SD and homosexuality
Kyle
Buzz" and "Gaucho" are two of the more overt. I've always thought that
"Rikki Don't Lose that Number" was also about homosexuality. ("You tell
yourself you're not my kind, but you don't even know your mind.") Have
Fagen and Becker ever addressed this? Are either of them gay? Not that
there's anything wrong with that.
Kyle
David de Graaf
wrote:
Both of them are married to women. Not that there is anything wrong
with that.
David
ps Barrytown always struck my gaydar. I always thought the line was 'it
was there when you came out', which turns out to be 'it was there where
you came out'.
pps It is amazing how often we assume identity between writers and
their first voice personages. If a man writes a first person story as a
woman, does that make him a her?
Kyle
> their first voice personages. If a man writes a first person story as a
> woman, does that make him a her?
Once or twice, perhaps, no. But SD's material seems so rife with references
that it has made me wonder. I knew DF was married, but I didn't know about
WB. Certainly one would expect some references to homosexuality from
songwriters so keen on social commentary. Just seemed like there were an
awful lot in SD's material.
Kyle
Jon Stone
which their material is "rife", as you put it. Can you substantiate the
..."awful lot..." in your statement below?
Mike Smith
news:3981c...@news1.prserv.net...
> There are a lot of references to homosexuality in SD songs. "Through with
> Buzz" and "Gaucho" are two of the more overt. I've always thought that
> "Rikki Don't Lose that Number" was also about homosexuality. ("You tell
> yourself you're not my kind, but you don't even know your mind.") Have
Huh? IIRC "Rikki Don't Lose That Number" is about a compulsive gambler and
his bookie.
--
Mike Smith
One man's theology is another man's belly laugh.
-- R. A. Heinlein
Mal
interpretations. Read what you want into them. I've never
thought that DF and WB are particularly into 'opening their
hearts' and why should they?
mal
-----------------------------------------------------------
Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.
Up to 100 minutes free!
http://www.keen.com
Lotion Charlie
Paul Shaffer. The song is about an older man trying to pick up a
young, probably innocent, woman according to a Fagen interview
(does this story line sound familiar??). Perhaps he was trying
to seduce her with the fine Colombian and Cuervo Gold or some
such (...thought our little wild time had just begun"). The real
Rikki did not partake in recreational pharamaceuticals or so she
told me. I met Rikki briefly a number of years ago - a really
nice lady. Only by chance did the subject of Steely Dan come up
and I mentioned that they were my favorite band. She told me:
"You're not going to believe this!"
Well, you're not going to believe this. Before the CBAT,
evidently Walter, for a short period of time, was unsure of his
gender preference (not that there's anything wrong with that).
Rikki was a big fan of Donald's mom. Unfortunately, we did not
have the opportunity to talk much further afterwards, as she
became gravely ill. I lost track of her and wixh her the best
wherever she is.
tones
> "Kyle" <jhk...@attglobal.net> wrote in message
> news:3981c...@news1.prserv.net...
> > There are a lot of references to homosexuality in SD songs. "Through with
> > Buzz" and "Gaucho" are two of the more overt. I've always thought that
> > "Rikki Don't Lose that Number" was also about homosexuality. ("You tell
> > yourself you're not my kind, but you don't even know your mind.") Have
>
> Huh? IIRC "Rikki Don't Lose That Number" is about a compulsive gambler and
> his bookie.
>
...and I always thought "Buzz" was a substance. "He takes all my money..."
Metaphorically yours,
tones
tim r
"Kyle" <jhk...@attglobal.net> wrote in message
news:3981c...@news1.prserv.net...
> There are a lot of references to homosexuality in SD songs. "Through with
> Buzz" and "Gaucho" are two of the more overt. I've always thought that
> "Rikki Don't Lose that Number" was also about homosexuality. ("You tell
> yourself you're not my kind, but you don't even know your mind.") Have
> there's anything wrong with that.
>
> Kyle
tim r trolled out......
I ain't gay, but a good mate once said to me.
'' if it's your thing , do it . If they don't like it, fuck 'em''
still true, today.
(paedophiles exepted, I can't cope with that)
tim r
>
>
Chris Lumb
novelist) to take on other personae for a song or novel. Should we assume
from Kamakiriad that Donald is actually a space traveller who cruises the
galaxies looking, perhaps, for Elvis? Should we conclude from Kafka's
Metamorphosis that at some stage in his life he had been a dung beetle?
Should we assume from Cousin Dupree that Donald fancies his cousin?
I remember John Lennon venting his spleen in an interview over the
apparently drug-related lyrics of Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds. Young
Julian had returned from pre-school with one of those pastel paint things on
butchers' paper that 4 or 5 year olds do. "Who's that?" asked Lennon Snr
pointing at what appeared to be a woman's face. "That's Lucy". "What are
those speckly things?". "They're diamonds". "Why so much blue?". "That's
the sky".
The rest is history.
Chris Lumb
Goes to show how misapprehensions can grow!
>
>Huh? IIRC "Rikki Don't Lose That Number" is about a compulsive gambler and
>his bookie.
>
fretmeister
Listen to the song, Buzz is a good friend that betrayed him.
And no homosexuality because fagen sings somewhere, 'i remeber
when he stole my girl!'.
so sorry Kyle Donald or Walter will never be your boyfriend LOL.
Kyle
the line "Maybe he's a fairy" imply homosexuality -- not necessarily a
relationship between the lyricist and Buzz.
I didn't mean to offend anyone with this thread. I'm just curious about
many of SD's lyrics. Often they are open to many interpretations, and I'll
be the first to admit that I can misinterpret things sometimes. But, isn't
his a forum for such discussions?
Kyle
rumplestiltskin
wrote:
>There are a lot of references to homosexuality in SD songs. "Through with
>Buzz" and "Gaucho" are two of the more overt. I've always thought that
>"Rikki Don't Lose that Number" was also about homosexuality. ("You tell
>yourself you're not my kind, but you don't even know your mind.") Have
>Fagen and Becker ever addressed this? Are either of them gay? Not that
>there's anything wrong with that.
>
>Kyle
>
>
Yeah I agree... They are a bit on the flambe'. Heres proof:
1) Their song: "Any Major Dyke"
2) "Midnight Cruiser" ( I didn't see the movie "Cruising" but I heard
about the nastiness.
3) The album cover of "Pretzel Logic" The pretzel man is in fetish
wear.
4) The album called "Gaucho" - 'nuff said
5) Every song on Aja are bout the gayest I've ever heard.
6) On "Can't Buy A Thrill" album cover the bodybuilder dude is given
more space than the ho's.
7) "....The fine Columbian" aint about weed. It's a love letter to
Manual Noriega before he split to Panama.
8) "Chasing the Dragon" is about Bruce Lee.
9) That bullshit bout "Kid Charlamaigne" being modeled from Owsley
Stanley - If you listen closely it's really bout Spanky McFarlane.
10) "The Royal Scam"
joe_sovacool
He takes all my money
You know I'm through with Buzz
Yes I'm through with Buzz,
All right, oh yeah, uh huh
He's not very funny
You know I'm through with Buzz
Yes I'm through with Buzz,
All right, oh yeah, uh huh
I remember when he stole my girl
Drug her all around the world
You know I'm cool, yes I feel alright
'Cept when I'm in my room and it's late at night
Maybe he's a fairy
You know I'm through with Buzz
Yes I'm through with Buzz
All right, oh yeah, uh huh, all right
best,
joe
David Shepard
who had been working in the same studios as SD, and caught Beckers
interest.
David
David Shepard
relationship, didn't they?
Marc Ziegenhagen
Yep! And this one came up a while back. I, personally, always thought
and saw that the homosexual implications of the lyrics to "Gaucho" are
obviously about a homosexual group of 3 guys. Certainly in this forum
there's no need to quote the lyrics, we all know them. But/so, if you
look at the story line and the gender references, there's certainly not
one illusion to a female. Indeed, all gender specifications are to the
male side of the fence ("boy,", "he," "him," etc).
I wonder how many gay men are even into Steely Dan. I'm the only one that
I know of and, geez, it'd be great to date someone who shares a similar
interest.
Personal e-mails accepted in good taste. :>
MZ
--
Email: substitute "dude" for "nospam".
Miz Ducky
>I, personally, always thought
>and saw that the homosexual implications of the lyrics
to "Gaucho" are
>obviously about a homosexual group of 3 guys. Certainly in
this forum
>there's no need to quote the lyrics, we all know them. But/so,
if you
>look at the story line and the gender references, there's
certainly not
>one illusion to a female. Indeed, all gender specifications
are to the
>male side of the fence ("boy,", "he," "him," etc).
Been meaning to jump into this thread sooner or later. Yeah, I
think I remember this issue going 'round at least once before
since I've been here too. About the song "Gaucho" -- yeah, I too
think it's pretty conclusive. The protagonist is basically
throwing a shit-fit over the unfashionable-looking
trick/infatuee with whom his "special friend" has shown up at
protag's chi-chi nightclub. The song-plot reads just like a lost
essay from Fran Leibowitz's _Metropolitan Life_, maybe the
companion piece to her justly celebrated (and funny) "Notes on
Trick."
As to "Through with Buzz," I can read some unaddressed
homoerotic tension into this brief gem. Protagonist, pissed off
at his ex-friend Buzz, accuses him of all sorts of semi-paranoid
things. In this vein, he resorts to making (what is in his mind)
a derogatory remark about Buzz's sexual orientation, which
remark is obviously bogus given he also accused Buzz of stealing
his girlfriend; so the insult sounds more like the kind of
schoolyard taunting in which terms like "fairy" get thrown
around to the point of meaninglessness. BUT--note also that
protag misses Buzz in a most poignant way: late at night when
he's all alone. Makes me wonder what kind of unacknowledged
feelings he might have had going on for his ex-friend all along.
But beyond that, my personal gaydar picks up no vibes from any
other Dan song. And I've been paying attention. Anyhoo, that's
my two cents on this topic.
>I wonder how many gay men are even into Steely Dan. I'm the
only one that
>I know of and, geez, it'd be great to date someone who shares a
similar
>interest.
Hey, Mark, mucho respect for your coming out here! Me, I tend to
call myself a lesbian-identified bisexual (for lack of a more
concise label--somehow I just don't do too well at staying
inside the lines of the coloring book!) Anyway, I've often found
myself wondering how many other les/bi/gay Danfans might exist.
Not for the sake of any sort of pigeonholing or categorizing,
mind you, but y'know, a girl gets curious. I can report that at
least a few of my gay male friends in the greater Seattle area
are into the Dan, but that might be kind of a long haul for a
date. :-) But I'm sure there must be others out there ...
Mam'zelle Daphne Canard
http://www.drizzle.com/~mizducky
"kind of like the opposite of an aerial view ... "
Miz Ducky
)
ti bon ange
>As to "Through with Buzz," I can read some unaddressed
>homoerotic tension into this brief gem. Protagonist, pissed off
>at his ex-friend Buzz, accuses him of all sorts of semi-
>paranoid things. In this vein, he resorts to making (what is in
>his mind) a derogatory remark about Buzz's sexual orientation,
>which remark is obviously bogus <snip> BUT--note also that
>protag misses Buzz in a most poignant way: late at night when
>he's all alone.
To expand upon your idea, when I hear the narrator lobbing bombs
at Buzz, I hear envy, and lots of it. So his "maybe he’s a
fairy" comment even seems like erotic jealousy to me—Buzz always
wins, always comes out on top <insert your favorite gay "bottom"
pun here>, including his sexual adventurousness, leaving the
narrator in the dust.
Kyle inadvertently raised a good question with his post: how do
songwriters write? Any rudimentary study of B&F’s backgrounds
reveals that they are not dummies, but well-read and diverse,
curious to the point of probing and fascinated by everything
weird or once found on the margins of society. Especially in
literature, it’s not possible to partake in a steady diet of Boy
Meets Girl Etc. And it is in literature where homoeroticism is
most often balanced on the razor’s edge, where we are made to
wonder without always getting a straight answer.
My first exposure to homosexuality happened in Sunday School,
studying the friendship of David and Jonathan in I and II
Samuel. David wrote: "...greatly beloved were you to me, your
love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women" (II Sam
1:26). These two men seemed to fall in love at first
sight: "...when David had finished speaking to Saul, the soul of
Jonathan was bound to the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him
as his own soul" (I Sam 18:1). Jonathan’s response to David, his
soulmate, was immediate and dramatic: "Then Jonathan made a
covenant with David, because he loved him as his own soul. Then
Jonathan stripped himself of his robe that was upon him, and
gave it to David, and his sword, and even his armor and bow and
girdle. (I Sam 18:1-4)"
Sure, my Calvinist Sunday School teacher made a point of
downplaying Jonathan’s display of sudden nakedness, not to
mention all the other soap-operaish twists in the tale—including
Saul, Jonathan’s father being homophobic and blaming his son’s
condition on the kid’s mother, still a standard today. But I
knew better.
Homosexual love fares much better in literature than it does in
conservative society. Virginia Woolf's "Orlando" still makes it
to the top of intelligent people's booklists.
Male friendship and how far it can go is also a hotly debated
topic in the BeatLit world—the Beat Triumvirate being composed
of two homosexuals and one guy who claimed to be straight but
apparently loved the occasional blow job (Burroughs, Ginsberg
and Kerouac, for those of you who don't know). In this milieu
I’ve been frequently exposed to a certain philosophy: that most
men are sexually opportunistic and very easily turned to
homosexual acts, given the right circumstances. Here’s what
someone said about that almost 100 years ago:
>There is no friendship between men that has not an element of
>sexuality in it, however little accentuated it may be in the
>nature of the friendship, and however painful the idea of the
>sexual element would be. But it is enough to remember that
>there can be no friendship unless there has been some
>attraction to draw the men together. Much of the affection,
>protection, and nepotism between men is due to the presence of
>unsuspected sexual compatibility. [ Otto Weininger, Sex and
>Character (1903) ]
On and on it goes. The slaving meatwheel keeps turning round and
round, you go back, Jack, safe in heaven dead... and 30 years
after the beginning of Steely Dan, people are still trying to
reconcile obscure lyrical references. Walter addressed the
allure of this recently:
WB: I think there is something to be said for the idea that
something can retain some element of mystery. That is very
likable. And I think our new songs, generally speaking, are less
obscure than they might have been at other times earlier in our
career. [ PERFORMING SONGWRITER magazine, March/April 2000 ]
"… element of mystery." Yep. And this element makes for
fascinating and endless discussion about lyrics among the fans.
In RS837 [ Return of the Dark Brothers ] Donald gives us deep
background on himself and Walter as a songwriting team: "[At
Bard College] We clicked on every level as far as the kind of
stuff we liked," Fagen says, "the way we defined ourselves—the
way we were trying to, anyway. We listened to the same jazz
stations. We liked the same books. When he got there, I was
writing essentially comic songs that combined pretty much all
the elements that ended up being the elements, and Walter was
doing the same sort of things. He was a little bolder maybe than
I was in what he was willing to address in a song. Bolder in the
sense that maybe my attempts were more in a fantasy realm, and
he addressed things that maybe started from a more precise
observation, even though they might veer into fantasy. I tended
to be a little more insular, left to my own devices."
Sometimes Steely Dan lyrics just seem random to me—in the same
way a Burroughs cut-up seems random, while making perfect sense
and creating powerful images. In the PERFORMING SONGWRITER
interview, Our Heroes reveal part of the process they sometimes
use to arrive at what seems like a predetermined or actual
meaning:
It's a stunning level of accomplishment they've achieved by
being intricately involved with every aspect of the creative
process, as consciously careful with each word of every line as
they are with each beat of the kick drum and the snare. Though
the ongoing brilliance of their seamless and soulfully singable
songs might often seem to be the product of some kind of
spontaneous genius, it's actually the result of a lot of hard
work, as B&F explained. Take the flowing chorus of "West of
Hollywood," for example:
I'm way deep into nothing special
Riding the crest of a wave breaking
just west of Hollywood
It's a single sentence that evolved through a profusion of
lyrical permutations before the ideal form was discovered. "One
trick of writing is to use the mechanics of typing things over
and over again as a way of exercising and developing an idea,"
Becker said. To illustrate this technique, he shared some of the
variations he and Fagen generated for this line:
I'm way deep into nothing special...
..coming from a place of power just west of ...
..with a base of support located just west of ...
..in a matrix with its nexus just west of ...
..situated as I am in the crescent just west of ...
..having as my target the citizens just west of ...
..in a cluster franchise operation just west of ...
..and business is booming in the triangle just west of ...
All the songs on the new album went through this lengthy process
of thought and revision, each the result of many pages of notes,
character development, and explorations into the best ways to
compel and conclude narratives. Each character emerged only
after sessions of abundant B&F banter and discovery, resulting
in a rich emotional subtext that serves as a foundation for all
these songs. <end excerpt>
So in other words, the characters often emerge, rather than
being fully formed and all growed-up before a single word hits
the page. This Rubik’s Cube they then toss out to us,
challenging us to make all the elements match up somehow. And
most of us have to ask others and discuss and read up on obscure
stuff, because when it comes to knowing what lurks in the hearts
of men, really, only the Shadow knows…
Thanks for asking, Kyle!
love and kisses
diane
Join the TRAVELS WITH STEELY DAN Webring
http://hometown.aol.com/jackofdays/steelytours.htm
John Duffy
<jml2621...@acs.tamu.edu.invalid> writes
>Rikki was a girlfriend of Donald's prior to CBAT and cousin of
>Paul Shaffer. The song is about an older man trying to pick up a
>young, probably innocent, woman according to a Fagen interview
>(does this story line sound familiar??). Perhaps he was trying
>to seduce her with the fine Colombian and Cuervo Gold or some
>such (...thought our little wild time had just begun"). The real
>Rikki did not partake in recreational pharamaceuticals or so she
>told me. I met Rikki briefly a number of years ago - a really
>nice lady. Only by chance did the subject of Steely Dan come up
>and I mentioned that they were my favorite band. She told me:
>"You're not going to believe this!"
>
> Well, you're not going to believe this. Before the CBAT,
>evidently Walter, for a short period of time, was unsure of his
>gender preference (not that there's anything wrong with that).
>Rikki was a big fan of Donald's mom. Unfortunately, we did not
>have the opportunity to talk much further afterwards, as she
>became gravely ill. I lost track of her and wixh her the best
>wherever she is.
>
>
years!
"Rikki" based on real person.... shocker!
Does she have your number :-)
Best Wishes,
John
--
John Duffy
John Duffy
<membabe...@aol.com.invalid> writes
>I’ve been frequently exposed to a certain philosophy: that most
>men are sexually opportunistic and very easily turned to
>homosexual acts, given the right circumstances.
I don't believe that at all Diane.
Heterosexuals make up the vast, vast majority lets be reminded, despite
the over representation of gay people on TV etc..
>>There is no friendship between men that has not an element of
>>sexuality in it, however little accentuated it may be in the
>>nature of the friendship, and however painful the idea of the
>>sexual element would be. But it is enough to remember that
>>there can be no friendship unless there has been some
>>attraction to draw the men together. Much of the affection,
>>protection, and nepotism between men is due to the presence of
>>unsuspected sexual compatibility. [ Otto Weininger, Sex and
>>Character (1903) ]
The idea of another blokes bits and pieces anywhere near me makes me
almost physically sick.
No offence to anyone here,
John
--
John Duffy
TheElSupremo
I always thought "buzz" was a reference to heroin or some other drug that has
taken all the narrator's money and his girl.
Maybe late at night is when his jones kicks in.
El Sup
Lotion Charlie
drugs that result in a buzz.
Since L-U-V creates a nice brain endorphin rush, it could be seen
as the same in a way. If it's a boy-girl-boy triangle, then
"maybe he's a fairy" is a silly, sophmoric throwaway line aimed
at his former frined, now rival. If he dismisses the rival as a
"fairy," a) he feels he has a chance of recapturing his girl, and
b) maybe they weren't intimate (yeah, right). Great, quick look
into the denial process.
It's certainly true that homo-erotic thoughts, behavior and even
art has permeated history since the dawn. Twin studies have
shown that up to 50% of homosexuality is genetic in origin with
the rest having presumably developmental/behavioral origins. It
seems unlikely though that once a complete heterosexual or
homosexual has completed development (emotional as well as
physical) in their teens or 20s, that they might change without a
conscious effort is usually unlikely. As a male hetero (not that
there's anything wrong with that), I can say that I personally
would find even a homoerotic thought repulsive or amusing. I
think we (heteros males that is) perceive or categorize other
males at the most base (limbic system) level 2 ways: as people we
can work or play with OR those who might challenge our family or
power or status in some way. Civilization and society has
dampened or in some cases accentuated the drive for cooperation
(teamwork) and/or competition. Now that I think about it another
perception could simply be a not-threat, but little direct team
benefit. This might be one of the roots of class distinction.
This has always seemed to be one of the major faults of human
nature. In the past classes or castes were based upon family,
money, or status. This system was particularly horrid in England
until this Century. This one of the main purposes of the
Independence and the Constitution, although the US still retained
class distinction in the case of slavery. Even today, one of the
worst class distinctions is between celebrities and
non-celebrities. I'm drifting away from direct SD connection, so
I'll stop here.
John Duffy
<theels...@aol.com> writes
Me too, although the "fairy" reference always threw me a bit, but I
never thought of the protagonist as homosexual.
For all Steely Dan's cryptic lyrics that one word seems more out of
place than possibly any other. It is too much of a stretch to imagine he
is gay and yet in a lonely moment of spite, spurns his former partner
with the unlikely insult "fairy". Especially since he asks "*maybe* he's
a fairy".
That word is the only allusion to homosexuality in the whole song,
unless you make the assumption that Buzz is a mans name (which I never
have). And even if it is someone's name, the use of the word fairy
implies a more homophobic rather than homosexual context if you take it
literally.
It is to do with drugs I'm convinced. However, the word "fairy" doesn't
fit in any interpretation I can figure.
Unless we are all assigning the wrong meaning to the word "fairy"!
(1970's New York slang for something entirely different perhaps?).
John
--
John Duffy
tones
Having always thought that "Buzz" was a substance rather than a person, as I
previously posted, "fairy" to me meant as in Tinkerbell, casting a spell - with
"fairy dust" (drugs).
I might be missing something though...
tones
David Shepard
The story went that in her earlier days she had been working in the
same studio as Steely Dan and caught Becker's interest.
-David.
On Fri, 28 Jul 2000 13:40:21 -0400, "Kyle" <jhk...@attglobal.net>
wrote:
>There are a lot of references to homosexuality in SD songs. "Through with
>Buzz" and "Gaucho" are two of the more overt. I've always thought that
>"Rikki Don't Lose that Number" was also about homosexuality. ("You tell
>yourself you're not my kind, but you don't even know your mind.") Have
>Fagen and Becker ever addressed this? Are either of them gay? Not that
>there's anything wrong with that.
>
>Kyle
>
>
Mpoconnor7
>
>I always thought "buzz" was a reference to heroin or some other drug that has
>taken all the narrator's money and his girl.
>
>Maybe late at night is when his jones kicks in.
>
That is exactly what I always thought, but the line about "Maybe he's a fairy"
never made any sense within that context unless Buzz IS the Drug Dealer and not
the Drug itself.
Michael O'Connor - Modern Renaissance Man
"The probability of one person being right increases in a direct porportion to
the intensity with which others try to prove him wrong"
organleroy
the opiates, leaving his sexual orientation open to self-doubt.
On Mon, 31 Jul 2000 11:33:04 +0100, John Duffy
<jo...@duffy.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <20000730145609...@ng-cu1.aol.com>, TheElSupremo
><theels...@aol.com> writes
>>Hmmm ...
>>
>>I always thought "buzz" was a reference to heroin or some other drug that has
>>taken all the narrator's money and his girl.
>>
>>Maybe late at night is when his jones kicks in.
>>
John Duffy
<organ...@his.organ.again> writes
>My thought always was that the protagonist couldn't get it up due to
>the opiates, leaving his sexual orientation open to self-doubt.
>
>On Mon, 31 Jul 2000 11:33:04 +0100, John Duffy
><jo...@duffy.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>In article <20000730145609...@ng-cu1.aol.com>, TheElSupremo
>><theels...@aol.com> writes
>>>Hmmm ...
>>>
>>>I always thought "buzz" was a reference to heroin or some other drug that has
>>>taken all the narrator's money and his girl.
>>>
>>>Maybe late at night is when his jones kicks in.
>>>
>>>El Sup
Here's What Brian Sweets biography of Steely Dan say's (to my surprise):
"The one-and-a-half minute "Through the Buzz" was Becker and Fagen's
shortest song and also their worst. Laden with strings and a repetitive
lyric, it was, according to Fagen, about... "a more or less platonic
relationship between two people. There's nothing really sexual about it
until one of the young people realises he's being used and starts having
paranoid fantasies and breaks off the relationship. There's no symbolism
or anything, we never use puns. It's a very saccharine sounding track
with a very cynical lyric. We often do that for an ironic purpose. That
is, to juxtapose a rather bitter lyric against rather sweet music"
And yes, Sweet (or possibly the type setter) did write "Through
*the* Buzz".
Personally, I think Sweet made all that lot up. He had no access to DF
or WB in the writing of his book and that whole quote looks like his
attempt at second guessing the meaning of the song. He certainly doesn't
name the source.
Kind of strange he hates the song so much, stranger still that he
states as matter of fact, that the song is "their worst". He must
reeeeeally hate it.
Me? ....I love it.
Regards,
John
--
John Duffy
tones
...not through with the Dan...
tones
DrJ
old posts that i haven't had the energy/time to go through... this post
is just so gorgeous and i am compelled to respond. call me tardy...
ti bon ange wrote:
> The Duck quacked:
>
> >As to "Through with Buzz," I can read some unaddressed
> >homoerotic tension into this brief gem. Protagonist, pissed off
> >at his ex-friend Buzz, accuses him of all sorts of semi-
> >paranoid things. In this vein, he resorts to making (what is in
> >his mind) a derogatory remark about Buzz's sexual orientation,
> >which remark is obviously bogus <snip> BUT--note also that
> >protag misses Buzz in a most poignant way: late at night when
> >he's all alone.
>
> To expand upon your idea, when I hear the narrator lobbing bombs
> at Buzz, I hear envy, and lots of it. So his "maybe he’s a
> fairy" comment even seems like erotic jealousy to me—Buzz always
> wins, always comes out on top <insert your favorite gay "bottom"
> pun here>, including his sexual adventurousness, leaving the
> narrator in the dust.
yes. get this too along the lines of the voice appreciates what she
might see in Buzz and be attracted to. there is a mildly
self-depricating tinge- at least, an "internal dialogue" with himself:
'cept i'm in my room and it's late at night"... look at me, i'm
pathetic... is she better off with him? do i blame her? he takes her all
around the world... what have i got to give her? you know i'm cool yes i
feel all right but on the other hand i'm not really buying it myself
now, am i? so many questions. yes, there is a quality of "immaturity"
to this whiner- or, as David Foster Wallace would say, whinger! bottom
line: i doubt he's really through with Buzz... and he knows it! a
little metaphorical cross-over/allusion to substance-mediated mood
alteration? i wouldn't throw that out of court...
>
>
> Kyle inadvertently raised a good question with his post: how do
> songwriters write? Any rudimentary study of B&F’s backgrounds
> reveals that they are not dummies, but well-read and diverse,
> curious to the point of probing and fascinated by everything
> weird or once found on the margins of society. Especially in
> literature, it’s not possible to partake in a steady diet of Boy
> Meets Girl Etc. And it is in literature where homoeroticism is
> most often balanced on the razor’s edge, where we are made to
> wonder without always getting a straight answer.
lovely. just lovely.
>
>
> My first exposure to homosexuality happened in Sunday School,
> studying the friendship of David and Jonathan in I and II
> Samuel. David wrote: "...greatly beloved were you to me, your
> love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women" (II Sam
> 1:26). These two men seemed to fall in love at first
> sight: "...when David had finished speaking to Saul, the soul of
> Jonathan was bound to the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him
> as his own soul" (I Sam 18:1). Jonathan’s response to David, his
> soulmate, was immediate and dramatic: "Then Jonathan made a
> covenant with David, because he loved him as his own soul. Then
> Jonathan stripped himself of his robe that was upon him, and
> gave it to David, and his sword, and even his armor and bow and
> girdle. (I Sam 18:1-4)"
it was a speedo girdle. very sexy little brief style under-thingie
>
>
> Sure, my Calvinist Sunday School teacher made a point of
> downplaying Jonathan’s display of sudden nakedness, not to
> mention all the other soap-operaish twists in the tale—including
> Saul, Jonathan’s father being homophobic and blaming his son’s
> condition on the kid’s mother, still a standard today. But I
> knew better.
what? it's not always the mother's fault?
>
>
> Homosexual love fares much better in literature than it does in
> conservative society. Virginia Woolf's "Orlando" still makes it
> to the top of intelligent people's booklists.
mood-altering substances...
>
>
> Male friendship and how far it can go is also a hotly debated
> topic in the BeatLit world—the Beat Triumvirate being composed
> of two homosexuals and one guy who claimed to be straight but
> apparently loved the occasional blow job (Burroughs, Ginsberg
> and Kerouac, for those of you who don't know).
mood-altering substances...
> In this milieu
> I’ve been frequently exposed to a certain philosophy: that most
> men are sexually opportunistic and very easily turned to
> homosexual acts, given the right circumstances. Here’s what
> someone said about that almost 100 years ago:
>
> >There is no friendship between men that has not an element of
> >sexuality in it, however little accentuated it may be in the
> >nature of the friendship, and however painful the idea of the
> >sexual element would be. But it is enough to remember that
> >there can be no friendship unless there has been some
> >attraction to draw the men together. Much of the affection,
> >protection, and nepotism between men is due to the presence of
> >unsuspected sexual compatibility. [ Otto Weininger, Sex and
> >Character (1903) ]
yes! my point about your "envy" angle- maybe he's a fairy? dig the
onomatopoetically cued strings that drip gooey syrup all over the
notion. yes, the voice must be picturing Buzz...a nice macho nickname,
potent, razor sharp... sniff... you can smell the testosterone. squirmy
humor lurks within the little dots on the string charts. i still smile
over its elegance as i tickaticka.
and the useage "fairy"... has a certain anachronistic ring to it [though
it slips across the tongue like those violins better than the gutteral
"faggot"] but it evokes fantasy such as the stuff of late at night [or
even latent at night? nyuks].
>
>
> On and on it goes. The slaving meatwheel keeps turning round and
> round, you go back, Jack, safe in heaven dead... and 30 years
> after the beginning of Steely Dan, people are still trying to
> reconcile obscure lyrical references. Walter addressed the
> allure of this recently:
>
> WB: I think there is something to be said for the idea that
> something can retain some element of mystery. That is very
> likable. And I think our new songs, generally speaking, are less
> obscure than they might have been at other times earlier in our
> career. [ PERFORMING SONGWRITER magazine, March/April 2000 ]
>
> "… element of mystery." Yep. And this element makes for
> fascinating and endless discussion about lyrics among the fans.
> wows... thank you. I haven't read that. gorgeously crafted with an
> evocatively mysterious economy of images and trigger words [reeking
> with significance, inside jokes and circular logic. i mean pretzel
> logic]. through with buzz is an amazing example of painting a portrait
> of such a luscious character with so little paint. it makes me think
> of Snake Mary's dream- i would guess she's in detroit with lots of
> money in the bank... ha!!! talk about your rural narrative. she's not
> poolside at some posh Beverly Hills mansion or wading in the
> reflecting pool of the Taj Mahal; look at the smile on her face the
> last time i checked to be sure we're "alone enough"... she's dreaming
> of Detroit! i get: trailer park. tornado warnings...
>
>
> In RS837 [ Return of the Dark Brothers ] Donald gives us deep
> background on himself and Walter as a songwriting team: "[At
> Bard College] We clicked on every level as far as the kind of
> stuff we liked," Fagen says, "the way we defined ourselves—the
> way we were trying to, anyway. We listened to the same jazz
> stations. We liked the same books. When he got there, I was
> writing essentially comic songs that combined pretty much all
> the elements that ended up being the elements, and Walter was
> doing the same sort of things. He was a little bolder maybe than
> I was in what he was willing to address in a song. Bolder in the
> sense that maybe my attempts were more in a fantasy realm, and
> he addressed things that maybe started from a more precise
> observation, even though they might veer into fantasy. I tended
> to be a little more insular, left to my own devices."
fabulous stuff. in the GB way back there was a long thread regarding the
comment "Fagen, the actor" to which i took exception.
i argued that an artist cannot keep themselves out of the art.
"willingness to address" speaks to this so well. the choices made [even
chosing to avoid] is self-expressive, like it or not.
<snippage re: WOH> more wows. cut because it's a whole entire nother
thing. i read that D introduced WOH at one gig as a 'sad story about a
guy who's uncomfortable in his own skin' [which shoots down my HIV+
interp?]. i would love to hear WOH re-deconstructed now with this fresh
info.
toodles
David
Mal Morrison
"DrJ" <deep...@umich.edu> wrote in message
news:39A41493...@umich.edu...
ti bon ange wrote:
> > My first exposure to homosexuality happened in Sunday School,
> > studying the friendship of David and Jonathan in I and II
> > Samuel. David wrote: "...greatly beloved were you to me, your
> > love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women" (II Sam
> > 1:26). These two men seemed to fall in love at first
> > sight: "...when David had finished speaking to Saul, the soul of
> > Jonathan was bound to the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him
> > as his own soul" (I Sam 18:1). Jonathan's response to David, his
> > soulmate, was immediate and dramatic: "Then Jonathan made a
> > covenant with David, because he loved him as his own soul. Then
> > Jonathan stripped himself of his robe that was upon him, and
> > gave it to David, and his sword, and even his armor and bow and
> > girdle. (I Sam 18:1-4)"
> it was a speedo girdle. very sexy little brief style under-thingie
Yes, and according to a piece of pulp (non) fiction I'm currently reading,
the Gospel of Mark originally contained this account of the account of the
raising of Lazarus.
"And straightway, going in where the youth was, he stretched forth his hand
and raised him, seizing his hand. But the youth, looking upon him, loved him
and began to beseech him that he may be with him. And going out of the tomb
they came into the house of the youth, for he was rich. And after six days,
Jesus told him what to do and in the evening the youth comes to him, wearing
a linen cloth over naked. And he remained with him that night, for Jesus
taught him the mystery of the Kingdom of God."
The Church apparently ordered this passage removed from the Bible and in a
written correspondence between two bishops at the time, it was suggested
that the passage might encourage people to 'wander from the narrow road of
the commandments into the boundless abyss of the carnal and bodily sins'
(nice words)
The bishops thought that the passage might promote politically incorrect
thought whereas, as they well knew, homosexuality is a sin and as such is
the choice of the individual who partakes.
Presumably ever since, this decision of the bishops about Mark's Gospel and
the sinfulness of homosexuality has been known as 'Two against Nature *and*
Nurture'.
Mal
shudehill
John Duffy <jo...@duffy.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> Personally, I think Sweet made all that lot up. He had no access to DF
>or WB in the writing of his book and that whole quote looks like his
>attempt at second guessing the meaning of the song. He certainly doesn't
>name the source.
Just about that whole freakin' book is a series of quotes from
uncredited sources. I recognized just about every quote from a drummer
in there as being from Modern Drummer articles I have read, but
there's no crediting of MD. The reader could easily think that Sweet
actually spoke to Marotta, Porcaro, etc. I'd imagine the same sort of
thing goes for the Becker & Fagen quotes in there. It's quite poor
writing, nearly a hack job in my mind (mvho, of course).
It is a useful reference, though, I must say.
take care,
Liz
John Duffy
....Sleepy John, tonight.
John Duffy
<parad...@earthlink.net> writes
>It is a useful reference, though, I must say.
Fancy a fuck?
>take care,
>Liz
>
You too Liz :-)
--
John Duffy
shudehill
John Duffy <jo...@duffy.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Fancy a fuck?
Oh, gee John, not here in front of the Pancacke House crowd.
take care,
Liz
richf...@my-deja.com
John Duffy <jo...@duffy.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> "The one-and-a-half minute "Through the Buzz" was Becker and Fagen's
> shortest song and also their worst. Laden with strings and a
> repetitive lyric, it was, according to Fagen, about... "a more or
> less platonic relationship between two people. There's nothing really
> sexual about it until one of the young people realises he's being
> used and starts having paranoid fantasies and breaks off the
> relationship. There's no symbolism or anything, we never use puns.
> It's a very saccharine sounding track with a very cynical lyric. We
> often do that for an ironic purpose. That is, to juxtapose a rather
bitter lyric against rather sweet music"
>
Sweet/saccharine? This song has always sounded kind of jarring and
"outside" to me, melodically and harmonically, a real ear-bender the
first time you hear it for sure. Lots of other times, of course,
especially on Aja (and on 2vN for that matter), you can certainly
recognize the Fagen-described device of sugar-coating subversive
lyrical content with slick syrupy (and eminently pleasing) aural
packaging.
richforman
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
tim r
"John Duffy" <jo...@duffy.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:PB9GpGA7...@duffy.demon.co.uk...
(norman) mother!
(mother) yes norman?
tim r
John Duffy
<timre...@cableinet.co.uk> writes
to wake up and read that than myself (apart from mother of course :-)
Liz has forgiven me, bless her.
--
John Duffy