Bodhisattva drumming
B
In Bodhisattva, does anyone hear the drummer (hodder)speeding up
during the guitar solo?
I've heard that Steely Dan drummers all played to a click, so I'm
wondering what happened here. Is it an illution, or is it real?
Emannuel lewis
>From: bwa...@yahoo.com (B)
>Date: 12/6/02 1:57 PM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <9a821ccf.02120...@posting.google.com>
I think you need to know what you're talking about before starting another
mindless thread.
Nat and Al Enquirer
news:9a821ccf.02120...@posting.google.com...
We do not know about their using mechanical mean of keeping rhythm in the
studio. Doubt it would be needed.
Just listened again (always happy for the opportunity), and there is no
change in the tempo of the drum playing until it is required on the last
three chords.
We would have to say it is your imagination. The drumming is
_comparatively_ metronomic (very heavy backbeat) through most of the song.
What may be throwing you is when Mr. Hodder gets a little more free in his
figures during the final guitar solos, but he never changes his tempo. He
is rock solid throughout.
--
Respectfully,
_////|\\\\_
(-)= )|( =(-)
/ / | \ \
(_ ) | ( _)
//// | \\\\
(_____|_____)
Nat and Al
I learned that it is the weak who are cruel, and that gentleness is to be
expected only from the strong. - attributed to Leo C. Rosten (1908-1997)
Please remove *YOUR SHOES* before replying by e-mail.
Poo Stripe
click track.
In article
<eJhI9.41658$vM1.3...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, Nat and
Nat and Al Enquirer
news:071220020916253666%poos...@poopypants.com...
> I can't believe people like Bernard Purdie would ever need a -- snip --
>click track.
>
> In article
> <eJhI9.41658$vM1.3...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, Nat and
> Al Enquirer < SHOES*"@att.net> wrote:
-- snip --
> > We do not know about their using mechanical mean of keeping rhythm in
the
> > studio. Doubt it would be needed.
-- snip --
We are certainly not authorities on SD, but from the articles by and
interviews of Mr. Fagan and Mr. Becker we do not get the impression a
drummer that had tempo problems would last one session (or even one hour
more than likely). For that matter, why would they even engage a drummer
whose capabilities were not already known to them. Anyone here ever get the
impression these guys are sloppy in the studio?
Steve2000indeja
>impression these guys are sloppy in the studio?
>
> Nat and Al
I think one of the perks for Becker and Fagen breaking up the band was to get
to use A List session drummers. Jim Hodder was adequate and he was willing to
commit to the Steely Dan band project, but they were using guys like Jeff
Porcaro before the band was even dissolved, i think.
Didn't they take Porcaro out on the last tour 70s tour as a 'second drummer?'
The drum part on a recording can be critical. In pre-drum machine days it could
be a maddening situation if there were tempo or groove problems. Thesedays you
can 'fix' a human drummer's playing with software. Fagen and Becker have been
notoriously picky about their tempos and grooves.
On "ShowBiz Kids" they couldn't get a solid groove out of whoever was drumming,
so they had Roger Nichols make an analog tape loop by taking a section tape
with solid, in time acceptable drumming on it and physically 'looping' it to
play back through the tape machine... This predated today's rampant (digital)
loop based music production by 20 years or so.
They cut and recut basic tracks on Royal Scam, Aja and Gaucho using different
rhythm sections/drummers- always looking for the magic groove.
Digital technology got to the point that drum machines were viable circa the
late 70s and SD didn't wait for the music manufacturers to come up with one.
Roger Nichols invented "Wendel" - a steady (8 bit?) computer program/drum
machine which first surfaced on "Gaucho" and began (arguably) their era of drum
machine sounding rhythm tracks. To me this is not a negative thing. It's just
what it is.
Check it out- many of the great songs on Gaucho and Nightfly have a
machine/strict tempo feel to them. I seem to recall reading once that they made
it a point to credit the human session drummers on Gaucho, even if the
drums/tempos were mainly done by Wendel on a track. Wendel did get credits too,
i believe.
Steely Dan and Roger have always embraced technology and were one of the first
major artists to record all digitally. I think they tried to do Gaucho that way
but technology wasn't there yet. Could be wrong. By "The Nightfly" it was all
digital recording and a bunch of digital grooves...though some of the cool
shuffles seem to have an obvious human drummer on them.
This was very early 80s stuff and 'digital' did not have the sometimes negative
stigma it would later get because of drum machine and digital effects over-use
-and abuse- by the rest of the pop and rock music world who these sounds
because they were trendy. Steely Dan have never been about trends. They are
about quality, excellence...perfection and grace.
When I read some folks complaining about 2VNs computer/machine-ish grooves -
and maybe some of the same about Kama...I go, hey, wait a minute. These guys
have been using this technology for 20+ years...seemingly in efforts to attain
in-tempo grooves and eventually be able to easily alter them and try on
different ideas without having to bring in 4 or more A list triple scales
session players to recut a basic track.
Heck if you listen to Steely Dan's first hit "Do It Again," it's played over a
wonderful hypnotic rhythm track, certainly performed by a human drummer and
percussionists...but the type of loopy groove that can now easily be created
and performed by software..
again, imo..
Steve
John Misrahi
I believe they did, I think it mentions it in the liner notes for either
'Katy Lied', or 'Countdown'.
John
DrDiamond, Luver ov Wimmen
) wrote:
> I think one of the perks for Becker and Fagen breaking up the band was to get
>to use A List session drummers. Jim Hodder was adequate and he was willing to
>commit to the Steely Dan band project, but they were using guys like Jeff
>Porcaro before the band was even dissolved, i think.
>
I just recently began listening to Countdown To Ecstasy. First time,
really. Not sure why, I've had the Citizen Box Set for years now,
just kinda never did. In any event, I absolutely love it. Every
second, save Reelin', which I usually skip. I like the tune, but the
guital soloing/tone of Elliot Randalllll kills me. Plus I've heard
it many a time. In any event, one of the things that struck me about
the first album was Hodder. Very solid, and very well composed ideas
and melodys. And he's the drummer! bah. I think he was terrific,
and it's too bad, IMO, that he didn't stay on longer.
>
>Digital technology got to the point that drum machines were viable circa the
>late 70s and SD didn't wait for the music manufacturers to come up with one.
>Roger Nichols invented "Wendel" - a steady (8 bit?) computer program/drum
>machine which first surfaced on "Gaucho" and began (arguably) their era of drum
>machine sounding rhythm tracks. To me this is not a negative thing. It's just
>what it is.
>
Roger has talked extensively about the WENDELS on his forum. WENDEL
Jr., used on Gaucho, was 12-bit. WENDEL II, used on Nightfly, was 16.
Same function, I believe.
>Check it out- many of the great songs on Gaucho and Nightfly have a
>machine/strict tempo feel to them. I seem to recall reading once that they made
>it a point to credit the human session drummers on Gaucho, even if the
>drums/tempos were mainly done by Wendel on a track. Wendel did get credits too,
>i believe.
>
Best I can tell, the WENDELS replaced the drummers incoming signal
with the digital sample. Thus the ahead-of-its-time clarity and
spacing of the drums and cymbals. No mic bleed, which is a big plus
in many recording situations. I like using a real snare and cymbals,
and a digital kit for kick and toms. Makes my humble project studio
seem less humble. hehe I'm still not clear on what sort of tempo
control the WENDELS had, if any.
On another hand entirely, for any Bad Jazz fans in the room
*cough Steve cough* , I should have a site up soon. Creepy Ryan
is moving, and as soon as he gets set up, I'll design a little page
and post what I've been up to. My methods have a certain defined
shape I didn't have before, so the consistency is certainly "up".
Road To Tomorrow is my crowning jewel, I think.
Doc, Bringer Of Scotch
John Misrahi
Reelin in the years is on 'Cant buy a thrill', not Countdown
Steve2000indeja
>) wrote:
>> I think one of the perks for Becker and Fagen breaking up the band was to
>get
>>to use A List session drummers. Jim Hodder was adequate and he was willing
>to
>>commit to the Steely Dan band project, but they were using guys like Jeff
>>Porcaro before the band was even dissolved, i think.
>>
>
>I just recently began listening to Countdown To Ecstasy. First time,
>really. Not sure why, I've had the Citizen Box Set for years now,
>just kinda never did. In any event, I absolutely love it.
It took me a couple of months of listening to CBAT in 1973 to 'get it/them.' I
was a kid into hard rock at the time. Once I got what Steely Dan was up to, I
was a lifelong fan. I wore out each new release as the kept coming and just
kept getting better..
>Every second, save Reelin', which I usually skip. I like the tune, but the
>guital soloing/tone of Elliot Randalllll kills me. Plus I've heard
>it many a time. In any event, one of the things that struck me about
>the first album was Hodder. Very solid, and very well composed ideas
>and melodys. And he's the drummer! bah. I think he was terrific,
>and it's too bad, IMO, that he didn't stay on longer.
>
Jim was fine. I enjoy the first 3 albums a lot. Who knows how hard it was to
get the basics they wanted with the band on those records?.. maybe not that
hard at all.
The first two records are sort of 'the Steely Dan debut parts 1 and 2', imo-
the band playing the best of the initial batch of tunes with 'Countdown'
having the benefit of them playing out live before recording it. The composers
were developing their music and style with Pretzel Logic. They did bring
Porcaro during the end of the band era for sessions and touring.
I was speculating that their going into session player mode- as opposed to
'band' mode-suited Fagen and Becker in a lot of ways. The famous 'no more
touring pressure' being at the top of the list. But also being able to call in
session guys without any 'band drama' happening in the studio because a primary
player such as their regular drummer, wasn't being used on a certain track.
As their 70s discography eventually showed, they used many different drummers
as they cast the session players to fit the tunes. And as the Steely Dan legend
and lore has it, there were many configurations of session players who's work
on some tunes didn't make the final cut...not to mention the guitar solos:)
Fagen and Becker wanted or needed the freedom to try things out. In the band
days they were pretty much locked into using those particular players with the
occasional guest. By Pretzel Logic they had brought in wunderkind Jeff Porcaro
on some cuts.
By Royal Scam they discovered the wonders of Bernard Purdie (and Larry
Carlton). By Aja, they were downplaying Bernard (and Larry) some and added Rick
Marrotta and Steve Gadd... etc. etc
It cost em a lot in session bux, but the results were astounding.
>>Roger Nichols invented "Wendel" - a steady (8 bit)? computer program/drum
>>machine which first surfaced on "Gaucho" and began (arguably) their era of
>drum
>>machine sounding rhythm tracks. To me this is not a negative thing. It's
>just
>>what it is.
>>
>
>Roger has talked extensively about the WENDELS on his forum. WENDEL
>Jr., used on Gaucho, was 12-bit. WENDEL II, used on Nightfly, was 16.
>Same function, I believe.
>
>
>>Check it out- many of the great songs on Gaucho and Nightfly have a
>>machine/strict tempo feel to them. I seem to recall reading once that they
>made
>>it a point to credit the human session drummers on Gaucho, even if the
>>drums/tempos were mainly done by Wendell on a track. Wendel did get credits
>too,
>>I believe.
>>
>
>Best I can tell, the WENDELL replaced the drummers incoming signal
>with the digital sample. Thus the ahead-of-its-time clarity and
>spacing of the drums and cymbals. No mic bleed, which is a big plus
>in many recording situations. I like using a real snare and cymbals,
>and a digital kit for kick and toms. Makes my humble project studio
>seem less humble. hehe I'm still not clear on what sort of tempo
>control the WENDELS had, if any.
Aha. Had read of their frustration with feels/tempos and assumed the Wendels
were full on drum machines. Your info explains the super cleanness of the drums
on much of Gaucho.
Still, some rhythm tracks from that album and The Nightfly seem a bit (16 bit
apparently:) machine-ish. Again, this is not a bad thing to me. The recordings
and music continued to evolve yet still be cut from steely cloth. I feel this
way about Kama and 2VN as well.
>
>On another hand entirely, for any Bad Jazz fans in the room
>*cough Steve cough* , I should have a site up soon. Creepy Ryan
>is moving, and as soon as he gets set up, I'll design a little page
>and post what I've been up to. My methods have a certain defined
>shape I didn't have before, so the consistency is certainly "up".
>Road To Tomorrow is my crowning jewel, I think.
>
>
>Doc, Bringer Of Scotch
>
Am heading over to Mp3.com now. Let us (or me) know when the site goes up.
Steve
DrDiamond, Scourge Of The Sober
<lmoukhi...@sprint.ca> wrote:
>
>Reelin in the years is on 'Cant buy a thrill', not Countdown
>
>
>>>
>>
>>I just recently began listening to Countdown To Ecstasy. First time,
>>really. Not sure why, I've had the Citizen Box Set for years now,
>>just kinda never did. In any event, I absolutely love it. Every
>>second, save Reelin', which I usually skip. I like the tune, but the
>>guital soloing/tone of Elliot Randalllll kills me. Plus I've heard
>>it many a time. In any event, one of the things that struck me about
>>the first album was Hodder. Very solid, and very well composed ideas
>>and melodys. And he's the drummer! bah. I think he was terrific,
>>and it's too bad, IMO, that he didn't stay on longer.
>>
>>
>>
Doh!
My fault. I forgot the album arrangement. I typically use the Box
set cds in my car, as it's all the first 7 albums on 4 cds. So I
forget album titles.
John Misrahi
It happens to all of us. Anyhoo, they are great songs, however you divvy
them up!
john
Simon Tilley
However skilled and experienced the drummer, the chances of them staying
exactly in sync and to tempo, for the duration of an entire track, are very
slim. If the drummer lays down the initial track and sets the pace for all
the subsequent players to follow then it is sometimes desireable that there
are "subtle" changes in tempo - perhaps to "lift" the track in places. This
would probably be a sub-conscious effect of the "feel" that particular
musician imparts to a track.
However, if the artist has to stay precision synced for, say, an arpegio
synth part or video cues, they would have no alternative but to play to
click. People like Purdie, Porcaro (sadly missed), Steve Gadd etc. will
doubtless list the ability to "play to click" as one of their many
strengths.
"Nat and Al Enquirer" <"Nat_and_Al_Enquirer*YOUR SHOES*"@att.net> wrote in
message news:jxrI9.42427$vM1.3...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...