Red brass vs. yellow brass
Alon Wolman
lacquer. Or the brass can also be yellow. On some yellow brass horns there
are areas of 'copper bleed through' where the brass has changed color to
become reddish. On bare brass horns reddish spots appear, this oxidation is
also a form of copper bleed through. Is there a way to precipitate this
process? Obviously lacquer prevents this from happening, but if I strip a
horn of it's lacquer will the brass darken and take on this red hue over
time?
-Alon
Lincoln
spit and other craps gets on it. Then eventually just really dark all
over. Almost black in some cases.
And contrary to popular belief, the sound doesn't become darker as
this happens. Although in the "redder" horns, some say that when the
moon is full, and the planets are aligned, the tone is slightly more
"red hot" than the yellower horns which are thought to be a more
"cowardly" sound.
Lincoln
Alon Wolman
http://www.saxpics.com/the_gallery/conn/new_wonder/tenor/lacquer/178yyy_vs/a
.jpg
This is my horn, BTW, and I'm trying to convert it's appearance to look like
the others. Can that be done? Is it as simple as stripping the lacquer,
allowing the brass to age and darken, and then leaving it as it or spraying
with clear lacuqer, or ?
-Alon
"Alon Wolman" <al...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:31dc8.1392$r04.1...@news2.news.adelphia.net...
> Okay, so then why are some horns, like Selmers for example, have almost a
> greenish hue to them under the lacquer? The brass appears naturally dark.
I
> have seen a Conn tenor like this as well, which I think was original. How
> was the fresh yellow brass treated in the factory to take on this
> appearance? Or is this the color of the lacquer?
>
> Here is couple of links to pics of tenor with this look.
>
> http://justsaxes.com/currentinv/253Ktrantenor.html
> http://justsaxes.com/currentinv/mkvitenor.html
>
> Or on the opposite end of the spectrum, the shiny yellow look:
>
>
>
> I didn't know you could do that.
>
> -Alon
>
> "Lincoln" <linc...@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:3c7121f2...@news.concentric.net...
Lincoln
only see the differences live and in person. They may be the exact
same color.
Here's the other deal: they are what they are. If you strip off the
lacquer, (which is a rediculously stupid thing to do if it's the
original lacquer) then you have no control over what it will look
like. Yes there may be a difference in the actual color of the brass
form era to era, and from brand to brand, but like I said, "it is what
it is".
I know that "It is what it is" is a bad answer for someone who likes
to obsess over stuff like this, and it's impossible to let it go, but
that's the answer. If you would like to continue to obsess, then
obsess away.
Alon Wolman
lacquer I wouldn't strip it. It's not original. It's this really ugly bright
yellowish-gold lacquer that I believe is deadening the resonance. On old
horns like Selmers, et al, I understand the factory lacquer was very thin,
that's why it tends to flake off really easily. It may be that my horn's
lacquer is too thick, or has too many chemicals in it, I don't know, but
it's a bad thing. Right now I'm on my way to hardware store to buy some
paint stripper and with me and my toothbrush I'm going to turn this thing
into a tiger striped ugly as all hell half-brass half-lacquer... well you
get the idea. Will report back with the results.
-Alon
"Lincoln" <linc...@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3c716cb6...@news.concentric.net...
Lincoln
Actually I wasn't angry. Not at all.
When you get the lacquer off, it will probably look brand new. And if
you want to polish it, you can get it to a mirror finish if you like.
It will shine as if you have a brand new coat of laquer on it.
OR
Here's a big tip. You don't have to polish it. Get it clean perfectly
clean and free of lacquer. Then go over it with .00 and .000 and .0000
steel wool. You will end up with a very cool patiqued matte finish
that looks old and won't show fingerprints. The brass will then turn
dark over the years, but in the mean time it won't be such a contrast
between the clean polished spots, and the spots where your slobber has
spotted it.
Lincoln
Tom Savonick
language people use when they're talking to an idiot.
Tom
"Lincoln" <linc...@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3c718786...@news.concentric.net...
Alon Wolman
inhale!! Awful. Oh well I guess I'll be more careful next time. Nothing some
chicken, ice cream, cigarettes won't cure anyhow.
The bare brass has quite a cool quality to it. It's bright and shiny and
full of color. The lacquered parts have a dead quality to them, but it gives
some mellowness and refinement to the bare brass alone. The bare brass is
rather bright on it's own. So I'm going to strip off about half of it to get
a little more resonance going.
-Alon
"Lincoln" <linc...@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3c718786...@news.concentric.net...
Alon Wolman
I enjoy being a person of profound mental retardation having a mental age
below three years and generally being unable to learn connected speech or
guard against common dangers. You should try it sometime.
-Alon
"Tom Savonick" <tsav...@rcn.com> wrote in message
news:a4s43i$6v6$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
Alon Wolman
brass is not the answer, but a washover with paint stripper has effectively
thinned the lacquer. This has been a most worthwhile endeavor, so far,
however now I must figure out how to remove the gunk. I didn't dissamble it
so it's kind of a pain.
-Alon
"Alon Wolman" <al...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:shhc8.1507$r04.1...@news2.news.adelphia.net...
Tom Savonick
Been there, not going back.
Tom
"Alon Wolman" <al...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:1Uhc8.1517$r04.1...@news2.news.adelphia.net...
Alon Wolman
much more growl and life now the sound is just unbelievable. And I only took
off a couple big patches from the bell. I can't imagine how amazing it would
sound with no lacquer at all. I swear, half the fun of playing is just the
saxophone itself. It's such an amazing thing. And when you really start
*playing* it's like a marriage between the sound of the physical horn and
the music of the player and it all comes together and then you really know
what's going on.
Sorry, I hope my enthusaism doesn't bother anyone.
-Alon
"Alon Wolman" <al...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:1Xhc8.1519$r04.1...@news2.news.adelphia.net...
Alon Wolman
I agree foolishness must be tempered by the mind, being humans, living in
society and all. But, what's the fun of always being in fear of venturing
outside of our minds. I've been there, not going back.
-Alon
"Tom Savonick" <tsav...@rcn.com> wrote in message
news:a4scg1$7jm$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
Tom Savonick
Tom
"Alon Wolman" <al...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:Uqjc8.1566$r04.1...@news2.news.adelphia.net...
John
>
>Sorry, I hope my enthusaism doesn't bother anyone.
Nah. Just your neverending stupidity. And your unforgiveable abuse of what was
probably a good horn. Hope Gayle hasn't been reading this newsgroup.
>
>-Alon
JTL in Atlanta
(remove .conn from address to reply)
Alon Wolman
state seperate from pure mental activity, and yet can include any amount of
mental activity. That is what I mean by going out of your mind. It is not
really going out of your mind, but can include being crazy, an idiot, or
cooking a pot roast, or reciting a ode to flowerhood, or running a
multi-million dollar corporation. It's just when we have to step into our
mind to make decisions or whatever we lose contact with our true self, the
world around us. People today are so caught up in 'ideas' of having to live
a certain way for a certain reason or doing things because they think they
should or whatever, is a huge load of donkey crap. People today are scared.
I don't mean to assume, it's a natural thing, I was that way too, just until
I gained the knowledge of realization that I am not that. I am not my mind.
But now, I'm not afraid. This rover... zzz crossed over. If I'd never have a
cent, I'd be rich as rockafellar. Just direct your feet, to the sunny side
of the street.
-Alon
"Tom Savonick" <tsav...@rcn.com> wrote in message
news:a4si2b$s48$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
Alon Wolman
tenor. In 1926 these horns were never lacquered. In my opinion this Chu was
nothing special. It was one of the least expensive tenors on her website.
The keywork is loose and the lacquer thick and ugly, and the horns been
buffed. Not having the money right now to buy a new tenor, I'm trying to get
the best sound out of it that I can. And so far my results have been
pleasing. You call that stupid? Trading my pristine 319x 10M for this hunk
o' junk, that was stupid. But I'm not the way I was during that 3 month
stint of moron hood. It was interesting though.
-Alon
"John" <johnt...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:3c71cce5....@news.mindspring.com...
Alon Wolman
state seperate from pure mental activity, and yet can include any amount of
mental activity. That is what I mean by going out of your mind. It is not
really going out of your mind, but can include being crazy, an idiot, or
cooking a pot roast, or reciting a ode to flowerhood, or running a
multi-million dollar corporation. It's just when we have to step into our
mind to make decisions or whatever we lose contact with our true self, the
world around us. People today are so caught up in 'ideas' of having to live
a certain way for a certain reason or doing things because they think they
should or whatever, is a huge load of donkey crap. People today are scared.
I don't mean to assume, it's a natural thing, I was that way too, just until
I gained the knowledge of realization that I am not that. I am not my mind.
But now, I'm not afraid. This rover... zzz crossed over. If I'd never have a
cent, I'd be rich as rockafellar. Just direct your feet, to the sunny side
of the street.
-Alon
"Tom Savonick" <tsav...@rcn.com> wrote in message
news:a4si2b$s48$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
mitch
Mitch
Alon Wolman <al...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:hwkc8.1598$r04.1...@news2.news.adelphia.net...
Alon Wolman
Super Premium Vanilla Ice Cream from Costco, a big bag of turkish tobacco, a
friendly dog, 3 woman around age of 22, a really messy house, a big steak of
freshly cured salmon, umm, followed by some of my famous salt and pepper
honey olive oil chicken, eggs, a bottle of gin, more cigarettes, another 3
girls around the age of 22, a beautiful tenor sax for me to play to myself,
a band of the finest musicians in town, god damn, more ice cream, more
cigarettes, 6 woman this time, how about a few gallons of
gee I better stop here
-Alon
"mitch" <mi...@mitchellandrus.com> wrote in message
news:a4smmp$o82$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net...
Alon Wolman
a town, of any climb, where people like a rockin' time, and stay awake, both
day and night, where everybody's feeling good and right then throw me
Smack dab in middle
Chuck me, smack dab in the middle
Haula me, smack dab in the middle
And let me rock and roll to satisfy my soul!
I want 10 cadillacs, and a diamond mill! 10 suits of clothes to dress to
kill. I want a 10 room house and some BBQ!
And 50 chicks not over 22.
{chorus}
I want a lot of bread, and gangs of meat. Oodles of butter, and something
sweet. Gallons of coffee, to wash it down.
A carbonated soda by the palm, then throw me!
{shorus}
I want Count Basie's band, and a hundred fine ballet girls. Fix me a seat,
of fine natural pearls. {something...anybody remember?) then open up the
door to Fort Knox! And throw me...
-Alon
"Alon Wolman" <al...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:uolc8.1605$r04.1...@news2.news.adelphia.net...
Alon Wolman
-Alon
"Alon Wolman" <al...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:uolc8.1605$r04.1...@news2.news.adelphia.net...
Alon Wolman
don't you just come over to my place and we'll have a saxophone party. The
alt.music.saxophone at Alon's house gig. Earplugs not included.
-Alon
"Alon Wolman" <al...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:nRlc8.1613$r04.1...@news2.news.adelphia.net...
Alon Wolman
I found out. The brass, when bare, develops a patina very quickly, within
one or two days if cleaned properly, and takes on a greenish hue. Many
Selmers, for example, you may have seen look like this because the factory
lacquer was very thin and so it flaked off, allowing the brass to oxidize.
If the brass is allowed to sit long enough, it will turn orange, and take on
a deep reddish-brownish hue, as many of you may have seen on older horns. As
for my tenor, all the lacquer will be stripped and the brass left bare to
turn orange, or whatever it decides to do. I believe that the sound will
change according to way the surface of the brass changes chemically from the
oxidation process, from the metal molecules combining with oxygen to form
various metal oxides (zinc, copper, etc.) each with their own sound.
-Alon
"Alon Wolman" <al...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:Cr3c8.1204$r04.1...@news2.news.adelphia.net...
Me
>
> I don't understand what's stupid about stripping the lacquer on a Conn tenor.
I'm not surprised. I didn't want to use the word "stupid" in this case. That's why I didn't reply to the original post. I couldn't stop *thinking* "STUPID!". But the derision isn't because of your stripping the lacquer, per se. I freaked because you didn't even try to get a better sound from the horn in a more conventional way, you slopped harsh chemicals on a precision instrument without verifying that the horn wouldn't be harmed, you spread harsh chemicals near or onto what I seem to remember are brand new pads, and you took irreversible action without a solid understanding of what you were doing. Stupid is as good a word as any to *start* describing that course of action.
> In 1926 these horns were never lacquered.
Wrong! A few were sold bare, but the vast majority were lacquered or plated. Most bare horns you find today were stripped after the worn lacquer became unsightly.
> In my opinion this Chu was nothing special.
This is where it becomes very difficult to avoid the "S" word. The New Wonder (Chu Berry) Conns are awesome horns. Unless the body is damaged, or in the unlikely case where the keywork is worn beyond repair, a competent professional could restore your horn to excellent playing condition. Based on your recent posts, I can assume that by now, one of a few remaining New Wonders has been damaged beyond repair. I own three vintage Conn tenors, and for me, there isn't anything on the market today that can compare to them. I love these old Conns, and in my opinion, what you are doing is nothing short of criminal stupidity. Yeah, the horn should suit the player, and there is nothing finer than a sax that is "perfect" for you, but make the changes carefully and do the job right. What's next? Are you gonna start adjusting the intonation with a hammer?
> It was one of the least expensive tenors on her website.
So what!? If I bought a '57 T-Bird for $1,000, should I strip it down to make a beach buggy instead of restoring it as a rare classic?
> The keywork is loose
Swedge. That's where a competent repairman carefully compresses the hinge tubes to reduce the inner bore size and create a proper fit. If done correctly, a swedge job is as good as new keywork, possibly even better, if done by a top craftsman. Until you get the keywork fixed, anything you do to the finish, the pads, or any damned thing else on the horn is a waste of time, money, and effort. If the keys really are sloppy, get them fixed right and hope you can reseat the existing pads. Until you do that, nothing else matters.
> and the lacquer thick and ugly,
By what standards? The pictures I've seen, it didn't look so bad. But even if it sucked in real life, you should (a) get your money back. (b) have the horn refinished by someone who knows what the hell they're doing. (c) take the time to learn, *really* learn, what kind of job you're undertaking and do it right.
> and the horns been buffed.
And chemical stripping is going to make it all better?
> Not having the money right now to buy a new tenor,
So you trash a rare antique. This does not convince me you are using your head.
> I'm trying to get the best sound out of it that I can.
The only way you are ever going to get a "good sound" is to play, then play some more, then get a good teacher and learn all you can, then play some more. I was a mechanic for many years. I got too old to cut it in that job, so I got a couple of degrees in math and I feed myself programming warplanes. For any number of reasons, I will never be a good musician. But I damn well know enough about it to confidently say that until you learn a hell of a lot about music, and a hell of a lot about saxophones, and a whole hell of a lot about working to accomplish a goal, you will never get beyond being a pretentious pain in the ass.
> And so far my results have been pleasing.
Until tomorrow. When the sound will be in the third house of Jupiter. Or a cold front makes it sound snowy. Or until the pads rot from chemical exposure.
A significant part of the volume of air that creates the sound of a saxophone is contained within the player's chest and throat. The muscle development required to properly contain that air column, properly direct it, and the muscle tone and physical skill required to consistently force the air stream over the reed into the horn require years to develop. Your statement above is arrogant beyond belief. It is ridiculous for you to claim that you have the kind of playing ability, experience with sound, and aural acuity to tell the change in tone caused by raping the lacquer off part of the bell of a sax. You're too busy trashing your equipment to learn to play well. It would be kindness indeed to label that statement as pure bullshit. All I can say is "Yore ass must be talkin', cause yur head got better sense."
> You call that stupid?
I got lots of words for that. Stupid is only one of them.
> Trading my pristine 319x 10M for this hunk o' junk, that was stupid.
Yes, but at least it was in character. And if there is any justice in the world, the Lady is in the hands of someone who will care for it, appreciate it, and enjoy it.
> But I'm not the way I was during that 3 month stint of moron hood.
From where I'm standing, it looks like you're just sliding right on down into gross stupidity.
> It was interesting though.
But only if you enjoy incompetence.
Alon,
A lot of the people in this group take saxophones very seriously. Whether they play the latest designs, the vintage classics, or whatever they can lay hands on to make music, they work hard to master an art form. Your constant prattle about finding a secret combination of astral forces, states of consciousness, and hardware mods that will magically make you a master is insulting and irritating to people who have worked hard to get where they are musically. Accomplishment comes only from work, and the people who achieve some level of skill, however great or small, are demeaned by your constant insistence that you can match that accomplishment through random activity.
Some of us revere vintage saxophones (or the latest models) as works of art in themselves. I have told you that a sax is only a tool. But creating that tool, and the tool itself, can be an art form the same as using the tool to make music. I am a lover of vintage Conn saxes. To me, those old horns are art in the true sense. In my eyes, what you are doing is vandalizing art. You might as well spray-paint a border around a Rembrant painting. What you are doing is insulting and wrong. And the reasons you give for what you are doing are pointless and based in arrogance and ignorance. You have no idea what you are doing, and no amount of insistence will justify your childish behavior.
There is nothing wrong, in my opinion, with updating and improving a vintage horn. My main horn is modified, slightly, but only after a lot of research and a lot of thought. The changes improved the horn in ways that were important to me. But none of the changes were irreversible. And none of the changes where made without professional guidance, and they were made by a skilled craftsman. New materials and advances in engineering offer improvements for old horns, just like they make the newer designs better in some ways than vintage horns. But radical modification, with no experimental or theoretical foundation or goals is just foolishness run rampant.
My stepsister was once married to a guy who was literally retarded. He could not hold a job, and was physically dangerous in *any* kind of group activity. Otherwise, he was a decent guy and pretty likable. But he had one habit that I just could not stand. Whenever he pulled some stupid stunt, he had to talk about it. Stupidity in and of itself is no crime. We all have limits, and we can only work with what we were born with. But you have to know your limitations and respect them. And for god's sake, keep your mouth shut when you screw up.
I resent the fact that you find it necessary to destroy an irreplaceable work of art. And I doubly resent the fact that do it for no valid reason. Your attitude toward musicianship and musicians is offensive. But the worst part is that you remind me of what an idiot you can be every time I open my news reader. You can weld symbols of the zodiac into the bore of your horn if you want. You can twist your neck into an astral receiver if that trips your trigger. You can store your mouthpieces inside an altar to Zorcon, Pain God of the Seventh Plane if that makes you feel better. But shut the hell up about it already. And PLEASE don't try to convince me you know what you're doing, or that your musical scholarship is anything more than a juvenile attempt to get something for nothing. There are no perpetual motion machines, and there are no real musicians that don't work to develop their skills.
To be honest, the content of your posts, both in subject and in substance, have made me doubt that you have ever held a saxophone. It is unlikely in the extreme that a student changes professional grade saxophones more often than he changes his underwear. I flat can't believe that you sent off a mouthpiece to be refaced and had it back long enough to evaluate the modification in barely enough time for USPS to make the round trip. In my experience, the top craftsmen have long waiting lists and I'd imagine that airheaded pests end up with a doubly long wait. I have never read one of your posts that couldn't have been written by someone who's only experience with a saxophone was looking at pictures on websites. I strongly suspect that the tonal problems you have with your horn are caused by the imaginary nature of the sax, not by the finish. If you truly are an aspiring musician, then you need to learn to respect the members of this group and the nature of the art. If you are a groupie run out of control, give us all a break. I will continue to believe you are an impostor and a pretender, because if you are for real, I have to accept your claim that you are vandalizing precious antiques to avoid facing reality.
Get a life. Please.
Alon Wolman
news:3C720F31...@swbell.net...
> I'm not surprised. I didn't want to use the word "stupid" in this case.
That's why I didn't reply to the original post. I >couldn't stop *thinking*
"STUPID!". But the derision isn't because of your stripping the lacquer,
per se. I freaked >because you didn't even try to get a better sound from
the horn in a more conventional way, you slopped harsh >chemicals on a
precision instrument without verifying that the horn wouldn't be harmed, you
spread harsh chemicals >near or onto what I seem to remember are brand new
pads, and you took irreversible action without a solid >understanding of
what you were doing. Stupid is as good a word as any to *start* describing
that course of action.
I hear you. I have tried to get a better sound out of the horn in a
conventional, actually. I felt that no matter what, I was limited by the
sound quality of the lacquer, which is true. A horn will sound like a
particular horn no matter what mouthpiece, reed, or embrochure, oral cavity,
etc. is used with it. As for verifying the instrument wouldn't be harmed, I
did do that. Someone else I know did the same thing with paint stripper and
a toothbrush and no harm was done to the instrument. As for the pads, they
are soon going to be replaced anyway.
> > In 1926 these horns were never lacquered.
>
> Wrong! A few were sold bare, but the vast majority were lacquered or
plated. Most bare horns you find today > were stripped after the worn
lacquer became unsightly.
From what I understand, lacquer was not yet invented until 1928. Until then,
Conn had saxes available in:
raw brass,
nickel plate,
silver plate,
silver plate with gold keys,
gold plate,
burnished gold plate,
burnished gold plate with extra engraving
True, only about 1% were built in raw brass.
>
> > In my opinion this Chu was nothing special.
>
> This is where it becomes very difficult to avoid the "S" word. The New
Wonder (Chu Berry) Conns are awesome >horns. Unless the body is damaged, or
in the unlikely case where the keywork is worn beyond repair, a competent
>professional could restore your horn to excellent playing condition. Based
on your recent posts, I can assume that >by now, one of a few remaining New
Wonders has been damaged beyond repair. I own three vintage Conn tenors,
>and for me, there isn't anything on the market today that can compare to
them. I love these old Conns, and in my >opinion, what you are doing is
nothing short of criminal stupidity. Yeah, the horn should suit the player,
and there is >nothing finer than a sax that is "perfect" for you, but make
the changes carefully and do the job right. What's next? >Are you gonna
start adjusting the intonation with a hammer?
Yes, Chu's are awesome horns. Unfortunately an unskilled repairman buffed
and refinished it with a thick layer of ugly gold-colored lacquer that has
muted it's sound somewhat. The engraving is weak, but it's still visible so
it's not terrible.
My intention in this project was to bring out best in this horn without
harming it.
>
> > It was one of the least expensive tenors on her website.
>
> So what!? If I bought a '57 T-Bird for $1,000, should I strip it down to
make a beach buggy instead of restoring it > as a rare classic?
That's what I'm trying to do, restore it as a rare classic by bringing it
back to what it would have been more likely to be like from 1926.
>
> > The keywork is loose
>
> Swedge. That's where a competent repairman carefully compresses the hinge
tubes to reduce the inner bore size >and create a proper fit. If done
correctly, a swedge job is as good as new keywork, possibly even better, if
done by >a top craftsman. Until you get the keywork fixed, anything you do
to the finish, the pads, or any damned thing else >on the horn is a waste of
time, money, and effort. If the keys really are sloppy, get them fixed
right and hope you can >reseat the existing pads. Until you do that,
nothing else matters.
That's true. Right now it's playable, but some swedging would be nice. I am
a little disconcerted Gayle didn't inform me of the loose keywork when I
bought it. Thank you, Mrs. Fredenburgh.
> > and the lacquer thick and ugly,
>
> By what standards? The pictures I've seen, it didn't look so bad. But
even if it sucked in real life, you should (a) get >your money back. (b)
have the horn refinished by someone who knows what the hell they're doing.
(c) take the time >to learn, *really* learn, what kind of job you're
undertaking and do it right.
Well, I find it ugly. Good lacquer is very thin and shows off the natural
colors of the brass. I did want to return the horn, but Gayle Fredenburgh
refused to do business with me after a certain point because she didn't have
the time to work with my needs and couldn't be bothered by me. Sure, I am a
little picky, and ask a lot of questions, but every discriminating musician
has to be.
>
> > and the horns been buffed.
>
> And chemical stripping is going to make it all better?
No, I never said stripping is going to replace the lost metal. I was just
implying this isn't exactly a super primo orignal condition Chu Berry.
>
> > Not having the money right now to buy a new tenor,
>
> So you trash a rare antique. This does not convince me you are using your
head.
I'm not trashing anything. A lot of players prefer bare brass horns. And
anyway they were built this way in 1926.
>
> > I'm trying to get the best sound out of it that I can.
>
> The only way you are ever going to get a "good sound" is to play, then
play some more, then get a good teacher and >learn all you can, then play
some more. I was a mechanic for many years. I got too old to cut it in
that job, so I got >a couple of degrees in math and I feed myself
programming warplanes. For any number of reasons, I will never be a >good
musician. But I damn well know enough about it to confidently say that
until you learn a hell of a lot about >music, and a hell of a lot about
saxophones, and a whole hell of a lot about working to accomplish a goal,
you will >never get beyond being a pretentious pain in the ass.
There are many aspects to a players sound. One of those aspects is the
physical sound dictated by the equipment they play.
>
> > And so far my results have been pleasing.
>
> Until tomorrow. When the sound will be in the third house of Jupiter. Or
a cold front makes it sound snowy. Or >until the pads rot from chemical
exposure.
Maybe tomorrow I'll decide I want something else. I'm sure my search for the
perfect tenor will involve lots of time, money, and experimentation. For
now, I'm happier than I was.
>
> A significant part of the volume of air that creates the sound of a
saxophone is contained within the player's chest >and throat. The muscle
development required to properly contain that air column, properly direct
it, and the muscle >tone and physical skill required to consistently force
the air stream over the reed into the horn require years to >develop. Your
statement above is arrogant beyond belief. It is ridiculous for you to
claim that you have the kind of >playing ability, experience with sound, and
aural acuity to tell the change in tone caused by raping the lacquer off
part >of the bell of a sax. You're too busy trashing your equipment to
learn to play well. It would be kindness indeed to >label that statement as
pure bullshit. All I can say is "Yore ass must be talkin', cause yur head
got better sense."
I've been playing for 6 years, and I know how to get a good sound out of a
horn. Aural acuity has nothing to do with playing ability, anyway. I've
always had great aural acuity. I can tell how the material of a mouthpiece
sounds, for example, by tapping on it and listening to the resonance. But of
course, this is all subjective so nobody has to believe me just because I
say it. As for learning to play, I do want to become a better player
technically and having a good-sounding horn to practice with makes it a lot
more fun.
>
> > You call that stupid?
>
> I got lots of words for that. Stupid is only one of them.
>
> > Trading my pristine 319x 10M for this hunk o' junk, that was stupid.
>
> Yes, but at least it was in character. And if there is any justice in the
world, the Lady is in the hands of someone >who will care for it, appreciate
it, and enjoy it.
I hope so too. It was a beautiful lady.
>
> > But I'm not the way I was during that 3 month stint of moron hood.
>
> From where I'm standing, it looks like you're just sliding right on down
into gross stupidity.
Not really. Paint stripper, designed to remove paint from metal, can't harm
the metal itself. And like I said before, someone else I know did it with
good results and no damage to the metal.
>
> > It was interesting though.
>
> But only if you enjoy incompetence.
No, I didn't enjoy incompetence. I learned that very quickly. It was just
interesting (and fun) being a total baby for a few months.
>
> Alon,
>
> A lot of the people in this group take saxophones very seriously. Whether
they play the latest designs, the vintage >classics, or whatever they can
lay hands on to make music, they work hard to master an art form. Your
constant >prattle about finding a secret combination of astral forces,
states of consciousness, and hardware mods that will >magically make you a
master is insulting and irritating to people who have worked hard to get
where they are >musically. Accomplishment comes only from work, and the
people who achieve some level of skill, however great >or small, are
demeaned by your constant insistence that you can match that accomplishment
through random activity.
I hear you. I agree perhaps a lot of what I said in this newsgroup was, and
sometimes still is, a bit off track. But part of the energy of this group is
having a little fun now and then. I admit I have to control myself
sometimes. As for astral forces, states of consciousness, we all know about
the use of consciousness altering substances that saxophone players have
used. Most of the finest saxophones players who ever lived, really.
Consciousness is a very important, if not the most important, aspect of
playing music. Astral forces might be a little off the track, that's true.
Hardware mods, well everybody here is into those. Not that they will make
you a master, of course. Of course, that takes years of practice. I don't
mean to insult or irritate anybody, I only wish to speak the truth. Both
accomplishment and random activity (as you put it) are equally important
tools, at least in the jazz world. Most saxophone players today play jazz,
or improvised music. This is random activity, isn't it?
>
> Some of us revere vintage saxophones (or the latest models) as works of
art in themselves. I have told you that a >sax is only a tool. But
creating that tool, and the tool itself, can be an art form the same as
using the tool to make >music. I am a lover of vintage Conn saxes. To me,
those old horns are art in the true sense. In my eyes, what you >are doing
is vandalizing art. You might as well spray-paint a border around a
Rembrant painting. What you are >doing is insulting and wrong. And the
reasons you give for what you are doing are pointless and based in arrogance
>and ignorance. You have no idea what you are doing, and no amount of
insistence will justify your childish behavior.
I too revere saxophones as a work of art in themselves, and especially in
the way that they are used as a tool. The combination of both to create
music, really. I am also a lover of vintage Conn saxes. I agree, these horns
are art in the true sense. But in and of itself, it's art that serves little
function. Maybe as an ornament, if you fancy that, but I don't. I seek to
make use of these beautiful vintage saxes, and that means that they have to
be carefully modified, regulated, etc. If you ask me, the repairman who
decided to make this Conn tenor look 'shiny new' by buffing it and
relacquering it was the one vandalizing art. One of the nice things, too,
that I was delighted to uncover by removing the lacquer was a beautiful
gold-washed bell interior.
>
> There is nothing wrong, in my opinion, with updating and improving a
vintage horn. My main horn is modified, >slightly, but only after a lot of
research and a lot of thought. The changes improved the horn in ways that
were >important to me. But none of the changes were irreversible. And none
of the changes where made without >professional guidance, and they were made
by a skilled craftsman. New materials and advances in engineering offer
>improvements for old horns, just like they make the newer designs better in
some ways than vintage horns. But >radical modification, with no
experimental or theoretical foundation or goals is just foolishness run
rampant.
None of the changes I have made are irreversible (well for a couple days
until the brass starts to oxidize.) But that is my intention, based on the
knowledge that the brass will darken and develop a patina, even until it
takes on a deep reddish orange hue, just like many old worn lacquer vintage
saxes have (which sound great.) Yes, the brass will oxidize, but this is not
always destructive to brass, or at least probably not in my lifetime. If I
notice it's breaking down, I'll simply spray it with a thin coat of clear
lacquer.
>
> My stepsister was once married to a guy who was literally retarded. He
could not hold a job, and was physically >dangerous in *any* kind of group
activity. Otherwise, he was a decent guy and pretty likable. But he had
one habit >that I just could not stand. Whenever he pulled some stupid
stunt, he had to talk about it. Stupidity in and of itself is >no crime.
We all have limits, and we can only work with what we were born with. But
you have to know your >limitations and respect them. And for god's sake,
keep your mouth shut when you screw up.
I agree that we do have limitations and have to respect them. Like I said,
for a few months I embraced the idea of no limitations. Of course, I could
have easily jumped off a building and it wouldn't bother me one bit. This is
quite an amazing feeling. But alas, I do enjoy life, and so I will never be
like that again, or at least only when it's possible (like playing jazz
music.) Of course music has rules and limitations too, but part of playing
jazz is being original. That's what I mean by no limitations. As far talking
about my stunts, well, it's a natural thing to express yourself and your
experiences. Nothing anyone does is wrong, it's just an experience to learn
from. I will keep my mouth shut when I screw up though, I'll admit that's
just my childish side wanting to show off.
>
> I resent the fact that you find it necessary to destroy an irreplaceable
work of art. And I doubly resent the fact that >do it for no valid reason.
Your attitude toward musicianship and musicians is offensive. But the worst
part is that >you remind me of what an idiot you can be every time I open my
news reader. You can weld symbols of the zodiac >into the bore of your horn
if you want. You can twist your neck into an astral receiver if that trips
your trigger. You >can store your mouthpieces inside an altar to Zorcon,
Pain God of the Seventh Plane if that makes you feel better. >But shut the
hell up about it already. And PLEASE don't try to convince me you know what
you're doing, or that >your musical scholarship is anything more than a
juvenile attempt to get something for nothing. There are no >perpetual
motion machines, and there are no real musicians that don't work to develop
their skills.
Now you're talking, girl. Tell me more about the altar to Zorcon.
>
> To be honest, the content of your posts, both in subject and in substance,
have made me doubt that you have ever >held a saxophone. It is unlikely in
the extreme that a student changes professional grade saxophones more often
than >he changes his underwear. I flat can't believe that you sent off a
mouthpiece to be refaced and had it back long >enough to evaluate the
modification in barely enough time for USPS to make the round trip. In my
experience, the >top craftsmen have long waiting lists and I'd imagine that
airheaded pests end up with a doubly long wait. I have >never read one of
your posts that couldn't have been written by someone who's only experience
with a saxophone >was looking at pictures on websites. I strongly suspect
that the tonal problems you have with your horn are caused >by the imaginary
nature of the sax, not by the finish. If you truly are an aspiring
musician, then you need to learn to >respect the members of this group and
the nature of the art. If you are a groupie run out of control, give us all
a >break. I will continue to believe you are an impostor and a pretender,
because if you are for real, I have to accept >your claim that you are
vandalizing precious antiques to avoid facing reality.
>
> Get a life. Please.
I am not a student of appreciating the differences between saxophones. If I
could afford it, I might try out 6000 saxophones and mouthpieces before I
find what I like. Afterall, it is like underwear. We all gotta wear it, and
some kinds are better than others. But it is just underwear, no matter how
cold your balls (or whatever) gets without it, still it's our vintage
one-of-a-kind irreplacable gold-plated underwear and it's our right to do
with it what we please. This is how the world works. You either have or you
don't. Anyway enough about underwear. I do appreciate the members of this
group and the nature of the art. That's why I apologized recently for going
overboard with my posts during my childhood regression phase. And I'll do
it again. Folks, I'm sorry.
-Alon
B
Alon post us a picture to see what you have done to your horn!
B
Alon Wolman <al...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:Ukpc8.1632$r04.1...@news2.news.adelphia.net...
Cassie Hart
6 of them are his?!
Me
>
> I wonder where do you guys get the time to write all this hogwash?
That's easy. I've got bronchitis and I was up most of the night wired out of my mind on prescription cough syrup. But now that you mention it, maybe my time would have been better spent out in the garage refacing a few mouthpieces on the bench grinder. Alon could have a point. ??
Richard Bush
spirits, that trees can talk to each other and that grass feels pain
when someone walks on it.
My advice: stay off the grass.
Alon Wolman wrote:
>CLIP>
Lincoln
michel mackiewicz
Richard Bush
michel mackiewicz
mdavey
Alon Wolman wrote:
-
Lincoln
then the sound won't be even all over the horn. Some parts of the horn
will sound brighter. (But you probably know this already if you've
taken the time to tap the various spots.)
This isn't necessarily a problem if you perform acoustically, but the
minute you are put in front of a mic, look out. The mic must be in the
critical spot. Unless....
If you invest in several wireless mics, and a small rack mounted
mixer, then you can spend some time and experiment with placement of
the various mics. Hang them from the pad guards, or thumb rest, or
rods. Then if you're mixer has EQ on each channel, you're really in
business because you can tweak each mic!!
If you still aren't happy, you can buy a couple of old Barcus Berry
transducers and superglue them to the horn in various spots,
(lacquered and unlacquered) and experiment with mixing the transducers
with the mics.
Good luck.
Lincoln
John
>how about a lobotomy ?
>
Waiting for Wolman to reply "been there, done that."
.
>Alon Wolman wrote:
>
>> Let's see... how about this here one gallon bucket of Kirkland Signature
JTL in Atlanta
Paul Lindemeyer
mdavey wrote:
>
> how about a lobotomy ?
With a Shove-It Swab and a little elbow grease, this is well within the
realm of possibility.
> Alon Wolman wrote:
>
> > Let's see... how about this here one gallon bucket of Kirkland Signature
> > Super Premium Vanilla Ice Cream from Costco, a big bag of turkish tobacco, a
> > friendly dog, 3 woman around age of 22, a really messy house, a big steak of
> > freshly cured salmon, umm, followed by some of my famous salt and pepper
> > honey olive oil chicken, eggs, a bottle of gin, more cigarettes, another 3
> > girls around the age of 22,
Why do I picture all these oddments piled chaotically in the center of
the living room floor of the really messy house, while Alon (whom I
picture as a drugged-out version of Ilya Averbuch, the Russian ice
skater, attired in an unsanitary Manny's Shlepper Shirt) trips gaily
around the pile dousing it all with lacquer thinner?
Alon, put the Chu Berry down and slowly back away with your hands in the
air. You really screwed up this time. If I hear of you touching a
classic vintage saxophone again, I will come and personally stomp you
down its bell.
-P.
MrWitworth
other ones out there... <;o)
R
Alon Wolman
stinkin' grass. I'm a mystic. My dog's name is Ming. That means 'brilliance'
in chinese. And catch me if you can.
-Alon
"Paul Lindemeyer" <pa...@lindemeyer.com> wrote in message
news:3C72E8E7...@lindemeyer.com...
Me
>
> It's just an old saxophone...
Sort of like: "It's just your old mother... "?
> there are plenty of other ones out there...
Really?! What kind of tree do they grow on? I'll plant one. Hey, there's an idea. I could grow a sax tree hydroponically for that "liquid" sound. Another grown in deep loam for an "earthy" sound. A sax tree in strong sunlight would produce a horn with a bright tone. One kept in the house would produce fruit with a darker tone. And you'd know which is which by tapping on the trunk. Gosh! Think of all those years horn makers wasted learning their craft when it was really this easy.
No. The whole point is, there really aren't "plenty" of them left. These horns are a finite resource and once they are gone, there won't be anymore. Even if vintage horns don't interest you personally, surely you can understand that some people think they're special. Years ago, there was an uproar because some Saudi Sheik bought a mansion in California and had the several pieces of fine sculpture painted to "improve" them. The neighborhood went up like wildfire. Art lovers around the world were insulted because the Sheik's ignorance made a mockery of something that was dear to their hearts.
In this case, something that is dear to me is being damaged, and perhaps eventually destroyed, because an erratic individual will pull any idiotic stunt to avoid admitting that he doesn't have the self discipline to reach his own goals. If this were a real effort to make a legitimate improvement, I wouldn't feel outraged. But in this situation, an immature fool is treating a work of art like a playtoy just to stroke his ego.
Alon Wolman
stinkin' grass. I'm a mystic. My dog's name is Ming. That means 'brilliance'
in chinese. And catch me if you can.
-Alon
"Paul Lindemeyer" <pa...@lindemeyer.com> wrote in message
news:3C72E8E7...@lindemeyer.com...
>
Alon Wolman
friggin' terrible to this one-of-a-kind hunk o' brass? It's getting a really
unique sound, actually.. I almost finished removing all the lacquer and when
I have it repadded I'll have the techie is get the nooks and crannies for
me. Ooh, and when it develops a patina that will be interesting. (patina:
Italian, from Latin, plate (from the incrustation on ancient metal plates
and dishes.)
-Alon
"Me" <jenr...@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:3C733074...@swbell.net...
Alon Wolman
Very good. I am sort of Russian. Half Lithuanian, half Latvian, Jew,
actually. How did you know? ;) My mom was born in the beautiful city of
Riga, and my dad's side are a bunch of adventerous Litvaks from shtetls who
migrated to South Africa in the 18th century.
-Alon
"Paul Lindemeyer" <pa...@lindemeyer.com> wrote in message
news:3C72E8E7...@lindemeyer.com...
>
Alon Wolman
South Africa, just retired recently, and my other grandfather was head of
the dermatology department in the largest hospital in Riga. A fine doctor.
I've a lot of interesting family members, Felix Mendelson I believe is a
distant relative, and there were quite a few crazy Russian murderers in my
family too I understand. One of them was a gangster, and then there was the
one who was the police chief. And, the one guy who stabbed someone with a
knife when he was 14. There's a millionare or two in there as well, I think.
My grandmother Sylvia, a total nutcase. She floated around as a ghost for a
while after her death pulling all kinds of interesting maneuvers. She grew
the most beautiful hydrangeas. <sigh> Anyway I won't get into that now.
-Alon
"Alon Wolman" <al...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:VaLc8.1814$r04.1...@news2.news.adelphia.net...
Henk Coetzee
> Hi Paul,
>
> Very good. I am sort of Russian. Half Lithuanian, half Latvian, Jew,
> actually. How did you know? ;) My mom was born in the beautiful city of
> Riga, and my dad's side are a bunch of adventerous Litvaks from shtetls who
> migrated to South Africa in the 18th century.
>
> -Alon
Seems he doesn't know much history either. Most Lithuanian immigrants
(My great grandparents for instance) came to South Africa at the very
end of the 19th or early 20th Centuries. None in the 18th Century.
I don't know where Alon lives now, I don't think I want to know either,
but I hope it is far from South Africa. We respect our instruments here.
Cheers
Henk
fundoc
"Henk Coetzee" <he...@remove-this.geoscience.org.za> wrote in message
news:3C73ABC9...@remove-this.geoscience.org.za...
> I don't know where Alon lives now, I don't think I want to know either,
> but I hope it is far from South Africa. We respect our instruments here.
Treat them as well as the natives, do you?
Henk Coetzee
Was this meant to be funny, rude or just another demonstration of
ignorance and stupidity?
fundoc
"Henk Coetzee" <he...@geoscience.org.za> wrote in message
news:3C73FB10...@geoscience.org.za...
Ironical, actually.
Boputhuswana is far away
But we know it's in South Africa no matter what they say
You can't buy me I don't care what you pay
Don't ask me Sun City because I ain't gonna play
I ain't gonna play Sun City
Alon Wolman
anyway... yes I was born in Cape Town, so beautiful place. BTW I do respect
my instrument. I'm going to finish stripping it properly and repad with some
original Conn-resopads custom made and I'll have a beautiful and unique bare
brass tenor almost exactly like came out of the Conn factory in 1926.
-Alon
"Henk Coetzee" <he...@remove-this.geoscience.org.za> wrote in message
news:3C73ABC9...@remove-this.geoscience.org.za...
Henk Coetzee
fundoc wrote:
> Boputhuswana is far away
In space (from you) and time. Bophuthatswana hasn't existed since 1994.
Neither has the South Africa that you seem to think I live in, although
I know a number of South Africans who also don't seem to have noticed.
> But we know it's in South Africa no matter what they say
> You can't buy me I don't care what you pay
> Don't ask me Sun City because I ain't gonna play
> I ain't gonna play Sun City
You ain't gonna play Sun City until you stop posting crap and do some
serious practicing.
toby
patina?
From the latin "oxidere"--to get all pitted and corroded.
Toby
"Alon Wolman" <al...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:w4Hc8.1801$r04.1...@news2.news.adelphia.net...
Alon Wolman
great like this. It's amazing, so full and resonant. I'll never play with
lacquer again unless I have to. And, the brass is starting to change colors
and look really beautiful. This is an exceptional horn now, I'm going to
take care of it so it doesn't corrode.
-Alon
"toby" <zdft...@golSPAMJAM.com> wrote in message
news:CN1d8.8872$T4.7...@nnrp.gol.com...
Alon Wolman
-Alon
"Lincoln" <linc...@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3c72d5ea...@news.concentric.net...
A.W.
-alon
"Me" <jenr...@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:3C720F31...@swbell.net...
> Alon Wolman wrote:
> >
> > I don't understand what's stupid about stripping the lacquer on a Conn
tenor.
>
> I'm not surprised. I didn't want to use the word "stupid" in this case.
That's why I didn't reply to the original post. I couldn't stop *thinking*
"STUPID!". But the derision isn't because of your stripping the lacquer,
per se. I freaked because you didn't even try to get a better sound from
the horn in a more conventional way, you slopped harsh chemicals on a
precision instrument without verifying that the horn wouldn't be harmed, you
spread harsh chemicals near or onto what I seem to remember are brand new
pads, and you took irreversible action without a solid understanding of what
you were doing. Stupid is as good a word as any to *start* describing that
course of action.
>
> > In 1926 these horns were never lacquered.
>
> Wrong! A few were sold bare, but the vast majority were lacquered or
plated. Most bare horns you find today were stripped after the worn lacquer
became unsightly.
>
> > In my opinion this Chu was nothing special.
>
> This is where it becomes very difficult to avoid the "S" word. The New
Wonder (Chu Berry) Conns are awesome horns. Unless the body is damaged, or
in the unlikely case where the keywork is worn beyond repair, a competent
professional could restore your horn to excellent playing condition. Based
on your recent posts, I can assume that by now, one of a few remaining New
Wonders has been damaged beyond repair. I own three vintage Conn tenors,
and for me, there isn't anything on the market today that can compare to
them. I love these old Conns, and in my opinion, what you are doing is
nothing short of criminal stupidity. Yeah, the horn should suit the player,
and there is nothing finer than a sax that is "perfect" for you, but make
the changes carefully and do the job right. What's next? Are you gonna
start adjusting the intonation with a hammer?
>
> > It was one of the least expensive tenors on her website.
>
> So what!? If I bought a '57 T-Bird for $1,000, should I strip it down to
make a beach buggy instead of restoring it as a rare classic?
>
> > The keywork is loose
>
> Swedge. That's where a competent repairman carefully compresses the hinge
tubes to reduce the inner bore size and create a proper fit. If done
correctly, a swedge job is as good as new keywork, possibly even better, if
done by a top craftsman. Until you get the keywork fixed, anything you do
to the finish, the pads, or any damned thing else on the horn is a waste of
time, money, and effort. If the keys really are sloppy, get them fixed
right and hope you can reseat the existing pads. Until you do that, nothing
else matters.
>
> > and the lacquer thick and ugly,
>
> By what standards? The pictures I've seen, it didn't look so bad. But
even if it sucked in real life, you should (a) get your money back. (b)
have the horn refinished by someone who knows what the hell they're doing.
(c) take the time to learn, *really* learn, what kind of job you're
undertaking and do it right.
>
> > and the horns been buffed.
>
> And chemical stripping is going to make it all better?
>
> > Not having the money right now to buy a new tenor,
>
> So you trash a rare antique. This does not convince me you are using your
head.
>
> > I'm trying to get the best sound out of it that I can.
>
> The only way you are ever going to get a "good sound" is to play, then
play some more, then get a good teacher and learn all you can, then play
some more. I was a mechanic for many years. I got too old to cut it in
that job, so I got a couple of degrees in math and I feed myself programming
warplanes. For any number of reasons, I will never be a good musician. But
I damn well know enough about it to confidently say that until you learn a
hell of a lot about music, and a hell of a lot about saxophones, and a whole
hell of a lot about working to accomplish a goal, you will never get beyond
being a pretentious pain in the ass.
>
> > And so far my results have been pleasing.
>
> Until tomorrow. When the sound will be in the third house of Jupiter. Or
a cold front makes it sound snowy. Or until the pads rot from chemical
exposure.
>
> A significant part of the volume of air that creates the sound of a
saxophone is contained within the player's chest and throat. The muscle
development required to properly contain that air column, properly direct
it, and the muscle tone and physical skill required to consistently force
the air stream over the reed into the horn require years to develop. Your
statement above is arrogant beyond belief. It is ridiculous for you to
claim that you have the kind of playing ability, experience with sound, and
aural acuity to tell the change in tone caused by raping the lacquer off
part of the bell of a sax. You're too busy trashing your equipment to learn
to play well. It would be kindness indeed to label that statement as pure
bullshit. All I can say is "Yore ass must be talkin', cause yur head got
better sense."
>
> > You call that stupid?
>
> I got lots of words for that. Stupid is only one of them.
>
> > Trading my pristine 319x 10M for this hunk o' junk, that was stupid.
>
> Yes, but at least it was in character. And if there is any justice in the
world, the Lady is in the hands of someone who will care for it, appreciate
it, and enjoy it.
>
> > But I'm not the way I was during that 3 month stint of moron hood.
>
> From where I'm standing, it looks like you're just sliding right on down
into gross stupidity.
>
> > It was interesting though.
>
> But only if you enjoy incompetence.
>
>
>
> Alon,
>
> A lot of the people in this group take saxophones very seriously. Whether
they play the latest designs, the vintage classics, or whatever they can lay
hands on to make music, they work hard to master an art form. Your constant
prattle about finding a secret combination of astral forces, states of
consciousness, and hardware mods that will magically make you a master is
insulting and irritating to people who have worked hard to get where they
are musically. Accomplishment comes only from work, and the people who
achieve some level of skill, however great or small, are demeaned by your
constant insistence that you can match that accomplishment through random
activity.
>
> Some of us revere vintage saxophones (or the latest models) as works of
art in themselves. I have told you that a sax is only a tool. But creating
that tool, and the tool itself, can be an art form the same as using the
tool to make music. I am a lover of vintage Conn saxes. To me, those old
horns are art in the true sense. In my eyes, what you are doing is
vandalizing art. You might as well spray-paint a border around a Rembrant
painting. What you are doing is insulting and wrong. And the reasons you
give for what you are doing are pointless and based in arrogance and
ignorance. You have no idea what you are doing, and no amount of insistence
will justify your childish behavior.
>
> There is nothing wrong, in my opinion, with updating and improving a
vintage horn. My main horn is modified, slightly, but only after a lot of
research and a lot of thought. The changes improved the horn in ways that
were important to me. But none of the changes were irreversible. And none
of the changes where made without professional guidance, and they were made
by a skilled craftsman. New materials and advances in engineering offer
improvements for old horns, just like they make the newer designs better in
some ways than vintage horns. But radical modification, with no
experimental or theoretical foundation or goals is just foolishness run
rampant.
>
> My stepsister was once married to a guy who was literally retarded. He
could not hold a job, and was physically dangerous in *any* kind of group
activity. Otherwise, he was a decent guy and pretty likable. But he had
one habit that I just could not stand. Whenever he pulled some stupid
stunt, he had to talk about it. Stupidity in and of itself is no crime. We
all have limits, and we can only work with what we were born with. But you
have to know your limitations and respect them. And for god's sake, keep
your mouth shut when you screw up.
>
> I resent the fact that you find it necessary to destroy an irreplaceable
work of art. And I doubly resent the fact that do it for no valid reason.
Your attitude toward musicianship and musicians is offensive. But the worst
part is that you remind me of what an idiot you can be every time I open my
news reader. You can weld symbols of the zodiac into the bore of your horn
if you want. You can twist your neck into an astral receiver if that trips
your trigger. You can store your mouthpieces inside an altar to Zorcon,
Pain God of the Seventh Plane if that makes you feel better. But shut the
hell up about it already. And PLEASE don't try to convince me you know what
you're doing, or that your musical scholarship is anything more than a
juvenile attempt to get something for nothing. There are no perpetual
motion machines, and there are no real musicians that don't work to develop
their skills.
>
> To be honest, the content of your posts, both in subject and in substance,
have made me doubt that you have ever held a saxophone. It is unlikely in
the extreme that a student changes professional grade saxophones more often
than he changes his underwear. I flat can't believe that you sent off a
mouthpiece to be refaced and had it back long enough to evaluate the
modification in barely enough time for USPS to make the round trip. In my
experience, the top craftsmen have long waiting lists and I'd imagine that
airheaded pests end up with a doubly long wait. I have never read one of
your posts that couldn't have been written by someone who's only experience
with a saxophone was looking at pictures on websites. I strongly suspect
that the tonal problems you have with your horn are caused by the imaginary
nature of the sax, not by the finish. If you truly are an aspiring
musician, then you need to learn to respect the members of this group and
the nature of the art. If you are a groupie run out of control, give us all
a break. I will continue to believe you are an impostor and a pretender,
because if you are for real, I have to accept your claim that you are
vandalizing precious antiques to avoid facing reality.
>
> Get a life. Please.
A.W.
let me tell u back in the day when i was a youngster we used to drink the
stuff from time to time, -- vicks 44
it's called DXM
dextromethorphan - it's REALLY REALLY wierd and uhh not very good for you
either
REALLY REALLY wierd. I remember my friend commented I was swimming while
sleeping on the floor one of those nights...
-Alon
"Me" <jenr...@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:3C726945...@swbell.net...
> B wrote:
> >
> > I wonder where do you guys get the time to write all this hogwash?
>
> That's easy. I've got bronchitis and I was up most of the night wired out
of my mind on prescription cough syrup. But now that you mention it, maybe
my time would have been better spent out in the garage refacing a few
mouthpieces on the bench grinder. Alon could have a point. ??
Henk Coetzee
A.W. wrote:
> ah yes cough syrup
>
I'm beginning to understand Alon better.
Lincoln
BEFORE you started in with the chemicals. (And the stripper solution.)
A.W.
newsgroup is advertising a bare brass Conn for sale recently. From what I
understand you have to take care of it. A lot of people own mostly
delacquered old horns like Selmers that are surviving. Anyway I really like
how the brass is starting to darken and change color. It's starting to look
old and ugly, which is exactly what I want. I'll spray with a thin coat of
clear lacquer eventually to preserve it if I need to at a later point.
-Alon
"Lincoln" <linc...@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3c7506c1....@news.concentric.net...
Richard Bush
A.W.
"Richard Bush" <rbushi...@attbi.com> wrote in message news:3C757CF6...@attbi.com...
B
the reaction of the people.
well he got what he wanted
B
Lincoln <linc...@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3c727d73...@news.concentric.net...
> Yes. Please, please, please. Post pictures. Lots of them.
Lincoln
A.W.
-Alon
"Lincoln" <linc...@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3c766b76....@news.concentric.net...
> I'm scarred.
A.W.
lacquer adds a little focus and refinement to the sound, but patina'd brass
is nice. Just for the record, I'll be sealing my horn eventually.
-Alon
"Alon Wolman" <al...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:oh3d8.2036$r04.1...@news2.news.adelphia.net...
Henk Coetzee
> Upon further playing I have decided that a thin coat of good quality thin
> lacquer adds a little focus and refinement to the sound, but patina'd brass
> is nice. Just for the record, I'll be sealing my horn eventually.
Will this be clear lacquer. Just make sure the refractive index of the
lacquer is right to focus the sound.
A.W.
-Alon
"Henk Coetzee" <he...@geoscience.org.za> wrote in message
news:3C78F730...@geoscience.org.za...
Lincoln
>Upon further playing I have decided that a thin coat of good quality thin
>lacquer adds a little focus and refinement to the sound, but patina'd brass
>is nice. Just for the record, I'll be sealing my horn eventually.
>
>-Alon
You know what's weird? You are such a douchebag, and you don't even
know it.
Me
>
> You know what's weird? You are such a douchebag, and you don't even
> know it.
I was reading a research paper about this the other day. A bunch of psychology grad students ganged up and ran a two-year project to get some hard data on why stupid people stay stupid in spite of all the education available. There results can be summarized as:
Stupid people are too stupid to realize they are stupid and get help.
Socially inept people are to socially retarded to realize they are social invalids.
Alon is too much a douchbag to ever get a clue.
A. Wolman
drool
gaa gaaa gaaa gaaaaa <fart> <fart>
"Me" <jenr...@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:3C7A8171...@swbell.net...