Don and Walter`s personal faiths?
Net...@pemail.net
Jkix
Silent Z
"Some Men get the world, others get a former hooker and a trip to Arizona"
"Marmalade, I like marmalade"
Gage456
to the audience about being 13 and don interjected"oh,you must have been
bar-mitzvahed"
Chris
<199808292338...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
Being Jewish and having a personal faith aren't the same thing. I've argued
for years (with the Jewish woman I live with, for instance) that it's
possible to be Jewish and an atheist at the same time, while it's not
possible to be Baptist (the faith in which I was raised) and an atheist (my
faith of choice) at the same time.
--Chris
http://members.aol.com/chris002
STRIBS
be practised as a philosophy and not a religion. Baptists--especially
fundamentalists--don't look very kindly upon this type of thinking--I can
tell you from experience!
As I understand it, an orthodox Jew has the faith, but it is entirely
possible to be a secular Jew--and this is the type of Jews I submit Becker
and Fagan are.
Gremal
<6scuqt$n0s$1...@samsara0.mindspring.com>...
i think you are taking certain liberties with what it means to be jewish.
the faith is based on the old testament, the torah (the five books of
moses) and other religious writings that definitely define judaism as
having belief in adonai, the one god.
a reform or conservative jew can have just as much "faith" in terms of
judaism as do orthodox jews. i am a bit confused because you distinguished
between an orthodox and "secular" jews. orthodox jews lead secular lives
away from temple, just like reform jews lead secular lives away from temple
and christians lead secular lives away from church. the difference between
reform and orthodox jews is that reform have looser interpretations of many
of the traditional laws and rules, such as the segregation of men and women
in synagogues, the strict rules about keeping a kosher kitchen, etc.
certainly judaism is not comparable to buddhism(!).
Jackofdays
>certainly judaism is not comparable to buddhism(!).
>
No, it's not comparable, and I think the point in the original post was that
Jews can be Jews and still be atheists because people are usually Jewish by
birth.
I studied to convert to Judaism a few years ago, and the faith or assignation
is handed down in families forever. It's not the same with Christians, not even
remotely. And I don't think it's necessarily the same with Buddhists, at least
not the ones I know.
A practicing Buddhist is never an atheist. It's possible to be born into a
Buddhist family or a culture, but that doesn't make a person Buddhist. A person
born into a Buddhist family can certainly elect to become an atheist, but if he
does, he is no longer a Buddhist.
By the way, I don't think Becker is Jewish. I don't know why, but I have some
vague memory of the boys being a Christian/Jewish collaboration, speaking
loosely, of course.
diane
Read "The Cult of Kerouac" at
http://members.aol.com/kerouacult
and "30 Years On The Road" at
http://members.aol.com/jackofdays
Jigme Dorje
Net...@pemail.net wrote:
> Is Don Jewish? Do they practise a religion, and to what degree? Anyone know?
My personal suspicion is that WB at least is Buddhist judging from the the
Tibetan chants that appear on his 11 Tracks of Whack. In the liner notes he
credits Nechung Rinpoche and other Tibertan monks in Hawaii and he adds: "FREE
TIBET". Since the SDs' music is avowedly apolitical, I would have to venture
that WB's sympothies are religious.
A case can be made that some SD songs appear to have Buddhist undertones,
including "Do it Again", "Gold Teeth", and, most obviously "Boddhisattva." In an
interview, one of the boys stated that "Boddhisattva" actually parodies
Westerners' oversimplistic understanding of Buddhism. This implies a more than
casual familiarity with Buddhism.
Chris
<199808311050...@ladder03.news.aol.com>...
>No, it's not comparable, and I think the point in the original post was
that
>Jews can be Jews and still be atheists because people are usually Jewish by
>birth.
Precisely. Judaism is essentially a genetic heritage, passed (for purposes
of record keeping) down the maternal line. It carries with it a set of
beliefs, but they seem to be optional. Indeed, Jews seem to prize
independent thinking, which is antithetical to faith. I'm not sure that even
Orthodox Jews necessarily believe in God (though many do). They just follow
a more rigorous set of behavioral traditions, like keeping Kosher and
separating the silverware.
I grew up a "Christian" in a neighborhood with a large Jewish population. I
lost any religious beliefs I might have had at about the time my brain fully
formed -- I believe this occurs at age 12 -- and never looked back. My
Jewish friends were proud of their heritage and went off every Saturday to
learn Hebrew, but I never had the impression that they were any more
religious than I was.
I would be very surprised if Donald Fagen held any deep Jewish religious
beliefs. He reminds me too much of all those Jewish kids I grew up with --
and more than a little of myself.
--Chris
http://members.aol.com/chris002
Charles Simms
up in Queens,NY and in fact is German..case closed next subject please.
any world that I'm welcomed to.. is better, than the one, I come
from!
STRIBS
>
>certainly judaism is not comparable to buddhism(!).
I wasn't comparing tenets of Buddhism with those of Judaism; I was comparing
how individuals subscribe to these philosophies.
Stribs
Gremal
<6selb9$99o$1...@winter.news.erols.com>...
> Jackofdays wrote in message
> <199808311050...@ladder03.news.aol.com>...
>
> >No, it's not comparable, and I think the point in the original post was
> that
> >Jews can be Jews and still be atheists because people are usually Jewish
by
> >birth.
> Precisely. Judaism is essentially a genetic heritage, passed (for
purposes
> of record keeping) down the maternal line.
judaism has nothing to do with genetics. period. heritage? yes.
genetics? no. not unless you're hitler or some other fascist seeking to
start a pogrom.
judaism is a religion, not a genetic classification. i cannot
overemphasize that. true, society tends to accept that if someone's mother
is jewish than they are jewish, but similar assumptions are made about
individuals from christian households. they're generally thought to be
christian.
> It carries with it a set of
> beliefs, but they seem to be optional.
the set of beliefs defined by the torah, talmud, etc. are not optional. to
be a practicing jew, you must conduct your life in accordance with jewish
law. there seems to be a lack of understanding here re the differences
between practicing jews, nonpracticing jews, and individuals who have
completely stepped away from their religion.
> Indeed, Jews seem to prize
> independent thinking, which is antithetical to faith.
first of all, it is silly to stereotype. if in your experience jews you've
known have been independent thinkers, that's fine. but jews, like
individuals of any other tradition, can be intelligent or stupid, think
creatively or follow the herd, pursue money or pursue other values, etc.
etc.
Secondly, faith is not exclusive of independent thinking. some aspects of
organized religion may seem diametrically opposed to independent thinking,
but faith and spirituality are different matters altogether (discussions of
which are best avoided in this forum).
> I'm not sure that even
> Orthodox Jews necessarily believe in God (though many do).
if an orthodox jew didn't believe in god, s/he would never admit it.
putting god in the forefront of your life is part of what judaism is all
about, particularly for orthodox jews. adults don't attend an orthodox
synagogue if their belief in god is shaky.
> They just follow
> a more rigorous set of behavioral traditions, like keeping Kosher and
> separating the silverware.
spend a couple days in your average orthodox household and your average
reform or conservative household. you will notice many more differences
than what you see in the kitchen.
i apologize that this thread is getting away from the original topic.
Jackofdays
>judaism has nothing to do with genetics. period. heritage? yes.
>genetics? no. not unless you're hitler or some other fascist seeking to
>start a pogrom.
You're absolutely right. I think Chris just made a bad choice of words here
when he said "genetic."
>
>judaism is a religion, not a genetic classification. i cannot
>overemphasize that. true, society tends to accept that if someone's mother
>is jewish than they are jewish, but similar assumptions are made about
>individuals from christian households. they're generally thought to be
>christian.
>
But I disagree with this, based on my conversion studies. At Temple, Jews
frequently asked me, "What is the Christian tradition?" and I couldn't answer
the question. Judaism is a tradition, and children of Jews are Jewish from
birth. Christianity requires a scenario of repentance and acceptance of Christ
as one's savior. That "moment of truth" is hoped for, but not by any means
assumed.
Now I've probably made things even more complicated, and I agree, this topic
has assumed a life of its own, and should be dropped.
But the original question was what Donald's and Walter's personal faith was. No
one has answered that yet.
I believe Donald's personal faith is Libby, and Walter's personal faith is
macadamia nuts.
Chris Lampton
<199809011910...@ladder03.news.aol.com>...
>Gremal wrote:
>>judaism has nothing to do with genetics. period. heritage? yes.
>>genetics? no. not unless you're hitler or some other fascist seeking to
>>start a pogrom.
>
>You're absolutely right. I think Chris just made a bad choice of words here
>when he said "genetic."
I apologize if my use of the term "genetic" brought to mind the odious
phrase "eugenics", which is a whole 'nother concept and one that is better
left buried with the Nazis who brought this theoretical notion to horrible
life. A bad choice of words this was, but the phrase "genetic heritage" is
essentially correct, if redundant. One gets one's heritage from one's
ancestors. Ancestors are one's genetic progenitors (another redundant
phrase). My own genetic heritage, religion-wise, is "Christian", though this
is largely meaningless to me. I suspect that only a few centuries ago my
ancestors were worshipping graven idols and baying at the moon. Perhaps a
more important aspect of my heritage is that it's Anglo-Saxon, which is
essentially a mongrel race from western Europe. When my ancestors were
baying at the moon, Jews already had a proud and often tragic heritage, and
by no means was it entirely religious. The problem may be that there are at
least two meanings of the word "Jew": Someone who observes the Jewish faith
and someone who was born to a Jewish mother. The congruence between the two
is only partial.
But, as both Diane and Gremal have pointed out, we've wandered far afield
here -- and still haven't answered the original poster's question about Don
and Walter personal faiths. In truth, given their tendency for making
comically self-contradictory public statements, I suspect that the Boys may
not want us to know this or anything _else_ private about them. Which is
certainly their prerogative.
--Chris
http://members.aol.com/chris002
p.s. I would, however, like to point out that I've been to a lot more
Passover Seders than Easter dinners. :)
ikr
>I believe Donald's personal faith is Libby, and Walter's personal faith is
>macadamia nuts.
What are 'macadamia nuts', please?
Jackofdays
sweet nuts that are salted and sold for about the same price as an ounce of
gold.
Walter lives in Honolulu and is a Hawaiiphile. That's why I said macadamia
nuts, tongue in cheek, as what I'd guess is his passion.
john j. humphreys
Kansas, and Becker is from some remote appalachian foothill in West (by
god) Virginia......i.e. any world that I am welcome to is better than
[West (by god) Virginia]....see how it fits....but that is secondhand
information, and I wouldn't swear to it's validity.
John H.