Blue steel vs stainless steel springs

[OldBluesman]

What the big difference between the two types of springs on a sax? Sax makers
specifically point out that a sax has blue steel springs. This leads me to
beleive there's an advantage to having them. Is that one of the differences
between a pro and student horn?

"Don't gimme' no grass and call it greens"
OldBluesman

[John Ricketts]

Generally speaking, "music wire" springs are about 15 to 20% stiffer than
the same size of stainless steel spring.

HTH,
John

"OldBluesman" <sax5...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040621110815...@mb-m17.aol.com...

[Stephen Howard]

On 21 Jun 2004 15:08:15 GMT, sax5...@aol.com (OldBluesman) wrote:

>What the big difference between the two types of springs on a sax? Sax makers
>specifically point out that a sax has blue steel springs. This leads me to
>beleive there's an advantage to having them. Is that one of the differences
>between a pro and student horn?
>

The biggest difference is that blued steel springs will rust if
exposed to moisture.

Stainless springs are pretty much a permanent fixture - although they
do sometimes lose their integrity.

Blued steel springs, size for size, have more 'zip' in them - so in
order for a horn to work well with stainless springs it really ought
to be designed with them in mind.
It's a small point, but if you respring a horn with a different type
of spring the difference in the feel of the action is quite
noticeable.

Blued steel springs traditionally have a point ( hence the name
'needle springs' ) which helps to focus their energy to give you that
characteristic 'snap'.

Provided a horn is built to take stainless springs, there's no reason
at all why they can't be used on pro or student horns.

My Yamahas have stainless springs fitted, and I'm more than happy with
the feel ( having tweaked it somewhat ) - but I've played old Selmers
that have been fitted with stainless spring and the action has been
unrecoverably spongy.

Regards,

--
Stephen Howard - Woodwind repairs & period restorations
www.shwoodwind.co.uk
Emails to: showard{who is at}shwoodwind{dot}co{dot}uk

[OldBluesman]

Thanks for the info. I think I got rooked on my 1927 Beuscher tenor. The
tech changed all the blue steel to stainless and the feel was different as you
say. Also took out my metal resonators and sound to me like my tone changed.
I don't play the tenor as much as I used to. Thanks again.

[P. Tung]

Kraus Music does sell a stainless style spring that is a little different
from the run-of-the-mill stainless. They feel a little more like blued
needle.

I believe you have to be a licensed wholesaler to buy from Kraus, though.

"OldBluesman" <sax5...@aol.com> wrote in message

news:20040621124049...@mb-m17.aol.com...

[Steve Marshall]

"OldBluesman" <sax5...@aol.com> wrote

> Thanks for the info. I think I got rooked on my 1927 Beuscher tenor.
The
> tech changed all the blue steel to stainless and the feel was different as
you
> say. Also took out my metal resonators and sound to me like my tone
changed.
> I don't play the tenor as much as I used to. Thanks again.

Did it have snap in resonator/ pads before ? They shouldn't remove those, if
they can help it. If halve of them have gone then it makes sense to have the
same type of pad throughout.

I'm told stainless steel are fitted as standard in some place because of the
humidity. They should ask you or talk to you about such changes though.

Steve M

[Steve Marshall]

"Stephen Howard" <sees...@email.uk> wrote

> My Yamahas have stainless springs fitted, and I'm more than happy with
> the feel ( having tweaked it somewhat ) - but I've played old Selmers
> that have been fitted with stainless spring and the action has been
> unrecoverably spongy.

You tend to need a thicker stainless steel spring, so unless you open the
holes up you'll be fitting undersized springs - hence the spongy feel.

Steve M

[Stephen Howard]

If that were all that had been done there'd be no problem - but more
often than not the holes have been opened out to allow for fitting of
a beefier SS spring...and without a lot of faffing about it's very
hard to retro-fit the horn with appropriate blued steel springs.

SS springs tend to work better where the weight of the key is
proportionally larger ( flutes are a good example ) to the diameter of
the spring... or where the throw is longer ( such as on a low Eb key
).

It's a very great deal easier to make an undersized spring snappier
than it is to make an oversized one so.

Regards,

--
Stephen Howard - Woodwind repairs & period restorations

http://www.shwoodwind.co.uk

[Hornsmasher]

I usually use the Kraus springs that Palo mentioned, unless the customer
requests blued steel. I've used them for a couple of years now and I find
they work and feel at least as well as the blued variety, and as Palo will I
am sure affirm, spring rusting is a big problem here in New Orleans! My
customers seem to be very happy with them, as I have had no complaints about
the feel or durability.

The Kraus variety is significantly different from the stainless steel
springs sold by Ferree in that they are significantly stiffer. The Kraus
springs have no point, but it is easy to turn one with a bench motor. They
are also not pre-flared, as the Ferree springs are.

Kraus only sells to bona fide shops who can provide a tax ID or NAPBIRT
membership number.

--
Old ladies can eat more than you think.

[Toby]

I live in humid Japan and I've taken to keeping a light coating of oil on
the springs which seems to help with the rust. I'm wondering if it wouldn't
be worthwhile to dash a coat of clear acrylic on them.

Toby

"Steve Marshall" <s...@atmosBlockA.plus.com> wrote in message
news:TaIBc.18311$NK4.3...@stones.force9.net...

[John Ricketts]

fyi, spring stiffness varies as the cube of the diameter, hence if Youngs
modulus for stainless vs music wire changes by 15 to 20%, then the
equivalent diameter in stainless to give the same "feel" as music wire would
be between 1.6 and 2 times the diameter.

"Steve Marshall" <s...@atmosBlockA.plus.com> wrote in message

news:VcIBc.18313$NK4.3...@stones.force9.net...

[Hornsmasher]

I would think that the acrylic would tend to crack and flake off

[Hornsmasher]

It's been my experience with the Kraus spring that this differential does
NOT exist.

[Steve Marshall]

"Hornsmasher" <ste...@saxgourmet.com> wrote

> I would think that the acrylic would tend to crack and flake off

You can buy paint specially designed to be flexible from model toy shops.
The sort of stuff they use on radio controlled cars.
The stuff LA sax coat on the springs seems to last.

Steve M

[Toby]

Maybe a thin coat of rubber cement ??

Toby

"Hornsmasher" <ste...@saxgourmet.com> wrote in message
news:1mVBc.298$mW6...@bignews2.bellsouth.net...

[P. Tung]

I do still use blued needle, although it is indeed very wet here. If a horn
has had springs rust out in the past, definitely some extra precautions are
needed, or the new spring (even high quality ones) will rust through and
break very quickly.

I am just careful to oil inside the spring hole, and in particular at the
base of the spring, when installing.

I did have to learn this the hard way, on a horn that was GREAT but that had
been in a flood, so that literally every spring was rusted to the point of
crumbling. It was a nightmare to get the springs out, and a curse, later,
when dealing with the mystery of springs breaking off, prior to figuring out
the cause.

Some players' body chemistry also seems to be very hard on blued needle
springs. This seems to be more a factor than the humidity of the
environment, comparing pro players' horns with those of hobby players.

"Toby" <zdft...@ggol.com> wrote in message
news:40d9400b$0$94737$45be...@newscene.com...

[cnes...@gmail.com]

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