budget saxophones to use for study?
genericaudioperson
I am an experienced musician looking into acquiring an alto saxophone
for study purposes. To save money, I'm not expecting fantastic tone
and projection. But I do want to avoid pads that escape air, etc.
Basically something I can learn how to locate the notes and produce
basic tones.
Saxophones can get expensive quickly. But I do see a number of models
around $400-500 at Musician's Friend. Two brands are Kohlert and
Prelude in the budget category. Is there a budget brand out there
(sub $500) that is reliable enough for basic study?
With guitars, you can get a completely reasonable guitar for $200. If
that were only true with saxophones!
ansermetniac
Used Yamaha. You cannot study and learn on cheap saxophones. No one
can make a good saxophone for low money. Impossible. Not even with
slave labor. Too many keys , etc.
And when you want to sell it, you can't
Some bargain, huh?
Abbedd
Chief Engineer
The Dave Guardala Companies
Stephen Howard
<genericau...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Hello,
>
>I am an experienced musician looking into acquiring an alto saxophone
>for study purposes. To save money, I'm not expecting fantastic tone
>and projection. But I do want to avoid pads that escape air, etc.
>Basically something I can learn how to locate the notes and produce
>basic tones.
>
>Saxophones can get expensive quickly. But I do see a number of models
>around $400-500 at Musician's Friend. Two brands are Kohlert and
>Prelude in the budget category. Is there a budget brand out there
>(sub $500) that is reliable enough for basic study?
Quite a few - the biggest problem is finding the good ones out of the
many brands on the market.
The Prelude isn't too bad, and is available worldwide. Largo, an
Australian brand, can be bought via ebay and is a decent horn for the
money.
You might be rather surprised at the tone and projection these
Ultra-Cheap horns are capable of...some of the slightly more expensive
versions compare extremely well to horns costing four or five times as
much.
>
>With guitars, you can get a completely reasonable guitar for $200. If
>that were only true with saxophones!
I had a client bring in a Bently horn, which he picked up for
£100...which equates to $200. It was a very nice budget horn...but I
don't believe the price was typical. Double that is about right...and
you'd be wise to add on a few quid for a decent mouthpiece and a
professional tweak...but you'd still come in way, way under the sort
of prices you might have paid for an indifferent student horn a few
years ago.
Regards,
--
Stephen Howard - Woodwind repairs & period restorations
http://www.shwoodwind.co.uk
Emails to: showard{who is at}shwoodwind{dot}co{dot}uk
ansermetniac
Keep in mind that one opinion is from a player and one from a very
sucessful design and manufacturing engineer
That is how it goes on usenet. Everybody is an expert. Choose your
advice based upon this
Buy a used Yamaha. At least you can resell it, easily
Abbedd
Hawkin...@gmail.com
company?
jbt...@yahoo.com
> Keep in mind that one opinion is from a player and one from a very
> sucessful design and manufacturing engineer
>
> That is how it goes on usenet. Everybody is an expert. Choose your
> advice based upon this
>
> Buy a used Yamaha. At least you can resell it, easily
>
> Abbedd
Since he is too modest to say this himself (unlike others on this and
other saxophone forums) I will say this on his behalf. Stephen Howard
is one of the most respected saxophonists and repair techs in the
U.K. A quick look at the detail and depth of information he has
posted on his website: http://www.shwoodwind.co.uk/ should dispel any
doubt of his stellar qualifications to give advice in this area.
Since Stephen continues to enjoy a highly successful career actually
playing saxophones, repairing saxophones and evaluating saxophones of
all makes and models, his advice has always been a valuable and
welcome addition to this forum.
John
ansermetniac
That may be so. Do you know the difference between a technician and an
engineer. I do. Do you know the difference between and an engineer and
a chief engineer? I do.
As Pete Thomas agreed, anybody can put up a website
And since you vouched for Mr. Howard , it leaves me one question. Who
will vouch for you?
To the op--Mr. Talcott spends his time trying in vain to discredit
industry members and giants, to boost his self believed expertise.
Keep that in mind when you accept his advice.
I still say buy a good used Yamaha
Abbedd
Design, Manufacturing, Acoustical Engineer
Stephen Howard
Your comments are much appreciated, but I'm more than happy for the
newsgroup archives to speak for themselves - it's more revealing and
much less disruptive.
jbt...@yahoo.com
> Your comments are much appreciated, but I'm more than happy for the
> newsgroup archives to speak for themselves - it's more revealing and
> much less disruptive.
>
> Regards,
>
> --
> Emails to: showard{who is at}shwoodwind{dot}co{dot}uk
Obviously.
Pete Thomas
>
> That may be so. Do you know the difference between a technician and an
> engineer. I do. Do you know the difference between and an engineer and
> a chief engineer? I do.
I think most people do, but sometimes the distinction can get very
blurred, especially when the technician in question is also an engineer
capable of designing and creating, and restoring instruments or parts of
instruments which is often the case with top saxophone technicians.
But that is really beside the point. A good saxophone technician gets to
test play more saxophones than most people, and many more than most
chief engineers, so his opinion in this particular question is extremely
valid.
>
> As Pete Thomas agreed, anybody can put up a website
True, anyone with the knowledge and wherewithal of how to do it, but
very few can build one as useful and informative for saxophone players
as Stephen Howard's
> I still say buy a good used Yamaha
I would have said that before I test played many very inexpensive
Chinese saxophones myself and compared them side by sided with
established top brands such as Yamaha and Selmer, I an pleasantly
surprised to say that the old marketing hype "You get what you pay for",
is now , well, just hype. I have used a very inexpensive Chinese
instrument for TV recording sessions recently - no problem.
I'm not saying a very cheap instrument is now as good as the top end
ones, but the differential is nowhere near what it was. The Prelude is
not bad at all, and of course, buying secondhand can be risky for a
novice who may not know a good one from something needing extensive and
costly repair work
Best Regards
--
Pete Thomas
On-line saxophone exercises, download PDFs, jazz theory, Saxophone
Instruction DVD. Site & contact: www.petethomas.co.uk
Steve Marshall
"genericaudioperson" <genericau...@hotmail.com> wrote
> Saxophones can get expensive quickly. But I do see a number of models
> around $400-500 at Musician's Friend. Two brands are Kohlert and
> Prelude in the budget category. Is there a budget brand out there
> (sub $500) that is reliable enough for basic study?
I wouldn't go for a Prelude. They aren't very good. There are loads of cheap
Chinese and a lot aren't great. Some are worth buying but with models
rapidly changing it's hard to make recommendations.
A good second hand Taiwanese horn are the best bet. (Elkhart series II/
Deluxe, Yamaha, Trevor James 'The Horn', Jupiter 767). Elkharts are going
for around £150 ($300) on Ebay. If you go for one of the newer ones (back
case with curved corners) it's less likely to have much wear.
Steve M
Steve Marshall
"ansermetniac" <anserm...@hotmail.com> wrote
> That may be so. Do you know the difference between a technician and an
> engineer. I do. Do you know the difference between and an engineer and
> a chief engineer? I do.
Yeah. The tech guy isn't barking mad.
What's the difference between an engineer and an ex-engineer?
Steve M
ansermetniac
Go shellac a pad and stop huffing the shellac. It is making you live
out your fantasy world on usenet
Abbedd
Stephen Howard
Have you seen a Prelude lately?
You alerted me to some pretty awful build issues way back, and in
subsequent examples I found exactly what you mentioned...but in the
last year or so all the Preludes I've seen have been pretty much bang
on.
I'd be surprised if the quality has dropped as the Preludes come out
of the one factory.
Steve Marshall
"Stephen Howard" <sees...@email.uk> wrote
> Have you seen a Prelude lately?
> You alerted me to some pretty awful build issues way back, and in
> subsequent examples I found exactly what you mentioned...but in the
> last year or so all the Preludes I've seen have been pretty much bang
> on.
> I'd be surprised if the quality has dropped as the Preludes come out
> of the one factory.
Not for a while. But if they are better then maybe they don't need to bring
them to me.
The other negative is the badge puts the price up, so you can get a
something like the Gear4music for quite a bit less. If the quality has
become better than G4M then I guess they become attractive once more.
Steve M
Steve Marshall
"ansermetniac" <anserm...@hotmail.com> wrote
> Go shellac a pad and stop huffing the shellac. It is making you live
> out your fantasy world on usenet
This is your fantasy though, isn't it? You'll engage with anyone foolish
enough to reply to your rants. I guess thirty or so years of what you've
been huffin' on is well known to cause paranoia. I've tried to get you to
realise that 'they aren't all out to get ya', but you just think everyone
wants to knock you down. Sad really.
Steve M
Steve Marshall
"Steve Marshall" <s...@atmosBlockA.plus.com> wrote
> A If you go for one of the newer ones (back case with curved corners) it's
> less likely to have much wear.
Oops - that should be 'black case'.
Steve M
ansermetniac
>\
You haven't a clue. I try to protect the ones who want to learn from
those who are living out their fantasy world on the internet that have
NO expertise yet pontificate like they do.
STFU already
Abbedd
Stephen Howard
<s...@atmosBlockA.plus.com> wrote:
>
>"Stephen Howard" <sees...@email.uk> wrote
>
>> Have you seen a Prelude lately?
>> You alerted me to some pretty awful build issues way back, and in
>> subsequent examples I found exactly what you mentioned...but in the
>> last year or so all the Preludes I've seen have been pretty much bang
>> on.
>> I'd be surprised if the quality has dropped as the Preludes come out
>> of the one factory.
>
>Not for a while. But if they are better then maybe they don't need to bring
>them to me.
That's probably the case. I tend to see them because people ask me for
a recommendation and, assuming they're close enough, I suggest
bringing the horn in for a 'once over' just in case.
>
>The other negative is the badge puts the price up, so you can get a
>something like the Gear4music for quite a bit less. If the quality has
>become better than G4M then I guess they become attractive once more.
The Prelude alto is just £20 more than the G4M...so it's not too big a
price difference....and both horns are substantially cheaper than the
basic Jupiter.
It's the price you pay for being able to buy them on a worldwide basis
from general music shops. It's also the price you pay for continuity -
the assurance that it's the same model from the same factory as last
year's model.
A few other brands are made in this way ( Walstein, Academy and Largo,
for example ) - some sellers have cottoned onto the idea that's it's
better to work with a single factory to improve the line rather than
tout around for the best price.
The market is settling down somewhat, and conscientious dealers are
finding that they now have to wait a little while for the better
manufacturers to produce their stock ( due to demand and waiting lists
), leaving the chancers to deal with the ever-decreasing number of
factories who'll just chuck out any old rubbish
Stephen Howard
<s...@atmosBlockA.plus.com> wrote:
>
>"ansermetniac" <anserm...@hotmail.com> wrote
>
>> Go shellac a pad and stop huffing the shellac. It is making you live
>> out your fantasy world on usenet
>
>This is your fantasy though, isn't it? You'll engage with anyone foolish
>enough to reply to your rants.
Nail...head...hit...
Satis verborum.
ansermetniac
<sees...@email.uk> wrote:
>On Wed, 18 Jun 2008 00:11:22 +0100, "Steve Marshall"
><s...@atmosBlockA.plus.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>"ansermetniac" <anserm...@hotmail.com> wrote
>>
>>> Go shellac a pad and stop huffing the shellac. It is making you live
>>> out your fantasy world on usenet
>>
>>This is your fantasy though, isn't it? You'll engage with anyone foolish
>>enough to reply to your rants.
>
>Nail...head...hit...
>
>Satis verborum.
>
>Regards,
Agreeing with trolls is good for your reputation--with trolls
Abbedd
Nick Jones
in the Chinese musical instrument factories? I very much doubt that this
is an issue for e.g. G4M and their colleagues, but I notice that Hanson
(IIRC) say that they haev ethical agreements with their suppliers.
Anyone know any more?
And BTW, what do people like Steve and Stephen think of Hansons?
Nick
Stephen Howard
On the whole, in this industry at least, they're pretty good. A
colleague of mine visited a couple of factories last year and came
away with a very good impression ( lots of good photos too - the
individual workbays look cleaner and tidier than my own setup! ).
I expect that some factories are better than others, and that probably
translates into better products and tighter quality control.
In some cases work is done on a 'piece-time' basis - with homeworkers
collecting raw materials, finishing or assembling them at home and
returning them to the plant ( it might surprise you to learn that
Chinese horns are largely hand-built! ). In this respect you could
consider them to be slightly ahead of us.
You don't really need an ethical agreement, market forces are very
much in play and if conditions in one factory are poor then the next
factory is often right next door. People walk, and stay where the
conditions and rates of pay are good.
It might be worse in other industries - workers in this genre have the
advantage of being at least semi-skilled, which makes them valuable.
Hansons? They're OK...a bit pricey for what you get, I feel.
Regards,
--
Stephen Howard - Woodwind repairs & period restorations
Pete Thomas
> Just interested - does anyone know anything about the labour conditions
> in the Chinese musical instrument factories?
A good question.
I have heard that conditions are good in many/most Chinese factories,
though I'm sure there are some pockets of dodgy ones. There are
sweatshops in most countries, including theUK and US, but usually these
rely on illegal immigrants and people traffickers in order to keep their
"captive" workforce.
I think the manufacturers who take a pride in good quality products
(e.g. the good Chinese instruments) know that a poorly treated workforce
is not good for quality production.
I very much doubt that this
> is an issue for e.g. G4M and their colleagues,
You probably mean G4M and their competitors...
I think might probably is an issue, if not on ethical grounds then at
least on good commercial grounds. It would be bad for sales if it became
public that their products were the result of slave labour. (As happens
from time to time when media gets wind of "sweatshops", whether in 1st
or 3rd world countries.
On a slightly different note, I was talking to a Chinese factory owner,
it seems that any new or upgraded factories have to comply with very
stringent pollution regulations. This can only be a good thing IMO, even
if it means prices may rise. It shows the Chinese government care (about
their world trade if not the environment).
Nick Jones
nick
Pete Thomas
> Thanks for these responses. Pete, are you still happy with your Hanson?
>
I did not keep the Hanson, it was a beautiful sounding tenor, but I had
a one or two very specific problems with it on one altissimo note. I
returned it and kept meaning to go back and choose another one but never
yet got round to it.
The baritone I borrowed was excellent - very highly rated also by me
friend Roger Lewis of the Dirty Dozen.
I use a Walstein soprano which I find brilliant, even for some of the TV
recording sessions I'm doing.
Steve Marshall
"Nick Jones" <nickan...@byebyespam.tiscali.co.uk> wrote
> And BTW, what do people like Steve and Stephen think of Hansons?
Hanson tend to be somewhat cagey about revealing where their instruments are
made and used the dubious badge "Hanson Made in England" on instruments that
were most likely not made in England. They have claimed to assemble
instrument here but they also claimed the silver degrading on ebonite
clarinets was due to a 'chemical spillage', so I doubt their claims.
The horns I've seen seem to be pretty standard fair with a bit extra in the
way of engraving or that fake antique look which seems popular. They seem OK
but I think it's well worth shopping around and looking at other options.
Steve M
Lance Hoopes
One completely mad and off the wall idiot versus three highly
respected saxophonists and repair guys and the idiot comes out on the
losing end every time. Thanks to Stephen and Steve, especially, for
being willing on a regular basis, to share their expertise and time
with the members of this forum who actually want information and not
to engage in the rants and idiocy of the constant thorn that it's
impossible to get rid of.
How many of the readers remember, as I do, the lengthy, informative
post of Stephen's after last year's industry show where he came back
and reported fully and very completely on what he found there. How
can we possibly compare his excellence and expertise along with his
willingness to spend his time keeping us informed while simultaneously
dodging soft ball slurs by the likes of the mental case interloper who
wants only to somehow build his personal measly and tiny little ego by
cutting down the real experts in the field.
Thanks Stephen and Steve for sharing all your expertise and time with
those of us who really want inforrmation. We appreciate you and your
efforts very much. Please hang in there and continue to ignore the
rants of the idiot abbedd or ansermatic or whatever he calls himself
this week. Those of us in the USA know what an engineer is. We have
a whole army corps of them that can fuck up any job we give them while
making it sound like they know something. Witness the "levies" of New
Orleans and multiple dams all over the mid west (Iowa and surrounding
states) where flooding is currently wiping out the infrastructure.
I rant and I hate myself for it. Thanks guys and please keep
providing your vast expertise to the information seekers.
Lance (my real name) from Arizona
ansermetniac
<lan...@gmail.com> wrote:
>One completely mad and off the wall idiot
If you are refering to me, please know that I had my own line of
Saxophones in which I was Chief Engineer, that sold very very very
well.
>versus three highly
>respected saxophonists and repair guys
You are so naive and ignorant it is funny
Thanks for the laugh
Abbedd
Steve Marshall
"Lance Hoopes" <lan...@gmail.com> wrote
> Thanks Stephen and Steve for sharing all your expertise and time with
> those of us who really want inforrmation. We appreciate you and your
> efforts very much.
Cheers Lance. My experience of Usenet has been that to get something from it
different people need to add something to the melting pot. I never claim to
be an expert but do have some training and experience so feel able to pass
on my opinion from time to time. I do get stuff wrong and it's through
others chipping in which helps get to the facts.
When you get trained at college you learn a lot of technical stuff, but they
tend not to give you the sort of information people build up over years. We
don't get a handbook on manufacturers, designers and players. Just like
others with an interest we have to keep looking around and picking up what
information we can. That's why it's always useful for others to chip in.
Stephen has done more than most to answer queries and help those trying to
get to grips with this music thing. His efforts are laudable. The efforts of
(certain) others seem to be to intimidate people and cause upset. I know
which I prefer !
Steve M
ansermetniac
<s...@atmosBlockA.plus.com> wrote:
>I never claim to
>be an expert
Henny Youngman lives
Abbedd
________________________
Please judge me by the enemies I make
F.D.R.
Lance Hoopes
wrote:
The efforts of
> (certain) others seem to be to intimidate people and cause upset. I know
> which I prefer !
>
> Steve M
I agree 100%, Steve, or should I say Henny?
I have been a repair tech in the states for about 50 years and I have
a certain amoun of experience, but I must admit I'm out of the loop
lately. I truly appreciate you and Stephen and others who try to
provide useful information. I find it really easy to ignore the
idiotic insertions of the joke who seems to be on the group 24/7. No
post goes unanswered by the crazy guy. Must be nice to have that
kind of time. I, personally, have other thigs to do. Please keep
helping people on the group as you always have.
Sincerely,
Lance
Lance in Arizona
saxbetel
In the analog age, there was static.
Static on the radio, static on the tv.
White noise, snow. A vaguely annoying background distraction to the
program at hand.
It should be no surprise to anyone that even in the digital world of
0s and 1s, there's
no escaping static, be it spam, or bugs, or worms, or viruses, or
trolls.
No offense to anyone here, but it comes with the territory.
Saxman
> In the analog age, there was static.
> Static on the radio, static on the tv.
> White noise, snow. A vaguely annoying background distraction to the
> program at hand.
> It should be no surprise to anyone that even in the digital world of
> 0s and 1s, there's
> no escaping static, be it spam, or bugs, or worms, or viruses, or
> trolls.
> No offense to anyone here, but it comes with the territory.
Something gained, probably means something lost.
Nick Jones
Personally I hate the fake antique look and think Selmer did themselves
and the industry a disfavour by introducing it. Only my opinion.
nick
Nick Jones
Not a hostile question, just interested: are you formally endorsing
Walstein? Just that their website links to yours?
thanks
nick
Pete Thomas
> Pete -
>
> Not a hostile question, just interested: are you formally endorsing
> Walstein? Just that their website links to yours?
Not at all. I am not an endorser of any product, ie I have no
agreement, official or unofficial, to endorse any product and that is
the way I want it to be so that any information or recommendations I
make can be viewed as independent and impartial.
They probably link because I bought a soprano from them and mention on
my site that I use it. I'm merely a satisfied customer.
Anyone can link to my website, I have no problem with that. Well when I
say anyone can, I don't mind as long as the link is relevant. I would
not want any links from porn or gambling sites.
Nick Jones
nick
Lutemann
Take my advice for what it's worth. The most expensive aspect of
learning an instrument is your time, not the cost of an instrument or
lessons.. Buy a good instrument to start with and it will save you
money - and you will enjoy it more.
Pete Thomas
> Take my advice for what it's worth. The most expensive aspect of
> learning an instrument is your time, not the cost of an instrument or
> lessons.. Buy a good instrument to start with and it will save you
> money - and you will enjoy it more.
Yes, exactly what I do.
Stephen Howard
wrote:
>On Jun 18, 11:13?am, Pete Thomas <inva...@reply-via-site.com> wrote:
>> Nick Jones wrote:
>> > Thanks for these responses. Pete, are you still happy with your Hanson?
>>
>> I did not keep the Hanson, it was a beautiful sounding tenor, but I had
>> a one or two very specific problems with it on one altissimo note. I
>> returned it and kept meaning to go back and choose another one but never
>> yet got round to it.
>>
>> The baritone I borrowed was excellent - very highly rated also by me
>> friend Roger Lewis of the Dirty Dozen.
>>
>> I use a Walstein soprano which I find brilliant, even for some of the TV
>> recording sessions I'm doing.
>>
>
>Take my advice for what it's worth. The most expensive aspect of
>learning an instrument is your time, not the cost of an instrument or
>lessons.. Buy a good instrument to start with and it will save you
>money - and you will enjoy it more.
Ah, but which one to buy?
The 'buy it big, buy it once' approach only works from an economical
standpoint if you're lucky enough to get the horn you continue to like
throughout your playing life.
And, of course, you have to have the initial capital.
Regards,
--
Stephen Howard - Woodwind repairs & period restorations