just
generally fucked up?
Subterranean Cinema
claims in the book to have interviewed Alan Graham. She has no problem
admitting that her book's source notes are faulty (with chapter 17 and
18 blended together into one), but for some reason, she's avoiding
direct confrontation with Alan and hasnt replied to this particular
thread at all. There is also no more talk from her about these "tapes"
which, lets face it, were just a bluff on her part. There are no
phone tapes, so you can add that to the long list of Patricia Butler
fabrications.
Patricia
bigg...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Well Fellow posters,
> I believe that together we have witnessed the 'Public Melting' of at
> least two of the
> "Three Witches of Skanktown" who attempted to cast evil spells over
> this thread by twisting people's words, yelling insults and then
> jumping on a nauseating "Semantical Merry-Go-Round" bellowing insults
> as they go round and round and round and round.
> I came her to share my stories and to complete the final chapter of a
> wild 25 year long Sojourn/Quest.and want even these wretches to be
> able to question me if they have any real ones to ask, so even though
> they may try to disrupt this experience for us . we all now know who
> and what they are.
> Shall we go forward?
>
> Al
Does ANYONE know what the fuck you're talking about, or even who the
fuck you're talking about, or to, half the time? You post private
emails -- which is usenet no-no even real assholes like on and Dave
generally don't violate -- and go on long rants calling people --
though no one can tell who at any given moment -- names and making
vague comments about things that might be clear to you but certainly
aren't to anyone else. If you want to make sense, I'm sure someone
would be glad to talk to you. In fact Don will snog you all night long
right now if you'd like. But until you get some control of yourself
and start making sense -- in under 5000 words a shot, please -- you're
just wasting everyone's time and bandwidth.
Patricia
Subterranean Cinema wrote:
> Great job, Al. Youve exposed yet another false story that Patricia
> Butler been propagating on this group, a pretty vile accusation about
> you that, as it turns out, is based completely on second hand hearsay
> allegedly heard in a telephone conversation with some woman who you
> allegedly admitted it to (in yet ANOTHER telephone conversation, which
> makes it THIRD hand info). Its about as weak as evidence gets.
No, Don, "as weak as evidence gets" would be claiming -- as you have
done and are doing now -- that something has been "proven" to be false
because you say so. Yet again, Don, that's not proof -- that's just
you really, really wanting to believe. As for the story you're
referencing above, what are you talking about?
I
> guess some people never learned the lesson of that old kid's game,
> "Telephone", where you whisper a message from ear to ear down the line,
> and then see how badly distorted the message is by the time it reaches
> the end of the line. Its an early, basic life lesson that apparently a
> few regulars here never got the real point of.
Again, what are you talking about?
> This seems to be the case with most of Butler's "research", the
> majority of which was apparently done over the telephone ... she didnt
> actually talk to the person being quoted, but she knows someone who did
> and she got the story from them, so in her eyes thats as good as
> getting it from the person directly, and so she puts quotes around it
> and makes it look as it the person actually said it.
Again, what are you talking about? Be specific.
> Witness her second hand quotes of the "unreliable" Diane Gardiner
> (which were told to her by Randy Ralston because Gardiner wanted money
> for an interview, which then made her a liar in Butler's eyes):
> ___________________________________________
>
> "Pamela really knew she wanted to die at the same age of twenty-seven
> the way Jim died," Diane told Randy, "So we all knew that this was what
> she wanted to do. We knew she was going to go home and overdose and
> commit suicide, and thats just the way it was." Randy had been
> distraught, but, he said, "Diane was so calm about it that she calmed
> me down."
>
> Diane's initial explanation to Randy didnt fit very well with the story
> John Mandell had told the police, though Mandell himself later gave a
> somewhat rearranged version of his original statement to the medical
> examiner. Gardiner, too, later recanted her story, telling Randy
> rather inexplicably, "Oh, darling, I just had to tell you that."
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Kinda sounds like she's trying to make Diane Gardiner seem a little
> cold and heartless in the first paragraph, and a liar who "recanted her
> story" in the second. Butler seems to hold a grudge against anyone who
> asked her for money to be interviewed.
Yes, that must be it. It couldn't be that I accurately reported a
story as it was told to me.
> This is her method of finding a "fact": someone says "one time Tom
> Cruise told me that he is secretly gay", and she reports it publicly as
> "Tom Cruise has admitted in the past that he is secretly gay". What a
> worm.
I did that? Really? Show me where. Or is this your "method of finding
a 'fact': you just make it up and post it on usenet, so it must be
true?
> Personally, I hope you sue the fucking bitch, Alan. If what she's said
> about you hasnt crossed the line into libel, then I dont know what
> would. She's literally accused you of being a wife beater and a
> criminal without any true evidence beyond claims of alleged telephone
> hearsay. That goes quite a bit beyond your average chatroom insults
> flung at various anonymous screennames, this was more like a deliberate
> attempt on the part of Patricia Butler to smear your name publicly and
> attach the label "wife abuser" to it (and judging from the way the
> Lizard Lounge people blindly propagated the story, it worked). She
> really doesnt know when to shut the fuck up for her own good. Maybe
> its time she learned a lesson the hard way. I hope you teach it to
> her. Good luck!
Yes, good luck, Alan. You'd really need it.
Patricia
> Good questions. If Patricia were to produce a recording, then we
> could debate if its actually him or not (and Im sure there are ways to
> find out).
Really? What are those ways? Because I'm fascinated to hear more
about how a bunch of people on usenet who've never talked to Alan
Graham in their lives is going to "debate if it's actually him or not."
Don, you get more ridiculous by the minute with this shit.
At least then there would be proof of a recording, in
> which a man is calling and harassing her using a "spanish accent".
> But to just state she has a recording and then go SILENT when he asks
> her to produce evidence of it, is beyond suspicious.
Yes, I believe I "went silent" by directly answering your question
about it.
The fact that
> Alan Graham is here, openly ready to answer any and all questions put
> to him, and that she has responded to that by disappearing, after weeks
> of relentless posting ... well, cmon. I think its obvious that she was
> bluffing about the recording, hoping that it would intimidate him, and
> he called her on it. Now that she has to either put up or shut up,
> she's chosen to shut up. Draw your own conclusions.
I "disappeared" because I didn't post a response within the hour? Are
you serious? Are you truly so completely addicted to this place that
you never leave it for ten minutes together, so that it seems if
someone else does they've "left"? I don't believe there's been a 24
hours period when I haven't posted here in recent memory. Prove me
wrong.
Patricia
There were two people who wanted money -- Graham and Gardiner.
Gardiner was willing to share if the price was high enough but, with
zero dollars, said her memories were "too painful." Get that? Money
takes away the pain -- no money, too much pain. Graham didn't just
want money, he wanted a percentage of the book. Not only that, he was
willing to go in either direction I wanted him to -- trash Pam
completely, or praise Pam completely -- for the right price. Does that
suggest credibility to you?
Subterranean Cinema
Rosie. You must have reupped your diet pills today, eh?
Subterranean Cinema
Youre a fucking coward, Patricia. No wonder you do all of your
research over the phone.