Low Note Gurgle on Tenor

[Steve]

Puzzler for you Tech Gurus ---

Horn is a 1937 (24xxx) Selmer Balanced Action tenor. Beautiful sounding
horn, especially after recent overhaul when the riveted pads were replaced
by pads with nylon (mark VI style) resonators.

However.... Now getting a gurgle on low E, Eb, and D when playing softly. I
can compensate for it by dropping my jaw slightly, but it's suddenly a lot
of effort to avoid low note gurgle when playing softly!

I had taken the horn back to my tech shortly after the overhaul because only
low E was gurgling. He found the Bb bis key was not closing fully, due to
felt compression under the A key. He fixed that, and all seemed well for a
while. But now the soft, low gurgle is back and affecting E, Eb and D.

My tech is on vacation, and I'll probably catch up with him when he returns,
but anybody have any thoughts??

Thanks!
SteveS

[MrWitworth]

Steve, The first thing I do when any of my horns begin misbehaving is to drop a
leak light in it and see if I can spot the culprit. I am assuming you are using
a reed-mpc setup that is to your liking. The is probably a small leak
somewhere. Recently my Yamaha 855 alto began acting up at a rehearsal and I
knew there couldn't be anything serious wrong with it. But upon close
inspection, sure enough, there was a piece of case lining fuzz stuck across the
pad seat of the low C#. I plucked it out, and thing returned to normal. The
point is, even the smallest invater of your pad seats can make the horn
misbehave. The trouble you are having suggest something in the upper stack most
likely.

RC

[Stephen Howard]

On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 21:29:13 -0400, "Steve" <steve...@erols.com>
wrote:

Could be almost anything - but it's certainly a leak somewhere.

I'd start by checking the Aux.F pad, above the low F key.
Check the seat of the pads at the back of the cups too...

http://www.shwoodwind.co.uk/HandyHints/LeakyPads.htm

Regards,

--
Stephen Howard - Woodwind repairs & period restorations
www.shwoodwind.co.uk
Emails to: showard{who is at}shwoodwind{dot}co{dot}uk

[Frank D]

"Steve" <steve...@erols.com> wrote in message news:<bfq0mm$kpv$1...@bob.news.rcn.net>...

First off, congrats on that fine BA. I've played a 22,xxx since I was
in high school (1970's) and they are great horns. Unfortunately it's
out of commision at present, needing a repad and removal of the noyeks
I stupidly had put in years ago.

That having been said, I've never had a gurgle problem with that horn.
I did have one recently with the 10M I've been playing, down around C,
C#. It seemed to be sealing ok, so I tried dropping a wine cork in the
bell, something about breaking up standing waves, but that didn't help
either. It finally went away when I switched reeds. The reed I was
playing during the gurgle was a bit on the soft side (end of life),
and switching to a fresher reed of the same strength eliminated the
problem right away. Don't know why this worked, just passing it along.

[Mark Bushaw]

I would suspect that the bis key has again started leaking as that was the
previous problem. When I have a horn that has a problem note (or a group of
two or three) I look for a leak halfway between the bad note and the
mouthpiece first, if that looks OK, then I look at the points halfway
between the first point and the mouthpiece, and halfway between the first
point and the problem note (in other words, divide the horn in half between
the problem and the mouthpiece, then into quarters). I do this because these
are (generally) node points that will have a greater effect on one note and
minor effects on all notes. If the bad notes are low C#, C and B, I look at
the bell to body connection too.
So try sliding your finger onto the bis key when you play low E and see if
the problem goes away.
Mark Bushaw

"Steve" <steve...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:bfq0mm$kpv$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...

[Steve]

Thanks all!

Steve Howard, me old mucker, I printed out your article on pad leaks for
reference.

Interesting that C#, B, and Bb are fine.... Only E, Eb, and D are
unstable....

I have neglected to try other reeds as well, but I should.

Again, thanks for the responses.

Steve

[MrWitworth]

Steve, one last thing to look at: since you said that the horn was redone and
that the problem does show up on low D, try unscrewing the Low C bumper felt so
that the vent of the C key is increased. Sometime a repair person will set the
range of motion of the low C key too narrow thereby reducing the breathing room
for the low C key. This will make Low D misbehave. Low D actually sounds
through the Low C tone hole. If you ever want to witness the impact of
additional venting on the freeness of a particular note, try this: play low D
(sustained) and then press the Low C$# key. The decrease in resistance and
improvement in tone might surprise you, as well as the rise in pitch. And
consider, that the B abd Bb are already open so why would additional venting
make a difference? But it does. For any note on the horn, the openness of the
neighboring tone hole is extremely important for freeness and intonation.

RC

[P. Tung]

There also was a somewhat involved discussion on this ng, just recently,
answering basically the same question (although not necessarily the same
problem, course).

A google search for "low note gurgle saxophone" or "...gurgling..." in
google groups will probably turn it up.

"Steve" <steve...@erols.com> wrote in message

news:bfsncg$ejh$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...

[Steve]

Thanks! I'll try that too... Haven't had the chance to play with it for the
last few days!

Steve

"MrWitworth" <mrwit...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030726101605...@mb-m18.aol.com...