Geddy Lee and Steinberger L2 - used on Signals? Probably not.
j_...@mindspring.com
i have undertaken a little project lately, since i haven't been too
busy. i am trying to find any definitive proof either way of whether
Geddy used his L2 on Signals, specifically on Digital Man.
first, the easy to check stuff - the Tourbooks.
no mention of a 'berger in the Signals tourbook, and a date given of
the construction/recording of Digital Man as March 1982 - basses used
on tour were just rics and fenders. given his later professed love of
the headless L2 and how it fit nicely with his keyboards, i would
assume that if he had the L2 by the tour he would have used it.
in the GUP tourbook, Geddy Lee gave his L2 "rookie of the year
'83-'84" which causes me to believe that Geddy didn't have the
'berger until after the recording of Signals was done.
second, the not so easy to check stuff - Interviews.
i have gone through all the guitar mag interviews with geddy from the
early/mid 80's that i have (all of 4) and the 'berger is not mentioned
until after GUP is recorded. Futhermore, in Guitar Player, April '86,
the interviewer mentions that Geddy switched to the 'berger for GUP,
BUT the interviewer/editor of the article gets a few other things
wrong, so it is possible this is wrong too. (attributes Territories
to Signals]
i think that the 'berger appeared with GUP, although my opinion of the
the Digital Man track, as a bass player, is that it sounds like it
could be a 'berger. it probably is one of his fenders, though, it is
a deeper sound than he usually gets with his rics.
any info on this would be appreciated, now my curiousity is piqued.
john turner
get rid o'them pesky underlines (jmt) and email away
Nyarla...@hotmail.com
JMT, I agree with your conclusion that Geddy probably played a
Fender on "Digital Man" -- and for _precisely_ the reasons which you
cite. In fact, I was just waiting for the right moment to state my case.
I know that Douglas Maher and a few others claim that Geddy played
a Steinberger on the track. They have yet to support that claim.
My suspicion is that some people saw Geddy use the Steinberger for
"Digital Man" _in concert_ and concluded from this that he must have
used it on the studio version of the song as well.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
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TERRORIA
>"Digital Man" _in concert_ and concluded from this that he must have
>used it on the studio version of the song as well.
>
He definitely used it by spring of 1983 as the Montreal video bootleg shows
Geddy playing a Steinberger only on "Digital Man."
A Fender Jazz could be the studio culprit though. I am not concluding anything
just yet though.
Nyarla...@hotmail.com
This question about which bass Geddy used for on the studio version
of "Digital Man" is an arcane one; most AMR participants probably have
little interest in the matter.
But just in case anyone here _is_ remotely interested in the issue,
I want to mention the following items.
Recently, in the "rec.music.makers.bass" newsgroup, in a thread
supposedly concerned with Geddy's best bass playing, Douglas Maher
claimed that Geddy used a Steinberger bass on the Signals version of
"Digital Man."
Somewhat familiar with Steinbergers (and with Geddy's public
statements about which basses he used during the relevant time), I found
this claim dubious; the lines in DM just don't sound -- to me, at any
rate -- like they were played on a Steinberger.
Doug replied that he had a copy of a magazine in which Geddy
expressly said that the bass lines in question were played on a
Steinberger.
Now, I've learned to be somewhat skeptical about Doug's claims. So
I asked him for the name and the issue of the magazine in question.
At this point, the magazine mysteriously vanished from Doug's
possession! Forget about the relevant _issue_; Doug could not so much
as remember the _name_ of the magazine_! (Doug assured me, however,
that the article in question would miraculously reappear for the honor
of being in his "ultimate" website. Of course.)
But in the meantime, the article was gone. So Doug made reference
to a new line of evidence, namely bassists in "hardcore" Rush cover
bands! According to Doug, three Rush-cover bassists answered "Yes, I
believe [Geddy] did [play a Steinberger on the studio version of DM]."
Never mind that the reply these three (unnamed) bassists supposedly
gave is rather odd (not to mention noncommittal).
Never mind that these cover-artists failed to show how _they_ knew
that Geddy used a Steinberger on the song in question. (Had they lost
their articles, as well?)
But if Doug had _really_ read an interview in which Geddy said that
he had played a Steinberger on DM, why would there be any _need_ to
consult these cover artists in the first place?
As always, Doug's claims just don't add up.
I am still open to the possibility -- however unlikely -- that
Geddy played a Steinberger on DM. But there is no doubt that I have
been LIED TO, once again, by Douglas Maher.
DavidS1037
and tell you it's not a Steinberger. 20 more seconds and I can almost surely
say it's a Fender (probably the Jazz).
Until Geddy himself tells me otherwise that's the story I'm sticking with.
Sharon and Scott
Unless Geddy has said in an interview, I would go for the Fender. It's
got that fatness to it that I think the 'berger lacks. Yes, prolly
compressed a bit, but I still think that he played a Fender. I have
previously posted that I played a 'berger copy, and found even though it's a
copy, it lacks a certain degree of fatness in the sound. I don't claim to be
a luthier, but I think it's due to there not being a whole lot of body to
resonate the sound. Could I be wrong? Maybe (more likely prolly). But I
think the Fender is the right choice....
--
-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-
Scotty Dennin
Bassist - Purple Maze©
irc.dreamnet.org port:6667 #H&J
H&J's Bar and Grill
"Where the Elite meet to Drink"
ju...@able-nl.com
_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+
DavidS1037 <david...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990605091500...@ng-cd1.aol.com...
Joseph Arnone
>
> JMT, I agree with your conclusion that Geddy probably played a
> Fender on "Digital Man" -- and for _precisely_ the reasons which you
> cite. In fact, I was just waiting for the right moment to state my case.
>
> I know that Douglas Maher and a few others claim that Geddy played
> a Steinberger on the track. They have yet to support that claim.
>
> "Digital Man" _in concert_ and concluded from this that he must have
From what I saw of the Signals concert in two different venues Geddy
brought out the Steinberger on one song only - YYZ. The rest of the
concert he used his Rick.
As for the studio version of Digital Man, that does not sound any thing
like a Steinberger. The Berger has a very distinct (somewhat artifial
IMO) sound.
Nyarla...@hotmail.com
PowrW...@aol.com wrote:
> Nyarla...@hotmail.com wrote:
> From what I saw of the Signals concert in two different venues Geddy
> brought out the Steinberger on one song only - YYZ. The rest of the
> concert he used his Rick.
> As for the studio version of Digital Man, that does not sound any
thing
> like a Steinberger. The Berger has a very distinct (somewhat artifial
> IMO) sound.
>
Again, in contributing to this thread, I _support_ the claim that
"Digital Man," from Signals, probably features a Fender. It sure as
hell doesn't sound like a 'berger to me.
But in other NGs, Doug Maher & his friend argue to the contrary --
in spite of all the opposing evidence.
When I said that, Perhaps someone saw Geddy Lee use a 'berger for a
_live_ version of DM, and concluded from that that the studio version
also featured the S., I was merely offering a possible explanation for
the view that DM, from Signals, features a 'berger.
My explanation _assumed_, of course, that the view in question was
wrong.
Geezer Butler
--
Geezer
Dig me but don't...
bury me.
<Nyarla...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:7jalja$3nr$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
EnemyWithn
>I've been playing Steinbergers for years and can definitely tell that
>one was not used in the recording of Digital Man... I think the only
>proof you need are the higher notes played around 0:21... you'd have
>to majorly damper the toward-tuning-unit pickup to get a sound that
>muddy, and if you did that the lower tones of 0:08 would not come out
>as raunchy.
" toward-tuning-unit"????
It's called a bridge, and you just lost your credibility, dude.
==========================================================
"everybody got to elevate from the norm"
Jim Geiger (not Geddy Lee)
remove "x" from address to reply
j_...@mindspring.com
>Peter Gens wrote:
>
>>I've been playing Steinbergers for years and can definitely tell that
>>one was not used in the recording of Digital Man... I think the only
>>proof you need are the higher notes played around 0:21... you'd have
>>to majorly damper the toward-tuning-unit pickup to get a sound that
>>muddy, and if you did that the lower tones of 0:08 would not come out
>>as raunchy.
>
>" toward-tuning-unit"????
>It's called a bridge, and you just lost your credibility, dude.
>
that's a bit harsh, don't you think? he may be some kind of
Steinberger fetishist. after all, the bridge on a berger does also
include the tuning mechanisms.
EnemyWithn
>Now jackass, it's not just a "bridge"... the Steinberger unit is an
>integrated bridge and tuning unit.
NO!!!
really????
godammit, I never in a million fucking years would have known that... I mean,
FUCK!!! I've owned an L2 for , oh, almost 17 goddamn years, now. You think I'd
know that by now.
So, it's a bridge with tuners on it... it's still a bridge. The way you
described it made it sound like you were a rank-amature or just a bullshit
artist(of which there are many on this NG). I've never heard anybody describe
it the way you did, and it sounded hilarious. Sorry if I pissed you off, but at
least make it sound like you know what the hell you're talking about, junior.
> You caught me. My comments are not credible and I can
>see that now. I'm glad an AOL'er set me straight.
As for the AOL quip... Who gives a flying fuck what server somebody's on? I
get it for free, and it sends my email, and lets me banter with masturbatory,
megalomaniacal, fat-ass fucksticks, like yourself. So, what else do I need?
Phillip Weiss
"Analog Kid". Were they his Rick or a Fender? Using concert equipment as
an indicator is fairly useless as Geddy used a Rick in concert for songs
from Moving Pictures which were recorded in the studio with a Fender Jazz.
j_...@mindspring.com wrote:
j_...@mindspring.com
>I'm curious as to the bass(es) that Geddy used on "Subdivisions" and
>"Analog Kid". Were they his Rick or a Fender? Using concert equipment as
>an indicator is fairly useless as Geddy used a Rick in concert for songs
>from Moving Pictures which were recorded in the studio with a Fender Jazz.
>
yeah, even the videos for some songs had different basses, like Tom
Sawyer, the studio video had him playing the rick, and he has said
that he played the Fender Jazz on that one.
i bet Analog Kid, and especially Subdivisions, are both the rick,
based on the sound, but i don't have a definitive answer. i know that
when i am recording i switch basses on some songs in the middle, so
who knows, he may be using different basses on different parts of each
song.
anything can happen
TERRORIA
Nyarla...@hotmail.com wrote:
> But in other NGs, Doug Maher & his friend argue to the contrary --
>in spite of all the opposing evidence.
Evidence? I wouldn't say it's evidence. I don't think it is a Berger on DM, but
I know by Spring of 1983 Geddy had one on the road taking it out for DM (and
YYZ like someone mentioned).
> When I said that, Perhaps someone saw Geddy Lee use a 'berger for a
>_live_ version of DM, and concluded from that that the studio version
>also featured the S., I was merely offering a possible explanation for
>the view that DM, from Signals, features a 'berger.
The tone of the bass is definitely not as thick or "runny" as the Rick or even
the Fender (maybe due to its lack of body, material or pickups?). Yet the
studio DM's bassline is memorably Rick-like. DM was one of the first songs done
for Signals and if Geddy didn;t have the Berger in 1981 or 1982 then it most
likely wasn't used on it.
Majority of bass players I talk to seem to think it was not a Berger on DM so
I am going with them.
Phillip Weiss
>
>
> yeah, even the videos for some songs had different basses, like Tom
> Sawyer, the studio video had him playing the rick, and he has said
> that he played the Fender Jazz on that one.
>
My favorite is the "Show Don't Tell" video which has Geddy playing his Jazz and
Alex playing his Gibson. ;->
>
> i bet Analog Kid, and especially Subdivisions, are both the rick,
> based on the sound, but i don't have a definitive answer. i know that
> when i am recording i switch basses on some songs in the middle, so
> who knows, he may be using different basses on different parts of each
> song.
>
Yeah, I think "Subdivisions" and "Analog Kid" are Rick songs as well, but Brown
was playing around with sounds so much in those days that the bass could have
been anything. Don't get me wrong: I think the mix on Signals is brilliant
(adds a great darkness and brooding to the songs), but the instruments tend to
bleed into each other, making distinguishing any particular instrument from the
others somewhat difficult, at least for me.
j_...@mindspring.com
>j_...@mindspring.com wrote:
>
>>
>> i bet Analog Kid, and especially Subdivisions, are both the rick,
>> based on the sound, but i don't have a definitive answer. i know that
>> when i am recording i switch basses on some songs in the middle, so
>> who knows, he may be using different basses on different parts of each
>> song.
>>
>
>Yeah, I think "Subdivisions" and "Analog Kid" are Rick songs as well, but Brown
>was playing around with sounds so much in those days that the bass could have
>been anything. Don't get me wrong: I think the mix on Signals is brilliant
>(adds a great darkness and brooding to the songs), but the instruments tend to
>bleed into each other, making distinguishing any particular instrument from the
>others somewhat difficult, at least for me.
>
to be honest, i thought the mix on signals SUCKED. the drums sound
buried, the keys are _way_ too loud, and the guitar has no body,
sounds almost like it was done through a telephone. i always thought
that the signals mix was one of the reasons Broon got his walking
papers.
listen to the remastered signals, or subdivisions on Chronicles,
muchas better imho.
Phillip Weiss
>
> to be honest, i thought the mix on signals SUCKED. the drums sound
> buried, the keys are _way_ too loud, and the guitar has no body,
> sounds almost like it was done through a telephone. i always thought
> that the signals mix was one of the reasons Broon got his walking
> papers.
>
> listen to the remastered signals, or subdivisions on Chronicles,
> muchas better imho.
>
I *am* listening to the remastered Signals. :-> The sound is richer, but the mix
that you consider to suck is still there. We will have to chalk this one up to
difference in taste. Again, I thought the mix was brilliant, an extension on the
work Brown did on Exit Stage Left (which I consider to be the greatest Rush album of
all time. Geddy's Rick and Neil's drums sound far too awesome on those ESL versions
of songs). Brown saw that the strength and uniqueness of Rush was in its rhythm
section, and that's what cuts through more than the traditional guitar as the
end-all-be-all of a rock band. Based upon comments in books and interviews, I
always assumed the reason why Brown got the boot was Alex's objections. Geddy
always seemed to be pleased with Terry Brown's work.
j_...@mindspring.com
>
>I *am* listening to the remastered Signals. :-> The sound is richer, but the mix
>that you consider to suck is still there. We will have to chalk this one up to
>difference in taste. Again, I thought the mix was brilliant, an extension on the
>work Brown did on Exit Stage Left (which I consider to be the greatest Rush album of
>all time. Geddy's Rick and Neil's drums sound far too awesome on those ESL versions
>of songs). Brown saw that the strength and uniqueness of Rush was in its rhythm
>section, and that's what cuts through more than the traditional guitar as the
>end-all-be-all of a rock band. Based upon comments in books and interviews, I
>always assumed the reason why Brown got the boot was Alex's objections. Geddy
>always seemed to be pleased with Terry Brown's work.
>
first, let me qualify my statements by saying that i enjoy signals a
lot, and when i say _SUCK_ i am implying that it sucks in context to
the mix of, say, Moving Pictures. this does not mean that i don't
enjoy the album, or love the tunes - i do, its just that, as a
semi-pro mixing engineer, i cringe a little when i hear it.
here's a little example - listen to the 1st minute or so of
Subdivisions, listen to how loud the hihats and the ride are compared
to the snare hits and the bass drum. listen to the first verse, when
geddy sings "geometric order", neil does a little shuffle on the
snare, followed by a half choked hihat, two times - the snare seems at
least to me to be about 1/2 as loud as the hihats.
now listen to Tom Sawyer. notice how beefier the snare is, how more
_EVEN_ the drum kit sounds, how the cymbals don't overpower the drums
like they do on subdivisions. granted, TS is a more "rock and roll"
type song than subdivisions, with a stronger down beat, but the
drumkit on Subdivisons just seems buried and unnatural.
listen to how buried and "support"-role the guitar is on subdivisions
as opposed to Tom Sawyer. the guitar on the refrain of subdivisions
is quieter than the hi-hats.
these are some of the reasons why i don't like the mix on signals.
i think, and this is just my opinion, that Terry Brown was going for
more of a timely, early 80's "pop" mix, and less of a "rock" mix, and
he sort of minimized the punch of the drums and maximized the keyboard
levels and frequency coverage, to lend the mix as much of a
pop-influenced sound as possible.
i agree ultimately on the taste issue, for me it's just that when
mixing, i believe one _must_ present the instruments as they really
sound, as if you were in the room with the performer, and hearing what
they played individually. this is especially relevant for the drums -
they must sound even and natural, imho. i am all for effects, and any
engineer knows that sometimes you have to modify levels, sometimes
drastically, of certain things so that they can compete with other
instruments in the finished mix, but the concept of Synthesizer Uber
Alles mixes are anathema to me.
just my verbose US$.019999457
JasonB
TERRORIA wrote:
> Nyarla...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > But in other NGs, Doug Maher & his friend argue to the contrary --
> >in spite of all the opposing evidence.
>
> Evidence? I wouldn't say it's evidence. I don't think it is a Berger on DM, but
> I know by Spring of 1983 Geddy had one on the road taking it out for DM (and
> YYZ like someone mentioned).
>
Yeah he did use his Stienberger for *at least* Digital Man and YYZ. I was at the
show in Buffalo (before Montreal in think) in 1983, and I thought he used it a few
times. Maybe he did. He defionately uses it in the Montreal boot though. That and
his Rickenbacker.
Nyarla...@hotmail.com
No one disputes that Geddy used the Steinberger on live versions of
"Digital Man." What's at issue is whether he used it on the _studio_
version of the song. My contention is that _this_ version of DM
obviously does not feature the Steinberger.
lcent...@gmail.com
> i have undertaken a little project lately, since i haven't been too
> busy. i am trying to find any definitive proof either way of whether
> Geddy used his L2 on Signals, specifically on Digital Man.
>
> first, the easy to check stuff - the Tourbooks.
>
> no mention of a 'berger in the Signals tourbook, and a date given of
> the construction/recording of Digital Man as March 1982 - basses used
> on tour were just rics and fenders. given his later professed love of
> the headless L2 and how it fit nicely with his keyboards, i would
> assume that if he had the L2 by the tour he would have used it.
>
> in the GUP tourbook, Geddy Lee gave his L2 "rookie of the year
>
> second, the not so easy to check stuff - Interviews.
>
> i have gone through all the guitar mag interviews with geddy from the
> early/mid 80's that i have (all of 4) and the 'berger is not mentioned
> until after GUP is recorded. Futhermore, in Guitar Player, April '86,
> the interviewer mentions that Geddy switched to the 'berger for GUP,
> BUT the interviewer/editor of the article gets a few other things
> wrong, so it is possible this is wrong too. (attributes Territories
> to Signals]
>
> i think that the 'berger appeared with GUP, although my opinion of the
> the Digital Man track, as a bass player, is that it sounds like it
> could be a 'berger. it probably is one of his fenders, though, it is
> a deeper sound than he usually gets with his rics.
>
> any info on this would be appreciated, now my curiousity is piqued.
>
>
From Guitar World magazine in 1984:
“I like the Steinberger a lot. I started using it just before the Signals tour, somebody said ‘try this’ and it sounded great. It’s got quite a different sound from my other bass-the bottom end is really rich, deep, it almost has a synthesized bottom end. It doesn’t sound like it should sound going by the theory that big-bodied basses have a deep, resonant sound. This has got a little plastic body with a battery in the back and the bottom end sounds rich as hell. It doesn’t sound natural, but it sounds real interesting. On some of the new songs I like the punch of the Steinberger but on some of the older things like ‘Digital Man‘ I still use the Rickenbacker. I still love the Rickenbacker and I’m actually more comfortable on it. I sort of feel obligated in a way to represent its sound on the songs that were written around it. It’s kind of nice to switch back and forth.”
Here is the link for the article: https://www.rush.com/gear/steinberger-l2/
The bass is unmistakably a Rickenbacker bass. Check out the isolated drums and bass. That is most definitely a Ricky bass. Nothing sounds like it:
https://youtu.be/cIN6Yt6iV3U