I need to find the history of this rare(?) saxophone. ALCAZAR

[RainLover]

Hey everyone,

I've never been in this newsgroup before, but I think SOMEONE here may
be able to help me out.

I have a mysterious Saxophone.

It's an ALCAZAR, made in Elkhart, Ind. The best I've been able to
find after 2 weeks searching online is the following...

Made by the Williams Brothers in the late 20's / early 30's.

The Conn Sax company had the Brothers do some retooling for them in
the twentys, and the brothers thought it would be a good idea to make
second copy of the tooling for themselves.

A small handful of "Alcazar" CORNETS are known to exist, but I can't
find any information on their SAX.

Anyone? ANYTHING????

Pleaseandthankyou,

James, Seattle, Washington, USA, Earth

IF EMAILING ME, PLEASE TAKE THE 'remove-' OUT OF MY REPLY ADDRESS
(it's a spam-trap)

www.jameskelseystudios.com

[P. Tung]

James,

Could you please tell us where you got your information, below?

I've never heard of this practice -- a company allowing its tooling to be
copied by another, so that the other could release goods effectively copying
the original. It seems to me both unlikely and fodder for a lawsuit, even
back in those days.

If your horn appears to be made by Conn, most likely, it is.

If you can post pictures, there are more than a few people on this board who
can likely determine who manufactured that horn.

-luck-

"RainLover" <remove-r...@raincity.com> wrote in message
news:n7kf3vs0b8dmsstu3...@4ax.com...

[RainLover]

Hello Luck,

I got the information about "Alcazar" from an Elkhart County Public
Library information specialist.

I agree about the illegality of this story, but it appears to be what
happened, and I'm SURE that CONN did not authorize or even know about
the copied tooling that the Williams Brothers made for themselves.

The "Williams Brothers" seem to have a long, long history of criminal
activity and shady deals from what I could gather about them. The
actually changed their company name and product every few years from
the 1890's to the 1960's.

A VERY odd coincidence about these brothers.... about the same time
(1910's - 20's) in another state ANOTHER company formed as 'the
williams brothers' ... that's odd, but what's interesting, is this
"OTHER" company is still around... their most recent activity?? They
are one of the main energy companies involved with the west coast
energy rip off fiasco last year.

I asked a public relations person with the new 'williams company', and
(of course) there is no history of them ever making musical
instruments, which makes sense since whoever made the "Alcazar"
cornets and saxophones stole the tooling from CONN.

I would LOVE to find out more, but no expert (university or otherwise)
has been able to offer more information on the history of the Alcazar.

James Kelsey, Seattle, Washington, USA, Earth

www.jameskelseystudios.com

LEGAL DISCLAIMER:
The new company of "Williams Companies" may not have any tie to the
other 'williams brothers' company and I didn't mean to imply there is
a positive connection, it may just be a coincidence.

[P. Tung]

*lol*

Are you sure that model was not the AlcaTRAZ, James?

Thanks for giving the cite.

"RainLover" <remove-r...@raincity.com> wrote in message

news:j58t3vorqa8a4an7l...@4ax.com...

[whee...@gmail.com]

SAME SITUATION HERE,JAMES. THE SAXOPHONE I HAVE IS AN ALCAZAR MADE IN ELKHART, INDIANA. PATENTED SEPT. 14, 1915 SERIAL NUMBER 1153489 WITH AN ADDITIONAL MARKING OF THE LETTER A OVER 4946 OVER L. IT IS IN A HARD CASE WITH A METAL PLATE IDENTIFYING IT AS MADE BY 'YORK'

HAVE NO IDEA WHAT ANY OF THIS MEANS, BUT IF YOU ARE ABLE TO GAIN INFORMATION, IT WOULD CERTAINLY BE WELCOME HERE.

MY NAME IS GEORGE REED email whee...@gmail.com

[Steve Grover]

George,
What you have is a Conn sax. The serial number you quote is actually a patent number, likely the one held by Haynes for the (then) new method of drawing out tone holes from the body of the sax rather than soldered tone holes.

York did not make their own instruments... at least not for long. They contracted everything out. So your sax is actually a Conn stencil. They made the horn, stamped it with their standard patent and serial number info. The A stands for Alto, the L stands for low pitch. This was made before they started using a separate serial number system for stenciled horns. The serial number is 4946 which places production in 1901. Back then they had ONLY straight tone holes. This MIGHT be before they started using pearls for finger touches. Very early horns would just be metal with nickel, silver, or gold plating depending on what finish they put on the sax. This was long before anybody ever started using lacquer.