Two Against Everything Natural
ti bon ange
>OK, now, can we get on to "Two Against Nature"? Or has that one
>already been decoded (and I missed it)?
I'm game (I heard that, Miz Ducky... I am NOT gamey!).
Like the best Steely Dan songs, this one doesn't seem to be
about what it seems to be about. It's confusing and arcane, but
I have a number of theories about what it means... or what it
COULD mean.
Donald and Walter, in interviews, have really downplayed the
meaning of it, suggesting that it's a song that's inspired by
their own sense of getting older, and the challenges of life
that come with that.
It may be about that, in one discrete interpretation. But I
think it's more a general lament about society, specifically
American society, specifically violence, specifically, violence
among and toward children.
When I listen to this song, I think of Dylan Kliebold and Eric
Harris. I see this image--a la Leonardo di Caprio in Basketball
Diaries--of these two boys in big black dusters, backlit,
weapons taped to their legs and held in both fists, coming down
the innocent high school hallway, murder in their hearts. These
boys were bent on annihilation, as are so many children these
days. School shootings are an epidemic in America. A few years
ago, it was wild men with assault weapons shooting up
playgrounds left and right. Today, it's first-graders bringing
guns to school because they're mad at a classmate.
The song is full of voodoo references, which I think are
colorful, but kind of unfair. Voodoo is a genuine religion--
somewhat barbaric with its little chicken sacrifices and such,
but not evil. Voodoo-inspired cults where people practice
curses, spells, 'a doll with a pin' (FZ) and evil in general are
considered 'left-hand voodoo' by the faithful.
Still, the cartoonish voodoo images in the song do set the
scene. Something is very wrong in 18A, and it's not a chicken
that gets sacrificed.
After the initial creepy set-up, here's the fear and loathing:
>All the nice people those goodly souls
>Quaking in their respective hidey-holes
>Everyone's wasted in this gruesome dream
>Not a one of them left to hear you scream
The 'hidey-holes' may represent denial. That's what goodly
people do when they can't face what's happening--they bury their
heads in the sand. I see the 'gruesome dream' as a portent of
the things to come, the annihilation of... we'll see.
Next, the bad guys are announced, the boys in the dusters, the
men with the guns:
>Two against nature don't you know
>Who's gonna grok the shape of things to go
>Two against nature make them groan
>Who's gonna break the shape of things unknown
More voodoo references for color:
>Madame Erzulie she come last night
>Bang you silly but leave a nasty bite
>There on your nightstand much worse than that
>Panatela and old black derby hat
These beings and symbols are all explained in any good voodoo
encyclopedia. I'll let you do your own research on that and form
your own relevant theories.
This verse, I'm not sure of:
>Call your doctor - call your shrink
>Western science she strictly rinkydink
>They all masissi but we hang tough
>Apsatively gonna help you beat that stuff
They seem to be saying there's no medicine on earth that can
help make the nightmares go away. Maybe they mean there's not
enough love. Maybe they're suggesting this would be a good time
to go over to the dark side.
And then the bad boys return, stronger, in the second chorus:
>Two against nature tan and lean
>Puttin' big heat on skanky things unseen
>Two against nature slinging dread
>These boys wanna bang the skulls of things undead
So they're tan and lean--wait a minute... are these the good
guys? Who's slinging dread here? Is this Our Heroes, Don and
Walt, come to save us from ourselves? In this sense, is 'nature'
now a metaphor for the unnatural sickness that has overtaken our
society?
Interestingly, they write:
>T-Bone Angie she champion liar
>Sew the mouth shut with rusty chicken wire
>Brother Lou Garue and the Jerry Garry
>Sprinkling chicken water gonna hush all three
Lotta stuff going on here. Ti bon ange, "good little angel,"
becomes a champion liar. She is, in fact, the half of the soul
that is conscious in dreams, and travels astrally. She protects
the mind and body from evil spirits. She's lying? Does that mean
the narrator is denying his own self, abandoning his soul? He
sure doesn't want to hear what she has to say.
The other names are also plays on voodoo words (not at my
immediate disposal here). Sprinkling chicken water is a
variation on a voodoo ritual (where blood and feathers are
sprinkled, in my recollection), but it's meant to please the
loa, or spirits, not to shut people up.
At best this is left-hand voodoo. I think lougarue (sp) is a
Cajun voodoo invention, and not a very nice one.
>Beautiful housewife in deep distress
>'Specially you deserve our very best
>Two against nature they got that stuff
>Good things happening when you see about us
What, pray tell, are they planning to deliver to the beautiful
housewife? This entire verse could be seen as validly as a
veiled threat as it could a promise to rescue. Feels very
blackmailish to me.
And the bad boys appear once again:
>Two against nature love this gig
>Pull up the weeds before they're too damn big
>Two against nature stand alone
>Who's gonna chase the shape of things unknown
>Two against nature don't you know
>Who's gonna drop the boom on things to go
>Two against nature make them groan
>Gonna go bang-zoom to the moon on things unknown
This chorus is entirely aggressive. Pulling up the weeds before
they're too damn big? Is that a metaphor for killing children?
If not, then what is a weed in 2vN lore? These two are going to
drop the boom, go bang-zoom to the moon... they are armed and
dangerous.
Then, the most arcane lyric section of all:
>Scrape the wallboards the whole damn batch
>Catch the maggoty eggs before they hatch
Annihilation. Maggoty eggs: something very young, infancy.
>Pepper and ratbone make damn sure
>Shake the rubbish out on the patio floor
Poison. Mass destruction.
>Soak the timber with special spray
>Nuke the itty bitty ones right where they lay
Abortion. Infanticide (I'm pro-choice, so don't flame me).
>Whip the bastards while they still green
>Take the firemop - sweep it kissing clean
"While they still green..." a slang term for newbies, or by
extrapolation in my theory, children. Firemop--there's some sci-
fi imagery here. But the goal remains the same: annihilation.
Let me say, in case I'm not being clear, that if my
interpretations of this song are anywhere near what Don and Walt
intended me to understand, I am NOT saying that they advocate
violence in the tune.
I believe the song is about violence--as I said, a lament--but
that it is a heavily-cloaked protest song AGAINST the state of
violence that exists de rigeur in American society, and
especially that violence which seems to be singling out children.
I think Walter and Donald are incredibly sensitive individuals
who are grieving, along with a lot of us, over the horrors of
existence. They are two against nature--what nature has become--
and perhaps writing a song like this helps them to remain sane:
to retain their goodly souls. I do not think they are the two in
Two Against Nature. But I could be entirely wrong.
I remember lying in my bunk in a hostel in NYC, 26 January 2000,
with my Walkman on my head, listening to a tape of this album
while I fell asleep. I didn't know the lyrics, although I'd
tried and failed to transcribe them. But suddenly I heard, clear
as a bell, "nuke the itty-bitty ones right where they lay," and
the entire song became clear to me. Images of violence--
including the image I began with, of the Columbine murderers--
came involuntarily into my head, and goosebumps were all over my
body.
I think, even though I hate bests and worsts, that this is the
best song on the album.
As I said, I'm game, although I'm certainly willing to learn
that I'm wrong. If anyone else deciphers this song differently,
I hope you'll post it here. And I hope you'll convince me
otherwise.
Could be a love song, now that I think about it.
love and kisses
diane <-- still shakin'
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Chris R
ti bon ange <membabe...@aol.com.invalid> wrote:
> In another thread, Tim wondered:
>
> >OK, now, can we get on to "Two Against Nature"? Or has that one
> >already been decoded (and I missed it)?
>
>
> Donald and Walter, in interviews, have really downplayed the
> meaning of it, suggesting that it's a song that's inspired by
> their own sense of getting older, and the challenges of life
> that come with that.
>
> It may be about that, in one discrete interpretation. But I
> think it's more a general lament about society, specifically
> American society, specifically violence, specifically, violence
> among and toward children.
>
> I believe the song is about violence--as I said, a lament--but
> that it is a heavily-cloaked protest song AGAINST the state of
> violence that exists de rigeur in American society, and
> especially that violence which seems to be singling out children.
>
> I think Walter and Donald are incredibly sensitive individuals
> who are grieving, along with a lot of us, over the horrors of
> existence. They are two against nature--what nature has become--
> and perhaps writing a song like this helps them to remain sane:
> to retain their goodly souls. I do not think they are the two in
> Two Against Nature. But I could be entirely wrong.
Diane,you give us all more stuff to think about (as usual).
I am still thinking about the song and what you have said so I don't
feel confident enough to give a detailed response.But here are a few
little impressions I have gained.
Yes,I think it is about violence and the young.The mental violence
imposed on many of them by a cynical society and their (naturally ? )
physically violent reaction to it.
Next you have the inability of the 'older' generation to understand why
this is happening and their massive inability to do anything about it.
This gang power stuff;real power but no sense of responsibility to the
uninitiated.
Are the 2VN cops ? Cynically knowing that the courts cannot or will not
deal with this breakdown.Righteous vigilantes doing their best to deal
with the problem on a practical level.
Or is it all just about a couple trying to clear up the mess in their
Carribean holiday home ?
I would like to think the latter but somehow,Diane,I think you are
right.
Chris R
--
'Moderation in all things including moderation'
Oscar Wilde
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
StratCat14
with exterminators facing the fact that many pests are building up immunities
to many of the chemicals favored in that profession... kind of gave me the
mental image of John Goodman in 'Arachnophobia.'
BHeneg8560
nature, because they themselves are part of the nature they're against. The
title of the album is slightly nonsensical for that reason. Unless the
self-awareness that they have as rational beings is of divine (and therefore
supernatural) origin, it's of natural origin. Nature is also full of creatures
fighting against other creatures. How are the two against nature generically
(not necessarily genetically) different?
best wishes
Ben Heneghan
ti bon ange
A: A fish!
love and kisses
diane
Kathryn Ballard
"Who's gonna grok the shape of things unknown?"
If we have any sci-fi fans in here, you'll know that "grok" is a made-
up "Martian" word from Robert Heinlein's classic book, "Stranger in a
Strange Land", usually expressed when the main character, Michael
Valentine Smith, attempted the "grok the fullness" of something - i.e.
the underlying meaning being to understand, comprehend, experience, and
digest a concept or object as fully as possible. Therefore, the usage
of "to grok" in the book could take on many forms, depending on the
concept laid before him.
The book featured frightened people in it with violent intentions
toward the peaceful Martian. How does that fit with the song, if at
all? Was it just a cool phrase at the time, or does it provide still
more insight worth investigating (most likely the latter, knowing Don
and Walt!)? Does it maybe suggest that others impede us from "grokking
the fullness" or "shape" of things in life because they are afraid to
know the answer? [Philosophy OFF!]
In any event, these thoughts might provide a clue to the meaning behind
the song. I don't have the answers, though, but it's a good topic so
far.
Yours,
Kathryn Ballard
In article <0fc85a9c...@usw-ex0105-038.remarq.com>,
ti bon ange <membabe...@aol.com.invalid> wrote:
Kathryn Ballard
grok the shape of things to go ..." I mixed it with the last line of
that chorus.
Carry on.
Yours,
Kathryn Ballard
In article <8cg42s$ia1$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
Mam'zelle Canard
news:2aa70100...@usw-ex0101-008.remarq.com...
> In another thread, Tim wondered:
>
> >OK, now, can we get on to "Two Against Nature"? Or has that one
> >already been decoded (and I missed it)?
>
> I'm game (I heard that, Miz Ducky... I am NOT gamey!).
Hey, that was Donald who said that, not moi! :-)
Diane and I have a gentlewomanly difference of opinion on how to interpret
this song. I think I posted my take on it some centuries back, but I'll
rehash it for those who (like our friend Tim here) may have missed it:
I tend to read the lyrics fairly straightforwardly as being about two
hoodoos (practitioners of New Orleans style voudoun a la Dr. John) who have
gone enterpreneurial and opened a little specialty business: that of
banishing the ghosties and ghoulies and things that go bump in the night
from the households of well-heeled urbanites. These two (the "Two Against
Nature" who boast of their own prowess in each of the refrains) are not
flim-flam fakers. They are definitely the genuine article--they know all
about the loas (Voudoun deities) such as Madame Erzulie (goddess of love)
and Baron Samedi (personification of the graveyard, a dandy whose
traditional symbols include a cigar and a black hat--more often a top hat,
but whatever). The Two, however, are not so pure as to avoid gloating a
little about how much they "love this gig"--especially the beautiful
housewives they get to rescue--and how they're going to achieve fame and
fortune by it ("go bang zoom to the moon on things unknown.")
So in the first couple of verses the Two outline all the various symptoms of
a "hanting" they see going on at their client's home--poltergeist phenomena
(that flying wicker chair); residents having dreadful nightmares;
visitations by those naughty loa, and other random characters (that errant
"ti bon ange," apparently a soul separated from its rightful owner, loup
garou--the werewolf/wendigo of the bayous, and other ghoulies I think
Don&Walt actually made up but they sound really kewl, don't they?); etc.
etc. Shrinks and doctors of course are useless. Who you gonna call?
Hant-Busters!
And then in that final verse, our hoodoos get busy and start carpet-bombing
the beautiful housewife's residence with all the ritual exorcism juju in
their impressively large mojo-bag. That it comes off sounding like they're
doing spiritual bug-extermination just adds to the irony, IMO.
Anyhoo, as I usually say, that's my US$0.02. Smoke 'em if you got 'em.
--
Mam'zelle Canard
http://www.drizzle.com/~mizducky
"Then the room turns bright/And fills up with light ..."
Raoul Duke
Mam'zelle Canard wrote:
> "ti Diane and I have a gentlewomanly difference of opinion on how to interpret
>
> this song.
> <snip>
> Anyhoo, as I usually say, that's my US$0.02. Smoke 'em if you got 'em.
>
> --
"Who ya' gonna call?"
This interpretation makes more sense to me ...(speaking as a man of a 'certain
age' [right between Walt and Don]).
I know the phenomenon of reading complex or profound or bizarre ideas into
lyrics only to later find that I had projected these ideas. This is , by the
way, perfectly okay. It's art dude...
.
You will all be relieved to know that you don't need to bring any 'bluebooks' or
#2 pencils to any of the recently announced shows.
Jere
ronald
>
> As I said, I'm game, although I'm certainly willing to learn
> that I'm wrong. If anyone else deciphers this song differently,
> I hope you'll post it here. And I hope you'll convince me
> otherwise.
>
i just happen to not care for this song. in fact, it's probably the
one that i least like on the album. i don't doubt that there is a lot
of nuances to the lyrics but it's not a theme that grabs me so i'm not
motivated to expend effort thinking about it. the song just doesn't
connect with anything in my life, and the songs that i tend to like
most by steely dan have that characteristic. i suppose one of the
reasons that i became such a big steely dan fan (or maybe i should
say "long time steely dan fan" because i'm not such a big fan compared
to many on this newsgroup) was because i was a teenager when most of
their stuff came out, and i could listen to some of the songs and feel
as though they understood how i felt, and what i was going through.
the song "two against nature" says nothing to me.
--
__ ______ __ / __/ |
_/ (_(_) / (_(_/_/_(_/ .
be optimistic! you can win,
as long as you keep, your head to the sky
-the sounds of blackness
Mam'zelle Canard
> Okay, Chris, Stratcat, Ben, Kathryn, Duckydoodle, Raoul, now
> we're COOKIN'!
"Duckydoodle"??!?!?!? <shudder>
> Chris R wrote:
> >Or is it all just about a couple trying to clear up the mess in
> >their Carribean holiday home ?
>
> Yeah, last time we threw down at the Steely Dan Hall of Fame and
> Carribean Timeshare, you shoulda seen the mess we made. No one
> wants to be the janitor, so we appealed to Don and Walt to come
> on in with their firemops.
Yeah, and lemme tell ya, I would have felt safer if we'd had called in Bill
Murray and the Ghostbusters. Walter especially is a dangerous man into whose
hands to put a fire-anything. And then he gets Donald going, and the both of
them go totally bang-zoom ...
> Oh my god! Do you realize this means they wrote the title track
> about our little slice o' heaven in the Carribean! Ain't we
> special?
Of course we are! Er ... what's this panatella doing in the bar's ashtray?
/Mam'zelle Daphne Canard
(still) self-appointed bartendress and purveyor of relaxicants to the
SDHOF/TS--and soon to take her bartendressness on tour to THE GORGE!!!
Wah-HOOO!!!
Robert Bryant
>i just happen to not care for this song. in fact, it's probably the
>one that i least like on the album. i don't doubt that there is a lot
>of nuances to the lyrics but it's not a theme that grabs me so i'm not
>motivated to expend effort thinking about it. the song just doesn't
>connect with anything in my life, and the songs that i tend to like
>most by steely dan have that characteristic. i suppose one of the
>reasons that i became such a big steely dan fan (or maybe i should
>say "long time steely dan fan" because i'm not such a big fan compared
>to many on this newsgroup) was because i was a teenager when most of
>their stuff came out, and i could listen to some of the songs and feel
>as though they understood how i felt, and what i was going through.
>
>the song "two against nature" says nothing to me.
It is the cut I enjoy least as well. Musically, it is a bit of a departure
from the style I have come to love about SD. I'm not opposed to their
trying new things and it isn't as though hate it, I love the album. I
picture the hordes of mainstream(i.e. typically lame) music critics who upon
hearing the song 2vN deciding that the album isn't up to the par set by the
body of their work.
Robert Bryant
Tim and Trish McDonald
ALL have alot to offer. But I have always found (at least!) ONE song from
each of their albums that stetched their sound musically, kicked butt and
ended up defining the album---er CD. Two Against Nature is it for me!
Tim
Robert Bryant <rbr...@world.std.com> wrote in message
news:FsMs2...@world.std.com...
Tim and Trish McDonald
I can't really offer anything other than an attempt to fill in a few holes
or look at a few lines from a different angle. But here goes:
The last two verses somehow convince me that there is more going on here
than a couple Voodoo Ghost busters out to make a buck. The imagery is just
altogether too violent. Also, look at the choice of words throughout:
"Everyone's wasted ", "make them groan", "Bang you silly" ," big heat"
,"slinging", "bang the skulls", "drop the boom", "go bang-zoom" . Sounds
like guns and violence to me.
So assuming the TAN are "Dylan and Eric redux" what else fits? How about
"Who's gonna break the shape of things unknown": to a sociopath youth people
are "things"- so breaking the shape of things unknown would be killing
strangers. And later "Banging skulls of things undead". Again: killing
others.
Far as the voodoo references go I only know from a quick website search
(look at me the instant expert!) but "ti bon ange" was described on one
level to be your morality or moral guidance; So if you are a sociopath and
don't like what your conscience may be trying to tell you: call it a liar
and shut it up: some sewing needles and thread do the job nicely!
And finally- and perhaps way out there: consider that all the SD album
covers have a tie in to the title song-
Two against nature-- The literal connection: The cover features shadows
(of Walt and Don?) cast against--you guessed it a NATURE scene.
But what are they doing? On first take the figure on the left reminded me of
"The Scream" by Edvard Munch. Reference the "no one left to hear you scream
line from TAN....." On second take the fellow on the left may be holding
his hands up to his ears---while the guy on the right Screams...... Now if
you have followed this rant so far consider that the two of them are
literally sticking their heads in the sand-quite like the folks in the hidey
holes--that these are shadows similar to those left by victims of nuclear
blasts ("nuke the itty bitty ones".. or maybe, "that shape is my shade there
where I used to stand"...) and finally look at what grows beyond the
shadows: WEEDs: DAMN Big ones too! Guess nobody has pulled them up YET!....
Soooo putting this chaotic melange together the feelings that come through
to me are Frustration and even horror with the state of things (the Scream)
but not being person enough to do anything about it (reduced to a shadow of
your former self ---aging?), Nonetheless there is ultimately hope (for the
present!) as the nearby weeds (kids-the future) continue to grow.
OK, so shoot me. It' s a long post- it rambles, creaks and might make you
groan; but if it elicits any other enlightening comments I will consider it
worthwhile.
Guess I can put away my number 2 pencil for a while......
Tim
ti bon ange <membabe...@aol.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:087d04f4...@usw-ex0101-007.remarq.com...
> Okay, Chris, Stratcat, Ben, Kathryn, Duckydoodle, Raoul, now
> we're COOKIN'!
>
> See, this song has to be about SOMETHING. It's a rare Steely Dan
> song that's about nothing, although I do maintain that passages
> of Steely Dan songs are written using some kind of modified cut-
> up method for which Brion Gysin and William S. Burroughs were
> renowned.
>
> So several brave souls have now laid it on the line. What do
> other people hear in these lyrics? Maybe if 20 more people share
> their thoughts, we'll find some cohesive whole.
>
> Chris R wrote:
>
> >Next you have the inability of the 'older' generation to
> >understand why this is happening and their massive inability to
> >do anything about it.
>
> >This gang power stuff; real power but no sense of
> >responsibility to the uninitiated.
>
> >Are the 2VN cops ? Cynically knowing that the courts cannot or
> >will not deal with this breakdown. Righteous vigilantes doing
> >their best to deal with the problem on a practical level.
>
> Chris, these are all excellent points. I may write up my
> theories and coopt your additions (giving you the credit you
> deserve, of course), and put them on my web page (can you hear
> me, Dr Wu? Gotta have software, gotta have it now....)
>
> I hadn't thought explicitly of the gang angle, but it's a good
> one. Hadn't thought at all of 2vN as vigilantes, but again, the
> image works really well.
>
> >Or is it all just about a couple trying to clear up the mess in
> >their Carribean holiday home ?
>
> Yeah, last time we threw down at the Steely Dan Hall of Fame and
> Carribean Timeshare, you shoulda seen the mess we made. No one
> wants to be the janitor, so we appealed to Don and Walt to come
> on in with their firemops.
>
> Oh my god! Do you realize this means they wrote the title track
> about our little slice o' heaven in the Carribean! Ain't we
> special?
>
> love and kisses
> diane <-- shook the rubbish out on the patio floor