Overhyping "Second Arrangement"
nautticat
versions of Second Arrangement that I
Napped ... I think it's been (and being)
overhyped ... like the "lost Robert Johnson
song" ...
It's not only NOT a Steely Dan classic, but it
doesn't tread water structurally, harmonically
or even lyrically with any of the other stuff on
Gaucho (which I think is superb). They didn't
work on the composition enough ... or edit/
refine it enough.
It's a nice thing for us hard-cores to have. I
think it's cool that there's something like that
floating around, but if it was an undeniable
classic, they woulda FOUND a way to redo it
right -- the Steely Dan Way, like they did with
everything else.
It doesn't seem like a priceless gem to me.
Maybe an also-ran that is more a romantic
curiosity at this point than anything else.
--
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Howard
nautticat <naut...@aol.com> wrote:
> Hmmmmm ... having heard at least two
> versions of Second Arrangement that I
> Napped ... I think it's been (and being)
> overhyped ... like the "lost Robert Johnson
> song" ...
>
> It's not only NOT a Steely Dan classic, but it
> doesn't tread water structurally, harmonically
> or even lyrically with any of the other stuff on
> Gaucho (which I think is superb).
Well, that's your opinion ... all I can say is that I don't agree!
I think it's a fine song, and had it not been wiped by the engineer,
would probably rate amongst my fave Gaucho tracks, along with B.Sisters
and Glamour Profession.
"doesn't tread water harmonically or lyrically" ?
Harmonically, it is an absolute gem, full of rich chords and unusual
changes. In the verse, the song sounds like it is always *just about* to
get to the tonic chord (Em), and yet it only plays this chord once (for
half a bar) in the entire verse! You are lead towards the Em, then
pulled away from it. This "harmonic teasing " is one of the reasons I
love it. The way the song modulates around the "a sparkling conscience"
line is also a very nice touch.
Lyrically? "Stashed in the yellow Jag, I've got my life and laundry in a
Gladstone bag". If that's not a great line, I don't know what is.
>
> It's a nice thing for us hard-cores to have. I
> think it's cool that there's something like that
> floating around, but if it was an undeniable
> classic, they woulda FOUND a way to redo it
> right -- the Steely Dan Way, like they did with
> everything else.
>
It's hard to imagine how emotionally draining it must have been to spend
several months on a song that everyone (D+W, Roger Nichols and I think
Gary Katz too) agreed was the best Gaucho song at that point, then to
lose the song. They spent tens of thousands of dollars and countless
weeks trying to remake it, but they never got it to sound as good. Would
you have had the energy and determination to carry on at that point? I
don't think I would.
You can hear what I believe is an extract from the remade version at
John Granatino's site:
http://www.granatino.com/sdresource/wandm.htm
and, surprise surprise, it doesn't sound as good as the version that was
wiped.
Howard
Barry Gold
you would know why they never tried to "redo it" The song is a Steely
Dan masterpiece! It has the MONSTER groove and a fantastic SD feel. You
can't get a more "classic" Steely Dan tune then this!
----------------------------------------------------
Wrote: It's a nice thing for us hard-cores to have. I think it's cool
nautticat
his own" and it's all a matter of personal taste,
but you guys are proving my point about the
over-romanticization of this song ...
The first thing is this: NONE of us has heard
the real intended version of this song, so the
most any of us can do is guess and speculate
on listening to other versions.
The first reply in defense of the tune (which I
appreciate as a genuine reply) noted a cool
chord turnaround and some harmonic tension.
OK but nearly every Steely Dan song has a lot
of both. The first reply also noted a cool line
of lyric. Agreed. It's a nice line. But this little
bit of tension and a nice lyric line makes this
song stand up with their body of work?
(Answer: Not in my view.)
The point that Steely Dan couldn't "re-create"
the song is kinda hard to stomach. The quality
of musicians D+W brought in couldn't do it?
Come on. They could do anything. It doesn't
even strike me as a particularly difficult song
to play (unlike many of their others). The only
point worth making (that no one made) is that
they tried the re-created version with Gadd
on drums instead of Ed Greene from the
original ... they're totally different.
The claim about lack of spontaneity in the re-
created version is also wondrous. No Steely
Dan songs from that period had spontaneity -
- they were much-labored, cut-and-paste art-
board creations by that time (albeit excellent
ones). They'd work four hours on eight bars
of drums. Spontaneity?
If they couldn't re-create it, perhaps it was
because it just didn't stand up to the rest of
the record and they lost their inspiration.
And if this was on Gaucho, what would have
come off to make room for what was
obviously a long song?
The second respondent ought not to make
personal challenges and actually join the
debate. As a Dan fan for 30 years and a full-
time newspaper pop critic for a major
newspaper in Southern California, I can stand
up with your hard-coreness anytime, champ.
Finally, the most unbecoming attribute of this
Web site is this deep and often blind loyalty to
everything the band ever did. They're my
favorites too, but they are not Gods. They
made some bad moves.
This is supposed to be a newsgroup where
highs and lows are debated -- not the Donald
and Walter High Five Society.
Howard
nautticat <naut...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> The first thing is this: NONE of us has heard
> the real intended version of this song, so the
> most any of us can do is guess and speculate
> on listening to other versions.
I don't agree - I am convinced that the full-band version of the song
(available from http://members.home.com/metzger/dan/sounds.htm amongst
other places) IS the version that eventually was wiped. This version
sounds to me about 90% complete - it has full rhythm section, several
keyboards, some lead guitar, backing vocals etc. To my ears, the only
things left to be done were the main vocals (what you hear are guide
vocals I think) and some extra soloing (probably guitar) to fill out the
gaps.
Reasons why I think this is the version that was wiped:
First, this version sounds great (to me at least).
Second, I don't think the version that they tried to remake ever got
beyond the basic rhythm track, so it wouldn't have had any backing
vocals or lead guitar etc. As we know, if the guys weren't happy with
the rhythm track, they wouldn't go any further.
Thirdly, there is a snippet of what I believe is the remade version at
John Granatino's site: http://www.granatino.com/sdresource/wandm.htm
(look for "mystery song"). It is only the basic rhythm track and -
surprise! - it doesn't sound as good as the full-band version.
So it *is* possible to hear the version that was wiped and compare it
with the aborted remake.
> The first reply in defense of the tune (which I
> appreciate as a genuine reply) noted a cool
> chord turnaround and some harmonic tension.
> OK but nearly every Steely Dan song has a lot
> of both. The first reply also noted a cool line
> of lyric. Agreed. It's a nice line. But this little
> bit of tension and a nice lyric line makes this
> song stand up with their body of work?
> (Answer: Not in my view.)
I was just giving examples of some of the harmonic ideas in the song
that I like. These are not the *only* parts of harmonic interest! In my
opinion, the 2nd Arr. is easily as rich and harmonically interesting as
songs like B. Sisters. If you compare the chord changes in the verse and
chorus with Hey 19 or Time out of Mind, I think 2nd Arr. wins hands down
(and I still think 19 and TOOM are fine songs).
Also, I just quoted one of my favourite lines - this doesn't imply it is
the *only* good line in the song.
It's only my opinion, but I can't see why you think 2nd Arr. is
harmonically and lyrically bland compared with the rest of Gaucho.
> The point that Steely Dan couldn't "re-create"
> the song is kinda hard to stomach. The quality
> of musicians D+W brought in couldn't do it?
> Come on. They could do anything. It doesn't
> even strike me as a particularly difficult song
> to play (unlike many of their others). The only
> point worth making (that no one made) is that
> they tried the re-created version with Gadd
> on drums instead of Ed Greene from the
> original ... they're totally different.
>
Brian Sweet makes the same point about drummers in his book (I think
they also used a different keyboard player on the remake). I guess D+W
had their reasons for this, even if it's hard to see what they are.
As to why they gave up on the remake - again, the psychological factors
surrounding the album and the remake are important I think. They were
not having a happy time with the Gaucho album. The fact that everyone
thought the 2nd Arr. was such a good song (before the accident) was
pretty much the only ray of light at the time. Imagine losing that song,
after so much work, and after achieving such good results. Imagine the
depression sinking in, combined with problems with the players,
difficulties between D & W. Imagine, after a couple of months of solid
sweat (and a few tens of thousands of dollars), that the remake of the
song still sounded dead. I think I would be tempted to take a break at
the very list, and work on fresh material. Maybe that's what they did,
and then they just couldn't face returning to the song.
... and just to make it clear, I agree that there should be open debate
and criticism. Thinking that every single Steely Dan song is a
masterpiece is NOT a pre-requisite of being a "true Dan fan". I just
happen to think that this song in particular is an excellent song. (I
also believe that 2 Against Nature would probably be a better album with
something else instead of Cousin Dupree).
Howard
snap...@my-deja.com
opinion. I'll never understand why this was chosen for first radio-play.
Lyrically, I think 2nd Arrangement is fantastic. There's an interesting
discussion of the lyrics on the Fever Dreams website
(http://home.earthlink.net/~oleander1/Etc.htm) where the writer poses
the possibility that the lyric in the chorus states "Larue steps
out/With no regrets" - a reference to 40s and 50s cowboy star Lash
Larue who claimed to have been married 10 times. If anybody would be
making a song reference to Lash Larue, it would be Becker and Fagen
(Kathy Berberian, anyone?).
Also, I would have loved to have heard a fleshed-out version of Kulee
Baba. I think that song's amazing.
Dan
nautticat
have a well-thought-out defense ...
This whole thing over "The Second
Arrangement" still strikes me as being told in
rather breathless fashion. I think it's very
fashionable to be a Steely Dan fan and be
going crazy over some mysterious song like
this. Fits the milieu of the band. I mean, "of
course there's a secretly wiped song! there
had to be!"
I still think it's open to debate whether that
version you hear on that Web site is the
wiped version. My gut is no. I thought the
engineer wiped 3/4 of ALL 24 tracks that
night before he realized his error (and broke
down in tears) ... if that's true, how are any
front-to-back "wiped versions" around at all
to listen to?? And if 90%-completed board
versions of this snuck out and are floating
around, how did they get out? Acetate?
Perhaps ... but if that one got out, there must
be other similarly nearly-completed circa 1980
stuff out there duped off the board, right?
Where are they?
In defense of Cousin Dupree, the unsavory
incestual story in the lyric and the pop hook
were released first I'm sure to christen radio's
reawakening to the band's first studio record
in 20 years. It's got the Steely Dan groove and
it's an obnoxiously catchy-enough tune. Every
Steely Dan song can't be angular and jagged
and full of major 9 and sharp 11 chords. Incest
kept it from being a sugary song. It was one
of the best pop records on the radio all year.
The Grammy nomination shows that -- so
does its inclusion in lots of 2000 year-end top
10 lists.
Ahh but then there is the Steely Dan
cognescenti to please ...
--
__________________
Music mysteries solved here:
Howard
nautticat <naut...@aol.com> wrote:
> OK, well, I still don't agree, but at least you
> have a well-thought-out defense ...
>
> This whole thing over "The Second
> Arrangement" still strikes me as being told in
> rather breathless fashion. I think it's very
> fashionable to be a Steely Dan fan and be
> going crazy over some mysterious song like
> this. Fits the milieu of the band. I mean, "of
> course there's a secretly wiped song! there
> had to be!"
I guess there is some truth in this. For some fans, there is an
appealing quality about a mysterious/legendary "lost track".
Some build up the legend out of all proportion ... a little like
the number of guitar solos they tried for "Peg" before finding one
they liked, or the number of takes it took to record such-and-such
a song on Gaucho.
But there's no denying that the story of the lost 2nd Arr. is unusual,
and rather fascinating. And since (to me at least) the song is
a superb example of their writing, I'm interested enough to try and find
out more, and sort out the truth from the legend.
>
> I still think it's open to debate whether that
> version you hear on that Web site is the
> wiped version. My gut is no. I thought the
> engineer wiped 3/4 of ALL 24 tracks that
> night before he realized his error (and broke
> down in tears) ... if that's true, how are any
> front-to-back "wiped versions" around at all
> to listen to?? And if 90%-completed board
> versions of this snuck out and are floating
> around, how did they get out? Acetate?
> Perhaps ... but if that one got out, there must
> be other similarly nearly-completed circa 1980
> stuff out there duped off the board, right?
> Where are they?
>
There are several similar Gaucho outtakes - partly finished versions
of the tracks that eventually made it to the album - available from
Andy Metzger's site:
http://members.home.com/metzger/dan/sounds.htm
Some of these are very similar to the full-band version of 2nd Arr.,
i.e they have complete rhythm tracks, guide vocals, and sometimes
saxophones or other overdubs.
Don't know if this will convince you about the 2nd arr. version. If this
*is* the remake version they later rejected (I don't believe this), then
why would they record all those overdubs (guitar, backing vocals etc) if
they were not happy with the basic track? I don't find it surprising
that mixdowns of partially completed tracks were made and are still in
circulation. If I was an engineer working with them, I'd be sorely
tempted to take a mix of 2nd arr. home with me to listen to!
Howard
k...@onhoops.com
breathless.
The idea behind it, the execution of it, the attitude...this song is,
to me at least, one of the finest things these two have ever done.
Beautiful.
It's my job to explain things, to complain and dissect and discourage
and encourage and give reasons why. I can't explain what this song does
to me, it just seems to work.
dr...@my-deja.com
and Rhodes. It must be a very early version as the lyrics are quite
different in places and less worked out. Essentially the song is
stripped naked. Donald's voice is ...well, a demo voice. 2A a
beautiful melody and structure in the Gaucho/Nightfly period where
there were some of almost Broadway-like (Babylon Sisters,
Glamour Profession, The Nightfly). I wish I were a decent
musician (or even just not embarrassing), but it's fun and a real
challenge to try to finger this one on the keys. I'd like to see
Howard break this down. Kulee Baba and Can't Write Home About
You I hate to say it but they rank a bit better than say My Rival (love
what they did with it) or Jack of Speed or Cousin Dupree (here's
hoping Wet Side Story shows up on the next one). Although Mr.
Sam (from the KL outtakes) is snappy, these songs are much
more interesting. There's almost a Cole Porter flair about the
composition that represents well their maturing songwriting
abilities. Too bad life caught up with Mssr Fagen and Becker. The
writer's block was especially sad, though in retrospect may have
been inevitable.