I will Never buy a Cannonball
George Orwell
NEVER buy, or play, a Cannonball sax.
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Gomez
> On Aug 22, 11:47 pm, jbtsax <jbt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > On Aug 22, 7:29 pm, George Orwell <nob...@mixmaster.it> wrote:
>
> > > After trying to read this NG for several months I have decided that I will
> > > NEVER buy, or play, a Cannonball sax.
>
>
> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyaHzeSdWIY
>
> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEzAPtUdw70
>
> Did Tevis say the finish affected the sound in this vid I think he
> did?
>
> Has he claimed that resonance stones on the neck and keytouches affect
> the intonation and sound of a sax? I think he has applied for a patent
> for the same.
Pure and unrepentant snake oil! Only one of two truths emerge from
the video, neither of which is attractive:
1. Either he believes his own bullshit in which case he needs
psychiatric help and any product he endorses is highly suspect, or,
2, He's lying and you could never trust any endorsement he makes,
ever.
For me it's: LIAR, LIAR, PANTS ON FIRE!
A real shame because the saxophones are some of Houli's best. I know
because I have a "Stone Big Bell" but it ain't got no stupid stones on
it, it ain't got no stupid "Brute" finish and it says Phil Barone -
Vintage on the bell.
Same horn, made same shop but without the $1,500 worth of BULLSHIT!
Gomez
Gomez
> made in their own facility which doesn't make saxophones for any other
> brand. The same is true for the models of Mauriat that are made in
> the plant that they own. Both Cannonball and Mauriat design
> saxophones and build them to their own exact specifications such as
> bell size, bore size, and taper. Phil Barone just gets "off the
> shelf" saxophones has Phil Barone engraved on the bell. If Elmer Fudd
> ordered 10 or 20 at a time they would say Elmer Fudd on the bell.
> When you get a Phil Barone saxophone, you are basically buying a
> generic Taiwanese saxophone trusting in Phil's name and reputation.
>
> According to some of Phil's statements on SOTW in the past he doesn't
> even know which company makes the "Phil Barone" saxophones let alone
> which brands his are the same as his. Of course he sells the saxes
> with his name engraved on them for less, but you get less as well when
> compared to the brands that actually have a company to back up their
> instruments instead of just a "broker".- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Sorry jbt, and with all respect, but Cannonballs are repeatedly made
in the same facility, however, it is not their facility nor is it
dedicated to their production only. And, other than finish, they are
"off the shelf" horns so far as the body, crook, bell and keywork is
concerned.
This whole Houli saxophone thing is a giant crock of shit and needs
dumping out. In the spirit of discovering and publishing the truth in
what appears to be a liar's industry, I suggest that we standardize
what we would accept as definitive evidence of the similarities and
differences of the Houli saxes. From such a study we would seek to
establish how they are different and what, if any, features of
individual stencil companies are actually unique to their horns.
I'm even prepared to go to Taiwan and video/audio tape the situation
on the ground and/or purchase a Barone, a Cannonball and a P Mauriat
to tear down, measure and photograph in detail. The latter is probably
as definitive as the former and a hell of a lot cheaper since the
horns can be re-sold.
So the question is, what would everyone accept as evidence of the
origin of various purveyors instruments?
Gomez
Gomez
>
> - Show quoted text -
OK, I'll start.
I'll be satisfied as to the sameness or difference in Taiwanese
saxophones if they are disassembled and compared as to:
Diameter of tenon neck receiver.
Length of body
Diameter of body at specific stations.
Body taper
Diameter and placement of tone holes.
Radius of crook.
Diameter of bell and angle.
Construction of keywork
Shape of key touches
Design of octave key mechanism and G key shift design.
General layout of the keywork system.
Style of engraving
Neck octave key design.
These thing basically define a saxophone more than gluing rocks on the
keys to make it sound better. I mean, common now, that don't come near
passing the smell test.
Gomez
Gomez
> know. I'm not going to waste my time arguing with you about something
> you know nothing about. If you want to do all those things you
> mentioned to find out the truth, then knock yourself out. Have a good
> day.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Well, you certainly have your right to your opinion. I just don't
understand why you have to get snotty about it. You offer no proof or
verifiable facts, no photos of a "Cannonball factory" (and there are
none on their web site either, if I owned a factory in Taiwan I'd
certainly be proud of it), no comparisons, nada.
You sound like a Cannonball owner who doesn't want his pride of
ownership tampered with. I have and play a Barone. I have no such
illusions of superior quality to any other Houli horn. My Barone
Vintage (Cannonball big bell so far as I can tell) is a wonderful
playing horn and I am tickled silly with it. I have a Vintage in
silver plate coming next month and I just hope it plays as good as
this unlacquered one. I don't need it but am getting it just for bling
value.
Surely, your time is your own to spend as you see fit. If you don't
want to engage in a fact based query then, oke doke. I was merely
suggesting a compromise to set up a test to validate some of the
claims that are tossed around on this and other DG's.
For reasons of my own, I have real heartburn with these Taiwanese
importers who pump up their instruments to be something they are not.
P Mauriat is the worst, in my opinion, and I see them as absolute
charlatans. Their insinuation of French origin is insulting to anyone
who has a brain. Personally, I'd love to blow the lid off the whole
can of worms and expose each and every one of the sellers for what
they are. lt's probably a lost cause and I argue to myself, why care.
If I know the truth and if I am not in danger of falling for their
scams, then why bother. It's a good argument.
I just feel for the hypothetical kid who walks into a mid-western
music store and sees this beautiful P Mauriat on the wall. When he
asks where it's made the salesperson says, "France I think" and he
uses all the money he has and can borrow from his parents to buy it.
When he hits he big university music department and pulls it out on
the first day of ensemble or jazz lab, a couple of other kids look
over the necks of their Selmers and say "Taiwanese horn huh". He
responds that it was made in Paris like it says on the bell and is
laughed out of the room.
Purely hypothetical and fantasy I know, a fiction made up to make my
point, but it probably has happened and will happen again. Just saying
"Caveat Emptor" doesn't get it with people of limited means who get
taken by these jerks. If I could figure out a way, I'd expose them,
just for the satisfaction of seeing the right thing done.
But, like I said, it'll probably never happen.
Relax, I'm really not trying to start a fight,
Gomez
saxxsymbol
> http://www.cannonballmusic.com/saxmade.php
John is not interested in facts that don't fit his vision of the
world. The fact is, Cannonball was started by buying off the shelf
Taiwan horns and adding a bigger bell. Their first models, as much as
they were hyped, were not very good. If John thinks that any horn made
in Taiwan will not be shared and copied by other manufacturers, in
some cases the same employees working in another shop, then he is
mistaken. Everything is shared over there. Technology, management,
labor. Innovations are copied, bores and tapers copied, keyworked is
shared. They work together to succeed together. Most Taiwan horns are
SA 80 I or II copies anyway. Almost all are copies of some Selmer or
another. While they knock Selmer over their pricing they copy Selmer's
engineering and take advantage of their research and development.
I think the reason SG tries to hide where his horns are made is
beacuse he knows someone like phil b will contact the factory and have
some of the same horns made for him at reduced prices without some of
the bling and lose sales. There is no copyright protection over
there.
So it is entirely possible to have a PB horn that is exactly like a
cannonball and made by the same folks, with same parts,just assembled
at a different location.
Gomez
> Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the
> difference. ---Mark Twain
>
> 'Tis better to be silent and be thought a fool, than to post on a
> discussion forum and remove all doubt. ---Abraham Lincoln (adapted)
>
> Some would call the above post "misinformation". Other's might call
> it "disinformation". I would just call it "making shit up" to blow
> smoke up your ass.
>
> The self proclaimed expert on Steve Goodson's innovations is now an
> expert on Taiwan saxophone manufacturing. Is there no limit to his
> knowledge and expertise?
Now, why do you feel you have to do that? You don't even give me a
chance to concede the point and you have to be jerk about it.
Notice please that my verbal volleyball with you contains no personal
cuts or flames, yet you instantly go to guns. What is it in you that
makes you do that? I'm trying to carry on a discussion ( hence the
name of these groups) but you seem to think that these groups merely
provide a stage for you to slice and dice at will. In my case, I'm not
a flamer. It's not my style and I don't see the purpose of it here.
Please pick on someone of your own disposition.
As for the picture of the "Cannonball" building, barring a good
Photoshop job, I'll confess that I see a building somewhere in SE Asia
(the Merc and the scooters) but that has I'm afraid absolutely no
impact on or relevance to my questions. In that building there may
only be shipping and packaging facilities. If you expect me to believe
the text, please, this is from a guy who goes on Youtube and describes
how a finish ( which by the way is available all over Houli. They call
it "vintage") affects the tone of the horn. As I said in a previous
post, he's either nuts or a liar, neither of which builds credibility.
I still think the horns have few if any important differences. I also
believe that a Houli "off the shelf" horn is just as high as quality
as any Cannonball or P Mauriat.
And, please get off the personal attack thing. It's most unbecoming.
Tag, You're It,
Gomez
Gomez
Phil Barone? What exactly did he ever do to you, or anybody. You know
of anybody he's cheated, as in not returning a saxophone like he-who-
shall-not-be-named?
Phil is a scrupulously honest guy. Sure, he is sometimes beyond
eccentric but since he is well meaning and, so near as I can tell,
devoid of malice, why beat him up constantly. Is your fealty to your
horn's maker so great that you can't appreciate anyone else?
I bought a Vintage/Mac 8 from him last month and it is an awesome
horn. It's so good that I've ordered another Vintage in silver plate
just for the bling value. Being a Houli big bell tenor, I'm pretty
sure it will play as good as the unlacquered one I have.
And, at least Phil hasn't glued some agate on the keys of a horn and
claimed it helped the tone. I mean, JeezeLouise.
G
ansertmetniac
wrote:
You are one gullible person. Phil steals designs from everybody as he
has no clue what he is doing, and counterfeited my pieces with Sugal.
Stop drinking the kool-aid
Abbedd
Gomez
> Chill Gomez. My post was not directed at you.
We cool.
G
Gomez
> On Mon, 24 Aug 2009 14:49:06 -0700 (PDT), Gomez <go...@komatos.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> >Oh, and one other thing. What is this thing about having a hard on for
> >Phil Barone? What exactly did he ever do to you, or anybody. You know
> >of anybody he's cheated, as in not returning a saxophone like he-who-
> >shall-not-be-named?
>
> >Phil is a scrupulously honest guy. Sure, he is sometimes beyond
> >eccentric but since he is well meaning and, so near as I can tell,
> >devoid of malice, why beat him up constantly. Is your fealty to your
> >horn's maker so great that you can't appreciate anyone else?
>
> >I bought a Vintage/Mac 8 from him last month and it is an awesome
> >horn. It's so good that I've ordered another Vintage in silver plate
> >just for the bling value. Being a Houli big bell tenor, I'm pretty
> >sure it will play as good as the unlacquered one I have.
>
> >And, at least Phil hasn't glued some agate on the keys of a horn and
> >claimed it helped the tone. I mean, JeezeLouise.
>
those?) lets discuss and examine your last blast.
> You are one gullible person.
BUZZZ - ERROR: First, you don't know me, but if you did you would know
me as a suspicous cynic who don't believe anyone until they prove
themselves. Phil has.
> Phil steals designs from everybody
BUZZZ - ERROR: Are any of the "designs" (it's like saying you designed
a rock) patented or even copyrighted? The argumewntrsw fail the test
of theft on their face. Saying that he "paterned his pieces after
other popular pieces" I'll accept. But, didn't the convict steal his
designs from older popular mouthpieces? I'm pretty sure I know what
your answer will be but I'll let that question hang out there for
others.
> as he has no clue what he is doing, and counterfeited my pieces with Sugal.
He's proven time and time again that he does with thousands of happy
sax players.
> Stop drinking the kool-aid
BUZZZ - ERROR: I hate that shit.
Tag You're It,
Gomez
ansertmetniac
wrote:
Gullible or ignorant?
Nice of you to ignore the counterfeiting.
Abbedd
Gomez
>
> - Show quoted text -
Actually we were late in going out to see "Inglourius Basterds" and
then sushi.
But, ignoramus that I surely am, thank you for reminding me.
What is counterfeiting, really? It's a nice term to toss around but
how is Phil guilty of counterfeiting? You guys copied Links, he copied
links. You think his copies are just too much like your copies. Oh my!
You see the difference?
How is copying counterfeiting if you don't claim it to be anything
other than your own?
Fact is, you and the convict had a failed business. I don't blame any
small entrepreneur for failing. It's very hard to make it. Hell, I've
had a couple of failed projects myself. But, the big difference is
that I didn't try to blame anyone else for my failure. How about just
sucking it up, wishing your competitors well and going forward rather
than trying to make a career of blaming others for your failure.
Via con Dios,
Gomez
ansertmetniac
wrote:
>> >> Phil steals designs 锟絝rom everybody
>>
>> >BUZZZ - ERROR: Are any of the "designs" (it's like saying you designed
>> >a rock) patented or even copyrighted? The argumewntrsw fail the test
>> >of theft on their face. Saying that he "paterned his pieces after
>> >other popular pieces" I'll accept. But, didn't the convict steal his
>> >designs from older popular mouthpieces? I'm pretty sure I know what
>> >your answer will be but I'll let that question hang out there for
>> >others.
>>
>> >> 锟絘s he has no clue what he is doing, and counterfeited my pieces with Sugal.
Gullible AND ignorant
Phil sold exact copies with the registered trademarks affixed
Many would like to have a failed business such as mine
Just what alt.music.sax needs-Another brainwashed Barone Soldier
Abbedd
Gomez
> Gullible AND ignorant
>
> Phil sold exact copies with the registered trademarks affixed
>
> Many would like to have a failed business such as mine
>
> Just what alt.music.sax needs-Another brainwashed Barone Soldier
>
Well Abbedd, faced with such a stunningly brilliant repartee, I can
but retreat with wounds. Bravo.
I'll just bet that you were the captain of your university debating
team. A career in law would have much better suited a steel trap like
yours.
But, back on topic, I reckon that there is very little actual
difference in quality amongst the Houli saxophones. The reason is
quite simple. For the most part, they are all made from the same
parts. To be sure, they are assembled in different shops some of which
are proprietary facilities dedicated to one foreign importer. But I
have a feeling that a Houli horn is pretty much a Houli horn.
Based on the Series II style big bell tenor I have with Barone's logo
on it, I wonder if the much more expensive offerings in this country
that are made in those proprietary shops are really of superior
quality. This is not meant to diminish those very successful importers
who have chosen and marketed the various Houli saxes, but rather to
more fully understand this most interesting if startlingly un-American
manufacturing process.
I am certain of this: Cannonball, P Mauriat, Phil Barone,
Saxophone.com, TK Melody and the other successful importers of
Taiwanese saxophones are offering fine instruments comparable to
Selmer or any other major manufacturer. They are damned good horns and
if they're copies of major brand instruments, they may not only be
copies but enhancements of those horns.
If you own one of these Houli instruments regardless of the stencil,
you can be proud of it and rest assured that your talent has a great
voice. If the extra money you may have paid for a certain brand or
model increases your pride of ownership and enjoyment, that's great.
Enjoy. It's actually nobody else's business but yours.
If it has been perceived that I was putting down any Houli made sax I
apologize. I do take issue with some of the marketing strategies of
one or two of the importers but the horns are excellent.
Gomez
saxxsymbol
> Looking at George's, shall we say, "interesting" posts on other
> forums, it is hard to tell if he actually plays any instrument at
> all---let alone the saxophone. The fact of the matter is with people
> like Branford Marsalis and the New Century Sax Quartet buying
> Cannonball saxes, they probably don't need George's business all that
> bad anyhow.
Just changing the title back to the original...............
Should Cannonball clearly mark where their horns are made?
Gomez
> Looking at George's, shall we say, "interesting" posts on other
> forums, it is hard to tell if he actually plays any instrument at
> all---let alone the saxophone. The fact of the matter is with people
> like Branford Marsalis and the New Century Sax Quartet buying
> Cannonball saxes, they probably don't need George's business all that
> bad anyhow.
Sorry to be so ignorant again but amid all these pseudonyms, but, who
is George?
Gomez
saxxsymbol
Thge OP.
Randal Clark
I work for Canonball. I'm the head saxophone acoustic-hand-customizer
here and
I have played and tweeked virtually every alto saxophone and soprano
that has come
out of our factory for the last 6 years.
I wish to correct mis-information about our product, if you will
indulge me.
It is true that in Taiwan there are manufacturers that make for many
different companies.
It is true that many horns from Taiwan are the exact same with a
different name on it.
This is NOT true for Cannonball !!! This is just simply NOT the case.
We have designed our own molds that are proprietary to Cannonball. We
own them!!!
Our bore structure is different, our tone hole sizes and structure is
different, the length and thickness
of our alloy, and our ribbed construction is different, the guage of
metal is different for our bells than other
makers. Our connections of body to bow, the guards, key thickness,
pad heigth, etc..... it goes on and on.
Our horn is completely unique and not produced by any other company
Period.
I am directly involved in saxophone design here at cannonball. Right
now
we are developing a new saxophone. I have designed the bore to MY
specifications!
I have designed the keys to MY specifications! I have designed the
length, taper, tone hole
size, key placement, tone hole placement.
How would this be possible for me to do if our horns were the same as
everyone else. This
is a saxophone that I, along with Tevis Laukat, and Ryan Lillywhite
here in SLC, UT have designed
and there is nothing like it in the industry. It is a completely new
design and unique.
We design all our instruments like this - From scratch. It is the
only way we do business.
Our horns are not made on the same assembly line as other makers.
They
are made in the CANNONBALL facility in Taiwan. No other instruments
come out of that
Cannonball facility in Taiwan. Just Cannonballs. Because of this we
can change and manipulate
anything we want, whenever we want!
They are then shipped to SLC, UT where we do our acoustic work to make
sure they are absolutely
perfect.
I realize that the majority of Taiwan horns are stenciled, but
Cannonballs are NOT.
Hope that helps.
Randal
ansertmetniac
It is still made n Taiwan.
Now, what is exactly unique on a Cannonball. Sounds like Goodson Jr.
In this I mean what was not copied from something that came before
Now, lets us all know who the real owner of Cannonball is and why his
his employee is such a shill
Abbedd
saxxsymbol
Do you believe that it is possible that other manufacterers might copy
your design very quickly and sell it under different names? It is my
understanding that sharing of technology and knowledge is common
there. And little to no copyright protection. If your horns are better
they will copy it.
Do you believe "resonance" stones glued to the neck and/or keywork can
affect the intonation of a saxophone? Do you believe finish on the sax
body and neck affects the sound? Do you accoustically adjust a silver
finish to play brighter, or does it already? Can the finish on the
outside of the neck affect the sound or timbre?
I personally think that you can find artisans and craftsmen anywhere
in the world if you look. There are fine horns being made in Taiwan,
China, Vietnam, Japan, and France. I only care about quality build,
tone, response, ergonomics, visual impact, price and intonation. Where
it is made, what it is made of, the back story of the company or its
principles is not important. It is importanat if the company is trying
to deceive the customer as to where the horn is made or how it plays.
Cannonball horns, IMHO, should stand on its own merits and take the
BS out of the marketing and sales end. I understand a lot of folks
like them. The only new pro one I tried ( global big bell tenor) that
a student of mine bought at a Sam Ash and later returned was not a
good sax. Very stuffy middle range and intonation was not good between
registers. I have heard good thing about the vintage series, but have
not tried them.
Unfortunately the marketing BS and JBT's incessant shiling and
attacking competitors and personal attacks at anyone who disagrees or
promotes a competitor or promotes buying used instead of new or
purchasing off the net ( even though he sells used horns on the net)
has turned me off the brand. And I know I am not the only one who
feels that way.
You are a very fine player, no doubt. Hope your new horns are really
good. Hope that they somehow improve on what is out there already. The
majority of the industry has been static for sometime now.
chuck
ansertmetniac
wrote:
>Ok, Jeffrey the one on the left is Tevis Laukat. He and his wife
>Sheryl are the real owners of Cannonball.
You are sadly mistaken
Abbedd
saxxsymbol
>
> - Show quoted text -
Pot calling the kettle black , sounds like.
saxxsymbol
> On Sep 2, 9:19 pm, saxxsymbol <saxxsym...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
Do a search on posts Jbt has started over the last two years here and
then tell me who the troll is. Jbt has asked many similar and even
more probing questions of Cannonball's competitors. He has run many
off here and has been banned from almost all the moderated forums he
has participted in.
The questions I have asked any reasonably imformed sax player would
ask you too. Just look at a recent post on SOTW where one of your
customers said he was almost ashamed to admit he owned Cannonballs. He
is not the first to say it over there too.
she...@cannonballmusic.com
Hi Everyone,
This is Sheryl Laukat, CEO of Cannonball. My husband and I own the
company. The certificates in the state of Utah verify this.
I did the testing data and applied for the patent for the stones. The
stones aren't magic, sonic or anything like that, but they do add
weight in places that affect the tone and also the intonation. Stones
(we use at least a hardness of 6) are more dense and weigh more than
mother of pearl. We now own the utility patent, and it doesn't just
include stones - it includes metals and any other weights. We use the
stones because they are beautiful, but metals would work too.
Remember that trumpet players use heavy valve caps to change their
tone. The stones on a saxophone work the same way. We also own many
design patents. Several companies copied our Big Bell Global Series
(year 2004 and earlier) before we spent the time and money to get
patents on our newer designs.
And yes, finish does make a difference in sound. I suppose not
everyone can hear it, but players can feel it and discriminating
musicians insist on certain finishes for a reason. In fact, the
tiniest things make a huge difference. We test saxophones all day,
every day and we never cease to be amazed at what we discover. It's
an incredible and wonderful journey.
We manufacture and sell thousands saxophones every year and certainly
we would love for all Cannonball owners to be happy. We're more than
willing to work with anyone who isn't satisfied with their
Cannonball. That is hugely important to all of the Cannonball team.
There is room in the market for many makes of saxophones. We show how
ours is unique and what the strengths are and how we have designed
Cannonballs to be what we have spent time on. We feel no need to put
another company's saxophones down to help our sales. Whatever works
for any player is great. Isn't that what it's all about? Making
music?
Why waste our efforts on putting others down when we can be improving
our talents and bringing joy to others and ourselves -
Cheers to musicians!
Sheryl Laukat
CEO and Owner, Cannonball Musical Instruments
ansertmetniac
wrote:
>Hi Everyone,
>This is Sheryl Laukat, CEO of Cannonball. My husband and I own the
>company. The certificates in the state of Utah verify this.
I am not disputing this. Everyone who is deep into the business knows
that Briant Summerhays is the actual owner and calls all the shots.
Should we expect anything more from a company who sells stones on
saxes and claims it helps the sound.
Or a company who when sent a letter from a fellow industry member
alerting them to the ridiculous attacks on his unimpeachable
credentials by one of their employees (Talcott), goes unanswered and
ignored.
I think you need to rethink your business methods. The post by Randall
Clark is unbelievable. Of course you can expect the sax community to
believe all of it. But I am not unaware.
If you think the Cannonball is in the class of a Selmer Mark VI, Conn
10M or my sax, you are fooling yourselves. When I was at Sam Ash ,
while analyzing why the J.B. Bari was so out of tune, I compared it to
a Cannonball. The Cannonball was no better.
And BTW-with Talcott attacking industry members and shilling, you are
closer to Goodson than any one else.
Abbedd
A real Design and Manufacturing Engineer
she...@cannonballmusic.com
Briant is a very dear friend, but he doesn't own any part of
Cannonball. I have the utmost respect for Tim Price. John Talcott
sees us about once a year and is a Cannonball fan, but doesn't work
for us and doesn't represent us. I wish you the best in your
pursuits.
Sheryl Laukat
CEO & Owner, Cannonball Musical Instruments
ansertmetniac
wrote:
You can maintain this for as long as you want., My info is from
Briant.
What does Tim Price have to do with anything we are talking about
Abbedd
saxxsymbol
>
>
> I did the testing data and applied for the patent for the stones. The
> stones aren't magic, sonic or anything like that, but they do add
> weight in places that affect the tone and also the intonation. Stones
> (we use at least a hardness of 6) are more dense and weigh more than
> mother of pearl. We now own the utility patent, and it doesn't just
> include stones - it includes metals and any other weights. We use the
> stones because they are beautiful, but metals would work too.
> Remember that trumpet players use heavy valve caps to change their
> tone. The stones on a saxophone work the same way. We also own many
> design patents. Several companies copied our Big Bell Global Series
> (year 2004 and earlier) before we spent the time and money to get
> patents on our newer designs.
>
> And yes, finish does make a difference in sound. I suppose not
> everyone can hear it, but players can feel it and discriminating
> musicians insist on certain finishes for a reason. In fact, the
> tiniest things make a huge difference. We test saxophones all day,
> every day and we never cease to be amazed at what we discover. It's
> an incredible and wonderful journey.
>
>
>
>
> Sheryl Laukat
> CEO and Owner, Cannonball Musical Instruments
You really believe that weights on the keys of a sax make a
difference? The sax is not like a trumpet. The keys on a sax don't
work like valve caps on a trumpet.Some trumpet players believe all
sorts of strange things affect their sound. Others think it has to do
with dimensions of the bore, mouthpiece, shank, bell etc.
Getting an approved patent doesn't prove that stones or weights would
make any difference. Many patents have been awarded on stuff that
doesn't do what it claims.
Subject the horns to an independant testing facility that has no
vested interest in the outcome and I believe the data will show there
is no difference.
I believe there are variables from horn to horn that have nothing to
do with finish. I read where you believe that two layers of silver
plate sounded better than three, so you only plate it twice?
Musicians are a superstitious bunch. They have have believed and done
all sorts of things to affect the sound on their given instruments.
Now manufacturers are preying on that.
I believe you believe what you say, I don't think you are trying to
deceive the public, but I could be wrong. When pressed in the past at
SOTW, I believe your companies response was , to paraphrase, " we are
not interested in an outside test to prove anything, we believe it, we
hear it, and that is enough for us. "
I can't argue with logic like that......
Gomez
>
> - Show quoted text -
I have a Phil Barone Vintage, ne Mac 8, tenor.
It is a Cannonball big bell.
I have compared them, mic'ed them inside and out and played them both.
I challenge anyone to find a difference, other than cosmetic, between
the Barone Vintage and the Cannonball big bell - currently sold as the
"Stone" series.
This Taiwanese sax importing and stencil is a real liar's business. It
really twists my gut up how P Mauriat (the worst of the liars,
probably liable for prosecution), Cannonball and SG spin out half and
complete untruths when the truth is pretty good. They are, in almost
every circumstance, very good horns and can stand on their own merit.
The rest is just snake oil.
Very sad.
Gomez
saxxsymbol
>
> - Show quoted text -
I have not compared the Cannonball and Barone. I did compare a
saxgourmet model six and an early Barone Classic and they weren't even
close to the same horn.The barone played great for an $1200 horn.
I can say that I have taken my SG and saxgourmet horns to two
different techs and both said those horns were on a different chassis
and had different keywork than the other imported saxes they have
worked on. The posts, rods, finish pads and build quality were far
above what they are used to seeing in an imported sax. Both said the
designer knows what he is doing and were impressed. One said compared
to the big four he would give SG's horns a score 99 out of 100
possible points. The other said they were as good as any that the
techs and players from his store owned themselves.
Gomez
>
> - Show quoted text -
I think I may have an answer to that.
SG horns are made in either Vietnam or China depending on the mark and
vintage. The Barone horns are made in Houli, Taiwan as are the
Cannonballs.
Again, for all takers, I have throughly examined and played both a
Barone Vintage and a Cannonball big bell or "Stone" model. They were
identical, except of course a slight edge in sound and intonation
owing to the stones glued to the Cannonball. Yeah, right.
There is no measurable difference in the Barone Vintage and the
Cannonball big bell horns. They are identical except for cosmetics or
their professed "beads and rattles".
With all respect for the fine quality and wisdom in selecting horns
from Houli, I fear that Ms. Sheryl Laukat is either a very dishonest
person or is clinically delusional.
Either way, very sad.
Gomez
ansertmetniac
wrote:
>I wasn't going to get back into this thread, but this last post begs a
>response. Sheryl Laukat is the CEO of a multimillion dollar company
>based in Salt Lake City, Utah that produces one of the fastest growing
>professional brands of saxophones with dealerships throughout the
>United States and the world. She is also a friend. As such she should
>be accorded the respect due someone in her position. She has taken
>the time out of her busy schedule to post on this forum to correct the
>misinformation that has being spread about her company and to set the
>record straight. I hope this helps to bring some civility back to
>this thread.
Strange request from someone who respects no one else
Multi Million dollar company? How many horns per year is that???
Come on now-stay on this planet
Abbedd
Gomez
> response. Sheryl Laukat is the CEO of a multimillion dollar company
> based in Salt Lake City, Utah that produces one of the fastest growing
> professional brands of saxophones with dealerships throughout the
> United States and the world. She is also a friend. As such she should
> be accorded the respect due someone in her position. She has taken
> the time out of her busy schedule to post on this forum to correct the
> misinformation that has being spread about her company and to set the
> record straight. I hope this helps to bring some civility back to
>
> - Show quoted text -
Oh come on John. Bernie Maddoff was the "CEO of a multi-million dollar
company" and he's a crook. How about the guys at Enron?
I think she's getting exactly "respect due someone in her position".
If she thinks that stones glued on saxophones makes them play better,
she's nuts. If she is trying to convince kids or adults that stones
glued on saxophones makes them play better, knowing better, then she's
a charlatan and a liar.
I vote nuts.
But here's the BIG question for this forum. Do YOU think that stones
glued on saxophones makes them play better? Do YOU think that the
finish on a saxophone affects the tone?
Your friends at Cannonball have very publicly expressed that they so
believe. You have carefully never answered these questions though they
have been posed several times.
Inquiring minds,
Gomez
ansertmetniac
wrote:
>Do YOU think that the
>finish on a saxophone affects the tone?
It most certainly does
Abbedd
saxxsymbol
> On Sep 4, 6:35 pm, Gomez <go...@komatos.com> wrote:
>
> > But here's the BIG question for this forum. Do YOU think that stones
> > glued on saxophones makes them play better? Do YOU think that the
> > finish on a saxophone affects the tone?
>
> > Your friends at Cannonball have very publicly expressed that they so
> > believe. You have carefully never answered these questions though they
> > have been posed several times.
>
> > Inquiring minds,
>
> > Gomez
>
> staff at Cannonball play because I have heard them. I also know how
> how good their "ears" are to detect different very small nuances in
> the tone as I have watched and listened as one of them "acoustically
> customize" several necks. I also know that they each play dozens of
> saxes in one setting of the exact same model in different finishes and
> have the chance to compare the feel and response of the silver plated,
> versus the lacquered, versus the unlacquered hundreds of times a year.
>
> Because of this when Randall, Tevis, or Ryan say that they feel, hear,
> or sense a difference in the different finishes from this experience,
> I tend to believe that they actually do because of their skill and
> expertise. I can't say from first hand experience whether the finish
> does or does not affect the sound because I have not done what they
> have done, nor is my playing skill at their level.
>
> The stones issue is a red herring that this constantly thrown up by
> those who want to discredit and attack the Cannonball Company and/or
> those who like their saxophones. My answer to that question is also I
> honestly don't know. I have actively read, researched, and studied
> woodwind acoustics for the last 2 years. I know that there is a
> discrepancy between what the acoustic scientists say is true and what
> musicians believe. One example is that the acoustician believes that
> a metal clarinet and one made of grenadilla wood should sound exactly
> the same if the internal dimensions are exactly alike. The problem is
> not one symphony clarinetist or recording artist plays a metal
> clarinet and no one has ever made two clarinets out of two different
> materials that are exactly alike to do a double blind test.
>
> The Cannonball company spent thousands of dollars to test the acoustic
> effects of the stones in the keys and published their findings in this
> patent application.http://www.google.com/patents?id=vY-lAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=...
> I have read, studied, and analyzed the data charts showing the changes
> in the "harmonicity" of the overtones with pearls in the keys, stones
> in the keys, and empty keys with nothing in them.
>
> The data as shown in the patent application does suggest that the
> overtones "line up" better in trials with the stones inserted just as
> the company claims. Now the problem is this. The study was not done
> by an independent acoustic research team in an entirely scientific
> fashion using double blind tests, etc, etc. The folks at Cannonball
> are fantastic musicians, but they are not acoustic scientists. They
> did use random players of all different ability levels, and they
> rented the most expensive state of the art spectrum analyzer and
> microphones. They also sent the data to the company that made the
> equipment for the analysis that they presented in their patent
> application. Does their study hold up to strict scientific scrutiny?
> Probably not. But that does not mean that the marvelous players at
> Cannonball who really believe they heard and felt a difference with
> and without the stones are trying to deceive the public or pull off a
> scam to sell more instruments. I honestly don't know whether or not
> the stones affect the sound or intonation. However, I do believe that
> the staff at Cannonball are sincere and honest when they say they
> believe that they do based on their first hand experience and acoustic
> trials. I also know them to be honest and decent people who are
> incredibly talented and genuinely excited about making their saxes
> better and better all the time.
>
> Those who trash other people on this forum deserve trash to be thrown
> back at them. Sheryl Laukat is not one of those people.
John, John, John. You asking for folks to show respect is like OJ
asking folks to be nice to their wives and don't control, beat or
murder them. Maybe that is too harsh, but you get my point.
sdm_sax
I think the patent is a there to protect Cannonballs idea of using
stone pearls. If there data was true a sax would sound different with
the pearls removed. I replaced my artificial pearls with real ones but
gave the sax a blow with all removed. There was no difference.
A patent is to protect an idea not to prove whether the idea has
value. I'd like to see a proper scientific test done on this, but I
really can't see any reason why a bit of stone would flatten
overtones. It doesn't make any sense at all.
SDM
saxxsymbol
> On Sep 5, 7:15 pm, henry d <hadu...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Sep 5, 6:13 pm, jbtsax <jbt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > I thought jtbsteve had left this forum.
>
> > Mayhaps- he's certainly been quiet. But I'm puzzled- it was you and
> > jtbsteve who specialize in changing the subject lines of threads to
> > reflect your views of what those subjects ought be. I was just
> > resetting it to
> > the nomenclature of the original poster- as I had thought you had
> > intended all right thinking posters ought in several earlier
> > threads.
>
> > But I clearly overstepped my bounds my liege. This board is indeed
> > your domain now and you alone determine the Subjects. The two
> > jesters
> > dance regularly for your entertainment with their bell bedecked multi
> > peaked parti-colored caps and pointed slippers- glad to subject
> > themselves to your rapier wit and hence bask in reflected glory.
> > Some
> > slink by offering their furtive observations in the great hall for
> > your approval. The State Enemy lurks- omnipresent, a symbol of the
> > evil that you defend your minions from; the source of your power.
>
> > Yup- you certainly did drive me off and I find I just don't have the
> > heart to return to the games of flaming one-upsmanship. I came to
> > talk music and sax but found precious little of either. I concede
> > the
> > field to you Prince John.
>
> > It ain't much but it's all yours. Better to rule in Hell....or
> > ALT.SAX, than to serve in any of the other discussion boards.
>
> > Henry
>
> I am so impressed with your command of the English language Henry, but
> not nearly as much as you are. Please consider yourself on my ignore
> list along with what's his name. I wish you well in your recovery
> from whatever causes your erratic and unpredictable behavior on
> discussion forums---bipolar disorder perhaps? I note with interest
> your post is still in the Talcott troll thread on Goodson's forum.
> Perhaps you should have just stayed there since you seemed to fit in
> so well.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Hi Henry. Nice to hear from you again.
John's sense of fairness ends when it comes to Cannonball.
ansermetniac
wrote:
>On Aug 22, 7:29�pm, George Orwell <nob...@mixmaster.it> wrote:
>> After trying to read this NG for several months I have decided that I will
>> NEVER buy, or play, a Cannonball sax.
>>
>> Il mittente di questo messaggio|The sender address of this
>> non corrisponde ad un utente � |message is not related to a real
>> reale ma all'indirizzo fittizio|person but to a fake address of an
>> di un sistema anonimizzatore � |anonymous system
>> Per maggiori informazioni � � �|For more info
>> � � � � � � � � �https://www.mixmaster.it
>
>Please check out George Orwell's posts on other forums before you give
>any credence to what he has posted here on alt.music.sax
George Orwell, AKA Normen Nescio AKA Anonymous et al, is the resident
troll of Rec. Music.Classical Recordings
Abbedd
kwgrinnell
Why do people quote SOTW as the begining and end of saxophone
authority? There are about 350 members of that site, I am one and do
visit and comment occasionaly. The members on there tend to discredit
anyone that has not commented at least a few hundred if not thousand
times. I prefer to take a quick look after practice and tend to be
baffled at the ones that say "my teacher says blah blah blah..." I do
believe there are some fellow players but most tend to be snide
internet bullies. Play or fix the horn and don't chase your tail over
nonsense. If the perception of finish or stones/nuts/bolts or playdo
makes you sound better, use it. We all would like to look good when we
play. Get some pants that fit, iron your shirt and get a haircut, the
crowd does respond to looks. Just one of my performance thoughts
gained from 33 yrs in the biz.
K
42 yrs of sax and going strong
ansertmetniac
An administrator told me my opinion was valueless and Harri backed him
up.
I am banned for life---and they brag about it
Harri told me that Pete Thomas was more of an expert than I
And Dave Kessler-who funds it all-backed up Harri
It is a sewer of misinformation and a place to worship Barone the
counterfeiter
Abbedd
saxxsymbol
>
> - Show quoted text -
changed title back to original..........................
saxxsymbol
> ..............
John, you have extolled the virtues of this unmoderated forum where
content can't be controlled. Why are you now trying to moderate this
thread? You are all for free speech as long as everybody agrees with
you. Leave the title the original posted used. He may be a troll, but
so are you.
ansertmetniac
wrote:
>Please check out George Orwell's posts on other forums before you give
>any credence to what he has posted here on alt.music.sax.
>
Jeff Powell does not play the sax(French Horn)
Dave Guardala does not play the sax(tools)
Mario Macaferri did not play the sax(guitar);
Zig Kanstell does not play the trumpet (Drums)
4 Giants and legends of the Music Manufacturing Industry (acoustic
division) with unimpeachable credentials and places in history
Talcott- what is your point?
Michael Brecker, the most important saxophonist and wind player of the
last 50 years came to me to design a mouthpiece to achieve his sound.
He is a saxophonist, not a design engineer
Talcott, again, what is your point?
Talcott, you know facts--but you have not an iota of a clue what they
mean
Steve Goodson and Phil Barone play the sax. They have not contributed
one shred of originality or advancement to the Industry and have
actually reversed some advancements. They rely on deception of
marketing
Talcott-once again, what is your point?
Abbedd
Bartinmari
>
> Why do people quote SOTW as the begining and end of saxophone authority? There are about 350 members of that site, I am one and do
> visit and comment occasionaly.
>
> K
> 42 yrs of sax and going strong
kwgrinnell,
as a member of the SOTW Forum you know, that their total membership is
30.000 not 350.
-Bartin
ansertmetniac
<westsid...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>as a member of the SOTW Forum you know, that their total membership is
>30.000 not 350.
Would you believe...?
Abbedd
saxxsymbol
> On Tue, 8 Sep 2009 09:46:58 -0700 (PDT), Bartinmari
>
> >as a member of the SOTW Forum you know, that their total membership is
> >30.000 not 350.
>
> Would you believe...?
>
> Abbedd
I can't count the times JBT has personally insulted me. Now he wants
to bury the hatchet. Something is now causing him pain and he wants to
say uncle. Now, that is very nice that JBT wants to play nice.
Unfortunately he has done this very thing before when things weren't
going his way and later called me and Henry a fool for believing that
he really wanted to play nice. Now he must lie in the bed he has made.
JBT has said he let go of his resentment for me. He has only repressed
it for a while and I would be a fool to believe otherwise.
Unfortunately, I can't seperate Cannonball from JBT in my mind. They
are linked forever in cyberspace.
I don't know the OP, nor do I care to research him. His title should
stand. Let it die if you want, I won't bump it. There are some nasty
ones here directed at me from JBT in the past. Some personal info
divulged, insults hurled. I just have to live with it. It won't affect
CB's sales. What affects their sales is claims that stones on keys
affect the way a sax sounds. I could believe it affects the way it
feels under the fingers, but not the sound.
When one reads anything on the net, most reasonable people consider
the source.
Since the consensus is the OP doesn't play sax his title is true after
all.
kwgrinnell
> least, only you. Your memory is also quite selective to say the
> least. Try going back and reading the things you have posted about me
> including all the false and malicious statements that simply parroted
> things Goodson has written, such as trying to attract young boys with
> the Harry Potter avatar. There is no high ground here. I am publicly
> apologizing for insulting you on these forums and saying derogatory
> things. My intent is to stop doing so. You can continue to bait and
> provoke me as you wish, I can't control that. All I can do is to ask
> you to let it be, and I will do the same.
Just looked, SOTW membership is listed at 341, "not" 30,000.
ansermetniac
wrote:
>Go to this link and read at the bottom of the page http://forum.saxontheweb.net/
>
>Currently Active Users: 832 (188 members and 644 guests)
>Threads: 112,705, Posts: 1,214,697, Members: 29,787, Active Members:
>7,095
>
There aren't 30K sax players on this planet Maybe those from Mars
have joined
Abbedd
Bartinmari
>
> > > > On Tue, 8 Sep 2009 09:46:58 -0700 (PDT), Bartinmari
>
> > > > <westsidebigb...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > >as a member of the SOTW Forum you know, that their total membership is
> > > > >30.000 not 350.
>
My apology, It is not 30,000 but 29,802 to be exact. Please see the
bottom of the page http://forum.saxontheweb.net/
Once again, I am sorry for rounding up.
saxxsymbol
> On Sep 9, 10:17 am, Bartinmari <westsidebigb...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > On Sep 9, 4:23 am, kwgrinnell <kwgrinn...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > On Tue, 8 Sep 2009 09:46:58 -0700 (PDT), Bartinmari
>
> > > > > > <westsidebigb...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > > > >as a member of the SOTW Forum you know, that their total membership is
> > > > > > >30.000 not 350.
>
> > > Just looked, SOTW membership is listed at 341, "not" 30,000.
>
> > My apology, It is not 30,000 but 29,802 to be exact. Please see the
> > Once again, I am sorry for rounding up.
>
> buy one of any brand.
>
> Anyone who changes the title back to the original one in order to
> punish the Cannonball company just to get back is demonstrating what a
> petty, mean spirited, and childish individual they really are.
I guess your petty, mean spirited, childish behavior on a thread about
my business was okay then? And what about your other poo poo threads.
And you are in your 60's. No wonder you pick the avatars you do. Your
are still 15 inside aren't you?
Oh yeah, you are the good guy so the end justifies the means. How
silly of me to forget. There is no moderator here John, as you have so
gleefully stated before. Why are you trying to be one. Let it die.
mississippisaxguy
> On Sep 10, 6:36 pm, henry d <hadu...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > Fine by me.
>
> You win. Have any title you want. I'm not going to play your
> childish games any longer.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
saxxsymbol
> On Sep 10, 7:58 pm, henry d <hadu...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Sep 10, 8:43 pm, mississippisaxguy <mississippisax...@gmail.com>
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > and supporting tales of similar crap to satisfy me. I've always
> > supported you and have in point of fact spent time looking for a sax
> > that might match yours.
>
> > You don't like Mr. White- got it. You have made that pretty clear
> > and, though I disagree and think that Chuck is more lined up in
> > support to the playability of the horns the flim flam man made and
> > reflexively anti- Mr. Cannonball (who has given him nothing but pure
> > unadulterated malicious vindictive and underhanded crap for years now)
> > than pro Goodson, you have your opinion and are absolutely free to
> > voice it.
>
> > This thread, started by a guy who dropped by to throw a grenade and
> > then left, sums up his position that as a result of all the BS that's
> > gone on by the Cannonball advocate he wouldn't consider buying one.
> > That stands whether or not he plays (which we don't actually know
> > either way- and which has no real bearing).
>
> > The disgust with even hearing the name "Cannonball" brought on by the
> > ad nauseum BS here and in other forums while posting by the guy was
> > still allowed, is nothing not very very familiar to many many readers
> > of this and other forums. King Flim-flam is in the same category-
> > though it's he own wares whose name he's soiled and he's dishonest
> > rather than just offensive. Too bad, they're actually fine horns.
>
> > Though I don't particularly think he actually deserves it from you I
> > understand your animosity- go ahead and voice your opinion here and
> > elsewhere.
>
> > This thread bears a subject line that's right on the money though;
> > bought and paid for by countless offensive uncalled for personal
> > attacks over the years by someone who made the brand "Cannonball"
> > synonymous with himself for many.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloviate- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Stop trying to control the content here john.
Henry, you are right on the money as usual.