ot--canadian seal hunt
oshuns
i read about this in the free weekly this week...until then i hadnt heard:
the canadian government is allowing the slaughter of over 3 million baby
seals over the next three years.
i tried to not think about it, but its been brought back to my attention by
someone who is donating to a fund to help try to overturn this dispicable
decision.
if you are an animal rights type of person, or are simply against animal
cruelty...please visit
http://www.ifaw.org/ifaw/general/default.aspx?oid=17782
to sign a petition or donate or get informed.
=(
i need jack irons right now:
Hunters of land. Hunters of sea. Exploit anything for money.
I refer to anybody that takes advantage of what that is free.
They won't fight back.
It's only a thought that makes it seem right. What you don't see is because
of your sight.
Take what you want. Kill what you can. That's just one way of the mind of
man.
Take their lives. Sell their parts but there is not taking of their hearts.
blech. stupid sickening canada.
please, if you feel it, get involved.
thanks
sad steph
joemono
news:c5fa0n$12dq3$1...@ID-186366.news.uni-berlin.de...
> i could vomit.
>
> i read about this in the free weekly this week...until then i hadnt heard:
> the canadian government is allowing the slaughter of over 3 million baby
> seals over the next three years.
Did it say why the gov't was allowing it?
joemono
oshuns
joemono <mont...@NOSPAM.msu.edu> wrote in message
news:c5fbnj$ob$1...@msunews.cl.msu.edu...
for money, why else. fur, meat, etc. they try to mask it as indigenous
culture, but thats a front, its way beyond that. its scientifically proven
the numbers are not sustainable and stand to wipe out the seals...here:
http://www.hsus.org/ace/15954
=(
s
>
>
joemono
Well, I just wondered if it had anything to do with overpopulation. But it
looks as if that's clearly not it.
I've got a question - how do animal rights activists feel about fishing?
(Animal rights is a topic I know nothing about).
joemono
oshuns
>
> "oshuns" <osh...@videotron.ca> wrote in message
> news:c5fcr8$12rjn$1...@ID-186366.news.uni-berlin.de...
> >
> > joemono <mont...@NOSPAM.msu.edu> wrote in message
> > news:c5fbnj$ob$1...@msunews.cl.msu.edu...
> > > "oshuns" <osh...@videotron.ca> wrote in message
> > > news:c5fa0n$12dq3$1...@ID-186366.news.uni-berlin.de...
> > > > i could vomit.
> > > >
> > > > i read about this in the free weekly this week...until then i hadnt
> > heard:
> > > > the canadian government is allowing the slaughter of over 3 million
> baby
> > > > seals over the next three years.
> > >
> > > Did it say why the gov't was allowing it?
> > >
> > > joemono
> >
> > for money, why else. fur, meat, etc. they try to mask it as
indigenous
> > culture, but thats a front, its way beyond that. its scientifically
> proven
> > the numbers are not sustainable and stand to wipe out the seals...here:
> > http://www.hsus.org/ace/15954
>
> Well, I just wondered if it had anything to do with overpopulation. But
it
> looks as if that's clearly not it.
no, the numbers are dwindling. the canadian govt is also sticking to claims
that the seals are harming the cod fishing industry, despite the fact that
oceans and fisheries experts have clearly stated this is not the case. its
just a simple case of slaughter in the name of the mighty dollar. i hope
you signed the petition.
> I've got a question - how do animal rights activists feel about fishing?
> (Animal rights is a topic I know nothing about).
what do you mean how do we feel about fishing?
s
>
> joemono
>
>
Danny Boy
Hee hee.
joemono
claims
> that the seals are harming the cod fishing industry, despite the fact that
> oceans and fisheries experts have clearly stated this is not the case. its
> just a simple case of slaughter in the name of the mighty dollar. i hope
> you signed the petition.
>
> > I've got a question - how do animal rights activists feel about fishing?
> > (Animal rights is a topic I know nothing about).
>
> what do you mean how do we feel about fishing?
I hope I didn't offend! I just meant that I usually hear stories about
animal rights activists protesting the treatment of chickens, pigs, cows,
etc. - and now seals. Like I said, I don't know anything about it, but it
seems that no one is complaining about fish sticks. I was just curious if
organizations like PETA were against fishing.
joemono
DGDevin
> I hope I didn't offend! I just meant that I usually hear stories about
> animal rights activists protesting the treatment of chickens, pigs, cows,
> etc. - and now seals. Like I said, I don't know anything about it, but it
> seems that no one is complaining about fish sticks. I was just curious if
> organizations like PETA were against fishing.
Cute animals like seals tend to attract more outrage when they are harvested
than not so attractive animals like fish. If fish were furry and had big
eyes, the wingnuts at PETA would probably spend more time screaming about
them, in the meantime they probably like fish sticks as much as you do.
karen
"oshuns" <osh...@videotron.ca> wrote in message
news:c5fa0n$12dq3$1...@ID-186366.news.uni-berlin.de...
karen
"oshuns" <osh...@videotron.ca> wrote in message
news:c5fa0n$12dq3$1...@ID-186366.news.uni-berlin.de...
Mirella
>i could vomit.
>
>i read about this in the free weekly this week...until then i hadnt heard:
>the canadian government is allowing the slaughter of over 3 million baby
>seals over the next three years.
It's all over the news here in the Netherlands too. At least beating them to
death is forbidden now... Bloody pictures were shown :(.
It's sad: the people hunting do it out of poverty and the seals are blamed for
the lack of fish (because they eat...).
The people responsable for this should burn in hell. Too bad I don't believe in
hell.
I did not want to post about it, being Dutch and not Canadian (like posting
about Bush always triggers the 'you are anti-american' messages), but I'm glad
you did. Thanks.
groetjes,
Mirella :)
--
Bugs Pearl Jam Portal: http://pearljam.start4all.com
oshuns
well i dont know what peta or the like do about fishing. but i do know that
places like the center for marine conservation are very concerned with
overfishing and making sure fisheries use measures that are sustainable,
passing bills and whatnot to protect fish stocks.
s
>
>
Vin
>places like the center for marine conservation are very concerned with
>overfishing and making sure fisheries use measures that are sustainable,
>passing bills and whatnot to protect fish stocks.
>
>s
his point is that you're all up in arms because the cute seals are
getting killed, but we never saw a thread from you when cod was
nearly fished into extinction.
oshuns
Vin <i...@like.snow> wrote in message
news:yeSec.120$Py1....@news20.bellglobal.com...
im vegetarian, thats my contribution to the cod fisheries.
also, cod isnt near extinction.
also, the canadian government is allowing the biggest slaughter of a near
endangered species on earth. there is good reason to be up in arms.
so fuck off.
s
>
Vin
and you wear leather
>also, cod isnt near extinction.
atlantic cod is an endangered species, in the last 30 years there's
been a 97% decline in the cod population, in the last 30 years there's
been a 300% increase in harp seal population.
>also, the canadian government is allowing the biggest slaughter of a near
>endangered species on earth. there is good reason to be up in arms.
there are 5.2 million harp seals in canada alone, 'the harp seal herd
is considered healthy and abundant - in no way are seals an endangered
species' - Fisheries and Oceans Canada.
>so fuck off.
>s
harp seals have been hunted every year for longer than you've been
alive, from 1997 to 2001 the quota was 275,000, this year the quota
was raised from 300,000 to 350,000 due to continuing and abundant
increase in seal population. thats all thats happened.
so, you could care less about the endangered codfish, but you're ranting
and raving about the flourishing harp seal. you can't say its because
you're more against the slaughter of animals for cosmetic reasons vs
nutritional since you don't eat meat, but you wear leather. correct me
if i'm wrong but what we're left with is that cod aren't cute, but
little baby seals are very, very cute.
http://econscience.org/scott/cramerweb/c164/img/cod/cod.gasp.jpg
http://www.lakeheadu.ca/~borfor/world/mammals/harp_seal.jpg
oshuns
Vin <i...@like.snow> wrote in message
only you would find an argument *against* trying to stop baby seals being
clubbed to death or sliced open. how proud you must be.
did you sign the petition? or are you against their protection because they
happen to be cute?
this isnt about me, you fucking ignoramus.
s
Vin
>clubbed to death or sliced open. how proud you must be.
>did you sign the petition? or are you against their protection because they
>happen to be cute?
let me guess you signed the petition to prevent the slaughter of an animal
simply for its fur while you walk around in your leather boots, right?
that makes a lot of sense.
karen
...
> >only you would find an argument *against* trying to stop baby seals being
> >clubbed to death or sliced open.
and did you read where it said they use ice picks too!?
and i wonder how seals behaviour patterns are, im going to do a little
research.
because it also bothers me a lot that they go and kill the littlest seals,
id imagine it brings a lot of panic to the parents...not that the people
doing it give a fuck...im just saying..
oshuns
Vin <i...@like.snow> wrote in message
> >only you would find an argument *against* trying to stop baby seals being
> >clubbed to death or sliced open. how proud you must be.
> >did you sign the petition? or are you against their protection because
they
> >happen to be cute?
>
> let me guess you signed the petition to prevent the slaughter of an animal
> simply for its fur while you walk around in your leather boots, right?
> that makes a lot of sense.
try to bring me down because i care about something enough to attempt a
proactive reaction to it. try hard, because you are going to fail. who
gives a fuck what i wear, asshole? our government is allowing for the
suffering and inhumane slaughter of millions of baby seals. its been
proven without a doubt that the slaughters of the seals, all of them under 3
months old, is inhumane. they are skinned while still alive. they are
conscious as they are dragged across the ice to be skinned. they are shot
and left to suffer. all for parts NOBODY NEEDS. are you in support of
this, vin? did you sign the fucking petition or not? do you give a shit
about the cod or the seals, or do you just want to take me down a notch for
caring, trying to turn it into some entertainment tonight like scandalous
expose on me because im walking around in 'leather boots' (wrong, its
converse, but whatever). im not on trial here, and if i were, i would win.
im vegetarian, not vegan. look up the difference. youre sickening, and you
make yourself so ugly sometimes.
like i said this is about me, or even the insensitive other-cheek-turning
useless ignoramus intent on spoiling the most heartfelt of pleas that you
are. i still really hope anyone reading will go inform themselves and sign
the petition or make a donation....here:
http://www.hsus.org/ace/19076 (karen, this is an american link)
or
http://www.ifaw.org/ifaw/general/default.aspx?oid=85390
> there are 5.2 million harp seals in canada alone, 'the harp seal herd
> is considered healthy and abundant - in no way are seals an endangered
> species' - Fisheries and Oceans Canada.
even if that were so, does it make it ok to just go out and savagely kill
them? that makes it ok with you? ive got a quote for you too:
"It is clear to me the Department of Fisheries and Oceans is not only
unable, but also unwilling to enforce their own regulations," campaigner
Rebecca Aldworth said. "Allowing the very sealers caught on this tape to
return to the hunt this year is an official endorsement from the Canadian
government that illegal, cruel behavior is an accepted part of the
commercial seal hunt."
the united states passed a bill disallowing the entry of ANY seal related
product into their country, and further are trying to get paul martin to
overturn the decision to allow these slaughters without any enforcement of
fishery and ocean regulations for 'acceptable' kills. the numbers are
astronomical and without reason, 3 million in 3 years. i applaud the
united states on the pressure theyre placing on canada, and i hope they
offer a serious ultimatum. use that power for good.
s
oshuns
>
MAJOR EDIT
> like i said this is about me
ISNT ISNT ISNT
hehe
s
karen
karen
> > even if that were so, does it make it ok to just go out and savagely
kill
> > them? that makes it ok with you? ive got a quote for you too:
> >
>
and get this...
q: are there any penalties when hunters exceed the gov. quota?
a: no. when the quota is exceeded, the gov. raises it.
wtf?
and what...do the hunters literally kill the babies while theyre nursing?
man..doesnt get much crueler
Vin
>proactive reaction to it. try hard, because you are going to fail. who
>gives a fuck what i wear, asshole? our government is allowing for the
>suffering and inhumane slaughter of millions of baby seals. its been
>proven without a doubt that the slaughters of the seals, all of them under 3
>months old, is inhumane. they are skinned while still alive. they are
>conscious as they are dragged across the ice to be skinned. they are shot
>and left to suffer. all for parts NOBODY NEEDS. are you in support of
>this, vin?
thats great, what do you think happened to the animals killed to make
your shoes? seems kind of silly to sign some petition for one animal
and then turn around and buy a product made from the senseless slaughter
of another animal.
>did you sign the fucking petition or not? do you give a shit
>about the cod or the seals, or do you just want to take me down a notch for
>caring,
i'm pointing out that your deep passion for harp seals appears to be
motivated by little else than feeling sad for the fuzzy wuzzy wittle
baby seals. there are plenty of animal species that ARE threatened
and/or endangered that need attention and protection, there are plenty
of animals that are treated and slaughtered with as much or more cruelty,
but you're not posting about them and people aren't protesting about them,
and the public simply doesn't care about them because they're not cute
and fuzzy. show a picture of a bloody baby seal and suddenly everyones
a hardened animal rights activist.
>even if that were so, does it make it ok to just go out and savagely kill
>them? that makes it ok with you? ive got a quote for you too:
so we've gone from being outraged at the slaughter of an 'endangered'
species to being outraged at the slaughter of an animal to simply being
outraged at the -method- of slaughter of said animal. would you like
to know what the cow your shoes came from went through?
>the united states passed a bill disallowing the entry of ANY seal related
>product into their country, and further are trying to get paul martin to
>overturn the decision to allow these slaughters without any enforcement of
>fishery and ocean regulations for 'acceptable' kills. the numbers are
>astronomical and without reason, 3 million in 3 years. i applaud the
>united states on the pressure theyre placing on canada, and i hope they
>offer a serious ultimatum. use that power for good.
>s
wrong wrong wrong, its ONE million in three years, not three million,
and from what i've read the embargo on harp seal imports is rarely if
ever enforced because it's inconsistent with other US legislation.
everything you've said on this topic is wrong, -everything-. do some
research before spouting out more 'facts'.
DGDevin
>
> im vegetarian, thats my contribution to the cod fisheries.
> also, cod isnt near extinction.
> also, the canadian government is allowing the biggest slaughter of a near
> endangered species on earth. there is good reason to be up in arms.
>
> so fuck off.
>
> s
When the Canadian govt. tried to stop illegal overfishing by Spain a few
years back I didn't notice the "progressive" element stampeding to their
aid. Amazing how concerned they are when a cute animal is in trouble, but
fish, of infinitely more importance than harp seals, they just aren't cute
enough to get excied about. And you don't know shit about the Atlantic
fisheries BTW or you wouldn't be so flip about the state of fish stocks
there.
oshuns
Vin <i...@like.snow> wrote in message
> >try to bring me down because i care about something enough to attempt a
> >proactive reaction to it. try hard, because you are going to fail. who
> >gives a fuck what i wear, asshole? our government is allowing for the
> >suffering and inhumane slaughter of millions of baby seals. its been
> >proven without a doubt that the slaughters of the seals, all of them
under 3
> >months old, is inhumane. they are skinned while still alive. they are
> >conscious as they are dragged across the ice to be skinned. they are
shot
> >and left to suffer. all for parts NOBODY NEEDS. are you in support of
> >this, vin?
>
> thats great, what do you think happened to the animals killed to make
> your shoes? seems kind of silly to sign some petition for one animal
> and then turn around and buy a product made from the senseless slaughter
> of another animal.
whats silly is attempting to find a reason NOT to save the inhumane
slaughter of millions (millions!) of baby seals. did i say silly? i meant
revolting. but i guess this is the kind of thing you do to make you feel
better about yourself, vin.
> >did you sign the fucking petition or not? do you give a shit
> >about the cod or the seals, or do you just want to take me down a notch
for
> >caring,
>
> i'm pointing out that your deep passion for harp seals appears to be
> motivated by little else than feeling sad for the fuzzy wuzzy wittle
> baby seals.
no, youre pointing out your own cold sick way of looking at the world. you
have no idea about my motivations. my deep passion is for the ethical
treatment of animals. i am against their slaughter, but im not so naive to
think i can stop animal death around the world. but at least it can be done
according to code, so that the animal isnt made to suffer. thats not the
case with the seals.
ugh, why am i even bothering. you think you know everything and you dont.
but youre just a smug little bitter moron attempting to poison something
that is for the benefit of something that happens to be cute. what, are
you jealous that the seals are cute and you arent? thats what it sounds
like, you total ignoramus.
>there are plenty of animal species that ARE threatened
> and/or endangered that need attention and protection, there are plenty
> of animals that are treated and slaughtered with as much or more cruelty,
> but you're not posting about them and people aren't protesting about them,
> and the public simply doesn't care about them because they're not cute
> and fuzzy. show a picture of a bloody baby seal and suddenly everyones
> a hardened animal rights activist.
the canadian government publicly announced the seal massacre in november
2003 or thereabouts. i didnt hear about in the media until this past week's
montreal mirror or hour, and had i not read it there i STILL wouldnt know
about it. this is a current happening that needs to be stopped.
either do what you can to stop this, or enjoy living your life of doing
absolutely nothing to prevent or stop this kind of thing. the torturous
deaths of animals might be ok with you, but dont do nothing and take it out
on me that youre a miserable human being here for himself and absolutely
noone or nothing else.
you are unbelievable vin. only you would attempt a smear campaign on
someone who wanted to bring it to the attention of others who might be
interested that our government is responsible for whats going on here. and
its not the first time either. you live and love to piss on sunshine.
youre disgusting.
> >even if that were so, does it make it ok to just go out and savagely kill
> >them? that makes it ok with you? ive got a quote for you too:
>
> so we've gone from being outraged at the slaughter of an 'endangered'
> species to being outraged at the slaughter of an animal to simply being
> outraged at the -method- of slaughter of said animal. would you like
> to know what the cow your shoes came from went through?
>
> >the united states passed a bill disallowing the entry of ANY seal related
> >product into their country, and further are trying to get paul martin to
> >overturn the decision to allow these slaughters without any enforcement
of
> >fishery and ocean regulations for 'acceptable' kills. the numbers are
> >astronomical and without reason, 3 million in 3 years. i applaud the
> >united states on the pressure theyre placing on canada, and i hope they
> >offer a serious ultimatum. use that power for good.
> >s
>
> wrong wrong wrong, its ONE million in three years, not three million,
> and from what i've read the embargo on harp seal imports is rarely if
> ever enforced because it's inconsistent with other US legislation.
> everything you've said on this topic is wrong, -everything-. do some
> research before spouting out more 'facts'.
>
yep, one million in three years. numbers have never been my strong suit.
its ok vin, support our government's decision. and try to bring down anyone
who tries to stop it.
please...never procreate.
s
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
oshuns
DGDevin <dgd...@worldnet.att.invalid> wrote in message
news:qR3fc.28620$i74.5...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
thats two for the massive slaughter of baby seals, skinned alive!
congrats. how proud you must be.
s
>
oshuns
oh...and btw...you dont know a thing about me or my motivations. you dont
know what i studied in school, you dont know what im passionate about, you
don tknow where ive worked...you dont know when im flip. i havent eaten a
single fish in more than ten years...what have you done to preserve fish
stocks? i choose not to support a system of depletion...what do you do
about it? you want to make this personal? what do you know about the center
for marine conservation? ever contribute? how about to the world wildlife
fund?
cute or not cute has nothing to do with it.
someone goes and tortures a person or animal of any kind, and my heart
aches.
question that, judge me, analyze what i wear and what i do...i dont care.
doesnt change a thing about me.
http://www.ifaw.org/ifaw/general/default.aspx?oid=21446
s
karen
>
> thats two for the massive slaughter of baby seals, skinned alive!
> congrats. how proud you must be.
>
skinned alive so they dont chance messing up the fur im guessing.
this kind of thing has been going on for WAY too long.
i remember many years ago when i was pregnant with my now 18 year old
daughter,
my sister and were supporting the effort in trying to stop the batbashing of
seals. we bought save the seals tee shirts, stuffed animals (which i still
have) etc. and the money went towards the efforts.
its hard to believe that almost 20 fucking years later this is still going
on.
fucking disgusting to say the least.
its amazing and very disturbing how humans act.
sometimes/many times i feel ashamed to belong to the human race
Mirella
So do I. But about the seal hunting. Aren't Norway, Japan and Canada the only
'stubborn' countries left that still do that?
karen
>
> So do I. But about the seal hunting. Aren't Norway, Japan and Canada the
only
> 'stubborn' countries left that still do that?
>
i dont know.
a while back i watched this show that showed how in japan (i think) do dogs
kind of
like they do seals.
except they kept them all in dark basements, shit all over the floor, sick
,dead etc. until it was their time to be skinned.
they would kill them in the most inhumane ways in order to not mess up the
fur.
theyd walk up open the door and some of the dogs would actually shyly wag
their tail, i guess in hope, then the maniacs would grab them, chain them
around the neck, then to a post so tight the dog would start gasping etc and
carefully start to slice them on the inside of the hind legs, this way most
the blood would drain out in a weay as to not mess up the fur. its shocking
how long a dog will live while bleeding to death by being skinned
karen
>
> cute or not cute has nothing to do with it.
> someone goes and tortures a person or animal of any kind, and my heart
> aches.
> question that, judge me, analyze what i wear and what i do...i dont care.
> doesnt change a thing about me.
>
> http://www.ifaw.org/ifaw/general/default.aspx?oid=21446
>
exactly. and too bad there arent more people like you in the sad, sad world
Mirella
>
>>
>> So do I. But about the seal hunting. Aren't Norway, Japan and Canada the
>only
>> 'stubborn' countries left that still do that?
>>
>
>i dont know.
>a while back i watched this show that showed how in japan (i think) do dogs
>kind of
>like they do seals.
>except they kept them all in dark basements, shit all over the floor, sick
>,dead etc. until it was their time to be skinned.
>they would kill them in the most inhumane ways in order to not mess up the
>fur.
I think that was Korea (north or south I don't know). They are cruel because
they think that makes the meat taste better :(
>theyd walk up open the door and some of the dogs would actually shyly wag
>their tail, i guess in hope, then the maniacs would grab them, chain them
>around the neck, then to a post so tight the dog would start gasping etc and
>carefully start to slice them on the inside of the hind legs, this way most
>the blood would drain out in a weay as to not mess up the fur. its shocking
>how long a dog will live while bleeding to death by being skinned
....
groetjes,
Mirella :|
karen
>
> I think that was Korea (north or south I don't know). They are cruel
because
> they think that makes the meat taste better :(
>
>
i dont know about the meat thing, but i do know they did what i saw for the
fur. people were wearing dog fur coats etc. even here in the states tons of
items were being sold made out of dog hair.
so many dogs are put to death yearly because of people not caring, to make
use of them i suppose wouldnt be such a bad thing if it were done in a human
fashion. not that i'd wear dead animal of any kind, im just saying...
my main problem with the slaughter of animals is the inhumane ways its done
and the inhumane conditions many have to live in before the killings.
i do have other problems with it, but that is a main concern
karen
< not that i'd wear dead animal of any kind, im just saying...>
correction, i am guilty of owning a pair or two of leather shoes throughout
the years
Vin
>the canadian government publicly announced the seal massacre in november
>2003 or thereabouts. i didnt hear about in the media until this past week's
>montreal mirror or hour, and had i not read it there i STILL wouldnt know
>about it. this is a current happening that needs to be stopped.
the seal hunt has happened EVERY YEAR for HUNDREDS of years, nothing
has changed this year except the quota was raised to 350,000 from
300,000 due to the over abundant seal population. there are seal quotas
like there are cod quotas like there are lobster quotas, like there
are moose and deer quotas, like there are quotas for EVERY ANIMAL,
the government allows people to kill the maximum amount of animals
on an annual basis so long as it doesn't threaten the sustainability
of the species. some years there are too many deer, so they increase
the quota or issue more permits..
>either do what you can to stop this, or enjoy living your life of doing
>absolutely nothing to prevent or stop this kind of thing. the torturous
>deaths of animals might be ok with you, but dont do nothing and take it out
>on me that youre a miserable human being here for himself and absolutely
>noone or nothing else.
yes you're such a saint for the rights of animals, lets see how many
threads you made about the hundreds of other animals that are endangered
but still continue to be slaughtered... 0. threads about animals that
are nowhere near endangered but happen to be cute... 1.
>you are unbelievable vin. only you would attempt a smear campaign on
>someone who wanted to bring it to the attention of others who might be
>interested that our government is responsible for whats going on here. and
>its not the first time either. you live and love to piss on sunshine.
>youre disgusting.
i'm not smearing anything, i'm presenting you with the FACTS and you
don't like them because everytime you open your mouth you say something
thats totally incorrect.
>yep, one million in three years. numbers have never been my strong suit.
>its ok vin, support our government's decision. and try to bring down anyone
>who tries to stop it.
>please...never procreate.
>
>s
you've called me names, you've judged me, you've insulted me for what
i've said in this post, you've implied that you're better than me because
you care about the seals, and all i've done is present you with the
facts and given my observations on your probable motivations.. all you've
done is post a bunch of lies, insults and senseless emotional babbling.
for the record i never ONCE said i was for the seal hunt, all i
did was point out that there is nothing special about this seal
hunt other than the fact that these animals are probably as cute
as it gets, which is the main reason the seals have always gotten
so much attention, its easy to get people like you going. again
where were you during the recent codfish crisis? exactly. the
reality is, whats happening with the seals is extremely common
meanwhile there are hundreds of species much much more in need of
attention that will never get it. if you care so much about animals
do yourself a favor and do some real reading, not just peta propaganda.
and you might wanna consider not wearing leather..
karen
< if you care so much about animals
> do yourself a favor and do some real reading, not just peta propaganda.
>
just because somebody speaks out about one thing doesnt mean they dont care
and or support other causes.
Vin
>'stubborn' countries left that still do that?
>
>groetjes,
>Mirella :)
actually its canada, greenland, iceland, norway and russia. not three
stubborn holdouts, but five, 5 out of 192. boy that tells you something,
what does it tell you? it should tell you absolutely nothing, see,
99.9% of the worlds harp seal population lies off the coasts of those
five countries, the other 187 countries don't hunt harp seal because
they don't have any harp seal to hunt.
karen
about anything
"karen" <kdoe...@satx.rr.com> wrote in message
news:hncfc.1480$lp3...@fe2.texas.rr.com...
Vin
>single fish in more than ten years...what have you done to preserve fish
>stocks? i choose not to support a system of depletion...what do you do
>about it?
well we don't go around grandstanding and making ourselves out to be
better than others either.. i have never willingly eaten fish in my
entire life and haven't eaten any other than the odd lobster in ten
years so i guess i'm as special as you. i've never owned fur and i've
never purchased anything with leather in it in my life. now if i were
you i guess i'd say something like:
'so that makes me better than you. i can't believe you support the
slaughter of animals for your own personal cosmetic needs, you don't
agree with killing an animal for food but its ok if you kill an animal
to make nice shoes. you sicken me, i hope you never procreate.
oh lord save the seals!!!! i can't sleep at night its pains me so'
Maxime
"Mirella" <mire...@chello.nl> a écrit dans le message de
news:01kn70pn1crcjbdja...@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 12 Apr 2004 19:52:05 -0400, "oshuns" <osh...@videotron.ca> wrote:
>
> >i could vomit.
> >
> >i read about this in the free weekly this week...until then i hadnt
heard:
> >the canadian government is allowing the slaughter of over 3 million baby
> >seals over the next three years.
>
> It's all over the news here in the Netherlands too. At least beating them
to
> death is forbidden now... Bloody pictures were shown :(.
> It's sad: the people hunting do it out of poverty and the seals are blamed
for
> the lack of fish (because they eat...).
> The people responsable for this should burn in hell. Too bad I don't
believe in
> hell.
> I did not want to post about it, being Dutch and not Canadian (like
posting
> about Bush always triggers the 'you are anti-american' messages), but I'm
glad
> you did. Thanks.
>
> groetjes,
> Mirella :)
Matsmaniac
> i could vomit.
You should read about what the state of Maryland has in store for
their 550 or so remaining bears. Ugly.
DGDevin
>
> thats two for the massive slaughter of baby seals, skinned alive!
> congrats. how proud you must be.
I begin to suspect you don't actually give a crap about those seals, it's
just what you've chosen to rant about this month, something to argue about
without actually being interested in the subject at all, and that makes you
just a troll, really.
karen
>
> I begin to suspect you don't actually give a crap about those seals, it's
> just what you've chosen to rant about this month, something to argue about
> without actually being interested in the subject at all, and that makes
you
> just a troll, really.
>
>
\how fucking dumb
Sigvaldi Eggertsson
Iceland does not hunt any seals.
oshuns
Matsmaniac <malp...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:25d0597c.04041...@posting.google.com...
so their solution to the human-bear conflict is killing the bears and
potentially removing their natural existence in the state.
feels so manly when armed....
may karma gets all these decision makers.
s
oshuns
DGDevin <dgd...@worldnet.att.invalid> wrote in message
whatever you say, bud.
s
>
Vin
>> stubborn holdouts, but five, 5 out of 192. boy that tells you something,
>> what does it tell you? it should tell you absolutely nothing, see,
>> 99.9% of the worlds harp seal population lies off the coasts of those
>> five countries, the other 187 countries don't hunt harp seal because
>> they don't have any harp seal to hunt.
>
>Iceland does not hunt any seals.
hunting seals is prohibited in iceland? i can't find anything to
support this, hell iceland even has state sponsored whale hunts..
oshuns
Vin <i...@like.snow> wrote in message
how long till canada gets on board for that too...
s
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
DGDevin
>
>
> whatever you say, bud.
A) You ain't my bud
B) You argue like someone with a couple of screws loose, so either you're a
bit of a wingnut or you just like to wind people up, the choice between a
nutcase and a troll I'll leave up to you.
DGDevin
>
> \how fucking dumb
If it comforts you to spit insults at someone who disagrees with you, fine,
but "oshuns" comes across like an angry child, making absurd claims that
don't stand up (like Atlantic cod are in no danger, right) and smearing
anyone who doesn't instantly agree with him as some kind of seal-torturing
monster. That's either a troll trying to string people along, or a looney,
in either case not someone worth discussing the matter with.
karen
> If it comforts you to spit insults at someone who disagrees with you,
fine,>
no, it doesnt comfort me, in this case anyway:)
i just thought your comment was rude and way off, and some of vins have
been too.
if you two think steph brought this up to look great or whatever and she
really doesnt care,
y'all are way off base on this one. guess that brings vin down to the 97%
mark now(hehe).
and frankly, i find what yall have said about her on this subject to be very
stupid
oshuns
DGDevin <dgd...@worldnet.att.invalid> wrote in message
or someone who wanted anyone who might be shocked and appalled at the
canadian goverments move to allow inhumane slaughter of one million baby
seals to be able to have an outlet to voice up against it.
and if so, check http://www.ifaw.org/ifaw/general/default.aspx?oid=85390
there was no argument, except from you and vin, and you can really bring
that to your shrinks, ive no interest.
s
>
oshuns
you mean him kar.
hehe
s
>
>
>
>
>
>
Saerah
oshuns wrote in message ...
>
>DGDevin <dgd...@worldnet.att.invalid> wrote in message
>news:Vyofc.32235$i74.7...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>> "oshuns" <osh...@videotron.ca> wrote in message
>> news:c5kccp$2nlae$1...@ID-186366.news.uni-berlin.de...
>> >
>> >
>> > whatever you say, bud.
>>
>> A) You ain't my bud
>>
>> B) You argue like someone with a couple of screws loose, so either
you're
>a
>> bit of a wingnut or you just like to wind people up, the choice between a
>> nutcase and a troll I'll leave up to you.
>>
>
>or someone who wanted anyone who might be shocked and appalled at the
>canadian goverments move to allow inhumane slaughter of one million baby
>seals to be able to have an outlet to voice up against it.
what about the inhumane slaughter of the millions of animals that are killed
for food?
DGDevin
news:407ee...@127.0.0.1...
>
> what about the inhumane slaughter of the millions of animals that are
killed
> for food?
Ah, but they aren't all cuddly with big eyes, and they aren't killed on TV.
If harp seals looked like spiders nobody would give a shit, but they look
like puppies, so the same folks who could care less about a steer getting
its skull cracked in a slaighterhouse wet their pants over those adorable
seals.
karen
not so cute things are included on that list) that are defenseless and
helpless.
i just cant believe some of these reactions.
jesus
"DGDevin" <dgd...@worldnet.att.invalid> wrote in message
news:nrCfc.34570$i74.7...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
karen
> she has made it clear how she feels about all animals/humans (and im sure
> not so cute things are included on that list) that are defenseless and
> helpless.>>
and being treated inhumanely.
not that she cant take up for herself...its just i can no longer shut up
about it
oshuns
> >
> >DGDevin <dgd...@worldnet.att.invalid> wrote in message
> >news:Vyofc.32235$i74.7...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> >> "oshuns" <osh...@videotron.ca> wrote in message
> >> news:c5kccp$2nlae$1...@ID-186366.news.uni-berlin.de...
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > whatever you say, bud.
> >>
> >> A) You ain't my bud
> >>
> >> B) You argue like someone with a couple of screws loose, so either
> you're
> >a
> >> bit of a wingnut or you just like to wind people up, the choice between
a
> >> nutcase and a troll I'll leave up to you.
> >>
> >
> >or someone who wanted anyone who might be shocked and appalled at the
> >canadian goverments move to allow inhumane slaughter of one million baby
> >seals to be able to have an outlet to voice up against it.
>
>
> what about the inhumane slaughter of the millions of animals that are
killed
> for food?
what about it? on the news today they are doing a story about how canadian
standards for 'clean' meat are being ignored, alongside rules for humane
killing. hehe humane killing, thats rich. im glad im vegetarian. others
might want to consider this too, it seems carcasses with rabies and
melanomas are being stamped for approval for consumption round these parts.
but to each their own. i felt moved by disgust and horror and compassion to
post a link to help the seals whose slaughter began monday. saerah, if you
arent moved by that, but are moved by the animals being killed for food in
inhumane ways, well...do what you can or want to to stop it.
s
oshuns
> not so cute things are included on that list) that are defenseless and
> helpless.
> i just cant believe some of these reactions.
> jesus
i know.
joemono might be right to be concerned about people first.
karen
"oshuns" <osh...@videotron.ca> wrote in message
news:c5n1mr$3ied1$1...@ID-186366.news.uni-berlin.de...
Saerah
im pretty much disgusted by everything these days. what i do not understand
is why you are more disgusted by the killingof one animal than another. that
makes no sense to me.
--
Saerah
TANSTAAFL
"I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma
that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it
had an underlying truth."
"Strange women lying in ponds distributing
swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive
power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some
farcical aquatic ceremony."
oshuns
its funny that it makes no sense to you because YOU are the one who came to
that conclusion of your own regard...as i certainly never made any such
claim. its a ridiculous and immensely offensive suggestion that i take
rather personally, saerah. i am for the ethical treatment of ALL
animals....D-U-H.
what disgusts me is the CANADIAN GOVERNMENTS APPROVAL OF ONE MILLION SEAL
DEATHS OVER THREE YEARS WITH ABSOLUTELY NO ENFORCEMENT OF HUMANE KILLING
RULES. they opened the seal hunt this past monday, with very little media
coverage. i was trying to spread the word. since when does that mean i
dont care about other animals? that kind of logic (and total lack thereof)
that youve exposed here...that makes no sense to *me*.
s
Jett Karma
>
>oshuns wrote in message ...
>>
>>DGDevin <dgd...@worldnet.att.invalid> wrote in message
>>news:Vyofc.32235$i74.7...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>>> "oshuns" <osh...@videotron.ca> wrote in message
>>> news:c5kccp$2nlae$1...@ID-186366.news.uni-berlin.de...
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > whatever you say, bud.
>>>
>>> A) You ain't my bud
>>>
>>> B) You argue like someone with a couple of screws loose, so either
>you're
>>a
>>> bit of a wingnut or you just like to wind people up, the choice between a
>>> nutcase and a troll I'll leave up to you.
>>>
>>
>>or someone who wanted anyone who might be shocked and appalled at the
>>canadian goverments move to allow inhumane slaughter of one million baby
>>seals to be able to have an outlet to voice up against it.
>
>
>what about the inhumane slaughter of the millions of animals that are killed
>for food?
>
>********************************************************************************************
This is a far bigger concern to me than seals. I'm not saying I don't
think the killing of seals is problematic, but I think the way food
animals are treated institutionally is worse. When you think about
the way veal or pork (baby cows and pigs) are "grown", it's truly
disgusting--infliction of life-long suffering followed by a wretched
end. At least the baby seals have some sort of life outside a torture
chamber before their deaths. Which, imho, doesn't make the killing of
them any more pristine. It's just that on the "where does it
rank"--there are worse. Unfortunately.
--Jett
DGDevin
>
>i was trying to spread the word. since when does that mean i
> dont care about other animals? that kind of logic (and total lack
thereof)
> that youve exposed here...that makes no sense to *me*.
I'll tell you what, if you *really* want to do something about it, we'll
take up a collection and buy you a ticket, get you a motel room and
everything, some warm clothes, and you can head out onto the ice with a
protest sign and some pepper spray or something and stop those nasty native
persons from earning money to support your families. Of course, there's
always the possibility that one of them is going to knock you on your butt,
or better yet through into a hole in the ice, but that's the chance you take
when you actually do something you claim to believe in as opposed to just
talk about it.
DGDevin
> we are one fucked up bunch!
Self-loathing, that figures.
oshuns
DGDevin <dgd...@worldnet.att.invalid> wrote in message
actually i brought that petition to the attention of several people who were
happy to sign it, as was i. thats more than just talk, thats something more
than nothing.
but if you want to send me on a trip go ahead with your collection, that
would be awesome.
s
>
rerun
"DGDevin" <dgd...@worldnet.att.invalid> wrote in message
Give her a break. She signed a petition and whined on usenet. The seals
have nothing to worry about.
JumpinJack
> someone goes and tortures a person or animal of any kind, and my heart
> aches.
>
Maybe it's because I'm "persona non grata" here, but when I posted an
outraged opinion about four American human beings that were beaten to
death, burned beyond recognition and mutilated, all I got was a ration
of shit and some inquiries about their wages.
The lack of sympathy and/or concern from the members of this group left
me cold.
--
JJ...
Ft. Bragg, NC
Jett Karma
***********************************************************
Well, you know, war is hell. It's terrible that four human beings got
killed. But, it's a war, and they were mercenaries. They put their lives
on the line for cash. I'm not saying it's wrong; I'm saying they took
their chances. They knew what they were doing. Sometimes you get lucky,
sometimes you don't. The way the news broke over here, these were four
"contractors" who innocently lost their lives. They weren't exactly
"contractors" over there to fix water systems--they were private soldiers.
Terrible, but hundreds and hundreds of soldiers have died in Iraq
already--idealistic, courageous, and earnest young men and women who aren't
in Iraq because it's lucrative for them personally. Excuse me if I don't
shed a tear over someone fighting an enemy for personal gain--I simply have
more sympathy for those who are doing from the heart for their country.
Where's the outrage over 600 dead American patriots?
--Jett
DGDevin
news:1080l93...@news.supernews.com...
>
> Give her a break. She signed a petition and whined on usenet. The seals
> have nothing to worry about.
I suppose you're right, if Bridgitte Bardot couldn't stop the seal hunt,
after she stopped wearing fur I mean, then what chance do our crew of online
missionaries have?
JumpinJack
> ***********************************************************
> Well, you know, war is hell. It's terrible that four human beings got
> killed. But, it's a war, and they were mercenaries. They put their
> lives on the line for cash. I'm not saying it's wrong; I'm saying
> they took their chances. They knew what they were doing. Sometimes
> you get lucky, sometimes you don't. The way the news broke over here,
> these were four "contractors" who innocently lost their lives. They
> weren't exactly "contractors" over there to fix water systems--they
> were private soldiers. Terrible, but hundreds and hundreds of soldiers
> have died in Iraq already--idealistic, courageous, and earnest young
> men and women who aren't in Iraq because it's lucrative for them
> personally. Excuse me if I don't shed a tear over someone fighting an
> enemy for personal gain--I simply have more sympathy for those who are
> doing from the heart for their country. Where's the outrage over 600
> dead American patriots?
>
> --Jett
>
Nice eulogy. I'm sure their families would have loved to hear that at
their funerals.
I hope you are not insinuating that I'm indifferent to the deaths of
my fellow soldiers in Iraq.
MyDaydream
their funerals.>>>
Regardless, it was the truth.
There is a lot of people dying horrible and unecessary deaths in the world
today who didn't choose to go to a war zone. Who are being killed because they
believe the wrong god, are the wrong color, or live in the wrong place. Are
you weeping for them?
--
CjS ""
Laurie Hester
Jack, Jack, Jack... don't you know that talking about any current
event having to do with Iraq, Bush, the election or politics is
*ruining* the newsgroup, but having pointless, endless arguments
between two people on the subject of TV, movies or vegetarianism is
*good* for the newsgroup?
And you make a good point. When people can get upset over animals
being treated inhumanely but not humans, it's a sad, sad day. After
all, when humans are being treated "inhumanely" and that is accepted,
then the very word "inhumanely" becomes meaningless.
I suspect you and I would differ greatly on our reactions to the event
you refer to, but nonetheless, in the grand scheme of things, I do
wish people would get upset about 20,000 innocent humans dying in
unnecessary wars as much as some people get upset about animals dying.
Perhaps we should make it mandatory that the body bags are shown as
interruptions to "The Apprentice", "The Bachelor", "Survivor", etc.
Don't get me wrong... wiping out species will ultimately result in
wiping out our own, so it's important to get on the "No CARB" diet
soon... (Cheney, Ashcroft, Rumsfeld, Bush)
Laurie
Jett Karma
>********************************************************************************
I didn't write it to be read at their funerals; I wrote it to rebut
your propaganda.
>I hope you are not insinuating that I'm indifferent to the deaths of
>my fellow soldiers in Iraq.
************************************************************************************
They're dead. They were mercenaries. They did it for cash, not for
love for love of country. I'm sorry when anyone dies; their families
will be infinitely sorrier than I--I didn't know them. However, to
carry on as if they were doing anything other than a very dangerous
job for remuneration, which they knew entailed the very real risk of
death, is, imho, is just to use their deaths for a political
aim--something which I am against. So, again, if I don't shed too
many tears, oh well. I simply happen to value the contribution of our
service men and women far more than I value the contributions of
people who were over there for bigger money than our own service
people see for taking the same risks.
You seem to be very concerned about the deaths of these four
mercenaries, but I haven't heard you say much about those who serve
our country instead of their own personal financial interests.
--Jett
JumpinJack
>>
>>Nice eulogy. I'm sure their families would have loved to hear that at
>>their funerals.
>>***********************************************************************
>>*********
> I didn't write it to be read at their funerals; I wrote it to rebut
> your propaganda.
>
>>I hope you are not insinuating that I'm indifferent to the deaths of
>>my fellow soldiers in Iraq.
>
> ***********************************************************************
> ************* They're dead. They were mercenaries. They did it for
> cash, not for love for love of country. I'm sorry when anyone dies;
> their families will be infinitely sorrier than I--I didn't know them.
> However, to carry on as if they were doing anything other than a very
> dangerous job for remuneration, which they knew entailed the very real
> risk of death, is, imho, is just to use their deaths for a political
> aim--something which I am against. So, again, if I don't shed too
> many tears, oh well. I simply happen to value the contribution of our
> service men and women far more than I value the contributions of
> people who were over there for bigger money than our own service
> people see for taking the same risks.
>
> You seem to be very concerned about the deaths of these four
> mercenaries, but I haven't heard you say much about those who serve
> our country instead of their own personal financial interests.
>
> --Jett
>
>
Jett, I understood you the first time. Maybe I'm not making myself clear.
I was responding to Oshun's comment: "someone goes and tortures a person
or animal of any kind, and my heart aches."
Well there were four "persons" brutally tortured to death and not one
comment from anyone about the inhumanity of it. Seals apparently elicit
more sympathy than humans.
As for your comments: "Where's the outrage over 600 dead American
patriots?" and "I haven't heard you say much about those who serve
our country instead of their own personal financial interests".
Well, that's what I meant when I said:
"I hope you are not insinuating that I'm indifferent to the deaths of
my fellow soldiers in Iraq."
I'm beyond belief that you would suggest I lack any feeling for my
military brothers and sisters in service. That's about all I have
written about lately. I have been involved with the military as an
enlisted man and as a civilian for the last 25 years.
I don't want to attend any more memorial services. "Taps" makes my
heart ache and brings tears to my eyes.
BTW, just for the record, the sight of seals being clubbed to death
gives me the chills.
JumpinJack
Don't make me laugh, Chris. I read enough of your opinions to know better.
So now you are "Mr. Humanity" fighting for justice? Gimme a break.
oshuns
if youd read enough of his opinions to know better, how come you dont know
better than to think his name is chris?
s
karen
> I was responding to Oshun's comment: "someone goes and tortures a person
> or animal of any kind, and my heart aches."
>
isnt there a difference in between somebody that knowingly puts theirself in
that situation
and somebody that didnt?
JumpinJack
>
> if youd read enough of his opinions to know better, how come you dont
> know better than to think his name is chris?
>
> s
>
When you are right, you are right. Lack of sleep, whatever.
I meant "Carl" as in: http://humanpettingzoo.blogspot.com/
MyDaydream
Really? All i said was i could care less about 4 dead mercenaries. I stand by
that.
I prefer peace to war. I prefer defense to invasion. I prefer a policy of non
intrusion as opposed to protecting the interests of the rich over seas with the
expense of poor and middle class human lives.
--
CjS ""
Jett Karma
>*******************************************************************
I'm not sure I read you the first time; I saw your follow up comment.
>I was responding to Oshun's comment: "someone goes and tortures a person
>or animal of any kind, and my heart aches."
>
>Well there were four "persons" brutally tortured to death and not one
>comment from anyone about the inhumanity of it. Seals apparently elicit
>more sympathy than humans.
>*****************************************************************************************
Seals elicit more sympathy because you want to read it that way.
That's not what she said. It seems to me that you're spoiling for a
flame war where someone can be the bad guy to your good guy. That is
my impression of you at the moment. Why not berate her for going on
about seals and not saying a thing about the number of people killed
in the U.S. via handguns that same day? There's a reason. :) You
want to make something of it.
>As for your comments: "Where's the outrage over 600 dead American
>patriots?" and "I haven't heard you say much about those who serve
>our country instead of their own personal financial interests".
>
>Well, that's what I meant when I said:
>
>"I hope you are not insinuating that I'm indifferent to the deaths of
>my fellow soldiers in Iraq."
>*********************************************************************************
Well, good.
>I'm beyond belief that you would suggest I lack any feeling for my
>military brothers and sisters in service. That's about all I have
>written about lately. I have been involved with the military as an
>enlisted man and as a civilian for the last 25 years.
>**************************************************************************************
Well, it's just a little odd that you'd go on about the deaths of four
"contractors" and say nothing, really, except in defense about the
deaths of 600 actual service people.
>I don't want to attend any more memorial services. "Taps" makes my
>heart ache and brings tears to my eyes.
>************************************************************************************
It will always do the same to me. My family was military all the way;
I currently work with and for military families right now.
>BTW, just for the record, the sight of seals being clubbed to death
>gives me the chills.
************************************************************************************
I've never seen it; I'm sure it would make me sick. Many things on
this earth would have that effect.
--Jett
Jett Karma
***********************************************************************************************
Whether he's Mr. Humanity or not, he makes an excellent point.
--Jett
JumpinJack
>
> isnt there a difference in between somebody that knowingly puts
> theirself in that situation
> and somebody that didnt?
>
Karen, you are one of the few here that I do not want to create
bad feelings with.
I think you are talking about the contractors as opposed to the
soldiers. Yes?
I agree with you. There is a difference. But that is a subject that
can turn hot very fast. The term "mercenary" carries a negative
conotation which, I don't think should be applied to those men and
should be discussed in it's own thread.
My original comment to this thread was to point out how the seal
issue generated more sympathy here than the barbaric killings of
the contractors. (none)
Regardless of a persons political leanings, how could any one watch
those horrible scenes and not feel some indignation?
I think apocalyptic terrorists should be killed. But, if Americans
did the same to the dead bodies of those terrorists, then those
Americans should be dealt with as criminals.
karen
> karen wrote:
>
> >
> > isnt there a difference in between somebody that knowingly puts
> > theirself in that situation
> > and somebody that didnt?
> >
>
> Karen, you are one of the few here that I do not want to create
> bad feelings with.
>
thats sweet, thanks:)
> I think you are talking about the contractors as opposed to the
> soldiers. Yes?
>
to be totally honest i havent kept up with all the political stuff hardly
at all.
i have read enough to come to the conclusion that the people you are talking
about are people
that went there knowing how dangerous it is but did so because there are big
bucks to be made. please,
correct me if im wrong.
> I agree with you. There is a difference. But that is a subject that
> can turn hot very fast. The term "mercenary" carries a negative
> conotation which, I don't think should be applied to those men and
> should be discussed in it's own thread.
>
> My original comment to this thread was to point out how the seal
> issue generated more sympathy here than the barbaric killings of
> the contractors. (none)
>
> Regardless of a persons political leanings, how could any one watch
> those horrible scenes and not feel some indignation?
i didnt watch the scenes. but again, from my understanding they chose to be
there for pay, right?
dont get me wrong, that doesnt make it ok.
but for me, when somebody knowingly chooses to put their life at great risk
and gets killed it has
a different impact on me than somebody that didnt have anything to do with
bringing the killing onto theirself.
yes, its an outrage how it was done, and im sorry about the terrible things
that are going on everywhere.
and i appreciate all the men and women that put their life on the line for
others
> I think apocalyptic terrorists should be killed. But, if Americans
> did the same to the dead bodies of those terrorists, then those
> Americans should be dealt with as criminals.
>
yes, its disgusting. war is disgusting
JumpinJack
<snipped for brevity>
> Seals elicit more sympathy because you want to read it that way.
I went back and counted. Three for the seals and zero for the humans.
> It seems to me that you're spoiling for a
> flame war where someone can be the bad guy to your good guy. That is
> my impression of you at the moment.
Damn, Jett. I hate flame wars. If by airing an opinion to someone's post
is "spoiling for a flame war", then are all YOUR posted opinions doing
that also? That's a rhetorical question. I don't think they are. You read
something that strikes a nerve and respond, just like me. I just find it
curious as to why I'm the only one you responded to when others were flat
out rude to Oshuns.
>
> Why not berate her for going on
> about seals and not saying a thing about the number of people killed
> in the U.S. via handguns that same day? There's a reason. :) You
> want to make something of it.
>
1. backtrack: I never berated Oshuns for anything.
2. seals VS hangun deaths was not the point I wanted to make. If that's a
point YOU want to make, go right ahead.
3. The only point I "wanted to make something of" was that more people
(three) in this group sympathized with brutally murdered seals than
sympathized with brutally murdered humans (zero).
<snipped for brevity>
MyDaydream
issue generated more sympathy here than the barbaric killings of
the contractors. (none)
Regardless of a persons political leanings, how could any one watch
those horrible scenes and not feel some indignation?>>>
Really... i dont remember a whole lot of people getting too into the seals.
Maybe though... and im just theorizing here... people might empathize with the
seals (or animals in general) since they are just innocent animals going about
their lives routines. Not trained killers who made a wrong turn at
albuquerque.
Maybe my indignation is felt for the deaths of those who's lives were wasted
(both american and Iraqi) so a president could settle a family score. Also,
for the civilian deaths as well. Can you feel indignation for the deaths of
people not from your country? Do you feel it for civilians being killed and
taken advantage of because the army didnt plan properly to occupy the country?
See it's hard for me to see those lines clearly... i see innocents and i see
killers in this world. No more no less. The flags, uniforms, borders,
religious beliefs, etc etc mean nothing to me. I hate saddam hussein, i hate
osama bin laden, and i hate dubbya with equal disdain.
--
CjS ""
oshuns
> issue generated more sympathy here than the barbaric killings of
> the contractors. (none)
actually, the issue of the canadian governments decision to allow the mass
slaughter of baby seals with no enforcement of code regulations elicited
very little sympathy here. it wasnt meant to either, it was just a call to
information and action. the majority reaction was negative. so...your
original comment was misplaced.
and again, how does attempting to spread the word about seals mean that
someone doesnt care about human life? its demented logic.
s
JumpinJack
>
> actually, the issue of the canadian governments decision to allow the
> mass slaughter of baby seals with no enforcement of code regulations
> elicited very little sympathy here. it wasnt meant to either, it was
> just a call to information and action. the majority reaction was
> negative. so...your original comment was misplaced.
>
I'm sorry if you took my comments as a personal attack. As I said to
Jett we see something that strikes a nerve and react. As this thread
unfolded, I found myself sympathizing more with you because of the
negative comments. I'm wrapped up in my reality lately which is because
of my military friends and aquaintences coming and going to hot spots
around the world.
> and again, how does attempting to spread the word about seals mean
> that someone doesnt care about human life? its demented logic.
>
It doesn't. And I would assume that you DO care about human life.
My only issue was that seals (or animals) generated more sympathy
in this group than the contractors. It was not much, (3 for the
seals and zero for the contractors)
MyDaydream
and aquaintences coming and going to hot spots around the world.>>>
I understand your emotion when it comes to your comrades. Still, is it
possible for someone to have an opinion that is against the govt, against the
way the govt is using the lives of it's soldiers without in your view being
against the troops.? I don't live in a military area like you so i assume your
more in tune with the attitudes of the every day military person. However, of
the 3 that i have talked to since returning, all of them expressed serious
reservations towards the war in iraq almost to the point of being against it.
I don't doubt for one second that they are fully behind their brothers and
sisters that they served with.
On a sort of related note i was really surprised to hear these views on the
war. My cousin is seriously dating a man who had returned from Iraq in Nov.
She brought him to thanksgiving dinner, and i was forewarned by my family (it
wasn't necessary) to not even bring up politics. Well to my surprise the guy
brought up the war himself and he was completely against it. He also said a
lot of guys from his unit felt the same way. They would have rather been in
afghanistan than Iraq. He said that when your there you try to just do your
job the way you are trained to.. you don't question the reasons because you
dont have time. "Breaking concentration" he said, "is something you can't
afford to do." I told him how i felt about the war, and he never said once that
my opinions suggested any lack of support for the troops. So, imo, it's ok to
question the govt's use of the troops. To blindly follow the misues of them,
whether it would help morale or not, would be an injustice to their lives.
To answer your opinions on me... I dont hate people jumpin jack. I love
people... but being the walking contradiction that i am. I hate society...
it's not a tough leap for me. You might not be ale to make it but i can quite
easily. I dont believe in america... i believe theres rich and poor and the
rich created this wonderful illusion of freedom and democracy to keep the
masses in line. Wars are generally fought to protect the insterests of the
power elite. The power elite will always find some moral issues (taxes,
slavery, communism etc) to use to rally the populous in support of war. There
is always a bit of hypocrisy in that. "We are liberating the people of iraq
from a brutal dictator." Saddam Hussein did what dictators do in countrys like
Iraq. Countrys where violence is needed to keep his enemies in line. Why
arent we in the Sudan right now trying to stop the genocide there? Why didn't
we go to Rwanda to stop the genocide there? Could it be the US had/has no
monetary interests in those countries? The basis behind attacking Iraq was
that they were supposedly a threat to us but its sort of become obvious that it
was a mis-truth. So it angers me... it angers me that american blood was
spilled in Iraq. It angers me that probably within a year of pulling out the
radicals will once again control the country. Vietnam fell in the same way.
Before you get mad at protestors you might want to redirect some fo that anger
towards the military misuse of funds. I have heard that our soldiers in Iraq
arent in many cases properly equipped. Yet we have the money to spend on
private mercenaries making 2k a day?
--
CjS ""
oshuns
sorry to hear youve got friends in dangerous situations...that sucks.
as for the human reaction to animals, i think most people have an innate
protective response to anything that cant defend itself. people are
hardened to other people, and are more desensitized to things that appear
commonly in headlines. that should not be interpreted as people not
caring...people just react in a different way. anything defenseless evokes
a stronger call to arms than something that can protect itself, imo.
s
karen
> sorry to hear youve got friends in dangerous situations...that sucks.
>
> as for the human reaction to animals, i think most people have an innate
> protective response to anything that cant defend itself. people are
> hardened to other people, and are more desensitized to things that appear
> commonly in headlines. that should not be interpreted as people not
> caring...people just react in a different way. anything defenseless
evokes
> a stronger call to arms than something that can protect itself, imo.
>
i'll second that
Jett Karma
>Jett Karma wrote:
>
><snipped for brevity>
>
>
>> Seals elicit more sympathy because you want to read it that way.
>
>I went back and counted. Three for the seals and zero for the humans.
>******************************************************************************************
Do you ever stop to think about context? Every day, in the
newspapers, you see another story....another American, another five
Americans, another two Americans killed in Iraq. You come in here.
You see lots of stories about Americans being killed in Iraq.
Then....you get one dead baby seal thread. Tell me truly, knowing
human nature....what's going to get the commentary going? Not the
dead people, but the dead seals. Dead people....they're everyday now.
Dead seals, not quite so been there done that.
>> It seems to me that you're spoiling for a
>> flame war where someone can be the bad guy to your good guy. That is
>> my impression of you at the moment.
>
>Damn, Jett. I hate flame wars.
<snipped for clarity>
>
>>****************************************************************************************
I have no idea why you were the only one that responded. Maybe you
actually read all of the thread and some of us didn't. I personally
didn't read the beginning of it. I don't think anyone should have
been rude to Steph. Senseless killing is senseless killing, and if
she's in a position to do something to lessen the suffering she's
interested in lessening, I respect her for it. I certainly haven't
given her any grief over the seals.
>> Why not berate her for going on
>> about seals and not saying a thing about the number of people killed
>> in the U.S. via handguns that same day? There's a reason. :) You
>> want to make something of it.
>>
>
>1. backtrack: I never berated Oshuns for anything.
>*****************************************************************************************
I have you confused with someone else, and I apologize for that. I
thought you were one of the "seal bashers." Sorry. Shows I shouldn't
respond to threads that I'm not too invested in.
>2. seals VS hangun deaths was not the point I wanted to make. If that's a
>point YOU want to make, go right ahead.
>*****************************************************************************************
The point I wanted to make is that you chose to go on about certain
deaths and ignore others.
>3. The only point I "wanted to make something of" was that more people
>(three) in this group sympathized with brutally murdered seals than
>sympathized with brutally murdered humans (zero).
>******************************************************************************************
And again, there's a reason for that. Saturation point. Seals are
not quite yet to that point on this ng. If we keep it up they will
be. Then, someone will get terribly upset that we get horribly
emotional over the killing of rattlesnakes (or whatever) and not over
the killing of some Americans--or the killing of seals.
And just for the record, since the people killed were soldiers for
pay, they weren't technically murdered. Killed in the course of duty,
yeah. But official participants in wars are not murdered. U.S.
soldiers are not murdering Iraquis. Iraquis are not murdering
soldiers.
And once again, there goes the spin toward making something of the
deaths of the four contractors that doesn't exist--with the primary
aim apparently the scoring of political points.
--Jett
Jett Karma
**************************************************************************************
I agree that you post got very little sympathy, and that instead, you
were pretty much flame broiled for having any sympathy yourself.
Also, I agree that it is demented thinking that if you have sympathy
for one thing that you therefore have no sympathy for another. It's
simply untrue, but it suits someone to try to paint you as feeling a
certain way.
--Jett
JumpinJack
Jett, political views aside, you have my respect. You are articulate,
inteligent, and sharp as a tack.
Jett Karma
when I do get a compliment on this group. >:)
--Jett
JumpinJack
>> <<< I'm wrapped up in my reality lately which is because of my
>> military friends and aquaintences coming and going to hot spots
>> around the world.>>>
>
> I understand your emotion when it comes to your comrades. Still, is
> it possible for someone to have an opinion that is against the govt,
> against the way the govt is using the lives of it's soldiers without
> in your view being against the troops.? I don't live in a military
> area like you so i assume your more in tune with the attitudes of the
> every day military person. However, of the 3 that i have talked to
> since returning, all of them expressed serious reservations towards
> the war in iraq almost to the point of being against it. I don't doubt
> for one second that they are fully behind their brothers and sisters
> that they served with.
>
I'll try to put a band-aid on the fucked up start I had with you.
Sure, you can have an opinion different from the Govt. and not be
against the troops. I work with, socialize with and live among
military people. It's hard to disconnect.
> On a sort of related note i was really surprised to hear these views
> on the war. My cousin is seriously dating a man who had returned from
> Iraq in Nov. She brought him to thanksgiving dinner, and i was
> forewarned by my family (it wasn't necessary) to not even bring up
> politics. Well to my surprise the guy brought up the war himself and
> he was completely against it. He also said a lot of guys from his
> unit felt the same way. They would have rather been in afghanistan
> than Iraq. He said that when your there you try to just do your job
> the way you are trained to.. you don't question the reasons because
> you dont have time. "Breaking concentration" he said, "is something
> you can't afford to do." I told him how i felt about the war, and he
> never said once that my opinions suggested any lack of support for the
> troops. So, imo, it's ok to question the govt's use of the troops.
> To blindly follow the misues of them, whether it would help morale or
> not, would be an injustice to their lives.
>
Soldiers are not automatons. They are people with differing opinions
like any other group of people. They also come in different flavors
with attitudes about each other that most civilians are not aware of.
From office workers and supply clerks (who usually work in the rear
safe jobs), to highly trained and motivated Special-Ops types. (who
do the actual fighting) You can write a book about that. Being a
former paratrooper my self, I tend to hang around with the latter
mostly. They have their feet on the ground and in the action. They
have more access to intel than most.
I have said before that I question the timing of our action in Iraq.
WMD or not, I still think we would have had to deal with them sooner
or later. This is my opinion formed from research and conversation with
people who should know. I do agree that we should have cleaned house in
Afghanistan first.
> To answer your opinions on me... I dont hate people jumpin jack. I
> love people... but being the walking contradiction that i am. I hate
> society... it's not a tough leap for me. You might not be ale to make
> it but i can quite easily. I dont believe in america... i believe
> theres rich and poor and the rich created this wonderful illusion of
> freedom and democracy to keep the masses in line. Wars are generally
> fought to protect the insterests of the power elite. The power elite
> will always find some moral issues (taxes, slavery, communism etc) to
> use to rally the populous in support of war. There is always a bit of
> hypocrisy in that. "We are liberating the people of iraq from a
> brutal dictator." Saddam Hussein did what dictators do in countrys
> like Iraq. Countrys where violence is needed to keep his enemies in
> line. Why arent we in the Sudan right now trying to stop the genocide
> there? Why didn't we go to Rwanda to stop the genocide there? Could
> it be the US had/has no monetary interests in those countries? The
> basis behind attacking Iraq was that they were supposedly a threat to
> us but its sort of become obvious that it was a mis-truth. So it
> angers me... it angers me that american blood was spilled in Iraq.
> It angers me that probably within a year of pulling out the radicals
> will once again control the country. Vietnam fell in the same way.
>
> Before you get mad at protestors you might want to redirect some of
> that anger towards the military misuse of funds. I have heard that
> our soldiers in Iraq arent in many cases properly equipped. Yet we
> have the money to spend on private mercenaries making 2k a day?
> --
> CjS ""
I don't mean to insult you but, you sound like me when I was about
twenty years old. (I'm 50 now) Maybe the Army changed (indoctrinated?)
me. but I believe in America. I love this country with all my soul.
I stop dead in my tracks and insist others do the same when the flag
is raised or lowered, and a good rendition of the Star Spangled Banner
at the Super Bowl usually brings a tear to my eye. Call it what you
will.
Then you have "Government". No govt. will ever be perfect. It's just
the simple rule of "you can't please all the people all the time".
You ask a lot of questions in those last two paragraphs that we could
sit down and discuss for many hours. Some good points. Some seem to me
to be black and white. Money will always wield influence. I don't think
we are in Iraq for money. (my opinion)
I'm too tired to write much more but, about the soldiers being properly
equipped, all wars and actions start out like that. I contributed to
body armor drives in the beginning until they started to get that problem
worked out. Who knew we would have to deal with roadside bombs like this?
I think I need a good camping trip to disconnect and get in touch with my
simpler Cro-Magnon alter ego.
Peace...
MyDaydream
like any other group of people. They also come in different flavors
with attitudes about each other that most civilians are not aware of.
From office workers and supply clerks (who usually work in the rear
safe jobs), to highly trained and motivated Special-Ops types. (who
do the actual fighting) You can write a book about that. Being a
former paratrooper my self, I tend to hang around with the latter
mostly. They have their feet on the ground and in the action. They
have more access to intel than most. >>>
I admittedly had a pre-conceived notion about hard core military types. When i
drove a bread truck in 02 i was trained by a not-active seal who was one of the
most interesting (and hyper active) people i ever met. He was out because he
was shot in the back in Kosovo. He spoke of the bond between him and his mates
as being close than what he had with his wife.
He also told me that he believed the govt had a pretty good idea that 911 would
happen and let it so they would have an excuse to go to war with the arabs. He
said when he became an inactive seal (he said your a seal for life) he had to
take classes for a month in a half about what he was and wasn't allowed to talk
about. He said he broke international law as a seal albeit he wasnt going into
details about it.
Almost everything he could talk about just confirmed what i already how F'ed up
the govt and our military is.
<<<I'm too tired to write much more but, about the soldiers being properly
equipped, all wars and actions start out like that. I contributed to body armor
drives in the beginning until they started to get that problem worked out. Who
knew we would have to deal with roadside bombs like this?>>>
My point is that in every conflict we have fought money is spent on expensive
and very minimally useful (but cool to watch on tv) technology isntead of
properly equipping
the everyday soldier. My dad who is practically a vietnam scholar has some
good books by Daniel Ellsburg (sp?) where he talks about the phenomenon at
length. Is corruption plain and simple.
<<<I don't mean to insult you but, you sound like me when I was about
twenty years old. (I'm 50 now) Maybe the Army changed (indoctrinated?)
me.>>>
Its not insulting to me at all. I just completely disagree with you. This is
why i tried not to get into an argument with you in the first place. Basically
i would be insulting your entire belief structure and when your that far apart
with someone from the baseline it's basically a pointless endeavor.
If you had an open mind i could reccomend some books to you that might blow
your doors off. If your rooted in your beliefs i can understand that.
Basically from the day your in kindergarten your indoctrinated with pro-usa
stuff. I didnt start to question things till i got older. Really though, if
you start to be honest with yourself and ask questions a lot of what you know
about this country... a lot about what is taught to you in history books makes
zero sense. I equate it to the the same point in my life (around 12 or 13) in
catholic school where all of a sudden my faith didnt make sense to me either.
The brain is a wonderful adaptive tool that allows you to fill in the gaps that
dont make sense.
and the last thing... wanting to disconnect and go to nature doesnt make you
cro-magnon. Like i said... society is fucked up and entirely un-natural. i
love to to do the same... hiking, fishing, camping. I feel very at peace when
im out in nature. Feel free to make any walt whitman jokes youd like.
--
CjS ""
Laurie Hester
> <<<Soldiers are not automatons. They are people with differing opinions
> like any other group of people. They also come in different flavors
> with attitudes about each other that most civilians are not aware of.
> From office workers and supply clerks (who usually work in the rear
> safe jobs), to highly trained and motivated Special-Ops types. (who
> do the actual fighting) You can write a book about that. Being a
> former paratrooper my self, I tend to hang around with the latter
> mostly. They have their feet on the ground and in the action. They
> have more access to intel than most. >>>
>
> I admittedly had a pre-conceived notion about hard core military types. When i
> drove a bread truck in 02 i was trained by a not-active seal who was one of the
> most interesting (and hyper active) people i ever met. He was out because he
> was shot in the back in Kosovo. He spoke of the bond between him and his mates
> as being close than what he had with his wife.
I experienced something similar... When I went to visit my parents in
Iran in 1977, I was all anti-Vietnam, hated the military, etc. A
friend of theirs set up a blind date for me and this other girl with
these two Marines. Somehow, the subject of Vietnam came up (I swear
it wasnt' me) and I asked them about MyLai where the soldiers had
killed women and children. THey explained to me that over there, the
women and children were killing GIs, and that there were no rules
anymore. That really had an effect on me and I realized that there
are no "rules of war" that make any sense. Why should our guys have
to follow these arbitrary rules when they are in a situation where the
enemy isn't?
>
> He also told me that he believed the govt had a pretty good idea that 911 would
> happen and let it so they would have an excuse to go to war with the arabs.
Careful... you are starting to sound like me...
> He
> said when he became an inactive seal (he said your a seal for life) he had to
> take classes for a month in a half about what he was and wasn't allowed to talk
> about. He said he broke international law as a seal albeit he wasnt going into
> details about it.
> Almost everything he could talk about just confirmed what i already how F'ed up
> the govt and our military is.
>
> <<<I'm too tired to write much more but, about the soldiers being properly
> equipped, all wars and actions start out like that. I contributed to body armor
> drives in the beginning until they started to get that problem worked out. Who
> knew we would have to deal with roadside bombs like this?>>>
>
> My point is that in every conflict we have fought money is spent on expensive
> and very minimally useful (but cool to watch on tv) technology isntead of
> properly equipping
> the everyday soldier. My dad who is practically a vietnam scholar has some
> good books by Daniel Ellsburg (sp?) where he talks about the phenomenon at
> length. Is corruption plain and simple.
It's what happens when you have military contractors in charge of the
government...
Laurie
David Stirling
thread. That, coupled with the fact that I'm top-posting will probably get
some interesting replies.
The Canadian seal hunt..what can I say. Well, I'm from Newfoundland, where
over 90% of the licenses for the seal are issued. I've seen the videos that
everybody has seen of the clubbing of the baby seal that gets played over
and over but the fact that people forget is that there were only a few
instances of animal abuse in the seal hunt. Proven cases that is, I'm sure
that all the environmentalists are postive that there is much more b/c that
is what those organizations get paid to do...make assumptions. There will
always be a small number of people in any industry/hunt/etc. who will abuse
it. There's no changing that.
The fact remains that the only approved method for killing the seals is by
gun. Nobody goes out in mass numbers and clubs seals. Another fact is that
if the seal hunt was to be discontinued, the cod stocks (as well as numerous
other fish stocks)on the north-east seaboard would be decimated even more
then they are now. Seals aren't cute little darlings...they're wild animals
whose population is growing at a superfast rate. It has to be kept in check
and the only way to do that is to kill them. Plain and simple.
All I'm saying is that don't judge the sealhunt and the people involved b/c
of a couple of tapes that were recorded by organizations such as Greenpeace
under suspicious circumstances to say the least. Get the facts on the whole
issue before you mouth off about it.
This isn't directed at anybody in particular here, this is just where I came
into the thread.
Dave
"oshuns" <osh...@videotron.ca> wrote in message
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