2112 Cover And Pentagram
SEL
album cover. Yes, the vinyl. The picture in question happens to be on
the inside under the pictures of Geddy, Alex and Neil. I can see nothing
of the sort (satanic, etc.). I also have a cloth "tapestry" of the man
in star picture hanging over my closet and again can see nothing
resembling the Devil. I don't buy it.
Seth
JadePalm
covers, especailly from Rúsh
JádčPálm
SATO82
even a pentagram. A pentagram has all of the lines in between connected.
A Pentagram isn't satanic. A Baphomet is (upside down pentagram in a
circle).
Just thought I'd clear that up.
David Palmer
>First of all, I'm not satanic. the star on 2112 is not satanic. It isn't
>even a pentagram. A pentagram has all of the lines in between connected.
>A Pentagram isn't satanic. A Baphomet is (upside down pentagram in a
>circle).
>
in a student's religious development. It has nothing to do with evil.
zach gemmill
>In article <4iq0oe$2...@newsbf02.news.aol.com> sat...@aol.com (SATO82) writes:
>>First of all, I'm not satanic. the star on 2112 is not satanic. It isn't
>>even a pentagram. A pentagram has all of the lines in between connected.
>>A Pentagram isn't satanic. A Baphomet is (upside down pentagram in a
>>circle).
>>
> An upside down pentagram is not really satanic.
Point-of-view.
>Many covens use this as a symbol to represent a stage in a student's religious >development.
True. The Masons use it.
>It has nothing to do with evil.
Again, point-of-view.
Zach
Chris Williams
knows Neil put them on this bass drums to create a satanic alter because those
nasty priest of the temple of syrinx were truly bad cats.
brooce
>circle).
>Just thought I'd clear that up.
Worshipers of Baphomet would be interested to know that their
"Ass-headed God" of power in this world (and over all creatures) was
actually just an inverted pentagram.
You know not of which you speak.
Robert T. Crow
Indeed-Peart once said in an interview that the whole image of the man
in front of the "pentagram" was a symbol of man facing authority.
After he joked that it was just a symbol fo naked men, of course!
BC
Thomas F Masse
: Pentagrams are the most recognized symbols of evil in the world. Everyone
: knows Neil put them on this bass drums to create a satanic alter because those
: nasty priest of the temple of syrinx were truly bad cats.
Hmmmm...
It's getting difficult who's serious and who satirical (and who's
SATANical - heh) in this discussion, anymore. So, if the above is
satirical, cute. If it's serious:
Before you go spouting about something, know what the hell you're
talking about. All pentagrams are *not* symbols of evil. A pentagram
is a geometric shape that will exist well-enough without ties to Satan.
Most children are taught to draw "stars" by drawing five pointed stars
which can be drawn without lifting pencil from paper. Are they evil?
No, you idiot.
Aside of the obvious, if you know about religion in general and Satanic
religions in particular, you know that the symbols are *INVERTED* pentagrams.
Why? Well, it has a lot to do with the religions' other symbols - especially
the goat's head. Ever notice that a goat's head and an INVERTED pentagram
have amazingly similar characteristics?
So, that's the end of the Pentagram Theory. If you come with anything
based on fact, get back to me. Until you actually know what your talking
about, join alt.music.alanis.stupidity.
By the way, I've heard the Rolled Under Satan's Hand Theory, too, so
don't bother with that.... ^ ^ ^ ^
Lunatics...
- Da Mass
JadePalm
radiant energy therefrom
Jeffrey M Brown
reperesent power, nothing more (like Satanism), nothing
less....certainly the society Neil sought to portray in/on the album was
all about power...
J. Brown
On 22 Mar 1996, zach gemmill wrote:
> In article a...@hecate.umd.edu, dpa...@umsa.umd.edu (David Palmer) writes:
> >In article <4iq0oe$2...@newsbf02.news.aol.com> sat...@aol.com (SATO82) writes:
> >>First of all, I'm not satanic. the star on 2112 is not satanic. It isn't
> >>even a pentagram. A pentagram has all of the lines in between connected.
> >>A Pentagram isn't satanic. A Baphomet is (upside down pentagram in a
> >>circle).
> >>
Brethnach
Venus. If you chart the 12 constellations of the Zodiac like the numbers
on a clock, then plot what constellation Venus is in when it reaches
Greatest Eastern Elongation (or Greatest Western Elongation) you will see
that the same 5 constellations keep repeating. Connect the 5
constellations with lines and you have a pentagram. I have a .bmp or .gif
or .jpg that shows this. Email me if you really want it.
This symbolism was known to the ancient Aztecs among others. Some people
took the time out to watch the sky and learn the "mystic rhythms" of
nature. Too bad so many of us have lost touch. Do yourself a favor, listen
to Hemispheres, then go hug a tree.
For those of you who call the pentagram satanic: speak not from ignorance
please. Get your facts in order. Thanks.
Garet Jax
> > knows Neil put them on this bass drums to create a satanic alter because those
> > nasty priest of the temple of syrinx were truly bad cats.
Speaking from my background in pentology. That emblem that is on the 2112
cover is _not_ a pentagram, nor is it a well known symbol for evil. In
this case of the story behind the cover, the symbol does symblify evil.
Garet Jax.....the Weapons Master >>
JadePalm
Pentagram
JadePalm
> > Pentagrams are the most recognized symbols of evil in the world.
Everyone
> > knows Neil put them on this bass drums to create a satanic alter
because those
> > nasty priest of the temple of syrinx were truly bad cats.
how do you know what your talking about? true, a pentagram is used on an
alter, but NOT for satan worship.... you really should research what you
say to the world. I know, because I'm pagan, and I use the pentagram in
religious ritual... the ONE POINT UP pentagram
Dave E Grund
writes:
is clouded by their delusions of grandeur and thier anal retentivness
(i.e. anal retentive=relegious right)
Any CHILD knows that a five pointed star standing one point up is just
a fucking FIVE POINTED STAR, no hiding meaning, no backwards masking,
no brainwashing. The satanic version of this is with one point
pointing DOWN, and is supposed to look like/represent a rams head (a
goat for the stupid relegious right).
Final Verdict: Rush= A unique, un-evil band
Relegious Right=Paranoid, nothing better to do than try
and find evil in things they just simply don't like . .
Benjamin Joseph Cirillo
Bingo! The thing that always got me was that while the religious right
was going apeshit about 5 pointed stars on album covers, they forgat
that there's 50 of the little bastards on the American flag! And don't
give me that "It has to be in a circle" bullshit, because every Air
Force jet has a 5 pointed star inside a circle painted right on it!
Ben The Bassman Cirillo
zach gemmill
<<stuff annihilated>>
>>I know, because I'm pagan, and I use the pentagram in
>>religious ritual... the ONE POINT UP pentagram
>You know, the relegious right are always wrong,
"Always wrong", eh? Who's the zealot here?
>they're point of view is clouded by their delusions of grandeur
>and thier anal retentivness (i.e. anal retentive=relegious right)
Wow. Have a grudge to bear, do we? From whence does this intolerance
come?
>Any CHILD knows that a five pointed star standing one point up is just
>a fucking FIVE POINTED STAR, no hiding meaning, no backwards masking,
>no brainwashing.
Congratulations! Using your "logic", I can effectively dismiss *any*
symbolism as _meaningless_.
>The satanic version of this is with one point pointing DOWN,
>and is supposed to look like/represent a rams head...
The Masons use the "point-down" pentagram. I wonder if they worship
Satan...
(a goat for the stupid relegious right).
>Final Verdict: Rush= A unique, un-evil band
> Relegious Right=Paranoid, nothing better to do than try
> and find evil in things they just simply don't like . .
Final Verdict: If you'd spent more time awake in those primary-school
English classes instead of worrying about being intolerant and close-minded
(ironically accusing others of being the same), perhaps you'd know how
to spell.
Zach
JadePalm
OK all.... I am a witch. The Pentagram is symbolic symbol of the 5 basic
elements of life::: Water, Fire, Earth, Wind, and Thought. I understand
what this means, so before you go off blabbing about something YOU HAVE NO
FUCKING CLUE ABOUT, do some research
Tara Ralph
Could you tell me more about the Pentagram?.. I am innocent, yet
interested...
-
Thomas Steen Thomas...@prodigy.com
Ian Warford
In article <4lr22b$8...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
I have an (honest) question.
According to my (admittedly limited) knowledge of religious symbols,
is it not an important aspect of the Pentacle that it is an
unbroken path connecting 5 equally spaced points on a circle, and
eventually returning to the starting point?
If this is what a pentacle is, then does not this disqualify
the 2112 cover of being one? If you look at the symbol, you
will notice that the star is merely an outline of a five-pointed
star within a circle, rather than being a real Pentacle.
If this is the case, then is this thread not pointless, since the
symbol is not a Pentacle? Of course, there's nothing wrong with
a pointless thread, it just gets annoying seing people flame and
argue for no particularly important reason......
Of course, if there was no flaming, then it would not be Usenet.
-Ian
--
_\|/_
______ooO_(o o)_Ooo______________________________________________________
Everything (_) you've learned in school as "obvious" becomes less and
less obvious as you begin to study the universe. For example, there
are no solids in the universe. There's not even a suggestion of a solid.
There are no absolute continuums. There are no surfaces. There are no
straight lines. -- R. Buckminster Fuller //~~Ian~~Warford~~/~-,_,-~-,_,-~
~~~ iwar...@nornet.on.ca ~~~~~~~~ http://www.nornet.on.ca/~iwarford/ ~~~
j...@teletech.com
> jade...@aol.com (JadePalm) wrote:
>OK all.... I am a witch. The Pentagram is symbolic symbol of the 5 basic
>elements of life::: Water, Fire, Earth, Wind, and Thought. I understand
>what this means, so before you go off blabbing about something YOU
>HAVE NO FUCKING CLUE ABOUT, do some research
How exactly do you quality as a witch? Do witches use profanity? I'd
have thought a witch above such base behavior. ;)
Jon - j...@teletech.com
JadePalm
If this is what a pentacle is, then does not this disqualify
the 2112 cover of being one? If you look at the symbol, you
will notice that the star is merely an outline of a five-pointed
star within a circle, rather than being a real Pentacle.
A pure pentagram is 5 solid lines connecting to make 5 equally space point
with a circle to contain the 5 points.
ro...@netmanage.com
In Article<4lr22b$8...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, <jade...@aol.com> writes:
> Path:
nmb-news!psinntp!psinntp!psinntp!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf
01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
> From: jade...@aol.com (JadePalm)
> Newsgroups: alt.music.rush
> Subject: Re: 2112 Cover And Pentagram
> Date: 26 Apr 1996 13:44:43 -0400
> Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
> Lines: 4
> Sender: ro...@newsbf02.news.aol.com
> Message-ID: <4lr22b$8...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
> References: <4ksbnb$a...@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>
> Reply-To: jade...@aol.com (JadePalm)
> NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
>
> OK all.... I am a witch. The Pentagram is symbolic symbol of the 5 basic
> elements of life::: Water, Fire, Earth, Wind, and Thought. I understand
> what this means, so before you go off blabbing about something YOU HAVE NO
> FUCKING CLUE ABOUT, do some research
>
Well, I don't believe it really matters what religion you're involved with,
but it's a symbol that means many different things to many different people.
I think that without the massive use of capslock harshing on people for not
being involved in wicca or whatever it is, we should just safely determine
that different things float different peoples' boats.
So, to YOU 'a pentagram' (not the cover of the rush album) means water, fire,
earth, wind and thought... to someone else, it (a pentagram) could mean
something completely different in a different religion.
No need for research folks, it's taken care of.
Jeff X. Mink
Excerpts from netnews.alt.music.rush: 29-Apr-96 Re: 2112 Cover And
Pentagram by j...@teletech.com
> have thought a witch above such base behavior. ;)
Of course witches don't swear! They are above that. And so are
rock musicians, and especially rock musicians who are witches. And as
we all know, all members of Rush are witches, and therefore would NEVER
swear.
Mentally Yours,
Jeff Mink
Emperor of the Universe
Scourge of the Galaxy
High Priest of the Church of Harmonic Chaos
(http://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/usr/jmcg/home.html)
24 Days till Graduation!
Daniel Chen
YOU need to do some research, son. The pentagram is an "upside-down star
whose five vertices are connected by solid lines, each forming a chord
that is intersected by every other chord." That may not be the exact
geometric definition, but as I recall the red star on the cover of 2112
is NOT a pentagram because the lines are not solid. There is quite a big
difference. Believe it or not--it's your decision. However, quite a few
metal bands have real pentagrams on their CDs, for instance Slayer,
Morbid Angel, etc.
K. Norman
>> OK all.... I am a witch. The Pentagram is symbolic symbol of the 5
basic
>> elements of life::: Water, Fire, Earth, Wind, and Thought. I
understand
>> what this means, so before you go off blabbing about something YOU
HAVE NO
>>
>
>Well, I don't believe it really matters what religion you're involved
with,
It does, but that is another conversation in itslef
>but it's a symbol that means many different things to many different
people.
<snip>
>No need for research folks, it's taken care of.
>
Interesting, I thought a "pentagram" had the star pointing downwards,
not up like it is on the 2112 album.
Although I still wonder if there is any "hidden" meaning behind their
use of it. (I have heard Geddy's comments via a radio talk show, but
still wonder)
Jeff X. Mink
Excerpts from netnews.alt.music.rush: 30-Apr-96 Re: 2112 Cover And
Pentagram by K. Nor...@computek.net
> not up like it is on the 2112 album.
Nope. Normally, a pentagram points upwards, although it can be made to
point in any direction you want.
J Geoff Malta
jade...@aol.com (JadePalm) wrote:
:>OK all.... I am a witch. The Pentagram is symbolic symbol of the 5 basic
:>elements of life::: Water, Fire, Earth, Wind, and Thought. I understand
:>what this means, so before you go off blabbing about something YOU HAVE NO
:>FUCKING CLUE ABOUT, do some research
Technically it's a PENTACLE -- altho it has the same dictionary
meaning, a "pentagram" usually canotes an upside-down "black/evil"
pentacle.
Right?
----------
J. Geoff Malta
FBN graphics & publishing
POB 1596, Toms River, NJ 08754-1596
http://www.exit109.com/~jgeoff/fbn/
----------
• THE GODFATHER TRILOGY:
http://www.exit109.com/~jgeoff/godfather/
• SCARFACE:
http://www.exit109.com/~jgeoff/scarface/
• THE SUPERB SITE REGISTRY:
http://www.exit109.com/~jgeoff/fbn/superb/
• FLY BY NIGHT (homepage):
http://www.exit109.com/~jgeoff/
Incl. the band Rush, Beer, Links, and more
----------
RR Lyrae
I wear it pointing up. It is a love symbol for me... a symbol of Venus,
based on what constellation Venus is in at certain times. 5 constellations
repeat a pattern and if you graph it as a circle of constellations and
then connect them, by George you have a pentagram.
Blessed Be.
Chris
JadePalm
I wear my pentagram proudly. I'm not ashamed to admit to who or what I
am.
Christopher Martin
David Palmer wrote:
>
> In article <4iq0oe$2...@newsbf02.news.aol.com> sat...@aol.com (SATO82) writes:
> >First of all, I'm not satanic. the star on 2112 is not satanic. It isn't
> >even a pentagram. A pentagram has all of the lines in between connected.
> >A Pentagram isn't satanic. A Baphomet is (upside down pentagram in a
> >circle).
> >
> in a student's religious development. It has nothing to do with evil.
Besides, it seems mighty weak to allow some evil doer to take something
away from us. Hitler did it with the swastika - which has been used for
a very long time to represent things other than the evil those men
perpetrated on humanity. A swastika is a pretty cool thing, I always
thought. Nothing but 90 degree angles, yet still conveying so much
MOTION. It seems to hint at the cyclical nature of life - like the
snake consuming itself (I've always wondered what it would eventually
do. There is surely a point of diminishing return somewhere there,
right?) But we have given the swastika up to a gang of murderous thugs
who chose it as their icon. Just as much incomprehensible evil has been
wrought by those adorned with a crucifix, but that's still a viable
symbol, which seems pretty ironic when you consider what it represents:
a man being nailed to a timber for saying that we should be cool to each
other. I don't propose to let anyone take anything from me - especially
not a piece of geometry - a pentagram, a swastika, the elliptical form
of Rush Limbaugh's body, etc.
Pentagrams are cool. Swastikas are cool. Crucifixes are Cool.
Sometimes a pentagram is just a pentagram.
Now the naked butt in the middle of the cover is something else
entirely. jk.
Cecrle
So you claim to OWN these things in the first place?
-FC
zach gemmill
In article 5F...@ellijay.com, Christopher Martin <csma...@ellijay.com> () writes:
>David Palmer wrote:
>>
>> In article <4iq0oe$2...@newsbf02.news.aol.com> sat...@aol.com (SATO82) writes:
>> >First of all, I'm not satanic. the star on 2112 is not satanic. It isn't
>> >even a pentagram. A pentagram has all of the lines in between connected.
>> >A Pentagram isn't satanic. A Baphomet is (upside down pentagram in a
>> >circle).
Hmm. I thought a Baphomet was a small, bearded male-figure head used in
certain pagan worship rites
>> >
>> An upside down pentagram is not really satanic.
And a crucifix submerged in piss isn't sacreligious. The Satanists also
use the peace symbol as signifiying and upside-down broken cross.
Point-of-view.
>> Many covens use this as a symbol to represent a stage
>> in a student's religious development. It has nothing to do with evil.
Yes. The Masons use it. Of course, some have accused them of worshipping
The Horned One. Being secretive allows for a lot of conspiracy theories to
arise about both individuals and organizations.
>Besides, it seems mighty weak to allow some evil doer to take something
>away from us. Hitler did it with the swastika - which has been used for
>a very long time to represent things other than the evil those men
>perpetrated on humanity. A swastika is a pretty cool thing, I always
>thought. Nothing but 90 degree angles, yet still conveying so much
>MOTION. It seems to hint at the cyclical nature of life - like the
>snake consuming itself (I've always wondered what it would eventually
>do. There is surely a point of diminishing return somewhere there,
>right?) But we have given the swastika up to a gang of murderous thugs
>who chose it as their icon.
The symbol the Nazis use is a reverse image of the original.
Zach
TIMOTHY GUEGUEN
David Tremaine (cho...@io.org) wrote:
: Cecrle (mce...@sbt.infi.net) wrote:
: : >a man being nailed to a timber for saying that we should be cool to each
: : >other. I don't propose to let anyone take anything from me - especially
: : >not a piece of geometry - a pentagram, a swastika, the elliptical form
: : >of Rush Limbaugh's body, etc.
: : So you claim to OWN these things in the first place?
: Jesus Christ! What if he does? The guy is simply saying (and rightly so)
: that a swastika is not an inherently racist entity, and, to some people,
: aspects of its geometry are aesthetically pleasing. What's the big deal?
: Symbols have absolutely no meaning independent of those humans ascribe to
: them, and just because the Nazi's chose to associate the swastika with
: their evil regime does not mean that the human race should forever avoid
: the use of this symbol. That's ridiculous.
: Furthermore, the crucifix is a symbol that has associated with it an
: _extremely_ brutal history. Far more people have been murdered in the name
: of Christ than in the name of Hitler. This is not a racist statement; it
: is plain fact. Just look in any history book. So how come it's acceptable
: to adorn practically everything in sight with crucifixes but it is
: strictly forbidden to do the same with swastikas and pentagrams?
: Just remember that context is everything; and outside of a Nazi context, a
: swastika should not be the least bit threatening, just as a pentagram
: should not be threatening when used outside of an occult context.
: Let's be sensible here.
: David
Just to ad a few bits of trivia on the swastika, I've seen at least a
couple of photos of Japanese Buddhist shrines and statues that featured
the swastika. I believe it has its origins in India, birthplace of
Buddhism, in the first place. The Finnish Airforce used it as their
aircraft identifier at the beginning of World War Two, but not
surprisingly abandoned it after the war.
tim gueguen ad...@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca
Edward V Balyka
In <4rf5a7$h...@lsi.lsil.com> za...@lsil.com (zach gemmill) writes:
>
>In article 5F...@ellijay.com, Christopher Martin <csma...@ellijay.com>
() writes:
>>David Palmer wrote:
>>>
>>> In article <4iq0oe$2...@newsbf02.news.aol.com> sat...@aol.com
(SATO82) writes:
>>> >First of all, I'm not satanic. the star on 2112 is not satanic.
It isn't
>>> >even a pentagram. A pentagram has all of the lines in between
connected.
>>> >A Pentagram isn't satanic. A Baphomet is (upside down pentagram
in a
>>> >circle).
>
>Hmm. I thought a Baphomet was a small, bearded male-figure head used
in
>certain pagan worship rites
>
Templars). He/She was a hermaphroditic fertility god.
>>> An upside down pentagram is not really satanic.
>
>And a crucifix submerged in piss isn't sacreligious. The Satanists
also use the peace symbol as signifiying and upside-down broken cross.
>Point-of-view.
Satanists are idiots anyway. They skin dogs alive and do all sorts of
freaky shit. And a reversed pentagram is a symbol of the "left-hand
path." Simple lesson: the top or bottom tip of the Pentagram is
associated with the Spirit (or the Higher Self). The other points
represent Air (the Mind, sanity), Earth (the Id, survival), Fire (the
Superego, socio-sexual awareness), and Water (Ego, emotions). When the
point is on top it means the Spirit or Higher Self ruling over the base
qualities. When it is reversed (i.e., on the bottom) it signifies the
body, the impure, or the animalistic is sumpreme over the Higher Self.
>Yes. The Masons use it. Of course, some have accused them of
worshipping
>The Horned One. Being secretive allows for a lot of conspiracy
theories to
>arise about both individuals and organizations.
>
As a Mason I can clearly state without fear or hesitation that Masonry
does not involve Satan worship. All it requires is that one believe in
an intelligence behind the Universe and in the transmigration of the
soul -- whether to some heaven or other body, it does not matter. But
as I said earlier: I do not believe in beliefs. I'm just correcting
any misconceptions.
>
>The symbol the Nazis use is a reverse image of the original.
>
Actually the Swastika was used in many different angles. As to the
person who related it the Orouboros (the snake consuming its own tail),
you are exactly right -- this is exactly what it means. As for what
that means -- that would be telling. If you are interested in knowing
I am an occultist of many lifetimes (if I were to believe in
reincarnation) and know a lot of this crap. But I will repeat this
again as some people just do not understand this statement: I do not
believe in beliefs.
Sobeewan
You know, I've often run into this criticism of this album cover, and I'm
glad somebody brought it up. A pentagram is just a symbol people, just a
symbol that Christianity has labeled as "evil". If the majority of the
world were Buddhists or what have you, I'm sure no one would care. I.E.
He who wins the war, writes the books. Christianity subverted everything
else as the major industrial power religion since the middle ages and what
a shame it is. What a pathetic religion anyways, but that's another
point. The real point is that I guess my kindergarten teachers must have
been Satanists and poisoned us all with their evil when they drew
pentagrams (star as they called it) on my papers (where I copied the
letters from the alphabet down so I could learn how to write) to indicate
that I was a good boy and knew what I was doing. Oh, joy Ren!
'nuff said.
Stuart C.
Jim Mackey
> David Tremaine (cho...@io.org) wrote:
> : Cecrle (mce...@sbt.infi.net) wrote:
>
> : : >a man being nailed to a timber for saying that we should be cool to each
> : : >other. I don't propose to let anyone take anything from me - especially
> : : >not a piece of geometry - a pentagram, a swastika, the elliptical form
> : : >of Rush Limbaugh's body, etc.
>
> : : So you claim to OWN these things in the first place?
>
Was this pun intended?
- Jim
Christopher Martin
NCecrle wrote:
>
> Christopher Martin <csma...@ellijay.com> wrote:
I don't propose to let anyone take anything from me - especially
> >not a piece of geometry - a pentagram, a swastika, the elliptical form of Rush Limbaugh's body, etc.
> > >
> So you claim to OWN these things in the first place?
> -FC
What an odd question. No, I do not claim ownership of these things.
They are patterns of geometry, nothing more, and I don't see how I could
claim sole ownership of them. What I DO own is my interpretation of
them, the beauty and mysteriousness that exist in my mind when I
contemplate them. Why should I let some eveil-doer take that experience
from me? What will happen if another monster like Hitler comes along
and uses a circle as his icon? Will the whole world have to give up the
sublime beauty of the circle? You might, but I won't. It just seems so
silly to let someone take things from you - words, ideas, geometric
shapes, etc.
Christopher Martin
csma...@ellijay.com
David W. Campbell
In defense of Christianity, I hardly think it was the Christians
who designated the pentagram as "evil". In fact, I would dare say that
most of them (us) don't think of the symbol, in and of itself, as
"evil". I don't think it was the Christians who had anything to do
with the writing of the Satanic Bible and the contents therein.
Blaming Christians for the symbolism of their nemesis (i.e.Satanism) is
hardly applicable here. Okay, off the horse, Dave!
Thanks for your time,
David W. Campbell
"You can twist perception, reality won't budge."-Neil Peart
Christopher Martin
If you're talking about the Satanic Bible by Anton LaVey, then I'm
really confused. I have not yet found one thing in that work that
promotes evil - quite the opposite in fact. It exhorts us to reasoned
indulgence in the pleasures of life. It is quite rational and the
symbolism -as the text explains - only serves to satisfy man's need for
ritual. It seems that many 'christians' label things as evil when they
have little understanding of them, or when they run counter to the
christian agenda. Ayn Rand had the same fault - labelling anything she
didn't agree with as 'irrational' or 'mystical' or, her favorite:
'evil'.
Christopher Martin
csma...@ellijay.com
JadePalm
WHY DID WE REVIVE THIS ""DEAD THREAD""???
I mean, people, PULEEEEZZEEE LET THIS DIE!!! It's a pointless STUPID
argument.......
lets get back to discussing the band, and not arguing over s tupid stuff
that the band themselves has never said anything about in the first place
**************************************************************************
Jade...@AOL.COM Lover of RUSH and Good Music
"...Don't turn your back and slam the door on me......"
"...We will pay the Price, But We will not count the cost.."
"....If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice..."
**************************************************************************
JadePalm
Dude, where did you study paganism from????? obviously, someone here
has no Idea what they are talking about... please people, if your going to
comment on someone's religion, make sure you understand it COMPLETELY
before bashing?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
n article 5F...@ellijay.com, Christopher Martin <csma...@ellijay.com> ()
writes:
>David Palmer wrote:
>>
>> In article <4iq0oe$2...@newsbf02.news.aol.com> sat...@aol.com (SATO82)
writes:
>> >First of all, I'm not satanic. the star on 2112 is not satanic. It
isn't
>> >even a pentagram. A pentagram has all of the lines in between
connected.
>> >A Pentagram isn't satanic. A Baphomet is (upside down pentagram in a
>> >circle).
Hmm. I thought a Baphomet was a small, bearded male-figure head used in
certain pagan worship rites
>> >
>> An upside down pentagram is not really satanic.
And a crucifix submerged in piss isn't sacreligious. The Satanists also
use the peace symbol as signifiying and upside-down broken cross.
Point-of-view.
>> Many covens use this as a symbol to represent a stage
>> in a student's religious development. It has nothing to do with evil.
Yes. The Masons use it. Of course, some have accused them of worshipping
The Horned One. Being secretive allows for a lot of conspiracy theories to
arise about both individuals and organizations.
>Besides, it seems mighty weak to allow some evil doer to take something
>away from us. Hitler did it with the swastika - which has been used for
>a very long time to represent things other than the evil those men
>perpetrated on humanity. A swastika is a pretty cool thing, I always
>thought. Nothing but 90 degree angles, yet still conveying so much
>MOTION. It seems to hint at the cyclical nature of life - like the
>snake consuming itself (I've always wondered what it would eventually
>do. There is surely a point of diminishing return somewhere there,
>right?) But we have given the swastika up to a gang of murderous thugs
>who chose it as their icon.
The symbol the Nazis use is a reverse image of the original.
Zach
Cecrle
Christopher Martin <csma...@ellijay.com> wrote:
>NCecrle wrote:
>>
>> Christopher Martin <csma...@ellijay.com> wrote:
>
> I don't propose to let anyone take anything from me - especially
>> >not a piece of geometry - a pentagram, a swastika, the elliptical form of Rush Limbaugh's body, etc.
>> > >
>
>> So you claim to OWN these things in the first place?
>> -FC
>
>What an odd question. No, I do not claim ownership of these things.
>They are patterns of geometry, nothing more, and I don't see how I could
>claim sole ownership of them. What I DO own is my interpretation of
>them, the beauty and mysteriousness that exist in my mind when I
>contemplate them.
That is all you need, then. If that's the way you feel, than you should
ignore what others think. These shapes are used to convey emotions and
ideas, correct? So when the shape conveys another emotion, it's still
doing it's job. It's no one's fault that these things change meanings.
>Why should I let some eveil-doer take that experience
>from me? What will happen if another monster like Hitler comes along
>and uses a circle as his icon? Will the whole world have to give up the
>sublime beauty of the circle? You might, but I won't. It just seems so
>silly to let someone take things from you - words, ideas, geometric
>shapes, etc.
But they don't belong to anyone anyway. We all use them. We all know
what they mean.
-FC
GEORGE VOGT IV
On Jul 04, 1996 14:47:19 in article <Re: 2112 Cover And Pentagram>,
'Christopher Martin <csma...@ellijay.com>' wrote:
>NCecrle wrote:
>>
>> Christopher Martin <csma...@ellijay.com> wrote:
>
>I don't propose to let anyone take anything from me - especially
>> >not a piece of geometry - a pentagram, a swastika, the elliptical form
of
>Rush Limbaugh's body, etc.
>> > >
>
>> So you claim to OWN these things in the first place?
>> -FC
>
>What an odd question. No, I do not claim ownership of these things.
>They are patterns of geometry, nothing more, and I don't see how I could
>claim sole ownership of them. What I DO own is my interpretation of
>them, the beauty and mysteriousness that exist in my mind when I
>and uses a circle as his icon? Will the whole world have to give up the
>sublime beauty of the circle? You might, but I won't. It just seems so
>silly to let someone take things from you - words, ideas, geometric
>shapes, etc.
>
>
>csma...@ellijay.com
--WHAT IS THE POINT OF ANY OF THAT CRAP?
GEORGE
******************************************************
What you own is your own kingdom
What you do is your own glory
What you love is your own power
And what you live is your own story
In your head is the answer
Let it guide you along
Let your heart be the anchor
And the beat of your song
..N. Peart
Hari Floura
Don't fully understand this thread as I only caught the middle (?) of it.
But if it's about symbols and their implications to various groups who
use them. You should know that the swastika was in fact derived from an
Indian symbol(from the Hindu relegion). I belive it stands for peace. The
swastica is a mirror image of the Hindu symbol. Apparently the
Germans/Nazis were into Indian mystisism.
boys and girls together
mistake conceit for pride
-ambition for illusion
-dreams for self-delusion
boys and girls together
see what it is we lack
boys and girls together
lets paint the mirror black
paint it black
War Paint - Peart
Christropher S. Martin
Cecrle wrote:
> >
> >Let's be sensible here.
>
> him. This is a rather stupid way of looking at things. Are these things
> yours in the first place? Symbols and words have meanings. When their
> meaning shifts or changes, how can you complain? They are there to convey
> feelings, so when a swastika gives people bad ones, you can't
> complain--you have to go with the flow.
>
> -FC
And if the world's next megalomaniacial monster chooses to symbolize himself with a
circle? Will the perfection of the circle forever be off limits? The point here is
that these 'symbols' have been in existence since LONG BEFORE their 'evil'
incarnations. Pentagrams (verted or inverted), swastikas (clockwise or
counterclockwise - depending on hemisphere), Triangles, Crosses, Circles, Ellipses,
Parallelograms, etc etc; ARE GEOMETRIC devices that have been in existence for
centuries, and used to symbolize many different things. The swastika Hitler grabbed
hold of is an ancient Aryan symbol of good fortune, among other things.
Take the next step and ask yourself why the pentagram and the swastika were chosen as
icons of evil. Could it be that those who chose (they certainly didn't invent them)
them as icons realized that because of their sublime and simple powers as figures of
geometry - and in the knowledge that GEOMETRY CAN NEVER BE ERASED, people like you
would forever be faced with them - and because of the base human impulse to classify,
define, and organize everything it comes across - you would HAVE to see not the static
flow of the swastika, but Adolf Hitler.
I don't claim to own these things - but I REFUSE to allow Hitler have the power of
attaching, exclusively, a negative connotation to something that is quite cool. Now,
I would never go so far as to try and use the symbol as my company logo or anything,
because that would never work - even if I used a counterclockwise swastika or a three
legged swastika or an eighteen legged one - YOU WOULD ALWAYS SEE HITLER!!! I guess we
know who won that battle for your mind.
You claim that my way is "a stupid way of looking at things." - I would never claim
that about you or Hitler - even Hitler had the right to an opinion - just not the
right to perpetrate it on us. Saying that my way is a stupid one does little more
than reveal a definite lack of intellect. You also said, and I quote, "you just have
to go with the flow." As long as people continue to GO WITH THE FLOW - there WILL be
Hitlers and Crowleys and Ellsworth Tooheys in this world.
_____
| |
| |
-----------
| |
| |_____ ... the endless circle of life...
--
Christopher S. Martin ** A prince who himself is not a wise man,
csma...@ellijay.com ** cannot be given good counsel.
Niccolo Machiavelli - The Prince
Christropher S. Martin
The swastika was an ancient Aryan symbol for good fortune - the Aryans
invaded India and the two cultures melded in what has come to be called
the Aryan-Dravidian Process - the swastika natuarally became a part of
"Indian" culture. This is what I have read about it anyhow - and
because I have read about it, it doesn't scare me like it does Cecrle...
bryan main
>
>The swastika was an ancient Aryan symbol for good fortune - the Aryans
>invaded India and the two cultures melded in what has come to be called
>the Aryan-Dravidian Process - the swastika natuarally became a part of
>"Indian" culture. This is what I have read about it anyhow - and
>because I have read about it, it doesn't scare me like it does Cecrle...
and before this it was a family name that was put on pottery so you could
tell who made it.
Hari Floura
Thanks for the further info, I learnt about my information from my
parents.
Hari
Gregg Jaeger
> In defense of Christianity, I hardly think it was the Christians
>who designated the pentagram as "evil".
I don't know the history of it, but it sure seems like the people
most concerned about pentagrams are Christian.
>In fact, I would dare say that
>most of them (us) don't think of the symbol, in and of itself, as
>"evil".
There is quite alot of calling things in themselves "evil," like
evil music, etc. I have personally met people who went berzerk
when they heard atonal music, thinking it "evil." Yes, these people
were Christian.
> I don't think it was the Christians who had anything to do
>with the writing of the Satanic Bible and the contents therein.
>Blaming Christians for the symbolism of their nemesis (i.e.Satanism) is
>hardly applicable here. Okay, off the horse, Dave!
I don't know, but I have the distinct impression that "Satanists"
adopt symbols and other items which Christianity denounces, just
to be the opposite. Like the Black Mass, etc.
Gregg
Christropher S. Martin
GEORGE VOGT IV wrote:
> --WHAT IS THE POINT OF ANY OF THAT CRAP?
>
> GEORGE
There are people who see a pentagram and label whoever used it as
satanic. I have personally heard several people argue that Rush is
satanic solely because of the pentagram image. I was defending the use
of the pentagram - defending Rush's, or anyone else's, right to use it
without being labelled satanists. That's all. Any more questions?
PS please take the caps lock key off, we can all read the little letters
just fine, and it's much more effective if you highlight ONLY certain
words.
Roscinante
....::::!!::::::...
.:>-~`` !~ !: ``~~-:.
.:-~` !~ 4h ``~:.
.<~` !~ ~! ``!:
<~ .!~ `!. ~:.
<~ !>~~ .!~ `!. ~h
<~---------------<8k:!<!~ :x!`` ``-`~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~>
!``~<:. #$Ni:.. !WX '~ xX .:<~` '!
!> `~<:. `#$$$WX:X$WX: ' `~@$(: ..:~~` !!
!> `~<:. !$$$RUXI?~ ' <$>..:!~` <!
!! ``!> `M$$$$$$$i --""`!~ !>
!: <! ~$$M$R$$R ~ `!. :!
~: <! X$W$N!" '!: <~
`!: <~ 'R$$$$@$> <:. !: :!`
`~:. !~ .:!#$F`#$! '. `~<:. ~h .:~`
`~:. !~..>~` TF #$$! ~ `~<..~!..<~`
`!!!. .dR" #$! ..!~~!
``~--<!f .. !M. ..:>--~`
! `!?
! !!~
!!
!
! `
Bob O'Neill
The 2112 Star is not a pentagram. The lines don't cross. It's just a
five-pointed star. It's a star of magic, or something...
Bob
Chrisopher Anderson
Later,
Thor
David W. Campbell
>
>The 2112 Star is not a pentagram.
This is correct. It is called a pentaCLE.
Teo
Roscinante wrote:
>
> ....::::!!::::::...
> .:>-~`` !~ !: ``~~-:.
> .:-~` !~ 4h ``~:.
> .<~` !~ ~! ``!:
> <~ .!~ `!. ~:.
> <~ !>~~ .!~ `!. ~h
> <~---------------<8k:!<!~ :x!`` ``-`~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~>
> !``~<:. #$Ni:.. !WX '~ xX .:<~` '!
> !> `~<:. `#$$$WX:X$WX: ' `~@$(: ..:~~` !!
> !> `~<:. !$$$RUXI?~ ' <$>..:!~` <!
> !! ``!> `M$$$$$$$i --""`!~ !>
> !: <! ~$$M$R$$R ~ `!. :!
> ~: <! X$W$N!" '!: <~
> `!: <~ 'R$$$$@$> <:. !: :!`
> `~:. !~ .:!#$F`#$! '. `~<:. ~h .:~`
> `~:. !~..>~` TF #$$! ~ `~<..~!..<~`
> `!!!. .dR" #$! ..!~~!
> ``~--<!f .. !M. ..:>--~`
> ! `!?
> ! !!~
> !!
> !
> ! `
Excellent! Here's Hold Your Fire:
O
0
0
:)
,;;;;;,
,-._______, .```````. Read this http://www.netvoyage.net/~tgrupe
--' ///______] {(O)-(O)} message or
/ _/C) \ U / we'll shoot Todd Grupe DoD#4043
--/__= \ 0 / this computer tgr...@netvoyage.net
|-| geek.
Edward V Balyka
In <4rucmf$o...@newstand.syr.edu> Chrisopher Anderson <chan...@syr.edu>
writes:
>ro...@fbn.globalent.net (Roscinante) wrote:
>>
>> ....::::!!::::::...
>> .:>-~`` !~ !: ``~~-:.
>> .:-~` !~ 4h ``~:.
>> .<~` !~ ~! ``!:
>> <~ .!~ `!. ~:.
>> <~ !>~~ .!~ `!. ~h
>> <~---------------<8k:!<!~ :x!`` ``-`~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~>
>> !``~<:. #$Ni:.. !WX '~ xX .:<~` '!
>> !> `~<:. `#$$$WX:X$WX: ' `~@$(: ..:~~` !!
>> !> `~<:. !$$$RUXI?~ ' <$>..:!~` <!
>> !! ``!> `M$$$$$$$i --""`!~ !>
>> !: <! ~$$M$R$$R ~ `!. :!
>> ~: <! X$W$N!" '!: <~
>> `!: <~ 'R$$$$@$> <:. !: :!`
>> `~:. !~ .:!#$F`#$! '. `~<:. ~h .:~`
>> `~:. !~..>~` TF #$$! ~ `~<..~!..<~`
>> `!!!. .dR" #$! ..!~~!
>> ``~--<!f .. !M. ..:>--~`
>> ! `!?
>> ! !!~
>> !!
>> !
>> ! `
>>
>
>
>
>
>Later,
>
>
>Thor
>
I think to do that he might need to do some of that amphetaminne abuse
that someone mentioned in a previous post about that album... :}
Sobeewan
> Subject: Re: 2112 Cover And Pentagram
>From: gca...@ix.netcom.com(David W. Campbell )
>Date: 5 Jul 1996 04:41:52 GMT
>Message-ID: <4ri6eg$p...@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
>
> In defense of Christianity, I hardly think it was the Christians
>most of them (us) don't think of the symbol, in and of itself, as
>with the writing of the Satanic Bible and the contents therein.
>Blaming Christians for the symbolism of their nemesis (i.e.Satanism) is
>hardly applicable here. Okay, off the horse, Dave!
>
> David W. Campbell
Please, don't get me started on the detrimental effects of Christianity
and it's small, narrow-minded,
please-releive-me-of-the-guilt-I've-placed-upon-myself-by-subjecting
others-to-my-beliefs-and-force-feeding-this-crap-to-society-whether-they-l
ike-it-or-not load of fecal matter. Need I point out that Christianity, or
should I say, the trend towards Christianity, is the main reason the
classic world fell, whether anybody likes it or not. The final blow was
delt when a Christian fanatical group decided, in rebellion, to destroy
the great, ancient, and first library at Alexandria. Most of the
knowledge was lost, and the rest dwindled every other time the place was
put to the flame. I don't know, was God punishing us for desiring to
learn? Is poor little God afraid that big, big man will one day surpass
him? After the burnings, we had to wait until the Renaissance to regain
that lost knowledge, and even now, the great majority goes unheard,
unre-discovered, unread.... How far ahead would we be now if it weren't
for these morons who destroyed the first accessible, cumulative storage
house of man's knowledge, and brought on the Dark Ages as a result.
Chrisitianity's hands are so full of blood, they are stained permanently
red. No matter how much you try to clean it, they just get dirtier.
People are beginning to see that, and now we are having social
repercussions because we have forgotten (or should I say rejected) what we
are, animals with brains. Christianity rejects the physical world as
evil, so how can a Christian be at peace here. He cannot, he is
constantly on guard against his/her senses, and creates the idea of sin to
control him/her self. When man is constantly under stress, what does he
do, he runs, he hides, he does not have time to think things through.
Fortunately, there is always a small number of us who do stop running, and
see things as they actually are. Christianity's, and some other
religion's, ideas of spirituality are lies, there is only harmony within
the seeming (to you Christians and other referred to religions, that is)
chaos of nature, that is true spirituality.
Dionysianly yours (with Apollo as restraint),
Stuart C.
"The strongest and highest Will to Life does not find expression
in a miserable struggle for existence, but in a Will to War. A Will to
Power, a Will to Overpower!"--Nietzsche
"Man is not the measure of all things, man is the measurer of all
things."--Stuart C.
"I will choose free-will!"-Peart, and many, many others
JadePalm
The 2112 Star is not a pentagram. The lines don't cross. It's just a
five-pointed star. It's a star of magic, or something...
Bob
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
from unconfirmed Rumors, the star on 2112 was the symbol of the SOLAR
FEDERATION, as potrayed in the title track
Jade
JadePalm
I don't know the history of it, but it sure seems like the people
most concerned about pentagrams are Christian.
>>>>>>>
The Christians are the most paranoid about it because to them the
pentagram symbolizes devil worshippers!!! in DEFENSE of the PAGANS to
whom the pentagram origionates from, The pentagram, the 5 points,
symbolize:: Earth, Fire, Water, Life, and Spirit. The pagans ARE NOT
christians, We do not believe that Christ was any more that just a
teacher. that's all, but we DO NOT worship satan, and we don't believe
that satan, or the christian "hell" exists. that's the pagan belief. any
questions, please mail me at
Jade...@aol.com
Chris Ferguson
Considering your quote by Nietzsche, it's no wonder you have your
views against Christianity. A Will to Power?...you're no better than the
assholes that put us in the Dark Ages.
Oh, and by the way. There is one matter you forgot that separates
devout Christians like myself, and the morons who lead our world
backwards (including you!), and that is FAITH in the fact God is a good
person. If you don't have faith, then fine. Shut the fuck up. Leave us
alone. I will not have you make us responsible for past mistakes made by
those who truly do not have brains.
One more thing. You insult my faith again, and I will kick your
ass.
funkster
P.S. You want to learn something? Read the lyrics to 2112 a little
closer. See any resemblance to those who tried to destroy the music?
P.P.S. Nature is NOT chaotic. It is an order that exists within the
seeming chaos which provides assurance and normality. Next time, study
the environment and do your goddamn math homework next time.
Chris Ferguson
By the way, the above post is addressed to Stuart C. (Sobeewan).
David W. Campbell
In <4s2agl$j...@newsbf02.news.aol.com> sobe...@aol.com (Sobeewan)
writes:
>> Subject: Re: 2112 Cover And Pentagram
>>From: gca...@ix.netcom.com(David W. Campbell )
>>Date: 5 Jul 1996 04:41:52 GMT
>>Message-ID: <4ri6eg$p...@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
>>
>> In defense of Christianity, I hardly think it was the Christians
>>who designated the pentagram as "evil". In fact, I would dare say
that
>>most of them (us) don't think of the symbol, in and of itself, as
>>"evil". I don't think it was the Christians who had anything to do
>>with the writing of the Satanic Bible and the contents therein.
>>Blaming Christians for the symbolism of their nemesis (i.e.Satanism) is
>>hardly applicable here. Okay, off the horse, Dave!
>>
>> Thanks for your time,
>> David W. Campbell
>
>Please, don't get me started on the detrimental effects of Christianity
That's not what we're arguing.
>and it's small, narrow-minded,
>please-releive-me-of-the-guilt-I've-placed-upon-myself-by-subjecting
>others-to-my-beliefs-and-force-feeding-this-crap-to-society-whether-they-l
>ike-it-or-not load of fecal matter.
I'm not forcing anything on anyone. I was simply saying that its not fair to
place "blame" upon a group for the symbolism of their CounterPart :). In other
words, I don't blame any worshipers of Satan for the Cross being considered
"holy". Agreed?
>Need I point out that Christianity, or
>should I say, the trend towards Christianity, is the main reason the
>classic world fell, whether anybody likes it or not.
Which "classical" world are you speaking of?
>The final blow was
>delt when a Christian fanatical group decided, in rebellion, to destroy
>the great, ancient, and first library at Alexandria. Most of the
>knowledge was lost, and the rest dwindled every other time the place was
>put to the flame. I don't know, was God punishing us for desiring to
>learn?
Well, Christians aren't perfect (especially in their actions). I'm sure the
guys who kill abortion doctors claim to be "christian". Don't judge Christians,
dude. They aren't perfect, no matter how much the world expects of them, while
pouncing on their mistakes (past and present).
>Is poor little God afraid that big, big man will one day surpass
>him?
God is the creator, not the creation.
>After the burnings, we had to wait until the Renaissance to regain
>that lost knowledge, and even now, the great majority goes unheard,
>unre-discovered, unread.... How far ahead would we be now if it weren't
>for these morons who destroyed the first accessible, cumulative storage
>house of man's knowledge, and brought on the Dark Ages as a result.
Hey, I agree. They were morons and their actions were stupid.
>Chrisitianity's hands are so full of blood, they are stained
>permanently red. No matter how much you try to clean it, they just get
>dirtier. People are beginning to see that,
What exactly are you referring to?
>and now we are having social
>repercussions because we have forgotten (or should I say rejected) what we
>are, animals with brains.
I haven't rejected that. That's exactly what we are. ALL of us!
>Christianity rejects the physical world as evil,
That is absolutely (100%) untrue!
Christianity believes that the world (just like our flesh) is born to sin.
>so how can a Christian be at peace here.
Grace beyond all understanding.
>He cannot, he is
>constantly on guard against his/her senses, and creates the idea of sin to
>control him/her self.
Christianity did not create sin.
>When man is constantly under stress, what does he
>do, he runs, he hides, he does not have time to think things through.
>Fortunately, there is always a small number of us who do stop running, and
>see things as they actually are.
The bible asks man to give his burdens to Christ.
>Christianity's, and some other
>religion's, ideas of spirituality are lies,
Christianity isn't a religion, it's a relationship.
>there is only harmony within
Harmony is repentence(man) and forgiveness(God).
>Dionysianly yours (with Apollo as restraint),
> "The strongest and highest Will to Life does not find
expression
>in a miserable struggle for existence, but in a Will to War. A Will
to
>Power, a Will to Overpower!"--Nietzsche
>
>"Man is not the measure of all things, man is the measurer of all
>things."--Stuart C.
>
>"I will choose free-will!"-Peart, and many, many others
1 Corinthians Chp1 vs:20-25--The Holy Spirit.
David W. Campbell
In <31E5E8...@inforamp.net> Chris Ferguson <funk...@inforamp.net>
writes:
My apologies to ALL who read this! This person is NOT a representative
of Christianity! As Christianity is defined as Christ-like, I cannot
see anything "Christian" about this gentleman. Please ignore (if
possible) and try not to let this post affect your perceptions of
Christians.
To the poster, (funkster, I believe); Get saved!
David W. Campbell
zach gemmill
In article l...@newsbf02.news.aol.com, jade...@aol.com (JadePalm) writes:
>I don't know the history of it, but it sure seems like the people
>most concerned about pentagrams are Christian.
>
>
>>>>>>>>
>
>The Christians are the most paranoid about it because to them the
>pentagram symbolizes devil worshippers!!! in DEFENSE of the PAGANS to
>whom the pentagram origionates from, The pentagram, the 5 points,
>symbolize:: Earth, Fire, Water, Life, and Spirit. The pagans ARE NOT
>christians, We do not believe that Christ was any more that just a
>teacher.
Then by that same token he was both a lunatic and a liar.
Zach
zach gemmill
In article j...@newsbf02.news.aol.com, sobe...@aol.com (Sobeewan) writes:
>> Subject: Re: 2112 Cover And Pentagram
>>From: gca...@ix.netcom.com(David W. Campbell )
>>Date: 5 Jul 1996 04:41:52 GMT
>>Message-ID: <4ri6eg$p...@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
>>
>> In defense of Christianity, I hardly think it was the Christians
>>who designated the pentagram as "evil". In fact, I would dare say that
>>most of them (us) don't think of the symbol, in and of itself, as
>>"evil". I don't think it was the Christians who had anything to do
>>with the writing of the Satanic Bible and the contents therein.
>>Blaming Christians for the symbolism of their nemesis (i.e.Satanism) is
>>hardly applicable here. Okay, off the horse, Dave!
>>
>> Thanks for your time,
>> David W. Campbell
>
>Please, don't get me started on the detrimental effects of Christianity
>please-releive-me-of-the-guilt-I've-placed-upon-myself-by-subjecting
>others-to-my-beliefs-and-force-feeding-this-crap-to-society-whether-they-l
>should I say, the trend towards Christianity, is the main reason the
>delt when a Christian fanatical group decided, in rebellion, to destroy
>the great, ancient, and first library at Alexandria. Most of the
>knowledge was lost, and the rest dwindled every other time the place was
>put to the flame. I don't know, was God punishing us for desiring to
>him?
As I was reading this, I thought to myself that you must read too much
Nietzsche. Then I saw your .sig...
>After the burnings, we had to wait until the Renaissance to regain
>that lost knowledge, and even now, the great majority goes unheard,
>unre-discovered, unread.... How far ahead would we be now if it weren't
>for these morons who destroyed the first accessible, cumulative storage
>house of man's knowledge, and brought on the Dark Ages as a result.
>Chrisitianity's hands are so full of blood, they are stained permanently
>red. No matter how much you try to clean it, they just get dirtier.
So you belong to the Christianity-and-other-religions-have-been-
responsible-for-more-death-and-other-atrocities-than-any-other-thing-in
history camp? If you do, how ignorant.
>People are beginning to see that, and now we are having social
>repercussions because we have forgotten (or should I say rejected) what we
>are, animals with brains.
They are? Just now? Did I miss this poll that was taken?
>Christianity rejects the physical world as evil,
Not quite true. It acknowledges that fact that human pride and arrogance are
responsible for the condition of this world, and that pain and suffering
have been the result throughout history and always will be. It rejects
the result of this, and gives a way out (that, in principle, any good
atheist could never accept, for obvious reasons). To address the whole
issue--- in the past, Christianity was corrupted, and was the ideological
vehicle whereby much pain and suffering and death was unleashed upon
many people. Of course, this is only one case. A whole lot more of this
tragedy was caused in the name of other ideologies that had nothing to
do with organized religion. Heck, one doesn't even have to travel out of
this century to see that!
>so how can a Christian be at peace here.
Unknowingly, and in another sense, that is insightful.
>He cannot, he is constantly on guard against his/her senses, and creates
>the idea of sin to control him/her self.
Then tell me why non-Christians enact and follow social laws?
>When man is constantly under stress, what does he
>do, he runs, he hides, he does not have time to think things through.
Hmm, here we go with the Nietzsche again...
>Fortunately, there is always a small number of us who do stop running, and
>see things as they actually are.
Who are _you_ to claim the exclusive right to understand reality?
>Christianity's, and some other religion's, ideas of spirituality are lies,
Yes, in your opinion. Of course, you can in no way prove this.
>there is only harmony within the seeming (to you Christians and other referred to >religions, that is) chaos of nature, that is true spirituality.
According to what standard? What you believe in your mind? I have my own
mind, thank you.
> "The strongest and highest Will to Life does not find expression
>in a miserable struggle for existence, but in a Will to War. A Will to
>Power, a Will to Overpower!"--Nietzsche
"Every man (and woman) for himself!" (I'm translating it for the vast
majority of you who haven't rejected the spirituality of lies and grown
to that point where you can see things they way they really are.)
Zach
Sobeewan
> Subject: Re: 2112 Cover And Pentagram
>Date: 13 Jul 1996 03:53:44 GMT
>Message-ID: <4s76k8$o...@lsi.lsil.com>
>As I was reading this, I thought to myself that you must read too much
>Nietzsche. Then I saw your .sig...
Your damn skippy I do, but you can never read enough of anything that
makes sense or fires the imagination. I'm sure you can relate to that.
>So you belong to the Christianity-and-other-religions-have-been-
>responsible-for-more-death-and-other-atrocities-than-any-other-thing-in
>history camp? If you do, how ignorant.
Ignorant, I think not, dear sir. A religion is generally catagorized as a
system of beliefs that a particular group of people follow, correct? And
if you use that definition, it is easy to see why your above statement is
so ludicrous. If it's not easy, let me try and explain. When group A has
a particular idea, and group B has a different idea, but there ideas don't
allow them any form of compromises, then they argue indefinitely. Then
things get heated between the two, because they are both going to stick to
their guns (so to speak) Usually, one group is larger than another, and
decides that if it can't sway the other side to believe as it does, it
wages war on them in order to silence their opposition. It then states
that it went to war to gain peace (go figure). The question is, who
gained the peace, the victors, of course. And that just points you back
to my original post from there.
>They are? Just now? Did I miss this poll that was taken?
The increasing rise in social disorder is directly related to a form of
restraint, or control that has failed. Christianity is supposed to be the
dominant force of restraint and control in the U.S., is it not? Then, why
has it failed if it is so perfect? You are right, though, in pointing out
that people have not begun to see this. Yet, that is. People have begun
reacting to this failure and loss of restraining force. The government
has consistently tried to step in and become the controlling and
restraining force as well. But, they, like Christianity seems to forget
sometimes (although it preaches it all the time), restraint and control
come from the individual, not from a group. When that particular is not
paid heed to, failure is eminent.
>Not quite true. It acknowledges that fact that human pride and arrogance
>are
>responsible for the condition of this world, and that pain and suffering
>have been the result throughout history and always will be. It rejects
>the result of this, and gives a way out (that, in principle, any good
>atheist could never accept, for obvious reasons). To address the whole
>issue--- in the past, Christianity was corrupted, and was the ideological
>vehicle whereby much pain and suffering and death was unleashed upon
>many people. Of course, this is only one case. A whole lot more of this
>tragedy was caused in the name of other ideologies that had nothing to
>do with organized religion. Heck, one doesn't even have to travel out of
>this century to see that!
How do you figure that human pride and arrogance are responsible. Is it
not more plausible that group pride, or group arrogance are more
responsible, and it just so happens that they pick a figure-head to focus
their gaze on? It does not reject that result, it embraces it with
welcome arms, it needs it. Without pain and suffering, Christianity has
no basis at all, and no followers I might add. Only one case, a case that
has lasted into the present day, look around. Maybe a whole lot more, but
none so ideologically false and weak, except a few. Anyway, most of these
are done by organizations, which in their own way are organized religions.
No, one does not have to travel far to see it, I can drive down the block
and see many churches telling people to stay away from the sinners, the
pagans, the evil ones, although their beliefs tell them to go among us and
talk to us--another in a multitude of contradictions.
> >so how can a Christian be at peace here.
>Unknowingly, and in another sense, that is insightful.
Isn't though, I didn't realize when I wrote it that it could be taken both
ways.
>>He cannot, he is constantly on guard against his/her senses, and creates
>>the idea of sin to control him/her self.
>Then tell me why non-Christians enact and follow social laws?
Sin is associated with guilt, social laws are associated with do's and
don'ts of not pissing other people off. Your statement has no logical
foundation, since your comparison-by-definitions is incorrect.
>>When man is constantly under stress, what does he
>>do, he runs, he hides, he does not have time to think things through.
>Hmm, here we go with the Nietzsche again...
But at least I'm not running scared. (The Weapon--read the lyrics will
you?)
>>Fortunately, there is always a small number of us who do stop running,
and
>>see things as they actually are.
>Who are _you_ to claim the exclusive right to understand reality?
I am what I am, and do not claim an exclusive right to understand reality.
The only exclusive right that I claim is the right to claim such a thing
if I wish. Get it?
>>Christianity's, and some other religion's, ideas of spirituality are
lies,
>Yes, in your opinion. Of course, you can in no way prove this.
Is not a lie a contradiction? Is not your religion, or relationship as
you call it, full of contradictions with the natural and scientific world
around you? Like I've said before--If it looks like a dog, barks like a
dog, bites like a dog, smells like a dog, and feels like a dog...it's
probably a dog. Acknowledged?
>>there is only harmony within the seeming (to you Christians and other
>>referred to religions, that is) chaos of nature, that is true
spirituality.
>According to what standard? What you believe in your mind? I have my >own
mind, thank you.
According to the standards set by Nature, if you are out of balance with
nature, you are in error, and will be eliminated. Are you sure you have
your own mind, don't you understand you are nothing but a cow in a herd.
Quit following and strike out on your own path. Doubt your God for a
while and take a good hard look at the world around you and the knowledge
around you, then come to a decision. And then, doubt the decision and so
on. Not to say that you have to change your mind all the time, but it's
good to cycle everything through the sifter everyonce in a while to keep
it clean.
>> "The strongest and highest Will to Life does not find
expression
>>in a miserable struggle for existence, but in a Will to War. A Will to
>>Power, a Will to Overpower!"--Nietzsche
>"Every man (and woman) for himself!" (I'm translating it for the vast
>majority of you who haven't rejected the spirituality of lies and grown
>to that point where you can see things they way they really are.)
Exactly, Zach, exactly. Is that not, in the end, the way it is. We cover
it up with niceties, and such, but the spirit to conquer is still there.
How do you explain sports, or competitions of any kind? What is the point
if not to win? And don't hand me that bull about it's not if you win or
lose, but how you play the game crap. That's just nice comfort for the
loser. The point is to win, how else do you succeed, by stagnating and
losing, I think not!!
>Zach
Thank you Zach, damn I love to argue. It must be that Will to Power
again, huh?
Sobeewan
>I'm not forcing anything on anyone.
That is an ignorant statement. Christianity forces its dogma on everyone
through the medium of a society that has pathetically accepted it as
salvation. For instance, anytime I announce my belief against God, I am
told that I'm going to Hell forever to be burned alive and be put through
all sorts of excruciating pain. I laugh now, but if I was a child, on the
verge of understanding the consequences of pain, how fearful that would
be. So, since everyone is a child, they are forced by one way or another,
to hear this threat, it scares them into believing in a God that cannot
exist.
>I don't blame any worshipers of Satan for the Cross being considered
>"holy". Agreed?
Why would you, that concept of the cross being holy conforms to your
religion.
>Which classical world are you speaking of?
The B.C. days, as you would say, the glory days of man's spirit to
explore, create, compete, win. It fades after the rise of early
Christianity, as I discussed earlier.
>Well, Christians aren't perfect (especially in their actions). I'm sure
the
>guys who kill abortion doctors claim to be "christian". Don't judge
>Christians,
>dude. They aren't perfect, no matter how much the world expects of
>them, while
>pouncing on their mistakes (past and present).
I know they aren't, who is.
Why not judge Christians, they pre-judged me before I was even born (the
idea that we are born sinners, is this not judging?).
>God is the creator, not the creation.
Then God is a fool, why would he willingly create something imperfect that
he knew was going to fail? So that someone would have to look to him for
guidance; so that by virtue of his superiority, he becomes master. What
an insecure diety God is, to desire-- no, to need, our approval and
submission.
>Hey, I agree. They were morons and their actions were stupid.
At least we agree here, although morons is really too light a term for
them.
>What exactly are you referring to?
Christianity, because of its incessant need to force its dogma and beliefs
on other peoples, has more times than not been the justification for the
spilling of blood. The past 500 yrs of the western world's history is
record of that. Look how many grand civilizations were destroyed in the
name of God, look how many peoples were decimated because they believed
something different and were labelled as pagans, and devil worshippers.
Look at Ireland, Christians can't even agree among themselves!! The
Crusades, to mention another wonderful set of stupid wars waged by
Christians in the name of their God. Any other questions?
>I haven't rejected that. That's exactly what we are. ALL of us!
Then act like an animal, instead of something so special as to require
universal attention (A Christian)
.
>>Christianity rejects the physical world as evil,
>That is absolutely (100%) untrue!
>Christianity believes that the world (just like our flesh) is born to
sin.
Is this not what I just said? Is not all sin evil? Why do you spout
contradictions? Ah, but your beliefs are full of contradictions, why
should you not be?
>Grace beyond all understanding.
So far beyond understanding as to be completely illusory, or self-made
delusion.
>Christianity did not create sin.
Make a bet?
>The bible asks man to give his burdens to Christ.
No, the Bible says the real Christians should give up all of their
belongings and go forth to teach the people what Jesus said. The Bible
does not say let's take peoples money and build really big and grand
churches and put ourselves on pedestals while still claiming our humility
in the eyes of the Lord. Nor did the Bible say let's see how many people
we can save for Jesus. I don't blame Jesus, I blame his followers. If he
even existed, he was not a god, just a wise man.
>Christianity isn't a religion, it's a relationship.
That is a lousy excuse to escape the fact that Christianity is an
organized religion, and most organized religions have a bad habit of being
very corrupt.
>Harmony is repentence(man) and forgiveness(God).
How weak minded. Harmony is acceptance of what you are, not what you are
supposed to be according to some document. Use your senses, relish them,
relish their bodily effects, instead of rejecting their effects. If you
are in harmony, you need, nor desire forgiveness. For then, you are your
god, and why should a god seek forgiveness?
I say again---
"The strongest and highest Will to Life does not find expression
in a miserable struggle for existence, but in a Will to War. A Will
to Power, a Will to Overpower!"--Nietzsche
"Man is not the measure of all things, man is the measurer of all
>things."--Stuart C.
"I will choose free-will!"-Peart, and many, many others
Stuart C.
Sobeewan
>Subject: Re: 2112 Cover And Pentagram
>Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 22:53:19 -0700
>Message-ID: <31E5E8...@inforamp.net>
>Considering your quote by Nietzsche, it's no wonder you have your
>views against Christianity. A Will to Power?...you're no better than the
>assholes that put us in the Dark Ages.
Asshole? Strong words from such a 'devout' Christian. You prove my
points about Christianity for me, thank you.
>Oh, and by the way. There is one matter you forgot that separates
>devout Christians like myself, and the morons who lead our world
>backwards (including you!), and that is FAITH in the fact God is a good
>person.
You demote your God to the rank of person, quit projecting. Anytime you
reject what is real and natural (the real world and the sensations you
receive from it) from what is artificial and unnatural (the ideal of God
is artificial and unnatural in that rejects the real world of what you
know and feel in favor for an illusory and imaginary world that cannot be
proven to be in existence except through a book written by man called a
Bible).
>If you don't have faith, then fine. Shut the fuck up. Leave us
alone.
So let me get this straight, I'm not free to express my beliefs if they
are different than yours, and you assume that everyone reading this post
believes as you do. Great, and I lead people backwards??
>I will not have you making us responsible for past mistakes made by those
>who truly do not have brains.
Isn't it your own Bible that tells you that the sins of the father are the
sins of the sons? Anyways, why not, it's the same narrow-minded attitude
that caused them to do what they did that affects you today. If it looks
like a dog, barks like a dog, bites like a dog, smells like a dog, and
feels like a dog, chances are...it's a dog. Get my point?
>One more thing. You insult my faith again, and I will kick your
>ass.
What happened to turn the other cheek, grasshopper? I will continue to
insult your faith (if it really is your faith) as I wish. But, I would
prefer to think of it more as constructive criticism.
>funkster
>P.S. You want to learn something? Read the lyrics to 2112 a little
>closer. See any resemblance to those who tried to destroy the music?
P.S. Do you want to learn something? Read the lyrics for the intro and
compare them to the Biblical passage. "And the meek shall inherit the
Earth..." The Elder Race left so they wouldn't have to deal with "the
meek". And "the meek" created the temples (i.e. church?) to control the
populace with superstition and lies about themselves and their heritage
(the degrading of the Elder Race as a failure etc..). Who are these
"meek"? People like yourselves. If you are a Christian, you are supposed
to be meek. In fact, that's a key principle of being a true Christian, is
it not?
>P.P.S. Nature is NOT chaotic. It is an order that exists within the
>seeming chaos which provides assurance and normality. Next time, study
>the environment and do your goddamn math homework next time.
I did say that it was seemingly chaotic, meaning that it appears that way,
but is not. Read again, and do your literary homework next time before
you write me about things like that. By the way, what is normal and who
defines it? Nature does not provide assurance, by the way, we provide the
assurance. Nature only exists. In fact, on the contrary, in Nature,
there is no real assurance. Perhaps it is you who should crawl out of
your shell and study the environment yourself, grasshopper.
Gotta go,
Stuart C.\
Keith Z. Leonard
wonderful language for a christian, do you repent with that mouth?
come on guys, let's keep the fight clean.
Keith Z. Leonard
Thai boxing ref, maybe phil ref too.
David W. Campbell
>According to the standards set by Nature, if you are out of balance with
>nature, you are in error, and will be eliminated. Are you sure you have
>your own mind, don't you understand you are nothing but a cow in a herd.
>Quit following and strike out on your own path. Doubt your God for a
>while and take a good hard look at the world around you and the knowledge
>around you, then come to a decision. And then, doubt the decision and so
>on. Not to say that you have to change your mind all the time, but it's
>good to cycle everything through the sifter everyonce in a while to keep
>it clean.
>
>Exactly, Zach, exactly. Is that not, in the end, the way it is. We
cover
>it up with niceties, and such, but the spirit to conquer is still
there.
>How do you explain sports, or competitions of any kind? What is the
point
>if not to win? And don't hand me that bull about it's not if you win
or
>lose, but how you play the game crap. That's just nice comfort for
the
>loser. The point is to win, how else do you succeed, by stagnating
and
>losing, I think not!!
>
You don't believe in absolutes, do you Stuart? I'm just asking
honestly here, no need to get offended.
David W. Campbell
Chris Ferguson
So, Nietzsche...
What's wrong with the word asshole? Everybody has an ass,
everybody has a hole. You really think that's a strong word? I thought
you had stronger for those who tore apart our intellectual records.
As for me "demoting" God to a person, there is nothing wrong with
that. God is whoever we envision Him to be. Be it a man, woman, person of
color, or anything. That is what gives us peace. Do you honestly think
the real world gives anybody peace? When I read the newspaper everyday,
it certainly doesn't me. Therefore, the sensations I receive from the
real world are not satisfactory.
This is where FAITH comes in. I have FAITH that God exists, that
God created us (not necessarily in seven days), and that the Bible is a
record, written by several different people, and obviously altered over
the thousands of years, to be that of the life of the people who followed
God and his ways. Illusion and imagination are all within the eye of the
beholder. Some eyes have the faith, some don't.
Now, I know that inconsistencies within the Roman Catholic
Church. I know the problems of misinformation that exist. I was nearly
sucked into believing that it was all a sham. But you see, I learned to
separate the earthly happenings with the faith that I have that God is
good. Faith is a funny thing that either you have or you don't. I'm still
learning now; I'm still a cynical bastard.
The real world is an extremely cynical place, and Nietzsche was
an extremely cynical person, and extremely ruthless (as you know). I
expect that the morons who developed the Dark Ages were, without knowing
it, following Nietzsches docterines. "The Will to Power" and "'Thus shall
it be!'" were common battle cries for most Popes in that era. I fully
understand and recognize that.
However, know this: we are not inferior. We are not "slave
morality" waiting to be pounced upon. The reason why I told you to shut
the fuck up was because you were not respecting my, or anyone elses,
beliefs. Yes, express them, I don't care. Hell, I'll even encourage it;
read a guy named Arthur Kroker from Concordia University. Interesting
stuff.
But, DO NOT insult us. Your criticism is not constructive, it is
hurtful. And don't tell me not to read them, either. I certainly do not
impose my faith on you. I read and understand Nietzsche, Kroker, etc.
That is to learn. I would like to think I am not ignorant. Which is why I
said some have faith, some don't. I accept that some don't.
Yes, Christians are supposed to turn the other cheek - this one
does not. Never learned to, and I guess that's a flaw I have. But I live
with it.
Oh, and the sins of our fathers are NOT on our sons - there is a
passage in the New Testament where Jesus comments on that. Besides,
Baptism at birth is the ceremony to forgive the "original sin" we believe
we are born with.
As for 2112, it is very simple to take that situation, and meld
it to any faith and their story. Whether it be Christianity, Bhuddism,
Nietzsche, it's almost all the same shit, just different toilets. That's
what makes Pearts writings magical - they can be attributed to everyone.
Free will? Yes, the freedom to believe in any deity or philosophy one
wants. And the freedom to express it. Not impose it.
As well, your definition of a Christian is like you being one of
the Priests of the Temples of Syrinx (did I spell that right? loaned out
my CD). They expected their followers to be meek, and thus obey them -
not the deity they were supposed to. That is the problem with the
hierarchy in the Roman Catholic Church these days that disillusions so
many out of practice. The one who discovered the "music" was persecuted
by earthly minds, earthly cynicism. Which of the groups, the Elders or
the Priests, are truly Nietzsche-like?
As for chaos theory, I talk of purely the mathematic and
scientific theory which sort of explains nature in that it is ordered.
Normal is what each of us feels is normal to be stable. Yes, there is no
real assurance from Nature, only because we live as human beings who
abuse Nature to the point where it fights back.
I hope this clarifies. I apologize if I was rude before. I enjoy
intellectual discussion, especially when it concerns my favorite band.
Besides, I'm a drummer. I couldn't write lyrics for shit.
funkster
Gordon McFee
Sobeewan (sobe...@aol.com) writes:
>>Considering your quote by Nietzsche, it's no wonder you have your
>>views against Christianity. A Will to Power?...you're no better than the
>>assholes that put us in the Dark Ages.
>
> Asshole? Strong words from such a 'devout' Christian. You prove my
> points about Christianity for me, thank you.
And Stuart, you prove your ignorance about Christianity. Since
when is a bodily orifice "taking God's name in vain"? I'm sure you'd much
prefer for all Christians to be meek lambs lying down so that your
Nietschzian <G> hordes can slaughter them but unfortunately God gave his
little people teeth to bite with.
BTW I'm no longer a Christian. But my background and education
hopefully gives me an insight to make non-judgemental statements about it.
Before you bash it, understand it.
As an aside, Mao Zedong (Tse-Tung for you oldies) killed something like
90 million under his atheist socialist reign. Stalin killed upwards of 30
million and we all know about Hitler.
>>If you don't have faith, then fine. Shut the fuck up. Leave us
>> alone.
> So let me get this straight, I'm not free to express my beliefs if they
> are different than yours, and you assume that everyone reading this post
> believes as you do. Great, and I lead people backwards??
Isn't this why we're taught as kids (at least I was) that you
don't discuss politics or religion in mixed company?
>>I will not have you making us responsible for past mistakes made by those
>>who truly do not have brains.
> Isn't it your own Bible that tells you that the sins of the father are the
> sins of the sons? Anyways, why not, it's the same narrow-minded attitude
> that caused them to do what they did that affects you today. If it looks
> like a dog, barks like a dog, bites like a dog, smells like a dog, and
> feels like a dog, chances are...it's a dog. Get my point?
Feels like a dog? At least you didn't say "tastes like a dog" :).
It is patently unfair to hold a religious responsible for the deeds of its
followers at some indeterminate point in the past. Say, wasn't Hitler an
admirer of Nietschze?
Don't take this personally. Just some minor points :)
--
"To seek the sacred river Alph, and walk the caves of ice..." - Rush
"Ashes and Diamonds,Foe and Friend/We were all equal in the end." -Pink Floyd
"The sands of time were eroded by the river of constant change." - Genesis
"Others steal your thoughts they're not confined within your mind"-DreamTheater
Gordon McFee
Sobeewan (sobe...@aol.com) writes:
> Look at Ireland, Christians can't even agree among themselves!! The
> Crusades, to mention another wonderful set of stupid wars waged by
> Christians in the name of their God. Any other questions?
These are all political conflicts waged for economic gain. Saying
the Crusades were wasged in the name of God is like saying that the USA
went into Kuwait to restore democracy.
The Roman Empire was led by an idiot pope who rounded up the
stupidest barons he could find (remember, this was the feudal period) to
go off raiding through the Middle East for Jerusalem. They died :). That
was the first Crusade.
Most of the ones that followed were similar shams perpetrated for
economic gain, in particular the Fourth which was initiated by the
not-so-religious great city-states of Verona, Genoa etc. (in Italy) with
absolutely no religious goals at all. Not to mention the Children's
Crusade which was a scam used to capture youths into child slavery.
>>Christianity did not create sin.
>
> Make a bet?
I will! The concept of sin has been around since at least 1'000
years before Christ was even born. Evil acts have been performed for
thousands of years (we can assume) and even the earliest religions
(Judaism, Zoroastrianism, Hinduism) acknowledge some acts as "wrong" and
"sinful".
So Stuart, what do I win? If I could pick my prize, it would be an
end to this silly thread as both of you spread intolerance for opposing
views around the Net.
Edward V Balyka
I forget where this quote came from but it is thoroughly appropriate:
"The delusion of one man is neurosis. The delusion of many is
religion."
I belive it is from Henry James, the father of American Psychiatry.
Edward V Balyka
In <31E8AF...@inforamp.net> Chris Ferguson <funk...@inforamp.net>
writes:
>So, Nietzsche...
>
> What's wrong with the word asshole? Everybody has an ass,
>everybody has a hole. You really think that's a strong word? I thought
>you had stronger for those who tore apart our intellectual records.
> As for me "demoting" God to a person, there is nothing wrong with
>that. God is whoever we envision Him to be. Be it a man, woman, person
of
>color, or anything. That is what gives us peace. Do you honestly think
>the real world gives anybody peace? When I read the newspaper
everyday,
>it certainly doesn't me. Therefore, the sensations I receive from the
>real world are not satisfactory.
Ahh. So God is an excuse to avoid realities???
> This is where FAITH comes in. I have FAITH that God exists, that
>God created us (not necessarily in seven days), and that the Bible is
a
>record, written by several different people, and obviously altered
over
>the thousands of years, to be that of the life of the people who
followed
>God and his ways. Illusion and imagination are all within the eye of
the
>beholder. Some eyes have the faith, some don't.
The Old Testament from the Creation to the Deluge is actually an edited
account of the Seven Tablets of Creation of the Sumerians. Not
surprizing as Abraham (the Father of Judaism) was Sumerian. He took
one of the Sumerian gods -- Tammuz, a fertility god of Spring who was
growing unpopular with the Sumerian -- and its cult out of Sumer. He
led them to Canaan. This makes Judaism a Sumerian cult. As
Christianity believes that all of the Sumerian gods are not real this
makes its own god not real. Q.E.D. Therefore your own religion
invalidates your god.
Not meant as a flame but as a some history combined with Christian
thought.
Chris Ferguson
Edward V Balyka wrote:
> First off, how can your God be a person?
Who knows? I certainly don't have the answer. That's only my perception.
To others, He doesn't exist, and still others, as a Spirit.
> Second: if God is good why is it smiting and destroying everything in
> the Old Testament? Why would it create a Hell to punish those who
> refuse to believe in it?
Well, it depends on the perception of Hell. Some priests feel it is not a
necessarily bad place, just a place where you are not with God after
death.
You must be referring to the wars the Israelites had with the various
cultures they encountered, and the various natural disasters. In a way,
this is why I view God as a person. God has made mistakes. Remember the
flood? The wars and the reasons behind them I don't know too much about.
> Third, it was the Christians that led us into the Dark Ages, killing at
> least 9,000,000 (Yes, nine million) people, mostly the old, the young,
> and the defenseless during the "holy" Inquisition.
Yes, that's true. An earlier post by a non-Catholic suggested not to
blame the messengers. Do you honestly think I like the Pope or the
Vatican? I may pray for them, but I don't necessarily agree with them. I
try to remember what it is my beliefs are for, plus the fact I have Faith
in God.
> Fourth, your religion is purely subjective. My lack of religion is
> purely subjective. The man that you attack, his beliefs are purely
> subjective. Everyone's beliefs are ENTIRELY subjective.
True. Subjective thoughts and feelings, while not agreed upon, can be
accepted as a belief the other is entitled to express.
> Last, it is precise this kind of response to assaults on beliefs (which
> are merely ego-constructs created to deal with fear) that has led to
> Christianity's (Communism's, Nazism's, Islam's, etc.) bloody nature.
> By believing that you possess the absolute Truth you rail against
> though who refuse to be bound by it.
Yah, it was an assault, and a pretty mean one at that. I agree with the
fact on dealing with fear. In an earlier post, I mentioned how I do not
like the cynicism of this world. Yes, religion can be a form of escape.
As to a bloody nature, that depends on the nature of the person who
believes the belief. Example: the difference between Stuart C.
(Sobeewan) and Hitler; I doubt Sobeewan wants to kill anybody, and
follows similar concepts to what Hitler studied.
> >P.P.S. Nature is NOT chaotic. It is an order that exists within the
> >seeming chaos which provides assurance and normality.
>
> The Second Law of Thermodynamics would tend to disagree with you. As
> would almost any serious study of human nature or human history.
> Things have a tendency to move toward entropy. Everything degrades,
> even the quality of Usenet threads. Be that as it may, the only points
> of Order in Life are Birth and Death -- they are the only things that
> are certain.
I always thought (bear with me I'm not a chemistry major) that reactions,
and discharges and so-forth always wanted to move to the lowest
common-denominator (ie. O2 and H2 ignited form H2O, a much more stable
compound). To me, that seems like order from chaos.
Besides, fractal geometry is like that.
funkster
Edward V Balyka
>
>Considering your quote by Nietzsche, it's no wonder you have your
>views against Christianity. A Will to Power?...you're no better than
the
>assholes that put us in the Dark Ages.
>
>devout Christians like myself, and the morons who lead our world
>backwards (including you!), and that is FAITH in the fact God is a
good
>person. If you don't have faith, then fine. Shut the fuck up. Leave us
>alone. I will not have you make us responsible for past mistakes made
by
>those who truly do not have brains.
>
> One more thing. You insult my faith again, and I will kick your
>ass.
>
>funkster
>
First off, how can your God be a person?
Second: if God is good why is it smiting and destroying everything in
the Old Testament? Why would it create a Hell to punish those who
refuse to believe in it?
Third, it was the Christians that led us into the Dark Ages, killing at
least 9,000,000 (Yes, nine million) people, mostly the old, the young,
and the defenseless during the "holy" Inquisition.
Fourth, your religion is purely subjective. My lack of religion is
purely subjective. The man that you attack, his beliefs are purely
subjective. Everyone's beliefs are ENTIRELY subjective.
Last, it is precise this kind of response to assaults on beliefs (which
are merely ego-constructs created to deal with fear) that has led to
Christianity's (Communism's, Nazism's, Islam's, etc.) bloody nature.
By believing that you possess the absolute Truth you rail against
though who refuse to be bound by it.
>P.P.S. Nature is NOT chaotic. It is an order that exists within the
>seeming chaos which provides assurance and normality. Next time, study
Chris Ferguson
Edward V Balyka wrote:
> The Old Testament from the Creation to the Deluge is actually an edited
> account of the Seven Tablets of Creation of the Sumerians. Not
> surprizing as Abraham (the Father of Judaism) was Sumerian. He took
> one of the Sumerian gods -- Tammuz, a fertility god of Spring who was
> growing unpopular with the Sumerian -- and its cult out of Sumer. He
> led them to Canaan. This makes Judaism a Sumerian cult. As
> Christianity believes that all of the Sumerian gods are not real this
> makes its own god not real. Q.E.D. Therefore your own religion
> invalidates your god.
>
> Not meant as a flame but as a some history combined with Christian
> thought.
Excellent piece of history. Thank you. The way I read that though, is
that if the Sumer god Tazzum was unpopular with the Sumerian people,
could it be that it was unpopular with the other gods as well. Possible
arrangement as to the invalidation problem? Who knows.
Anyways, will check.
funkster
zach gemmill
In article 3...@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com, wynd...@ix.netcom.com(Edward V Balyka) writes:
>
> The Old Testament from the Creation to the Deluge is actually an edited
> account of the Seven Tablets of Creation of the Sumerians. Not
> surprizing as Abraham (the Father of Judaism) was Sumerian.
Abraham was the father of the Jews, not of Judaism--- big difference.
> He took one of the Sumerian gods -- Tammuz, a fertility god of Spring who was
> growing unpopular with the Sumerian -- and its cult out of Sumer. He
> led them to Canaan. This makes Judaism a Sumerian cult.
Even if the assumption that Yahweh is another version of Tammuz were correct,
Judaism _still_ isn't a Sumerian cult (whatever that means). If you knew
the origins *and* development of Judaism, you wouldn't be making such
assertions.
> As Christianity believes that all of the Sumerian gods are not real this
> makes its own god not real. Q.E.D. Therefore your own religion
>invalidates your god.
In the first place, "false" does not equal "unreal". In the second place,
your conclusion is completely illogical.
Zach
Sobeewan
>The Old Testament from the Creation to the Deluge is actually an edited
>account of the Seven Tablets of Creation of the Sumerians. Not
>one of the Sumerian gods -- Tammuz, a fertility god of Spring who was
>growing unpopular with the Sumerian -- and its cult out of Sumer. He
>Christianity believes that all of the Sumerian gods are not real this
>makes its own god not real. Q.E.D. Therefore your own religion
>invalidates your god.
Thanks, Ed, I was going to cover that eventually, but I needed to refresh
myself on a few things first. A good video series on this subject would
be Testament, first section mainly. Were not the Laws of Hammurabbi
(spelling?) the basis for the commandments as well? The Sumerian story of
Creation is the basis for Genesis. Sounds like winner, hat's off to you
Ed.
Later,
Stuart
Edward V Balyka
In <4shpjo$e...@lsi.lsil.com> za...@lsil.com (zach gemmill) writes:
>
>In article 3...@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com, wynd...@ix.netcom.com(Edward V
Balyka) writes:
>>
edited
>> account of the Seven Tablets of Creation of the Sumerians. Not
>> surprizing as Abraham (the Father of Judaism) was Sumerian.
>
>
Christianity. Abraham "began" this religion and is therefore its
father. To argue otherwise is to split the barest hairs.
>> He took one of the Sumerian gods -- Tammuz, a fertility god of
Spring who was
>> growing unpopular with the Sumerian -- and its cult out of Sumer.
He
>> led them to Canaan. This makes Judaism a Sumerian cult.
>
>Even if the assumption that Yahweh is another version of Tammuz were
correct,
>Judaism _still_ isn't a Sumerian cult (whatever that means). If you
knew
>the origins *and* development of Judaism, you wouldn't be making such
>assertions.
>
I know the origins and development quite well, thank you very much. I
used to go regularly to shule and I went to Hebrew school. I just read
more than was expected of me. Judaism developed in response to certain
conditions and evolved as new ones arose. For instance when the First
Temple was destroyed Yahweh went from all powerful to mysterious.
Please think about that for one moment.
>> As Christianity believes that all of the Sumerian gods are not real
this
>> makes its own god not real. Q.E.D. Therefore your own religion
>>invalidates your god.
>
>In the first place, "false" does not equal "unreal". In the second
place,
>your conclusion is completely illogical.
>
>Zach
>
Then if the other gods were real (BTW, in the 10 Commandments the Jews
were allowed to have multiple gods, just none of them could be more
important to a Jew than Yahweh, the Tetragramaton) then there would
have been no reason for the "holy" Inqusition and destruction of
thousands of competing faiths. At which point do you distinguish false
and unreal. If you do not then you cannot call me illogical. If you
hold false and unreal as seperate I would like to hear where they
diverge.
Also, how is my conclusion illogical? Is is only because it violates
your subjective faith? Prove the invalid nature of my arguement before
you belligerently term my conclusions false without stating why.
Perhaps the facts interfere with your ability to do so? As a friend of
mine is fond of saying, "never let the facts interfere with an
opinion."
Sobeewan
>Example: the difference between Stuart C.
>(Sobeewan) and Hitler; I doubt Sobeewan wants to kill anybody, and
>follows similar concepts to what Hitler studied.
Hey, I don't think I follow the same concepts that Hitler did, in fact, I
don't think I follow the same concepts as anyone really, since no one is
me. But, your comparison is incorrect all the same. I would only kill if
I have to. But, to me, Hitler's method was that of insecurity and
paranoia, and although he seems to have been very good at what he did, he
was nonetheless doomed to fail because of this paranoia and insecurity.
I, on the other hand, am not paranoid nor insecure with my position in
society, and therefore have no need to destroy the things around me that
make me feel insecure. I merely wish to change them, if I might be so
bold, and lucky. There's your difference.
>I always thought (bear with me I'm not a chemistry major) that reactions,
>and discharges and so-forth always wanted to move to the lowest
>common-denominator (ie. O2 and H2 ignited form H2O, a much more stable
>compound). To me, that seems like order from chaos.
It is, in a specific perspective. You have to understand that when
combining, most elements lose energy. Where does that energy go? That
energy is expelled in the form of heat. It is this heat that goes out and
add excess evergy to other compounds, causing the individual elements in
that compound to accelerate and resonate faster and faster until they
break apart. The chaos is in the random nature of the break-up, the order
is in the formation of something else. Hence, energy was conserved.
Stuart
JadePalm
EVERYONE, COME ON!!!!!!!!! THIS IS A FRIEKING POINTLESS ARGUMENT!!!!! DO
THE WORLD A FAVOR AND LET THIS STUPID THREAD ""DIE""!!!!!!!
JadePalm
>
>> In defense of Christianity, I hardly think it was the Christians
>>who designated the pentagram as "evil". In fact, I would dare say that
>>most of them (us) don't think of the symbol, in and of itself, as
>>"evil".
EEEXXXXCCCUUUUSSSEEE MMEEE????????
did I read that right???????? Christians (NOT ME!!) believe the
Pentagram is a Devil Worshipping Symbol, when, IN FACT!! it is a
Pagan/Wiccan symbol, having 5 points, meaning Earth, Fire, Water, Air, &
Spirit... it is nothing more than a religious symbol of worship, and IT IS
NOT evil!!!!
Chris Ferguson
JadePalm wrote:
>
> EVERYONE, COME ON!!!!!!!!! THIS IS A FRIEKING POINTLESS ARGUMENT!!!!! DO
> THE WORLD A FAVOR AND LET THIS STUPID THREAD ""DIE""!!!!!!!
> Jade...@AOL.COM Lover of RUSH and Good Music
Why? This is intellectual thought at its best. Threads are good - we
learn.
By the way, Christians DO find the pentagram not of their liking - wicca
are not viewed by Christians as part of the faith we believe in, thus we
do not follow it. The same goes for seances, transcendental meditation,
horoscopes, studies of mythical astrology, witchcraft, and therealikes.
funkster
Scott Peters
In article <4suh0g$e...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, huskr...@aol.com says...
>
>According to the "biography", the red star from 2112 has something to do
>with representing the "masses" and has some sort of governmental tie to
>it. There is absolutely nothing satanic about it, people who believe all
>the rumors obviously don't get the whole picture, and probably aren't fans
>of the band anyway. The symbol became Rush's logo for so many years
>because it to them represented their struggle against the "masses", i.e.
>the mainstream rock industry and the media and radio, etc.. The naked man
>inside the star represents them and the star represents the evil
>federatrion they were up against - according to Hugh Syme, the guy who
>designed the logo.
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>-------------------------------------------------------
>Matt Rose
>Huskr...@aol.com
>"I don't know where you magic pixies came from, but I like your pixie
>drink"
>
>
>
Also in many pagan religions the symbol is of protection, not evil...
Sobeewan
Man, I love being called a "pagan".
Stuart C.
JadePalm
Man, I love being called a "pagan".
Stuart C.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Unless your being serious, DON'T KNOCK PAGANISM. I am pagan, and I'll
defend until I begin my next life...
**************************************************************************
Jade...@AOL.COM Lover of RUSH and Good Music
Sobeewan
No knocking, my friend, just emphatic acceptance. I, too, am a very pagan
individual. I meant it in an acknowledging and "proud to be" sense.
Stuart C.
"Books for all the world are always foul-smelling books: the smell of
small people clings to them. Where the people eat and drink, even where
they venerate, it usually stinks. One should not go to church if one
wants to breathe 'pure' air."---
Nietzsche--Beyond Good
and Evil
Hector
Sobeewan wrote:
>
> "Books for all the world are always foul-smelling books: the smell of
> small people clings to them. Where the people eat and drink, even where
> they venerate, it usually stinks. One should not go to church if one
> wants to breathe 'pure' air."---
> Nietzsche--Beyond Good
> and Evil
--------------------------------
"God is dead" - Nietzsche (1886)
"Nietzsche is dead" - God (1900)
Sobeewan
Hector <cha...@tempestsoft.com> wrote:
>Sobeewan wrote:
>>
Nietzsche's alive and well my friend, you just have to know where to look.
Look around you, God has been dead for a long time. It's only when
people attempt to grasp at something in order to keep their little lives
simple that they struggle to keep God alive in the face of technology
(which makes us more like God everyday), the natural sciences, and sheer
common sense. But, a belief in God does serve a purpose, it keeps the
herd from stampeding.
Stuart C.
It doesn't matter if you flame me, because I'm drinking new Nestea Cool.
Scott Peters
Actucally the symbol on the 2112 cover isn't a pentagram, the lines don't
connect, it is just a star in a circle. :)
Scott
In article <4tlfa8$6...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, sobe...@aol.comy says...
Edward V Balyka
In <4tpdpr$o...@lassen.cnw.com> ta...@baker.cnw.com (Scott Peters)
writes:
>Actucally the symbol on the 2112 cover isn't a pentagram, the lines
>don't connect, it is just a star in a circle. :)
>
>Scott
>
>
beating the sh*t out of me.
-:"Beam me up -- they're not hiring here either."
Sobeewan
ta...@baker.cnw.com (Scott Peters) wrote:
>To: Sobeewan
>
>Actucally the symbol on the 2112 cover isn't a pentagram, the lines don't
>connect, it is just a star in a circle. :)
>
>Scott
Actually Scott, and anyone else who wishes to debate this issue,
grammatically, pentagram is the correct definition of it--using the
combining form of the word pent, which is penta, meaning five, and the
combining form of the word gram, which is still gram, meaning something
written or drawn. So, by literal definition, it is still a pentagram
since it is something drawn and has five points, or sides. By today's
wonderful society though, only the stars with the lines on it are called
pentagrams because then it's easy for Christians to label something they
fear, namely, their true inner natures.
Thank you for your supports. (I just had a foundation repaired)
Stuart C.
Zo
>Actucally the symbol on the 2112 cover isn't a pentagram, the lines don't
>connect, it is just a star in a circle. :)
Exactly! But for some reason people want to beleive RUSH is into the Devil.
I remember all the backwords message crap and the alleged meaning of R.U.S.H.
Ruled
Under
Satanic
Hence
Get a life everyone.......................
JadePalm
Exactly! But for some reason people want to beleive RUSH is into the
Devil.
I remember all the backwords message crap and the alleged meaning of
R.U.S.H.
Ruled
Under
Satanic
Hence
Get a life everyone.......................
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>....
of course what I heard about that was
R.ulers
U.nder
S.atans
H.and
or
R.ock
U.nder
S.atans
H.ouse
someone really needs to get a life.....
- Jade
Scott Peters
If you look a little more closly at the 2112 cover you will notice that the red
symbol is not a pentagram, which is a symbol of protection, and is but a star
with a circle around it. From my understanding a pentagram has all of the
"stars" lines connected through the middle.
Just think about it. :)
Scott
Tim the Enchanter
Let's not go here again. Whoa, I just inadvertantly worked a Rush title
into a sentence, cool.
Dan
Lover of Kate and Music