My final note on Pantera vs. Black/Death
locu...@eartlink.net
Alright, I'm the one who started the whole "to all black\death fans
that dubbed Pantera false bla bla bla", and over the past few days have
seen people arguing over it back and forth and have come up with one
conclusion-everyone's situation in life is different. This obviously
affects the type of music they like. Hard core metal (pantera) in and
of itself is no better or worse than any death/black metal. No one type
of art is better than another. There is noting wrong with death metal
in and of itself, in fact, i really like the idea of Black/Death metal.
The thing is, though, there are some WORKS of art that are better than
others. The problem with death/black metal today is that most of the
bands that are around today aren't very good. There are some good ones,
like Deicide, Six Feet Under, Morbid Angel, and a few others. Most of
the ones I have heard (and I have heard a lot-I have a radio station in
my city that has a show on once a week dedicated totally to death/black
metal) don't have very good melodies or rythyms. Most of the time it
just sounds like a bunch of deep bass and noise. Death metal has the
potential to be very good. If there were more bands as good as the ones
I've listed above (and a few more) then I'd be a huge fan of death
myself (actually I can't say much on Morbid Angel's account, I've only
heard Domination, tell me if the other's are like that one). As for
Pantera, they are a very good band because they really accomplish what
they are trying to do with their songs. They really get across their
rage, aggression, and brutality-not necesarily in their lyrics (although
there are some good lyrics, and Phil is the perfect singer for this
music) but in their music mostly. It would be very difficult to replace
any member of that band and have them be as good as they are right now.
As for calling them "false", I think I understand why you're saying that
now. You think they are dishonest to the public about their past. They
have never once denied what they did in the 80s, in fact, in an
interview with metal edge dimebag was asked about it and said that those
were some of the funnest days of his life. He said they had a great
time back then, but also stated that they changed because they were
trying to be like everyone else. They realized that they wanted to do
something themselves without following everyone else and created their
own thing, and evolved from thier previous Power metal album into the
power groove on Cowboys from Hell. Whenever they say Cowboys was their
first album, what they alway say is that Cowboys was their first MAJOR
LABEL album, which is totally true. They don't have to talk about their
bad points(the glam stuff), in fact any band in their right mind (from
black metal to christian rock) doesn't talk about their bad points
either. However, if pantera was asked about those days, they don't deny
them, as proved in Metal Edge's interview with dimebag. Finally, I just
want to say, lets stop all this stupid bullshit fighting and just listen
to what we want to. If you like death/black stuff, go listen to it, I
won't stop you, in fact I didn't start talking about it until someone
from the black/death group started talking shit about Pantera. If you
like Pantera, great, go listen to them. Just don't start going off on
what other people listen to unless it comes up and you can justify it
without being a totall dickhead or asshole.
-Chris
P.S. By the way, I'm not just doing this cause I'm a Pantera fan. In
fact, I had heard a lot of death stuff before I heard Pantera. I just
beleive all metal fans should stick together to show those corporate
fuckheads at the record companies and MTV and the radio stations that we
won't conform to what they tell us to do and the metal will never die.
Billy Joe Bob Jr.
locu...@eartlink.net wrote:
>Alright, I'm the one who started the whole "to all black\death fans
>that dubbed Pantera false bla bla bla", and over the past few days have
>seen people arguing over it back and forth and have come up with one
>conclusion-everyone's situation in life is different. This obviously
>affects the type of music they like.
...
>Hard core metal (pantera) in and
>of itself is no better or worse than any death/black metal.
pantera isnt "hard core metal". and yes, by itself, one genre isnt
better then another.
>No one type
>of art is better than another. There is noting wrong with death metal
>in and of itself, in fact, i really like the idea of Black/Death metal.
>The thing is, though, there are some WORKS of art that are better than
>others. The problem with death/black metal today is that most of the
>bands that are around today aren't very good. There are some good ones,
>like Deicide, Six Feet Under, Morbid Angel, and a few others.
six feet under are horrible...
on the contrary, most death metal releases that i've heard are really
good. its the black metal that sucks, but good bands in that genre
rate with good bands in any other.
>Most of
>the ones I have heard (and I have heard a lot-I have a radio station in
>my city that has a show on once a week dedicated totally to death/black
>metal) don't have very good melodies or rythyms.
like who?
you dont _need_ to be obsessed with melody to create good music.
and...they dont have good rhythyms? how can you say that? death metal
drummers are amongst the best around: hoglan, sandoval, trym (well, he
seems to think he's in a death band), hellhammer, bla bla bla. death
bands have a MUCH better conception of rhythym then most.
>Most of the time it
>just sounds like a bunch of deep bass and noise.
get a better set of headphones.
>Death metal has the
>potential to be very good. If there were more bands as good as the ones
>I've listed above (and a few more) then I'd be a huge fan of death
>myself
>(actually I can't say much on Morbid Angel's account, I've only
>heard Domination, tell me if the other's are like that one).
the older material kicks the shit out of domination. the only things
that i liked on that album were A) the drumming, B) the solos, and C)
where the slime live. the songs themselves suck. i remember when dave
vincent had a decent voice, too...
>As for
>Pantera, they are a very good band because they really accomplish what
>they are trying to do with their songs. They really get across their
>rage, aggression, and brutality
pantera is brutal?
pantera is angry?
damn...
listen to more death metal and THEN compare.
>-not necesarily in their lyrics (although
>there are some good lyrics, and Phil is the perfect singer for this
>music)
a black metal vocalist would help them a lot more...
>but in their music mostly. It would be very difficult to replace
>any member of that band and have them be as good as they are right now.
try replacing A) the drummer, or B) the bassist, and see if they sound
different.
>As for calling them "false", I think I understand why you're saying that
>now. You think they are dishonest to the public about their past.
no, they're dishonest in general. anyone that does something for
popularity is being dishonest for corrupting what should be art.
>They
>have never once denied what they did in the 80s, in fact, in an
>interview with metal edge dimebag was asked about it and said that those
>were some of the funnest days of his life. He said they had a great
>time back then, but also stated that they changed because they were
>trying to be like everyone else. They realized that they wanted to do
>something themselves without following everyone else and created their
>own thing, and evolved from thier previous Power metal album into the
>power groove on Cowboys from Hell.
A) CFH is semi-thrash.
B) if they did what they did back then for money/popularity, isnt it
concievable they're doing the same now?
>Whenever they say Cowboys was their
>first album, what they alway say is that Cowboys was their first MAJOR
>LABEL album, which is totally true.
theres a HUGE difference between those statements...
>They don't have to talk about their
>bad points(the glam stuff), in fact any band in their right mind (from
>black metal to christian rock) doesn't talk about their bad points
>either.
if i put out an album that i later decided was shit, i'd say so, and
make sure everyone knew that i thought it was substandard so they dont
go out and waste their time buying shitty music. common courtesy.
>However, if pantera was asked about those days, they don't deny
>them, as proved in Metal Edge's interview with dimebag.
but the difference is that as of now, they have an image that seems to
be there to get some trendy fucks to buy their music so they can be
"cool". what does talking about how cool you are have to do with
music? what does putting pictures of pot leafs on shirts/at concerts
have to do with music? image.
>Finally, I just
>want to say, lets stop all this stupid bullshit fighting and just listen
>to what we want to. If you like death/black stuff, go listen to it, I
>won't stop you, in fact I didn't start talking about it until someone
>from the black/death group started talking shit about Pantera.
i thought it was the other way around. but thats not the point; if
even one person gets off their ass and finds a new band that they
enjoy because we've been talking about them, this thread had a
purpose. make sense? i've only been responding to other people's
comments, anyway...
>If you
>like Pantera, great, go listen to them. Just don't start going off on
>what other people listen to unless it comes up and you can justify it
>without being a totall dickhead or asshole.
i think most of my comments about pantera were fairly justified (666,
a pantera fan, even agreed with me on a number of them).
> -Chris
>P.S. By the way, I'm not just doing this cause I'm a Pantera fan. In
>fact, I had heard a lot of death stuff before I heard Pantera. I just
>beleive all metal fans should stick together to show those corporate
>fuckheads at the record companies and MTV and the radio stations that we
>won't conform to what they tell us to do and the metal will never die.
metal will be turned into shit if mtv gets hold of it. let radio
stations and mtv think it doesnt exist, we'll always have better music
when none of it is influenced by bullshit corporate aspirations and
such. when it gets to the point where no one makes any money from
composing death/black metal, all the better; the real fans will still
be around, and they'll have better music because it will be PURE. i
plan on doing my part...
-Daemonic
Pigwalk666
In article <606kav$1...@camel3.mindspring.com>, xy...@mindspring.com (Billy
Joe Bob Jr.) writes:
>metal will be turned into shit if mtv gets hold of it. let radio
>stations and mtv think it doesnt exist, we'll always have better music
>when none of it is influenced by bullshit corporate aspirations and
>such. when it gets to the point where no one makes any money from
>composing death/black metal, all the better; the real fans will still
>be around, and they'll have better music because it will be PURE. i
>plan on doing my part...
For some reason noone i've talked to at school can understand this. Seems
that i'm the only teen here in FL that doesn't want to play music to get rich.
Pigwalk666 - AGFF Pimp Lord
@%#@%#@%#@%#@%#@%#%. |||__||| |||__||| |||__|||
ONE THOUSAND POSTS TO \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/
TO ALT.GAMES.FINAL-FANTASY . (0250)(0500)(1000)
@%#@%#@%#@%#@%#@%#% . \__/ \__/ \__/
locu...@earthlink.net
Billy Joe Bob Jr. wrote:
>
> locu...@eartlink.net wrote:
>
> >Alright, I'm the one who started the whole "to all black\death fans
> >that dubbed Pantera false bla bla bla", and over the past few days have
> >seen people arguing over it back and forth and have come up with one
> >conclusion-everyone's situation in life is different. This obviously
> >affects the type of music they like.
>
> ...
>
> >Hard core metal (pantera) in and
> >of itself is no better or worse than any death/black metal.
>
> pantera isnt "hard core metal". and yes, by itself, one genre isnt
> better then another.
>
> >No one type
> >of art is better than another. There is noting wrong with death metal
> >in and of itself, in fact, i really like the idea of Black/Death metal.
> >The thing is, though, there are some WORKS of art that are better than
> >others. The problem with death/black metal today is that most of the
> >bands that are around today aren't very good. There are some good ones,
> >like Deicide, Six Feet Under, Morbid Angel, and a few others.
>
> six feet under are horrible...
>
> on the contrary, most death metal releases that i've heard are really
> good. its the black metal that sucks, but good bands in that genre
> rate with good bands in any other.
>
As far as talent goes, death has some of the best stuff I've heard, as
well as Pantera. What I'm talking about is their ability to make a good
song, not to play a good song. I'm sure most of them must be good
songwriters, but most don't show it.
> >Most of
> >the ones I have heard (and I have heard a lot-I have a radio station in
> >my city that has a show on once a week dedicated totally to death/black
> >metal) don't have very good melodies or rythyms.
>
> like who?
>
> you dont _need_ to be obsessed with melody to create good music.
> and...they dont have good rhythyms? how can you say that? death metal
> drummers are amongst the best around: hoglan, sandoval, trym (well, he
> seems to think he's in a death band), hellhammer, bla bla bla. death
> bands have a MUCH better conception of rhythym then most.
>
Well, actually, yes you do have to be obsessed with melody. Rythym and
melody are what totally make up music. Like I said, death/black
musicians are some of the most talented I've seen. The problem is,
whoever writes their stuff doesn't give them parts that sound good.
Although most of their parts must be really hard to play, they don't
create a very good rythym.
> >Most of the time it
> >just sounds like a bunch of deep bass and noise.
>
> get a better set of headphones.
That's the best you can come up with?
> >Death metal has the
> >potential to be very good. If there were more bands as good as the ones
> >I've listed above (and a few more) then I'd be a huge fan of death
> >myself
>
> www.deathmetal.com
>
Well you must be a fan of some really underground stuff, cause the stuff
they play on the radio, and they have played most of the better known
bands, wasn't very good.
> >(actually I can't say much on Morbid Angel's account, I've only
> >heard Domination, tell me if the other's are like that one).
>
> the older material kicks the shit out of domination. the only things
> that i liked on that album were A) the drumming, B) the solos, and C)
> where the slime live. the songs themselves suck. i remember when dave
> vincent had a decent voice, too...
>
> >As for
> >Pantera, they are a very good band because they really accomplish what
> >they are trying to do with their songs. They really get across their
> >rage, aggression, and brutality
>
> pantera is brutal?
>
> pantera is angry?
>
> damn...
>
> listen to more death metal and THEN compare.
>
Yes, pantera is extremely brutal and angry. I've heard a lot of death
and, yes, pantera gets a lot more anger and brutaity across than any
death band I've heard.
> >-not necesarily in their lyrics (although
> >there are some good lyrics, and Phil is the perfect singer for this
> >music)
>
> a black metal vocalist would help them a lot more...
>
A black metal vocalist would really make them sound stupid, they're
sound isn't dark enough for a black metal vocalist.
> >but in their music mostly. It would be very difficult to replace
> >any member of that band and have them be as good as they are right now.
>
> try replacing A) the drummer, or B) the bassist, and see if they sound
> different.
>
Yeah, they'd sound different. They'd sound a lot worse.
> >As for calling them "false", I think I understand why you're saying that
> >now. You think they are dishonest to the public about their past.
>
> no, they're dishonest in general. anyone that does something for
> popularity is being dishonest for corrupting what should be art.
>
They never do anything for popularity, they do it for the music. If
they were doing it for popularity they would sound more like Bush or
some Ska band now.
> >They
> >have never once denied what they did in the 80s, in fact, in an
> >interview with metal edge dimebag was asked about it and said that those
> >were some of the funnest days of his life. He said they had a great
> >time back then, but also stated that they changed because they were
> >trying to be like everyone else. They realized that they wanted to do
> >something themselves without following everyone else and created their
> >own thing, and evolved from thier previous Power metal album into the
> >power groove on Cowboys from Hell.
>
> A) CFH is semi-thrash.
>
> B) if they did what they did back then for money/popularity, isnt it
> concievable they're doing the same now?
>
No, there's no reason that they're doing anything for money now. Once
again, if they wanted more money they'd sound like new metallica, bush
or some Ska band now.
> >Whenever they say Cowboys was their
> >first album, what they alway say is that Cowboys was their first MAJOR
> >LABEL album, which is totally true.
>
> theres a HUGE difference between those statements...
>
Exactly, you keep saying that they say that cfh was their first album.
They've never said that. They've only said that cfh was their first
major label album.
> >They don't have to talk about their
> >bad points(the glam stuff), in fact any band in their right mind (from
> >black metal to christian rock) doesn't talk about their bad points
> >either.
>
> if i put out an album that i later decided was shit, i'd say so, and
> make sure everyone knew that i thought it was substandard so they dont
> go out and waste their time buying shitty music. common courtesy.
>
Dimebag said himself they were following others, so anyone would know
that those albums were glam, and if they don't like glam they won't buy
them. By the way, those albums have been out of print for years now, so
you don't have to worry about anyone wasting their money on them, unless
they wanted them for collector's purposes.
> >However, if pantera was asked about those days, they don't deny
> >them, as proved in Metal Edge's interview with dimebag.
>
> but the difference is that as of now, they have an image that seems to
> be there to get some trendy fucks to buy their music so they can be
> "cool". what does talking about how cool you are have to do with
> music? what does putting pictures of pot leafs on shirts/at concerts
> have to do with music? image.
>
They never talk about how cool they are. They only talk about their
music. They look that way because they want to. By the way, what does
putting pentagrams, skulls, blood and dead bodies on shirts and wearing
a bunch of leather have to do with music? image. Black/death metal has
just as much of an image as pantera. Also, pantera never worries that
much about what their stages look like.
> >Finally, I just
> >want to say, lets stop all this stupid bullshit fighting and just listen
> >to what we want to. If you like death/black stuff, go listen to it, I
> >won't stop you, in fact I didn't start talking about it until someone
> >from the black/death group started talking shit about Pantera.
>
> i thought it was the other way around. but thats not the point; if
> even one person gets off their ass and finds a new band that they
> enjoy because we've been talking about them, this thread had a
> purpose. make sense? i've only been responding to other people's
> comments, anyway...
>
Well, I don't know who started it, but all I remember is hearing some
stupid sshit about pantera being "false."
> >If you
> >like Pantera, great, go listen to them. Just don't start going off on
> >what other people listen to unless it comes up and you can justify it
> >without being a totall dickhead or asshole.
>
> i think most of my comments about pantera were fairly justified (666,
> a pantera fan, even agreed with me on a number of them).
>
No they're not. I've just contradicted all of them.
> > -Chris
>
> >P.S. By the way, I'm not just doing this cause I'm a Pantera fan. In
> >fact, I had heard a lot of death stuff before I heard Pantera. I just
> >beleive all metal fans should stick together to show those corporate
> >fuckheads at the record companies and MTV and the radio stations that we
> >won't conform to what they tell us to do and the metal will never die.
>
> metal will be turned into shit if mtv gets hold of it. let radio
> stations and mtv think it doesnt exist, we'll always have better music
> when none of it is influenced by bullshit corporate aspirations and
> such. when it gets to the point where no one makes any money from
> composing death/black metal, all the better; the real fans will still
> be around, and they'll have better music because it will be PURE. i
> plan on doing my part...
>
> -Daemonic
I hope that metal never gets onto MTV again. I'm just saying we should
stick together so that it never dies from lack of money. There's a
difference between surviving and selling out. Black/death concentrates
just as much on image as pantera does.
Sneed666
Billy Joe Bob Jr. wrote:
>
I am a Pantera fan, and I have to agree with BJB on this one.
> Pantera brutal?
> listen to more death metal and THEN compare.
I agree here too. Pantera really doesn't have anything to be pissed
off about, and they don't fuckin rip my head off or anything, they
just get my energy up.
> try replacing A) the drummer, or B) the bassist, and see if they sound
> different.
Give Vinnie Paul credit. He's not great, but he doesn't suck either.
As for Rex, yeah, I've never seen him do anything special.
> A) CFH is semi-thrash.
Yeah, CFH is shit. Phil's glam-rock voice pokes through a lot on
that CD. So glad they released live versions of Cem.Gates and CFH.
> B) if they did what they did back then for money/popularity, isnt it
> concievable they're doing the same now?
Yep. But I still like the music, man.
> if i put out an album that i later decided was shit, i'd say so, and
> make sure everyone knew that i thought it was substandard so they dont
> go out and waste their time buying shitty music. common courtesy.
Yeah, except no store carries these pieces of shit anyway. I have
never seen any of their old CDs, just pics from the Net.
> metal will be turned into shit if mtv gets hold of it. let radio
> stations and mtv think it doesnt exist, we'll always have better music
> when none of it is influenced by bullshit corporate aspirations and
> such. when it gets to the point where no one makes any money from
> composing death/black metal, all the better; the real fans will still
> be around, and they'll have better music because it will be PURE. i
> plan on doing my part...
I agree, nothing pisses me off more than the corruption of the fans
due to popularity. It sucks to like Korn now because all these fuckin
trendies are into it now. Same went for White Zombie a couple years
ago. Just gotta ride it out. I'm sure the fakes will eventually lose
interest in Pantera, especially if they release something that isn't
very badass. (Hopefully they will.)
SNEED (formerly 666)
Billy Joe Bob Jr.
locu...@earthlink.net wrote:
>Billy Joe Bob Jr. wrote:
>>
>> locu...@eartlink.net wrote:
>>
>> >Alright, I'm the one who started the whole "to all black\death fans
>> >that dubbed Pantera false bla bla bla", and over the past few days have
>> >seen people arguing over it back and forth and have come up with one
>> >conclusion-everyone's situation in life is different. This obviously
>> >affects the type of music they like.
>>
>> ...
>>
>> >Hard core metal (pantera) in and
>> >of itself is no better or worse than any death/black metal.
>>
>> pantera isnt "hard core metal". and yes, by itself, one genre isnt
>> better then another.
>>
>Yes, Pantera is hard core metal.
define "hardcore". if "sounding like a hardcore band", well...laurent,
you tell him. :) if meaning "deeply rooted within the scene",
well...still, no.
>> >No one type
>> >of art is better than another. There is noting wrong with death metal
>> >in and of itself, in fact, i really like the idea of Black/Death metal.
>> >The thing is, though, there are some WORKS of art that are better than
>> >others. The problem with death/black metal today is that most of the
>> >bands that are around today aren't very good. There are some good ones,
>> >like Deicide, Six Feet Under, Morbid Angel, and a few others.
>>
>> six feet under are horrible...
>>
>> on the contrary, most death metal releases that i've heard are really
>> good. its the black metal that sucks, but good bands in that genre
>> rate with good bands in any other.
>>
>As far as talent goes, death has some of the best stuff I've heard, as
>well as Pantera. What I'm talking about is their ability to make a good
>song, not to play a good song. I'm sure most of them must be good
>songwriters, but most don't show it.
most of the bands i've listened to are great songwriters. try
NOCTURNUS. not only that, but they have the most intricate guitar shit
i've heard within the metal genre, ALL STYLES.
think about this: the reason i dont like pantera is because all their
songs suck. but its more then that; i think dime is a decent
guitarist. he comes up with some good guitar riffs, but i dont think
pantera knows how to put them together well. so you get stuff that
doesnt fit together, etc. etc. death metal is more complex,
compositionally; i figure thats the reason most people dont understand
just how great of songwriters they are.
if you think death metal just sounds like bassy noise, how can you
tell they're good musicians?
compare to mahler (some composer): the idea behind his music seems to
be continually returning to a subject, introducing more, coming back
to those, combining them all, introducing more. most people that dont
like him say that they dont feel the music is going anywhere; where
one composer might go through 10 different phrases, mahler will go
through 5, and take longer in doing it because of all the repetition.
its the same concept behind death metal; not because its composed in
the same way that mahler is, but because its composed _differently_.
>> >Most of
>> >the ones I have heard (and I have heard a lot-I have a radio station in
>> >my city that has a show on once a week dedicated totally to death/black
>> >metal) don't have very good melodies or rythyms.
>>
>> like who?
>>
>> you dont _need_ to be obsessed with melody to create good music.
>> and...they dont have good rhythyms? how can you say that? death metal
>> drummers are amongst the best around: hoglan, sandoval, trym (well, he
>> seems to think he's in a death band), hellhammer, bla bla bla. death
>> bands have a MUCH better conception of rhythym then most.
>>
>Well, actually, yes you do have to be obsessed with melody. Rythym and
>melody are what totally make up music.
find some african tribal music (preferably some without singing). its
all rhythym, no melody. how do they do that?
>Like I said, death/black
>musicians are some of the most talented I've seen. The problem is,
>whoever writes their stuff doesn't give them parts that sound good.
>Although most of their parts must be really hard to play, they don't
>create a very good rythym.
are we talking about _guitar_ rhythym parts? or rhythym in the
conventional sense? assuming the latter:
thats your personal taste. see comment about composition above. most
death metal fans will tell you the exact opposite, so i dont know.
>> >Most of the time it
>> >just sounds like a bunch of deep bass and noise.
>>
>> get a better set of headphones.
>That's the best you can come up with?
what would you like me to tell you? i've heard all the death metal
you've named and more, and you can take my word that its not "deep
bass and noise". so if you think it is, your speakers/headphones must
be fucked. i dont have a better explanation for you...
>> >Death metal has the
>> >potential to be very good. If there were more bands as good as the ones
>> >I've listed above (and a few more) then I'd be a huge fan of death
>> >myself
>>
>> www.deathmetal.com
>>
>Well you must be a fan of some really underground stuff, cause the stuff
>they play on the radio, and they have played most of the better known
>bands, wasn't very good.
there you go; popularity is no judge of bands. go to
www.deathmetal.com and listen to some of the shit there. tell us what
you think when you're done.
which "better known bands" are we talking about?
>> >As for
>> >Pantera, they are a very good band because they really accomplish what
>> >they are trying to do with their songs. They really get across their
>> >rage, aggression, and brutality
>>
>> pantera is brutal?
>>
>> pantera is angry?
>>
>> damn...
>>
>> listen to more death metal and THEN compare.
>>
>Yes, pantera is extremely brutal and angry. I've heard a lot of death
>and, yes, pantera gets a lot more anger and brutaity across than any
>death band I've heard.
suffocation
pyrexia
cryptopsy
darkthrone
morbid angel
deicide
carcass (old)
napalm death
malevolant creation (i think they suck, but they're still angry... :)
dismember
grave
godflesh
most punk...
most hardcore...
most thrash...
the list goes on...
which of those bands have you heard, out of curiosity?
i've repeated this list so many times...who wants to add on?
>> >-not necesarily in their lyrics (although
>> >there are some good lyrics, and Phil is the perfect singer for this
>> >music)
>>
>> a black metal vocalist would help them a lot more...
>>
>A black metal vocalist would really make them sound stupid, they're
>sound isn't dark enough for a black metal vocalist.
kreator isnt very dark (they're a thrash band, dammit!), but their
vocalist sounds pretty much like a toned-down black metal vocalist.
he's SCREAMING. well, he used to be, anyway.
>> >but in their music mostly. It would be very difficult to replace
>> >any member of that band and have them be as good as they are right now.
>>
>> try replacing A) the drummer, or B) the bassist, and see if they sound
>> different.
>>
>Yeah, they'd sound different. They'd sound a lot worse.
how? i've never heard anything very special from either of those
musicians?
>> >As for calling them "false", I think I understand why you're saying that
>> >now. You think they are dishonest to the public about their past.
>>
>> no, they're dishonest in general. anyone that does something for
>> popularity is being dishonest for corrupting what should be art.
>>
>They never do anything for popularity, they do it for the music. If
>they were doing it for popularity they would sound more like Bush or
>some Ska band now.
they dont need to. how much money do you think they make? plus, they
probably enjoy considering themselves a real "hard" band. i mean, they
smoke pot; they MUST be pretty damn cool.
(sarcasm)
>> >They
>> >have never once denied what they did in the 80s, in fact, in an
>> >interview with metal edge dimebag was asked about it and said that those
>> >were some of the funnest days of his life. He said they had a great
>> >time back then, but also stated that they changed because they were
>> >trying to be like everyone else. They realized that they wanted to do
>> >something themselves without following everyone else and created their
>> >own thing, and evolved from thier previous Power metal album into the
>> >power groove on Cowboys from Hell.
>>
>> A) CFH is semi-thrash.
>>
>> B) if they did what they did back then for money/popularity, isnt it
>> concievable they're doing the same now?
>>
>No, there's no reason that they're doing anything for money now. Once
>again, if they wanted more money they'd sound like new metallica, bush
>or some Ska band now.
they dont need to. they're on a major label, right? they make
shitloads of money already. there you go. but in addition, they get
the ego boost.
even old metallica sold big. didnt both AJFA and MOP sell around 4
million copies? obviously, metallica didnt sell out either, cuz they
didnt really need money (this is by your logic)...
>> >Whenever they say Cowboys was their
>> >first album, what they alway say is that Cowboys was their first MAJOR
>> >LABEL album, which is totally true.
>>
>> theres a HUGE difference between those statements...
>>
>Exactly, you keep saying that they say that cfh was their first album.
>They've never said that. They've only said that cfh was their first
>major label album.
and their bio, which convieniently forgets about the older albums?
>> >They don't have to talk about their
>> >bad points(the glam stuff), in fact any band in their right mind (from
>> >black metal to christian rock) doesn't talk about their bad points
>> >either.
>>
>> if i put out an album that i later decided was shit, i'd say so, and
>> make sure everyone knew that i thought it was substandard so they dont
>> go out and waste their time buying shitty music. common courtesy.
>>
>Dimebag said himself they were following others, so anyone would know
>that those albums were glam, and if they don't like glam they won't buy
>them.
you just said "no band in their right mind would talk about their bad
points".
>By the way, those albums have been out of print for years now, so
>you don't have to worry about anyone wasting their money on them, unless
>they wanted them for collector's purposes.
possessed "seven churches" is out of print, but it's still in their
bio...
>> >However, if pantera was asked about those days, they don't deny
>> >them, as proved in Metal Edge's interview with dimebag.
>>
>> but the difference is that as of now, they have an image that seems to
>> be there to get some trendy fucks to buy their music so they can be
>> "cool". what does talking about how cool you are have to do with
>> music? what does putting pictures of pot leafs on shirts/at concerts
>> have to do with music? image.
>>
>They never talk about how cool they are.
"metallica sold out. we'll never do that."
implication: we're cool. we kick ass. we're better then metallica.
we're True (tm).
>They only talk about their
>music. They look that way because they want to. By the way, what does
>putting pentagrams, skulls, blood and dead bodies on shirts and wearing
>a bunch of leather have to do with music? image. Black/death metal has
>just as much of an image as pantera.
thats only black metal. and most people will admit that a big bunch of
black metal bands are _fucking horrible_, to say the least. the good
ones are great, but there's something fucked in the scene...
most death metal bands dont seem to give much of a shit about leather,
corpsepaint, etc. (they did back in the day, but...) even some black
metal bands are taking all that shit off nowadays (emperor, cradle of
filth, etc.).
>> >If you
>> >like Pantera, great, go listen to them. Just don't start going off on
>> >what other people listen to unless it comes up and you can justify it
>> >without being a totall dickhead or asshole.
>>
>> i think most of my comments about pantera were fairly justified (666,
>> a pantera fan, even agreed with me on a number of them).
>>
>No they're not. I've just contradicted all of them.
its not important if they were "correct" or not (which i still think
they were), but they were JUSTIFIED.
>> metal will be turned into shit if mtv gets hold of it. let radio
>> stations and mtv think it doesnt exist, we'll always have better music
>> when none of it is influenced by bullshit corporate aspirations and
>> such. when it gets to the point where no one makes any money from
>> composing death/black metal, all the better; the real fans will still
>> be around, and they'll have better music because it will be PURE. i
>> plan on doing my part...
>>
>> -Daemonic
>I hope that metal never gets onto MTV again. I'm just saying we should
>stick together so that it never dies from lack of money.
most metal musicians should have figured out by now that they'll never
support themselves through their music. so the idea is that they'll
work at some job, and write music for the sake of writing it. with
musicians like that, there's no way the scene will ever die. death
metal has some of the most dedicated fans...
>There's a
>difference between surviving and selling out.
any metal band that wants to try to make money through what they sell
has to be pretty fucking stupid. its not a money making career. it's
an art appreciated by a very select few. thats the way it is with most
good art. difference is, stuff like abstract art gets help because
liking that stuff is part of being the "cultured elite" of society,
and thats something that people want to be. stuff like that gets money
pumped into them regardless of the quality of the art. and thats
forgetting that abstract art falls into the category of paintings,
which get displayed in museums, to which schools bring children (they
pay money) to try to teach them something, when even the teachers have
no idea about what they're looking at, save that it's supposedly
"good".
>Black/death concentrates
>just as much on image as pantera does.
again: mostly black, and thats no justification.
-Daemonic
Billy Joe Bob Jr.
Sneed666 <jsn...@fuckspam.vt.edu> wrote:
>Billy Joe Bob Jr. wrote:
>>
>> pantera isnt "hard core metal"
>I am a Pantera fan, and I have to agree with BJB on this one.
Billy Joe Bob _JR_. :P
>> Pantera brutal?
>> listen to more death metal and THEN compare.
>I agree here too. Pantera really doesn't have anything to be pissed
>off about, and they don't fuckin rip my head off or anything, they
>just get my energy up.
>> try replacing A) the drummer, or B) the bassist, and see if they sound
>> different.
>Give Vinnie Paul credit. He's not great, but he doesn't suck either.
>As for Rex, yeah, I've never seen him do anything special.
vinnie (the drummer?) isnt bad, sure, but you could concievably
replace him, and they'd still sound pretty much the same.
as for bassists, well, you could replace the bassist in most bands and
not give a fuck either way.
>> A) CFH is semi-thrash.
>Yeah, CFH is shit. Phil's glam-rock voice pokes through a lot on
>that CD. So glad they released live versions of Cem.Gates and CFH.
i thought his voice was...errr..."interesting" on that album. its
especially amusing at the end of cemetary gates where the guitar tries
to imitate him. :)
>> B) if they did what they did back then for money/popularity, isnt it
>> concievable they're doing the same now?
>Yep. But I still like the music, man.
see, look, a sensible pantera fan. he recognizes what the music is,
and admits it, so theres really nothing i can tell him he's wrong
about. why cant there be more smart people in the world?
>> metal will be turned into shit if mtv gets hold of it. let radio
>> stations and mtv think it doesnt exist, we'll always have better music
>> when none of it is influenced by bullshit corporate aspirations and
>> such. when it gets to the point where no one makes any money from
>> composing death/black metal, all the better; the real fans will still
>> be around, and they'll have better music because it will be PURE. i
>> plan on doing my part...
>I agree, nothing pisses me off more than the corruption of the fans
>due to popularity. It sucks to like Korn now because all these fuckin
>trendies are into it now. Same went for White Zombie a couple years
>ago. Just gotta ride it out. I'm sure the fakes will eventually lose
>interest in Pantera, especially if they release something that isn't
>very badass. (Hopefully they will.)
hence me playing some elton john covers if i ever start selling out
arenas. :) fixes the fan base.
if nothing more, i could try some dance/r&b with different vocals...
(scream) "i'm a barbie girl, in a barbie world motherfuckers!"
-Daemonic
Billy Joe Bob Jr.
White Spirit <wsp...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Billy Joe Bob Jr. wrote:
>> >Well, actually, yes you do have to be obsessed with melody. Rythym and
>> >melody are what totally make up music.
>
>> find some african tribal music (preferably some without singing). its
>> all rhythym, no melody. how do they do that?
>I find some death bands have very complicated melody, but most people
>won't call it melody since it doesn't conform to the common conception
>of what this is.
yep. though my point was that even if they didnt, they have more
complex rhythym then most stuff around, and that alone justifies it.
>The beauty of death metal is that it is completely
>independant from conformity to musical ideas of what is "right" and what
>is "wrong".
of course, in black metal, you have to do things that are True (tm)
and Unholy. like trying to sound like a venom clone. :) but thats
another story...
like that example i gave with Mahler before. death metal uses a
different way of putting things together, and people automatically
decide that since it doesnt sound like most other music forms, it has
to be bad in itself.
>Even better is the way that the melody further accentuates
>the rythm to give more impact. No other form of music I know does this
>so well, if at all.
>[snip]
>
>> >They only talk about their
>> >music. They look that way because they want to. By the way, what does
>> >putting pentagrams, skulls, blood and dead bodies on shirts and wearing
>> >a bunch of leather have to do with music? image. Black/death metal has
>> >just as much of an image as pantera.
>Not necessarily. I don't associate any particular image with some
>bands, most notably Napalm Death.
i dont assosiate any image with most death metal bands. take something
like deicide: theres a pretty OBVIOUS message, but i dont think that
the people themselves have any particular image tagged on (except for
glen and that cross he burned into his forehead)...
>> any metal band that wants to try to make money through what they sell
>> has to be pretty fucking stupid. its not a money making career. it's
>> an art appreciated by a very select few. thats the way it is with most
>> good art. difference is, stuff like abstract art gets help because
>> liking that stuff is part of being the "cultured elite" of society,
>> and thats something that people want to be. stuff like that gets money
>> pumped into them regardless of the quality of the art. and thats
>> forgetting that abstract art falls into the category of paintings,
>> which get displayed in museums, to which schools bring children (they
>> pay money) to try to teach them something, when even the teachers have
>> no idea about what they're looking at, save that it's supposedly
>> "good".
>It's a vicious circle. True art doesn't need justification in the way
>that people will go to see paintings and say "Oh yes, that's nice, I see
>what he/se is getting at there",
its more "oh, that looks pretty, it looks like a photograph; i just
missed the entire point of the painting, but as long as no one else
sees it, i'm fine..."
then, after that, they go to an opera, pretend to understand the
language it's in, and talk about how great it was. :)
>when really they don't know fuck all
>about something which is so abstract or so conformed as to render it
>meaningless. True art says something to the individual. It doesn't
>need to be sophisticated in the context of aesthetic appeal through
>social concepts of what is respectable and what isn't. Yet these same
>concepts are brainwashed into people's minds all through life.
biggest one: classical music automatically equals good music.
this one is fun to test out. go up to someone, and ask them what they
think of the genre. then ask them what composers they've heard.
a lot of classical stuff IS good, but we're taught to accept it
without hearing it first. people are stupid...
then there's the "if you dont sing, your band has no talent" one, but
we know all about that...
>This is
>where true metal is free. And when money enters into art, that's just
>prostitution, decadent and depraved.
>Musically, metal is one of the few true art forms around.
-Daemonic
Sneed666
Billy Joe Bob Jr. wrote:
> especially amusing at the end of cemetary gates where the guitar tries
> to imitate him. :)
It gets really bad in many places. The lyrics suck too. It's
basically all the same glam-like shit (Cowboys From Hell), except
for Primal Concrete Sledge, Domination, Heresy, and Art of Shredding.
Heresy would be a great song if Phil didn't sound like a pussy on
it. (When he says "they can lick my sack", it doesn't sound very
believeable.) The other three albums blow CFH away.
Don't get me wrong, CFH is still a kick-ass song. Sorta like
Twisted Sister's "We're Not Gonna Take It."
> see, look, a sensible pantera fan. he recognizes what the music is,
> and admits it, so theres really nothing i can tell him he's wrong
> about. why cant there be more smart people in the world?
:) Been asking myself the same question for years now. That's the
one advantage to being stupid, the dumb people don't piss you off.
SNEED (formerly 666)
White Spirit
Billy Joe Bob Jr. wrote:
> >Well, actually, yes you do have to be obsessed with melody. Rythym and
> >melody are what totally make up music.
> find some african tribal music (preferably some without singing). its
> all rhythym, no melody. how do they do that?
I find some death bands have very complicated melody, but most people
won't call it melody since it doesn't conform to the common conception
of what this is. The beauty of death metal is that it is completely
independant from conformity to musical ideas of what is "right" and what
is "wrong". Even better is the way that the melody further accentuates
the rythm to give more impact. No other form of music I know does this
so well, if at all.
[snip]
> >They only talk about their
> >music. They look that way because they want to. By the way, what does
> >putting pentagrams, skulls, blood and dead bodies on shirts and wearing
> >a bunch of leather have to do with music? image. Black/death metal has
> >just as much of an image as pantera.
Not necessarily. I don't associate any particular image with some
bands, most notably Napalm Death.
> any metal band that wants to try to make money through what they sell
> has to be pretty fucking stupid. its not a money making career. it's
> an art appreciated by a very select few. thats the way it is with most
> good art. difference is, stuff like abstract art gets help because
> liking that stuff is part of being the "cultured elite" of society,
> and thats something that people want to be. stuff like that gets money
> pumped into them regardless of the quality of the art. and thats
> forgetting that abstract art falls into the category of paintings,
> which get displayed in museums, to which schools bring children (they
> pay money) to try to teach them something, when even the teachers have
> no idea about what they're looking at, save that it's supposedly
> "good".
It's a vicious circle. True art doesn't need justification in the way
that people will go to see paintings and say "Oh yes, that's nice, I see
what he/se is getting at there", when really they don't know fuck all
about something which is so abstract or so conformed as to render it
meaningless. True art says something to the individual. It doesn't
need to be sophisticated in the context of aesthetic appeal through
social concepts of what is respectable and what isn't. Yet these same
concepts are brainwashed into people's minds all through life. This is
goden
Someone, who would be offended if termed a geek, named
gcar...@geocities.com ([^SCuM^] ) vomited forth:
>melodies and rythyms are gay...
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
The new AnalCunt 7"!
--
"I am a tool..."
-Burton Bell
[^SCuM^]
melodies and rythyms are gay...
In article <342605...@eartlink.net>, locu...@eartlink.net wrote:
> Alright, I'm the one who started the whole "to all black\death fans
> that dubbed Pantera false bla bla bla", and over the past few days have
> seen people arguing over it back and forth and have come up with one
> conclusion-everyone's situation in life is different. This obviously
> affects the type of music they like. Hard core metal (pantera) in and
> of itself is no better or worse than any death/black metal. No one type
> of art is better than another. There is noting wrong with death metal
> in and of itself, in fact, i really like the idea of Black/Death metal.
> The thing is, though, there are some WORKS of art that are better than
> others. The problem with death/black metal today is that most of the
> bands that are around today aren't very good. There are some good ones,
> like Deicide, Six Feet Under, Morbid Angel, and a few others. Most of
> the ones I have heard (and I have heard a lot-I have a radio station in
> my city that has a show on once a week dedicated totally to death/black
> metal) don't have very good melodies or rythyms. Most of the time it
> just sounds like a bunch of deep bass and noise. Death metal has the
> potential to be very good. If there were more bands as good as the ones
> I've listed above (and a few more) then I'd be a huge fan of death
> myself (actually I can't say much on Morbid Angel's account, I've only
> heard Domination, tell me if the other's are like that one). As for
> Pantera, they are a very good band because they really accomplish what
> they are trying to do with their songs. They really get across their
> rage, aggression, and brutality-not necesarily in their lyrics (although
> there are some good lyrics, and Phil is the perfect singer for this
> music) but in their music mostly. It would be very difficult to replace
> any member of that band and have them be as good as they are right now.
> As for calling them "false", I think I understand why you're saying that
> now. You think they are dishonest to the public about their past. They
> have never once denied what they did in the 80s, in fact, in an
> interview with metal edge dimebag was asked about it and said that those
> were some of the funnest days of his life. He said they had a great
> time back then, but also stated that they changed because they were
> trying to be like everyone else. They realized that they wanted to do
> something themselves without following everyone else and created their
> own thing, and evolved from thier previous Power metal album into the
> power groove on Cowboys from Hell. Whenever they say Cowboys was their
> first album, what they alway say is that Cowboys was their first MAJOR
> LABEL album, which is totally true. They don't have to talk about their
> bad points(the glam stuff), in fact any band in their right mind (from
> black metal to christian rock) doesn't talk about their bad points
> either. However, if pantera was asked about those days, they don't deny
> them, as proved in Metal Edge's interview with dimebag. Finally, I just
> want to say, lets stop all this stupid bullshit fighting and just listen
> to what we want to. If you like death/black stuff, go listen to it, I
> won't stop you, in fact I didn't start talking about it until someone
> from the black/death group started talking shit about Pantera. If you
> like Pantera, great, go listen to them. Just don't start going off on
> what other people listen to unless it comes up and you can justify it
> without being a totall dickhead or asshole.
>
> -Chris
>
> P.S. By the way, I'm not just doing this cause I'm a Pantera fan. In
> fact, I had heard a lot of death stuff before I heard Pantera. I just
> beleive all metal fans should stick together to show those corporate
> fuckheads at the record companies and MTV and the radio stations that we
> won't conform to what they tell us to do and the metal will never die.
--
"same predetermined pattern , game, rules
uniformity, conformity
how long can you hide the truth?
now you've settled down
reflected on your past
the pose, the look, the stance; all part of the act"
"Pseudo Youth"
Napalm Death
The L. A. Underground Death/ Black Metal Pages
http://www.geocities.com/sunsetstrip/alley/7611/index.html
Laurent Seiter
locu...@earthlink.net wrote:
> Yes, Pantera is hard core metal.
Now, once and for all, I OWN THE UNIVERSAL MUSICAL KNOWLEDGE and the only
"hardcore" side of Pantera is the similarity of haircut and voice between their
singer and Henry Rollins, who's almost as stupid (but he wrote books, at least,
and did 3 great albums in his entire career, and this is 3 more than
PANTERA).If you think that ANTHRAX is hardcore, then yes, PANTERA is
hardcore... but again, go listen to RATTUS, MASSAPPEAL or DECLINO and try to
find any of these riffs that lead PANTERA to MTV.
Real (c) "hardcore metal" :
EXCEL, the ACCUSED, D.R.I., SACRILEGE BC, NO PIGS, GRAVEYARD RODEO, CRO-MAGS,
HERESY, BORN WITHOUT A FACE, LUDICHRIST...
> Yes, pantera is extremely brutal and angry. I've heard a lot of death
> and, yes, pantera gets a lot more anger and brutaity across than any
> death band I've heard.
You can't be serious, or you only heard SIX FEET UNDER (which I like a lot, btw
! kill me). Try CRYPTOPSY, for example.
> difference between surviving and selling out. Black/death concentrates
> just as much on image as pantera does.
True (tm).
Pigwalk666
In article <6079dr$1...@camel3.mindspring.com>, xy...@mindspring.com (Billy
Joe Bob Jr.) writes:
>most punk...
>
>the list goes on...
>
>which of those bands have you heard, out of curiosity?
>
>
Have you heard any of those new punk bands coming out nowadays? My friends
dog gets madder when he don't have water.....
Sneed666
Pigwalk666 wrote:
> Have you heard any of those new punk bands coming out nowadays? My friends
> dog gets madder when he don't have water.....
>
> Pigwalk666 - AGFF Pimp Lord
"Punk's not dead, it just sucks now."
I have to make a sticker of that...
SNEED (formerly 666)