Why is Neil wearing headphones in "Red Sector A"??
D. Piller
DP
Drewe Manton
$e4fe...@news.xs4all.nl:
> Why is Neil wearing headphones during "Red Sector A"??
>
> DP
>
>
>
'Cos he's playing to a click track to keep time - it's a very precise
song with no real room for improvisation.
--
--------
Regards
Drewe
Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity
Mike Smith
> "D. Piller" <d...@piller.nl> waxed lyrical news:3f5c78dc$0$58701
> $e4fe...@news.xs4all.nl:
>
>
>>Why is Neil wearing headphones during "Red Sector A"??
>
>
> 'Cos he's playing to a click track to keep time - it's a very precise
> song with no real room for improvisation.
>
Yeah, if there were ever a Rush tune where Peart could've been replaced
by a drum machine, this was it.
--
Mike Smith
Svt300
>song with no real room for improvisation.
That and the fact that like many Rush tunes, there's a digital sequencer
playing some of the keyboard parts.
Daniel McNasty
On Mon, 8 Sep 2003, D. Piller wrote:
> Why is Neil wearing headphones during "Red Sector A"??
>
the lasers and other visual need to be accurately synced to the music, so
Neil's plays along to a click track to ensure the tempo doesn't stray so
that when Alex does his little accents, the lasers flash at the exact same
time.
BRAVADO 69
** Remove the "FUCKSPAM" in the address to email me! **
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member base...please register!
Daniel McNasty
On 8 Sep 2003, BRAVADO 69 wrote:
> Forgive my musical ignorance, but how exactly does a click-track work again?
>
click click click click click click click click click
(and so on until the end of the song)
Javier Gonzalez Nicolini
> Forgive my musical ignorance, but how exactly does a click-track work again?
Easy.
Well, most drummers can't keep time to save their lives :)
So, when you need to coordinate a song with pre-recorded effects, light
shows, etc, you need something that guarantees a steady, exact beat.
Enter the click track.
Simply put, into the drummer's headphones goes this track, recorded with
a computer/machine, that has exact beat. And it goes "click, click,
click, click..." or "toc, toc..." or (you get the idea). And THIS track
is in sync with all the effects and prerecorded parts and whatnot. So,
if the drummer plays to the beat in his headphones, he is in sync with
the whole show. And the other band members follow his beat, so everybody
is right on time.
Javier.
We had a drummer that simply could *NOT* play with a click track. Went
nuts and insisted on playing his own version of "time" :)
Jim Geiger
> a computer/machine, that has exact beat. And it goes "click, click,
> click, click..." or "toc, toc..." or (you get the idea).
Neil's headphone "click" is actually a bass drum sample.
His ingenious reasoning being that if he *doesn't* hear the click track, he
knows he is in time.
--
..............................................
Jim Geiger - MyoozishinŽ
Daniel McNasty
It's my philosophy that playing with a click track is a pretty lame choice
for live situations, and perhaps even studio work, except in the case of
Red Sector A where you need to sync with pre-recorded stuff or lights.
Unless you have really horrible time-keeping, in which case you shouldn't
be attempting to perform in public, the natural ebb and flow of tempo
makes for a more natural and pleasing song, IMO.
With the click track, as Mike Smith said, Neil may just as well have been
a drum machine.
Sixsixsixtynine
He's listening to Michael Savage, LOL...
--
http://home.att.net/~damonhynes/
Il mio altro automobile è un Barchetta rosso
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NebraskaInfoWomen/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NebraskaInfoWomenToo/
Jon Lane
"Daniel McNasty" <dsmc...@linc.cis.upenn.edu> wrote in message
news:Pine.GSO.4.44.030908...@linc.cis.upenn.edu...
> With the click track, as Mike Smith said, Neil may just as well have been
> a drum machine.
Well the time might be completely unwavering, but there is some really
interesting drumming in that song. I used to air-drum to that tune over and
over until got all the open hats right and the solo section is one of his
most inventive parts ever.
I doubt that he would have programmed a part that was as interesting.
Jonathan Lane
The Professor
news:bjj99o$lsk$1...@nntp-stjh-01-01.rogers.nf.net:
>
> "Daniel McNasty" <dsmc...@linc.cis.upenn.edu> wrote in message
> news:Pine.GSO.4.44.030908...@linc.cis.upenn.edu...
>
>> With the click track, as Mike Smith said, Neil may just as well have
>> been a drum machine.
>
> Well the time might be completely unwavering, but there is some really
> interesting drumming in that song. I used to air-drum to that tune
> over and over until got all the open hats right and the solo section
> is one of his most inventive parts ever.
Not to mention Alex's solo, which is simply extraordinary.
The Professor (that breakdown section is one of Rush's most beautiful
passages)
Dr Raven
Piller" <d...@piller.nl> somehow managed to connect with my computer in the
year 2033 and wrote:
> Why is Neil wearing headphones during "Red Sector A"??
What an excellent question! A shame we don't get more like this. I *love*
this stuff :)
Anyway, some people have indicated that Neil is listening to a click track
during Red Sector A to stay in time with lighting effects or "sequenced"
synthesizer parts.
Both answers are technically wrong.
Neil is listening to a click track, but not to stay in time with lights or a
sequencer. He is in fact, simply staying in time with a drum machine.
<pause for dramatic effect>
I have it from an excellent authority, who shall remain nameless, that
during Red Sector A, as performed during the Grace Under Pressure tour
video, Neil is actually listening to the click track from a Roland TR-808
Rhythm Composer. Why is he listening to a drum machine? Listen to the song
again. Hear that low bass part that goes BUDDA BUDDA BUDDA BUDDA? That sound
is coming from Geddy's Roland Jupiter 8 synthesizer being played by his left
hand. No, he's not actually playing all the BUDDA BUDDA notes, he's just
holding the note down and the Jupiter 8's ARPEGGIATOR is doing the BUDDA
BUDDA action. Arpeggiators are more common on older analog synths and were
really cool for creating very complex parts by just holding down a bunch of
notes and letting the arpeggiator move up and down through the notes that
are being held down and playing them in a repeating pattern. In Geddy's case
he's just holding down a single arpeggiated note so it just keeps repeating
over and over until he moves his finger to a new note. But if he's playing
this repeating note, how can Neil stay in time with it?
During the song, the Roland TR-808 drum machine is playing a simple 4/4 drum
pattern at 116 beats per second tempo. The clock output from the drum
machine is connected via a cable into a clock input on the Jupiter 8 which
is fed to the arpeggiator's clock. By switching the Jupiter 8's arpeggiator
to EXTERNAL SYNC MODE the arpeggiator's clock synchronizes to the clock
pulses being sent from the drum machine. Now when Geddy presses a note on
the Jupiter 8 it plays the BUDDA BUDDA sound but it is now in sync with the
TR-808. Neil's headphones are plugged into the TR-808 as well so he can hear
the 4/4 drum beat being played by the drum machine. This effectively puts
Geddy and Neil in sync with each other.
To better understand, watch them play the song again on the GuP tour video
if you're lucky enough to have it, or on the Chronicles DVD or video. Geddy
(or maybe Neil via a pedal with a long cable) starts the TR-808 drum machine
(you can see it sitting on a shelf just above the Jupiter 8 on Geddy's
left), and Neil then hears the drum pattern in his headphones so he can get
a feel for the tempo of the song. But the song still hasn't started and
nothing makes any sound until Geddy presses a key on the Jupiter 8
synthesizer. We hear the budda budda sound for a few measures. Geddy keeps
holding the note, then Neil counts the band in with 4 beats on his kick-bass
drum, then the song really begins with Geddy and Neil synchronized, and Alex
just locking onto Neil. If you listen very carefully you can hear the very
first couple of notes of the budda budda sound "wobble" a bit as they lock
onto the drum machine ;)
The beauty of this setup is that Neil stays in time as does Geddy, but Geddy
is still playing the bass notes instead of handing off the job to a
sequencer, and no matter what note Geddy plays on the Jupiter 8 it will be
in time with Neil, as long as Neil doesn't start to drift or the drum
machine doesn't quit in the middle of the song. That wouldn't be pretty.
Using this method though, Geddy plays the actual bass synth part all the way
through the song with just a little help from a machine to make sure he and
Neil are synched up. Yep, Neil is pretty much a drum machine for this
particular song, but keep in kind this is likely the
techno-machine-computerized sound/vibe they were going for.
There are other ways this could have been played. As already suggested, they
could have used a drum machine linked to a sequencer that plays all the
budda budda bass notes instead of Geddy, but The Boys don't seem to like
doing that. They have always liked to play as much of their music as
possible, IF possible. The only songs they really used a sequencer on were
Big Money (to play some of the intro synth parts due to their complexity and
Geddy's lack of another free limb), and The Weapon, again due to complex
synth parts that just couldn't be played by one of the other band members.
Other songs have used a sequencer such as Vital Sings and New World Man, but
it is unclear from what I've seen and heard whether the songs were sequenced
all the way from start to finish or just started and stopped during certain
sections that would repeat over and over.
Moving on from the early Signals and GuP days, this excellent authority I
mentioned earlier also provided me with a brief insight into what Rush has
been using since the Power Windows days to reproduce live some of the synth
parts that *sound* sequenced but actually aren't. Around the time of GuP and
Power Windows Geddy started experimenting with sample loops. Using an Emu II
Emulator sampler keyboard (see Ferris Buehler's Day off for an example)
Geddy was able to sample or record a small section of a repeating
synthesizer part and then "loop" it to make it repeat over and over as long
as a key on the sampler keyboard was being held down. A good example is the
repeating synth sound in Spirit of Radio when Geddy is singing "Invisible
airwaves...". If you saw Rush during the VT tour you would have seen Geddy
clapping his hands during this section, but if you had a sharp eye you would
also have seen him holding down a pedal on his MIDI footpedals, which look a
bit like organ pedals but connect via MIDI to synthesizers and samplers to
trigger sounds. The note he is pressing down in SoR is triggering a short
recorded sample of the original repeating synth part, but the sound is
configured so that by holding it down it just keeps repeating until Geddy
lifts his foot off the pedal. For more examples, listen to the beginning of
Grand Designs on PoW, or the repeating synth section near the beginning of
Prime Mover on HYF which appears several times later in the song. PoW and
HYF was when Geddy's use of the looping sample trick was really being put to
serious use. There are lots more examples throughout both albums so have
another listen and see if you can spot them. When you start listening for
these parts you really start to realize how clever Geddy (and his programmer
assistants) were in bringing more complex and modern sounding synth parts to
this period of Rush's sound while also making it possible to allow them to
play these parts live.
Speaking of live, you may be wondering how the hell Neil keeps in time with
these sample loops if he doesn't have a click track to listen to? According
to my excellent authority Neil has a real gift for locking into the tempo of
the sample loops that Geddy plays so a click track is usually unnecessary!
Neil just seems to have a knack for locking in and staying locked on. I do
recall seeing Rush during the HYF tour at Maple Leaf Gardens and during
Prime Mover Geddy triggered a sample loop late but somehow still managed to
trigger it in time with the song! So even though the loop was "out of phase"
with itself the song sounded just fine and Neil didn't even blink. I thought
I saw Neil toss Geddy a smirk when the song was over though ;) But what's
Geddy going to do? If he were to lift his foot and try to lock the loop back
in it would create a short gap that would be very noticeable, and good luck
trying to lock the loop back in while he's singing and playing bass, so he
just kept his foot down and hung on till the end of the song.
At this point in my investigation of how Rush did what they did the
excellent authority left me with a cryptic allusion as to how they are able
to reproduce some of the loops and synth parts that used to require a
sequencer or drum machine. He told me that they were pretty much using
samplers for a lot of the synth parts including parts like the budda budda
bass part in red Sector A. But even with Neil's knack for locking onto a
sample loop how could they stay in time with a sample loop for *the entire
song* if Neil doesn't have a click track to help him lock in on the tempo?
He didn't say. But he gave me a clue...
But... I will leave it to the unnamed excellent authority to explain this in
the near future. I wouldn't want to reveal all of his secrets...
Dr Raven
--
Raven's Garage
www.ravensgarage.com
Daniel McNasty
On Mon, 8 Sep 2003, Jon Lane wrote:
>
> "Daniel McNasty" <dsmc...@linc.cis.upenn.edu> wrote in message
> news:Pine.GSO.4.44.030908...@linc.cis.upenn.edu...
>
> > With the click track, as Mike Smith said, Neil may just as well have been
> > a drum machine.
>
> Well the time might be completely unwavering, but there is some really
> interesting drumming in that song. I used to air-drum to that tune over and
> over until got all the open hats right and the solo section is one of his
> most inventive parts ever.
>
tis true. A very creative bit of drum composition, involving nice
counterpoint with the open hi-hat. Just goes to show Neil isn't all about
flash and power.
BRAVADO 69
>>
Well, most drummers can't keep time to save their lives :)
So, when you need to coordinate a song with pre-recorded effects, light
shows, etc, you need something that guarantees a steady, exact beat.
Enter the click track.
Simply put, into the drummer's headphones goes this track, recorded with
a computer/machine, that has exact beat. And it goes "click, click,
click, click..." or "toc, toc..." or (you get the idea). And THIS track
is in sync with all the effects and prerecorded parts and whatnot. So,
if the drummer plays to the beat in his headphones, he is in sync with
the whole show. And the other band members follow his beat, so everybody
is right on time.>>
charlie juliet november
news:BB82B328.2903%drr...@ravensgarage.com:
<ashamed snippage>
> At this point in my investigation of how Rush did what they did the
> excellent authority left me with a cryptic allusion as to how they are
> able to reproduce some of the loops and synth parts that used to
> require a sequencer or drum machine. He told me that they were pretty
> much using samplers for a lot of the synth parts including parts like
> the budda budda bass part in red Sector A. But even with Neil's knack
> for locking onto a sample loop how could they stay in time with a
> sample loop for *the entire song* if Neil doesn't have a click track to
> help him lock in on the tempo? He didn't say. But he gave me a clue...
>
> But... I will leave it to the unnamed excellent authority to explain
> this in the near future. I wouldn't want to reveal all of his
> secrets...
>
>
<Neo>
Whoa ...
</Neo>
--
Dr Raven
p4f7b.4665$Yt....@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net, "charlie juliet
november" <authorization...@hotmail.edu> somehow managed to
connect with my computer in the year 2033 and wrote:
I know what you're thinkin'... "Why oh why didn't I take the BLUE pill?"
Fuz
> by a drum machine, this was it.
I think that's a little harsh. It's simply to keep his meter(timing) as
discussed throughout this thread. His 'feel' is what happens in between the
clicks. Yeah, the meter may be computer accurate for this song but Neil
plays across it as much as with it.
fuz
D. Piller
Dave Piller
"Dr Raven" <drr...@ravensgarage.com> wrote in message
news:BB82B328.2903%drr...@ravensgarage.com...
Rory Manton
d...@piller.nl wrote on 9/9/03 3:17 pm:
I think I understand that now I have to go round and nick Drewes DVD's so I
can see what you are talking about.
Jim Geiger
> > during Red Sector A, as performed during the Grace Under Pressure tour
> > video, Neil is actually listening to the click track from a Roland
TR-808
> > Rhythm Composer. Why is he listening to a drum machine? Listen to the
song
> > again. Hear that low bass part that goes BUDDA BUDDA BUDDA BUDDA? That
> sound
> > is coming from Geddy's Roland Jupiter 8 synthesizer being played by his
> left
> > hand.
This isn't really some sort of "secret" privileged information... Neil and
Ged described how they were using the Compurhythm to send a click to Neil's
headphones in several musician-oriented magazines during 1984...notably
Modern Drummer and Keyboard magazine.
> > Moving on from the early Signals and GuP days, this excellent authority
I
> > mentioned earlier also provided me with a brief insight into what Rush
has
> > been using since the Power Windows days to reproduce live some of the
> synth
> > parts that *sound* sequenced but actually aren't. Around the time of GuP
> and
> > Power Windows Geddy started experimenting with sample loops.
Again, this is fairly common knowledge... this is the same technology that
brings to the stage the sometimes-maligned Chorus of the Geddi.
> > I saw Neil toss Geddy a smirk when the song was over though ;) But
what's
> > Geddy going to do? If he were to lift his foot and try to lock the loop
> back
> > in it would create a short gap that would be very noticeable, and good
> luck
> > trying to lock the loop back in while he's singing and playing bass,
That would not be hard to do at all, simply stepping on the trigger to turn
it off, then picking it back up on the next measure, unless the sequence is
long and non-repeating, in which case you would be screwed, like on the
Nashville performance of "Secret Touch" where the backing vocals that come
in before the instrumental section were triggered very late, and you could
see Ged get visibly agitated.
--
..............................................
Jim Geiger - Myoozishin®
Dr Raven
Geiger" <j...@XmrwhoopeeX.com> somehow managed to connect with my computer in
the year 2033 and wrote:
>>> I have it from an excellent authority, who shall remain nameless, that
>>> during Red Sector A, as performed during the Grace Under Pressure tour
>>> video, Neil is actually listening to the click track from a Roland
> TR-808
>>> Rhythm Composer. Why is he listening to a drum machine? Listen to the
> song
>>> again. Hear that low bass part that goes BUDDA BUDDA BUDDA BUDDA? That
>> sound
>>> is coming from Geddy's Roland Jupiter 8 synthesizer being played by his
>> left
>>> hand.
>
> This isn't really some sort of "secret" privileged information... Neil and
> Ged described how they were using the Compurhythm to send a click to Neil's
> headphones in several musician-oriented magazines during 1984...notably
> Modern Drummer and Keyboard magazine.
I did not know that Jim. Are those articles online anywhere? I'd love to
check them out. The info I listed above was "secret" to me up until a few
months back when I contacted the excellent authority to confirm my own
suspicions. Judging from the emails I've received since posting my info on
the issue above I'd say a fair number of people other than myself were not
aware of how the Boys managed to stay synced for Red Sector A either. I wish
I'd saved my Keyboard magazines from back then :) Thanks for passing on the
info about the mags.
>>> Moving on from the early Signals and GuP days, this excellent authority
> I
>>> mentioned earlier also provided me with a brief insight into what Rush
> has
>>> been using since the Power Windows days to reproduce live some of the
>> synth
>>> parts that *sound* sequenced but actually aren't. Around the time of GuP
>> and
>>> Power Windows Geddy started experimenting with sample loops.
>
>
> Again, this is fairly common knowledge... this is the same technology that
> brings to the stage the sometimes-maligned Chorus of the Geddi.
Oh, the backup vocals. One vocal trick I'd like to know how they did was
back during the RTB tour when they played Subdivisions... I watched Alex
appear to speak the word "SUBDIVISIONS" into his microphone at the
appropriate moment but a sample of the original voice saying subdivisions on
the album came out instead. My guess is that they used Alex's voice as a
trigger to play a sample of the original voice. Thoughts?
>>> I saw Neil toss Geddy a smirk when the song was over though ;) But
> what's
>>> Geddy going to do? If he were to lift his foot and try to lock the loop
>> back
>>> in it would create a short gap that would be very noticeable, and good
>> luck
>>> trying to lock the loop back in while he's singing and playing bass,
>
>
> That would not be hard to do at all, simply stepping on the trigger to turn
> it off, then picking it back up on the next measure, unless the sequence is
> long and non-repeating, in which case you would be screwed, like on the
> Nashville performance of "Secret Touch" where the backing vocals that come
> in before the instrumental section were triggered very late, and you could
> see Ged get visibly agitated.
True, if it were a long sample that doesn't loop for several measures, or
even worse doesn't loop at all, then you'd be in trouble. But even if the
loop is short, and you are playing bass and trying to sing, then stepping on
a footpedal to start the loop again on the right beat might create a little
"splitbrain" anxiety ;)
Dr Raven
BB83AE75.5BBA3%ro...@griffon65.freeserve.co.uk, "Rory Manton"
<ro...@griffon65.freeserve.co.uk> somehow managed to connect with my computer
in the year 2112 and wrote:
>>>> Why is Neil wearing headphones during "Red Sector A"??
>>>
>>> What an excellent question! A shame we don't get more like this. I *love*
>>> this stuff :)
<snip>
> I think I understand that now I have to go round and nick Drewes DVD's so I
> can see what you are talking about.
It sounds pretty geeky, but I get a kick out of watching the Boys and trying
to figure out how they are playing some parts that require a little help to
play the song live ;)
Jim Geiger
> I'd saved my Keyboard magazines from back then :)
I have looked but to no avail.
I wish I had saved all my music mags, as well.
--
..............................................
Jim Geiger - MyoozishinŽ
E2
Interestingly, I think that Neil's "feel" during this song has
improved with age. I might have agreed in 1984 that you could replace
him with a drum machine for that song, but his treatment of the song
is a lot less mechanical today. It's hard to listen to old recordings
of the song after the VT tour.
Stuart R Miyasato
Dr Raven <drr...@ravensgarage.com> wrote:
>On 9/9/03 8:43 PM, in article vlsstma...@corp.supernews.com, "Jim
>Geiger" <j...@XmrwhoopeeX.com> somehow managed to connect with my computer in
>the year 2033 and wrote:
>
>> This isn't really some sort of "secret" privileged information... Neil and
>> Ged described how they were using the Compurhythm to send a click to Neil's
>> headphones in several musician-oriented magazines during 1984...notably
>> Modern Drummer and Keyboard magazine.
>
>I did not know that Jim. Are those articles online anywhere? I'd love to
>check them out. The info I listed above was "secret" to me up until a few
>months back when I contacted the excellent authority to confirm my own
>suspicions. Judging from the emails I've received since posting my info on
>the issue above I'd say a fair number of people other than myself were not
>aware of how the Boys managed to stay synced for Red Sector A either. I wish
>I'd saved my Keyboard magazines from back then :) Thanks for passing on the
>info about the mags.
Sorry for resurrecting an old thread, but I don't read this newsgroup very
often or thoroughly these days. I did track down an online copy of the
September 1984 Keyboard magazine interview which was posted to the old NMS
mailing list. <http://www.cacucc.org/~dwhite/nms/html/nms_217.htm> is the
URL. I may very well have transcribed that copy -- I have that magazine
issue (somewhere) and did submit it to the NMS back in the day. It is a
pretty fascinating read, seeing how they figured out how to essentially do
MIDI in a pre-MIDI era.
-- Stuart
jessm...@gmail.com
> Why is Neil wearing headphones during "Red Sector A"??
>
Because Bass syntheziser arpegiator is recording in sequencer and he need a click track for play in syncro.