Guitarists-What's Paul's Toughest Song?
Wilkie
advent of the internet I've been able to "copy" more songs than in the past.
Right now, I'm working on what I think is a tough song - Something So Right.
But I don't think anything will ever match the 3 months I spent getting H &
B down on guitar.
What about you other guitar players. What's the toughest PS song you've ever
learned to play?
SNUMBER6
>What about you other guitar players. What's the toughest PS song you've ever
>learned to play?
I have failed to learn to play Anji for 35 years ...
Granted I have given up mostly the past 20 ...
Now that's not technically a PS song ...
but it is the one with my greatest failure ...
In the Village ....
I am not a number ... I am a free man !!!!
TimorLenk
Hello all!
Greetings from Denmark! After I for several years tried to play
"Scarborugh Fair" with a capo on 7th fret and an a-minor position I
just recently found out that PS is playing it with a capo on the
second fret and in d-minor position. I think he learned that from the
english guitarists which he known in England during the sixties. The
major influences is (as I know) Martin Carthy & Davy Graham (the
composer of "Anji"). A great version of "Anji" is the one made by the
english singer/songwriter Bert Jansch in 1965 on his first LP - very
bluesy!
willy
from 1993, followed closely by Hearts and Bones. Of the ones I've never
learned, I think Armistice Day and some of the others on the first album(Peace
Like A River, Learn How To Fall) have some tough licks I've never figured
out. I don't even know where on the guitar he is.
Another question I've never publicly asked: Are any of Paul's songs
recorded in alternate guitar tunings? I mean as the main tuning, not
overdubs. I've never even experimented with different tunings. And I've
listened to Paul so much I can't always tell when he's using a hi-string. Has
anybody listed that here before?
Miriam
> What about you other guitar players. What's the toughest PS song you've ever
> learned to play?
"Can I Forgive Him" is pretty tough. I cannot even figure out the chords!
Other tough ones are Anji, 50 Ways and Hearts and Bones. Oh and it might sound
silly but in the 6 years I'm playing, I still haven't figured out how to play
the intro of "The Boxer" _properly_, i.e. more or less exactly like Paul.
Miriam
--
The Cool River - http://paulsimon.cjb.net
Lunchbox
>recorded in alternate guitar tunings?
i remember seeing some place he plays alot of stuff tuned down a half step. i
know i saw The Boxer in a guitar mag. and it was written out this way. i think
he even plays a little off of that tho. i dunno if it's a half step then a
little flat, or a half step then a little bit sharper, but i thought i saw that
it's not at a perfect pitch. i don't remember what song(s) or album(s) this
was in reference to though.
LBX
Shake "down" to reply
"Just listen to the music play" - Franklin's Tower
Check out http://www.earthtoanna.com
Joey Berger
wrote:
I think you had it right the first time, at the 7th fret. Check out:
http://www.songfta.com/songs/psrt-sfc.html. Not too hard once you get
the rhythm down.
Joey Berger
He's done a lot of stuff over the users tuned down a half (or whole)
step. Can I Forgive Him? I think is done a whole step down, played in
"C". He used to do Pledging My Love tuning the guitar down a step in
order to get the right voicing for Johnny Ace.
Joey Berger
wrote:
>>
>> What about you other guitar players. What's the toughest PS song you've ever
>> learned to play?
>
>"Can I Forgive Him" is pretty tough. I cannot even figure out the chords!
>Other tough ones are Anji, 50 Ways and Hearts and Bones. Oh and it might sound
>silly but in the 6 years I'm playing, I still haven't figured out how to play
>the intro of "The Boxer" _properly_, i.e. more or less exactly like Paul.
>
>Miriam
That's because he doesn't play it! Fred Carter Jr. did and he played
it in I think Open E tuning (probably Open D with a capo). Check out:
for Can I Forgive Him:
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/sg24164/hiroshi/tab/forgive.htm
Chris Stern
approach to doing "covers". He would work at a song until he could play
every single hammer on and off EXACTLY like the original. Me, I hear a song
and work out my interpretation of it. So I can't really say which PS song is
the hardest...........many are VERY difficult. He's very underrated as a
guitarist I think. Although I got a guitar because of The Beatles (Jan 65),
it was with The Paul Simon Songbook and the songbook that went with it that
I really learned how to play and sing. I'll be eternally grateful to PS for
that and to Judith Pieppe who was a major force in promoting him here at
that time.
Chris
"Joey Berger" <pa...@simon.org.invalid> wrote in message
news:5g1kiuok1kbv8g6nr...@4ax.com...
Who Me
>learned, I think Armistice Day and some of the others on the first
>album(Peace
>Like A River, Learn How To Fall)
Without even venturing into the technicality of "Paul Simon" having been his
second album, Learn How to Fall is from "Rhymin' Simon"
:-)
Bill
"Television is not the truth. Television is a goddamn amusement park"
-- Howard Beale
"A lot of people in this business think I'm a smart-ass."
--David Letterman, 2/28/01
"I don't have any regrets, they can talk about me plenty when I'm gone.
Who Me
>guitarist I think.
Probably. I think it would be less so if he could have continued to play the
way he did up to the album "Paul Simon."
BLACKMANNY1
Yes; at least the "original" S&G version is in A-minor position at the 7th
fret. Now, Artie currently sings it in C-minor (3d fret). Which recording are
you listening to for a D-minor fingering at the 2d fret? (Obviously this would
"work" but you really wouldn't be able to get all of the notes in the
original...)
BLACKMANNY1
>the intro of "The Boxer" _properly_, i.e. more or less exactly like Paul.
That's probably because it should sound more or less like Fred Carter, Jr.
BLACKMANNY1
>recorded in alternate guitar tunings?
Sure, several of them. Offhand, The Boxer was recorded with the guitar tuned a
half-step down, so that the C-fingering sounded in "B" and Richard Cory was in
drop-D.
BLACKMANNY1
>learned to play?
>
Kind of a trick question; how 'bout the toughest PS song I couldn't learn to
play? For some reason, the fingerpicking stuff usually comes a bit easier for
me (I probably spent too much time listening to Bert Jansch and Dave Van Ronk!)
I had real trouble playing Paul's solo "Still Crazy" that he played on the '84
tour. I finally gave up. (If anyone has any suggestions....) I also have
trouble with Can't Run But (which I really really like).
willy
willy
lines of Richard Cory. Any others? Sometimes his chords, especially on the
older recordings, are so strong and full compared to the sounds I get out of my
guitar. Some of them sound like they have to have an extra open string, but
maybe it's just his Martin or his magic right hand or his magic Roy Halee. Is "A
Church Is Burning" in drop-D as well?
Michel Couzijn
> A great version of "Anji" is the one made by the english
> singer/songwriter Bert Jansch in 1965 on his first LP - very bluesy!
IMHO, the best version of 'Anji' far and by is arranged and played by
Harry Sacksioni, a Dutch guitarist. He put it on a solo album back in
1976 and developed the tune ever since. It is still in great demand at
his concerts - a real audience pleaser/stunner. I posted it a while
ago in alt.binaries.sounds.mp3
Michel Couzijn
Amsterdam, The Netherlands
Who Me
you won't get nothin' past this group...
Lina och Niall
he would still be up to playing a la "Paul Simon" again now. He did say he
was considering learning to play left-handed, but I guess he's all set
nowadays. Damn he's good. Too bad he's so quiet and shy on stage. Other than
that, I adore the guy. Always have.
xx
L
"BLACKMANNY1" <black...@aol.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:20020709000614...@mb-fp.aol.com...
Miriam
>
> That's because he doesn't play it! Fred Carter Jr. did and he played
> it in I think Open E tuning (probably Open D with a capo). Check out:
> for Can I Forgive Him:
> http://www.ne.jp/asahi/sg24164/hiroshi/tab/forgive.htm
Thanks for the link! Oh, but I'm a bit confused about The Boxer now, though -
I've always thought Paul would play that intro, you know, the travis-picked(?) C
chord (?) ??
Philipp Boerker
> Right now, I'm working on what I think is a tough song - Something So Right.
Something so right is quite easy. The most important thing to know is that
he tunes up the lower E string a half tone so that it becomes F. Otherwise
it would be impossible to play...
--
Dipl.-Ing. Philipp Boerker - gr...@cs.tu-berlin.de
Wenn ist das Nunstück git und Slotermeyer?
Ja! Beierhund das Oder die Flipperwaldt gesput!
Paolo
> Wilkie <wil...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Right now, I'm working on what I think is a tough song - Something So Right.
>
> Something so right is quite easy. The most important thing to know is that
> he tunes up the lower E string a half tone so that it becomes F. Otherwise
> it would be impossible to play...
So I do "Something so impossible..."
All formal and informal tablature of SSR does not show the tuning up
of the lower E string. And if you notice carefully the way he plays it
in "Paul Simon special" you will see his lower E is not at all tuned
up.
Philipp Boerker
> So I do "Something so impossible..."
> All formal and informal tablature of SSR does not show the tuning up
> of the lower E string. And if you notice carefully the way he plays it
> in "Paul Simon special" you will see his lower E is not at all tuned
> up.
Actually, I it was this video which made me believe that he does tune it
up. Well, this was many years ago and since you say the opposite, I dare
not say I were right and you were wrong.
Simon Murgatroyd
on occasion. Apart from being easier to play in E, you also get a more
rounded (IMHO) sound in E since the open strings resonate better.
The other reason I'm sure its E is that on the solo tour of 1984 he segued
into Hearts and Bones, which is definitely E.
Its possible that the original (if it was pitched in F - I'd have to hear it
again to check) was a tuned up or capo'd guitar. Maybe some string players
could confirm, but I also think F (1 flat) is a more normal key for a string
section than 4 sharps which might have had a bearing on the original
recording.
Simon M
"Philipp Boerker" <gr...@cs.tu-berlin.de> wrote in message
news:agmjc9$jic$1...@news.cs.tu-berlin.de...
Philipp Boerker
> Apart from being easier to play in E, you also get a more
> rounded (IMHO) sound in E since the open strings resonate better.
For low-key songs I often prefer the sound of tunings that are just a
half-tone away from the common tunings. Just like F, Bb or Gsharp minor
and such. Often the sound of an uncommon key inspired me to write
something I wouldn't have come up with in A/E/C/D-tunings...
> The other reason I'm sure its E is that on the solo tour of 1984 he segued
> into Hearts and Bones, which is definitely E.
Hm, concert arrangements may differ...
> Its possible that the original (if it was pitched in F - I'd have to hear it
> again to check) was a tuned up or capo'd guitar.
I believed that it was an ordinary tuning with just the low E string tuned
up to F.
> Maybe some string players
> could confirm, but I also think F (1 flat) is a more normal key for a string
> section than 4 sharps which might have had a bearing on the original
> recording.
Not being a string player but remembering something I read on arranging
songs some years ago I do believe that you are right in this. F and Bb are
popular keys for string sections.
Simon Murgatroyd
open strings it would move fairly easily between E and F anyway. For me, I
just feel the harmonics put it in E with a capo, or tuned up a semi. (As an
aside, the last time I saw Paul play it live, he fluffed the natural
harmonic in the intro).
On my last point about pitch and the strings, I suspect Paul would be more
likely to pitch it for his voice rather than for the string sections
convenience anyway!
Why don't we get Nicolas to ask Paul when he meets him next show?
Simon M
"Philipp Boerker" <gr...@cs.tu-berlin.de> wrote in message
news:agmnu8$q79$1...@news.cs.tu-berlin.de...
Joey Berger
Sometimes he plays it open, sometimes he uses a capo. I don't know why
he'd tune up.
Joey Berger
wrote:
>Paolo <xila...@infonie.fr> wrote:
>
>> So I do "Something so impossible..."
>> All formal and informal tablature of SSR does not show the tuning up
>> of the lower E string. And if you notice carefully the way he plays it
>> in "Paul Simon special" you will see his lower E is not at all tuned
>> up.
>
>Actually, I it was this video which made me believe that he does tune it
>up. Well, this was many years ago and since you say the opposite, I dare
>not say I were right and you were wrong.
He tunes *down* a lot (The Boxer, Pledging My Love, Can I Forgive
Him?), but I don't think ever up. Isn't that bad for the neck of his
guitar?
Jean-Marc Orliaguet
Here it goes:
Place your fingers like that:
d 0
b 0
g 2
d 3
a 5
e x
and then:
Capo 4
d |---0------------------------------------------------
b |------0-----0--------0--------0---------------------
g |---------2-----2--------2--------2-----0--------0---
d |------------------3--------0--------0-----3---------
a |---------------------------------------------5------
e |----------------------------------------------------
JM
-- Jean-Marc Orliaguet (j...@ckk.chalmers.se) - http://www.ckk.chalmers.se/people/jmo/ - Tel: +46 31 772 8581
Jean-Marc Orliaguet
here's an mp3 of the tab below, I have just recorded
http://www.medialab.chalmers.se/guitar/sounds/boxer-intro.mp3
listen to it and compare
JM
Ed Lusby
to the Boxer in their article on Paul Simon's guitar styles (1 or 2
years ago). It's a much easier fingering than seen on the tab found
on PS websites. Everybody says Fred Carter plays that, but I don't
know where this info came from. Paul could play it easily.
I haven't tried Anji, but of the straight PS tunes, Hearts and
Bones is high on my list. I never could do the fast strumming with my
hands to get the sound that Paul does. Apparently he "palms" a pick
and somehow and pulls it out during the strumming part-at least that's
what it looks like he does in the Concert in the Park video. I've seen
other guitarists do this; I guess it's a common technique. As if the
arrangement isn't hard enough.
Ed
On Tue, 09 Jul 2002 17:50:48 +0200, Miriam <golden-he...@web.de>
wrote:
Ed Lusby
This is the version given in Acoustic Guitar World. I haven't tried
to figure out which version sounds closest. I'm not sure my ear would
know the difference at playing speed!
Start with the fingering below. After the first 6 notes, slide
the 3rd finger down to 3rd fret on 2nd string. At the end, your first
finger is right on target for the opening C chord.
Ed
e 0
b 8 3rd finger
g 7 2nd finger
d 8 1st finger
a x
e x
e |------0-----0-------0--------0----------------------
b |---8--------------------3--------3-----1------1-----
g |---------7-----7----------0---------0---3--0-------
d |------------------8---------------------------------
a |---------------------------------------------------
e |----------------------------------------------------
Wilkie
> hands to get the sound that Paul does.
That's funny, cause that's the part I look forward to when I can finally
relax:-)
Nicolas
> What about you other guitar players. What's the toughest PS song you've ever
> learned to play?
I have difficulties to catch the rythm of Peace like a river solos.
Nicolas
BLACKMANNY1
>
He does some pull-offs and string bends on that one that are really
impressive...
Nicolas
--
Nicolas
AMPSters are on tour! Check:
www.altmusicpaulsimon.com/tour/
"BLACKMANNY1" <black...@aol.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
20020716100302...@mb-fi.aol.com...
Jean-Marc Orliaguet
Thank you Ed, it's impossible to play... You may listen to the live version of "The Boxer" on the "Back To College" CD with Fred Carter Jr and you'll hear that he plays the intro very smoothly. I can't possibly imagine that he's actually doing the version shown below. Has Acoustic Guitar World done the entire nylon guitar part?
/JM
-- Jean-Marc Orliaguet ( j...@ckk.chalmers.se ) - http://www.ckk.chalmers.se/people/jmo/ - Tel: +46 31 772 8581
Nicolas
>Granted I have given up mostly the past 20 ...
>Now that's not technically a PS song ...
>but it is the one with my greatest failure ...
Try the new live version: it is much easier ;o)
Ed Lusby
First, I want to thank you so much for the tab you have provided the
PS community. I can't tell you how much it has meant to me.
The version below is possible to play smoothly and very fast, but
it takes a while. The parts fit together very well. After the first
6 notes, there is an open E string that gives you time to slide your
3rd finger on the 2nd string down to the 3rd fret. After that your
1st finger hits the 1st fret 2nd string, after which it is easy to go
right to the opening C chord. I don't know that this matters, but I
use 4 fingers to pick it.
Most of main guitar part of The Boxer is in the same article as
the intro, but no mention was made of a second guitar part, save
intro.
If anyone is interested in the article in GW Acoustic, email me
privately and I'll scan it and send it to you. It's called "50 Ways
to Play Paul Simon". It has about 4 bars transcribed of the following
songs: Homeward Bound; The Boxer, most of the song, including intro;
Scarborough Fair; Duncan; America; Me & Julio; American Tune-most of
the song; Sounds of Silence; Mrs. Robinson intro; Something So Right,
8-10 bars. Most of these songs are fully transcribed elsewhere,
either at PS websites (Jean-Marc's, Rich Kent's, or Brad Priddy's),
other issues of GW Acoustic (Me&Julio, Kodachrome, America, Mrs.
Robinson), or in Paul Simon Transcribed Published by Accent on Music.
Ed
PS Paul and George are on E tonight at 7PM and 1AM PDT.
Ed
Jean-Marc Orliaguet
Hi, Ed, I will listen carefully to the nylon guitar part with headphones and try to figure it out. My impression throughout the entire song is that there are higher notes ( the ones played off-beat ) that require that you have a capo on the middle of the fretboard. They can clearly be heard in the Em, D and D7 chords (Am G G7 when played in C).
The chords are, I guess:
Capo 4
G Em D D7 ...
d- x 2 0
0
B- 0 0 3
7
G- 0 0 2
5
D- 0 2 0
0
A- 2 2 0
0
E- 3 0 x
x
JM
-- Jean-Marc Orliaguet ( j...@ckk.chalmers.se ) - http://www.ckk.chalmers.se/people/jmo/ - Tel: +46 31 772 8581
Ed Lusby
only in a couple of spots in the first verse. Problem is, after the
intro the main guitar part dominates both channels, almost
obliterating the nylon part. I really don't like the way the mixing
has been done on most of PS records. I don't know how you've
transcribed a lot of the songs that you have-I can hardly hear the
guitar in some tunes. Good luck!
Ed
Jean-Marc Orliaguet
Well, actually there are 2 nylon guitar parts if you listen VERY
carefully:
1) the one heard in the intro which then becomes some sort of rhythm
guitar playing the same notes over and over, so the G chord in the
beginning of the verse is actually a G/D. You almost have to use a voice
remover to hear it at first. But once you've heard it, you can still
hear it without a voice remover...
Capo 4
G/D Em D C
d-|---------------------------------------------------------------|
B-|---------------------------------------------------------------|
G-|---------------------------------------------------------------|
D-|--------0--0--0--0--0--0--0--2--2--2-.....--0------------------|
A-|---------------------------------------------------------3-----|
E-|---------------------------------------------------------------|
also there is a distinctive riff at the end of the song at 4:49s where
you'll recognize the guitar:
D
d-|---------------------------------------------------------------|
B-|-----------------------------0====-----------------------------|
G-|-------------------0-----2---2//4-----4-----2-----0-------------|
D-|--------0----h2---------------------------------------0--------|
A-|---------------------------------------------------------------|
E-|---------------------------------------------------------------|
and 2) there is the nylon guitar part that I mentionned in the previous
mail which you can hear in the ending of the song more distinctively. It
begins this way:
G
. . . .
d-|-----------------------------------------------------|
B-|--------0------------------------0-------------------|
G-|-----------0-----0-----0------------0-----0-----0----|
D-|--------0-----------0------------0-----------0-------|
A-|--------------2------------------------2-------------|
E-|--3-----------------------3--------------------------|
T m i T m i m T m i T m i m
T T
and then is simply a variation on the same pattern with the following
chords instead:
Em : x22002
D : x00230
D7 : x00210 and x00570
C : x23010
I've recorded this part as it sounds to me, improvising a bit, so it's
not off the record. But I think it still comes pretty close to the
original.
Here is the sample:
http://www.ckk.chalmers.se/guitar/misc/boxer-impro.mp3
Best
JM
--
Jean-Marc Orliaguet (j...@ckk.chalmers.se)
Nicolas
Thanks. Very interesting. I couldn't figure out what the 2nd guitar on the
outro was, and thought maybe it was a high-string one.
> also there is a distinctive riff at the end of the song at 4:49s where
> you'll recognize the guitar
4:59s I think
Jean-Marc Orliaguet
Yes definitely there is a high-string guitar too. I think it is standard
tuning, capo 4. You can hear it in the solo verse, the ending and at
exactly 2:10s (if I get it right this time). It has the same sound
texture as the guitars in "The Only Living Bo in NY" playing straight
chords on 2nd and 4th beats, strumming G Em D D7 / G Em D C ...
JM
--
Jean-Marc Orliaguet
tuning, capo 4. You can hear it in the solo verse, the ending and at
exactly 2:10s (if I get it right this time). It has the same sound
texture as the guitars in "The Only Living Bo in NY" playing straight
chords on 2nd and 4th beats, strumming G Em D D7 / G Em D C ...
JM
--
Ed Lusby
<j...@ckk.chalmers.se> wrote:
>
>Well, actually there are 2 nylon guitar parts if you listen VERY
>carefully:
>1) the one heard in the intro which then becomes some sort of rhythm
>guitar playing the same notes over and over, so the G chord in the
>beginning of the verse is actually a G/D. You almost have to use a voice
>remover to hear it at first. But once you've heard it, you can still
>hear it without a voice remover...
>
What's a voice remover? My music editing software (CoolPro) doesn't
have anything like this, as far as I know.
Ed
Jean-Marc Orliaguet
Try this one:
http://www.analogx.com/contents/download/audio/vremover.htm
It's a good idea to use a voice remover in case you'd overlooked an instrument (like the nylon guitar here), but you lose the stereo so it's a trade-off. Again you can hear it anyway, it is only a matter of mentally filtering out the rest of the instruments. I remember trying to figure out the harmonies sung by Garfunkel in "The Boxer" until I heard him on SNL (1975) singing much louder than usual. Now I clearly hear his melody in the studio version too, although I didn't first. In fact I can hear him singing the intro of the song one *octave* lower than the usual tone. So there must be at least 3 or 4 voices in the studio version.
You can also change the speed of the song by half or 3/4 without changing the pitch if it helps, but still I believe that it's a better to try and train your ear than using these artefacts. Some transcribers advice not to use them at all.
/JM
-- Jean-Marc Orliaguet ( j...@ckk.chalmers.se ) - http://www.ckk.chalmers.se/people/jmo/ - Tel: +46 31 772 8581
Nicolas
> What's a voice remover? My music editing software (CoolPro) doesn't
> have anything like this, as far as I know.
http://paulsimon.free.fr/music.htm
Ed Lusby
can't wait to try them out, but I just bought a 12 string that will
keep me away from the computer a while. I'm having a blast learning
Emily and As Tears Go By. What great 12 string songs! Brilliant
compositions.
Ed