abortion
stone crest
thanks for adding some greatly needed compassion, it seems to be
a rarity of late in the world.
"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing
that ever has."
-Margaret Mead
-stone crest
i don't question our existence
i just question our modern needs
lyrics: http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~sgh/
-----------------------------------------------------------
Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.
Up to 100 minutes free!
http://www.keen.com
Earl
The reason why this confuses me? Because liberals are suppozed to be for the minorities, the people that can't defend themselves, the poor, the downtrodden.
Who is more defensless than a baby fetus? And if you argue a fetus isn't a person then you are sadly misinformed. After the third trimester, that fetus is a human life.
Conservatives are suppozed to be for personal freedoms, for government to stay out of our lives. So why do they want to restrict this personal freedom so badly?
I think the answer is this: Conservatives try to be moralistic. Liberal politicians just pretend to be moral. They scare you into not voting for conservativea. That is the truth.
BTW, I don't care at all about abortion, it doesn't concern me. I'm not a woman.
Weswindy
a nurse on a radio station describe several abortions she witnessed, and how
she kept saying "I am sorry, I am sorry -to the head of the baby as it lay
there torn apart." This made me almost cry to realize in the USA this is going
on. Also she said many babies are born alive in abortions but are never held
til so she held the baby for 45 minutes til it dies. The nurses are told not to
hold the baby. The fact Clinton okayed partial birth abortion is wicked to me.
This is a cruel procedure that even an animal never goes through. I would think
atheists as well as people who beleive in God the Creator would respect human
life more than this. It is just so wrong and why cant Eddie see it-he is such
a sensitive soul.
Eddie Hill
Weswindy wrote:
i believe he advocates nothing but the ability for people to make their own
decisions.
--
Eddie Hill
eh...@umr.edu
Senior, Aerospace Engineering
University of Missouri-Rolla
JTD
anyone is "pro abortion"....pro choice is what eddie is for...the freedom for a
woman to decide what she wants..it's her body..not yours, not mine, not the
governments...so where the hell do we get off telling a woman what she can and
can't do with that is hers?
K Johnson
Dan W
not occur, YES. Do I think its fair to deny a women the right to have an
abortion, NO.
"K Johnson" <s37...@student.uq.edu.au> wrote in message
news:39853A1D...@student.uq.edu.au...
sno...@mindspring.com
for other people...Ed Vedder said he has an extremely good reason to be pro
choice..he would have been father at 15..now, that is really what you want
for a teen and a baby? don't get me wrong, I don't say that teen should not
be more cautious..pro choice means , you need an abortion, get one...you
don't like it, don't get one...it is as simple as that...and there is
nothing else to say...this is a free country...choice should be everywhere
Pierre
Weswindy wrote in message <20000731020233...@ng-fc1.aol.com>...
lauriehester
Weswindy wrote:
> It is sad Eddie Vedder is pro abortion.
Wrong, he is pro choice. That means that he believes the individual should make
the decision according to her own religious beliefs, NOT the government. Get your
facts straight before you go spamming newsgroups.
Laurie
Danny McLindon
"anti-abortion" people are anti-choice. I think we as humans should have
the right to do as we please in whatever situation. But I also believe that
the growing fetus inside a woman is a human.
"JTD" <j...@san.rr.com> wrote in message news:39852F33...@san.rr.com...
> i don't recall eddie vedder saying he was "pro abortion" in fact...i don't
think
> anyone is "pro abortion"....pro choice is what eddie is for...the freedom
for a
> woman to decide what she wants..it's her body..not yours, not mine, not
the
> governments...so where the hell do we get off telling a woman what she can
and
> can't do with that is hers?
>
Lamia
Reg Smith <Napst...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>
> good call , its fucking wrong fullstop , who gives a fuck what Eddie
thinks , hes
> just an ignorant tool with no idea about how precious life is .
A tool of what or whom?
>A baby is born due
> to Karma which is built up from previous lives , when that life is
stopped before its
> due then it comes back again , yes we are all subject to rebirth ,
its part of life ,
> but when the mother of the unborn child decides to kill then she is
judged and judged
> harshly at the time of her death .
If you believe in karma then you must also believe that a fetus could
not be aborted unless its karma dictated that this should happen.
>I suggest Eddie and all you abortion supporting
> freaks go and read the Tibetan Book of the Dead and The Tibetan Book
of Living and
> Dying , then judge for yourself .
For all I know Ed has read them already -- I know that he had spoken
with Buddhist monks and nuns due to his involvement with the Tibet
Freedom Concert. But he is not a Buddhist. I am not a Buddhist. Most
of the people here are not Buddhists. Therefore we are under no
obligation to allow Buddhist teachings to dictate our moral beliefs.
>We as humans are failing to realise that we are
> going down hill fast . I would hate to see Eddie and Beth abort
their unborn child ,
> I bet they couldnt do it , even if they had some excuse they would
not do it ,
Ed has written very movingly about his personal experiences with
abortions. You can see a copy of the article he wrote on the issue for
"Spin" in the Five Horizons article archive at
http://www.fivehorizons.com/archive/articles/spin1192.html.
> sure
> hes sayin women have the right to make their own choice , but not
with another life ,
> they are not God and have no right to play this role ! , I could go
on and on about
> this but I wont .
We can all be thankful for that.
--
-Lamia
*Amazon Academy*
http://www.geocities.com/yellowlamia
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Lamia
He is? News to me. I must have missed him saying, "Abortions are
great! Abortions for everyone! Have an abortion today!"
>He seems like a nice man.
He is a nice man.
>I listened to
> a nurse on a radio station describe several abortions she witnessed,
and how
> she kept saying "I am sorry, I am sorry -to the head of the baby as
it lay
> there torn apart." This made me almost cry to realize in the USA this
is going
> on. Also she said many babies are born alive in abortions but are
never held
> til so she held the baby for 45 minutes til it dies. The nurses are
told not to
> hold the baby.
This is the stupidest thing I have heard all day. Either the nurse is
a liar or you misunderstood what she was saying.
>The fact Clinton okayed partial birth abortion is wicked to me.
> This is a cruel procedure that even an animal never goes through. I
would think
> atheists as well as people who beleive in God the Creator would
respect human
> life more than this.
There is no such thing as partial birth abortion. "Partial birth
abortion" is not a medical term and has no medical definition. The
term is a political invention meant to appeal to people's emotions.
Even as a political term is has no solid definition and has been used
to apply to any number of different abortion procedures. This is why
it cannot be banned. You might as well ban the Dire Drefkan Procedure,
a term which I just made up a moment ago and could apply to anything I
like.
>It is just so wrong and why cant Eddie see it-he is such
> a sensitive soul.
Maybe because he is smart enough not to swallow everything the anti-
abortion contingent says.
lauriehester
government should not be making moral decisions or financial decisions for us. Traditionally, the Republicans were the party of the conservative, and most conservatives still vote
Republican. However, in recent years, the Christian political groups headed by the "Moral Minority" and other powerful TV preachers, etc, have taken over the Republican party.
These people want to use the government to legislate their morals, in contradiction with the philosophy of the conservatives. However, most conservatives happen to be Christians,
and therefore Christian morals have become an important part of their agenda, and they fail to see the hypocrisy of the government intruding on a very private part of people's lives.
Liberals, as you say, are usually for the downtrodden. However, you have to believe first of all, that a fetus is a person, and this is basically a religious issue. Most liberals
accept the definition that until a baby is viable (capable of living without the mother as life support), then it is not an individual. Don't want to get into the right or wrong of
this definition; just accept that this is the logic. If it is not an individual yet, then the mother's rights are paramount. Liberals have always championed women's rights, and
this is seen as a woman's right to first of all, choose her religion and her own definition of when life begins, to choose her destiny and pursue life and liberty, and to choose when
she wants to have children. Control over her reproduction system IS control over her life. A woman does not have the same basic right as a man to live his life as he chooses, to be
free, UNLESS she has control over her reproduction system. It's not a freedom that men give up lightly (many wars are started over freedom issues), and not a freedom that women will
give up lightly.
Hope this explains why the political parties take the sides on this issue that they do. By the way, my mother refuses to vote for anti-choice Republicans, even though she is a
registered Republican and waaay beyond the time when she would have to face the choice herself.
Laurie
lauriehester
Laurie
Reg Smith wrote:
> good call , its fucking wrong fullstop , who gives a fuck what Eddie thinks , hes
> just an ignorant tool with no idea about how precious life is . A baby is born due
> to Karma which is built up from previous lives , when that life is stopped before its
> due then it comes back again , yes we are all subject to rebirth , its part of life ,
> but when the mother of the unborn child decides to kill then she is judged and judged
> harshly at the time of her death . I suggest Eddie and all you abortion supporting
> freaks go and read the Tibetan Book of the Dead and The Tibetan Book of Living and
> Dying , then judge for yourself . We as humans are failing to realise that we are
> going down hill fast . I would hate to see Eddie and Beth abort their unborn child ,
> I bet they couldnt do it , even if they had some excuse they would not do it , sure
> hes sayin women have the right to make their own choice , but not with another life ,
> they are not God and have no right to play this role ! , I could go on and on about
> this but I wont .
>
> ' I wish I was an Alien at home behind the sun '
>
> > Weswindy wrote:
> >
> > > It is sad Eddie Vedder is pro abortion. He seems like a nice man. I listened to
> > > a nurse on a radio station describe several abortions she witnessed, and how
> > > she kept saying "I am sorry, I am sorry -to the head of the baby as it lay
> > > there torn apart." This made me almost cry to realize in the USA this is going
> > > on. Also she said many babies are born alive in abortions but are never held
> > > til so she held the baby for 45 minutes til it dies. The nurses are told not to
> > > hold the baby. The fact Clinton okayed partial birth abortion is wicked to me.
> > > This is a cruel procedure that even an animal never goes through. I would think
> > > atheists as well as people who beleive in God the Creator would respect human
> > > life more than this. It is just so wrong and why cant Eddie see it-he is such
> > > a sensitive soul.
> >
jr
problem is with murder, not control of one's reproduction system
jr
JTD wrote in message <39852F33...@san.rr.com>...
>i don't recall eddie vedder saying he was "pro abortion" in fact...i don't
think
>anyone is "pro abortion"....pro choice is what eddie is for...the freedom
for a
>woman to decide what she wants..it's her body..not yours, not mine, not the
>governments...so where the hell do we get off telling a woman what she can
and
>can't do with that is hers?
>
lauriehester
Danny McLindon wrote:
> I think that pro choice is equally as bad a term because it assumes that we
> "anti-abortion" people are anti-choice. I think we as humans should have
> the right to do as we please in whatever situation. But I also believe that
> the growing fetus inside a woman is a human.
So you are anti-abortion and pro-choice. Exactly what I am. So when those two
positions collide, as in a woman who is pregnant and isn't willing to go through
with the pregnancy, what happens? Do you decide? Do I decide? Does the
government decide? Bottom line, it's her choice. You and I who dislike
abortion, should make it our goal to make sure, through education and free birth
control, that unwanted pregnancies don't happen. It is through prevention that
pro-life and pro-choice can work together. Once the unwanted pregnancy happens,
it is not our place to tell any woman what to do.
Laurie
jr
truly self explanatory.
jr
Lamia wrote in message <8m45a8$vjd$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>In article <20000731020233...@ng-fc1.aol.com>,
> wesw...@aol.com (Weswindy) wrote:
>> It is sad Eddie Vedder is pro abortion.
>
>He is? News to me. I must have missed him saying, "Abortions are
>great! Abortions for everyone! Have an abortion today!"
>
>>He seems like a nice man.
>
>He is a nice man.
>
>>I listened to
>> a nurse on a radio station describe several abortions she witnessed,
>and how
>> she kept saying "I am sorry, I am sorry -to the head of the baby as
>it lay
>> there torn apart." This made me almost cry to realize in the USA this
>is going
>> on. Also she said many babies are born alive in abortions but are
>never held
>> til so she held the baby for 45 minutes til it dies. The nurses are
>told not to
>> hold the baby.
>
>This is the stupidest thing I have heard all day. Either the nurse is
>a liar or you misunderstood what she was saying.
>
>>The fact Clinton okayed partial birth abortion is wicked to me.
>> This is a cruel procedure that even an animal never goes through. I
>would think
>> atheists as well as people who beleive in God the Creator would
>respect human
>> life more than this.
>
>There is no such thing as partial birth abortion. "Partial birth
>abortion" is not a medical term and has no medical definition. The
>term is a political invention meant to appeal to people's emotions.
>Even as a political term is has no solid definition and has been used
>to apply to any number of different abortion procedures. This is why
>it cannot be banned. You might as well ban the Dire Drefkan Procedure,
>a term which I just made up a moment ago and could apply to anything I
>like.
>
>>It is just so wrong and why cant Eddie see it-he is such
>> a sensitive soul.
>
stone crest
pro choice is what eddie is for...the freedom for a
>woman to decide what she wants..it's her body..not yours, not
mine, not the
>governments...so where the hell do we get off telling a woman
what she can and
>can't do with that is hers?
>
pro choice advocates always use the same ludicrous argument...i
suppose the 'woman's body' spontaneously splits in two and
*poof* a baby is born right? no! geez...the reason a baby is
born is because it has been living in the mother's womb for 9
months...it is a living being, incapably of sustaining life on
it's own, but an entirely living being nonetheless...and i feel
that taking that life away is wrong, just as killing a paralyzed
man is...
and secondly...you're so worried about the governemt taking away
the right to 'choose', taking away our 'rights'...are you upset
that the government has outlawed murder? rape? theft? these are
all freedoms of choice, taken from us...oh no...now if they take
away a freedom that allows the choice to kill our own son or
daughter, we're all doomed to hell...next will be freedom of
speech, and then freedom to assemble, etc...
nonsense.
oshuns
Weswindy <wesw...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000731020233...@ng-fc1.aol.com...
> It is sad Eddie Vedder is pro abortion.
you discredit your thinking in your first sentence. being PRO CHOICE (oy
vay ive had to break out the caps) is NOT the same thing as being PRO
ABORTION. you probably couldnt fill a small room with people who are pro
abortion. until you learn that there is a difference....well....you should
just allow yourself to see the difference.
s
He seems like a nice man. I listened to
> a nurse on a radio station describe several abortions she witnessed, and
how
> she kept saying "I am sorry, I am sorry -to the head of the baby as it lay
> there torn apart." This made me almost cry to realize in the USA this is
going
> on. Also she said many babies are born alive in abortions but are never
held
> til so she held the baby for 45 minutes til it dies. The nurses are told
not to
> hold the baby. The fact Clinton okayed partial birth abortion is wicked to
me.
> This is a cruel procedure that even an animal never goes through. I would
think
> atheists as well as people who beleive in God the Creator would respect
human
> life more than this. It is just so wrong and why cant Eddie see it-he is
such
> a sensitive soul.
Eddie Hill
Reg Smith wrote:
> good call , its fucking wrong fullstop , who gives a fuck what Eddie thinks , hes
> just an ignorant tool with no idea about how precious life is . A baby is born due
> to Karma which is built up from previous lives , when that life is stopped before its
> due then it comes back again , yes we are all subject to rebirth , its part of life ,
> but when the mother of the unborn child decides to kill then she is judged and judged
> harshly at the time of her death . I suggest Eddie and all you abortion supporting
> freaks go and read the Tibetan Book of the Dead and The Tibetan Book of Living and
> Dying
If I don't believe what my own religion tells me about he subject, why would I believe
another one?
> , then judge for yourself . We as humans are failing to realise that we are
> going down hill fast . I would hate to see Eddie and Beth abort their unborn child ,
> I bet they couldnt do it , even if they had some excuse they would not do it , sure
> hes sayin women have the right to make their own choice , but not with another life ,
> they are not God and have no right to play this role ! , I could go on and on about
> this but I wont .
>
> ' I wish I was an Alien at home behind the sun '
>
> > Weswindy wrote:
> >
> > > It is sad Eddie Vedder is pro abortion. He seems like a nice man. I listened to
> > > a nurse on a radio station describe several abortions she witnessed, and how
> > > she kept saying "I am sorry, I am sorry -to the head of the baby as it lay
> > > there torn apart." This made me almost cry to realize in the USA this is going
> > > on. Also she said many babies are born alive in abortions but are never held
> > > til so she held the baby for 45 minutes til it dies. The nurses are told not to
> > > hold the baby. The fact Clinton okayed partial birth abortion is wicked to me.
> > > This is a cruel procedure that even an animal never goes through. I would think
> > > atheists as well as people who beleive in God the Creator would respect human
> > > life more than this. It is just so wrong and why cant Eddie see it-he is such
> > > a sensitive soul.
> >
Chris Myers
frothed at the mouth and spewed forth:
>
>
>Weswindy wrote:
>
>> It is sad Eddie Vedder is pro abortion.
>
>Wrong, he is pro choice. That means that he believes the individual should make
>the decision according to her own religious beliefs, NOT the government. Get your
>facts straight before you go spamming newsgroups.
>
>Laurie
"my body's nobodys body but mine, you run your own body, let me run
mine"
Pro Choice, I have no right to tell someone how to choose, I do have a
right to try to inform people of the circumstances of their actions.
I am Pro Choice. And yes, I can be Pro Choice and still feel Abortion
is wrong. I Also believe people should not be allowed to engage in
sex Until they are 20, when most start getting a grasp on reality
outside of school. These are my Beliefs and My Feelings, And whatever
you say can not change my views, only further educate me on the
feelings you believe in.
Having said that....
Isn't it awfully nice to have a penis,
Isn't it frightfully good to have a dong?
It's swell to have a stiffy,
It's divine to own a dick,
From the tiniest little tadger,
To the world's biggest prick.
So three cheers for your Willy or John Thomas,
Hooray for your one-eyed trouser snake,
Your piece of pork, your wife's best friend,
Your Percy or your cock,
You can wrap it up in ribbons,
You can slip it in your sock,
But don't take it out in public,
Or they will stick you in the dock,
And you won't come back.
Composer: Eric Idle
Author: Eric Idle
Melissa Bartman
Newton's Three Laws. The other two being "force equals mass times
acceleration" and "a body in motion tends to stay in motion/ a body at
rest tends to stay at rest" aka the law of inertia. If I remember
correctly.
Melissa (who has taken too many physics classes in her life)
Reg Smith wrote:
>
> PS , dont forget Karma is the law of cause and effect - remember Albert Einsteins equation - for every force theres an equal and opposite reaction
--
email: bar...@brandeis.edu
AIM: MeliBsmile
"There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow men...true
nobility is being superior to your former self." --Thom Yorke of
Radiohead
Rai
Awww, for Christ's sake....didn't we already have this discussion three days ago,
fourteen times last month, and a grand total of 116,904 times since Chirstmas???
Hell, I don't even have to read the follow-up posts, I already know what EVERYONE
has to say. Just drop it, for crying out loud! You don't have to defend your
position EACH and EVERY time some fuckhole shows up to stir up some controversy.
--
Rai
"I never end my messages with a damn quote."
Lamia
"jr" <rad...@adamsNOSPAM.net> wrote:
> I'm afraid partial birth abortion is used in medical
circles.......and it is
> truly self explanatory.
I'm not saying no doctor has ever used the term, but it is not a
recognized medical term. If you can find any evidence to contradict
this I will happily eat my words, but I don't expect to have to do it.
For what it's worth, the partial birth abortion ban in my state was
worded so broadly that it could be interpreted as banning not only ALL
abortions, but also several forms of contraception (IUDs and the Pill
included). Tell me that's a self-explanatory use of the term.
Lamia
Reg Smith <Napst...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>
> you are missing my point , sure I have no right to impose my
socalled Religious beliefs on
> anyone , Im not trying to sway anyone , Im a just stating the facts
from a Religion
> (Buddhism ) thats closer to modern science than any other ,
Not as close as the Church of the Invisible Pink Unicorn.
>ie photons accelerating
> backwards thru time , the big bang , the ever expanding universe
(18,000 miles per second
> in all directions ) , anyway enough science , from this I a only
saying that Women who
> abort living souls are wrong for what they do . Is it Karma that
makes the baby become
> aborted ?, no , the child is meant to live out its life in the full .
Karma must not be a very powerful force if it cannot prevent a fetus
that was meant to be carried to term from being aborted.
> Where do you think
> souls come from ? theres no factory in the sky where your God creates
them , its all death
> and rebirth .
My god, aye? What god would that be? I don't believe in gods. I
don't believe in souls either.
>If you think a baby deserved to die without seeing the light of day
due to
> Karma then you can say the people whom died at Roskilde deserved it ,
is that right ?
Yes, if you believe in karma, which I do not. Isn't that the point of
karma, to see to it that people get the lives and deaths that they
deserve? If you believe in karma then you must believe that people die
only when and how they deserve to die.
> the Karma cops get everyone eventually .
Then why bother banning abortion?
Eddie Hill
Rai wrote:
> Weswindy tried to raise some shit, and did:
>
> Awww, for Christ's sake....didn't we already have this discussion three days ago,
> fourteen times last month, and a grand total of 116,904 times since Chirstmas???
> Hell, I don't even have to read the follow-up posts, I already know what EVERYONE
> has to say. Just drop it, for crying out loud! You don't have to defend your
> position EACH and EVERY time some fuckhole shows up to stir up some controversy.
>
Yea, you're right. I've noticed (in the year I've been hanging around here) that
most conversations come down to: guns, abortion, other bands, and the name of a PJ
song I heard on the radio, but didn't know what it was. In an effort to streamline,
I suggest everyone post their agenda, we'll all read it, and we can move on.
Politics: Liberal
gun control: favor
abortion: pro choice
good bands: PJ, STP, AIC, Nirvana, Beatles, Doors, Led Zepplin, Aerosmith, Bush,
Toadies, Collective Soul, GNR, Godsmack, Creed (gasp), and Red Hot Chilli Peppers,
and Stevie Ray Vaughn
bad bands: KoRn (only their new stuff), Limp Bizcuit, Kid Rock, all boy bands and
Spears-a-likes, System of a Down, Eminem
name of the PJ song you heard: Yellow Ledbetter
Now, what's left to talk about. . .
>
> --
> Rai
>
> "I never end my messages with a damn quote."
--
stone crest
>
>Weswindy <wesw...@aol.com> wrote in message
>news:20000731020233...@ng-fc1.aol.com...
>
CHOICE (oy
>vay ive had to break out the caps) is NOT the same thing as
being PRO
>ABORTION. you probably couldnt fill a small room with people
who are pro
>abortion. until you learn that there is a
difference....well....you should
>just allow yourself to see the difference.
but being pro choice says that other people can do as they
please, yes? now let me ask you this, are you pro choice when it
comes to murder or rape? perhaps you're against these, but do
you think other people have a right to murder or rape? so why is
abortion any different?
if i was pro choice for something like rape, then i think you
would all, without a doubt, say that i'm pro-rape, cuz my
philosophy would allow rapes rather than prevent them...
just wanted to add this
-stone crest
i don't question our existence
i just question our modern needs
lyrics: http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~sgh/
>
>s
-----------------------------------------------------------
Holly Jones
> BTW, I don't care at all about abortion, it doesn't concern me. I'm not a woman.
While this is certainly better than a vehement and uneducated stance based solely on the governing of others, I have to ask...
Are you a voter? If so, abortion does concern you, because your votes, either for or against abortion, (or for or against the supporters of choice) change lives.
If not, then I guess it really doesn't until/unless you're a father.
Holly
Vyvyn1
>a sensitive soul.
thats the reason he is pro-choice
I think pro-lifers are more numb that the other side, personally.
Yes, many partial birth abortions are certainly brutal... But this is an
issure of pro CHOICE, not pro abortion. No one is pro abortion, and if they
are, they should be locked up. Pro Choice means that a woman shoudl ahev the
right to decide what goes on in her body, even if it includes terminating a
life that ONLY SHE should be in charce of. It is still apart of her body. It
is hers... and first trimester aborions are completely non-problematic. It is
a fetus, nothing more. There are many problems with partial birth that need to
be taken into consideration, yes... but eddies sensitivity s the reason he is
so adamently for choice, because he is sensitive to the human need for choice.
"This is not a moral issue, its a human issue." -ev
amen
blues02
>I suggest Eddie and all you abortion supporting
>freaks go and read the Tibetan Book of the Dead and The Tibetan
>Book of Living and
Yeah that would change my mind. And the other nuts say to read
the Bible and be shown the light...yadda, yadda, yadda. Fiction
if fun but I like to deal with reality myself.
blues02
>but being pro choice says that other people can do as they
>please, yes? now let me ask you this, are you pro choice when it
>comes to murder or rape? perhaps you're against these, but do
>you think other people have a right to murder or rape? so why is
>abortion any different?
>if i was pro choice for something like rape, then i think you
>would all, without a doubt, say that i'm pro-rape, cuz my
>philosophy would allow rapes rather than prevent them...
>just wanted to add this
If murders and rapes could happen inside a woman's body then
your argument would hold water.
Lamia
"Melissa Zee" <melis...@prodigy.net> wrote:
>
> Eddie Hill <eh...@umr.edu> wrote in message
news:3985CA3A...@umr.edu...
> > Now, what's left to talk about. . .
> >
> >
> you forgot about about bootlegging, scalping, eddie's hair, and sun
vs. star
Oh, I was just about to post "Ed's hair" when I saw that you'd already
said it. That's one topic we will never exhaust.
Also "What is the line that follows 'take my hand, not my picture'
in 'Corduroy'?"
stone crest
>stone crest <stone_cre...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote:
>
>>but being pro choice says that other people can do as they
>>please, yes? now let me ask you this, are you pro choice when
it
>>comes to murder or rape? perhaps you're against these, but do
>>you think other people have a right to murder or rape? so why
is
>>abortion any different?
>>if i was pro choice for something like rape, then i think you
>>would all, without a doubt, say that i'm pro-rape, cuz my
>>philosophy would allow rapes rather than prevent them...
>>just wanted to add this
>
>If murders and rapes could happen inside a woman's body then
>your argument would hold water.
rapes usually do occur in a woman's body, yes?
-stone crest
i don't question our existence
i just question our modern needs
lyrics: http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~sgh/
>
>
Grn Eyes
JettKarma
>It is sad Eddie Vedder is pro abortion. He seems like a nice man. I listened to
>a nurse on a radio station describe several abortions she witnessed, and how
>she kept saying "I am sorry, I am sorry -to the head of the baby as it lay
>there torn apart." This made me almost cry to realize in the USA this is going
>on. Also she said many babies are born alive in abortions but are never held
>til so she held the baby for 45 minutes til it dies. The nurses are told not to
>hold the baby. The fact Clinton okayed partial birth abortion is wicked to me.
>This is a cruel procedure that even an animal never goes through. I would think
>atheists as well as people who beleive in God the Creator would respect human
>life more than this. It is just so wrong and why cant Eddie see it-he is such
>a sensitive soul.
*************************************
You can't believe everything you hear--and I don't mean the part about
Ed being a sensitive soul. He probably is--but, he's probably also a
lot tougher than a lot of people around here give him credit for. :)
Whenever you hear something like this, ask yourself...is this story
designed to get me to feel or to think? If it aims to make you want
to cry, makes your heart swell with joy, makes you want to lynch
somebody, etc., I always suppose it's propaganda.
--Jett
JettKarma
>
> you are missing my point , sure I have no right to impose my socalled Religious beliefs on
>anyone , Im not trying to sway anyone , Im a just stating the facts from a Religion
>(Buddhism ) thats closer to modern science than any other , ie photons accelerating
>backwards thru time , the big bang , the ever expanding universe (18,000 miles per second
>in all directions ) , anyway enough science ,
*********************************
Buddhism is closer to a psychological philosophy than it is to the big
bang, quantum mechanics, etc.
from this I a only saying that Women who
>abort living souls are wrong for what they do . Is it Karma that makes the baby become
>aborted ?, no ,
*********************************
How do you know this? You don't.
the child is meant to live out its life in the full . Where do you
think
>souls come from ? theres no factory in the sky where your God creates them , its all death
>and rebirth . If you think a baby deserved to die without seeing the light of day due to
>Karma then you can say the people whom died at Roskilde deserved it , is that right ?
************************************
Your language is very slanted. No one is claiming anyone *deserves*
to die. You're setting up a false scenario.
>the Karma cops get everyone eventually .
>my view is abortion is murder , a baby gets killed at 3 days after being born - thats
>murder right , a baby gets killed at 3 months after being conceived and thats ok is it , I
>think not .
>*********************************
If that's your view, don't have an abortion.
--Jett
JettKarma
>blues02 <blu...@inlink.com> wrote:
>>stone crest <stone_cre...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>>but being pro choice says that other people can do as they
>>>please, yes? now let me ask you this, are you pro choice when
>it
>>>comes to murder or rape? perhaps you're against these, but do
>>>you think other people have a right to murder or rape? so why
>is
>>>abortion any different?
>>>if i was pro choice for something like rape, then i think you
>>>would all, without a doubt, say that i'm pro-rape, cuz my
>>>philosophy would allow rapes rather than prevent them...
>>>just wanted to add this
>>
>>If murders and rapes could happen inside a woman's body then
>>your argument would hold water.
>
>rapes usually do occur in a woman's body, yes?
>
****************************
I think the intention in the argument was that if the event could be
wholly contained within a woman's body, then the position would hold
water.
--Jett
stone crest
>i dont see how one could be pro choice when it comes to murder
or rape. i
>dont see the connection to abortion. an abortion is the end of
a pregnancy,
>and only one person is pregnant. essentially it is one persons
decision
>(tho of course a loving male particpant should have his say).
a murder and
>a rape is one persons violent action against another person.
two or more
>people are involved. its apples and oranges.
there's only one person involved in a pregnancy? hmm, what
exactly is a pregnancy then? cuz i must be misinformed...
apples and oranges are both fruit...abortion and rape/murder are
both acts of violence.
stone crest
>I think the intention in the argument was that if the event
could be
>wholly contained within a woman's body, then the position would
hold
>water.
hehe yeah i know, thanks jett, i understood their point loud and
clear...i don't see how it's relevant though...if anything,
women should not want to have abortions even more so because of
the fact that it -is- taking place in their body...oh
well...what do i know...
stone crest
>
>stone crest <stone_cre...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote in
message
>news:016b274e...@usw-ex0104-025.remarq.com...
>
>> there's only one person involved in a pregnancy?
>
what? so every girl i see walking down the street is pregnant? i
sure hope not...i'm pretty sure that there has to be a human
being growing inside of the woman to be pregnant...i thought
this was a given..
>
> hmm, what
>> exactly is a pregnancy then? cuz i must be misinformed...
>> apples and oranges are both fruit...abortion and rape/murder
are
>> both acts of violence.
>>
>
>rape and murder are violent hateful acts, at the hands of weak
people.
>abortion is a decision or solution, and tho the actual action
of abortion
>may be seen as violent (it certainly isnt gentle), its a woman
doing it to
>her own body.
no, abortion is, for the most part, a quick fix to a mistake or
unwanted child...and if it's a woman doing it to her own body,
let me ask you this...why is the woman not injured after she has
an abortion, since she did 'violence', as you admitted, to
herself? i'll tell you why, it's because the violence was done
unto another human being.
-stone crest
i don't question our existence
i just question our modern needs
lyrics: http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~sgh/
>
>s
stone crest
>
>stone crest <stone_cre...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote in
message
>> JettKarma <myst...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>> >I think the intention in the argument was that if the event
>> could be
>> >wholly contained within a woman's body, then the position
would
>> hold
>> >water.
>>
>> hehe yeah i know, thanks jett, i understood their point loud
and
>> clear...i don't see how it's relevant though...if anything,
>> women should not want to have abortions even more so because
of
>> the fact that it -is- taking place in their body...oh
>> well...what do i know...
>>
>> -stone crest
>>
>
because they
>dont know what its like to feel that. to think you are
pregnant, let alone
>actually be, when you are not ready for it...its not a good
feeling.
>*understatement*.
oh, and i'm sure they feel much better when they don't have to
think about having that baby anymore....woooo what a relief...
yes, i'm sure i have no idea what it would feel like to be in
the situation of having a baby and it being a bad time...but
having an abortion isn't the solution, two wrong don't make a
right as i'm sure you're aware.
-stone crest
i don't question our existence
i just question our modern needs
lyrics: http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~sgh/
>
>s
>
>
stone crest
>
>stone crest <stone_cre...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote in
message
>> >> there's only one person involved in a pregnancy?
>> >
>> >yes. the woman is pregnant all by herself.
>>
>> what? so every girl i see walking down the street is
pregnant? i
>> sure hope not...i'm pretty sure that there has to be a human
>> being growing inside of the woman to be pregnant...i thought
>> this was a given..
>>
>
the
>discussions on the topic break down. you see the fetus as a
human. i see
>the fetus as a fetus.
>
>> >
>> > hmm, what
>> >> exactly is a pregnancy then? cuz i must be misinformed...
>> >> apples and oranges are both fruit...abortion and
rape/murder
>> are
>> >> both acts of violence.
>> >>
>> >
>> >rape and murder are violent hateful acts, at the hands of
weak
>> people.
>> >abortion is a decision or solution, and tho the actual action
>> of abortion
>> >may be seen as violent (it certainly isnt gentle), its a
woman
>> doing it to
>> >her own body.
>>
>> no, abortion is, for the most part, a quick fix to a mistake
or
>> unwanted child...and if it's a woman doing it to her own body,
>> let me ask you this...why is the woman not injured after she
has
>> an abortion, since she did 'violence', as you admitted, to
>> herself? i'll tell you why, it's because the violence was done
>> unto another human being.
>
that for some
>women it might be. but for many others, its holds none of the
simplicity of
>a quick fix. giving away such a thing when its created by
people who love
>each other but in the wrong time is not fun or easy or a
flippant decision.
undoubtedly it's not easy, but that's no excuse for a couple
of 'loving parents' to take away life from their unborn sun or
daughter...if we aren't talking about rape or those other more
rare situations, then the parents were well aware that, having
sex, they could become pregnant...if that doesn't deter them,
then they should accept the responsibility.
>assuming all cases are the same is wearing blinders.
>you think a woman who has an abortion goes out to run
marathons, be them
>physical or emotional? think again. some scars you cant see.
but the scars will never run as deep as the scars forced upon
the unborn...death.
how can you say, with moral confidence, that an act of violence
such as abortion is ok? violence is never justified...
war is wrong...death penalties are wrong...abortion is wrong...i
wonder about the example that people set for the future
generations when they speak out against violence and yet commit
it still.
that's hypocrisy.
-stone crest
i don't question our existence
i just question our modern needs
lyrics: http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~sgh/
>
>s
>
>
>>
>> -stone crest
>>
>> i don't question our existence
>> i just question our modern needs
>> lyrics: http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~sgh/
>>
>> >
>> >s
>> >
>> >
>> >> -stone crest
>> >>
>> >> i don't question our existence
>> >> i just question our modern needs
>> >> lyrics: http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~sgh/
>> >>
>> >>
Melissa Bartman
like any other person on this earth, then abortion could be akin to
murder. A crime perpetrated by one human on another against their will.
It all depends on what you believe, which is why I tend to think that
this argument will never be resolved.
Melissa
oshuns wrote:
>
> stone crest <stone_cre...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote in message
>
> now let me ask you this, are you pro choice when it
> > comes to murder or rape? perhaps you're against these, but do
> > you think other people have a right to murder or rape? so why is
> > abortion any different?
>
> i dont see how one could be pro choice when it comes to murder or rape. i
> dont see the connection to abortion. an abortion is the end of a pregnancy,
> and only one person is pregnant. essentially it is one persons decision
> (tho of course a loving male particpant should have his say). a murder and
> a rape is one persons violent action against another person. two or more
> people are involved. its apples and oranges.
>
> steph
stone crest
>if you keep referring to women who have abortions as tho they
are made of
>steel and could care less i'm not going to be able to continue
with this
>with you. its insensitive.
insensitive? a woman that has an abortion IS lacking compassion,
she IS insensitive...i'm sure they care very much but any woman
that can perform a 'violent' act upon her baby (or herself as
you keep saying) does not have compassion.
>sometimes having an abortion IS the solution, whether you like
it or not.
it's the easiest solution that doesn't affect the woman's future
(let's not get into the emotional scars part again)...it's like
ocean dumping here in nj...big chemical companies want a way to
get rid of their pollution with the easiest and most cost-
efficient method...so they dump it in the water? they -could-
clean it up properly, but they don't...do i think it's a
solution...well yeah, i guess...is it right? NO...just like
abortion.
>its none of our business what
>woman x does with her own body.
i agree 100% with you there...but well, everyone knows that a
woman does not have two heads or two heart beats...so as long as
she doesn't harm that other head or heart beat, she can do
whatever she wants to that body.
stone crest
>
>stone crest <stone_cre...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote in
message
>> >
>> >a human being only grows once born. this is another area
where
>> the
>> >discussions on the topic break down. you see the fetus as a
>> human. i see
>> >the fetus as a fetus.
>> >
>
i see the fetus as a fetus too...a living organism that will
eventually become a human being, that will eventually become the
mother's son or daughter...regardless of if it's a human or a
fetus, it's alive.
>>
>> undoubtedly it's not easy, but that's no excuse for a couple
>> of 'loving parents' to take away life from their unborn sun or
>> daughter...
>
>thats inflammatory vocabulary. people dealing with this
decision mostly
>arent considering the pregnancy as their unborn son or
daughter...its too
>early....its a seed, not a being. and its their decision
anyway, not yours
>or mine.
it's also their decision if they want to murder or rape someone,
not yours or mine...that doesn't make it right though.
>
>>if we aren't talking about rape or those other more
>> rare situations, then the parents were well aware that, having
>> sex, they could become pregnant...if that doesn't deter them,
>> then they should accept the responsibility.
>
>well one would certainly hope that people would be more
careful. but even
>people who do have safe sex become faced with this. nothing is
100%, except
>abstinence. and to some people accepting responsibility means
having an
>abortion.
and those same people think that the death penalty is justified
if the crime is bad enough...it's a shame how violent a society
we are even when we try to stress nonviolence..
>> but the scars will never run as deep as the scars forced upon
>> the unborn...death.
>
>how do you know that? and again, its a difference of
vocabulary. i dont
>see a death in abortion, because to me something thats alive
lives and
>breathes. an early stage fetus in my mind too is hardly the
unborn. its
>the not even close to being human, let alone unborn, in most
cases. and its
>sad, its an ending and a loss of potential. a death of dreams
for the
>mother, a huge loss. but something that never lived cant have
scars.
exactly, it can't have scars, it's beyond scars...it's
death...if you were in a car accident, would you rather choose
to live and have scars, or die? thought so.
and depriving anything of life is wrong...how can you argue that?
>
>> how can you say, with moral confidence, that an act of
violence
>> such as abortion is ok? violence is never justified...
>> war is wrong...death penalties are wrong...abortion is
wrong...i
>> wonder about the example that people set for the future
>> generations when they speak out against violence and yet
commit
>> it still.
>> that's hypocrisy.
>>
>
>war and death penalty and rape and murder is all mankind vs
mankind.
>abortion is a womans choice and decision.
it's stil mankind vs mankind...abortion is a woman against a
baby (or herself, if that suits you better)
its a medical procedure. the
>sound the act itself is a removal, and is thus violent. i
believe in
>abortion as a positive thing to have in existence. you dont.
i am not for
>it, i dont know that id ever be able to have one, and i would
hope it is
>always as a final resort.
what about suicide as a final resort?
not trying to be mean...
-stone crest
i don't question our existence
i just question our modern needs
lyrics: http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~sgh/
>s
>
>> -stone crest
>>
>> i don't question our existence
>> i just question our modern needs
>> lyrics: http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~sgh/
>>
>> >
>> >s
>> >
>> >
>> >>
>> >> -stone crest
>> >>
>> >> i don't question our existence
>> >> i just question our modern needs
>> >> lyrics: http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~sgh/
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >s
stone crest
>thats very arrogant and ridiculously judgemental of you to say
so. i know
>women who have had abortions and they arent anywhere near
lacking compassion
>or being insensitive. you have no idea. any woman who can
commit an act of
>aggression against her baby has a problem, defiinitely. but
thats not what
>abortion is.
then what is an abortion, a spiritually enlightening, caring
experience? and i don't think the people themselves are
insensitive people, just that in this situation, they acted in a
compassion-less manner..
>
>> >sometimes having an abortion IS the solution, whether you
like
>> it or not.
>>
>> it's the easiest solution that doesn't affect the woman's
future
>> (let's not get into the emotional scars part again)...it's
like
>> ocean dumping here in nj...big chemical companies want a way
to
>> get rid of their pollution with the easiest and most cost-
>> efficient method...so they dump it in the water? they -could-
>> clean it up properly, but they don't...do i think it's a
>> solution...well yeah, i guess...is it right? NO...just like
>> abortion.
>
>who are you to say what will and wont affect a womans future?
i meant it won't affect their future in that they don't have to
worry about the baby...which is the whole reason they had the
abortion, no?
>>
>> >its none of our business what
>> >woman x does with her own body.
>>
>> i agree 100% with you there...but well, everyone knows that a
>> woman does not have two heads or two heart beats...so as long
as
>> she doesn't harm that other head or heart beat, she can do
>> whatever she wants to that body.
>>
>> -stone crest
>
>what about before the fetus has a head or a heartbeat? does
your song
>remain the same?
>do you really feel comfortable sitting there telling women what
they can and
>cannot do? who gave you the right?
having an abortion isn't a 'right' or a 'priveledge'...i don't
have the 'right' to murder someone else and i'm not
complaining...if people were moral and did not force violent
acts on their baby (or themselves...*sigh*), then they wouldn't
be complaining about losing this right...
-stone crest
i don't question our existence
i just question our modern needs
lyrics: http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~sgh/
-----------------------------------------------------------
neddam
Matt
Reg Smith wrote:
> you are missing my point , sure I have no right to impose my socalled Religious beliefs on
> anyone , Im not trying to sway anyone , Im a just stating the facts from a Religion
> (Buddhism ) thats closer to modern science than any other , ie photons accelerating
> backwards thru time , the big bang , the ever expanding universe (18,000 miles per second
> in all directions ) , anyway enough science , from this I a only saying that Women who
> abort living souls are wrong for what they do . Is it Karma that makes the baby become
> aborted ?, no , the child is meant to live out its life in the full . Where do you think
> souls come from ? theres no factory in the sky where your God creates them , its all death
> and rebirth . If you think a baby deserved to die without seeing the light of day due to
> Karma then you can say the people whom died at Roskilde deserved it , is that right ?
> the Karma cops get everyone eventually .
> my view is abortion is murder , a baby gets killed at 3 days after being born - thats
> murder right , a baby gets killed at 3 months after being conceived and thats ok is it , I
> think not .
>
> lauriehester wrote:
>
> > Just as you have no right to impose your religious beliefs on others.
> >
> > Laurie
> >
> > Reg Smith wrote:
> >
> > > good call , its fucking wrong fullstop , who gives a fuck what Eddie thinks , hes
> > > just an ignorant tool with no idea about how precious life is . A baby is born due
> > > to Karma which is built up from previous lives , when that life is stopped before its
> > > due then it comes back again , yes we are all subject to rebirth , its part of life ,
> > > but when the mother of the unborn child decides to kill then she is judged and judged
> > > harshly at the time of her death . I suggest Eddie and all you abortion supporting
> > > freaks go and read the Tibetan Book of the Dead and The Tibetan Book of Living and
> > > Dying , then judge for yourself . We as humans are failing to realise that we are
> > > going down hill fast . I would hate to see Eddie and Beth abort their unborn child ,
> > > I bet they couldnt do it , even if they had some excuse they would not do it , sure
> > > hes sayin women have the right to make their own choice , but not with another life ,
> > > they are not God and have no right to play this role ! , I could go on and on about
> > > this but I wont .
> > >
> > > ' I wish I was an Alien at home behind the sun '
> > >
> > > > Weswindy wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > It is sad Eddie Vedder is pro abortion. He seems like a nice man. I listened to
> > > > > a nurse on a radio station describe several abortions she witnessed, and how
> > > > > she kept saying "I am sorry, I am sorry -to the head of the baby as it lay
> > > > > there torn apart." This made me almost cry to realize in the USA this is going
> > > > > on. Also she said many babies are born alive in abortions but are never held
> > > > > til so she held the baby for 45 minutes til it dies. The nurses are told not to
> > > > > hold the baby. The fact Clinton okayed partial birth abortion is wicked to me.
> > > > > This is a cruel procedure that even an animal never goes through. I would think
> > > > > atheists as well as people who beleive in God the Creator would respect human
> > > > > life more than this. It is just so wrong and why cant Eddie see it-he is such
> > > > > a sensitive soul.
> > > >
> > > > i believe he advocates nothing but the ability for people to make their own
> > > > decisions.
neddam
abortionists are women and the majority of men (from what I have heard) are
pro choice.
Matt
Pro Choice
oshuns wrote:
> stone crest <stone_cre...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote in message
> news:016b274e...@usw-ex0104-025.remarq.com...
>
> > there's only one person involved in a pregnancy?
>
> yes. the woman is pregnant all by herself.
>
> hmm, what
> > exactly is a pregnancy then? cuz i must be misinformed...
> > apples and oranges are both fruit...abortion and rape/murder are
> > both acts of violence.
> >
>
> rape and murder are violent hateful acts, at the hands of weak people.
> abortion is a decision or solution, and tho the actual action of abortion
> may be seen as violent (it certainly isnt gentle), its a woman doing it to
> her own body.
>
> s
stone crest
>stone crest wrote:
>
>> >if you keep referring to women who have abortions as tho
they are
>> made of steel and could care >less i'm not going to be able to
>> continue with this with you. its insensitive.
>>
>> insensitive? a woman that has an abortion IS lacking
compassion, she
>> IS insensitive...i'm sure they care very much but any woman
that can
>> perform a 'violent' act upon her baby (or herself as you keep
saying)
>> does not have compassion.
>
a male,
>which means that the worst you'll ever face is a pregnancy
SCARE by
>someone you have been with. I have faced just such a scare,
and believe
>me, it's tough enough on ME...and I'm not the one who's going
to have to
>end up carrying a baby for nine months. I can't even fathom the
>anxiety, stress, and complete hopelessness that a woman would
feel over
>and unwanted pregnancy.
i understand that the pressure is surely something i can't even
imagine...but take this example...suppose someone in your
immediate family (your dad perhaps) was to die
unexpectedly...you'd undoubtedly be in a lot of pain, sadness,
and anger/pressure...what if, along with this pressure, you went
ahead and killed someone that you were having an argument
with...it's obviously wrong to do such a thing, but i would have
to believe that your act was compassion-less, despite the
situation you were going through...and yes, it was a mistake on
your part, but that doesn't resolve the fact...
sorry to put you in the scenario hehe :)...but the point is,
people need to learn to make decisions when dealt pressureful
situations, and i don't think that what you are feeling can
justify your actions...act with intelligence, not emotion.
>
>People make mistakes, Stone. I hope you realize that. People
do make
>mistakes, and while abortion may be the "easy" way out of a
mistake, I
>think that it's often the best one. Take me, for example. If
I got my
>girlfriend pregnant, I could certainly drop out of school, get a
>mediocre job, and care for and raise the child. And if my
girlfriend
>refused to get an abortion, I suppose that's exactly what I
would do,
>because I would never, EVER abandon a kid that was mine.
i hate to break apart this experience, but since you did bring
it up...
you say you would never abandon a kid, but having an abortion
sure seems like a grave abandonment of sorts...perhaps you're
child doesn't have to live without his/her real dad, but now
he/she cannot live at all...
But, I think
>that I have a lot of potential to be more than a minimum-wage
fuck up
>for the rest of my life. I think that, given some hard work
and some
>luck, I can do things with my life to help other people out. I
can be
>financially secure and have a kid on my own terms, and make
sure that
>the kid gets great opportunities in life. If I was forced to
pay for a
>mistake for the rest of my life, the overall damage to myself,
my
>family, and society as a whole would be FAR greater than if I
took the,
>as you call it, "easy" way out.
you don't want me to comment on this, i'm trying hard not to
hurt feelings or whatever, cuz i'm sure the topic is touchy for
you...
>
>And as for your issue of morality...let's face it. Morals are
>subjective. "Thou Shalt Not Kill" is certainly a rule, set in
stone
>according to the Bible. But what about war? What about
>self-defense??? Morality is situational, Stone. I don't think
that a
>girl who uses abortion as her method of birth control is doing
a good
>thing, and the girl ought to get her tubes tied. But if a
responsible
>couple messes up, or if someone is raped, or if someone's sick-
ass
>father fucks her, or if the mother is placed in a serious health
>risk....than perhaps the "easy" way out is the best option.
Morality
>aside, because morals are FAR too subjective to be the final
word on an
>issue like this.
i don't see how the statement 'violence is immoral' can be
argued...i believe very strongly in existentialism, and it
teaches to perform an act based on the act itself and NOT on the
repercussions...thus, the act of aborting a child is violent and
therefore wrong...the situation, albeit a tough one, has better
solutions.
>
>If you don't agree with abortions, than I suggest that YOU
never get
>one. But, as a male, you will never face that decision.
neither will my wife.
-stone crest
i don't question our existence
i just question our modern needs
lyrics: http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~sgh/
>
>
>--
>Rai
>
>"I never end my messages with a damn quote."
>
>
>
>
-----------------------------------------------------------
stone crest
>
>
>stone crest <stone_cre...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote in
message
>> ...if we aren't talking about rape or those other more
>> rare situations, then the parents were well aware that, having
>> sex, they could become pregnant...if that doesn't deter them,
>> then they should accept the responsibility.
>>
>
before and
>you never answer me.(i'm guessing you've killfiled me and i'm
just talking
>to myself right now)
nono, i don't ignore anyone :)...i use remarq to get to ampj
though and it can be inconsistent at times...plus it's a pain to
read every thread and sometimes i forget which ones i posted in..
>My question is do you think that two people should not
>engage in sexual intercourse if they are not willing to become
parents?
well, yes actually...i mean, we are alive for 70 years on
average, do we really need to be having sex for 30 of them? come
on...i'm sure sex is a wonderful beautiful thing, but i have no
problem with waiting until i'm ready and hopefully my wife will
feel the same way..
>throughout these debates, it appears as if you feel that
pregnancy is a
>punishment for irresponsible whores, but what about the people
who who are
>in a loving commited relationship who do not want to have
children and who
>know that they would abort if a pregnancy occured?
whoa, i NEVER said pregnancy is a punishment...and those people
that have sex with the idea that if they get pregnant, they're
going to abort...i think that's very irresponsible on their part.
do you think they should
>be denied a sexual relationship?
denied? no...do i think they should be having one? no again.
i don't even want to argue whatever your
>answer may be, i know we'll never agree, i'm just curious as to
how you feel
>about that.
well now you know...could i possibly hear your opinions on this
matter? i won't argue either, i promise... :)
-stone crest
i don't question our existence
i just question our modern needs
lyrics: http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~sgh/
>
>Melissa
stone crest
>
>"stone crest" <stone_cre...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote
in message > >
>> of 'loving parents' to take away life from their unborn sun or
>> rare situations, then the parents were well aware that, having
>> sex, they could become pregnant...if that doesn't deter them,
>> then they should accept the responsibility.
>>
>
>
and put her
>in the same catagory as a murderer or a rapist, I wonder what
you would do
>if you were dealing with an unwanted pregnancy.
i will never have to deal with an unwanted pregnancy and neither
should the majority of people..
What if you were in your
>late teens/early twenties and had a girlfriend in the same age
bracket.
>You're both in high school or college with plans of making
something of your
>lives. You can practice safe sex all you want, but every now
and then
>accidents happen. Condoms break, pills are forgotten for a day
or two, etc.
>Would you want to give up your life and have your girlfriend
give up hers
>because of an accident? Would you want the government or other
people on
>the outside preaching to you about what decision to make? What
if this
>happened to a girl and as soon as the guy found out he bailed
and she was
>left completely alone...should her entire life be turned upside
down because
>of a simple accident? Granted, there are women out there who
use abortion
>as their method of birth control--I totally disagree with this,
but that is
>part of the cost of having freedom. Unfortunately, there will
always be a
>few who abuse it.
a few who abuse it? over the last 20 (about 20, i forgot the
exact number) years, there have been over 35 million
abortions...and those are only -known- abortions...how many of
these do you think were done by people who abused their freedom?
my answer would be all of them, only because i feel that having
an abortion = abusing a freedom.
i'm gonna stop with this thread soon, my position's known and
most people disagree with it, that's fine...i'm not trying to
convert the world.
i'm only trying to stop the violence.
-stone crest
i don't question our existence
i just question our modern needs
lyrics: http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~sgh/
>
>Laura
Reg Smith
Reg Smith
you are missing my point , sure I have no right to impose my socalled Religious beliefs on
anyone , Im not trying to sway anyone , Im a just stating the facts from a Religion
(Buddhism ) thats closer to modern science than any other , ie photons accelerating
backwards thru time , the big bang , the ever expanding universe (18,000 miles per second
in all directions ) , anyway enough science , from this I a only saying that Women who
abort living souls are wrong for what they do . Is it Karma that makes the baby become
aborted ?, no , the child is meant to live out its life in the full . Where do you think
souls come from ? theres no factory in the sky where your God creates them , its all death
and rebirth . If you think a baby deserved to die without seeing the light of day due to
Karma then you can say the people whom died at Roskilde deserved it , is that right ?
the Karma cops get everyone eventually .
my view is abortion is murder , a baby gets killed at 3 days after being born - thats
murder right , a baby gets killed at 3 months after being conceived and thats ok is it , I
think not .
lauriehester wrote:
> Just as you have no right to impose your religious beliefs on others.
>
> Laurie
>
> Reg Smith wrote:
>
Reg Smith
PS , dont forget Karma is the law of cause and effect - remember Albert Einsteins equation -
for every force theres an equal and opposite reaction , this is Karma and it applies right down
to how we think , every thought we make creates an outcome for an event whether it be turn the
kettle on or choose to abort an unborn child , you may get scalded by the hot water from the
kettle - thats a peice of Karma catching up with you , you suffer the pain and scarring ,
everyone feels a different amount of pain , some women can abort a child and feel no sorrow -
or less sorrow than others would - this is also Karma . Karma is not religion rather part of
life that governs us in our actions . Its a long and heady topic , just read a book on Tibet
Buddhism - I know this may be a ' religion ' but its closer to unlocking life than all the
others are , and no Im not a buddhist I just have an interest in their work as they are
beautiful loving compassionate people with a great deal of knowledge about life , death and
rebirth , for they have mastered the art of living , dying and rebirth , in fact they purposely
reincarnate back into this realm - the realm of desire - to eventually help all humans become
enlightened , then we may truly accquire the pure bliss of life . Thanks for reading if you did
and God Bless you all .
oshuns
stone crest <stone_cre...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote in message
> "oshuns" <osh...@info-internet.net> wrote:
> >
> >Weswindy <wesw...@aol.com> wrote in message
> >news:20000731020233...@ng-fc1.aol.com...
> >> It is sad Eddie Vedder is pro abortion.
> >
> CHOICE (oy
> >vay ive had to break out the caps) is NOT the same thing as
> being PRO
> >ABORTION. you probably couldnt fill a small room with people
> who are pro
> >abortion. until you learn that there is a
> difference....well....you should
> >just allow yourself to see the difference.
>
> but being pro choice says that other people can do as they
> please, yes?
being pro choice to me means supporting a woman's right to decide what she
wants to do with her pregnancy. to each their own, and may the force be
with her.
now let me ask you this, are you pro choice when it
> comes to murder or rape? perhaps you're against these, but do
> you think other people have a right to murder or rape? so why is
> abortion any different?
i dont see how one could be pro choice when it comes to murder or rape. i
dont see the connection to abortion. an abortion is the end of a pregnancy,
and only one person is pregnant. essentially it is one persons decision
(tho of course a loving male particpant should have his say). a murder and
a rape is one persons violent action against another person. two or more
people are involved. its apples and oranges.
steph
> if i was pro choice for something like rape, then i think you
> would all, without a doubt, say that i'm pro-rape, cuz my
> philosophy would allow rapes rather than prevent them...
> just wanted to add this.
>
> -stone crest
>
> i don't question our existence
> i just question our modern needs
> lyrics: http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~sgh/
>
> >
> >s
oshuns
stone crest <stone_cre...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote in message
> there's only one person involved in a pregnancy?
yes. the woman is pregnant all by herself.
hmm, what
> exactly is a pregnancy then? cuz i must be misinformed...
> apples and oranges are both fruit...abortion and rape/murder are
> both acts of violence.
>
rape and murder are violent hateful acts, at the hands of weak people.
abortion is a decision or solution, and tho the actual action of abortion
may be seen as violent (it certainly isnt gentle), its a woman doing it to
her own body.
s
> -stone crest
>
> i don't question our existence
> i just question our modern needs
> lyrics: http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~sgh/
>
>
oshuns
stone crest <stone_cre...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote in message
> JettKarma <myst...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> >I think the intention in the argument was that if the event
> could be
> >wholly contained within a woman's body, then the position would
> hold
> >water.
>
> hehe yeah i know, thanks jett, i understood their point loud and
> clear...i don't see how it's relevant though...if anything,
> women should not want to have abortions even more so because of
> the fact that it -is- taking place in their body...oh
> well...what do i know...
>
> -stone crest
>
i think its hard to understand sometimes for some guys just because they
dont know what its like to feel that. to think you are pregnant, let alone
actually be, when you are not ready for it...its not a good feeling.
*understatement*.
s
oshuns
stone crest <stone_cre...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote in message
> >> there's only one person involved in a pregnancy?
> >
> >yes. the woman is pregnant all by herself.
>
> sure hope not...i'm pretty sure that there has to be a human
> being growing inside of the woman to be pregnant...i thought
> this was a given..
>
a human being only grows once born. this is another area where the
discussions on the topic break down. you see the fetus as a human. i see
the fetus as a fetus.
> >
> > hmm, what
> >> exactly is a pregnancy then? cuz i must be misinformed...
> >> apples and oranges are both fruit...abortion and rape/murder
> are
> >> both acts of violence.
> >>
> >
> >rape and murder are violent hateful acts, at the hands of weak
> people.
> >abortion is a decision or solution, and tho the actual action
> of abortion
> >may be seen as violent (it certainly isnt gentle), its a woman
> doing it to
> >her own body.
>
> no, abortion is, for the most part, a quick fix to a mistake or
> unwanted child...and if it's a woman doing it to her own body,
> let me ask you this...why is the woman not injured after she has
> an abortion, since she did 'violence', as you admitted, to
> herself? i'll tell you why, it's because the violence was done
> unto another human being.
saying its a 'quick fix' is being judgemental, tho i dont deny that for some
women it might be. but for many others, its holds none of the simplicity of
a quick fix. giving away such a thing when its created by people who love
each other but in the wrong time is not fun or easy or a flippant decision.
assuming all cases are the same is wearing blinders.
you think a woman who has an abortion goes out to run marathons, be them
physical or emotional? think again. some scars you cant see.
s
>
> -stone crest
>
> i don't question our existence
> i just question our modern needs
> lyrics: http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~sgh/
>
> >
> >s
> >
> >
> >> -stone crest
oshuns
stone crest <stone_cre...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote in message
> "oshuns" <osh...@info-internet.net> wrote:
> >
>
> oh, and i'm sure they feel much better when they don't have to
> think about having that baby anymore....woooo what a relief...
> yes, i'm sure i have no idea what it would feel like to be in
> the situation of having a baby and it being a bad time...but
> having an abortion isn't the solution, two wrong don't make a
> right as i'm sure you're aware.
>
if you keep referring to women who have abortions as tho they are made of
steel and could care less i'm not going to be able to continue with this
with you. its insensitive.
sometimes having an abortion IS the solution, whether you like it or not.
its up to the pregnant woman. some wrongs and rights arent written in
stone. its an unfortunate choice, its an ending, and most endings are sad.
but it should remain a choice nonetheless. its none of our business what
woman x does with her own body.
s
> -stone crest
>
> i don't question our existence
> i just question our modern needs
> lyrics: http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~sgh/
>
> >
> >s
> >
> >
oshuns
stone crest <stone_cre...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote in message
> >
> >a human being only grows once born. this is another area where
> the
> >discussions on the topic break down. you see the fetus as a
> human. i see
> >the fetus as a fetus.
> >
no reply to this?
> >women it might be. but for many others, its holds none of the
> simplicity of
> >a quick fix. giving away such a thing when its created by
> people who love
> >each other but in the wrong time is not fun or easy or a
> flippant decision.
>
> undoubtedly it's not easy, but that's no excuse for a couple
> of 'loving parents' to take away life from their unborn sun or
> daughter...
thats inflammatory vocabulary. people dealing with this decision mostly
arent considering the pregnancy as their unborn son or daughter...its too
early....its a seed, not a being. and its their decision anyway, not yours
or mine.
>if we aren't talking about rape or those other more
> rare situations, then the parents were well aware that, having
> sex, they could become pregnant...if that doesn't deter them,
> then they should accept the responsibility.
well one would certainly hope that people would be more careful. but even
people who do have safe sex become faced with this. nothing is 100%, except
abstinence. and to some people accepting responsibility means having an
abortion.
>
> >assuming all cases are the same is wearing blinders.
> >you think a woman who has an abortion goes out to run
> marathons, be them
> >physical or emotional? think again. some scars you cant see.
>
> but the scars will never run as deep as the scars forced upon
> the unborn...death.
how do you know that? and again, its a difference of vocabulary. i dont
see a death in abortion, because to me something thats alive lives and
breathes. an early stage fetus in my mind too is hardly the unborn. its
the not even close to being human, let alone unborn, in most cases. and its
sad, its an ending and a loss of potential. a death of dreams for the
mother, a huge loss. but something that never lived cant have scars.
> how can you say, with moral confidence, that an act of violence
> such as abortion is ok? violence is never justified...
> war is wrong...death penalties are wrong...abortion is wrong...i
> wonder about the example that people set for the future
> generations when they speak out against violence and yet commit
> it still.
> that's hypocrisy.
>
war and death penalty and rape and murder is all mankind vs mankind.
abortion is a womans choice and decision. its a medical procedure. the
sound the act itself is a removal, and is thus violent. i believe in
abortion as a positive thing to have in existence. you dont. i am not for
it, i dont know that id ever be able to have one, and i would hope it is
always as a final resort.
s
> -stone crest
>
> i don't question our existence
> i just question our modern needs
> lyrics: http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~sgh/
>
> >
> >s
> >
> >
> >>
> >> -stone crest
> >>
> >> i don't question our existence
> >> i just question our modern needs
> >> lyrics: http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~sgh/
> >>
> >> >
> >> >s
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >> -stone crest
> >> >>
> >> >> i don't question our existence
> >> >> i just question our modern needs
> >> >> lyrics: http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~sgh/
> >> >>
> >> >>
oshuns
stone crest <stone_cre...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote in message
> "oshuns" <osh...@info-internet.net> wrote:
> >if you keep referring to women who have abortions as tho they
> are made of
> >steel and could care less i'm not going to be able to continue
> with this
> >with you. its insensitive.
>
> she IS insensitive...i'm sure they care very much but any woman
> that can perform a 'violent' act upon her baby (or herself as
> you keep saying) does not have compassion.
>
thats very arrogant and ridiculously judgemental of you to say so. i know
women who have had abortions and they arent anywhere near lacking compassion
or being insensitive. you have no idea. any woman who can commit an act of
aggression against her baby has a problem, defiinitely. but thats not what
abortion is.
> >sometimes having an abortion IS the solution, whether you like
> it or not.
>
> it's the easiest solution that doesn't affect the woman's future
> (let's not get into the emotional scars part again)...it's like
> ocean dumping here in nj...big chemical companies want a way to
> get rid of their pollution with the easiest and most cost-
> efficient method...so they dump it in the water? they -could-
> clean it up properly, but they don't...do i think it's a
> solution...well yeah, i guess...is it right? NO...just like
> abortion.
who are you to say what will and wont affect a womans future? like i said,
i know women who have been through it. if you think they are unchanged as a
result, you are wrong. it has affected them, probably more than i will ever
know.
>
> >its none of our business what
> >woman x does with her own body.
>
> i agree 100% with you there...but well, everyone knows that a
> woman does not have two heads or two heart beats...so as long as
> she doesn't harm that other head or heart beat, she can do
> whatever she wants to that body.
>
> -stone crest
what about before the fetus has a head or a heartbeat? does your song
remain the same?
do you really feel comfortable sitting there telling women what they can and
cannot do? who gave you the right?
s
Penni
oshuns wrote in message ...
>
>a human being only grows once born.
But this isn't true. A newly conceived child grows in his/her mother's womb
for nine months before birth.
>this is another area where the
>discussions on the topic break down. you see the fetus as a human. i see
>the fetus as a fetus.
Why is this? Do you truly believe that a baby suddenly "sparks to life" the
instant he/she comes in contact with the outside world? That makes no sense
to me.
Birth is simply a matter of location. What really happens at birth? Before
birth, the baby lives inside his/her mother. After birth, the baby lives
outside the mother's womb. I don't see how this change of residence
transforms the baby from a meaningless lump of matter into a living,
significant human being.
>saying its a 'quick fix' is being judgemental, tho i dont deny that for
some
>women it might be. but for many others, its holds none of the simplicity
of
>a quick fix. giving away such a thing when its created by people who love
>each other but in the wrong time is not fun or easy or a flippant decision.
"giving away"? It's not a simple matter of giving away a child, it's
killing a child.
Murder is murder regardless of whether we call it "murder" or "choice."
I would like to know, in your opinion, why is adoption not always a better
alternative than abortion?
>s
-rick
oshuns
stone crest <stone_cre...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote in message
> >> >a human being only grows once born. this is another area
> where
> >> the
> >> >discussions on the topic break down. you see the fetus as a
> >> human. i see
> >> >the fetus as a fetus.
> >> >
> >
> >no reply to this?
>
> i see the fetus as a fetus too...a living organism that will
> eventually become a human being, that will eventually become the
> mother's son or daughter...regardless of if it's a human or a
> fetus, it's alive.
>
>
> >>
> >> undoubtedly it's not easy, but that's no excuse for a couple
> >> of 'loving parents' to take away life from their unborn sun or
> >> daughter...
> >
> >thats inflammatory vocabulary. people dealing with this
> decision mostly
> >arent considering the pregnancy as their unborn son or
> daughter...its too
> >early....its a seed, not a being. and its their decision
> anyway, not yours
> >or mine.
>
> it's also their decision if they want to murder or rape someone,
> not yours or mine...that doesn't make it right though.
>
one night and im already getting exhausted. i already explained the
difference. apples and oranges i called it. i'm not going to broken record
this argument. its their body, its their life, its their decision.
> >
> >>if we aren't talking about rape or those other more
> >> rare situations, then the parents were well aware that, having
> >> sex, they could become pregnant...if that doesn't deter them,
> >> then they should accept the responsibility.
> >
> >well one would certainly hope that people would be more
> careful. but even
> >people who do have safe sex become faced with this. nothing is
> 100%, except
> >abstinence. and to some people accepting responsibility means
> having an
> >abortion.
>
> and those same people think that the death penalty is justified
> if the crime is bad enough...it's a shame how violent a society
> we are even when we try to stress nonviolence..
>
so you think all pro choice people are pro death penalty? preposterous.
>> but the scars will never run as deep as the scars forced upon
> >> the unborn...death.
> >
> >how do you know that? and again, its a difference of
> vocabulary. i dont
> >see a death in abortion, because to me something thats alive
> lives and
> >breathes. an early stage fetus in my mind too is hardly the
> unborn. its
> >the not even close to being human, let alone unborn, in most
> cases. and its
> >sad, its an ending and a loss of potential. a death of dreams
> for the
> >mother, a huge loss. but something that never lived cant have
> scars.
>
> exactly, it can't have scars, it's beyond scars...it's
> death...if you were in a car accident, would you rather choose
> to live and have scars, or die? thought so.
> and depriving anything of life is wrong...how can you argue that?
>
as a generally pro choice anti death penalty pro kevorkian vegetarian who
hates killing even ants and tiny flying things....i'm not one to argue for
death. but i argue for quality of life, for the living. the woman was
there first. its her body its her life its her choice. thats how i see it.
its sad that its an ending, and its a death of sorts...a death of a
potential life, not an actual one.
> >
> >> how can you say, with moral confidence, that an act of
> violence
> >> such as abortion is ok? violence is never justified...
> >> war is wrong...death penalties are wrong...abortion is
> wrong...i
> >> wonder about the example that people set for the future
> >> generations when they speak out against violence and yet
> commit
> >> it still.
> >> that's hypocrisy.
> >>
> >
> >war and death penalty and rape and murder is all mankind vs
> mankind.
> >abortion is a womans choice and decision.
>
> it's stil mankind vs mankind...abortion is a woman against a
> baby (or herself, if that suits you better)
>
abortion is a woman in crisis. and its up to her what she wants to do. its
she who is affected, its she who knows best.
> its a medical procedure. the
> >sound the act itself is a removal, and is thus violent. i
> believe in
> >abortion as a positive thing to have in existence. you dont.
> i am not for
> >it, i dont know that id ever be able to have one, and i would
> hope it is
> >always as a final resort.
>
> what about suicide as a final resort?
> not trying to be mean...
in some cases i think its horrific and selfish (and in some cases abortion
can be that way too). in other cases i hope that its the release a person
really wanted and that it was the right thing for them, and i try to be
sympa/empathetic to them. its case sensitive.
oshuns
Penni <p...@ptd.net> wrote in message
news:5Krh5.12438$Mt.1...@nnrp1.ptd.net...
> just a few thoughts...
>
>
> oshuns wrote in message ...
> >
>
womb
> for nine months before birth.
>
i'm sorry. a child isnt whats there at conception.
> >this is another area where the
> >discussions on the topic break down. you see the fetus as a human. i
see
> >the fetus as a fetus.
>
>
> Why is this? Do you truly believe that a baby suddenly "sparks to life"
the
> instant he/she comes in contact with the outside world? That makes no
sense
> to me.
>
in the stages where most women consider abortion (immediately after finding
out they are pregnant) that is not a baby. not even close.
> Birth is simply a matter of location. What really happens at birth?
Before
> birth, the baby lives inside his/her mother. After birth, the baby lives
> outside the mother's womb. I don't see how this change of residence
> transforms the baby from a meaningless lump of matter into a living,
> significant human being.
>
> >saying its a 'quick fix' is being judgemental, tho i dont deny that for
> some
> >women it might be. but for many others, its holds none of the simplicity
> of
> >a quick fix. giving away such a thing when its created by people who
love
> >each other but in the wrong time is not fun or easy or a flippant
decision.
>
> "giving away"? It's not a simple matter of giving away a child, it's
> killing a child.
> Murder is murder regardless of whether we call it "murder" or "choice."
>
killing a child is not abortion.
> I would like to know, in your opinion, why is adoption not always a better
> alternative than abortion?
>
when did i say it wasnt?
s
> >s
>
> -rick
>
>
>
Penni
oshuns wrote in message ...
>
>Penni <p...@ptd.net> wrote in message
>news:5Krh5.12438$Mt.1...@nnrp1.ptd.net...
>> just a few thoughts...
>>
>>
>> oshuns wrote in message ...
>> >
>> >a human being only grows once born.
>>
>> But this isn't true. A newly conceived child grows in his/her mother's
>womb
>> for nine months before birth.
>>
>
>i'm sorry. a child isnt whats there at conception.
So when exactly does a "fetus" become a child?
>> >this is another area where the
>> >discussions on the topic break down. you see the fetus as a human. i
>see
>> >the fetus as a fetus.
>>
>>
>> Why is this? Do you truly believe that a baby suddenly "sparks to life"
>the
>> instant he/she comes in contact with the outside world? That makes no
>sense
>> to me.
>in the stages where most women consider abortion (immediately after finding
>out they are pregnant) that is not a baby. not even close.
>> Birth is simply a matter of location. What really happens at birth?
>Before
>> birth, the baby lives inside his/her mother. After birth, the baby lives
>> outside the mother's womb. I don't see how this change of residence
>> transforms the baby from a meaningless lump of matter into a living,
>> significant human being.
no reply to this?
>> >saying its a 'quick fix' is being judgemental, tho i dont deny that for
>> some
>> >women it might be. but for many others, its holds none of the
simplicity
>> of
>> >a quick fix. giving away such a thing when its created by people who
>love
>> >each other but in the wrong time is not fun or easy or a flippant
>decision.
>>
>> "giving away"? It's not a simple matter of giving away a child, it's
>> killing a child.
>> Murder is murder regardless of whether we call it "murder" or "choice."
>killing a child is not abortion.
I think that you would agree that abortion is closer to killing a child
than it is to giving a child away.
>> I would like to know, in your opinion, why is adoption not always a
better
>> alternative than abortion?
>when did i say it wasnt?
Well then how can you condone abortion under any circumstances? Why
shouldn't all women with unwanted pregnancies simply give the child to
parents who want him/her?
Nine months of inconvenience for a woman is a small price to pay for a human
life.
just my thoughts..
-rick
>s
>
>
>> >s
>>
>> -rick
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Rai
> Is it Karma that makes the baby become aborted ?, no , the child is meant to live out its
> life in the full .
I'm sorry....I was just floating through, and happened to notice this particular line.
As a kid that has grown up learning about the Karma Theory of human existance, and someone who
has read quite a bit about said topic, I figure I know a thing or two about the theory.
You're wrong. If you truly believed in Karma (which, incidentally, I do...strongly), and if
you really knew anything about the theory (which, incidentally, I do...a lot), you would know
that there is nothing in this universe that happens if it is "not supposed to". The theory of
Karma is meant to explain each and every event in this world, including the death of the
seemingly innocent. If you honestly believe that an unborn fetus has a soul, than, in
accordance with the Karma Theory, you would also believe that, if said fetus were to be
aborted, that it was the fetus' destiny to BE aborted. Unfortunately, YOU are trying to twist
the Karma Theory in order to support your own beliefs, which simply doesn't work. If you want
to believe in what you seem to, please refrain from citing the Karma Theory. Because you are
citing it improperly. In strict accordance with the principle of Karma, human beings have NO
control over destiny. If a fetus is destined to be aborted, than it will be aborted. The only
thing that we, as humans, can do in the face of destiny is react to the best of our morals. By
living with a certain morality, one accumulates GOOD Karma, instead of BAD Karma.
And, on a slightly related tangent...the Karma Theory is just that: a THEORY. I happen to
subscribe to it, but that doesn't mean that I could ever argue a point based solely on that
theory. There is no empirical evidence to show the path of a soul after death, or even the
existance of a soul at all. SO, for all intents and purposes, the Karma Theory is simply a
road map that I use in MY life. I would be fecetious, and down right pretentious, to assume
that MY beliefs should pertain to others, which is exactly what you have tried to do.
Again, if you want to believe in your pseudo-Karma, please be sure to cite it as your own
CONCEPTION of a documented theory. Because, as it stands, your contention that a baby who is
aborted is NOT aborted due to Karma is a sore misrepresentation of the Karma Theory.
Thank you, that is all.
Rai
> >if you keep referring to women who have abortions as tho they are
> made of steel and could care >less i'm not going to be able to
> continue with this with you. its insensitive.
>
> insensitive? a woman that has an abortion IS lacking compassion, she
> IS insensitive...i'm sure they care very much but any woman that can
> perform a 'violent' act upon her baby (or herself as you keep saying)
> does not have compassion.
That's really a harsh thing to say, Stone. I'm assuming you're a male,
which means that the worst you'll ever face is a pregnancy SCARE by
someone you have been with. I have faced just such a scare, and believe
me, it's tough enough on ME...and I'm not the one who's going to have to
end up carrying a baby for nine months. I can't even fathom the
anxiety, stress, and complete hopelessness that a woman would feel over
and unwanted pregnancy.
People make mistakes, Stone. I hope you realize that. People do make
mistakes, and while abortion may be the "easy" way out of a mistake, I
think that it's often the best one. Take me, for example. If I got my
girlfriend pregnant, I could certainly drop out of school, get a
mediocre job, and care for and raise the child. And if my girlfriend
refused to get an abortion, I suppose that's exactly what I would do,
because I would never, EVER abandon a kid that was mine. But, I think
that I have a lot of potential to be more than a minimum-wage fuck up
for the rest of my life. I think that, given some hard work and some
luck, I can do things with my life to help other people out. I can be
financially secure and have a kid on my own terms, and make sure that
the kid gets great opportunities in life. If I was forced to pay for a
mistake for the rest of my life, the overall damage to myself, my
family, and society as a whole would be FAR greater than if I took the,
as you call it, "easy" way out.
And as for your issue of morality...let's face it. Morals are
subjective. "Thou Shalt Not Kill" is certainly a rule, set in stone
according to the Bible. But what about war? What about
self-defense??? Morality is situational, Stone. I don't think that a
girl who uses abortion as her method of birth control is doing a good
thing, and the girl ought to get her tubes tied. But if a responsible
couple messes up, or if someone is raped, or if someone's sick-ass
father fucks her, or if the mother is placed in a serious health
risk....than perhaps the "easy" way out is the best option. Morality
aside, because morals are FAR too subjective to be the final word on an
issue like this.
If you don't agree with abortions, than I suggest that YOU never get
one. But, as a male, you will never face that decision.
Rai
> Whenever you hear something like this, ask yourself...is this story designed to
> get me to feel or to think? If it aims to make you want to cry, makes your heart
> swell with joy, makes you want to lynch somebody, etc., I always suppose it's
> propaganda.
I really, REALLY wanted to stay away from this discussion, but I couldn't resist...I
got sucked in. But I really needed to comment on the nurse's stories that this guy
cited. I've had quite a bit of hospital experience, and have spoken to a lot of
people about this very issue.
Many of the physicians (trained professionals, mind you) have vastly differing
opinions about the nature of "life", and I'm not going to get into any sort of
philosophical discussion about whether or not a fetus is necessarily "alive", or if
it is simply a parasitic organism (I know that sounds harsh, but those are not my
words, they are the words of a physician I have talked to). There was one doctor in
particular, an Ob/Gyn who personally refused to perform abortions.
He said that his personal belief is that a doctor's role is to preserve life. He
said that, based on his own personal definition of life, he found it impossible to
perform abortions. However, he also said that there IS a flip-side to this issue.
He pointed out that, as controversial as it is, Dr. Kevorkian's techniques were
often in the best interest of the patient and the families. He said that, though he
didn't personally agree with Dr. Kevorkian, he could see that Kevorkian's philosophy
had merit. The same logic, than, can be extended to abortion. His basic thesis was
that he couldn't personally perform a procedure that he did not believe in, but he
also did not feel that it was his right, or business, to legistlate his own personal
morality onto other physicians or onto patients. He also cited such cases as
conjoined twins, where one baby was essentially "sacrificed". That, also, is
"killing" a life, but that, in medicine, there are often no clear distinctions
between right and wrong. So his eventual standpoint was that his PERSONAL sense of
right and wrong would govern his practice, and he would willingly allow other to use
their PERSONAL sense of right and wrong govern their practices.
There's one thing that he said that really struck a chord with me....
"If someone were to honestly believe that their ideology is a ubiquitous template
for human behavior, than I would hope that that person would go into politics, where
their beliefs can be voted on. I would hope that that person would stay away from
medicine, where the lines between right and wrong are blurred everytime a patient
walks through the door."
Lamia
"Penni" <p...@ptd.net> wrote:
> Well then how can you condone abortion under any circumstances? Why
> shouldn't all women with unwanted pregnancies simply give the child to
> parents who want him/her?
There is little demand for mixed race babies, or babies that are
handicapped or ill. Since many unwanted pregnancies are unwanted
because the woman is sick or poor herself, many of the babies that
result from unwanted pregnancies suffer from birth defects and other
health problems.
> Nine months of inconvenience for a woman is a small price to pay for
a human
> life.
What if the woman's life is in danger if she carried the pregnancy to
term? Is a woman's life a small price to pay for a fetus's?
--
-Lamia
*Amazon Academy*
http://www.geocities.com/yellowlamia
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Lamia
Rai <mra...@spam.umich.edu> wrote:
> People make mistakes, Stone. I hope you realize that. People do make
> mistakes, and while abortion may be the "easy" way out of a mistake, I
> think that it's often the best one. Take me, for example. If I got
my
> girlfriend pregnant, I could certainly drop out of school, get a
> mediocre job, and care for and raise the child. And if my girlfriend
> refused to get an abortion, I suppose that's exactly what I would do,
> because I would never, EVER abandon a kid that was mine. But, I think
> that I have a lot of potential to be more than a minimum-wage fuck up
> for the rest of my life. I think that, given some hard work and some
> luck, I can do things with my life to help other people out. I can be
> financially secure and have a kid on my own terms, and make sure that
> the kid gets great opportunities in life. If I was forced to pay for
a
> mistake for the rest of my life, the overall damage to myself, my
> family, and society as a whole would be FAR greater than if I took
the,
> as you call it, "easy" way out.
I'm with Rai on this one. In the unlikely event that I become prenant
in the near future, I have to say that I would get an abortion. I have
some medical problems which make it questionable whether I could
survive a pregnancy. Even if the baby and I both came out of the
delivery room alive, it seems unlikely that the baby would be healthy.
The odds of finding a good adoptive family for it would be slim. It's
possible that it would be in such bad shape that it would have to be
institutionalized. If I decided to try to raise it myself I would have
to give up my scholarship, drop out of school, and get whatever job I
could find. I couldn't rely on my family to support us because my
mother has no income right now (she's working on her Ph.D.
dissertation) and the only money she would be able to give me would be
that set aside to send my sisters to college. So what could I do? It
wouldn't be an easy decision to make, but I don't see how I could do
anything but have an abortion. I wouldn't be happy about it, but life
is full of tough choices and we do what we have to do.
Vyvyn1
really are... for such a well known band, they have an incredibly pure fanbase
as far as intelligence goes.
Thank you all for being who you are. Makes me that much happier to adore this
band.
chaim
Laura
"stone crest" <stone_cre...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote in message > >
> of 'loving parents' to take away life from their unborn sun or
> rare situations, then the parents were well aware that, having
> sex, they could become pregnant...if that doesn't deter them,
> then they should accept the responsibility.
>
You are so quick to judge a woman who wants to have an abortion and put her
in the same catagory as a murderer or a rapist, I wonder what you would do
if you were dealing with an unwanted pregnancy. What if you were in your
late teens/early twenties and had a girlfriend in the same age bracket.
You're both in high school or college with plans of making something of your
lives. You can practice safe sex all you want, but every now and then
accidents happen. Condoms break, pills are forgotten for a day or two, etc.
Would you want to give up your life and have your girlfriend give up hers
because of an accident? Would you want the government or other people on
the outside preaching to you about what decision to make? What if this
happened to a girl and as soon as the guy found out he bailed and she was
left completely alone...should her entire life be turned upside down because
of a simple accident? Granted, there are women out there who use abortion
as their method of birth control--I totally disagree with this, but that is
part of the cost of having freedom. Unfortunately, there will always be a
few who abuse it.
Laura
oshuns
stone crest <stone_cre...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote in message
> "oshuns" <osh...@info-internet.net> wrote:
>
> >thats very arrogant and ridiculously judgemental of you to say
> so. i know
> >women who have had abortions and they arent anywhere near
> lacking compassion
> >or being insensitive. you have no idea. any woman who can
> commit an act of
> >aggression against her baby has a problem, defiinitely. but
> thats not what
> >abortion is.
>
> experience?
ive never had one so i wouldnt be so presumptuous as to think i know. but
people i know have, and for them it was nothing but sadness and regret. not
regretting doing it, but regretting that they had to.
>and i don't think the people themselves are
> insensitive people, just that in this situation, they acted in a
> compassion-less manner..
>
i think presuming every woman who has an abortion is compassionless is
pretty compassionless in itself.
s
>
oshuns
and i just want to state that i am not trying to twist anyone to my way of
viewing the abortion issue. i am just presenting the world as i view it
under this topic.
s
Rai <mra...@spam.umich.edu> wrote in message
news:39864C39...@spam.umich.edu...
oshuns
>
> oshuns wrote in message ...
> >
> >Penni <p...@ptd.net> wrote in message
> >news:5Krh5.12438$Mt.1...@nnrp1.ptd.net...
> >> just a few thoughts...
> >>
> >>
> >> oshuns wrote in message ...
> >> >
> >> >a human being only grows once born.
> >>
> >> But this isn't true. A newly conceived child grows in his/her mother's
> >womb
> >> for nine months before birth.
> >>
> >
>
>
> >i'm sorry. a child isnt whats there at conception.
>
>
> So when exactly does a "fetus" become a child?
>
>
a fetus becomes a baby. a baby becomes a child.
> >> >this is another area where the
> >> >discussions on the topic break down. you see the fetus as a human. i
> >see
> >> >the fetus as a fetus.
> >>
> >>
> >> Why is this? Do you truly believe that a baby suddenly "sparks to
life"
> >the
> >> instant he/she comes in contact with the outside world? That makes no
> >sense
> >> to me.
>
> >in the stages where most women consider abortion (immediately after
finding
> >out they are pregnant) that is not a baby. not even close.
>
>
no reply rick.
> >> Birth is simply a matter of location. What really happens at birth?
> >Before
> >> birth, the baby lives inside his/her mother. After birth, the baby
lives
> >> outside the mother's womb. I don't see how this change of residence
> >> transforms the baby from a meaningless lump of matter into a living,
> >> significant human being.
>
> no reply to this?
>
i didnt reply because the abortion cases i think that are in the majority
take place during the first trimester, not the last.
>
> >> >saying its a 'quick fix' is being judgemental, tho i dont deny that
for
> >> some
> >> >women it might be. but for many others, its holds none of the
> simplicity
> >> of
> >> >a quick fix. giving away such a thing when its created by people who
> >love
> >> >each other but in the wrong time is not fun or easy or a flippant
> >decision.
> >>
> >> "giving away"? It's not a simple matter of giving away a child, it's
> >> killing a child.
> >> Murder is murder regardless of whether we call it "murder" or "choice."
>
> >killing a child is not abortion.
>
>
> I think that you would agree that abortion is closer to killing a child
> than it is to giving a child away.
>
abortion is not killing a child no matter what you compare it to. its the
end of a potential life, the way i see it. a life that could have been, but
won't be.
> >> I would like to know, in your opinion, why is adoption not always a
> better
> >> alternative than abortion?
>
>
> >when did i say it wasnt?
>
>
> Well then how can you condone abortion under any circumstances? Why
> shouldn't all women with unwanted pregnancies simply give the child to
> parents who want him/her?
> Nine months of inconvenience for a woman is a small price to pay for a
human
> life.
>
thats your feeling on the matter. if you were in a newly pregnant woman;s
shoes you might not feel the same way.
s
oshuns
neddam <ned...@Mediaone.net> wrote in message
news:3986543C...@Mediaone.net...
> On a side note: I think its somewhat ironic that the majority of anti
> abortionists are women and the majority of men (from what I have heard)
are
> pro choice.
> Matt
> Pro Choice
>
oshuns = prochoice = female
s
> oshuns wrote:
>
> > stone crest <stone_cre...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote in message
> > news:016b274e...@usw-ex0104-025.remarq.com...
> >
> > > there's only one person involved in a pregnancy?
> >
> > yes. the woman is pregnant all by herself.
> >
> > hmm, what
> > > exactly is a pregnancy then? cuz i must be misinformed...
> > > apples and oranges are both fruit...abortion and rape/murder are
> > > both acts of violence.
> > >
> >
> > rape and murder are violent hateful acts, at the hands of weak people.
> > abortion is a decision or solution, and tho the actual action of
abortion
> > may be seen as violent (it certainly isnt gentle), its a woman doing it
to
> > her own body.
> >
> > s
> >
> > > -stone crest
> > >
> > > i don't question our existence
> > > i just question our modern needs
> > > lyrics: http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~sgh/
> > >
> > >
Karen
::getting the hell away from this subject::
but not before stating...
abortion is taking away anothers life
___
"There is no such thing as better. There is no such thing as worse. They
are our creations, and they dance for our pleasure with our moral
inventions serving as the staff in our palace of lies."
_Enochias Discordia-4/6/00
___
Robin H
about the subject, I found it a very interersting read. (Yet another
thing to add to the list of ideas I need to learn more about.)
Robin
Robin H
I wish so much that the anti-choice people were as reasonable.
Robin
On Mon, 31 Jul 2000 15:34:19 GMT, lauriehester <laurie...@home.com>
wrote:
>
>
>Danny McLindon wrote:
>
>> I think that pro choice is equally as bad a term because it assumes that we
>> "anti-abortion" people are anti-choice. I think we as humans should have
>> the right to do as we please in whatever situation. But I also believe that
>> the growing fetus inside a woman is a human.
>
>So you are anti-abortion and pro-choice. Exactly what I am. So when those two
>positions collide, as in a woman who is pregnant and isn't willing to go through
>with the pregnancy, what happens? Do you decide? Do I decide? Does the
>government decide? Bottom line, it's her choice. You and I who dislike
>abortion, should make it our goal to make sure, through education and free birth
>control, that unwanted pregnancies don't happen. It is through prevention that
>pro-life and pro-choice can work together. Once the unwanted pregnancy happens,
>it is not our place to tell any woman what to do.
>
>Laurie
Rai
> Thanks for the post Rai, being someone who knew absolutly nonthing about the subject, I found it a
> very interersting read. (Yet another thing to add to the list of ideas I need to learn more
> about.)
Oh, it's a fascinating concept. There's volumes of books written about the Karma Theory, attacked
from all sorts of angles. There are several different distinct versions of Karma Theory, but the
origional one is part of Hindu philosophy. A book that I thought was particularly interesting was
"Self Unfoldment" by a Hindu saint named Chinmayananda. It's a good book, and really goes into
depth about not only the Karma Theory, but also the various interplays that impacts our lives.
Worth reading about, if for no other reason than to make you really think hard about the conception
of birth and death. But word to the wise; the Hindu religion is incredibly old, and there are a LOT
of books written about it...and many of the books are flat out boring, and don't really get to the
point, and are filled with misnomers. The best source would, of course, be a solid translation of
"The Bagavad Gita", but that's like reading the Bible. Although....I've read most of the Bible and
most of the Gita and much of the Koran....and I think the Gita is the most interesting of the
bunch. It's not just commands on how to live your life, but rather moral suggestions that guide a
person in his or her decision making. But, like every religion, it's got its faults. What's a boy
to do???
Anyways...that was a tangent. On to your regularly scheduled programs. If you're interested in any
really good books about Eastern philosophy, just email me...most of the really good books that I've
read aren't really found in libraries, so if you're interested, I could try and get a copy and ship
them off to you....B&P? You send me a bunch of blank paper, and I'll send you a published book. ;)
Rai
> i understand that the pressure is surely something i can't even
> imagine...but take this example...suppose someone in your immediate
> family (your dad perhaps) was to die
> unexpectedly...you'd undoubtedly be in a lot of pain, sadness, and
> anger/pressure...what if, along with this pressure, you went ahead and
> killed someone that you were having an argument with...it's obviously
> wrong to do such a thing, but i would have to believe that your act
> was compassion-less, despite the situation you were going
> through...and yes, it was a mistake on your part, but that doesn't
> resolve the fact... sorry to put you in the scenario hehe :)...but the
> point is,
> people need to learn to make decisions when dealt pressureful
> situations, and i don't think that what you are feeling can justify
> your actions...act with intelligence, not emotion.
Maybe I'm reading this all wrong, but it seems to me like this example
of yours is preposterous, and flat out ludicrous. If my girlfriend and
I were faced with an unplanned pregnancy, we wouldn't rush out to the
nearest abortion clinic before the urine can dry on the home-preganancy
test. We would sit down and discuss the situation like rational adults,
and come to as much of a mature decision as possible. It would be
nothing like a person killing someone in haste due to the overwhelming
emotions caused by the sudden death of a family member.
Why do you try so hard to villify any woman who would get an abortion?
Why do you have to turn a confused woman facing an overwhelming decision
in her life into a monstrous, murderous beast? Is it so hard for you to
see the human side of this admittedly harsh procedure?? Is it so hard
for you to see that there are two sides to every coin in the world??
> i hate to break apart this experience, but since you did bring it
> up...
> you say you would never abandon a kid, but having an abortion sure
> seems like a grave abandonment of sorts...perhaps you're child doesn't
> have to live without his/her real dad, but now
> he/she cannot live at all...
This whole argument rests on several important presuppositions, on both
sides of the issue. You suppose that life begins at conceptions, others
believe that life begins at birth, and still others entertain a broad
spectrum of theories as to when "life" begins. World-renown biologists
are incapable of deciding on a uniform definition of "life". Who are
you, or who am I, to set the standards by which others should live??
This is not cut-and-dry, this is not some black and white issue that you
would like it to be. You constantly say that abortion is no different
than murder, and it is certainly a person's choice to murder, but that
doesn't make it right.
However, your contention falls short in the face of one glaring point.
It is generally agreed upon by virtually every single group of
scientists, religious clergy, and common folk that someone who is
already born is "alive", or has a "life force", or whatever you want to
call it. It is NOT agreed upon by anyone as to whether or not a fetus
is considered "alive". Since there is no agreed-upon precident
regarding the nature of fetal life, it is impossible for any one person
to decide for another what "life" is.
I'm sure you'll rebuttle with some obscure example that doesn't make
sense, but that's fine by me. I would hope that those that are rational
anti-abortionists would at least understand what I'm trying to say.
This isn't the pin-stripes of a prison uniform, Stone. This isn't black
and white.
> you don't want me to comment on this, i'm trying hard not to hurt
> feelings or whatever, cuz i'm sure the topic is touchy for you...
Stone, you wouldn't be able to hurt my feelings, no matter how hard you
tried. Go ahead, try...I wanna hear what you have to say. So far, most
of your arguments have been fairly solid, albeit ill-thought out (such
as the murder issue, which I addressed above).
> i don't see how the statement 'violence is immoral' can be argued...i
> believe very strongly in existentialism, and it teaches to perform an
> act based on the act itself and NOT on the
> repercussions...thus, the act of aborting a child is violent and
> therefore wrong...the situation, albeit a tough one, has better
> solutions.
Are you suggesting that the immorality of violence canNOT be argued??
That violence, under and situation, is immoral??? That's odd....I would
think that fighting a war to end the genocide of millions of Jews would
be a relatively "moral" use of violence. I don't know....you contend
that two wrongs don't make a right. I contend that Hitler was WRONG in
what he did...and I contend that the Allied forces were WRONG in killing
people. But the end result was that the slaughter of innocent Jewish
citizens was prevented. Sounds pretty damn right to me.
> >If you don't agree with abortions, than I suggest that YOU never get
> one. But, as a male, you >will never face that decision.
>
> neither will my wife.
Congrats, Stone. I'm glad to see you're better than the rest of us
grunts down here. I didn't realize that you had the perfect condoms
that never rip and the perfect birth control pill that never fails.
Will you please sell some of that to me??? Because I didnt' realize
that 100% birth-control was out on the market.....
Rai
> i will never have to deal with an unwanted pregnancy and neither
> should the majority of people..
"and neither should the majority of people"??? Why....should the
majority of people only fuck when they want to have kids?? Does this
all go back to your odd beliefs in the unnaturality of birth control??
I'll even give you the fact that birth control is unnatural...but I
refuse to suggest that it's wrong. And I also refuse to admit that it
is 100% fail-safe. Pills get forgotten, condoms get ripped, diaphragms
pop out.
I pity the day that you require forgiveness for something, Stone. The
way you're so harsh on everyone else, one would think you're perfect.
Knowing that you're only human, I'd assume that you're not perfect...and
when you mess up, I'd hate to see your overwhelmingly unforgiving morals
come and bite you on the ass.
Robin H
find the time to do the reading. Oh, for the carefree days of youth
when I had time to read five books a week.
Robin
Penni
Lamia wrote in message <8m5m15$4sm$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>> shouldn't all women with unwanted pregnancies simply give the child to
>> parents who want him/her?
>
>handicapped or ill. Since many unwanted pregnancies are unwanted
>because the woman is sick or poor herself, many of the babies that
>result from unwanted pregnancies suffer from birth defects and other
>health problems.
I can't buy this. The majority of abortions are not performed because of
the poor health of the baby. Abortions occur because people do not feel
that a child would fit into their lives at that particular moment.
>> Nine months of inconvenience for a woman is a small price to pay for
>a human
>> life.
>
>What if the woman's life is in danger if she carried the pregnancy to
>term? Is a woman's life a small price to pay for a fetus's?
That wasn't what I meant. I just don't see a need to abort the child when
one could give the baby to people that would care for it.
I know that if my wife's life was to be lost because of the child she was
carrying, I would want the child removed. I would value the life of my wife
higher than that of our unborn child.
But, this is definitely the minority case. And in cases such as this, I
don't think that abortion is the word I would use to describe the situation.
-rick
Penni
oshuns wrote in message ...
>
>Penni <p...@ptd.net> wrote in message
>news:r%rh5.12443$Mt.1...@nnrp1.ptd.net...
>>
>> oshuns wrote in message ...
>> >
>> >Penni <p...@ptd.net> wrote in message
>> >news:5Krh5.12438$Mt.1...@nnrp1.ptd.net...
>> >> just a few thoughts...
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> oshuns wrote in message ...
>> >> >
>> >> >a human being only grows once born.
>> >>
>> >> But this isn't true. A newly conceived child grows in his/her
mother's
>> >womb
>> >> for nine months before birth.
>> >>
>> >
>>
>>
>> >i'm sorry. a child isnt whats there at conception.
>>
>>
>> So when exactly does a "fetus" become a child?
>>
>>
>
>a fetus becomes a baby. a baby becomes a child.
This is just semantics. When does this transformation take place? The
child starts developing at conception and continues to develop into his/her
late teens or early twenties.
I just feel that the word "fetus" somehow makes it easier to condone
abortion. It just sounds a lot less personal than aborting a "child."
>
>> >> >this is another area where the
>> >> >discussions on the topic break down. you see the fetus as a human.
i
>> >see
>> >> >the fetus as a fetus.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Why is this? Do you truly believe that a baby suddenly "sparks to
>life"
>> >the
>> >> instant he/she comes in contact with the outside world? That makes no
>> >sense
>> >> to me.
>>
>> >in the stages where most women consider abortion (immediately after
>finding
>> >out they are pregnant) that is not a baby. not even close.
>no reply rick.
What can I say? You say it isn't a baby, I say that it is. Calling it a
fetus doesn't make it any less horrible.
>> >> Birth is simply a matter of location. What really happens at birth?
>> >Before
>> >> birth, the baby lives inside his/her mother. After birth, the baby
>lives
>> >> outside the mother's womb. I don't see how this change of residence
>> >> transforms the baby from a meaningless lump of matter into a living,
>> >> significant human being.
>>
>> no reply to this?
>i didnt reply because the abortion cases i think that are in the majority
>take place during the first trimester, not the last.
But still, when does this magical transformation take place? When does the
fetus stop being a "fetus" and start being a child?
>> >> >saying its a 'quick fix' is being judgemental, tho i dont deny that
>for
>> >> some
>> >> >women it might be. but for many others, its holds none of the
>> simplicity
>> >> of
>> >> >a quick fix. giving away such a thing when its created by people who
>> >love
>> >> >each other but in the wrong time is not fun or easy or a flippant
>> >decision.
>> >>
>> >> "giving away"? It's not a simple matter of giving away a child, it's
>> >> killing a child.
>> >> Murder is murder regardless of whether we call it "murder" or
"choice."
>>
>> >killing a child is not abortion.
>>
>>
>> I think that you would agree that abortion is closer to killing a child
>> than it is to giving a child away.
>>
>abortion is not killing a child no matter what you compare it to. its the
>end of a potential life, the way i see it. a life that could have been,
but
>won't be.
I disagree. There will never be an agreement between the sides on this
issue. It really all comes down to whether or not one believes that a baby
is truly a "baby" before birth. Most people are anti-murder, so if they
truly believed that an unborn child is a human being, they would no longer
agree that abortion is a viable option.
>> >> I would like to know, in your opinion, why is adoption not always a
>> better
>> >> alternative than abortion?
>>
>>
>> >when did i say it wasnt?
>>
>>
>> Well then how can you condone abortion under any circumstances? Why
>> shouldn't all women with unwanted pregnancies simply give the child to
>> parents who want him/her?
>> Nine months of inconvenience for a woman is a small price to pay for a
>human
>> life.
>thats your feeling on the matter. if you were in a newly pregnant woman;s
>shoes you might not feel the same way.
I'm not trying to fight with you or anything. I am just trying to
understand your point of view. This is one thing I don't understand. Why
not choose adoption to abortion EVERY time?
-rick
Sunsoar
I agree with Steph on this. It is a woman's choice. I am pro-choice. I think
that Stone Crest you need to think about not only the woman who's body it is
but also the child's life...
Fair enough they might not have one, but would living sometimes be the worse
option. Abortion may be the only choice because the woman may have no means
to support the child. Would it be better for it to grow up without a proper
education or health needs etc etc and minimal life chances?? The mother may
also lose all potential to become something. Is it better then to sacrifice
one thing instead of two??
This difference in opinion though will never be resolved. I have been
involved in this argument many times in school and university. Always
different opinions.
But really i think when it comes down to it it is the womans choice. There
may be a myriad of regrets but sometimes it is the only possible solution
that someone can see. This experience would be traumatic for the woman, the
majority could in no way be insensitive, just that they are forced into the
position.
One day i would like to have children however if i got pregnant now there is
no way that I could keep the baby, It would not be fair to me, and honestly,
I come first. That is not selfishness, just the way it is. I would rather
give my children the opportunity to a good life when I am educated and able
to give them a chance.
- Sunsoar (who was trying hard not to get into this argument)
Sunsoar
"Lamia" <lamia_l...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8m4vo7$l8v$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <8m4j3l$83q$1...@newssvr03-int.news.prodigy.com>,
> "Melissa Zee" <melis...@prodigy.net> wrote:
> >
> > Eddie Hill <eh...@umr.edu> wrote in message
> news:3985CA3A...@umr.edu...
>
> > > Now, what's left to talk about. . .
> > >
> > >
> > you forgot about about bootlegging, scalping, eddie's hair, and sun
> vs. star
>
> Oh, I was just about to post "Ed's hair" when I saw that you'd already
> said it. That's one topic we will never exhaust.
>
> Also "What is the line that follows 'take my hand, not my picture'
> in 'Corduroy'?"
>
Thank you for changing this serious post that was never going to go anywhere
into something amusing. On the topic of Pearl jam songs on the radio every
time i get into the car lately it seems like Pearl Jam are on.... I have
heard Oceans, Spin the Black Circle, Breakerfall, Crazy Mary, (Times of
Trouble - yeah i know :)), Corduroy, Off he goes... weird..
- Sunsoar
oshuns
stone crest <stone_cre...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote in message
<mega snip>
> > i'm only trying to stop the violence.
>
> -stone crest
isn't trying to have the right to control what a person who has nothing to
do with you does with her own body just another form of violence?
s
>
> i don't question our existence
> i just question our modern needs
> lyrics: http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~sgh/
>
> >
> >Laura
oshuns
>
> Lamia wrote in message <8m5m15$4sm$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
> >In article <r%rh5.12443$Mt.1...@nnrp1.ptd.net>,
> > "Penni" <p...@ptd.net> wrote:
> >
> >> shouldn't all women with unwanted pregnancies simply give the child to
> >> parents who want him/her?
> >
> >handicapped or ill. Since many unwanted pregnancies are unwanted
> >because the woman is sick or poor herself, many of the babies that
> >result from unwanted pregnancies suffer from birth defects and other
> >health problems.
>
>
> I can't buy this. The majority of abortions are not performed because of
> the poor health of the baby. Abortions occur because people do not feel
> that a child would fit into their lives at that particular moment.
>
but it THEIR lives. it has nothing to do with you. you should have no say.
why do people think they should have a say? its a private and personal
decision.
> >> Nine months of inconvenience for a woman is a small price to pay for
> >a human
> >> life.
> >
> >What if the woman's life is in danger if she carried the pregnancy to
> >term? Is a woman's life a small price to pay for a fetus's?
>
>
> That wasn't what I meant. I just don't see a need to abort the child when
> one could give the baby to people that would care for it.
>
> I know that if my wife's life was to be lost because of the child she was
> carrying, I would want the child removed. I would value the life of my
wife
> higher than that of our unborn child.
> But, this is definitely the minority case. And in cases such as this, I
> don't think that abortion is the word I would use to describe the
situation.
>
> -rick
well use whatever word you want, it would be an abortion.
s
Holly Jones
> have the 'right' to murder someone else and i'm not
> complaining...if people were moral and did not force violent
> acts on their baby (or themselves...*sigh*), then they wouldn't
> be complaining about losing this right...
But, in cases of young teenage pregnancy, the unprepared fathers of
these unwanted babies often have the "right" or "privilege" of just
leaving the mother, since the problem isn't taking place inside his
body, since the changes aren't taking over his body. The mother
cannot just abandon her problem, or the consequences of it. It
takes two to make a baby, but it only takes one to deliver it and
bring it to term.
This is an argument that comes up again and again and each time I
try so hard to stay away, but can't seem to do so. The only
offering that I can ever give is that if YOU were in the situation
of being faced with an unplanned, untimely pregnancy, the option of
abortion will look, while not necessarily inviting, much much
different. Pregnancy is emotionally trying enough as it is, without
a bunch of people telling the pregnant woman what she can and cannot
do with her body.
I personally think that pregnancy is one of the cruelest trials of a
woman's life, and could never see myself as a mother and hope that I
don't have to, but again, that is my PERSONAL opinion. Many people
find it to be a beautiful act, and that is fine. I just happen to
find it cruel and unnecessarily painful, and in these days of abused
fertility drugs (septuplets? please!), population explosions,
welfare shortages, and undereducation of the human race, I feel that
abortion is much less evil than bringing a baby into the world
without a clue as to how to take care of it or where it will go.
Also, one thing that I'm always amazed that everyone forgets.
If women are supposed to bring every pregnancy to term and then, if
they can't support the baby, give it up for adoption...
Who is supposed to pay for the hospital bills, time missed at work,
etc? Especially if the woman is alone in her problem?
Holly, who really needs to stay out of this conversation because it
only angers her.
Holly Jones
> ahead and killed someone that you were having an argument
> with...it's obviously wrong to do such a thing, but i would have
If that "someone" to be killed were solely existing within the
confined body and womb of one woman and if that one woman were the
life-support for that someone, then your scenario would hole a little
more backing, but you are talking about killing a person who has
already established his or her own ability to be self-sufficient.
This argument is always so circular, because it always comes down to
"When does life begin?" and "Who is more important, a living woman or
the fetus/embryo."
I look at it this way. I am pro-choice and, if faced with the
situation, would opt for abortion rather than carrying a child that I
knew I couldn't care for to term. I don't believe in a Christian
hell or any sort of religious binding, but if my actions were wrong,
and judged by some higher power to be wrong, then you can hold the
satisfaction of knowing that I would be punished. If not, oh well.
But while I am here as a mortal soul on Earth, I choose to govern my
body despite your moral arguments.
Even Al Gore used to be against abortion. People change with time,
and situations always look and feel different when you are presented
with them personally. Pass some of that 100% birth control over
here.
Holly
oshuns
>
> oshuns wrote in message ...
> >
> >>
> >> oshuns wrote in message ...
> >> >
> >> >> just a few thoughts...
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> oshuns wrote in message ...
> >> >> >
> >> >> >a human being only grows once born.
> >> >>
> >> >> But this isn't true. A newly conceived child grows in his/her
> mother's
> >> >womb
> >> >> for nine months before birth.
> >> >>
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >> >i'm sorry. a child isnt whats there at conception.
> >>
> >>
> >> So when exactly does a "fetus" become a child?
> >>
> >>
> >
> >a fetus becomes a baby. a baby becomes a child.
>
>
> This is just semantics. When does this transformation take place? The
> child starts developing at conception and continues to develop into
his/her
> late teens or early twenties.
>
> I just feel that the word "fetus" somehow makes it easier to condone
> abortion. It just sounds a lot less personal than aborting a "child."
> >
yes the word fetus does make it easier to condone abortion because it is not
a child. pro life people refer to the fetus as a child to sway their
argument, and if thats what you believe, that at the second week of a
pregnancy there is a child in the womb, there is little i can probably do to
change your mind. to me that is just silly talk (not to belittle you). if
a fetus were a child it wouldnt need be called a fetus.
i don't know. i think most abortions take place very early in the pregnancy
and since i trust people to decide whats best for themselves, i am pro
choice.
right. and deciding what someone else should think is control. its not our
place.
> >> >> I would like to know, in your opinion, why is adoption not always a
> >> better
> >> >> alternative than abortion?
> >>
> >>
> >> >when did i say it wasnt?
> >>
> >>
> >> Well then how can you condone abortion under any circumstances? Why
> >> shouldn't all women with unwanted pregnancies simply give the child to
> >> parents who want him/her?
> >> Nine months of inconvenience for a woman is a small price to pay for a
> >human
> >> life.
>
> >thats your feeling on the matter. if you were in a newly pregnant
woman;s
> >shoes you might not feel the same way.
>
>
> I'm not trying to fight with you or anything. I am just trying to
> understand your point of view. This is one thing I don't understand. Why
> not choose adoption to abortion EVERY time?
>
because. some women who abort get emotionally ripped apart by having to do
so. they conceived accidentally with someone they love, and one day might
want a baby with. to bring this baby to term, so that it is actually a
baby....and then hand it to someone else....that makes for a lifetime of
regret and pain. people who give away children for adoption arent all the
same. some are fine with it. others...well they dont have a day without a
question mark and a longing for that child. and that is just the emotional
standpoint. it would be alot to bear, tho to you it would be more
humanitarian. but you arent thinking of the woman in the situation, only
whats in her womb. abortion or adoption, its an individual's choice. i
know this about me, or at least think it. were i to become pregnant, i dont
know if i could have an abortion. when i love, its deeply and fully and i
know i would want that piece of me and whomever to grow. i know it would be
irresponsible of me, i can not afford offspring in any way, and i dont know
that id want to bring children into this world anyway....but i do know that
adoption...NO WAY. i would not be able to hand over my baby to someone and
be able to function as a normal person again. and in saying that im not
judging anyone who does give up children for adoption. i think its the
greatest gift one can give to parents who cant conceive. people who do are
brave and stronger than me. *just because i wouldnt do it doesnt mean i
will try to stop others from doing what they need to do*.
s
Holly Jones
> that have sex with the idea that if they get pregnant, they're
> going to abort...i think that's very irresponsible on their part.
Perhaps to you pregnancy isn't a punishment, but to a young woman
with ambitions that can't coincide with an unplanned pregnancy, or
for a young rape or incest victim, pregnancy most certainly is a
punishment.
> denied? no...do i think they should be having one? no again.
So everyone should be celibate until they are ready to produce
children? And don't throw up the birth control idea, because no
birth control method is 100% effective, not even sterilization (cited
as 99.7%).
Holly
stone crest
am adament in my beliefs that no baby, fetus, etc should have to
die...but i would never harshly condemn someone for having an
abortion...i understand that it was not easy for them, and
despite not agreeing with it, i would still be compassionate
towards them...yes it's true that i would hate the actions they
took, but i'd forgive them...
'to err is human; to forgive, divine'...i live by that.
-stone crest
i don't question our existence
i just question our modern needs
lyrics: http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~sgh/
Rai <mra...@spam.umich.edu> wrote:
>I pity the day that you require forgiveness for something,
Stone. The
>way you're so harsh on everyone else, one would think you're
perfect.
>Knowing that you're only human, I'd assume that you're not
perfect...and
>when you mess up, I'd hate to see your overwhelmingly
unforgiving morals
>come and bite you on the ass.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Holly Jones
> eventually become a human being, that will eventually become the
> mother's son or daughter...regardless of if it's a human or a
> fetus, it's alive.
Not all seeds grow to become plants...
Holly
stone crest
what?? i agree that it's a very difficult decision to make
sometimes, but i still think that emotions get in the way of the
solution...i'm sure you'd sit down with your wife and discuss
it, but you cannot tell me that all your emotions in the back of
your head, the ones screaming out telling you that if you have
the baby, it'll ruin your life, your dream, etc didn't hinder
your ability to think rationally...
and because it's not black and white, you can feel better about
the decision you made, is that what you're trying to say? i
mean, you can go ahead and abort the fetus because, yes, it
could have been alive, but then again it might not...
i can't believe you're even using that to justify you're
actions..
>
>
>
>> you don't want me to comment on this, i'm trying hard not to
hurt
>> feelings or whatever, cuz i'm sure the topic is touchy for
you...
>
>Stone, you wouldn't be able to hurt my feelings, no matter how
hard you
>tried. Go ahead, try...I wanna hear what you have to say. So
far, most
>of your arguments have been fairly solid, albeit ill-thought
out (such
>as the murder issue, which I addressed above).
geez, i'm not fucking try to hurt your feelings, man...you're
posting your views and i'm replying to them...'go ahead,
try'...what's up with that?? it's not a competition..
>Are you suggesting that the immorality of violence canNOT be
argued??
>That violence, under and situation, is immoral??? That's
odd....I would
>think that fighting a war to end the genocide of millions of
Jews would
>be a relatively "moral" use of violence. I don't know....you
contend
>that two wrongs don't make a right. I contend that Hitler was
WRONG in
>what he did...and I contend that the Allied forces were WRONG
in killing
>people. But the end result was that the slaughter of innocent
Jewish
>citizens was prevented. Sounds pretty damn right to me.
i believe that there were better options than having to kill in
order to stop the slaughtering.
>
>> >If you don't agree with abortions, than I suggest that YOU
never get
>> one. But, as a male, you >will never face that decision.
>>
>> neither will my wife.
>
>Congrats, Stone. I'm glad to see you're better than the rest
of us
>grunts down here. I didn't realize that you had the perfect
condoms
>that never rip and the perfect birth control pill that never
fails.
>Will you please sell some of that to me??? Because I didnt'
realize
>that 100% birth-control was out on the market.....
well it is, and it's called abstinence...unfortunately it's not
for sale, and you can't get it on the market.
-stone crest
i don't question our existence
i just question our modern needs
lyrics: http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~sgh/