ouch... (billboard review of "lost boys calling")
David Gilmour
the song's crap.
each small candle is a great song, but this one sucks!
"the ubiquitous mr. lovegrove" wrote:
> (the following is copied from the october 23, 1999 issue of billboard
> magazine)
>
> ROGER WATERS Lost Boys Calling (5.19)
>
> PRODUCER: Roger Waters
> WRITERS: Roger Waters, Ennio Morricone
> PUBLISHER: not listed
> Sony Classical 5792 (CD promo)
>
> With lyrics and vocals by erstwhile Pink Floyd leader Roger Waters,
> "Lost Boys Calling" is the single from the soundtrack to the upcoming
> film 'The Legend Of 1900.' Ennio Morricone penned the score, motifs
> from which form basis for the relatively melodious music to "Lost Boys
> Calling," while Eddie Van Halen provides alternately squalling and
> soaring guitar solos for the song. So a lot of name talent is on tap
> here, but to no avail -- only those drawn to the most mawkish fare
> will pick up on "Lost Boys Calling." Waters' words and performance are
> sickeningly sentimental, and Van Halen's solos are utterly rote. Truth
> be told, the whole thing is a musical disaster. The CD promo features
> a snippet from Morricone's score, which doesn't sound like any great
> shakes itself. Let's hope the film -- a seagoing fable directed by
> Oscar winner Guiseppe Tornatore and starring Tim Roth -- is better.
>
> ash`
>
> he'eth who'eth walketh beneatheth the roweth
>
> there is a sound on the other side of this wall a bird is singing on the other side of this glass
Diane Hall
> oh, yeah, right. lost boys calling is mawkish, yet each small candle is
> supposed to be the picture of understatement?
Each Small Candle's lyrics shot my optimism about Roger's new album to
hell. I wasn't knocked out by LBC's words, but ESC induced bad
recollections of The Cranberries' third album.
> the question is at what point his over-the-hill-rock-star bad taste turns
> terminal.
Well, let's see what other new material he comes up with. Even ATD had
its cringe-worthy moments.
Diane
send email to cymb...@hotmail.com
DCMIX
>its cringe-worthy moments.
How and where? This album is as good as if not better than the old floyd stuff
with roger IMO. Nothing cringe worthy that i could see....
Keith Levenberg
: How and where? This album is as good as if not better than the old floyd stuff
: with roger IMO. Nothing cringe worthy that i could see....
Well, the insipid and immature politics were pretty cringeworthy....
Diane Hall
> >Even ATD had
> >its cringe-worthy moments.
>
> How and where? This album is as good as if not better than the old floyd stuff
> with roger IMO. Nothing cringe worthy that i could see....
I personally found a few lines in "Watching TV" and "Too Much Rope" to be
crude and unnecessary. "Watching TV" is a track I generally skip when
listening to the album.
Shawn Leventhal
and Too much rope is awesome...I love when he sings..."tears burn my eyes"
in his high voice....I must admit the line "you don't have to be a jew"
sounds a bit harsh, but I don't think he means it that way...at least in an
offensive way....
The Doctor
<klev...@emerald.tufts.edu> wrote:
> Pierce Inverarity <clea...@w.a.s.t.e.com> wrote:
>
> : Watching TV is a critique of the way victims are portrayed on TV. They
>didn't
> need to hear about her boobs to get that message from the song. Hence the
> cringe.
Does it not in a way make it more human then?
It's just a word really, 'breasts'. It's not even a very nasty word at
that. No nastier than 'fuck' used in other songs.
If it offends you perhaps it is more of a personal hang up you have.
To me it all points to Rogers 60's type of angst and outlook on the
world in general. Roger says here is a gorgeous girl, from a normal
family, with a lot going for her, then she is dead.
And since it is the only song I know of dealing with the Tiannemen
Square massacre, it makes it all the better.
--
Posted via Talkway - http://www.talkway.com
Exchange ideas on practically anything (tm).
Keith Levenberg
: I personally found a few lines in "Watching TV" and "Too Much Rope" to be
: crude and unnecessary. "Watching TV" is a track I generally skip when
: listening to the album.
I like the song, even think many of the words on it are some of the best
on the album. But I did /not/ need to know that she had perfect breasts.
Keith Levenberg
: in his high voice....I must admit the line "you don't have to be a jew"
: sounds a bit harsh, but I don't think he means it that way...at least in an
: offensive way....
That line I don't find offensive, although definitely unnecessary, and
quite a bit quizzical. The one line I /do/ find offensive is: "The Germans
killed the Jews / and the Jews killed the Arabs / and the Arabs killed the
hostages." Talk about moral equivalence. Maybe the man should have paid
more attention in history class. There is no comparison here. There's not
even a beginning of a comparison.
Carl Funk
But you left off the next line, that makes it so much more powerful:
And the Germans killed Jews
and the Jews killed the Arabs
and the Arabs killed the hostages
and that is the news.
Roger is saying that our entertainment driven culture is distorting
our view of history. Newscasts are mere soundbites, the vast
majority of the population never bothers to learn more about what
is *really* going on in the world. Look at the next line:
And is it any wonder
that the monkey's confused.
And *why* is the monkey confused? From an earlier part of the song:
The monkey looked up at the stars
And he thought to himself
Memory is a stranger
History is for fools
Maybe I'm going out on a limb here, but I think Roger is saying the
monkey is looking forward to the future, not learning about the
past. That generally means you're doomed to repeat the mistakes of
the past. What mistakes does Roger focus on?
"The Germans killed Jews" because of anti-semitic teachings of
religious leaders (Martin Luther, several popes.)
"Jews killed the Arabs" because both groups wanted the same land,
land which was valuable almost solely because of its religious
significance.
"Arabs killed the hostages" as ordered to by Islamic leaders, who
didn't want their culture to be influenced too much by Christian
cultures.
Do you see a trend here? What happens to the monkey who is told about
events, but told not to worry about what might've caused those events?
He's told, "History's for fools, man is a tool in the hands of the
great God Almighty." He's given a nuclear submarine and sent to
search for the Garden of Eden.
--
Carl Funk "nil illegitimi carborundum" ICQ#16282427
a.a atheist #1229 member, EAC Decryption Squad
to bypass my SPAM-deflector, it helps if you realize I am
asthmatic. i.e. no SMOKING please!
sta...@xmission.xmission.com
babylon
Keith Levenberg
: But you left off the next line, that makes it so much more powerful:
: And the Germans killed Jews
: and the Jews killed the Arabs
: and the Arabs killed the hostages
: and that is the news.
That doesn't make it more powerful, that just adds to the idiocy. That is
NOT the news. What historical events is he talking about? It's a
simplistic and factually distorted view of history.
: Roger is saying that our entertainment driven culture is distorting
: our view of history. Newscasts are mere soundbites, the vast
: majority of the population never bothers to learn more about what
: is *really* going on in the world. Look at the next line:
: And is it any wonder
: that the monkey's confused.
: And *why* is the monkey confused? From an earlier part of the song:
: The monkey looked up at the stars
: And he thought to himself
: Memory is a stranger
: History is for fools
You don't have to quote the song, fella... I'm talking about the
(disgraceful) political opinions expressed in the song, I'm not trying to
deconstruct the thing to find deep metaphysical significance.
: Maybe I'm going out on a limb here, but I think Roger is saying the
: monkey is looking forward to the future, not learning about the
: past. That generally means you're doomed to repeat the mistakes of
: the past. What mistakes does Roger focus on?
: "The Germans killed Jews" because of anti-semitic teachings of
: religious leaders (Martin Luther, several popes.)
I should hope that when people think of Germans killing Jews they have
more recent villains to speak of...
: "Jews killed the Arabs" because both groups wanted the same land,
: land which was valuable almost solely because of its religious
: significance.
I'm sorry, but there is /no comparison/ between defending yourself from a
hostile invasion and a Holocaust that left 10 million people
systematically tortured for a period of 12 years.
: "Arabs killed the hostages" as ordered to by Islamic leaders, who
: didn't want their culture to be influenced too much by Christian
: cultures.
There isn't even a comparison here. How many hostages were killed? A
handful. By putting the lines against each other Waters is implying that
the three "guilty" parties are equally culpable for moral wrongs of a
similar nature. But this is lunacy.
: Do you see a trend here? What happens to the monkey who is told about
: events, but told not to worry about what might've caused those events?
: He's told, "History's for fools, man is a tool in the hands of the
: great God Almighty." He's given a nuclear submarine and sent to
: search for the Garden of Eden.
I'm not sure you and I are on the same plane.
The Doctor
<klev...@emerald.tufts.edu> wrote:
> Carl Funk <cf...@smokingameritech.net> wrote:
> : But you left off the next line, that makes it so much more powerful:
> : And the Germans killed Jews
> : and the Jews killed the Arabs
> : and the Arabs killed the hostages
> : and that is the news.
>
> That doesn't make it more powerful, that just adds to the idiocy. That is
> NOT the news. What historical events is he talking about? It's a
> simplistic and factually distorted view of history.
So Roger should have said 'and the Jews killed the Palestinians'?
I don't think many of us take our history lessons from Roger, though it
does help. Does Roger really believe golf courses are built for the
Japs only? So that is idiotic too right?
Just what are you trying to say?
David Gilmour
late home tonight
simply CRAP !
the rest of the album is
AMAZING
Shawn Leventhal wrote:
> I think Watching TV is one of the best songs on there.....
> and Too much rope is awesome...I love when he sings..."tears burn my eyes"
> in his high voice....I must admit the line "you don't have to be a jew"
> sounds a bit harsh, but I don't think he means it that way...at least in an
> offensive way....
>
> > I personally found a few lines in "Watching TV" and "Too Much Rope" to be
> > crude and unnecessary. "Watching TV" is a track I generally skip when
> > listening to the album.
Marc A. Leckstein
<klev...@emerald.tufts.edu> wrote:
>Carl Funk <cf...@smokingameritech.net> wrote:
>: But you left off the next line, that makes it so much more powerful:
>: And the Germans killed Jews
>: and the Jews killed the Arabs
>: and the Arabs killed the hostages
>: and that is the news.
>
>That doesn't make it more powerful, that just adds to the idiocy. That is
>NOT the news. What historical events is he talking about? It's a
>simplistic and factually distorted view of history.
>
Keith - I think thats the point Roger is trying to make ... that we
are so "Amused To Death" by television that something such as the
above becomes "simplistic and factually distorted" in our minds.
In today's society, at least in Roger's mind, and I think he has
point, society is so "Amused To Death" that something like the
Holocaust and something such as hostage taking all becomes just
another story on the news. It doesn't have any impact on the tv
viewer's life. He can just sit back and relax in his easy chair while
watching stories of people being murdered. It doesn't affect him one
iota ... its just entertainment. And when he gets bored of hearing
about the Holocaust or hostage taking, he can just use the remote
control and flip over to the home shopping network.
Roger isn't advocating the "simplistic and factually distorted view of
history" --- he's protesting against it --- he's simply stating his
fears that such an understanding of history is where society is
headed.
-=Marc=-
Shawn Leventhal
>
> But you left off the next line, that makes it so much more powerful:
> And the Germans killed Jews
> and the Jews killed the Arabs
> and the Arabs killed the hostages
> and that is the news.
>
> our view of history. Newscasts are mere soundbites, the vast
> majority of the population never bothers to learn more about what
> is *really* going on in the world. Look at the next line:
> And is it any wonder
> that the monkey's confused.
>
> And *why* is the monkey confused? From an earlier part of the song:
> The monkey looked up at the stars
> And he thought to himself
> Memory is a stranger
> History is for fools
>
> monkey is looking forward to the future, not learning about the
> past. That generally means you're doomed to repeat the mistakes of
> the past. What mistakes does Roger focus on?
>
> "The Germans killed Jews" because of anti-semitic teachings of
> religious leaders (Martin Luther, several popes.)
> land which was valuable almost solely because of its religious
> significance.
> didn't want their culture to be influenced too much by Christian
> cultures.
>
> events, but told not to worry about what might've caused those events?
> He's told, "History's for fools, man is a tool in the hands of the
> great God Almighty." He's given a nuclear submarine and sent to
> search for the Garden of Eden.
>
The Doctor
<dh...@leland.Stanford.EDU> wrote:
> On Thu, 21 Oct 1999, The Doctor wrote:
> > To me it all points to Rogers 60's type of angst and outlook on the
> > world in general. Roger says here is a gorgeous girl, from a normal
> > family, with a lot going for her, then she is dead.
>
> Whoa. Dangerous line of thinking here. You could extend that line of
> reasoning to say that if she wasn't gorgeous, her death wouldn't have
> mattered so much. It certainly mattered to the TV audience that she was
> attractive, but as far as the actual value of her life goes, it shouldn't
> matter how she looked.
I think it is all meant to be dangerous. It is how we are practically
forced to perceive the world around us on TV and Movies and Beauty
Pageants. Rogers words are a strong reflection on where we place
things in life. IT's the way the media treat their viewers.
Everything no matter how dark at times will be presented with a glossy
shine. Why are breast implants done on such a frequent basis? Why are
looks so important? They are not, I think that's the sarcasm of the
song. She is perfect, even with blood all over her there is a beauty
that must be shown to attract the viewer and make us feel more for the
dead girl. Else why would we care for her after they go to commercial
for Gap Khakis?
So while it is proper not to allow looks to get in the way they always
do no matter what. It can't be helped and it gets worse all the time.
Another example is the Jon Bennet girl who was killed. We see her all
made up on tv, when we all know she is a rotting corpse and was found
dead in her home strangled and abused. It's extreme but look at how
she is protrayed in the media. We are being forced to care for her
cause she was 'so cute'. When in reality plenty of children die
everyday yet we don't hear about it. Ok I'm rambling but I hope I made
some sense with this.
Pierce Inverarity
<klev...@emerald.tufts.edu> wrote:
>That doesn't make it more powerful, that just adds to the idiocy. That is
>NOT the news. What historical events is he talking about? It's a
>simplistic and factually distorted view of history.
Dear sir, you are an utter IDIOT, and I would flame you if I did not
have an horrible headache. Go listen to Jewel. She'll make you feel
all warm and fuzzy inside.
>I'm not sure you and I are on the same plane.
You're not. He actually understand the song, you do not.
Have a nice day.
--
Pierce Inverarity
clea...@nonespecified.cjb.net
v1.2a s+r>d TW 1/0/r tinG 2? 0 WYWH/Meddle 12 39 6.4% <20oct99>
The results of this intrusion into your life will be used 'responsibly'
in ways you cannot even begin to imagine. Of course, the innocent have
nothing to fear from the rapidly expanding data industry.
Thank you. Have a safe day.
Pierce Inverarity
<klev...@emerald.tufts.edu> wrote:
>Diane Hall <dh...@leland.stanford.edu> wrote:
>: I personally found a few lines in "Watching TV" and "Too Much Rope" to be
>: crude and unnecessary. "Watching TV" is a track I generally skip when
>: listening to the album.
>
>I like the song, even think many of the words on it are some of the best
>on the album. But I did /not/ need to know that she had perfect breasts.
You missed the point. HTH.
Some people have been presented with an explanation of the point that
they have ignored. Their loss.
Keith Levenberg
:>That doesn't make it more powerful, that just adds to the idiocy. That is
:>NOT the news. What historical events is he talking about? It's a
:>simplistic and factually distorted view of history.
: Keith - I think thats the point Roger is trying to make ... that we
: are so "Amused To Death" by television that something such as the
: above becomes "simplistic and factually distorted" in our minds.
I don't think so. I think he's trying to say "Look at these horrible
things that happened, and that's what we choose to watch on the news." If
your interpretation is correct, the lines are less offensive, but the
words are poorly chosen. They're not quite clear and there are better ways
to say it.
: In today's society, at least in Roger's mind, and I think he has
: point, society is so "Amused To Death" that something like the
: Holocaust and something such as hostage taking all becomes just
: another story on the news. It doesn't have any impact on the tv
Yes, this is true, but my objection was that he was trying to equate other
things to the Holocaust that are not by any stretch of the imagination
equatable.
Keith Levenberg
:>I like the song, even think many of the words on it are some of the best
:>on the album. But I did /not/ need to know that she had perfect breasts.
: You missed the point. HTH.
: Some people have been presented with an explanation of the point that
: they have ignored. Their loss.
But not by you. So why don't you enlighten us with your treatise, O Bwana
of Usenet?
Keith Levenberg
: Dear sir, you are an utter IDIOT, and I would flame you if I did not
: have an horrible headache. Go listen to Jewel. She'll make you feel
: all warm and fuzzy inside.
Do your worst, dicky.
Keith Levenberg
: Dear sir, you are an utter IDIOT, and I would flame you if I did not
: have an horrible headache.
Do your worst, dicky.
Pierce Inverarity
<klev...@emerald.tufts.edu> wrote:
>But not by you. So why don't you enlighten us with your treatise, O Bwana
>of Usenet?
Watching TV is a critique of the way victims are portrayed on TV. They
choose a particular person because they are pretty or heart-warming
(see that Cassie in Littleton) and ignore the rest of the people. He's
also satirizing the idea that TV representations of violence will make
people stop being violent - "She's the one in 50 million who can help
us to be free because she died on TV." What was the watcher's reaction
to the first part of the song? "Get out your pistols . . . they are
irrelevant to me, and I grieve for my sister." Then: "Did we do
anything after this? I've a feeling we did." In other words, yeah, the
TV footage made us grieve for them, but did it make us attempt to
change anything about the world? For the most part, no.
HTH.
--
Pierce Inverarity
clea...@nonespecified.cjb.net
v1.2a s+r>d TW 1/0/r tinG 2? 0 WYWH/Meddle 12 39 6.4% <20oct99>
a boundary you can never cross.
landmines and electric fence.
so many lies it strangles him like rope.
such a w.a.s.t.e
Michael Jones
wrote:
>
>I don't think so. I think he's trying to say "Look at these horrible
>things that happened, and that's what we choose to watch on the news." If
>your interpretation is correct, the lines are less offensive, but the
>words are poorly chosen. They're not quite clear and there are better ways
>to say it.
That's one of my favorite verses on the album. I like the meaning, but I
also like the flow.
>Yes, this is true, but my objection was that he was trying to equate other
>things to the Holocaust that are not by any stretch of the imagination
>equatable.
Maybe Roger thinks differently? Maybe he thinks that any violence is only
superficially distinct from all other violence? Maybe he thinks that all
violence in the world contributes to our confusion, especially when our
primary means of ascertaining meaning is to look at what others in our
society are doing?
--
Michael Jones
e-mail: z...@iglou.comPOST.IT
AIM: Zvpunry
ICQ: 34802589
Keith Levenberg
:>Yes, this is true, but my objection was that he was trying to equate other
:>things to the Holocaust that are not by any stretch of the imagination
:>equatable.
: Maybe Roger thinks differently? Maybe he thinks that any violence is only
: superficially distinct from all other violence? Maybe he thinks that all
: violence in the world contributes to our confusion, especially when our
: primary means of ascertaining meaning is to look at what others in our
: society are doing?
Maybe he does, and I think you may be right here, which is exactly the
sort of problem I have with his politics vis a vis war. All violence is
NOT equatable, all wars are not equally terrible, and sometimes it is
morally just to take up arms to defend against a calamity far worse than
war.
Keith Levenberg
: Watching TV is a critique of the way victims are portrayed on TV. They
: choose a particular person because they are pretty or heart-warming
: (see that Cassie in Littleton) and ignore the rest of the people. He's
: also satirizing the idea that TV representations of violence will make
: people stop being violent - "She's the one in 50 million who can help
: us to be free because she died on TV." What was the watcher's reaction
: to the first part of the song? "Get out your pistols . . . they are
: irrelevant to me, and I grieve for my sister." Then: "Did we do
: anything after this? I've a feeling we did." In other words, yeah, the
: TV footage made us grieve for them, but did it make us attempt to
: change anything about the world? For the most part, no.
That's all well and good, but the original critique was that we didn't
Shawn Leventhal
musically, and it has a great message. It's one of the better songs on the
album, and one of the more clear songs, interms of how literal the message
is....sometimes it's nice to not be so abstract.
The Doctor <jde...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:2XLP3.17608$%62.2...@c01read02-admin.service.talkway.com...
> On 25 Oct 1999 21:40:03 GMT Keith Levenberg
> <klev...@emerald.tufts.edu> wrote:
>
> > Pierce Inverarity <clea...@w.a.s.t.e.com> wrote:
> >
> > : Watching TV is a critique of the way victims are portrayed on TV. They
>
> >didn't
> > need to hear about her boobs to get that message from the song. Hence
the
> > cringe.
>
> Does it not in a way make it more human then?
> It's just a word really, 'breasts'. It's not even a very nasty word at
> that. No nastier than 'fuck' used in other songs.
> If it offends you perhaps it is more of a personal hang up you have.
>
> To me it all points to Rogers 60's type of angst and outlook on the
> world in general. Roger says here is a gorgeous girl, from a normal
> family, with a lot going for her, then she is dead.
>
> And since it is the only song I know of dealing with the Tiannemen
> Square massacre, it makes it all the better.
Diane Hall
> On 25 Oct 1999 21:40:03 GMT Keith Levenberg
> <klev...@emerald.tufts.edu> wrote:
>
> > We didn't need to hear about her boobs to get that message from the
> > song. Hence the cringe.
>
> Does it not in a way make it more human then?
> It's just a word really, 'breasts'. It's not even a very nasty word at
> that. No nastier than 'fuck' used in other songs.
> If it offends you perhaps it is more of a personal hang up you have.
It's not so much the 'perfect breasts' as the 'yellow thighs' that really
annoy me. He could have gotten his point across without a phrase like
that. He could have made her human without turning her into a sexual
cliche. And yes, you could call it a personal hang-up that I don't like
those lines, but whether lyrics are 'good' or 'bad' is going to be
subjective and influenced by personal hang-ups. I think that Roger's word
choice in 'Watching Tv' (and 'Too Much Rope') ends up detracting from
rather than emphasizing what he's trying to get across.
> To me it all points to Rogers 60's type of angst and outlook on the
> world in general. Roger says here is a gorgeous girl, from a normal
> family, with a lot going for her, then she is dead.
Whoa. Dangerous line of thinking here. You could extend that line of
reasoning to say that if she wasn't gorgeous, her death wouldn't have
mattered so much. It certainly mattered to the TV audience that she was
attractive, but as far as the actual value of her life goes, it shouldn't
matter how she looked.
Csquare4
>And since it is the only song I know of dealing with the Tiannemen
>Square massacre, it makes it all the better.
Ought to check out the song "Our Oyster" by Peter Hammill on the classic
"Out of Water". This is a haunting commentary on much the same things as
Rog comes up with in AtD, with emphasis on Tiennamen Square. This from the
"other" great rock lyricist...talk about a mental picture through lyrics,
this one gives me chills everytime I hear it (which I think I will listen to
now).
As for the "she had perfect breasts" bit, well, yeah, I can visualize them
also...in fact,...no, nevermind.
Sorry :-)
Diane Hall
> On Mon, 25 Oct 1999 17:47:03 -0700, Diane Hall
> <dh...@leland.Stanford.EDU> wrote:
>
> >Whoa. Dangerous line of thinking here. You could extend that line of
> >reasoning to say that if she wasn't gorgeous, her death wouldn't have
> >mattered so much. It certainly mattered to the TV audience that she was
> >attractive, but as far as the actual value of her life goes, it shouldn't
> >matter how she looked.
>That's the point of the song
I haven't read that many ATD-era interviews, so I'd like to know: is your
interpretation the actual one Roger had in mind when writing it? I've
turned up no less than six interpretations of Watching TV by other parties
tonight, most of them close to The Doctor's. Mind, I still think it's a
poor song (Don Henley has good intentions, but I can't stand the man's
voice).
Pierce Inverarity
<klev...@emerald.tufts.edu> wrote:
>That's all well and good, but the original critique was that we didn't
>need to hear about her boobs to get that message from the song. Hence the
>cringe.
YES, we did need it, because THAT is precisely the kind of the thing
the media focus on! They're not going to choose a victim to highlight
who has a less than perfect figure and wants to become a librarian!
That is the point! Gah!
--
Pierce Inverarity
clea...@nonespecified.cjb.net
v1.2a s+r>d TW 1/0/r tinG 2? 0 WYWH/Meddle 12 39 6.4% <20oct99>
malamikigo
Pierce Inverarity
<klev...@emerald.tufts.edu> wrote:
>Maybe he does, and I think you may be right here, which is exactly the
>sort of problem I have with his politics vis a vis war. All violence is
>NOT equatable, all wars are not equally terrible, and sometimes it is
>morally just to take up arms to defend against a calamity far worse than
>war.
You ignored Carl Funk's response, which I think is what Waters
intended. It is reposted below.
>Roger is saying that our entertainment driven culture is distorting
>our view of history. Newscasts are mere soundbites, the vast
>majority of the population never bothers to learn more about what
>is *really* going on in the world. Look at the next line:
> And is it any wonder
> that the monkey's confused.
Pierce Inverarity
<sml...@stern.nyu.edu> wrote:
>I have to agree with the Doc on this one....Watching TV is a great song
>musically, and it has a great message. It's one of the better songs on the
>album, and one of the more clear songs, interms of how literal the message
>is....sometimes it's nice to not be so abstract.
Actually, I think that The Doctor's interpreation is what Waters is
seeking to parodize. The "Well, she was pretty, and she had easily
understandable goals in life, so let's focus on her" outlook of the
media.
>> To me it all points to Rogers 60's type of angst and outlook on the
>> world in general. Roger says here is a gorgeous girl, from a normal
>> family, with a lot going for her, then she is dead.
Pierce Inverarity
<dh...@leland.Stanford.EDU> wrote:
>> To me it all points to Rogers 60's type of angst and outlook on the
>> world in general. Roger says here is a gorgeous girl, from a normal
>> family, with a lot going for her, then she is dead.
>
>Whoa. Dangerous line of thinking here. You could extend that line of
>reasoning to say that if she wasn't gorgeous, her death wouldn't have
>mattered so much. It certainly mattered to the TV audience that she was
>attractive, but as far as the actual value of her life goes, it shouldn't
>matter how she looked.
That's the point of the song.
Jon Nelson
> <klev...@emerald.tufts.edu> wrote:
>
> >Carl Funk <cf...@smokingameritech.net> wrote:
> >: But you left off the next line, that makes it so much more
powerful:
> >: And the Germans killed Jews
> >: and the Jews killed the Arabs
> >: and the Arabs killed the hostages
> >: and that is the news.
> >
That is
> >NOT the news. What historical events is he talking about? It's a
> >simplistic and factually distorted view of history.
> >
>
> Keith - I think thats the point Roger is trying to make ... that we
> are so "Amused To Death" by television that something such as the
> above becomes "simplistic and factually distorted" in our minds.
> Roger isn't advocating the "simplistic and factually distorted view of
> history" --- he's protesting against it --- he's simply stating his
> fears that such an understanding of history is where society is
> headed.
I agree completely. I think Roger employs a type of debating strategy
that I find quite effective. We are seeing its effects right here and
now in this thread. What better way to demonstrate the idiocy and
lunacy of a distorted, inaccurate, fast-food-for-the-brain, amused to
death culture that seems to be the norm for the news than to simply
state it how it is instead of criticizing directly? What I mean is,
Roger knows that writing a song that actually says, "the modern news and
media distort the truth and breed cultural and historical ignorance"
probably won't be very well-received. Why? Without writing a lenghty
discussion to defend your opinion, what's the point of stating it?
UNLESS you can present the OPPOSITE viewpoint as you see it, leaving the
reader/listener to draw the same conclusions YOU have done already. So
what Roger does is SHOW why it is he feels that the news is distorting
our view, amusing us to death - THEN we, as intelligent people, can say,
"that's not history, that's not how it really happened!" Which is, of
course, exactly what Roger wants us to realize. That the news is
TELLING us that's the way it happened, but it isn't ... I think that
Roger feels the same way Mr. Levenburg does, and has merely presented
the opposing (and, I agree, lunatic) viewpoint that the news is
presenting the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth (so to
speak).
I think this is the case throughout Roger's lyrics since he started
making social commentary about things around 1973 with DSOTM. I mean,
listen to such songs as "In The Flesh!" from The Wall and "Not Now
John" from "The Final Cut" (actually quite a lot of TFC). Of course,
there's also the infamously mis-understood "Another Brick in the Wall
p.2" as well. Was Roger saying that "coons" and "jews" should be shot?
Of course not. Is he saying kids should be ignorant? Not at all. Is
he saying that we ought to decalare war on Argentina, the Japanese, the
Swedes, etc? No. He is taking the exact opposite stance.
By showing the OPPOSITE viewpoint to his own in an unfavorable light, he
is making a very effective argument against it. Again, witness the
reactions of many people here. I feel they took up the exact position
Roger wanted them to take up, that same viewpoint he shares. Roger has,
over the years, become a wee bit more subtle in his expressions (no more
"Not Now John" or "In The Flesh!" type stuff for example). On the other
hand, the subtlety also serves to put the few less-subtle points in
glaring spotlight, making them far more noticable and perhaps more
likely to be mis-interpreted as a result.
Just my two bits.
Jon Nelson
--
You may be a leader in this rat race, but you're
still a rat.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Jon Nelson
Keith Levenberg <klev...@emerald.tufts.edu> wrote:
> Diane Hall <dh...@leland.stanford.edu> wrote:
> : I personally found a few lines in "Watching TV" and "Too Much Rope"
to be
> : crude and unnecessary. "Watching TV" is a track I generally skip
when
>
> I like the song, even think many of the words on it are some of the
best
> on the album. But I did /not/ need to know that she had perfect
breasts.
Why not?
Honestly, I am being absolutely serious. Why did you NOT need to know
she had perfect breasts? Is your point that it had nothing to do with
who she was, what she stood for?
Because if that's the case, you and Roger are in complete agreement.
Her having perfect breasts has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with who she was
or what she died for. However, it has a *significant* amount to do with
why the news media put her story on the air. THIS is Roger's point.
This is the point of "Watching TV" - the news entertains us, not informs
us.
The same thing goes for the "yellow thighs" line, which I do have a
slight problem with. While I can see Roger's point that the girl was
very beautiful and that it had nothing to do with what she stood for
(and yet was one of the main reasons the news picked her out amongst all
the other tragedies in Tiannemen Square) ... while I can see all that, I
think the line was a tad gratuitous. It wasn't very subtle at all, and
kind of stands out like a sore thumb. I think he was just trying to
find a rhyme and went with it without really trying to think of
something better to put there. It's a shame, yes, and a clumsy moment,
but I would propose that it is BECAUSE of the absolute genius and
subtlety of the rest of the song that makes this little gaff such a
glaring oversight. How many songs can you say THAT about?
Two more bits from me. :)
Jon Nelson
<Pine.GSO.3.96.991025...@elaine21.Stanford.EDU>,
> > <dh...@leland.Stanford.EDU> wrote:
> >
> > >Whoa. Dangerous line of thinking here. You could extend that line
of
> > >reasoning to say that if she wasn't gorgeous, her death wouldn't
have
> > >mattered so much. It certainly mattered to the TV audience that
she was
> > >attractive, but as far as the actual value of her life goes, it
shouldn't
> > >matter how she looked.
>
>
> I haven't read that many ATD-era interviews, so I'd like to know: is
your
> interpretation the actual one Roger had in mind when writing it? I've
> turned up no less than six interpretations of Watching TV by other
parties
> tonight, most of them close to The Doctor's.
Heh. Well, FWIW, Jon Kade and myself have pretty much the exact same
interpretation of this song. (I posted twice already in this thread
before I read it all [doh!] but we're saying the same thing or damn
close) I've often found myself at odds with how Roger's songs are
interpreted amongst various people, and frequently I've had slightly
different ones that what apparently Roger intended. Not WAY off base,
but somewhat different. So, I'm *very* curious to know what Roger would
have to say about this song ... or any/all of ATD for that matter.
Roger? You out there? :) Anyway, no one is obviously Gospel when it
comes to interpretation of Roger's songs, even Roger himself. The best
songs have different personal meanings not just for different people,
but also to the same person at different times in their life. Even the
author of the song.
Anyway, I ask that anyone wishing to refute my point (about the meaning
of some lines in "Watching TV") to please read my other two messages in
this thread where I discuss my thoughts on Roger's knack for presenting
the opposing viewpoint to his own in order for us to realize it's flaws
... just so we're all on the same page.
In The Beechwoods
Your comments regarding 'yellow thighs' really hit a chord with me. This is
the one moment when I really chringe during ATD, likewise TFC, with the
imagery Roger used about 'the nips being so good at building ships'... Fair
enough. I agree that Japan has been superlatively successful over the last
20
years in civil engineering, electronics and world trade, but the use of the
word 'nips' *offends* me. I often wondered whether Roger had a thing about
Asia and Asian economies and the line in ATD seemed to confirm it.
My girlfriend is Chinese-Asian and I love her dearly. She appreciates Roger
Waters almost as much as I do. Christ! She actually ruined my album of ATD
by playing it so many times, but this I find hard to bear.... Roger is a
great song-writer and for a multi-millionaire his lyrics are *right on*
(armchair socialist as he is). But his racial politics are right off beam.
RW rocks my world, The Final Cut is one of the finest songs ever committed
to vinyl, but I can't stand the thought that he's racist. I'm sorry, but
when it comes down to it, this is what I suspect, at least as far as
far-east Asian cultures are concerned (and this is an often forgotten
racism, as far as I'm concerned).
Don't leap blindly to Roger's defence; think about it first. Everyone has
their weaknesses, I used to be more militant than most, and I have mine; but
it strikes me that there's something here.
Comments are welcome.
---------------
Jon Nelson <mads...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:7v4um5$g5c$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
Jon Nelson
"In The Beechwoods" <inthebe...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> RW rocks my world, The Final Cut is one of the finest songs ever
committed
> to vinyl, but I can't stand the thought that he's racist. I'm sorry,
but
> when it comes down to it, this is what I suspect, at least as far as
> far-east Asian cultures are concerned (and this is an often forgotten
> racism, as far as I'm concerned).
Interesting dilemma ... you can't stand Roger for being racist, but you
suspect he is. That would bother me too. I don't think he is racist,
but perhaps a bit unsensitive about using racist terms (see below). And
perhaps you're right about Far Eastern/Asian cultures being unwittingly
targeted for an "often forgotten racism." That wasn't my point, though.
:)
> Don't leap blindly to Roger's defence; think about it first. Everyone
has
> their weaknesses, I used to be more militant than most, and I have
mine; but
> it strikes me that there's something here.
A very good point. To clarify, I was defending (in my other posts) what
I *think* are Roger's tactics for presenting his stance. It is quite
possible that I am completely wrong, and that he is a racist bigot. I
rather doubt it, though. I still maintain that Roger is not calling
Japanese "nips" out of spite, but to tweak our own derision for those
that do use such terms. I am not defending his use of the word (or any
other racial slurs for that matter) as being appropriate, just that it's
possible he meant nothing derogatory by it. It's also possible he does,
in some small way, harbor some animosity towards certain peoples,
whether he acknowledges it or even knows about it at all. Nobody really
knows but Roger. Roger, like everyone else in the world, is not
perfect.
But I wasn't trying to defend Roger's possibly intentional bigotist nor
his possibly intentional sexist words and phrases. (you probably
realize this, but I just want to be absolutely clear :) I was trying to
point out that he uses a tact or method that is easily misunderstood, or
misconstrued, or otherwise interpreted as being his own viewpoint when
in fact he is usually trying to take the other stance. So, given his
historical precedence for this behavior (as evidenced by material from
DSOTM, Animals, The Wall, Pros and Cons of Hitchhiking, The Final Cut,
and Amused to Death), it is my opinion that Roger is not using the terms
"nips," "yellow thighs," "coons," etc. in order to express any bigotry
of his own, but to express his derision (and, more importantly, to get
US to express OURS) for those that do. It seems to me an excellent way
to point out the worst habits of bigots and sexists to your audience
would be to imitate them. An excellent way, but also a dangerous way,
and quite possibly a very offensive way for obvious reasons.
Of course, all of this is just what *I* think. I don't know if Roger is
completely sexist and racist, or if he's actually that much of a genius
albeit a sometimes insensitive one. I like to think the latter, but
everyone needs to make up their own opinion about it. :)
Jon Nelson
KJD
argue it, none of the recent conflictsa would count. The Falklands and Gulf
War for example (two of Rogers subjects). The west rarely fights war for
just reasons more ussually it is to keep the Wests' views and dominance
prevalent or for maintaining our wealth.
Keith Levenberg <klev...@emerald.tufts.edu> wrote in message
news:7v0ksr$efb$2...@news3.tufts.edu...
> Michael Jones <z...@iglou.compost.it> wrote:
> :>Yes, this is true, but my objection was that he was trying to equate
other
> :>things to the Holocaust that are not by any stretch of the imagination
> :>equatable.
>
> : Maybe Roger thinks differently? Maybe he thinks that any violence is
only
> : superficially distinct from all other violence? Maybe he thinks that
all
> : violence in the world contributes to our confusion, especially when our
> : primary means of ascertaining meaning is to look at what others in our
> : society are doing?
>
Marc A. Leckstein
wrote:
-majority of post snipped-
>By showing the OPPOSITE viewpoint to his own in an unfavorable light, he
>is making a very effective argument against it. Again, witness the
>reactions of many people here. I feel they took up the exact position
>Roger wanted them to take up, that same viewpoint he shares. Roger has,
>over the years, become a wee bit more subtle in his expressions (no more
>"Not Now John" or "In The Flesh!" type stuff for example). On the other
>hand, the subtlety also serves to put the few less-subtle points in
>glaring spotlight, making them far more noticable and perhaps more
>likely to be mis-interpreted as a result.
>
>Just my two bits.
>
>Jon Nelson
Jon - That was a great post and I agree 100% with everything you
wrote. I don't understand why many of the people on here are taking
Roger litterally instead of attempting to read between the lines.
You also give a great example of where Roger has done the same type of
thing in the past. I don't think that anyone here who actually
believes Roger is equating the Holocaust with Hostage taking would
state that they also feel Roger was advocating the shooting of Jews
and "coons" during The Wall..
If they can read through the lines there, why can't they do the same
with Amused To Death?
Thanks for attempting to make all of this as clear as it could
possibly get. If they don't understand now, I doubt that they ever
will.
-=Marc=-
Michael Jones
>
>>And since it is the only song I know of dealing with the Tiannemen
>>Square massacre, it makes it all the better.
>
>
>Ought to check out the song "Our Oyster" by Peter Hammill on the classic
>"Out of Water". This is a haunting commentary on much the same things as
>Rog comes up with in AtD, with emphasis on Tiennamen Square. This from the
>"other" great rock lyricist...talk about a mental picture through lyrics,
>this one gives me chills everytime I hear it (which I think I will listen to
>now).
Wow, another Hammill fan!
I don't see his name come up often... didn't expect to see him mentioned
on a Waters newsgroup. Their styles are so completely different... not to
mention Hammill is far far far more prolific, and far less of a
perfectionist. :)
Michael Jones
wrote:
>
>I haven't read that many ATD-era interviews, so I'd like to know: is your
>interpretation the actual one Roger had in mind when writing it? I've
>turned up no less than six interpretations of Watching TV by other parties
>tonight, most of them close to The Doctor's.
I think "Watching TV" is one of those songs that causes epistemic dilemmas
in we fans. Roger is so known for his sarcasm/caricatures, and this song
so walks that line of 'reasonableness,' that a lot of us have trouble
deciphering Roger's actual meaning. (cf. the end of The Wall.)
I don't think Roger has ever been explicit about its meaning.
> Mind, I still think it's a
>poor song
Feh.
But then I'd rather be surrounded by a bunch of people who claim that
"Watching TV" is a poor song, than by a bunch of fans claiming "Radio
Waves" is a killer song. :-)
Shawn Leventhal
KJD <ke...@NOSPAM.petra.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:940973362.16118.0...@news.demon.co.uk...
Shawn Leventhal
problems....
Yes, I hear your point, and yes, sometimes I get the feeling Roger is a bit
racist, but no one is completely free of stereotyping and prejudice. Often
I think, hmmm, maybe Roger is an anti-Semite, then I no longer give it a
thought....I can't stand people who are so into what's "PC" and that cry
over every stupid racial slur. They are just words people, and the second
you stop reacting harshly to them, the second they loose their meaning.
Ryan D. and Amy K. Kearns
The only complaint I have against Henley these days is his fickleness (or it
could be the fickleness of Henley's recording label) going after some web site
owner whose real name happens to be Don Henley.
The songs that were played at the Waters' shows prior to Rog taking the stage
prompted me to pick up a copy of Henley's greatest hits -- "Sunset Grill" is
such an awesome song, and I had completely forgotten it until I heard it before
the Chicago show.
Diane Hall wrote:
> On Tue, 26 Oct 1999, Pierce Inverarity wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 25 Oct 1999 17:47:03 -0700, Diane Hall
> > <dh...@leland.Stanford.EDU> wrote:
> >
> > >Whoa. Dangerous line of thinking here. You could extend that line of
> > >reasoning to say that if she wasn't gorgeous, her death wouldn't have
> > >mattered so much. It certainly mattered to the TV audience that she was
> > >attractive, but as far as the actual value of her life goes, it shouldn't
> > >matter how she looked.
>
> >That's the point of the song
>
> I haven't read that many ATD-era interviews, so I'd like to know: is your
> interpretation the actual one Roger had in mind when writing it? I've
> turned up no less than six interpretations of Watching TV by other parties
Csquare4
>>Ought to check out the song "Our Oyster" by Peter Hammill on the classic
>>"Out of Water". This is a haunting commentary on much the same things as
>>Rog comes up with in AtD, with emphasis on Tiennamen Square. This from
the
>>"other" great rock lyricist...talk about a mental picture through lyrics,
>>this one gives me chills everytime I hear it (which I think I will listen
to
>>now).
>
>Wow, another Hammill fan!
>
>I don't see his name come up often... didn't expect to see him mentioned
>on a Waters newsgroup. Their styles are so completely different... not to
>mention Hammill is far far far more prolific, and far less of a
>perfectionist. :)
Yeah, Hammill is the only lyricist that I know of off hand, who really, and
I mean REALLY, has a firm grip on the intricacies of the English
language...I mean this guy speaks in allegories and metaphors that are
incredible. While Rog's lyrics are great, they are definitely more "out
front" so to speak, while the beauty and finesse of Hammill's lyrics may lie
beneath multiple layers of meaning...sometimes I will be listening to a
seemingly simple song for the hundredth time, and "click" I finally get it,
the meaning that is hidden in the words. This guy is the master. I have
now listened to "Out of Water" 3 times since my post last night, and every
song is a killer. He may not be the perfectionist that Rog is, but he damn
sure has an ability to project his emotions through his songs (plus, he has
a hell of a lot more vocal range!) ;-)
DCMIX
>Roger litterally instead of attempting to read between the lines.
Roger is a good vocalist but a brilliant story creator/teller/author. As in all
litrature you must read between the lines. If you take roger too literially i
think you will become deeply depressed and quite possibly jump off a bridge! He
uses poetic themes here and is not always historcally correct...
DCMIX
>need to hear about her boobs to get that message from the song. Hence the
>cringe.
Boobs make you cringe? What do you think of the statue of david? You can see
his scrotum! But it is hailed as art! Generations have admired this with out a
cringe. Again roger paints a picture and the point is missed. It caused you to
react, so that in and of its self may be the reason he sang about her brests.
DCMIX
>
But he painted a picture that stuck in your mind, right? you can almost see her
and her engineer dad. Perfect brests are more descriptive than "she had a
flanal shirt".
Roger painted a picture here. Dont forget just a century or 2 ago the art of
that era was basically nude. He used words that left an indelliable impression
on your mind.
DCMIX
>Square massacre, it makes it all the better.
Amen brother!
DCMIX
>cliche
You thought of sex when he sang this? Really? If he had said "dime size
nipples", "succlent thighs", "pouty red lips" i would have thought sex but not
as it as sung. sorry dont buy that one.
DCMIX
>who she was, what she stood for?
Nor does the fact that she was a pastry chef.
Pierce Inverarity
<inthebe...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>Your comments regarding 'yellow thighs' really hit a chord with me. This is
>the one moment when I really chringe during ATD, likewise TFC, with the
>imagery Roger used about 'the nips being so good at building ships'... Fair
>enough. I agree that Japan has been superlatively successful over the last
>20 years in civil engineering, electronics and world trade, but the use of the
>word 'nips' *offends* me. I often wondered whether Roger had a thing about
>Asia and Asian economies and the line in ATD seemed to confirm it.
Actually, most of TFC is told from the perspective of an English
schoolteacher who fought in WW2, IMO. In fact, I'd say everything up
to Not Now John is from his perspective. I believe that only Two Suns
in the Sunset is a song from Waters' perspective, although this too
may be the teacher's. If only the Final Cut video had been scripted
better and filmed better, we could say for sure.
BTW, this is probably the same teacher mentioned in tHDooL and ABitW2,
based on various lyrics ("teach, teach" and "trying to clout these
little ingrates into shape") and based on the fact that the guy who
played the schoolteacher in TW played the speaker in the Final Cut
video.
--
Pierce Inverarity
clea...@nonespecified.cjb.net
v1.2a s+r>d TW 1/0/r tinG 2? 0 WYWH/Meddle 12 39 6.4% <20oct99>
we own the air that you breathe.
the water that you drink.
you just dont know it yet.
Rogrocks
>schoolteacher who fought in WW2, IMO.
(snip)
>BTW, this is probably the same teacher mentioned in tHDooL and ABitW2,
>based on various lyrics ("teach, teach" and "trying to clout these
>little ingrates into shape") and based on the fact that the guy who
>played the schoolteacher in TW played the speaker in the Final Cut
>video.
>
That does make the album make more sense and I see nothing in the lyrics that
would go against that theory. BTW, in the line "and even now part of me flies
over Dresden at angels one five", does anyone know what the "at angels one
five" part means?
Matt
There's got to be more to life than lucky strikes and some unlucky ones, and
folded flags and pipes and drums. - Roger Waters
I held the blade in trembling hands prepared to make it but...I never had the
nerve to make the final cut. - Roger Waters
Carl Funk
>
> That does make the album make more sense and I see nothing in the lyrics that
> would go against that theory. BTW, in the line "and even now part of me flies
> over Dresden at angels one five", does anyone know what the "at angels one
> five" part means?
>
of 15,000 feet.
--
Carl Funk "nil illegitimi carborundum" ICQ#16282427
a.a atheist #1229 member, EAC Decryption Squad
to bypass my SPAM-deflector, it helps if you realize I am
asthmatic. i.e. no SMOKING please!
In The Beechwoods
itself is very much from Roger's perspective as a (sometimes nuerotic rock
star).
----------
Pierce Inverarity <clea...@w.a.s.t.e.com> wrote in message
news:38165595.19564927@news...
> On Tue, 26 Oct 1999 21:43:13 +0100, "In The Beechwoods"
> <inthebe...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>
> >Your comments regarding 'yellow thighs' really hit a chord with me. This
is
> >the one moment when I really chringe during ATD, likewise TFC, with the
> >imagery Roger used about 'the nips being so good at building ships'...
Fair
> >enough. I agree that Japan has been superlatively successful over the
last
> >20 years in civil engineering, electronics and world trade, but the use
of the
> >word 'nips' *offends* me. I often wondered whether Roger had a thing
about
> >Asia and Asian economies and the line in ATD seemed to confirm it.
>
> Actually, most of TFC is told from the perspective of an English
> schoolteacher who fought in WW2, IMO. In fact, I'd say everything up
> to Not Now John is from his perspective. I believe that only Two Suns
> in the Sunset is a song from Waters' perspective, although this too
> may be the teacher's. If only the Final Cut video had been scripted
> better and filmed better, we could say for sure.
>
> BTW, this is probably the same teacher mentioned in tHDooL and ABitW2,
> based on various lyrics ("teach, teach" and "trying to clout these
> little ingrates into shape") and based on the fact that the guy who
> played the schoolteacher in TW played the speaker in the Final Cut
> video.
>
Graham Nealon
> On 25 Oct 1999 21:40:03 GMT, Keith Levenberg
> <klev...@emerald.tufts.edu> wrote:
>
> >That's all well and good, but the original critique was that we didn't
> >need to hear about her boobs to get that message from the song. Hence the
> >cringe.
>
> YES, we did need it, because THAT is precisely the kind of the thing
> the media focus on! They're not going to choose a victim to highlight
> who has a less than perfect figure and wants to become a librarian!
> That is the point! Gah!
Any tabloid paper portraying a woman as a victim will use the phrase
"pretty" or make reference to her marital status or the number of kids
she has. Any male in a similar situation will be "kind-hearted" or
"devoted to his family". No doubt these people have not so nice aspects
to their characters but the media conventiently ignores them to promote
the single image suitable for the attention deficit audience of today.
In "Watching TV" you are given only the physical attributes of the girl
because the rest of the story is too complex and not of enough interest
to the viewing population to describe in detail. Yes those lines do
make you cringe but only because they reflect the current media so well.
Cheers
Graham
--
"Why is there only one Monopolies Commission?" - Screaming Lord Sutch
Csquare4
>of 15,000 feet.
You are correct sir! "Angels" is common pilot jargon for altitude in
thousands of feet, i.e., Angels one-zero, would be altitude 10,000 feet...
The Doctor
<inthebe...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> Jon,
>
> Your comments regarding 'yellow thighs' really hit a chord with me. This is
> the one moment when I really chringe during ATD, likewise TFC, with the
> imagery Roger used about 'the nips being so good at building ships'... Fair
> Asia and Asian economies and the line in ATD seemed to confirm it.
Then we have to commit 'yellow rose' as being racist too.
Right?
Yellow thighs points to skin color, not the color of her thighs.
So therefore yellow rose is also pointing to skin color as well.
Just a thought.
As far as 'nips' though on TFC, could it not be more of a WWII
reference and the way words were used and defined during that time?
I don't know if I can go as far and say it's all racist intent though.
Shock value maybe?
--
Posted via Talkway - http://www.talkway.com
Exchange ideas on practically anything (tm).
Pierce Inverarity
>>That's all well and good, but the original critique was that we didn't
>>need to hear about her boobs to get that message from the song. Hence the
>>cringe.
>
>Boobs make you cringe? What do you think of the statue of david? You can see
>his scrotum! But it is hailed as art! Generations have admired this with out a
>cringe. Again roger paints a picture and the point is missed. It caused you to
>react, so that in and of its self may be the reason he sang about her brests.
Um.
What in the world are you talking about?
--
Pierce Inverarity
clea...@nonespecified.cjb.net
v1.2a s+r>d TW 1/0/r tinG 2? 0 WYWH/Meddle 12 39 6.4% <20oct99>
Every day in every way I am getting better and better.
Pierce Inverarity
>But he painted a picture that stuck in your mind, right? you can almost see her
>and her engineer dad. Perfect brests are more descriptive than "she had a
>flanal shirt".
>Roger painted a picture here. Dont forget just a century or 2 ago the art of
>that era was basically nude. He used words that left an indelliable impression
>on your mind.
Um.
Pierce Inverarity
<sml...@stern.nyu.edu> wrote:
>Ever hear of the American Revolution?
Ever hear of the Civil War?
Keith Levenberg
: But he painted a picture that stuck in your mind, right? you can almost see her
: and her engineer dad. Perfect brests are more descriptive than "she had a
: flanal shirt".
: Roger painted a picture here. Dont forget just a century or 2 ago the art of
: that era was basically nude. He used words that left an indelliable impression
: on your mind.
You like many other people here seem to have misinterpreted my objection
to this line. I wasn't being prudish. I just find it to be bad writing.
Much as I love the guy's lyrics, he produces quite a few lines that
produce cringing. Usually it's the politics, in this case it's just
awkwardness.
Keith Levenberg
: I really think people that can become offended by mere words have serious
I agree with you completely, and I don't think by any stretch of the
imagination that Roger is prejudiced against anyone. But I do think that
when it comes to Mid East politics, he hasn't given it very much thought,
when one considers the knee-jerk opinions behind Amused to Death, Towers
of Faith, etc. And I don't care what some folks think, PSpt.2 is just a
glaring example to me.
DCMIX
>
>What in the world are you talking about?
Come on, do i have to explain this? Music is art. Art has many faces. Some art
like the statue of david is nude. It paints a picture. Are we to belive that
david walked around nude all the time, i think not, but that is the picture or
statue we have been given by the author. Same applys with "brests", he didnt
say tits, boobs, knockers. The only way he could have been more politically
correct would be to call them mamories. He is using striking images to give
this girls life. If the human body offends. You need blinders and earplugs.
Roger paints a picture where you can see her everything, skin color, profile,
family, occupation, familys occupation etc.
Did roger really have to say what her dad did to make a point with this song??
NO !
He used images, however bold, to paint a picture of a person. Lets see here how
about the PC Version of this song...
"she had dark hair
a couple of eyes
she had 2 arms too
and no alibies
she just stood there
waiting for the tank
stand stand stand
she thinks "when im done i gotta go to the bank"
blah blah blah......."
Hey roger, please keep giving us things in your songs that help paint images of
what your singing about, cus this other crap us mind nummingly boring.
The Doctor
Inverarity) wrote:
> On 27 Oct 1999 00:06:15 GMT, dc...@aol.com (DCMIX) wrote:
the art of
> >that era was basically nude. He used words that left an indelliable impression
> >on your mind.
> What in the world are you talking about?
Seems that art can be represented with nudity, and many classic works
of art consist of nudity. Made sense to me.
Diane Hall
> Actually, most of TFC is told from the perspective of an English
> schoolteacher who fought in WW2, IMO. In fact, I'd say everything up
> to Not Now John is from his perspective.
I disagree. I only apply the schoolmaster storyline to "One of the Few"
through "Paranoid Eyes." I think that there's enough internal evidence to
argue that "The Post-War Dream," "The Final Cut," and possibly the rest of
the songs are from the perspective of Waters or his alter ego ("Pink," if
you will). The lines "was it for this that daddy died?" and "would you
sell your story to Rolling Stone?" apply to Roger a lot more accurately
than they would to the schoolmaster (Did the schoolteacher's father die in
World War *One*? Why would *his* wife go to Rolling Stone magazine?)
> I believe that only Two Suns in the Sunset is a song from Waters'
> perspective, although this too may be the teacher's.
Well, the line "finally I understand the feelings of the few" rules out
the teacher's being the protagonist of TSitS, IMO. The teacher *is* "one
of the few," and although it's possible that it would take nuclear
holocaust for the man to relate to himself, I think it's more likely that
it's Waters/Pink finally understanding the teacher.
> If only the Final Cut video had been scripted
> better and filmed better, we could say for sure.
Well, on the evidence of the video, "TGD" is from the teacher, "TFC" is
basically about Roger/Pink, "NNJ" is about factory workers, and "TFMH" is
up in the air. "Not Now John" gets my vote for the most confusing song
Roger ever wrote, BTW. Thick factory workers + film industry + Roger
being sarcastic = ? Love the song, but it's very tangled.
> BTW, this is probably the same teacher mentioned in tHDooL and ABitW2,
> based on various lyrics ("teach, teach" and "trying to clout these
> little ingrates into shape") and based on the fact that the guy who
> played the schoolteacher in TW played the speaker in the Final Cut
> video.
Yeah, Roger confirmed this, saying that he was finally giving the teacher
a reason for being such a horrible guy. That's one reason I like the
thought of the narrator of TSitS being Roger/Pink-- he gets some closure
with the last of his antagonists from The Wall just before the world
disintegrates.
Diane Hall
> Your comments regarding 'yellow thighs' really hit a chord with me. This is
> the one moment when I really chringe during ATD, likewise TFC, with the
> imagery Roger used about 'the nips being so good at building ships'... Fair
> 20
> years in civil engineering, electronics and world trade, but the use of the
> word 'nips' *offends* me.
Well, I think that line is intended as sarcasm. I can deal with that in
the name of irony, but the following lines "and it can't be much fun for
them beneath the rising sun..." strike me as gratuitous sloppiness.
Invoking the ultimate stereotype associated with the Japanese (ritual
suicide) may jell with the overall feel of the song and album, but it
doesn't advance the plot any, IMO. Rebuttals desired.
The references to "wily Japanese" in "NNJ" also work for me, set in
context as they are with "bring the Russian bear to his knees." Roger is
clearly taking the piss here. As for other possible instances of
insensitivity to Asians:
WGW 1:
"pale blue Japanese guitar." Nothing bad there.
"Watching TV":
Already covered. I still think he showed poor judgement on this one.
"Too Much Rope":
Yes, "gook" is a horribly offensive word but in this case that's clearly
the point. You have the troubled veteran once sent off to kill "gooks",
returning decades later to commune with this nice little boy on a bicycle.
It's still jarring, but the context works.
"It's a Miracle":
"Yosemite's been turned into a golf course for the Japs." I'd call this
more pointless sloppiness. Even in context, set against the dubious
accomplishments of Pepsi, McDonald's, and car companies, it doesn't really
work. Yosemite as a golf course is an outrage, but there's no real reason
to use "Japs." He could have said "Yosemite's been turned into a
franchise for The Gap" and it would have been better, IMO. Again,
rebuttals wanted. If you can find a good reason why "Japs" was necessary
in that line, I'd like to hear it.
> RW rocks my world, The Final Cut is one of the finest songs ever committed
> to vinyl, but I can't stand the thought that he's racist. I'm sorry, but
> when it comes down to it, this is what I suspect, at least as far as
> far-east Asian cultures are concerned (and this is an often forgotten
> racism, as far as I'm concerned).
>
> Don't leap blindly to Roger's defence; think about it first. Everyone has
> their weaknesses, I used to be more militant than most, and I have mine; but
> it strikes me that there's something here.
Well, I wouldn't call it racism as much as I would call it insensitivity.
This all reminds me of the hostile letter David Gilmour provoked in a
reader of Q magazine earlier this year. Dave's remark about "bloody
paddies" didn't go over very well with the letter-writer. Waters just
could have put a little more thought into a few of his lines. Part of the
power of his lyrics, IMO, is his willingness to say things people will
find offensive if it gets his point across. In some cases, though, his
word choice begs the question "what the hell is his point in the first
place?"
Avatar
Keith Levenberg wrote:
> DCMIX <dc...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> : But he painted a picture that stuck in your mind, right? you can almost see her
> : and her engineer dad. Perfect brests are more descriptive than "she had a
> : flanal shirt".
> : Roger painted a picture here. Dont forget just a century or 2 ago the art of
> : that era was basically nude. He used words that left an indelliable impression
> : on your mind.
>
> You like many other people here seem to have misinterpreted my objection
> to this line. I wasn't being prudish. I just find it to be bad writing.
> Much as I love the guy's lyrics, he produces quite a few lines that
> produce cringing. Usually it's the politics, in this case it's just
> awkwardness.
How could you cringe at something like that but not cringe at "That no-good
low-down dirty rat" or "Mao Tse-tung got quite irate"? Those lines really DO
make me cringe every time I hear them, and I can't think of any other lines Rog
has written (outside of pros and cons maybe) that have the same effect.
Thom Paw
<< Yosemite as a golf course is an outrage, but there's no real reason
to use "Japs." He could have said "Yosemite's been turned into a
franchise for The Gap" and it would have been better, IMO. Again,
rebuttals wanted. If you can find a good reason why "Japs" was necessary
in that line, I'd like to hear it. >>
Isn't the consessions at many of the the U.S. National Parks being sold off, of
which some Japanese companies have bought into?
Yes, I think this is true, with the conssesion rights at Yosemite being a
headline grabber.
And the notion of turning it into a golf course could be equal to turning it
into The Gap, but why would a Japanese company by into that retail chain?
just some insight . . .
~~thomp
Shawn Leventhal
breasts perfect breasts perfect breasts, yellow thighs, yellow thighs,
yellow thighs....
GROW UP ALREADY!!!!! They are just WORDS!!!! I feel So sorry for you if
your self esteem is SO low that words can hurt you. What are you in second
grade??? Pathetic, it is.
Thom Paw <tho...@aol.comBLTZZZZ> wrote in message
news:19991030121259...@ng-fb1.aol.com...
Thom Paw
<<Japs japs japs, nips nips nips, jews jews jews, arabs arabs arabs, perfect
breasts perfect breasts perfect breasts, yellow thighs, yellow thighs,
yellow thighs....
GROW UP ALREADY!!!!! They are just WORDS!!!! I feel So sorry for you if
your self esteem is SO low that words can hurt you. What are you in second
grade??? Pathetic, it is.
>>
How do you have so much insight into this matter?
you are a Star Wars Geek and I claim my ten squid.
~~ thomp
TominlaCA
: Japs japs japs, nips nips nips, jews jews jews, arabs arabs arabs, perfect
: breasts perfect breasts perfect breasts, yellow thighs, yellow thighs,
: yellow thighs....
: GROW UP ALREADY!!!!! They are just WORDS!!!! I feel So sorry for you if
: your self esteem is SO low that words can hurt you. What are you in second
: grade??? Pathetic, it is.
here are some words that show insight into the the person you are:
Posting History: "Shawn Leventhal" <sml...@stern.nyu.edu>
There are 689 unique messages by
"Shawn Leventhal" <sml...@stern.nyu.edu>
(numbers may be slightly skewed by cross-postings) Get all 689 messages
Number of Messages Forum
340 alt.music.roger-waters
162 alt.tv.dallas
79 alt.music.billy-joel
35 alt.smokers.cigars
25 alt.music.pink-floyd
21 alt.drugs.pot
6 alt.videos.bootlegs
2 alt.music.bootlegs
1 alt.tv.commercials
BAWHAHAWWW HAAWWWWW HA !
now That's funny. do we dare sample your discussion in alt.tv.dallas??
Shawn Leventhal
I'm just really tired of people in this world being so over sensitive to
words and things which have no inherent value.
Thom Paw <tho...@aol.comBLTZZZZ> wrote in message
> "Shawn Leventhal" writes in with......
>
perfect
> breasts perfect breasts perfect breasts, yellow thighs, yellow thighs,
> yellow thighs....
> GROW UP ALREADY!!!!! They are just WORDS!!!! I feel So sorry for you if
> your self esteem is SO low that words can hurt you. What are you in
second
> grade??? Pathetic, it is.
> >>
>
Shawn Leventhal
it's pretty cool, I'll give you that, but doesn't make much sense.
And Dallas has to be the greatest show on TV...so what If I'm addicted to
watching it??? I'm proud of it...with all the shows on TV today, it's still
got more character development, better plot lines (excluding the last couple
seasons), and more excitement.
For those that want to try it out, it's on everyday on TNN.
But I will say one thing.....that was very cool how you did that.
Shawn Leventhal
don't care about people reading my posts, which Is why I keep my own name
and post publicly...unlike you of course who hides behind a fake one.
In The Beechwoods
I'm surprised.
Surely you have an understanding of how simple words can affect someone. I
suppose that it might help if you were subject to verbal abuse each and
every day, which is often the way for some people these days. The occasional
comment - no problem, but day in, day out? It's got sod-all to do with
self-esteem.
Your comments may seem clever. My initial post on this was written knowing
that Roger is one very intelligent person, who adopts disguises which
portray characters (I'm not so simple as to assume that the words 'jew' ,
'coon' or 'queer' in 'In The Flesh' make Roger racist, anti-semitic or
homophobic; but his character at that point: yes). Think on the fact that
Roger's comments regarding asian culture and people have been a small
recurring theme. It's this recurrence that sent my mind going.
Words *do* have an effect - think on how effective Roger's are.
--------------
Shawn Leventhal <sml...@stern.nyu.edu> wrote in message
news:0sFS3.16$rV4....@typhoon.nyu.edu...
> Japs japs japs, nips nips nips, jews jews jews, arabs arabs arabs, perfect
> breasts perfect breasts perfect breasts, yellow thighs, yellow thighs,
> yellow thighs....
> GROW UP ALREADY!!!!! They are just WORDS!!!! I feel So sorry for you if
> your self esteem is SO low that words can hurt you. What are you in
second
> grade??? Pathetic, it is.
>
>
> Thom Paw <tho...@aol.comBLTZZZZ> wrote in message
Shawn Leventhal
intelligent and thought out as this one....I really just wanted to make a
blanket statement about how people are too concerned these days with being
PC, and with nit-picking words...I just feel as though it's when we let
labels define and threaten us that we succumb to those labels.
It was just my thoughts....and my post where I repeated all the words, well,
I was trying to prove a point, which obviously by the responses I got,
didn't get across.
Oh well....better luck next time, I suppose.
In The Beechwoods <inthebe...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:7vicsf$jik$1...@news1.cableinet.co.uk...
CHARLOTTE HENDRY
"great" poetry. Put it this way: I'm an English teacher - and no I'm not
saying that that makes me "qualified" to judge in any way, but I do hold
with the tenet that good stuff has - to put it bluntly - lots there to think
about. I've let my students loose on a couple of Hammill songs over the
last few years, and they have written reams about them (not to mention
producing dramatised versions!). I think the reason is that great writing
poses more questions than it answers, and this is certainly true of a song
like Our Oyster, despite its being one of his more didactic ones. Yes, it
really is possible to "click" a new meaning (not necessarily the "right"
one, whatever that means) even when returning to old favourites. A close
examination of PH's lyrics also reveals an astonishingly assured use of
word-play, alliteration and assonance (check out Always is Next from the
album This for some impressive criss-crossing rhyming). The guy's a genius.
Incidentally, I'm forced to teach a poem about and called Tiannanmen; Our
Oyster is miles better (and the Waters one, no doubt)...
Charlotte
----------
In article <iorR3.1664$Pk....@news1.atl>, "Csquare4"
<c_ch...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
>>>Ought to check out the song "Our Oyster" by Peter Hammill on the classic
>>>"Out of Water". This is a haunting commentary on much the same things as
>>>Rog comes up with in AtD, with emphasis on Tiennamen Square. This from
>the
>>>"other" great rock lyricist...talk about a mental picture through lyrics,
>>>this one gives me chills everytime I hear it (which I think I will listen
>to
>>>now).
>>
>>Wow, another Hammill fan!
>>
>>I don't see his name come up often... didn't expect to see him mentioned
>>on a Waters newsgroup. Their styles are so completely different... not to
>>mention Hammill is far far far more prolific, and far less of a
>>perfectionist. :)
>
>Yeah, Hammill is the only lyricist that I know of off hand, who really, and
>I mean REALLY, has a firm grip on the intricacies of the English
>language...I mean this guy speaks in allegories and metaphors that are
>incredible. While Rog's lyrics are great, they are definitely more "out
>front" so to speak, while the beauty and finesse of Hammill's lyrics may lie
>beneath multiple layers of meaning...sometimes I will be listening to a
>seemingly simple song for the hundredth time, and "click" I finally get it,
>the meaning that is hidden in the words. This guy is the master. I have
>now listened to "Out of Water" 3 times since my post last night, and every
>song is a killer. He may not be the perfectionist that Rog is, but he damn
>sure has an ability to project his emotions through his songs (plus, he has
>a hell of a lot more vocal range!) ;-)
>>
>>
>>
>>--
>>Michael Jones
>>e-mail: z...@iglou.comPOST.IT
>> AIM: Zvpunry
>> ICQ: 34802589
>
>
Bleech_
<sml...@stern.nyu.edu> spewed forth:
>Ok, just figured it out...so you did a deja search......well, obviously I
>don't care about people reading my posts, which Is why I keep my own name
>and post publicly...unlike you of course who hides behind a fake one.
Don't know him very well, do you Shawn ?
--
=-=-=-==-=-=-==-=-=-==-=-=-==-=-=-==-=-=-==-=-=-==-=-=-==-=-=-==-==-=
I HAVE JERRY GARCIA'S EMACIATED CORPSE IN MY BASEMENT
To e-mail me, nevermind the BOLLOCKS | http://bleechworld.cjb.net
=-=-=-==-=-=-==-=-=-==-=-=-==-=-=-==-=-=-==-=-=-==-=-=-==-=-=-==-==-=
"What's this? Dung?!"
Floyd Code : v1.2a r BO 0/0/r tinG 0- 0 Animals/WYWH 18 94 18.2% <22oct99>
Bleech_
<sml...@stern.nyu.edu> spewed forth:
>I definitely see your point...and wish "other" people's responses were as
>intelligent and thought out as this one....I really just wanted to make a
>blanket statement about how people are too concerned these days with being
>PC,
It's idiotic. You're an idiotic fecal smear and your mother is a
dirty whore with a sloppy twat.
But after all Shawn, it's only words.
--
=-=-=-==-=-=-==-=-=-==-=-=-==-=-=-==-=-=-==-=-=-==-=-=-==-=-=-==-==-=
I HAVE JERRY GARCIA'S EMACIATED CORPSE IN MY BASEMENT
To e-mail me, nevermind the BOLLOCKS | http://bleechworld.cjb.net
=-=-=-==-=-=-==-=-=-==-=-=-==-=-=-==-=-=-==-=-=-==-=-=-==-=-=-==-==-=
"We ate sweet bun. It made us cheery."
Shawn Leventhal
rant of yours about me and my mother didn't have the slightest affect on me.
They ARE only words, and nothing but that. There's enough in this world to
bring you down without letting what people say, especially those that don't
know you, get you down.
Bleech_ <BOLLOCK...@ac.net> wrote in message
news:3821c472...@news.newsguy.com...
Shawn Leventhal
Bleech_ <BOLLOCK...@ac.net> wrote in message
news:3820c45a...@news.newsguy.com...
> On Sun, 31 Oct 1999 12:59:52 -0500, "Shawn Leventhal"
> <sml...@stern.nyu.edu> spewed forth:
>
> >Ok, just figured it out...so you did a deja search......well, obviously I
> >don't care about people reading my posts, which Is why I keep my own name
> >and post publicly...unlike you of course who hides behind a fake one.
>
> Don't know him very well, do you Shawn ?
> --
> =-=-=-==-=-=-==-=-=-==-=-=-==-=-=-==-=-=-==-=-=-==-=-=-==-=-=-==-==-=
> I HAVE JERRY GARCIA'S EMACIATED CORPSE IN MY BASEMENT
> To e-mail me, nevermind the BOLLOCKS | http://bleechworld.cjb.net
> =-=-=-==-=-=-==-=-=-==-=-=-==-=-=-==-=-=-==-=-=-==-=-=-==-=-=-==-==-=
>
> "What's this? Dung?!"
Diane Hall
> dhall writes with these lines among many others.....
>
> Isn't the consessions at many of the the U.S. National Parks being sold off, of
> which some Japanese companies have bought into?
>
> Yes, I think this is true, with the conssesion rights at Yosemite being a
> headline grabber.
Thanks for the info; I'll look into it.
> And the notion of turning it into a golf course could be equal to turning it
> into The Gap, but why would a Japanese company by into that retail chain?
They wouldn't have to. The "Gap" reference would be a way of showing the
tacky destruction of national parks without mentioning the Japanese.
Diane Hall
>I'm surprised
(snip)
Right. That's much better than I could have said it.
Bleech_
<sml...@stern.nyu.edu> spewed forth:
>I've never seen anything of his...is he a regular?
Been around far longer than you have, m'boy.
BTW, last I checked, Thom IS his real name.
--
=-=-=-==-=-=-==-=-=-==-=-=-==-=-=-==-=-=-==-=-=-==-=-=-==-=-=-==-==-=
I HAVE JERRY GARCIA'S EMACIATED CORPSE IN MY BASEMENT
To e-mail me, nevermind the BOLLOCKS | http://bleechworld.cjb.net
=-=-=-==-=-=-==-=-=-==-=-=-==-=-=-==-=-=-==-=-=-==-=-=-==-=-=-==-==-=
White guys : It will never fit if you force it
Bleech_
<sml...@stern.nyu.edu> spewed forth:
>But, you see Bleech, you just proved the point I was making....that little
>rant of yours about me and my mother didn't have the slightest affect on me.
>They ARE only words, and nothing but that.
Great, does that mean I can hapily refer to you as a shitheaded
fuckwit everywhere we go ? Can I call your mom "my good little bitch"
everywhere we go ?
Hopefully, you're not too dense to get the point.
--
=-=-=-==-=-=-==-=-=-==-=-=-==-=-=-==-=-=-==-=-=-==-=-=-==-=-=-==-==-=
I HAVE JERRY GARCIA'S EMACIATED CORPSE IN MY BASEMENT
To e-mail me, nevermind the BOLLOCKS | http://bleechworld.cjb.net
=-=-=-==-=-=-==-=-=-==-=-=-==-=-=-==-=-=-==-=-=-==-=-=-==-=-=-==-==-=
"My soul burns with the holy desire to SMASH YOUR FACE!!!!"
Richard
<Pine.GSO.3.96.991029...@elaine12.Stanford.EDU>,
dh...@leland.Stanford.EDU (Diane Hall) wrote:
> Well, I think that line is intended as sarcasm. I can deal with that in
> the name of irony, but the following lines "and it can't be much fun for
> them beneath the rising sun..." strike me as gratuitous sloppiness.
> Invoking the ultimate stereotype associated with the Japanese (ritual
> suicide) may jell with the overall feel of the song and album, but it
> doesn't advance the plot any, IMO. Rebuttals desired.
Well, I don't agree with your interpretation. By "beneath the rising sun"
I think he's referring to those who were losing out because "the Nips were
good at building ships" and perhaps specifically to the rising
unemployment in the British shipbuilding towns/cities. Much in the news
around that time were sad stories of young men that committed suicide
apparently because they could no longer find employment. My guess is that
RW has woven these two things together within these lyrics.
richard.
Pierce Inverarity
<dh...@leland.Stanford.EDU> wrote:
>> And the notion of turning it into a golf course could be equal to turning it
>> into The Gap, but why would a Japanese company by into that retail chain?
>
>They wouldn't have to. The "Gap" reference would be a way of showing the
>tacky destruction of national parks without mentioning the Japanese.
Last time I checked, the Gap didn't buy thousands of acres of public
land in the Western US, though.
--
Pierce Inverarity
clea...@nonespecified.cjb.net
v1.2a s+r>d TW 1/0/r tinG 2? 0 WYWH/Meddle 12 39 6.4% <20oct99>
malamikigo
Peter Benson
to the extreme pressures put on the workers in Japan as they rose to an
economic power. TFC is an awesome album.
Csquare4
CHARLOTTE HENDRY wrote in message
<7vihvk$ke5$1...@nclient15-gui.server.virgin.net>...
>Hammill is the only lyricist I know of whose lyrics really compare with
>"great" poetry. Put it this way: I'm an English teacher - and no I'm not
>saying that that makes me "qualified" to judge in any way, but I do hold
>with the tenet that good stuff has - to put it bluntly - lots there to
think
>about. I've let my students loose on a couple of Hammill songs over the
>last few years, and they have written reams about them (not to mention
>producing dramatised versions!).
Oh to have had a teacher as you...that would have been great as a teenager.
I remember doing a paper on "Dogs" in high school and my teacher literally
thrashed the paper, saying the work was a plagiarism of Animal Farm (which
it was, in a sense) and that it was a really poor choice for me to have the
audacity to think that "true artistic greatness" could be found in the
lyrics of a mere rock and roll song.
>The guy's a genius.
Yes, I agree.
>Incidentally, I'm forced to teach a poem about and called Tiannanmen; Our
>Oyster is miles better (and the Waters one, no doubt)...
>
>Charlotte
Teach them well. BTW, Charlotte, you are welcome to post here anytime
<HINT>
Rogrocks
>reference
>to the extreme pressures put on the workers in Japan as they rose to an
>economic power.
Given the WWII theme I've always seen it as a reference to Kamakazi pilots.
Matt
There's got to be more to life than lucky strikes and some unlucky ones, and
folded flags and pipes and drums. - Roger Waters
I held the blade in trembling hands prepared to make it but...I never had the
nerve to make the final cut. - Roger Waters
Keith Levenberg
:>I always felt the "beneath the rising sun"/"commiting suicide" was a
:>reference
:>to the extreme pressures put on the workers in Japan as they rose to an
:>economic power.
: Given the WWII theme I've always seen it as a reference to Kamakazi pilots.
Eh, I'd say you're both wrong. It was a big deal in the news many years
back when people were afraid that Japan was going to take over the West,
that their schools were so competitive, that very young children were
committing suicide because they could not get into the most competitive
kindergarten, elementary, etc.-level schools. It's a phenomenon that
probably had some basis in fact but not nearly as much as people made of
it, that quickly became a powerful symbol of "what we're up against"
In The Beechwoods
insensitive that's all :o)
It's up to *good people* to challenge discrimination, rather than tolerate
it.
Interesting, don't you think that Rogers finest hour as far as non-polemic
political comment was Us And Them. A song where he comments of homelessness
that 'there's a lot of it about'. People can make a difference; and I
suppose Roger does by provoking discussions like this one...
Looking forward to his *full* analysis of the Yugoslav crisis on the next
LP!
----------------
Shawn Leventhal <sml...@stern.nyu.edu> wrote in message
news:z%2T3.31$GD5....@typhoon.nyu.edu...
> I definitely see your point...and wish "other" people's responses were as
> intelligent and thought out as this one....I really just wanted to make a
> blanket statement about how people are too concerned these days with being
> > > > dhall writes with these lines among many others.....
> > > >
> > > > << Yosemite as a golf course is an outrage, but there's no real
reason
> > > > to use "Japs." He could have said "Yosemite's been turned into a
> > > > franchise for The Gap" and it would have been better, IMO. Again,
> > > > rebuttals wanted. If you can find a good reason why "Japs" was
> > necessary
> > > > in that line, I'd like to hear it. >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Isn't the consessions at many of the the U.S. National Parks being
> sold
> > > off, of
> > > > which some Japanese companies have bought into?
> > > >
> > > > Yes, I think this is true, with the conssesion rights at Yosemite
> being
> > a
> > > > headline grabber.
> > > >
> > > > And the notion of turning it into a golf course could be equal to
> > turning
> > > it
> > > > into The Gap, but why would a Japanese company by into that retail
> > chain?
> > > >
bedw...@mindspring.com
>Interesting, don't you think that Rogers finest hour as far as non-polemic
>political comment was Us And Them. A song where he comments of homelessness
>that 'there's a lot of it about'. People can make a difference; and I
>suppose Roger does by provoking discussions like this one...
I do think that was one of his finest lyrics but not because of homelessness.
Remember that was not an issue in the early seventies. I think that at the time
he more likely had race relations and/or warthink on his mind. But as so often
happens with his best work, the lyrics are open to so many interpretations.
They are so easily 'customized' by each of us according to our own experience
and come to mean something very personal even when they don't specify exactly
what he's talking about. I think that in the broadest sense, U&T isn't about
any particular group but rather is about the entire concept of groups opposing
groups when cooperation so obviously would get more done and leave fewer people
in misery.
Bedwarmer
ROTFL? PATGOD? WDYWFM? AFAIK? IIRC?
http://www.mindspring.com/~ledgreen/ampfcentral/ampfaq/acro.htm
Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things.
bedw...@mindspring.com
>Well, I don't agree with your interpretation. By "beneath the rising sun"
>I think he's referring to those who were losing out because "the Nips were
>good at building ships" and perhaps specifically to the rising
>unemployment in the British shipbuilding towns/cities. Much in the news
>around that time were sad stories of young men that committed suicide
>apparently because they could no longer find employment. My guess is that
>RW has woven these two things together within these lyrics.
Being American tends to be a handicap when listening to Roger's lyrics. He
writes about things that for us are either, unknown, little known or differently
understood. The above is good case. To me the lyric means something more
general. That is, the changes in world economies as new national economies
become important. In this case, the Japanese. In the US it would be home
electrics and electronics and the automobile industries more than shipbuilding
but the principle still applies. The oil embargo that produced rampant
inflation in the seventies was quickly followed by another economic blow. By
the mid eighties you couldn't buy a TV or vcr that was manufactured in this
country and even Detroit acknowledged that Japanese cars were the best in the
world. FWIW, americans are now facing the erosion of another of our premiere
industries. Aviation. This time the enemy^h^h^h^h^h ;) competitor is Europe.
bedw...@mindspring.com
>Oh to have had a teacher as you...that would have been great as a teenager.
>I remember doing a paper on "Dogs" in high school and my teacher literally
>thrashed the paper, saying the work was a plagiarism of Animal Farm (which
>it was, in a sense) and that it was a really poor choice for me to have the
>audacity to think that "true artistic greatness" could be found in the
>lyrics of a mere rock and roll song.
I was fortunate enough to have had such teacher. She played CSN&Y and Joni
Mitchell for us. We spent a week on them and on friday had to turn in a paper
on 'Woodstock' and what the song meant to us.
Unfortunately I was at a point in my life wherein 1910 Fruitgum Co. was COOOOOL!