low note trouble
CinKid
usually squeak high before going low. Sometimes they sort of vibrato. Low
Bb is VERY hard to do. I can get them better if I sneak down the scale on
them. The highest Gb is not too tough for me.
I've been playing only about four months. I played in grade school in the
60's. Back then I couldn't reliably hit even a low D. My horn is a
Winston WSA 52. The mouthpiece is probably about a $15 plastic piece. I'm
using #2 reeds. Tried 1.5 but no different on the low notes.
Is there a different mouthpiece that would help?
Is there a general characteristic of mouthpieces that would make low notes
easier?
Would a heavier reed help?
Mark Bushaw
description of 'sort of vibrato.' Sometimes called 'motorboating.'
The note is trying to jump to a higher harmonic. Just like when you
press the octave key and create a hole, your low notes are seeing a
small hole somewhere up the horn. If this happens on a single note, or
two adjacent notes you can usually find the leak by looking halfway
between the faulty note and the mouthpiece. Say your C was the note that
wanted to jump the worst- look around your G# or A toneholes. If you
have several notes, say from C# on down that are all hard, you may have
several leaks.
A trip to the repair shop for a quick check shouldn't be too expensive,
and well worth it to cure your problem. Then set up a yearly (or more
often if your horn needs it) checkup. It's worth it.
Mark Bushaw
CinKid
The problem starts at C# and gets worse as I go lower. It's not that I play
these notes much but I'd like to be ABLE to. If I take in more mouthpiece
and/or drop my jaw I can get them better. But all the advice I read says I
shouldn't have to do that. But that's why I was thinking mouthpiece. And
also the memory of not being able to blow even low D when I as a kid. Like
maybe my embouchure needs a not-average mouthpiece. Of course my old horn
may have leaked too.
The problem is finding somebody around Cincinnati who can check it. I've
had bad experiences getting guitars and amps fixed around here. I kind of
checked it with a flashlight in a dark closet and couldn't see any leaks,
but of course that isn't the same as a real expert check.
I know this isn't a pro-qualilty horn but I'm having a ball with it!
Thanks again!
"Mark Bushaw" <MBu...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:k0Ive.9721$NX4....@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
Robert
is wrong with your sax. A leak can cause the problem that you describe.
The leak might be much higher up in the horn than the low notes. It
might occur at a pad, or in the neck joint, or in the bell joint, or
even in the octave key. I think that a repairman will be able to find
any problems with your saxophone, if he/she is good.
If the repairman says everything is OK and you still have the problem,
then you will have to look to other causes. First, suspect yourself.
The low notes are best played with relaxation. Easy does it -- don't
try to force them. Use low pressure wind. They will sound as easy as
any other note if you relax.
If this doesn't solve your problem, ask your friends to try out their
mouthpieces. A mouthpiece and its reeds must be matched to your sax.
Your Winston sax is not a very good sax -- and maybe the Winston
mouthpiece is worse. The sax could very well need adjustment and
repair, even if new. You don't say what mouthpiece you have, nor what
tip opening it is, nor the reeds that you play. Try some good
mouthpieces out. I would start with a Selmer, Morgan, or a Rousseau
mouthpiece if you are playing "classical" style -- as in a community
band, swing band, etc. If you have a high baffle jazz mouthpiece, you
might have trouble with the low notes as a beginner.
Some individual reeds squeak. I'm assume that you have tried multiple
reeds and your problem is the same with all of them.
As for mouthpieces that make low notes easier -- your question -- the
big barrel mouthpieces will do this. Examples are Rascher, Caravan,
Bilger, and maybe Morgan if still made. But don't go here first -- only
as a last resort -- since they are not for solving low note problems but
instead for their special tonal qualities.
Christopher von Volborth
"CinKid" <do...@wantspam.net> wrote in message
news:jhIve.108081$xm3.81145@attbi_s21...
CinKid
Music in Erlanger. That's closer to me but will keep BR in mind too.
"Christopher von Volborth" <cavol...@cinci.rr.com> wrote in message
news:lxSve.24148$IL3....@tornado.ohiordc.rr.com...
CinKid
the horn checked. But I have no trouble with notes down to C#. It's like
soon as I close the C key I get the problem. I had a Buescher back in
school, about 100 years ago, and never could play even low D on it. That
makes me wonder if my mouth, etc, needs a different mouthpiece than most
people.
The mouthpiece was stock with the horn - Hermes it says on it. I have no
clue as to it's specs. I appreciate the mouthpiece advice.
I know the Winston isn't 1st quality, but it's not a $200 Ebay special
either. I figure if I stay with sax I'll get a better one, maybe a tenor,
and keep this one for knocking around with.
I have tried many reeds, 1.5 and 2. I'm about to get some 2.5's. Not so
much cause of the low notes, but when I get fired up and blow kind of hard I
think I'm blowing the 2's flat. Thought 2.5 or even 3 might help that.
I'll get the horn checked.
"Robert" <car...@mailaka.net> wrote in message
news:Q7CdnSm2-b3...@pghconnect.com...
Marco R
Here's a quick test to see if you're G# is out of adjustment - Maybe
no one has suggested it because you're having trouble with low C too,
but it's worth a try:
Sustain an F,E, D, or low C(doesn't matter which), and while holding
the note hit the G# key. If the note cuts out or jumps up an octave
when the G# is pressed then it's not being closed sufficiently by the
right hand keys. If this is the case, simply find the adjustment
screw that closes the G# and tighten it a tiny bit. Try the test
again and see if it's improved at all. If this helps the problem,
continue tightening in slight increments between tests until the
problem is gone. Note: some older instruments dont' have adjustment
screws for the G#, in which case you should take it to a shop.
Hope this helps.
- Marco
SDA
Marco R wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Jun 2005 00:35:22 GMT, "CinKid" <do...@wantspam.net> wrote:
>
>
>>I have trouble hitting low notes clean on my alto - C# down to Bb. They
>>usually squeak high before going low. Sometimes they sort of vibrato. Low
>>Bb is VERY hard to do. I can get them better if I sneak down the scale on
>>them. The highest Gb is not too tough for me.
>>
>>I've been playing only about four months. I played in grade school in the
>>60's. Back then I couldn't reliably hit even a low D. My horn is a
>>Winston WSA 52. The mouthpiece is probably about a $15 plastic piece. I'm
>>using #2 reeds. Tried 1.5 but no different on the low notes.
>>
>>Is there a different mouthpiece that would help?
>>
>>Is there a general characteristic of mouthpieces that would make low notes
>>easier?
>>
>>Would a heavier reed help?
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> Here's a quick test to see if you're G# is out of adjustment - Maybe
> no one has suggested it because you're having trouble with low C too,
> but it's worth a try:
>
> Sustain an F,E, D, or low C(doesn't matter which), and while holding
> the note hit the G# key. If the note cuts out or jumps up an octave
> when the G# is pressed then it's not being closed sufficiently by the
> right hand keys.
good advice just need to check that the seal on low F/F# remains good
If this is the case, simply find the adjustment
> screw that closes the G# and tighten it a tiny bit. Try the test
> again and see if it's improved at all. If this helps the problem,
> continue tightening in slight increments between tests until the
> problem is gone. Note: some older instruments dont' have adjustment
> screws for the G#, in which case you should take it to a shop.
alternatively you could use my patent "microadjuster kit" - sometimes
referred to in older circles as a 'hammer and a pair of pliers'
John Pargeter
Johnnews:eRHve.108649$nG6.38306@attbi_s22...
Mark Bushaw
become stuffy or resistant. If the note tries to jump to a higher
harmonic the leak is further up the horn.
Mark Bushaw
doug
"John Pargeter" <john...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:d9r54b$2ul$1...@nwrdmz01.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
***********
Without testing your instrument I would not venture to offer any opinion
that could help.
However I will say this.
Ten to one you've got pad leak problems with the keypads in the very bottom
bell area.
However, I've known the same problem being cured with attention to the pads
around the G area. (I don't know why! but I know that Stephen will give an
authorative dissertation on your question if he reads this,)
My brand new alto bought recently saved me 200 quid due to the dealer
having it returned by two different bods and he thought he'd copped a nother
mug when I took it off his hands. Very slight adjustments to three
different keys and "voo-voo- voo|"!, - the bottom notes pour out nice and
clear.
So my answer to your three questions is, - a,No. b,No. c,No, it would
make it worse.
Not much help, am I?!.
Help yourself and get that problem cured by a proper technician even if you
have to resort to a slight reduction in your beer intake.
Doug.
**********
PT
linkage, with the LH spatula possibly creating a leak when the automatic G#
is activated.
"doug" <dougl...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message
news:42c15...@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com...
CinKid
not messing with mouthpieces when that won't help. I found a place to take
the horn for a leak check. If it checks good I'll need to get an
embouchere check next. Wonder if my dentist could do that...
My beer intake? I drink Bourbon dude! LMAO!
"doug" <dougl...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message
news:42c15...@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com...
>
denise
I had wasted my money I tried all the tips that you have been given and
nothing works. My Sax teacher has an original 54 so I put my mouthpiece on
his and bottom B still warbled. This rules out the sax but means it's me or
the mouthpiece. I also find if I push the mouthpiece right on there is no
sign of a warble but pull futher off and the worse it gets. So therefore is
it really me? I am getting mine checked out soon too. Try pushing on the
mouthpiece a lot, does it happen??
"CinKid" <do...@wantspam.net> wrote in message
news:eRHve.108649$nG6.38306@attbi_s22...
ST
players can overcome a leak, but it's still best not to have to do that.
(One excercise for breath support is to play the lower octave with the
octave key on.)
If your horn is new, there's no guarantee there's no leaks, so
definitely get it checked out if you suspect any. Sometimes leaks can
register in the funniest places. A stray bit of cotton from a stuffer
swab can do it.
OF course, then there's the time I put a wad of paper in my low C# to
keep it from sticking, and played and entire gig with it in there.
CinKid
pulling it out. I did try Runyon pad dope and it maybe helped a little for
while but hard to be sure.
I wonder if some of us just have this problem due to the shape of our
mouths, teeth, etc. I remember having this problem when I was a kid. Of
course I didn't practice much then.
You didn't waste your money. I knew I was buying a cheap mail-order Chinese
horn but I had reasons. I'm sure the Selmer is much better made and solid.
I've heard that even high quality horns, brand new, can sometimes have a
leak. I have a habit of buying instruments then fizzling out on playing
them. If I stick with sax I'm going to get a higher quality tenor. I
don't know anyone around to try my to see if they can play low.
Going to get this one checked next week. Good luck on yours!
"denise" <flapd...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:72Ywe.40678$Vo6....@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
Salvey
alto played great with my Morgan mpc, but the low notes on the SBA were
all over the place. After a complete overhaul by a top notch NYC guy,
still no improvement. I took the horn over to Bob Ackerman who checked
it out thoroughly and announced that the problem was the mouthpiece! He
set me up with one of his mouthpieces (don't ask me about the chamber,
tip opening, etc., as I don't know) and the horn plays magnifiicently.
So...follow up on the mouthpiece angle before throwing in the towel.
Sam
Grumps
denise wrote:
> I have the same problem on the Selmer 54. It cost a bomb and I worried that
> I had wasted my money I tried all the tips that you have been given and
> nothing works. My Sax teacher has an original 54 so I put my mouthpiece on
> his and bottom B still warbled. This rules out the sax but means it's me or
> the mouthpiece. I also find if I push the mouthpiece right on there is no
> sign of a warble but pull futher off and the worse it gets. So therefore is
> it really me? I am getting mine checked out soon too. Try pushing on the
> mouthpiece a lot, does it happen??
Assuming we're talking about alto here...
Low B warbles/gurgles have plagued Selmer altos for some time. It's an
acoustical issue stemming from the curve of the bow. The bow of the
Mark VI was redesigned, I believe, at least three times during it's
run. Selmer also authorized a factory fix with the installation of a
baffle in the bottom of the bow to decrease its diameter to alleviate
the problem. Remember, the new 54 is supposed to be the remake of the
VI. Some folks have Selmer altos that are fine down low; and they'll
more than likely tell you it's a leak or embouchure problem. But
here's how you'll know for sure if your sax is so afflicted. Drop a
wine cork or end cap into the bell to rest on the bottom of the bow.
If that improves your problem, then it's acoustics. There are a number
of things you can do. Play with a cork in the bell. Construct a
baffle like the Selmer fix mentioned above; a thin, flat oval piece of
brass (about 4" by 2") glued into the bottom of the bow. Find a larger
chambered mouthpiece that will push in more on the neck for proper
intonation. Make a warranty claim and/or return the saxophone.
Robert Steinberg
> Make a warranty claim and/or return the saxophone.
Gee, that sounds about as easy as returning opened software to
Microsoft.
Do you know any good stories of successful warranty claims and gurgling
low notes??
--
Robert Steinberg
MidiOpera Co.
http://www.midiopera.com
Grumps
Robert Steinberg wrote:
> Do you know any good stories of successful warranty claims and gurgling
> low notes??
I don't know how long she's had the sax, or the specific terms of her
warranty, but I believe it's implied by her post that she hasn't had
the sax for very long. As for other successful claims, I'm sure folks
return horns for all kinds of reasons. That would just be my advice
given the situation.
denise
thinking. I didn't have any problems with the cheep Arbiter I hired at first
so who knows. Thanks I'll get it checked.
Den
"ST" <trin...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:sjYwe.16862$rE6.2309@trnddc06...
Grumps
> Robert Steinberg wrote:
> > Do you know any good stories of successful warranty claims and gurgling
> > low notes??
Actually, I should add that the folks who had the Selmer authorized
bow/baffle fix for their VI's could probably be viewed as having made
successful warranty claims for gurgling low notes.
Robert Steinberg
> As for other successful claims, I'm sure folks
> return horns for all kinds of reasons.
No doubt when purchased from a store like WWBW with a liberal trial
policy after which time return is probably impossible.
As to the Selmer VI 'repair', that seems anecdotal. I've heard of Yamaha
replacing necks that were said to be bad but that's about it for
replacement of defective parts or instruments.
May I safely conclude that no is answer to my question?
Grumps
Robert Steinberg wrote:
> May I safely conclude that no is answer to my question?
I've answered your question. You just may not like said answer. Now
as the more polite folks here might put it...
Cheers
Robert Steinberg
My point is, my polite friend, sending a novice on a warrantee
goosechase is not such great advice.
Cheers to you!!
Grumps
Robert Steinberg wrote:
> My point is, my polite friend, sending a novice on a warrantee
> goosechase is not such great advice.
This "novice" just spent up to four grand on a horn that just might
have a known flaw particular to the brand. Sure, this doesn't effect
every Selmer alto, and even when present many players work around such
quirks; and yes, sometimes I'm sure it's a set-up issue. My advice was
to confirm it was an acoustical problem, and offer options accordingly.
Perhaps four grand doesn't mean as much to you, but I'd go on that
goose chase if I'd just unloaded that kind of bread on a horn that
would always keep me guessing on low B.
Stephen Howard
Sounds like a Keilwerth SX90R...
Regards,
--
Stephen Howard - Woodwind repairs & period restorations
http://www.shwoodwind.co.uk
Emails to: showard{who is at}shwoodwind{dot}co{dot}uk
Robert Steinberg
> Sounds like a Keilwerth SX90R...
I presume you are referring to the warped tone hole issue. Do you know
anyone making a successful warrantee claim for repair or replacement?
Stephen Howard
Steinberg) wrote:
>Stephen Howard <sees...@email.uk> wrote:
>
>> Sounds like a Keilwerth SX90R...
>
>I presume you are referring to the warped tone hole issue. Do you know
>anyone making a successful warrantee claim for repair or replacement?
No, not one.
Regards,
--
Stephen Howard - Woodwind repairs & period restorations
Robert Steinberg
> >I presume you are referring to the warped tone hole issue. Do you know
> >anyone making a successful warrantee claim for repair or replacement?
>
> No, not one.
Your witness, counselor Grumps
Grumps
Robert Steinberg wrote:
> Stephen Howard <sees...@email.uk> wrote:
>
> > >I presume you are referring to the warped tone hole issue. Do you know
> > >anyone making a successful warrantee claim for repair or replacement?
> >
> > No, not one.
>
> Your witness, counselor Grumps
Sorry, but I've had objected long ago if this were some sort of trial.
You'd first have to ask him if he knew of anyone making such a
warrantee claim before you'd ask if he knew of one being successful.
But go ahead and claim victory on this pointlessness, should you feel
begging the question is the proper way to go about argument. I've
already made my point. Not sure what yours is anymore.
Stephen Howard
I should clarify - my comments were confined to the SX90R issue.
I have known of clients who've made successful warranty claims, most
notably with Selmer and Yamaha horns.
In both cases the claims were in regard to premature deterioration of
the lacquer.
Both cases were resolved by the manufacturers direct.
Robert Steinberg
> But go ahead and claim victory on this pointlessness, should you feel
> begging the question is the proper way to go about argument. I've
> already made my point. Not sure what yours is anymore.
Where have I claimed victory?? If pointless, why do you feel the need to
'win'?
My point, still the same as stated, is sending a novice on a warrantee
goosechase is not the best idea I've read this week. Dropping a cork
down the bell does not indicate a manufacture's defect in a new series
just because it may have helped a problem in an instrument maunfactured
40 or 50 years ago. Perhaps the claim might begin - Dear Selmer, this
guy on a sax newsgroup told me if I drop a cork down the bell and the
low notes sound, ("for sure")I have a defective sax. Please give me a
new one.
And as the more polite members would say -
Have a nice day.
Mark Bushaw
laughs-
Pushing the mouthpiece on much more than is needed for tuning makes the
low note gurgle go away because it shifts the node points in the body.
These points are very sensitive to leaks so if you move one even a
little bit away from the leak, the gurgle will go away. Dropping a cork
in the bell does the same thing; shifts the node points. I played a 1936
Selmer BA with a cork in the bell for some time before I finally found
the leak. The horn had been to at least 4 techs who couldn't find
anything. My leak was in the body-to-bow seam. A little sealant and no
more gurgle. The Selmer re-design of the bow on the alto wasn't for the
gurgle, it was to change the tuning/placement of the toneholes. A gurgle
indicates a leak. Every time.
Grumps, I seem to remember that you had a Selmer with a gurgle; did you
ever get it fixed? If I remember correct you had that horn to many
shops and no-one found the leak, yet the cork in the bell worked. I'm
sorry if I've put the anecdote to the wrong name, but I thought it was you.
Mark Bushaw
Grumps
Mark Bushaw wrote:
> Grumps, I seem to remember that you had a Selmer with a gurgle; did you
> ever get it fixed? If I remember correct you had that horn to many
> shops and no-one found the leak, yet the cork in the bell worked. I'm
> sorry if I've put the anecdote to the wrong name, but I thought it was you.
Yeah Mark, that was me, and it was an old SBA alto that had been given
to me years ago. There's still a string at SOTW about the baffle fix I
used (Gurgle is Baffled, or something like that) in the Selmer forum.
It was a very frustrating experience for me, but I did learn quite a
bit regarding the subject. The techs I know that were active back then
(during the VI bow fix) might disagree with you regarding just what
that fix was all about. The way I had it explained, was that the node
for low B is right at the curve of the bow, and that it wasn't always a
leak that set off such a gurgle. If the measurements were off a bit
around the bend, then the note would be ripe for instability. Yeah,
when I went from shop to shop, I didn't want to believe the pessimists
out there who told me it was a design issue. Believe 'em now though,
and wouldn't hesitate to bring back a horn that had been tech checked
for leaks and still gurgled on low B.
Grumps
Mark Bushaw wrote:
> My leak was in the body-to-bow seam. A little sealant and no
> more gurgle.
That was checked and resealed in my case. No go.
> A gurgle
> indicates a leak. Every time.
In your case it might have. Don't think you can universalize the
experience. Was your bad note low B?
PT
"Robert Steinberg" <midi...@bellnotnorth.net> wrote in message
news:2005070508...@host-216-76-180-164.sua.bellsouth.net...
> Grumps <grmpy...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>> But go ahead and claim victory on this pointlessness, should you feel
>> begging the question is the proper way to go about argument. I've
>> already made my point. Not sure what yours is anymore.
>
> Where have I claimed victory?? If pointless, why do you feel the need to
> 'win'?
>
> My point, still the same as stated, is sending a novice on a warrantee
> goosechase is not the best idea I've read this week. Dropping a cork
> down the bell does not indicate a manufacture's defect in a new series
> just because it may have helped a problem in an instrument maunfactured
FWIW, I have yet to see a Selmer with a low note gurgle that was due to bore
design, but it's not uncommon for a previously undetected leak to be found
at either the tenon or body-bow joint that solves a gurgling low note.
There are some makes/models, though- SML tenors for example - that do have a
gurgling low note (usually B) as a sort of syndromatic issue.
> 40 or 50 years ago. Perhaps the claim might begin - Dear Selmer, this
> guy on a sax newsgroup told me if I drop a cork down the bell and the
> low notes sound, ("for sure")I have a defective sax. Please give me a
> new one.
Funny response from the manufacturer might be: "In that case, drop the horn
on a small, round stone, so that the bottom of the bow is dented. This
should fix the problem."
Because it probably would.
Mark Bushaw
sax was robust enough that it would take a leak to break up the sound,
but I just saw PT's comment on SML tenors having this problem. So maybe
I was too rash in my sweeping generalization.
I think we are saying about the same thing with the bow though. Two
sides to the same fix- change the bow for tuning and it moves the nodes.
Takes care of any other problems the node placement was inducing. I
really don't know which was the cart and which was the horse, but the
low notes on the MkVI were more in tune.
I'm still sad that a baffle was the best fix for your BA.
Mark
Grumps
Mark Bushaw wrote:
> I'm still sad that a baffle was the best fix for your BA.
Actually, the best fix for my SBA was an Ebay True Tone alto; the sound
of which I greatly prefer, and has now become my main alto.
I don't think I have to quote Ferron to point out that Low B is the
most difficult note to produce on a sax. Regardless of the bow
redesign issue and why that was done, there's also the fact that Selmer
was soldering baffles into the bows of their altos. How many? I don't
know, but I know why. Some of the folks here with trouble-free VI
altos might be surprised to find such a baffle upon closer inspection
of their horns. But going back to Ferron, he differentiates between
the break up from Low B to an octave above (2nd harmonic) and that from
Low B up to F# (3rd harmonic). He goes on to discuss neck/tenon fixes
for the latter case (3rd harmonic) which is quite interesting;
especially its effect on the focus of tone and the compromises
involved. Mine was up to the 2nd harmonic though, so I was stuck with
a baffle... or so I gather.
And of course, I am in no way disputing that leaks cause the vast
majority of warbles. My points all presuppose no leaks, and focus on
Low B.