Classic guitar part in Spanish Caravan
aj
Who is the classic guitar part in Spanish Caravan by?
thanks
aj
could you email me, I don't check news often
a...@abs.net
ath...@azstarnet.com
had it in him did ya?
WAIT4SUN
the version of "Spanish Caravan" on "The Doors are Open" video is awesome.
Check it out.
Mr. Mojo Risin'
Well there is a piece of music by a German composer in the "Spanish
style" from, I believe, the 1800's, that when I first heard it I was
totally blown away.. I thought I was hearing 'Spanish Caravan" it was
that close. I tried to catch the name of the piece but couldn't under
stand the name of the piece or the composer.. <g> If any one knows
the name of this I'd like to know too. If you ever heard it, you
wouldn't forget it.. Its about 99% Spanish Caravan...
Later...
Mr.Mojo Risin'
"Yeah, I'm proud to be a part of this number"
**************************************************************
-= Mojo Risin' - The Doors =-
http://www.the-doors.com
Poetry, FAQs, Midis, Lyrics, Bootlegs, Discographys, RealAudio
E-mail: mo...@the-doors.com (Mr. Mojo Risin')
"Keep the whole thing going, baby!"
**************************************************************
Jacknife
On Wed, 28 Jan 1998 09:16:36 -0700, ath...@azstarnet.com wrote:
aj wrote:
>
> Who is the classic guitar part in Spanish Caravan by?
>
> thanks
> aj
> could you email me, I don't check news often
> a...@abs.net
the answer to that question is good ol' robby krieger... didn't know
he
had it in him did ya?
I always thought Krieger was one of the most underrated guitarists of
his time (so did he). But, really, that Spanish guitar thing isn't
that hard to play if you know any flamengo guitar at all. But I like
it.
WAIT4SUN
I always think it's funny when someone who plays guitar says "It ain't that
hard to play"...lol Copying something is easy, inventing it is another
story....
Jacknife
Yeah, I hate it when people say that too, so let me clarify a bit.
That little thing in "Spanish Caravan" w/ the nylon guitar strings
isn't that hard to play because it isn't all that original a rift....
it's been done a zillion times. Back in the 60s if someone did a song
in a minor key with an extra sharp or flat (which is how the Spanish
Caravan thing's written), everyone thought they were listening to an
astounding bit of classical music. Basically because almost every bit
of rock music written back then (and now) is done in a simple, major
key, 6-note structure (flegling guitarist call em "power chords).
That's one of the reasons I really loved Krieger's stuff. It was
understated, never obnoxiously out-in-front, and really creative.
"Moonlight Drive" and "Love Me Two Times" have some simiple chord
structure but they're also two of the most memorable rifts I've ever
heard.
Saying something's simple isn't being critical. Less is more in most
art. It does take a genius to write a memorable, cool hook that burns
itself into your brain.
Jacknife
Not to drag this out or to be argumentative because I didn't interpret
your post as being such, but I do write a lotta music myself. I have
a fairly elaborate recording studio here in the house & I've been
playing lead electric guitar (among udder things) for over 30
years.... and although I love that little Spanish Caravan thing, too,
I learned how to play it after about two listens when I was 16 years
old. I guess mebbe the reason some musicians say it's easy to play
some stuff is because those are the only items they could say that
about. I mean, it's pretty easy to play your own stuff, y'know? Who
the hell would know if you made a mistake? lol
WAIT4SUN
i'm glad that you clarified yourself. I totally agree with you that "less is
more". I also like your point that Robby Krieger's "stuff, was understated and
never obnoxiously out in front". This statement can also be said for the other
2 musicians, John Densmore and Ray Manzarek. It may not also take a genuius to
write a "memorable, cool hook that burns into your brain", but just think of
the thousands of guitar players in the world who would love to have created
what Robbie created. Is it just luck?
WAIT4SUN
hhmm...so, if you play your own music...who would ever know if you made a
mistake? Actually, every artist who ever created something is never satisfied
with their final achievement. It could be painting, literature, music, stage
or any art.
It also doesn't matter how easy it is to play Spanish Caravan.
All i know is, most musicians play in wedding bands performing the "Chicken
Dance". Few musicians achieve what Robby Krieger achieved. So, you can take
you in home studio and practice the Chicken Dance.
WAIT4SUN
one other thing...You've been playing and recording your own music for 30
years? ..If u can listen to Krieger's music and learn it after 2
listenings.... Imagine what he can do with your music.. Please tell me your
name is Eric Clapton...please...
Jacknife
Now there's one of the most over-rated guitarists who ever lived,
Clapton.... hehe The idol of every 14-year old boy and wistful
American housewife. You seem to have let the rather insignificant
point I was making fly right over your head. I wasn't criticizing
Krieger's guitar work; I've loved his stuff since 1968, when I was in
high school. And of course I harbor no illusions about being able to
play as good---c'moff it, stop reading stuff into my post that was
never there. All I said was that "Spanish Caravan" isn't that hard to
play, 'cause it's NOT. Doesn't mean it's not good, or that someone
else is a genius because he could figure it out. It was easy to pick
up the notes & chord progressions in that particular song because it's
just not that original.... it's been done a bazillion times in half
the Spanish acoustic guitar songs ever written. I always thought it
was cool the way Robbie worked it into the unusual environment of a
rock album, though. I have no doubt Krieger could dance rings around
the stuff I do.... mine's just for fun, not a living, just something
to play around with on the side to relieve stress & have fun w/
friends. I've always thought Krieger was an excellent
guitarist....and I was always proud of the Doors kinda being "my" band
when I was a kid----because contrary to modern legend, they were NOT
that mainstream at all when they were initially released. They really
weren't all that commercially successful (certainly not be today's
standards), and they were only in the public limelight for a couple of
years. Most people thought of Morrison as a sick drunk who's lyrics
were pretentious and derivative. I never agreed. I've also been
lucky enough to have lived here in Clearwater for the last 25 years or
so, and been able to make friends with Tom Reese, who owns the Beaux
Arts Gallery where Morrison recited poetry and played (get this) a
ukelele when he was a student at St. Petersburg Junior College (just
before transferring to UCLA). I always thought the Doors were unique
in that Morrison really defined the role of the rock star who lived
the life and didn't just pose for it and then went home to mow the
lawn after the concert, and that they all gelled together just right,
at just the right time. Apart, none of them were exceptional enough
to have made a very big mark. Manzarek understood Morrison and kept
him on just a short enough theatrical lease so that he didn't harm
himself (at least at first), and his cheap organ sound was perfect for
the dramatic flair the Doors developed----but alone, Manzarek is
boring, I'm sorry to say; too stiff, no spirit, and a really
go-to-sleep droning voice. Krieger was (as I posted previously, which
I suspect you didn't read) probably the most underrated guitarist of
his age; his hooks and solos and jazz chords were heads above anything
anyone else was doing at the time, yet he kept it all subdued enough
and non-egotistical that the band came off as a cohesive unit---but
alone, with the Butt Brothers, etc., jeez.... he's OK, but
forgettable. Let's be real----"Tell All The People"??? (Good god).
And Densmore---I used to love the way he'd use the drums more as an
enhancement to the mood of the moment rather than as a simple rhythmic
percussive instrument (listen to "The End", the really quiet
parts--you'll hear an incredibly loud snare drum explosion here &
there, placed just strategically enough that you won't even notice it
unless you're listening for it---too cool)---- but alone, man---have
you read his book? The man must have an IQ well below 75. Not a
genius by a long shot. All in all, the Doors and the Velvet
Underground and maybe the Stooges, IMHO were the groundbreaking acts
of genius in the late 60s, and almost the only music of my youth that
I still listen to.
Alric Knebel
>garr...@ix.netcom.com (Jacknife) wrote:
>All in all, the Doors and the Velvet Underground and maybe
>the Stooges, IMHO were the groundbreaking acts of genius
>in the late 60s, and almost the only music of my youth that
>I still listen to.
Back in the 60s, I bought an Iggy Wiggy & The Stooges album (the one
with "1969" on it) based on a remark similiar to this I had read in
CIRCUS magazine, which praised The Stooges and even made a direct
comparison to The Doors, and even went so far as to compare Iggy with
Morrison. I bought the album -- not yet wise to the blatant "hype"
accompanying most rock & roll acts -- and frankly, I didn't see the
"genius" in it. The songs were comprised of extremely repetitive
chord patterns, and once you heard the first verse, you heard the
whole song and there was nothing else to hear, completely unlike a
Doors composition. The lyrics were so sophomoric as to be unbearable,
especially after I had already been acclimated to a higher standard
through the structure and the lyrics of Doors songs. I was baffled by
the praise for the album shovelled out in the CIRCUS article. I
played the album a few times, hoping some hidden wonderment would be
revealed, but it never happened. About ten years later, a friend of
mine who collected albums mentioned that he was looking for that album
to complete his Stooges collection. I said I owned that album. He
asked me what condition it was in. "Mint condition," I said. "It was
played about five times." He offered me something like $40 for it. I
was almost angry with his eagerness to shell out good cash for such
garbage. "There is no way that this is worth $40. No way. Here, I
can't do that to you. YOU CAN JUST HAVE IT." For any collector, such
a find would make for a very happy day, since the album jacket and the
condition of the vinyl were like new. But throw in the fact that it
was acquired FREE, and, man, a collector would just about be tempted
to accept Jesus as his Savior. I myself hadn't accepted Jesus as my
Savior, but I had a clear idea of who He was, and He definitely would
not have approved of me leaving a fellow traveler vulnerable to
shysters by his lack of taste. The only thing to do was offer it up
as a gift. It was an act of mercy.
Every time I hear "Iggy" mentioned, I think of that CIRCUS article,
that goofy album, and my gift to my friend. Iggy improved later on
after he changed his name to Iggy Pop, and David Bowie produced an
album for him, but you can tell the improvement was a direct result of
Bowie's genius, and not Iggy's.
I just can't see the "genius" in Iggy: "So messed up, I want you
here/ in my room, I want you near/ . . . Now I wanna be your dog, now
I wanna be your dog."
Or this: "It's 1969, okay/all across the U.S.A./ Another year for me
and you/ another year with nuttin' to do./ Another year for me and you
Oh, my, and a boo hoo." My God, man. That's awful.
_____________________________________________
Alric Knebel
al...@datasync.com
_____________________________________________
Jacknife
To each his or her own. The Stooges, in my opinion, were every bit
the groundbreakers that the Doors were, and not just because Elektra
Records scarfed em up out of Detroit in search of a Doors follow-up
act. The Doors first album knocked me out; the music had a savage,
in-your-face impact, and Morrison's presence was so violent... unlike
anything I'd ever heard before. Their music has endured. The Stooges
weren't about endurance. Their music was SUPPOSED to be simplisitic,
to the point of many people wondering if these guys had ever bothered
to learn how to play their instruments. It was loud, temporary,
angry, drugged, unpretty. It wasn't about technical prowess or hoping
to become a "classic" rock band someday. It embodied the true spirit
of rock---the anarchy, chaos, lashing out, the general "fuck you"
attitude we all experience when we're young. I often wonder, without
the Stooges, whether or not we'd ever gotten the Sex Pistols. I think
not. I completely disagree about "I Wanna Be Your Dog." I first
heard that song when I was about 14 and it stuck with me the rest of
my life. The obvious attack on the Beatle's pansy title "I Wanna Be
Your Man" aside, it was the first song about BDS&M that anyone had
ever had the balls to put onto a record (except maybe for "Venus In
Furs" by the VU---can't remember which one came out first). I still
love to listen to the first Stooges album today.... and the second,
when they discoverd reverb. Most rock music lyrics are moronic,
cannot begin to stand on their own merit without a backdrop of music.
Rock was never supposed to be about egotistical musicians showing off
their virtuosity with their instruments----the best bands captured the
SPIRIT, the recklessness, the insanity and the wasted youth. I can
still appreciate the historical importance this album had. It was
tremendous. So the guitar work sucked and the lyrics were stupid----
that's what gives it a great part of its appeal. It's like an inside
joke. You either get it or you don't......... Oh yeah, I don't
quite agree that Iggy was influenced so heavily by Bowie. It was the
other way around (as Bowie himself has stated in numerous interviews,
and which is obvious in his personas over the years----especially
Ziggy Stardust). Bowie was repaying a debt of gratitude when he
helped Iggy out, getting his career back on track after he'd gotten so
derailed with drugs. Same with Lou Reed and "Transformer." Bowie's
often said that Reed and Pop were his two primary influences, if not
in the music but in the style.
On Sun, 01 Feb 1998 22:19:04 GMT, al...@datasync.com (Alric Knebel)
wrote:
Alric Knebel
I have to say that this is an interesting discussion, and you seem to
make your point well. You sound well informed. But you have me
wondering if you simply aren't biased in your view. How can you say
that Bowie's Ziggy Stardust character came out of some influence from
Iggy? That get-up was influenced by Bowie's relationship with drag
and theater, and it even bears some influence from mime (Bowie studied
mime). And Bowie's music is light years away from anything like The
Stooges. I saw Bowie perform during the Ziggy tour, and I was a big
fan of his, and I simply don't see the influence in any way, shape, or
form. NOTHING in Bowie's personna even remotely hints at such an
influence. If Iggy was such an influence on Bowie, why did the Iggy
album produced by Bowie sound so different from his previous albums?
Also, if you look at Bowie's career, he was a changling, going from
one musical style to another. At none of those stops does he sound
anything like Iggy. I know it would be unfair of me to ask for
sources for your comments, since I'm aware by my own experience that
we sometimes read articles and absorb the content at the moment while
discarding the source. Still, I have to wonder about them. Just as I
couldn't see the genius in Iggy, I can't see any influence of Iggy's
supposed genius in Bowie's work. If it was there, it would have to
show up somewhere, even though they are very different performers.
For instance, if you listen to Danzig, you can hear that this singer
is definitely influenced by Morrison's phrasings. He lacks Morrison's
finesse, but he compensates for it with a forceful presense. The
influence is still there. Billy Idol is another performer who bears a
Morrisonesque style. In either act, though the similiarity to the
Doors' sound overall is remote, the influence can still be discerned.
I can't say the same for Bowie, that he bears any signs of musical or
theatrical influence by Iggy.
I enjoyed your view though, and I appreciate the fact that you didn't
go ballistic on my opinion.
>garr...@ix.netcom.com (Jacknife) wrote:
_____________________________________________
Alric Knebel
al...@datasync.com
_____________________________________________
Jacknife
Hey, Alric,
I can see this discussion may drag on for a lifetime or so.......))
No problem; that's what these forums are for, I guess. So now I'm
gonna be obnoxious and once again restate my own prejudiced, albeit
semi-informed personal opinons.
I don't go ballistic in these newsgroups when someone disagrees with
me, and it's always good to run across someone else who doesn't
either. Maturity brings the tolerance of listening to someone's
dissenting opinion about an issue without taking it as a personal
insult. I can only roll my eyes when I see some brainless kid in here
who disagrees with a post, responding by questioning the sexual
preferences of the poster's mother. The correlation escapes me. I'm
not a kid anymore, not by a longshot (although I won't argue with the
fact that I'm emotionally challenged)...... music's still a big part
of my life but with age comes all kinds of more important facets,
little items like career, marriage, divorce, children, politics, life,
death, reality.... blah blah blah. It's difficult for me to take
these newsgroups seriously enough to get mad at someone's post, let
alone get mad at the person himself. After all, it's only
rock'n'roll. There's little in the world less important and more
trivial.
Danzig and Idol may like to believe they're arguably damaged
reincarnations of Jim Morrison but I fail to see them as little more
than manufactured, over-produced, marginally talented copycats who
wish they were someone they're not, modeling themselves after guys
who've been dead and rotting in their graves for decades. Not that I
entirely hate their stuff. It just hasn't got that same
diamond-bullet-in-the-center-of-your-forehead impact that Morrison's
had. Not even close. Not even 10,000 light years close.
HOWEVER.......ahem (here we go again). I beg to differ about the
source of influence here. One of Bowie's more famous quotes is, "A
good artist is nothing more than a tasteful thief," referring to
Bowie's own predilection to borrow a bit here, a bit there, a bit from
everyone he currently favors in order to invent his personality or his
musical style of the moment. He's never pretended to be something new
under the sun, yet his ability to almost transparently borrow the
right elements from a variety of sources often make him appear to be
entirely unique. Combined with his many other talents, this ability
has caused him to strike paydirt time and time again in establishing a
common denominator for his current and older fan base while continuing
to expose himself to newer ones. No one admires Bowie more than me.
The man is, IMHO, one of the very very few geniuses in rock music,
from both a musical, visual and a marketing standpoint...... That
doesn't, however, go to say that he hasn't stolen/borrowed from a lot
of sources along the way. By his own admission, he's done so all of
his life. Everyone does. He's just more honest than most.
(I fail to recall how we got off on such a tangent discussing David
Bowie/Iggy Pop in the Doors newsgroup, but what the fuck. Ray
Manzarek at one time considered hiring Iggy to replace Morrison, so
that in some way qualifies us not to be forced to switch this to
"alt.fan.iggy-pop," right?)
Anyway, back to my rather elusive point. Back in 1971 while Bowie was
considering signing with RCA, among other labels, he began inventing a
character called Ziggy Stardust, envisioning "Ziggy" to be based upon
but even more outrageous than Iggy Pop; a kind of sci-fi LA
convergence of styles. In August 1971 he finally signed a 6-year
recording agreement with Gem (post-dated, for some confusing reason,
to April 1970) which he later regretted. Bowie was NOT in big demand
and had been turned down by every label he'd approached (the result of
his miserable track record to date of only one hit song, three album
failures, and fourteen failed singles). This was during the same time
Bowie was hanging out with Ultra Violet, Lou Reed, Iggy Pop, Dianne
Bennett, and a lot of other Andy Warhol hangers-on. He had penned
much of "The Rise and Fall of Ziggy Stardust and the Spiders From
Mars" lyrics and conceptual descriptions long before he even released
Hunky Dory. He also has said that he was even somewhat influenced by
the idea of a fictional-band-within-a-band concept first explored in
the Billy Shears/Sgt Pepper album. Bowie gave countless interviews
during this period (most of which never reached the press until later,
after he became famous) saying that he was bowled over by Iggy Pop's
outrageousness, but that he intended to be "much more outrageous than
Iggy Pop and the Stooges have ever been."
During that period Tony Defries, Bowie's manager, persuaded him to
hang out with Lou Reed because he was considered "cult," with a
distinctive underground following, which might spill over into Bowie's
court, making him more popular in America, at least with the more
hard-core, jaded, heroin-chic New York audience. Indirectly, while
visiting the Max's Kansas City club, Bowie also managed to get himself
introduced to Iggy Pop---who initially wasn't interested in bothering
to meet Bowie, but relented when his manager Danny Fields convinced
Iggy that Bowie had enhanced Iggy's English record sales by repeatedly
citing him as a major influence during his English interviews with the
press. It was during this time that Bowie became impressed with Pop's
baritone foghorn, off-stage voice (even though on-stage Pop was still
emulating Mick Jagger), one of the main voices Bowie continues to use
today.
Bowie loved Iggy Pop because Pop was THEATRE, and Bowie wanted theatre
in his act. Being a visual as well as an audio artist, Bowie was as
much image conscious as he was interested in writing good music. He
often referred to his heroes as being people like Iggy Pop, Lou Reed,
Marc Bolan, and Alice Cooper---all of them excessive, flamboyant,
self-destructive types of questionable gender. Being a bit on the
naive side regarding hard drugs, Bowie was also obsessed with Iggy's
natural talent for self-destruction, which wasn't restricted to only
his on-stage persona. By this time, Iggy was already addicted to
heroin and had to make daily stops to the methadone clinic prior to
his meetings with Bowie. Tony Defries was the one who talked Pop into
detoxing from methadone so that he could travel and get his career on
track after his initial tiny bit of commercial success with the
Stooges (although it wasn't a huge seller, "The Stooges" met with
great critical acclaim). He and Bowie became fast friends and
business associates after this point. Incidentally, it was Iggy Pop
who introduced Bowie to the term "Main Man," which was later to become
the name of his company, Main Main Ltd.
During Bowie's first major American tour, he desperately needed the
crossover appeal of being associated with Iggy Pop because of Iggy's
machismo, butch persona----it would help bridge the destructive
alienation Bowie had accidentally created by admitting to the press
that he was homosexual. (Even though he was married at the time, the
term bisexual hadn't really been widely used yet, and the world's
audience was NOT yet ready to pay to see a red-haired, pale, thin,
shrieking, flaming space mutant banshee in tights who voiced an
unnatural fondness for men). During this tour, after Pop had gotten
himself off methadone for a while, Tony Defries helped put together
"Raw Power," the first Iggy Pop album without the Stooges. Even
though the careers of Bowie and Pop were tightly intertwined, Defries
decided shortly afterwards that Pop shouldn't appear in public until
the public clamored to see him, and holed him up in his LA Main Main
West mansion, where Iggy quickly fell back into heavy heroin use
partially because of his jealousy that Bowie was now the one getting
all the management's attention. When Pop finally demanded that
Defries put up or shut up, Defries booked him for one show in his old
hometown Detroit, where Iggy decided to get loaded on dope, take all
of his clothes off on stage, and announce over the intercom that he
was going to start masturbating now. Defries terminated his contract
immediately. Bowie didn't see Pop for over a year after that.
After Bowie's popularity started to soar, Iggy showed up on Bowie's
doorstep one day completely broke, addicted to dope, dirty, ragged,
looking like hell, begging for food and a place to sleep. Bowie
admired Pop because, unlike himself, Pop wasn't an invented,
calculated, manufactured actor. Iggy was exactly what he appeared to
be: the real thing, a drugged-out, not-entirely-sane, violent,
masochistic, living breathing example of American rock'n'roll ethos, a
doomed, poetic, tragic, classic victim with no one to blame but
himself. While appearing to take pity upon this lost soul, Bowie was
in part using him, studying him, incorporating little bits of The Ig
into his own personality. Bowie was cold, detached, and emotionless,
whereas Pop was loud, outrageous, and angry. Iggy delighted in trying
to shock Bowie by doing little things like ordering massive amounts of
food into Bowie's suite and then rubbing it all over his naked body,
just to piss Bowie off with the ensuing mess. Where Bowie longed to
APPEAR uninhibited, Pop really was. Iggy Pop truly didn't give a fuck
what anyone thought about him. Bowie might drop cleverly-worded hints
about his own deviant sexual behavior in public, but Pop would
actually DEMONSTRATE his on a moment's notice. Bowie would try to put
forth the image of the angst-ridden rock star, but Pop was really
killing himself while the world watched, morbidly entertained.
Years later in 1976 Bowie and Pop were arrested together in LA on
marijuana charges about six months after they'd done some recording
together (during Bowie's Cabaret period and just before the
incarnation of the Thin White Duke). Pop had been slated to tour with
Bowie but suddenly disappeared, turning up as a patient in UCLA's
Neuropsychiatric Institute several days later, where Bowie visited
him.
Regarding Iggy Pop's direct influence on David Bowie's writing, it's
obvious and has been stated many times by Bowie that Ziggy Stardust
was created from the inspiration of Iggy Pop's personality. He's also
said that his album "Diamond Dogs" was a concept generated from the
title of Iggy's song "I Wanna Be Your Dog," replete with visions of
sado-masochism, B&D, apocalyptic darkness, hopelessness, doom. And of
course we have "China Girl," the song that Iggy Pop (a/k/a James
Osterberg, his real name) wrote about his Oriental girlfriend and
released on "The Idiot," which Bowie covered on "Let's Dance" with a
more middle-of-the-road, polished, commercialized sound (while
introducing the world to a relatively unknown guitarist named Stevie
Ray Vaughan). In "China Girl" Bowie almost entirely mimics Pop's
bass/baritone, emotionless vocal style, a style that has now come to
be known more as the "David Bowie Sound, " but one which Pop
originated. It was about this time that England fell into the throes
of the punk explosion, spawned in large part by the influence of Iggy
Pop more than by any one other person. Sid Vicious and Johnny Rotten
often spoke of Iggy Pop with godlike reverence, and Vicious' parlor
tricks like cutting his chest with broken glass, throwing himself
offstage, performing with a syringe hanging out of his arm, etc., were
directly stolen from Iggy's act of years before. Bowie recognized the
upcoming shift in public taste and quickly adapted, volunteering to
play keyboards during Iggy Pop's 1977 tour promoting his "The Idiot"
album, a calculated move on his part to be intentionally camoflauged
into the background by Pop's domineering presence, thus guaranteeing
Bowie a back-door entrance into the world of punk popularity. He
became known to many as one of punk's founding fathers (or
grandfathers, depending upon the age of the person making the
comment), an idea reinforced by the Ziggy Stardust haircuts worn by so
many punks.
It was right after this period, during the "Low" and "Heroes" time,
that Bowie's career hit a slump even though he'd begun associating
with brilliant artists like Brian Eno, Robert Fripp, Carlos Alomar,
Andrew Belew, and Marc Bolan. Pop's career, however, was on the
upswing. Punks loved Iggy Pop, who was considered the Real Thing.
Bowie turned his attention to playing second fiddle for a while, and
worked with Pop in Berlin to record "Lust for Life" (not so much to
charitably "help" Pop's faltering career---as so many people
assume---but to weld himself to Pop's public image so that Bowie
wouldn't be left out in the cold during this new wave of more
aggressive, chaotic, anarchic, loud musical movement). Years later in
1984 Bowie released "Tonight," the title track of which was a song
co-written years earlier by Iggy Pop (featuring a nearly-forgotten
'60s singer named Tina Turner who soon afterwards enjoyed a huge
comeback).
Well, anyway, I could go on & on & on citing billions of examples of
how Bowie was not only influenced but in large part INVENTED by the
entity of Iggy Pop, but sadly, I've got a life (be that it may) and I
must get to work or I'll have armies of enraged clients out for my
head on a platter. Not a pretty sight.
I still think Iggy Pop was/is a hugely influential,
creative/destructive force in modern music. But maybe he's more a
"musician's musician" than a pop star, like Lou Reed was for so long.
You probably remember the old story about how the first Velvet
Underground album only sold 10,000 copies upon release (one of which,
I'm proud to say, I bought), but that every person who bought one
later became a musician. A similar comparison can be made for Iggy
Pop, I think. He's probably inspired thousands of people to become
rock stars. But he was there first, doing the bizarre things he did
not out of hunger for commercial success or as a poseur, but because
that's just him. The original. The maniac. The idiot. One foot on
a stage, the other in a grave. Bowie loved the idea of that excess
and spent many years attempting to emulate it.
By the way (and far off the subject), although I appreciate and love
the Stooges for more than just their sense of historical importance
and for the footnote they've made in American music, it's Lou Reed
that's always been my main man. No one else has ever come close.
He's managed to write the Great American Novel using rock music as a
backdrop. He was the first rock musician to hold a mirror up to the
ugly, dirty, hidden side of American life, stripped of all pretenses,
and in so doing became caught up in his own image of himself......
causing many of us to wonder if art imitates life or if life imitates
art. Or both. And, in my opinion, he's one of the very rare people
who've managed to actually get BETTER as he's gotten older, and who's
true inner spirit became rekindled and blossomed after he'd given up
the narcotics that were such an integral part of himself for so long.
Most writers just get complacent, fat, bald and boring after they give
up their vices and get old. Lou proved he has substance.
Sorry to have made this post so long. I wouldn't blame someone if
they sue me for hogging the bandwidth. I guess this could be a
lesson: don't challenge me 'cause I'm a walkin' talkin' monolith of
rock'n'roll uselss trivia, packed full of information guaranteed to
enrich no one's life.
So in conclusion, Bowie was inarguably and heavily influenced by Iggy
Pop. Ask him yourself.
So there.
Nanny-nanny-poo-poo.
Well, see ya.
Jacknife
garr...@ix.netcom.com
On Tue, 03 Feb 1998 04:51:07 GMT, al...@datasync.com (Alric Knebel)
wrote:
I have to say that this is an interesting discussion, and you seem to
>garr...@ix.netcom.com (Jacknife) wrote:
_____________________________________________
Alric Knebel
al...@datasync.com
_____________________________________________
Jacknife garr...@ix.netcom.com
Jacknife
Hey, Alric,
I can see this discussion may drag on for a lifetime or two.......))
No problem; that's what these forums are for, I guess. So like it or
not, I'm gonna be obnoxious and once again restate my own prejudiced,
albeit semi-informed personal opinons.
I don't go ballistic in these newsgroups when someone disagrees with
me, and it's always refreshing to run across someone else who doesn't
either. Maturity brings the tolerance of listening to someone's
dissenting opinion about an issue without taking it as a personal
insult. I can only roll my eyes when I see some brainless kid in here
who disagrees with a post, responding by questioning the sexual
preferences of the poster's mother. The correlation escapes me. I'm
not a kid anymore, not by a longshot (although I won't argue with the
fact that I'm proudly immature and emotionally challenged)......
music's still a big part of my life but with age comes all kinds of
more important facets, little items like career, marriage, divorce,
children, politics, life, death, mortality, reality, real estate,
business, mortgages.... blah blah blah. It's difficult for me to take
who've managed to actually get BETTER as he's gotten older, and whose
true inner spirit became rekindled and blossomed after he'd given up
the narcotics that were such an integral part of himself for so long.
Most writers just get complacent, fat, bald and boring after they give
up their vices and get old. Lou proved he has substance.
Sorry to have made this post so long. I wouldn't blame someone if
they sue me for hogging the bandwidth. I guess this could be a
lesson: don't challenge me 'cause I'm a walkin' talkin' monolith of
rock'n'roll uselss trivia, packed full of information guaranteed to
enrich no one's life.
So in conclusion, Bowie was inarguably and heavily influenced by Iggy
Pop. Ask him yourself.
So there.
Nanny-nanny-poo-poo.
Well, see ya.
Jacknife
garr...@ix.netcom.com
On Tue, 03 Feb 1998 04:51:07 GMT, al...@datasync.com (Alric Knebel)
wrote:
I have to say that this is an interesting discussion, and you seem to
>garr...@ix.netcom.com (Jacknife) wrote:
_____________________________________________
Alric Knebel
al...@datasync.com
_____________________________________________
Jacknife garr...@ix.netcom.com
WAIT4SUN
<yawn>
P
He's right. It is not hard to play. I suck at guitar, and I can play the
motherfucker. It's still cool as shit.
Jacknife
Jacknife blows a .357 hole thru WAIT4SUN's left arm. "Oh, exCUSE me!
Did I interrupt your train of thought?"
On 3 Feb 1998 19:56:56 GMT, wait...@aol.com (WAIT4SUN) wrote:
<yawn>
Jacknife garr...@ix.netcom.com
themissinglink
Jacknife wrote:
> It just hasn't got that same
> diamond-bullet-in-the-center-of-your-forehead impact that Morrison's
> had. Not even close. Not even 10,000 light years close.
Brilliant and perfectly put.
(as was your whole post... a pleasure.)
Jacknife
Wed, 04 Feb 1998 19:15:58 -0600, themissinglink
<bydivin...@mcleodusa.net> wrote:
Jacknife wrote:
> It just hasn't got that same
> diamond-bullet-in-the-center-of-your-forehead impact that Morrison's
> had. Not even close. Not even 10,000 light years close.
Brilliant and perfectly put.
(as was your whole post... a pleasure.)
Tanx.......:)
Jacknife garr...@ix.netcom.com
Alric Knebel
Awesome post. Thanks, Jack.
Alric Knebel
>wait...@aol.com (WAIT4SUN) wrote:
><yawn>
Look, Jack, you were right. You said it: An intelligent and
informative conversation would be too much for the ADD afflicted
readers among us. Three or four good sentences put together and
already the bozo at the back of the class is falling asleep. And
compelled to brag about it!
WAIT4SUN
It's real intelligent calling someone a bozo when you don't even know them.
You are such a genius because you can converse on David Bowie and Iggy Popp.
I am soooo envious. I wish i could be as smart as you. Too think, Bowie and
Popp should be discussed in a doors newsgroup under the title of "Spanish
Caravan" is amazing. I am flabbergasted, how did you become so smart?? Geez,
maybe i should put my head down and fall asleep on my BA in Communications. I
just can't communicate like the 2 of you...
mike
Jacknife
This is exactly the type of juvenile response to which I referred in
one of my earlier posts. Thanks for making a public spectacle of
yourself.
You know, I was impressed with Alric because, despite the fact that we
disagreed on issues, we both refrained from immature name-calling and
attacking the other person's character, staying focused on the
subjects of discussion instead, resulting in mutual respect and giving
both of us the opportunity to learn something. I wouldn't know if
you're really a bozo or not because, fortunately, I've endured the
distasteful experience of meeting you (thank god for small blessings),
but your knee-jerk reactions are childish and certainly characteristic
of the actions of a bozo.
I'm glad you pointed out yourself that your communication skills are
lower than average. You saved me the trouble of pointing that out
myself.
If you're going to discuss an artist, get it right. The name is
spelled Pop, not Popp (that's "Pee-Oh-Pee," assuming that your
phonetic strengths are as weak as your spelling).
As a matter of fact, I don't even really have to say anything to make
you look like a boring, limited, inarticulate, uninformed, moronic,
weak, timid, frightened, spoiled brat. You're doing a fine job
proving the point all by yourself! All we have to do is sit back and
enjoy the show.
It's difficult to read your post without envisioning you at the end of
your blabbering, sticking your tongue out running home to mommy
before the big kids can kick your ass again. You're quite the clever
wordsmith. Impressed the hell out of me. Whew......!
mike
Jacknife garr...@ix.netcom.com
WAIT4SUN
>, we both refrained from immature name-calling and
>attacking the other person's character
funny, as i recall you named me as a bozo.
Jacknife
Well, if that's what you recall then perhaps you should go re-read the
post once again. I didn't say you were a bozo (whatever a bozo is).
I said "your knee-jerk reactions are childish and certainly
characteristic of the actions of a bozo." They are.
Jacknife garr...@ix.netcom.com
Alric Knebel
>wait...@aol.com (WAIT4SUN) wrote:
>It's real intelligent calling someone a bozo when you don't even know them.
>You are such a genius because you can converse on David Bowie and Iggy Popp.
>I am soooo envious. I wish i could be as smart as you. Too think, Bowie and
>Popp should be discussed in a doors newsgroup under the title of "Spanish
>Caravan" is amazing. I am flabbergasted, how did you become so smart?? Geez,
>maybe i should put my head down and fall asleep on my BA in Communications. I
>just can't communicate like the 2 of you...
The conversation goes where it goes. Just because it's a Doors
newsgroup doesn't EXCLUDE the mention of any other proper nouns. If
you follow the thread, the evolution of the discussion was completely
natural.
And as for you're going to sleep on your BA, maybe you should consider
it. Don't be so impressed with yourself. I don't have a BA in
ANYTHING, and I've comported myself in this conversation with more
intelligence. Your paper is not a sign of your intelligence. I've
known some real idiots with degrees, and I've known some fine,
intelligent, expressive people who worked strictly with their hands.
Bozos come in all shapes and sizes. It's a choice. The key is
"consideration". You're remark was completely uncalled for. You in
no way contributed to the discussion. I picture it like this: You
were restless and wanted something to do, but had nothing constructive
to say, so you took a cheap shot for lack of creativity.
If you didn't want to read what the man said, you didn't have to. But
there was no point in trying to be ugly.
Alric Knebel
>wait...@aol.com (WAIT4SUN) wrote:
>funny, as i recall you named me as a bozo.
No. Credit where credit is due. I'm the one who named you a bozo.
WAIT4SUN
<yawn> U guys are boring me again. I'm not going to get in some childish
argument with you. Grow up. I read this newsgroup because I like the doors.
That's all. You're not worth anymore of my time.
Alric Knebel
>wait...@aol.com (WAIT4SUN) wrote:
><yawn> U guys are boring me again. . . .
Like I said before, that shouldn't be too hard.
WAIT4SUN
Hey Alric, buy a vowel.
Jacknife
I have no doubt you're bored. Must be cool to be blessed with the
attention span of a 6-week old puppy. You don't have to bother
yourself with any of those messy, tiring activities like.....thinking.
On 9 Feb 1998 04:09:02 GMT, wait...@aol.com (WAIT4SUN) wrote:
Hey Alric, buy a vowel.
Jacknife garr...@ix.netcom.com
WAIT4SUN
> You don't have to bother
>yourself with any of those messy, tiring activities like.....thinking.
>
>
by a <yawn>??? You have too much time on your hands if all you can do is
berate someone in a newsgroup. Get a life and be a man. I could guarantee
that you would never talk like this to someone face to face. It's so easy to
be a tough guy on here Alric. Grow the fuck up. You are a cock sucking loser
and I would say that to your face. Now listen to this, I am no longer
responding to your immature little posts. This is the first and only time I'm
going to act as immaturely as you. You insult my intelligence when you don't
know the first thing about me. All I wanted from this doors newsgroup was to
talk about.....The Doors!!.. what a fucking concept!! Be a man for once and
shut the fuck up.
Jacknife
You'll respond or your tiny little pea-brain will just drive you
nuts....:)) You've not yet demonstrated so much as a smattering of
adult restraint and it would be a shocking miracle if you did.
Actually, as a matter of fact, I DO have exactly the right amount of
time on my hands to get some kicks out of your pointless newsgroup
posts. As the owner of a reasonably successful manufacturing
business, I'm able to structure my days virtually in any manner that
pleases me. It's no big deal for me to sit around all day in my
underwear if the mood strikes---I still get paid.
And I'd certainly have absolutely no problem saying everything to you
face-to-face that I've stated herein. You're a far cry from a
challenging opponent. I'm confident that your responses to a
real-life debate would be little more than frustrated stuttering,
clenching your little fists and watching you stamp your feet and cry.
If you'd like, I'd be more than happy to discuss this over the phone,
you little worm. You don't strike me as a particularly interesting
conversationalist, though. I sense that any talk with you would
rapidly deteriorate into a predictable, third-grade level name-calling
contest as opposed to an intelligent exchange of concepts. Too many
ideas probably whisk over your head without ever touching down. I'm
starting to wonder if your brain is even connected to your spinal
cord.
And, by the way, your initial childish <yawn> comment was posted as a
rather inappropriate, asinine response to a discussion between Alric
and myself, one which with a great deal of relevence to this
newsgroup. Most people (at least the more interesting ones) don't
find it quite as intimidating as you do to trace influences and to
explore satellite subjects in lieu of rigidly and boringly adhering to
the rules. And most of us have the capability to think about more
than one subject at a time....... present company excluded, of course.
It's unfortunate that some people (namely, you) demonstrate little
more than a kiss-ass, meek, acquiescent, follow-the-rules personality,
afraid to go out on a limb and create an original thought. Mommy
taught you well, didn't she?
But, since you obviously feel safer in a mundane, non-threatening
environment, more power to you, kid. Personally, I'd be bored out of
my skull.
Now.......don't respond, OK?.......:)) Let's just see how long the
little guy can hold his breath.
Jacknife garr...@ix.netcom.com
WAIT4SUN
Listen bud, I'm 32 years old. Have a BA in Communications and i am working on
my masters. I graduated from a very expensive, private college in NJ. I own
my own video productions company in which I am the leading vendor for Lucent
Technologies and AT&T. I also won a gold medal for the United States in the
1993 Men's Major Modified Fast Pitch World Series. I am also a member of the
Softball Hall of Fame in Oklahoma. The Asbury Park Press in NJ is doing an
article on me about my web page. Check it out:
Http://www.members.aol.com/wait4sun/famousgraves.html.
Not bad for someone with the pea brain of a 3rd grader. Your resume??..sitting
at home in your underwear jerking off in front of the computer. Now, i'm
getting back to talking about the Doors.
Michael Simons.
WAIT4SUN
>Http://www.members.aol.com/wait4sun/famousgraves.html.
Regarding my web page, it's not about softball. It's about my travels over the
past 2 years. I've been to Spain, Gibralter, Africa, England, Paris, Bahamas,
Puerto Rico and Canada working on a photo essay...
Brian and Mary Clevnger
WAIT4SUN <wait...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19980210025...@ladder03.news.aol.com>...
"Listen bud, I'm 32 years old. Have a BA in Communications .... Michael
Simons."
You're all bad and such, but you ego is the size of my nut sack. If you
were any more full of yourself...
Jacknife
I knew it. Of course you'd respond....... your buttons are so easy to
push. Wind him up, watch him march around in little circles.
So daddy's allowed you to become a professional student. My god,
you're STILL in college at age 32? Somehow this brings to mind Mr.
Blutoski (John Belushi) from "Animal House." Hardly the description
of success.
And it's certainly impressive that a third-rate website has mentioned
you and your "production company" (one of a million or so), especially
a website that isn't even prolific or professional enough to set up
it's own domain name. Impressively credible, indeed.
Sans help from anyone (my daddy has no money), I took $130 and an old
beat-up Ford LTD and over a period of 10 years built it into an
electric sign manufacturing corporation with 40 employees, a 20,000
square foot plant, a fleet of trucks and hundreds of thousands of
dollars worth of production equipment, grossing several million
dollars a year. I became semi-retired at 37, hence the complete
freedom of tailoring my own time as I'd mentioned earlier.
It's odd that you'd zero in on my metaphorical, tongue-in-cheek,
overused reference to "sitting around in my underwear" instead of
grasping the essence of the point I was making (whisking over your
head in your typical witless fashion). Do you often become this
aroused over other men in their underwear? You're an unusually
peculiar form of life.
So, congratulations on your career in college and your little, umm,
"production company," which for obvious reasons remains descriptively
vague.
Yeah, college at 32 sports all the earmarks of a guy who's truly taken
life by the balls! hehe I know the type. Had a lot of them
working for me. Onne of those "professional student" types was a guy
with a Phd. who ended up in a $7.00 per hour job on my payroll.
You either have the ability to take control of a chunk of the world,
or you don't. If you have it, you do it.
If you don't, you go to college.
What're you going to be when you grow up?
Michael Simons.
Jacknife garr...@ix.netcom.com
Jacknife
On 10 Feb 98 03:40:27 GMT, "Brian and Mary Clevnger"
<mary...@inil.com> wrote:
Agreed. I'd be sick of reading this loser's posts by now if he wasn't
such a master at making himself look more idiotic every time he opens
his mouth.
Jacknife garr...@ix.netcom.com
Jacknife
Oh yeah, I forgot to mention how terribly impressed I am with a guy
who claims to have a BA in Communications........... who's chosen to
use AOL as his ISP. HA!
Golly gee, where do I line up to buy stock in YOUR company? :))
>Http://www.members.aol.com/wait4sun/famousgraves.html.
Jacknife garr...@ix.netcom.com
Jarno Maasbommel
Jacknife heeft geschreven in bericht
<34e03f49...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>...
>Oh yeah, I forgot to mention how terribly impressed I am with a guy
>who claims to have a BA in Communications........... who's chosen to
>use AOL as his ISP. HA!
>
>Golly gee, where do I line up to buy stock in YOUR company? :))
Guys, can't you take this to email or something? I wanna read about the
Doors, not this crap!
Jarno
WAIT4SUN
>
>Guys, can't you take this to email or something? I wanna read about the
>Doors, not this crap!
>
>Jarno
>
>
Thanks Jarno, that's all I've been trying to say.
Michael
WAIT4SUN
You know..i really wasn't going to respond to your insensitive remark about my
"daddy" helping me with my education because that comment really hurt my
feelings. But i feel i should comment.. You are right, he did help me with
my education. His life insurance helped me pay for it. I'm not joking, lying
or saying this to gain any sympathy. Both of my parents died in a car
accident 4 days after my high school graduation. My college career was not
easy and maybe that's why i'm so proud of it. I'm sorry if my "ego" offended
anyone. Take care.
l.>So daddy's allowed you to become a professional student.
>From: garr...@ix.netcom.com (Jacknife)
Alric Knebel
Sorry, pal. You shot at the wrong guy. I didn't write this.
>wait...@aol.com (WAIT4SUN) wrote:
>> You don't have to bother
>>yourself with any of those messy, tiring activities like.....thinking.
>>
>>
>I am so blessed to be honored by your extreme intellect. How can you judge me
>by a <yawn>??? You have too much time on your hands if all you can do is
>berate someone in a newsgroup. Get a life and be a man. I could guarantee
>that you would never talk like this to someone face to face. It's so easy to
>be a tough guy on here Alric. Grow the fuck up. You are a cock sucking loser
>and I would say that to your face. Now listen to this, I am no longer
>responding to your immature little posts. This is the first and only time I'm
>going to act as immaturely as you. You insult my intelligence when you don't
>know the first thing about me. All I wanted from this doors newsgroup was to
>talk about.....The Doors!!.. what a fucking concept!! Be a man for once and
>shut the fuck up.
_____________________________________________
Alric Knebel
al...@datasync.com
_____________________________________________
Krammerhead
Jacknife wrote in message <34e03740...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>...
Why don't both of you guys just email how great you are to each other
instead of wasting everybody elses time?
Krammerhead
Jacknife
I'm not a complete clod. If it's really true that your parents were
killed, I offer my sympathies. But I had absolutely no way of
knowing. We all have closetfuls of tragedies, and if everyone
attempted to avoid every possibility, we'd spend our lives in silence.
But, again, if you're serious, I'm very sorry. Losing your parents at
such a young age isn't supposed to happen. I can't really think of
anything worse.
Maybe we should all try to be more tolerant. You just pissed me off
with your <yawn> post, insinuating that all the work I'd put into that
"essay" (for lack of a better word) was a waste of time. Maybe I
reacted a bit too quickly and menacingly. I'm in the middle of a very
painful divorce (after an 18-year marriage), and it doesn't take much
to push me over the edge. That's just the tip of the iceberg----my
life has been very hard too. But I won't bore ya with the depressing
details.
So, I'm sorry about the "daddy" remark, but it wasn't insensitive----
I would have had to known about your background prior to making the
remark....... in which case, had I known, and had I still made that
remark, it wouldn't have been "insensitive." It would have been
inanely sociopathic.
Take it easy. Let's call this stupid war to a halt. I'm sure if we
both make an effort we can discover some sort of common ground.... and
maybe even develop a degree of respect for each other sometime before
the turn of the century? :)
On 10 Feb 1998 18:34:07 GMT, wait...@aol.com (WAIT4SUN) wrote:
You know..i really wasn't going to respond to your insensitive remark
about my
"daddy" helping me with my education because that comment really hurt
my
feelings. But i feel i should comment.. You are right, he did help
me with
my education. His life insurance helped me pay for it. I'm not
joking, lying
or saying this to gain any sympathy. Both of my parents died in a
car
accident 4 days after my high school graduation. My college career
was not
easy and maybe that's why i'm so proud of it. I'm sorry if my "ego"
offended
anyone. Take care.
l.>So daddy's allowed you to become a professional student.
>From: garr...@ix.netcom.com (Jacknife)
Jacknife garr...@ix.netcom.com
Jacknife
Jacknife
Yeah, you're right. I'm tired of talking about this anyway. I'm
done. Sorry to have wasted so much room. I'm ready to talk about Mr.
Morrison & the crew again.
On Wed, 11 Feb 1998 06:39:46 GMT, garr...@ix.netcom.com (Jacknife)
wrote:
Jacknife garr...@ix.netcom.com
Jacknife garr...@ix.netcom.com