The Best Gothic Albums Of All Time?
Mr. Disco
Albums Of All Time':
Bauhaus: In The Flat Field
Black Sabbath: Paranoid
Nick Cave & The Bad Seeds: Tender Prey
The Cult: Dreamtime
The Cure: Pornography
Curve: Doppelgänger
Marilyn Manson: Antichrist Superstar
The Mission: Children
Nine Inch Nails: The Downward Spiral
Siouxsie & The Banshees: Juju
The Sisters Of Mercy: First And Last And Always
Richard Wagner: The Best Of Wagner
As you can see there's no mention of JOY DIVISION what so ever! I thouth Joy
Division was Goths, but perhaps I'm wrong?
--
Best regards
Mr. Disco/Nicklas E.
n...@worldonline.dk
"Jo mere man ved,
desto mere tvivler man"
Goethe
ken welch
Mr. Disco wrote in message ...
Never tought of JD as goths but bugger me (no Do'nt) i hav'nt listened to
"In The Flat Field" by Bauhaus for donkeys years, thanks for reminding me,
i'll spend a dreary 40 minutes or so playing it later (god help me).
Ken.
"he said please take your dirty pillows away from me"
ajw...@ix.netcom.com
>
> In the december issue of Q Magazine there's a guide to 'The Best Gothic
> Albums Of All Time':
>
> Bauhaus: In The Flat Field
> Black Sabbath: Paranoid
> Nick Cave & The Bad Seeds: Tender Prey
> The Cult: Dreamtime
> The Cure: Pornography
> Curve: Doppelgänger
> Marilyn Manson: Antichrist Superstar
> The Mission: Children
> Nine Inch Nails: The Downward Spiral
> Siouxsie & The Banshees: Juju
> The Sisters Of Mercy: First And Last And Always
> Richard Wagner: The Best Of Wagner
what the hell is "gothic"? oh I know...it means a record that has
nothing to say, but cloaks it in tons of reverb and compression... yeah,
thats the ticket... good thing Closer ISNT on there...
Eddie Colton
about anything. ever think of that?
-E. Colton http://www.redrival.com/octoberzone/
[Please remove the sand before sending me e-mail.]
fernando
<nme@_remove_worldonline.dk> wrote:
>In the december issue of Q Magazine there's a guide to 'The Best Gothic
>Albums Of All Time':
>
>Bauhaus: In The Flat Field
>Black Sabbath: Paranoid
>Nick Cave & The Bad Seeds: Tender Prey
>The Cult: Dreamtime
>The Cure: Pornography
>Curve: Doppelg”nger
>Marilyn Manson: Antichrist Superstar
>The Mission: Children
>Nine Inch Nails: The Downward Spiral
>Siouxsie & The Banshees: Juju
>The Sisters Of Mercy: First And Last And Always
>Richard Wagner: The Best Of Wagner
>
>As you can see there's no mention of JOY DIVISION what so ever! I thouth Joy
>Division was Goths, but perhaps I'm wrong?
I agree that Joy Division does not fit into the above categorization... and
the others are quite well related, perhaps with the exception of TheCure's
record, as that is more of a tip to Joy Division's
sound than the others.
I would list JoyDivision with other bands... not quite in Goth, but with
Romanticism.
cheers!
-fernando
:: Modify email on reply by removing my name and period ::
-*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*-
Through the black port, the cyclone sailed her heart, where the bora blows
a wind that cries through the town, across the sea, she says she won't go.
___________________ "Cyclone" :: Silver Soul :: And Also The Trees :: 1998
-*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*-
andrew fleming
in all my experience with JD (which has been a lot) i have never seen
any evidence that they identified with any sort of incipient (and maybe
even insipid) goth/gothic scene or identity. ian curtis certainly wrote
his share of dark and disturbing lyrics, but come on- they were a
punk/post-punk band! one should expect they'd've been generally
dissatisfied, both with society and with the failures/invalidation of
earlier music heroes (remember, all the members except for stephen
morris met at a sex pistols gig... who were quickly becoming a joke even
as joy division was becoming a recognized band).
OTOH.... i was a little disturbed when people would walk into my
apartment, see the _closer_ album cover poster, and start talking to me
about siouxsie/NIN/whatever goth band of the moment (no disrespect to
either of these bands).... it seems like there are more goths and goth
fans who have decided to call JD a goth/punk band than there are punks,
new wave and post punk fans who would do the same...... seems to be a
pretty large rift in perceptions of JD.
that said... why am i writing this? not like i'd convince any of you
that JD were or were not goths, it seems like those of you who aren't
goths will continue to deny any gothic/goth elements and those of you
who are goths will continue to co-opt them into the goth/gothic
scene... though i think it has been more fruitful than damaging to
their reputation that JD's music has continued to influence musicians on
both sides of the debate.
--
=================
andrew j. fleming
ajf...@is7.nyu.edu
we start with the recognition that the history/theory distinction
is meaningless (mere propaganda), as every historiography rests on
an implicit theory and every theory is imbedded in a historical site.
-john corbett, _radio dada manifesto_
ajw...@ix.netcom.com
>
> well...
>
> in all my experience with JD (which has been a lot) i have never seen
> any evidence that they identified with any sort of incipient (and maybe
> even insipid) goth/gothic scene or identity. ian curtis certainly wrote
> his share of dark and disturbing lyrics, but come on- they were a
> punk/post-punk band!
Hear, hear! spot on... I think we have Bernard Pierre Wolf and Saville's
ill timed obsession with stonecut type to thank for the whole Goth
bullsheet... If not for those images that have become associated with
the band, there would never be a link at all... because there is
absolutely none in the music or in the attitudes behind it...
>one should expect they'd've been generally
> dissatisfied, both with society and with the failures/invalidation of
> earlier music heroes (remember, all the members except for stephen
> morris met at a sex pistols gig... who were quickly becoming a joke even
> as joy division was becoming a recognized band).
>
> OTOH.... i was a little disturbed when people would walk into my
> apartment, see the _closer_ album cover poster, and start talking to me
> about siouxsie/NIN/whatever goth band of the moment (no disrespect to
> either of these bands)....
Hey, remember... people are idiots... and NIN deserves PLENTY of
disrespect...
>it seems like there are more goths and goth
> fans who have decided to call JD a goth/punk band than there are punks,
> new wave and post punk fans who would do the same...... seems to be a
> pretty large rift in perceptions of JD.
It just shows that people who enjoy "goth" music dont really push past
appearances... since that movement is all about cloaking and posing,
thats all that ultimately matters... and yeah, I know... I'm going to
get plenty of mail from "serious Goths" who tell me that I dont
understand their lifestyle and that it is really more than whiteface and
bad lacy black clothing... yeah right... its a purely suburban middle
class affliction which ensures conformity via the appearance of
difference... of course nowadays we have these Goths who snap and blow
their school away, but I dont think there are any bands that
specifically cater to that faction... yet
A.
MorsImage
>get plenty of mail from "serious Goths" who tell me that I dont
>understand their lifestyle and that it is really more than whiteface and
>bad lacy black clothing... yeah right... its a purely suburban middle
>class affliction which ensures conformity via the appearance of
>difference...
generalize much? i'm not even goth, or anything close to it for that matter,
but even i can see the gaping stereotypes and falsehoods in your comments. you
had no reason to go out of your way to go off on goth culture. grow up.
--josh
ajw...@ix.netcom.com
Hey if I grow up any more I'll be dead...
and what in the world is "goth culture"?
fernando
(Eddie Colton) wrote:
>>>Black Sabbath: Paranoid
>>>Nick Cave & The Bad Seeds: Tender Prey
>>>The Cult: Dreamtime
>>>Curve: Doppelgînger
>>>Marilyn Manson: Antichrist Superstar
>>>Nine Inch Nails: The Downward Spiral
>>>Richard Wagner: The Best Of Wagner
>
>>I agree that Joy Division does not fit into the above categorization... and
>>the others are quite well related
>
>You mean to tell me you think the above bands are
>more related to goth than JD? MM, NIN, Curve, The Cult,
>WAGNER? BLACK SABBATH? hello...
hello?
I think what I said is true to me... the bands listed above can be quite
related.
What is your beef?
Eddie Colton
>>Nick Cave & The Bad Seeds: Tender Prey
>>The Cult: Dreamtime
>>Marilyn Manson: Antichrist Superstar
>>Nine Inch Nails: The Downward Spiral
>>Richard Wagner: The Best Of Wagner
>I agree that Joy Division does not fit into the above categorization... and
>the others are quite well related
You mean to tell me you think the above bands are
more related to goth than JD? MM, NIN, Curve, The Cult,
WAGNER? BLACK SABBATH? hello...
-E. Colton http://www.redrival.com/octoberzone/
Andrew Stewart
Colton) wrote:
>gee, maybe Q magazine doesn't know anything
>about anything. ever think of that?
Or maybe ascribing iintelligence to magazines is silly. Why do so many
people miss the obvious point - what is written in a magazine
generally expresses the opinion of one specific writer, not everyone
who ever wrote for the mag.
(np: David Bowie & Queen - Under Pressure 99)
____________________________
"In 1999, there are those too young to remember British Rail, tenbob notes
or the time you could uy a new David Bowie album without a creeping sense of
dread. We may be stuck with privatised railways and decimal currency, but
the Dame's latest long-player is, delightfully, just as good as they used to be.
'hours...' is a richly textured and emotionally vivid set....
This time around, Bowie sounds influenced by nobody except himself, and he couldn't have picked a better role model."
Q review of "hours...", David Bowie's new album.
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@ngel-X......
Mr. Disco <nme@_remove_worldonline.dk> schreef in berichtnieuws
wHM24.97$YS5...@news.get2net.dk...
> In the december issue of Q Magazine there's a guide to 'The Best Gothic
> Albums Of All Time':
>
> Bauhaus: In The Flat Field
> Nick Cave & The Bad Seeds: Tender Prey
> The Cult: Dreamtime
> Curve: Doppelgänger
> The Mission: Children
> The Sisters Of Mercy: First And Last And Always
>
Joy
> Division was Goths, but perhaps I'm wrong?
>
> desto mere tvivler man"
> Goethe
>
@ngel-X
ajw...@ix.netcom.com
>
> > I would never imply that JD were a *typical* goth band. But they were
> > one. Maybe even the only one, because they were doing something
> > outlandish, dark, mysterious, misunderstood, something that was not
> > commonplace at the time, something that was not fully accepted by
> > everyone, and certainly something that no one else was doing.
>
> WOW, SO DOES THAT MAKE TE VELVETS GOTH TOO, SINCE THEY WERE
> "OUTLANDISH, DARK, MYSTERIOUS, MISUNDERSTOOD, NOT COMMONPLACE"? ??
> HOW ABOUT SOMETHING LIKE BITCHES BREW BY MILES DAVIS?? IT WAS
> VERY OUTLANDISH, DARK, MYSTERIOUS AND NOT COMMONPLACE NOR ACCEPTED
> AT THE TIME.... HOW ABOUT JOHNNY CASH; HE DRESSES IN BLACK AND SINGS
> SONGS ABOUT DEATH...OR ROBERT JOHNSON THE OLD BLUES MAN, HE SOLD
> HIS SOUL TO THE DEVIL YA KNOW...HOW MUCH MORE FRIGGIN' GOTH CAN
> YOU GET.
Wow... so know I know what these twits were talking about when they talk
about "Goth Culture"... its really amazing... it truly is a "Goth" world
now that I think about it... it touches all aspects of life in ways that
I hadnt even considered... and I was so silly to think it was a weak-ass
suburban middle class movement... how wrong I can be! Picasso was a
Goth! Jackson Pollock was a Goth! Kafka was a Goth!
we are all Goth when you come down to it
> SO IS ANYTHING THAT IS DARK, MYSTERIOUS, MISUNDERSTOOD,
> AND UNACCEPTED CONSTRUED AS GOTH? CUZ I DROPPED A
> TURD THIS MORNING THAT MIGHT BE GOTH......
No I think that was more along the lines of Grindcore...
> MY OPION ONLY!
As always appreciated!
> BOOMSHAKALAKA!!
bet that was the sound echoing off your bathroom tiles this morning...
ever consider switching to decaf? It worked wonders for me
A.
manish_...@my-deja.com
> I would never imply that JD were a *typical* goth band. But they were
> one. Maybe even the only one, because they were doing something
> outlandish, dark, mysterious, misunderstood, something that was not
> commonplace at the time, something that was not fully accepted by
> everyone, and certainly something that no one else was doing.
WOW, SO DOES THAT MAKE TE VELVETS GOTH TOO, SINCE THEY WERE
"OUTLANDISH, DARK, MYSTERIOUS, MISUNDERSTOOD, NOT COMMONPLACE"? ??
HOW ABOUT SOMETHING LIKE BITCHES BREW BY MILES DAVIS?? IT WAS
VERY OUTLANDISH, DARK, MYSTERIOUS AND NOT COMMONPLACE NOR ACCEPTED
AT THE TIME.... HOW ABOUT JOHNNY CASH; HE DRESSES IN BLACK AND SINGS
SONGS ABOUT DEATH...OR ROBERT JOHNSON THE OLD BLUES MAN, HE SOLD
HIS SOUL TO THE DEVIL YA KNOW...HOW MUCH MORE FRIGGIN' GOTH CAN
YOU GET.
SO IS ANYTHING THAT IS DARK, MYSTERIOUS, MISUNDERSTOOD,
AND UNACCEPTED CONSTRUED AS GOTH? CUZ I DROPPED A
TURD THIS MORNING THAT MIGHT BE GOTH......
MY OPION ONLY!
BOOMSHAKALAKA!!
MANISH
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
MorsImage
it.
--josh
ajw...@ix.netcom.com
"Generally understood"? you need to get out a bit more...
Eddie Colton
>> it.
>
hm, something tells me you're not excluded from that idea.
-eddie colton. http://www.redrival.com/octoberzone/
[please remove the sand before sending me e-mail.]
ajw...@ix.netcom.com
>
> In article <19991209104551...@ng-fi1.aol.com>,
> mors...@aol.com (MorsImage) wrote:
> > you guys, joy division is generally understood to be gothic punk. so get over
> > it.
>
> accept what is generally understood and move on...
Hey I dont accept this "general understanding" in the least... sure, if
you ask some brain addled teenager who Joy Division were, he might spurt
out something lame like "dude, werent they like... Goths"? but ask
anyone who knows anything whatsoever about music and you would never get
that connection... I mean I know people from all walks of life, even
younger kids, and all of them know where the band fits into the big
picture (mainly because I set them straight) ;)
>but wait... I would
> have not known that some turds could be gothic, so I am glad that this
> discussion did go through after all.
>
> By the way, what is the point of accepting what is generally understood?
More to the point, go look up "Gothic" in any dictionary and find me
something that alludes to Joy Divisions work...
A.
NinthWave
with a group. The problem here is that historically speaking Joy Division
came from the post punk scene they actually started in the punk scene but
are credited by most rock historians as being the actual start of what would
become new wave. Still the labels, but in fairness Goth is a label in music
that has traded hats through time I mean the Cure is gothic or is it pop or
is it new wave the label thing goes around Dead Can Dance is gothic though
their audience is so broad you can not pin it down and a Dead Can Dance
concert was like seeing the streets gather a little bit of everyone.
To give justice to the above bands and why I cited them they are all
creative focussing on the music more than the economics or selling of the
music which really defies labels.
I honestly think the hardest part about trying to classify bands like Joy
Division is they came from a time period where the punk mentality of be
yourself and do your own thing created many styles of music. You can see
the influence of Joy Division across the music industry that is beyond a
label just dedication to an art form. That is more important than the
label. But then again the little record stores get nervous if they can't
see you buy a JD album and not convince you to buy that new Cleopatra
compilation.
Me I think whatever you call it, the music is better than Brittany Spears
and her breast implants.
Jeff
<ajw...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message news:385041...@ix.netcom.com...
fernando
mors...@aol.com (MorsImage) wrote:
> you guys, joy division is generally understood to be gothic punk. so get over
> it.
Man... I wish someone would have said this earlier on... We can just
accept what is generally understood and move on... but wait... I would
have not known that some turds could be gothic, so I am glad that this
discussion did go through after all.
By the way, what is the point of accepting what is generally understood?
-fernando
-*-
"Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited.
Imagination encircles the world."
-- Albert Einstein
"Live out of your imagination, not your history."
-Stephen Covey
Eddie Colton
I'm shocked.
>even younger kids, and all of them know where the band
>fits into the big picture (mainly because I set them straight) ;)
Would you mind filling us young kids in as well? Because while
everyone here seems to know Joy Division aren't goth, nobody
seems to know exactly what they are. or, as you said, where they
fit into the 'big picture,' whatever that is.
>More to the point, go look up "Gothic" in any dictionary and find me
>something that alludes to Joy Divisions work...
Okay.
>Goth
>2 A rude or uncivilized person.
Well what do you know, everyone IS goth!
>gothic
>3 Of or in a literary genre characterized by an atmosphere of mystery
>and gloom, violence, bizarre characters and happenings, etc.
Even some uneducated Goths will tell you that the term for the
movement itself came from someone who described Joy Division as thus.
That's pure BS of course, but the word was undoubtedly used to
describe the nature of the band's music time and again.
If Ian's lyrics resemble this literary style, then why would the band
not also be described as gothic? Hmm? Explain please. Again it comes
down to people not wanting to think of their dearly beloved band of
Mancs as a load of makeup wearing gits. Well okay, but to describe
them simply as a rock band is just as much an insult. Merely a rock
band you say? Hah!
I say they are gothic, I do not say they are a Goth band. There is
obviously a difference. So I do agree with the popular opinion that
they are not a Goth Band, but to say they aren't gothic in the least
is terribly nearsighted. Why do you listen to them then? Because
they're so poppy?
ncf...@neosoft.com
you had me all the way till the end, man...
It's for things like this that the mute button on my TV was invented.
ajw...@ix.netcom.com
>
> >I mean I know people from all walks of life
>
> I'm shocked.
I know you all think I'm ensconced up here on my throne, but I really DO
enjoy all of you amusing little humans and I often get out and mix it
up....
The only category I would put Joy Divison in is the only one that
adequately describes them and their music... its a word that is often
used but rarely understood...
"European"
Raithen
get over
> > > it.
> >
> > Man... I wish someone would have said this earlier on... We can just
> > accept what is generally understood and move on...
>
> you ask some brain addled teenager who Joy Division were, he might spurt
> out something lame like "dude, werent they like... Goths"? but ask
> anyone who knows anything whatsoever about music and you would never get
> younger kids, and all of them know where the band fits into the big
> picture (mainly because I set them straight) ;)
>
> > have not known that some turds could be gothic, so I am glad that this
> > discussion did go through after all.
> >
> > By the way, what is the point of accepting what is generally understood?
>
> something that alludes to Joy Divisions work...
Since when did the dictionary definition for "gothic" ever apply *literally*
to the sound of goth music? You make it sound like there is a rule book
defining exactly what the parameters of gothdom are.
Gothic music has many flavours to it. The common denominator is that all of
the various flavours of goth music tend to have a morose, dour and moody
element to it. The music is *dark*.
Is Joy Division a *dark* band? You bet your ass they are!! I seriously
can't think of one JD tune that is uplifting in the slightest. Not too
mention that they've been covered by numerous goth bands (if you can
consider NiN goth, think "Dead Souls"), been on several gothic music
compilations, etc.
Can you honestly say a song like "Shadowplay" or "Isolation" aren't in
spirit gothic?! Come on!!! Two nuggets that are just as gothic as SOM's
"This Corrosion" or Bauhaus' "She's In Parties" if you ask me. Even more
so.
I think denial of JDs gothic flavour usually is a result of the fact that
they certainly didn't dress the part. Just because you don't look like a
member of Marilyn Manson, The Misfits, or hell, Robert Smith himself,
doesn't mean you aren't goth. There's more to gothdom then jet black hair,
make up, or the ability to quote Anne Rice verbatim.
It's apparent to me that a lot of people here are quite anti-goth for some
reason. People get over it. They *are* "generally understood" to be gothic
in style... they were innovators of dark, sombre music and are right up
there with bands like Bauhaus and Sisters Of Mercy as forefathers of that
dreaded style of music beginning with "g".
I suppose it can be said that this is merely opinion... but it's an opinion
that seems to permeate the majority of people who seem to care about
categorizing musical styles, and what bands fit into what genre . Frankly,
I don't see what the big deal is or why people have such an extreme reaction
whenever "gothic" is intoned in a conversation. <shrugs>
Just because you listen to a goth band doesn't mean you're goth. So don't
worry, breathe easy, and listen to "Love Will Tear Us Apart" without fear of
suddenly sprouting overly large incisors and a penchance for a daily glass
of O positive.
Enough of my rhetoric (babble?).
Cheers,
-matt
rai...@cgocable.net
ICQ: 24819388
PS: And I'll be damned if JD doesn't sound more stereotypically goth than
The Cure. I'll never understand anyone who says otherwise.
ncf...@neosoft.com
wrote some stuff that I axed:
>PS: And I'll be damned if JD doesn't sound more stereotypically goth than
>The Cure. I'll never understand anyone who says otherwise.
I've kept my mouth shut till this point...
Funny thing about all this is, Smith's veritable hatred of the whole
goth scene. I read a huge interview conducted by Marc Almond with
some early goth pioneers (incidently JD was mentioned as an influence
although not goth per se). Siouxsie Sioux kept on trying to goad
Smith into admitting his role, but Smith insisted that the whole thing
was REALLY stupid. I love what an anti-hero this guy is (even if his
music doesn't really do it for me anymore).
Anyway, if a bunch of people want to call JD goth, well their loss.
Might as well call VU punk, or James Brown disco. The only truly
annoying thing about the whole thing is that goth seems to be one of
the few 'music categories' that can't seem to come up with
satisfactory criteria to distnguish itself. As a mathmatician I'd
point out that anything that can't be well defined is meaningless.
Draw your own conclusions...
Hmm, still love watching highschool girls with a lot of make-up and
wearing little more than loungerie.
ajw...@ix.netcom.com
>
> On Fri, 10 Dec 1999 22:45:21 GMT, "Raithen" <rai...@cgocable.net>
> wrote some stuff that I axed:
>
> >PS: And I'll be damned if JD doesn't sound more stereotypically goth than
> >The Cure. I'll never understand anyone who says otherwise.
>
> I've kept my mouth shut till this point...
>
> Funny thing about all this is, Smith's veritable hatred of the whole
> goth scene. I read a huge interview conducted by Marc Almond with
> some early goth pioneers (incidently JD was mentioned as an influence
> although not goth per se). Siouxsie Sioux kept on trying to goad
> Smith into admitting his role, but Smith insisted that the whole thing
> was REALLY stupid. I love what an anti-hero this guy is (even if his
> music doesn't really do it for me anymore).
>
> Anyway, if a bunch of people want to call JD goth, well their loss.
> Might as well call VU punk, or James Brown disco. The only truly
> annoying thing about the whole thing is that goth seems to be one of
> the few 'music categories' that can't seem to come up with
> satisfactory criteria to distnguish itself.
Thats because Goth as it is known is a pose trying to come off as
substance... so naturally its members cant own up... I would say that
Robert Smith is closer to what I think of as Gothic, because he has no
substance... he is a pose trying self-conciously to come off as
something "different"... but I dont really think of Robert Smith as
Gothic, just as lame... Gothic crap to me is the Bahaus garbage... the
suburban kids who wanted to be Marc Bolan or in the Rocky Horror show,
but they had no talent for anything so they formed bands...
>As a mathmatician I'd
> point out that anything that can't be well defined is meaningless.
Actually as a layman I would have to say the only things that are truly
meaningful are the things that cant be defined...
> Draw your own conclusions...
>
> Hmm, still love watching highschool girls with a lot of make-up and
> wearing little more than loungerie.
Is that anything like a "boulangerie"?
Eddie Colton
>adequately describes them and their music... its a word that is often
>used but rarely understood...
>
>"European"
are you saying they smell?
what about Ian's American impression?
Raithen
> >The Cure. I'll never understand anyone who says otherwise.
>
> I've kept my mouth shut till this point...
>
> Funny thing about all this is, Smith's veritable hatred of the whole
> goth scene. I read a huge interview conducted by Marc Almond with
> some early goth pioneers (incidently JD was mentioned as an influence
> although not goth per se). Siouxsie Sioux kept on trying to goad
> Smith into admitting his role, but Smith insisted that the whole thing
> was REALLY stupid. I love what an anti-hero this guy is (even if his
> music doesn't really do it for me anymore).
(Robert Smith is a hypocrite if there ever was one. Enough about him.)
Are Kraftwerk synthpop, or an influence?? It's hard to label the pioneers,
isn't it?? I consider Kraftwerk synthpop, while others consider them merely
the bridge that bands like Depeche Mode, Soft Cell, Human League crossed...
(I hope your following me with this not so subtle allusion to JD and
gothdom... my brain is rather fractured at this moment being that it's
4am... lol)
Anyway, it's all in your point of view I suppose. Frankly, I think it can't
be denied that many people consider them gothic... so at least, it's not a
notion to be dismissed lightly is it?
> Anyway, if a bunch of people want to call JD goth, well their loss.
> Might as well call VU punk, or James Brown disco. The only truly
> annoying thing about the whole thing is that goth seems to be one of
> the few 'music categories' that can't seem to come up with
> satisfactory criteria to distnguish itself.
Ahh... but weren't the Velvet Underground punk?! Didn't they define
everything that punk was about? Underground(!), anti-establishment, et al.?
Not exactly an accessable band were they? Sure they didn't look like a
prototypical punk band (a la Sex Pistols), but who cares? Content over
image my friend. Hrmm... that's a little ironic I suppose when considering
the whole Andy Warhol and Nico phase, but as I mentioned before it's 4am,
leave me be!!
> As a mathmatician I'd point out that anything that can't be well defined
is meaningless.
In mathematics your dealing with logic... in music your dealing with
subjective opinion. Definition when dealing with art is meaningless, not
too mention an effort in futility.
As for musical categories? They seem to be becoming more and more blurred
these days. "Alternative", "Pop", "Techno", "Industrial"... what the hell
are they anymore??
> Draw your own conclusions...
>
> Hmm, still love watching highschool girls with a lot of make-up and
> wearing little more than loungerie.
My conclusion is that I wholely agree with this last point. ;-)
Cheers (time for sleep),
-matt
Raithen
> suburban kids who wanted to be Marc Bolan or in the Rocky Horror show,
> but they had no talent for anything so they formed bands...
Exactly... it's all opinion. Some people think JD is gothic, some people
don't. Who's to say who's right and who's wrong? In my opinion their music
is very, VERY gothic.
<hums "Bela Lugosi" then promptly falls into a comatose state (it's 4am... I
mentioned that earlier didn't I...ZZzzzzzzz)>
-ZzzZzzzz
tortels
ajw...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>
> Hey I dont accept this "general understanding" in the least... sure, if
> you ask some brain addled teenager who Joy Division were, he might spurt
> out something lame like "dude, werent they like... Goths"? but ask
> anyone who knows anything whatsoever about music and you would never get
> that connection... I mean I know people from all walks of life, even
> younger kids, and all of them know where the band fits into the big
> picture (mainly because I set them straight) ;)
>
I Know a lot about music (LOL)
.....so basically JD came out of the punkmovement and they played gothic-like music;
that means: many people who like to dress in black and listen to very dark, suicidal
music also like JD!
If you say Sisters Of Mercy, The Cure, Siouxsie.....then you must also say Joy
Divsion. It's about black, dark music that came out of the punk and was influenced by
the dark eighties....
Younger kids and JD???? forget it: They don't even know NO (except Blue Monday maybe).
All they do is listen to fucking Sky Radio, fucking Maria Carey and fucking R&B!
Evan Ward
(15) have no idea who jd/no is, but there are a few who i hang out with
regularly who love joy division, new order, bauhaus, and lots of other stuff
from "before our time." i know you were making a generalisation, and i know
that i am usually an exception, so i guess theres no point to this post. if
you read this far, im proud of you.
--
and when i squinted, the world seemed rose-tinted, and angels appeared to
descend. to my surprise, with half-closed eyes, things looked even better
than when they were open.
evan ward
elde...@home.com
"tortels" <tor...@casema.net> wrote in message
news:3852872B...@casema.net...
fernando
>ajw...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>
>>
>> Hey I dont accept this "general understanding" in the least... sure, if
>> you ask some brain addled teenager who Joy Division were, he might spurt
>> out something lame like "dude, werent they like... Goths"? but ask
>> anyone who knows anything whatsoever about music and you would never get
>> that connection... I mean I know people from all walks of life, even
>> younger kids, and all of them know where the band fits into the big
>> picture (mainly because I set them straight) ;)
>>
>
>I Know a lot about music (LOL)
>.....so basically JD came out of the punkmovement and they played
gothic-like music;
>that means: many people who like to dress in black and listen to very
dark, suicidal
>music also like JD!
Well, I do not see dark is gothic, though you can say that gothic is dark.
That is,
dark is much more wide ranging than gothic. It seems that Goth is like
Alternative --
a label that got used on something, with a meaning that puzzles everyone.
>If you say Sisters Of Mercy, The Cure, Siouxsie.....then you must also say Joy
>Divsion. It's about black, dark music that came out of the punk and was
influenced by
>the dark eighties....
Wait... How was Joy Division influenced by the dark 80s? Otherwise, the
other groups got
darker after JD's demise.
>Younger kids and JD???? forget it: They don't even know NO (except Blue
Monday maybe).
>All they do is listen to fucking Sky Radio, fucking Maria Carey and
fucking R&B!
This is jumping a bit to a conclusion... and who cares anyway?
Captain Black
tell you that there was no such thing as Goth as a scene or genre at the
time.
It kind of developed from Siouxsie Sioux's fascination with camp horror and
was always very tongue-in-cheek. Girls began to copy her wild hairstyle and
clothes and boys saw Robert Smith and did the same. Hence, Goth was born.
Unfortunately, some took it a little too seriously
Where Joy Division do not fit in is that they were never camp. You don't get
many wry smiles from listening to their work. Plus look at the sober way
they dressed. If they had an obvious influence it was Kraftwerk and
Eno-period Bowie (particularly Warzawa).
I don't know about the USA (which always seems to be about 20 years behind)
but goths stopped being taken seriously in the UK around 1984. Not that they
ever were much.
Raithen
> tell you that there was no such thing as Goth as a scene or genre at the
> time.
So in other words, Bauhaus aren't goth because the "goth" scene didn't
exist?! That's like saying Kraftwerk aren't electro-pop because the "scene"
didn't exist. That Pink Floyd wasn't truly psychedelic because they were
the pioneers of that style!!
Was Leonardo Da Vinci a renaissance man? Or can he not be considered
renaissance because he was the very catalyst of the renaissance movement?
Did Fritz Lang direct the first science fiction movie when he released
"Metropolis"? Well, that can't be (by your admission) because there was no
such genre at the time!!
> It kind of developed from Siouxsie Sioux's fascination with camp horror
and
> was always very tongue-in-cheek. Girls began to copy her wild hairstyle
and
> clothes and boys saw Robert Smith and did the same. Hence, Goth was born.
> Unfortunately, some took it a little too seriously
Yes, the goth look and style can very well be attributed to Siouxsie, Robert
and the likes of Peter Murphy, et al. But that is only one aspect of the
gothic genre. Style and image.
Look, no one is arguing that JD inspired the image of gothdom, the
vamp/tramp look, but they certainly inspired the mood and sombre style of
music. If one is to look back and apply the general attributes of the
gothic style of music to bands from the past, Joy Division certainly fits
the bill. That is what the argument comes down to.
They bloody well have many gothic elements to their music. Hence they can
be considered, at least in part, such. Was it intentional? No. Does that
matter? No. Accept that a large group of people have a valid argument and
move on.
> Where Joy Division do not fit in is that they were never camp. You don't
get
> many wry smiles from listening to their work. Plus look at the sober way
> they dressed. If they had an obvious influence it was Kraftwerk and
> Eno-period Bowie (particularly Warzawa).
>
> I don't know about the USA (which always seems to be about 20 years
behind)
> but goths stopped being taken seriously in the UK around 1984. Not that
they
> ever were much.
Seems to me that Kraftwerk (Germany) not too mention Jean Michel Jarrre
(France) inspired the whole synthpop, electro movement... Front 242
(Belgium) virtually created EBM, Derrick May and Jeff Mills (USA) are the
pioneers of techno-rave, Skinny Puppy (Canada), Front Line Assembly (Canada)
and Einsturzende Neubaten (Germany) are godfathers of Industrial... the list
goes on and on. Catch my drift?
Granted, UK bands such as Throbbing Gristle (deported!!), Bauhaus and Joy
Division were instrumental in pioneering some of the scenes I've listed, but
there is no way that the UK have *ever* been 20 years ahead musically.
Hell, even The Beatles were influenced by American music...
-matt
Captain Black
Raithen wrote in message ...
>
>So in other words, Bauhaus aren't goth because the "goth" scene didn't
>exist?! That's like saying Kraftwerk aren't electro-pop because the
"scene"
>didn't exist. That Pink Floyd wasn't truly psychedelic because they were
>the pioneers of that style!!
>
>Was Leonardo Da Vinci a renaissance man? Or can he not be considered
>renaissance because he was the very catalyst of the renaissance movement?
>Did Fritz Lang direct the first science fiction movie when he released
>"Metropolis"? Well, that can't be (by your admission) because there was no
>such genre at the time!!
>
Genres evolve over time. Joy Division had nothing to do with the crimped
black hair and studded belt look that was around in about '82 with Bauhaus.
JD merged the sonic assault of punk with the icy cool synths of Kraftwerk
(who weren't 'electro-pop' in 1975, just classically-trained musicians
experimenting with electronics). It's only historians who can pinpoint the
importance of certain works and events and group them into a movement.
>
>Yes, the goth look and style can very well be attributed to Siouxsie,
Robert
>and the likes of Peter Murphy, et al. But that is only one aspect of the
>gothic genre. Style and image.
It was never JD's style and image was my point. You couldn't move for
copyists with deep voices mumbling in dark, sombre tones in the UK around
1981. The fact that New Order had moved on to a style that was a true
indication of their influences proves this. NO may be one of the pioneers of
electronic dance music but that didn't just spring from nowhere. Listen to
'Your Silent Face' and the beginning of 'Trans Europe Express' and spot the
difference.
>
>
>>>Seems to me that Kraftwerk (Germany) not too mention Jean Michel Jarrre
>(France) inspired the whole synthpop, electro movement... Front 242
>(Belgium) virtually created EBM, Derrick May and Jeff Mills (USA) are the
>pioneers of techno-rave, Skinny Puppy (Canada), Front Line Assembly
(Canada)
>and Einsturzende Neubaten (Germany) are godfathers of Industrial... the
list
>goes on and on. Catch my drift?
>
>Granted, UK bands such as Throbbing Gristle (deported!!), Bauhaus and Joy
>Division were instrumental in pioneering some of the scenes I've listed,
but
>there is no way that the UK have *ever* been 20 years ahead musically.
>Hell, even The Beatles were influenced by American music...
>
>-matt
Of course there always have been influential American bands. Television and
Talking Heads meant as much to me as the Pistols. The trouble is those bands
are most definitely in a minority up against the monolithic American
corporate rock culture that was satirised by Beavis and Butthead.
In the past, the UK has been able to move faster because it is smaller (and
likes eccentrics). That might be about to change as the internet destroys
the music business as we've known it. Hopefully.
>
>
Eddie Colton
>tell you that there was no such thing as Goth as a scene or genre at the
>time.
Just because you didn't know about the scene doesn't
mean it didn't exist. There are others who happen to
remember it. And it wasn't solely musical.
Raithen
> black hair and studded belt look that was around in about '82 with
Bauhaus.
> JD merged the sonic assault of punk with the icy cool synths of Kraftwerk
> (who weren't 'electro-pop' in 1975, just classically-trained musicians
> experimenting with electronics). It's only historians who can pinpoint the
> importance of certain works and events and group them into a movement.
Only historians eh?! Guess I'm out of my league... ;-)
> >Yes, the goth look and style can very well be attributed to Siouxsie,
> Robert
> >and the likes of Peter Murphy, et al. But that is only one aspect of the
> >gothic genre. Style and image.
>
> It was never JD's style and image was my point. You couldn't move for
> copyists with deep voices mumbling in dark, sombre tones in the UK around
> 1981. The fact that New Order had moved on to a style that was a true
> indication of their influences proves this. NO may be one of the pioneers
of
> electronic dance music but that didn't just spring from nowhere. Listen to
> 'Your Silent Face' and the beginning of 'Trans Europe Express' and spot
the
> difference.
Exactly. Kraftwerk were electro... or rather, they were the beginning of
that movement. Much like Joy Division are at the root of Gothic music, New
Wave, etc. In other words, just because you are the pioneer doesn't mean
you aren't a part of the style. One can trace the roots of gothic music to
two bands: Bauhaus and Joy Division. Sisters Of Mercy, Siouxsie, The
Cure... these are all bands that would further develop the gothic genre.
More stylistically than musically... Curtis and Murphy set the standard
sonically... inadvertantly or not.
> Of course there always have been influential American bands. Television
and
> Talking Heads meant as much to me as the Pistols. The trouble is those
bands
> are most definitely in a minority up against the monolithic American
> corporate rock culture that was satirised by Beavis and Butthead.
>
> In the past, the UK has been able to move faster because it is smaller
(and
> likes eccentrics).
That's debatable. <shrugs> Anyhow, I'm not really a fan of music from the
US... I was merely pointing out that the UK are not, and never have been,
"20 years" ahead of the game musically. I was also pointing to the fact
that the UK hasn't exactly been the most innovative of nations either. But
anyway...
Opinion, opinion, and more opinion... :-)
Cheers,
-matt
ajw...@ix.netcom.com
>
> As one of the older readers who was a teenager when JD were about, I can
> tell you that there was no such thing as Goth as a scene or genre at the
> time.
Thank you very much... the closest to any sort of 'movement" was the
raincoat brigade, whom you often saw at the JD shows... but there was no
such thing as Gothic at the time
>
> It kind of developed from Siouxsie Sioux's fascination with camp horror and
> was always very tongue-in-cheek. Girls began to copy her wild hairstyle and
> clothes and boys saw Robert Smith and did the same. Hence, Goth was born.
> Unfortunately, some took it a little too seriously
(laughing) yes as with the Smiths, the audience didnt get the joke, so
they became the joke (actually so did the smiths)
> Where Joy Division do not fit in is that they were never camp. You don't get
> many wry smiles from listening to their work. Plus look at the sober way
> they dressed. If they had an obvious influence it was Kraftwerk and
> Eno-period Bowie (particularly Warzawa).
>
> I don't know about the USA (which always seems to be about 20 years behind)
> but goths stopped being taken seriously in the UK around 1984. Not that they
> ever were much.
Nice to hear someone who actually experienced this stuff pipe up now and
then...
A.
--
"Rarely has reality needed so much to be imagined"
ICQ# 6174686
ajw...@ix.netcom.com
>
> > As one of the older readers who was a teenager when JD were about, I can
> > tell you that there was no such thing as Goth as a scene or genre at the
> > time.
>
> exist?!
But the Goth scene did exist during the later days of Bauhaus and they
basically made their living off of it... Flat Field sort of started all
of that (with its heavily borrowed sound from Wires 154), and all of the
Bauhaus offshoots inherited and flourished because of that audience...
Bahaus was a joke when they started out... time seems to even out a lot
of these distinctions...
ajw...@ix.netcom.com
>
> >As one of the older readers who was a teenager when JD were about, I can
> >tell you that there was no such thing as Goth as a scene or genre at the
> >time.
>
> mean it didn't exist. There are others who happen to
> remember it. And it wasn't solely musical.
>
Mmm... how old were you in 1979? Were you a part of a "Gothic" scene,
because if you were, it was only in your dreams... there was no such
thing at the time
A.
ajw...@ix.netcom.com
>
> how young of kids are you talking about? i admit most of the people my age
> (15) have no idea who jd/no is, but there are a few who i hang out with
> regularly who love joy division, new order, bauhaus, and lots of other stuff
> from "before our time."
Hey I applaud your rejection of Limp Bizkit and The Backstreets in favor
of almost anything from the postpunk period (except maybe 999), but do
yourself a favor and find out about the times in which this music was
made... I guarantee you will enjoy it far more... when I found out about
the Velvets when I was 15, I knew I loved their stuff, but I enjoyed it
a lot more when I learned about what was going on at the time the music
was being made... plus I didnt feel like an idiot when I was talking
about their work with people who knew it ;)
tortels
Evan Ward wrote:
> how young of kids are you talking about? i admit most of the people my age
> (15) have no idea who jd/no is, but there are a few who i hang out with
> regularly who love joy division, new order, bauhaus, and lots of other stuff
> from "before our time." i know you were making a generalisation, and i know
> that i am usually an exception, so i guess theres no point to this post. if
> you read this far, im proud of you.
>
WOW! 15 is very young. It's cool that you know & like NO. It suggests that you
took effort in learning to know more difficult music than the crap you hear on
the radio!
When I was 13 I loved Prince (sorry, everyone makes mistakes; altough "Purple
rain" and "Around the world in a day" are not that bad). At 15 I discovered The
Cure, to discover at 18 that New Order was the real thing! I'm 27 now and I
still think NO is the real thing.
I think it's very nice that someone with the age of 15 likes NO.
In Holland, I experience (off course there always exceptions) that young people
(15-25) hardly know anything about NO & JD. They listen to these terrible Dutch
bands, club house and R&B. The fact that you know more people like yourself
comes from the fact (I think you're from the UK?) that JD & NO are more common
in the UK, at least I think so........
tortels
>If you say Sisters Of Mercy, The Cure, Siouxsie.....then you must also say Joy
>Divsion. It's about black, dark music that came out of the punk and was
influenced by
>the dark eighties....Wait... How was Joy Division influenced by the dark 80s? Otherwise, the
other groups got
darker after JD's demise.
I mean that JD was influenced by it's dark and depressive environment; Manchester in '79-'80, which was a blueprint for all the new wave bands that followed in the eightties.
Evan Ward
who were old enough to listen to new order and depeche mode and the other
old stuff i like. he then got me onto all of it. i actually despise most new
music. in general, i say that there are no good bands that have not been
around for 10 years (before 89, not like a band has to be around for 10
years to be any good). does anyone agree/disagree? im curious as to what
else you people listen to.
--
and when i squinted, the world seemed rose-tinted, and angels appeared to
descend. to my surprise, with half-closed eyes, things looked even better
than when they were open.
evan ward
elde...@home.com
"tortels" <tor...@casema.net> wrote in message
news:38554D32...@casema.net...
Stimpy586
>
> > Genres evolve over time. Joy Division had nothing to do with the crimped
> > black hair and studded belt look that was around in about '82 with
> Bauhaus.
> > JD merged the sonic assault of punk with the icy cool synths of Kraftwerk
> > (who weren't 'electro-pop' in 1975, just classically-trained musicians
> > experimenting with electronics). It's only historians who can pinpoint the
> > importance of certain works and events and group them into a movement.
>
> Only historians eh?! Guess I'm out of my league... ;-)
>
Autobahn.
> > >Yes, the goth look and style can very well be attributed to Siouxsie,
> > Robert
> > >and the likes of Peter Murphy, et al. But that is only one aspect of the
> > >gothic genre. Style and image.
> >
> > It was never JD's style and image was my point. You couldn't move for
> > copyists with deep voices mumbling in dark, sombre tones in the UK around
> > 1981. The fact that New Order had moved on to a style that was a true
> > indication of their influences proves this. NO may be one of the pioneers
> of
> > electronic dance music but that didn't just spring from nowhere. Listen to
> > 'Your Silent Face' and the beginning of 'Trans Europe Express' and spot
> the
> > difference.
>
> Exactly. Kraftwerk were electro... or rather, they were the beginning of
> that movement. Much like Joy Division are at the root of Gothic music, New
> Wave, etc. In other words, just because you are the pioneer doesn't mean
> you aren't a part of the style. One can trace the roots of gothic music to
> two bands: Bauhaus and Joy Division. Sisters Of Mercy, Siouxsie, The
> Cure... these are all bands that would further develop the gothic genre.
As much as I like Bauhaus (and later Love and Rockets) I'd say Siouxsie
has deeper roots then them. Siouxsie was around in 1976, the Banshees
late 70s stuff always seemed like their gloomiest to me, Bela Lagosi's
Dead didn't even come out until October '79. The Cure also started
around the same time 1976 or 77, but I wouldn't label The Cures music as
"gothic" until 1980s 17 Seconds, at first they were a quirky post
punk/new wave band. A Good one though in my opinion, their first singles
were very good and I liked most of Three Imaginery Boys. Sisters Of
Mercy though... yeah they came way way later. They were barely playing
around with a drum machine in 1984. Really though this whole gothic
thing goes way back to the 1700s if not earlier if you think about it.
"Gothic" music is usually very orchestrial.
Stimp
Raithen
> who were old enough to listen to new order and depeche mode and the other
> old stuff i like. he then got me onto all of it. i actually despise most
new
> music. in general, i say that there are no good bands that have not been
> around for 10 years (before 89, not like a band has to be around for 10
> years to be any good). does anyone agree/disagree? im curious as to what
> else you people listen to.
I disagree to a point. There are definitely some exceptional 90s bands:
Apoptygma Berzerk
De/vision
VNV Nation
Covenant
Bjork (ok, so she's not exactly a band... and I'm referring only to her solo
work, not The Sugarcubes, Kukl, etc.)
Radiohead (although I can't stand the whiny/pretentious "Ok, Computer"
album)
Garbage
etc.
Let us not forget Monaco and Electronic (albeit, Twisted Tenderness left
much to be desired...)...
A lot of the really great bands out there you have to search around for
these days. Bands like Apop (Norway), De/Vision (Germany) and Covenant
(Sweden) are all relatively obscure to North America and even the UK. Too
bad really, because they're fantastic.
Synthpop right now seems to be more underground/independent than ever these
days... that's why you really have to look.
> and when i squinted, the world seemed rose-tinted, and angels appeared to
> descend. to my surprise, with half-closed eyes, things looked even better
> than when they were open.
Hey, a quote from my favourite song.... excellent! :-) Check out De/vision
and Apoptygma if you're into Depeche Mode... you won't be disappointed.
-matt
MorsImage
>> around for 10 years (before 89, not like a band has to be around for 10
>> years to be any good). does anyone agree/disagree? im curious as to what
>> else you people listen to.
>
>I disagree to a point. There are definitely some exceptional 90s bands:
>
>Apoptygma Berzerk
>De/vision
>VNV Nation
>Covenant
>Bjork (ok, so she's not exactly a band... and I'm referring only to her solo
>work, not The Sugarcubes, Kukl, etc.)
>Radiohead (although I can't stand the whiny/pretentious "Ok, Computer"
>album)
>Garbage
>etc.
also, don't forget portishead. and iris, for that matter.
Stimpy586
> I disagree to a point. There are definitely some exceptional 90s bands:
>
> Apoptygma Berzerk
I see everyone raving about this band, I don't get it!
> De/vision
Yikes! I'm not touching that with a ten foot pole!
> VNV Nation
> Covenant
Havenot heard enough to make opinion.
> Bjork (ok, so she's not exactly a band... and I'm referring only to her solo
> work, not The Sugarcubes, Kukl, etc.)
I'm just curious, what turns you off about The Sugarcubes? IMHO songs
like Deus and Birthday are pop masterpieces. Just MO though, I just want
to know your reasons against em.
> Radiohead (although I can't stand the whiny/pretentious "Ok, Computer"
> album)
I haven't really tried too hard to get into them but I don't think I
will anytime soon. Its just that every song they pick as a single has
bored me to tears. Especially that one with the video of them in the
grocery store and Karma Police.
> Garbage
I want to dislike them but I can't. Well I do hate that "When I Grow Up"
Pile of shit... but I like alot of their other singles, I may try an
actual album by them one day.
> etc.
>
> Let us not forget Monaco and Electronic (albeit, Twisted Tenderness left
> much to be desired...)...
>
Agreed.
Stimp
ncf...@neosoft.com
wrote:
>music. in general, i say that there are no good bands that have not been
>around for 10 years (before 89, not like a band has to be around for 10
>years to be any good). does anyone agree/disagree? im curious as to what
>else you people listen to.
I dissagree. Perhaps if you're looking for synthpop dance music then
you'll be hard pressed to find anything out there, but mostly that's
due to the fact that it's hard to inovate on such a dated sound.
Music changes with time, and there will always be good music.
Admittedly, the modern recording industry has made it very difficult
to find non-mainstream acts (not to mention the fact that they
co-opted the formly usefull adjective, alternative). Still though, if
you look and listen hard enough you'll find sounds that people will be
remembering just as nostolgically 10 years from now.
Personally, my tatses have drifted away from pop, but I'm sure that AJ
and Manish can recommend some tunes you might like. OTOH, you might
find it interesting to branch out into other musical genres.
Whichever... good luck.
Raithen
> >
> > Apoptygma Berzerk
>
> I see everyone raving about this band, I don't get it!
Their earlier work (Soli Deo Gloria) is a little rough around the edges...
their latest album "7" is a synthpop/EBM masterpiece. Check out their
latest singles "Paranoia" and "Eclipse"... if you don't like those songs,
you truly don't get it... :-)
> > De/vision
>
> Yikes! I'm not touching that with a ten foot pole!
Easily the best synthpop band around. How can you not like songs such as
"Blue Moon" or "We Fly ... Tonight"??
> > VNV Nation
> > Covenant
>
> Havenot heard enough to make opinion
They're both EBM bands... so if you're into heavy dance with some industrial
flavour (or is that the other way around?! lol...) you'll like them.
> > Bjork (ok, so she's not exactly a band... and I'm referring only to her
solo
> > work, not The Sugarcubes, Kukl, etc.)
>
> I'm just curious, what turns you off about The Sugarcubes? IMHO songs
> like Deus and Birthday are pop masterpieces. Just MO though, I just want
> to know your reasons against em.
I *love* The Sugarcubes! "Birthday" and "Deus" are most definitely
classics!! But I was merely pointing to 90s music... The Sugarcubes started
circa 1988.
There are a few tracks from Kukl that give a nice glimpse into what would
later become The Sugarcubes... I suggest you check them out if you have a
chance.
> > Radiohead (although I can't stand the whiny/pretentious "Ok, Computer"
> > album)
>
> I haven't really tried too hard to get into them but I don't think I
> will anytime soon. Its just that every song they pick as a single has
> bored me to tears. Especially that one with the video of them in the
> grocery store and Karma Police.
In my opinion, "The Bends" is one of the top 5 albums of the 90s.
> > Garbage
>
> I want to dislike them but I can't. Well I do hate that "When I Grow Up"
> Pile of shit... but I like alot of their other singles, I may try an
> actual album by them one day.
They seem to be a hit and miss kind of band I think. There are a lot of
tracks I don't care for, but then there are songs like "Stupid Girl" and
"The World Is Not Enough" that I absolutely love.
> > Let us not forget Monaco and Electronic (albeit, Twisted Tenderness left
> > much to be desired...)...
>
> Agreed.
Frankly, I wish Electronic added more... well... electronic music to the mix
for "Twisted Tenderness"!! Beyond the title track there really isn't
another tune that has nice synth work in it.
Does anyone know when Monaco is supposed to release their latest album? The
last time I checked the project seemed to be in limbo.
-matt
Raithen
> >> around for 10 years (before 89, not like a band has to be around for 10
> >> years to be any good). does anyone agree/disagree? im curious as to
what
> >> else you people listen to.
> >
> >
> >Apoptygma Berzerk
> >VNV Nation
> >Covenant
> >Bjork (ok, so she's not exactly a band... and I'm referring only to her
solo
> >work, not The Sugarcubes, Kukl, etc.)
> >album)
> >etc.
>
> also, don't forget portishead. and iris, for that matter.
>
Ahh... how could I forget Portishead!! <hangs head in shame>
As for Iris... haven't had a chance to check them out but I've been meaning
to. I hear their latest album "Disconnected" is supposed to be a synthpop
gem.
-matt
ajw...@ix.netcom.com
>
> On Mon, 13 Dec 1999 23:40:47 GMT, "Evan Ward" <elde...@home.com>
> wrote:
>
> >around for 10 years (before 89, not like a band has to be around for 10
> >years to be any good). does anyone agree/disagree? im curious as to what
> >else you people listen to.
>
> you'll be hard pressed to find anything out there, but mostly that's
> due to the fact that it's hard to inovate on such a dated sound.
> Music changes with time, and there will always be good music.
> Admittedly, the modern recording industry has made it very difficult
> to find non-mainstream acts (not to mention the fact that they
> co-opted the formly usefull adjective, alternative). Still though, if
> you look and listen hard enough you'll find sounds that people will be
> remembering just as nostolgically 10 years from now.
>
> Personally, my tatses have drifted away from pop, but I'm sure that AJ
> and Manish can recommend some tunes you might like. OTOH, you might
> find it interesting to branch out into other musical genres.
>
> Whichever... good luck.
Anyone who is still listening to "synthpop" is so far past their sell by
date that its not even worth discussing... if you got the gist behind
this band in the first place, you will have grown far beyond this
genre... follow substance rather than musical styles or genres...
A.
ajw...@ix.netcom.com
>
> > actually, im from oregon (northwest US). my friend (also 15) has siblings
> > who were old enough to listen to new order and depeche mode and the other
> > old stuff i like. he then got me onto all of it. i actually despise most
> new
> > around for 10 years (before 89, not like a band has to be around for 10
> > years to be any good). does anyone agree/disagree? im curious as to what
> > else you people listen to.
>
>
> Apoptygma Berzerk
> De/vision
> VNV Nation
> Covenant
I can only imagine what the above bands sound like... although with
names as weak as these, I can hardly imagine why it would be necessary
to listen to the music
> Bjork (ok, so she's not exactly a band... and I'm referring only to her solo
> work, not The Sugarcubes, Kukl, etc.)
> Radiohead (although I can't stand the whiny/pretentious "Ok, Computer"
> album)
> Garbage
> etc.
Oh yes, garbage is a great band... a completely fabricated star vehicle
with absolutely nothing to say, no songwriting ability and no reason to
exist... other than to make the readers of Vogue feel hip
> Let us not forget Monaco and Electronic (albeit, Twisted Tenderness left
> much to be desired...)...
Actually, why not just forget Monaco and Electronic?
> A lot of the really great bands out there you have to search around for
> these days. Bands like Apop (Norway), De/Vision (Germany) and Covenant
> (Sweden) are all relatively obscure to North America and even the UK. Too
> bad really, because they're fantastic.
>
> Synthpop right now seems to be more underground/independent than ever these
> days... that's why you really have to look.
Why in the world would anyone want to listen to "synthpop" in 1999
anyway? Is that really all you listen to? yeesh...
> > and when i squinted, the world seemed rose-tinted, and angels appeared to
> > descend. to my surprise, with half-closed eyes, things looked even better
> > than when they were open.
>
> Hey, a quote from my favourite song.... excellent! :-) Check out De/vision
> and Apoptygma if you're into Depeche Mode... you won't be disappointed.
Oh my God... save me from these mega geeks...
Raithen
> >
> > Apoptygma Berzerk
> > De/vision
> > VNV Nation
> > Covenant
>
> I can only imagine what the above bands sound like... although with
> names as weak as these, I can hardly imagine why it would be necessary
> to listen to the music
What an arrogant, ignorant comment. You could at least try to listen to the
bands above so you could construct a valid, intelligent opinion. But no,
that would require thought and effort...
> > Bjork (ok, so she's not exactly a band... and I'm referring only to her
solo
> > work, not The Sugarcubes, Kukl, etc.)
> > Radiohead (although I can't stand the whiny/pretentious "Ok, Computer"
> > album)
> > Garbage
> > etc.
>
> Oh yes, garbage is a great band... a completely fabricated star vehicle
> with absolutely nothing to say, no songwriting ability and no reason to
> exist... other than to make the readers of Vogue feel hip
If you say so, oh guru of musical critique. Do tell what you consider to be
a worthwhile band... I can't wait to find out!!
> > Let us not forget Monaco and Electronic (albeit, Twisted Tenderness left
> > much to be desired...)...
>
> Actually, why not just forget Monaco and Electronic?
Why not forget New Order and bugger off?!
> > A lot of the really great bands out there you have to search around for
> > these days. Bands like Apop (Norway), De/Vision (Germany) and Covenant
> > (Sweden) are all relatively obscure to North America and even the UK.
Too
> > bad really, because they're fantastic.
> >
> > Synthpop right now seems to be more underground/independent than ever
these
> > days... that's why you really have to look.
>
> Why in the world would anyone want to listen to "synthpop" in 1999
> anyway? Is that really all you listen to? yeesh...
Apoptygma Berzerk, VNV Nation and Covenant are certainly not synthpop. So
no, I don't listen exclusively to that genre. They are, in fact, EBM bands.
Quite good ones at that.
As for synthpop: just because the year is 1999 doesn't mean that there isn't
fantastic, interesting and original synthpop artistry out there. It isn't
as prevelant these days (duh)... but I suppose you'd have me listen to Korn,
Limp Bizkit, Ricky Martin, Britney Spears, et al. Afterall, that seems to
be what is "new", "exciting" and "fresh".
Right.
> > > and when i squinted, the world seemed rose-tinted, and angels appeared
to
> > > descend. to my surprise, with half-closed eyes, things looked even
better
> > > than when they were open.
> >
> > Hey, a quote from my favourite song.... excellent! :-) Check out
De/vision
> > and Apoptygma if you're into Depeche Mode... you won't be disappointed.
>
> Oh my God... save me from these mega geeks...
Oh my God... save me from these pompous, pretentious wind bags...
-matt
Raithen
> date that its not even worth discussing... if you got the gist behind
> this band in the first place, you will have grown far beyond this
> genre... follow substance rather than musical styles or genres...
AJ, synthpop is alive and very well. Just because you don't appreciate the
genre anymore doesn't mean it's suddenly stale. Perhaps it's not promoted
to any extent in the UK or the US these days, but it's most definitely alive
and well in other European countries (yup, it's true folks... music *does*
exist outside the confines of North America and England... you heard it
here first). Unfortunately, the UK and the US seem infested with hardcore,
latin, techno-rave, rap/hip-hop crap... is this the substance to which
you're referring to Mr. Wells?? If not, then do impart a few pearls of
wisdom and tell us what music has "substance" to it these days... we're all
dying to know...
Genre's are not meant to be "followed"... they are merely there to help
distinguish between musical styles. I'm simply stating that the synthpop
genre still has both style and substance.
Anyway, remember: music moves in cycles. It may not be long before the ever
*evolving* synthpop style resurfaces...
-matt
PS: Haven't you guys (and gals!) in alt.music.new-order gotten sick (or at
least bored!!) of this self-important git yet? I remember frequenting this
newsgroup several months ago and this egotistical, mental midget was kicking
around with the same schtick back then. Guess things haven't changed...
tortels
Autechre, Massive Attack.....
man, the list is endless!
MorsImage wrote:
> > in general, i say that there are no good bands that have not been
> >> around for 10 years (before 89, not like a band has to be around for 10
> >> years to be any good). does anyone agree/disagree? im curious as to what
> >> else you people listen to.
> >
> >I disagree to a point. There are definitely some exceptional 90s bands:
> >
> >Apoptygma Berzerk
> >De/vision
> >VNV Nation
> >Covenant
> >Bjork (ok, so she's not exactly a band... and I'm referring only to her solo
> >work, not The Sugarcubes, Kukl, etc.)
> >Radiohead (although I can't stand the whiny/pretentious "Ok, Computer"
> >album)
> >Garbage
> >etc.
>
MorsImage
>date that its not even worth discussing... if you got the gist behind
>this band in the first place, you will have grown far beyond this
>genre... follow substance rather than musical styles or genres...
actually synth-pop music is still very alive and even evolving. bands like the
backstreet boys and n'sync are *not* an accurate representation of all the
high-quality synth music that is still being produce. as has been mentioned,
bands like apopytgma berzerk, de/vision, vnv nation, and iris all make
synth-pop that's not just a recreation of 80's synth-pop. they have developed
synth sounds, and consequently the music is intelligent, innovative, and
enjoyable. other good modern synth-pop bands include: wolfsheim, beborn
beton, x marks the pedwalk, elegant machinery, b! machine, cosmicity, blue
october, covenant, assemblage 23, and neuroactive. there's certainly still
"substance" in synth-pop music, as long as you're listening to the right bands.
[josh]
Kenneth Niblock
What a pile of tosh!!!!!!!!!news:3852872B...@casema.net...
>
>
> ajw...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>
> >
> > Hey I dont accept this "general understanding" in the least... sure, if
> > you ask some brain addled teenager who Joy Division were, he might spurt
> > out something lame like "dude, werent they like... Goths"? but ask
> > anyone who knows anything whatsoever about music and you would never get
> > that connection... I mean I know people from all walks of life, even
> > younger kids, and all of them know where the band fits into the big
> > picture (mainly because I set them straight) ;)
> >
>
> I Know a lot about music (LOL)
> .....so basically JD came out of the punkmovement and they played
gothic-like music;
> that means: many people who like to dress in black and listen to very
dark, suicidal
> music also like JD!
> If you say Sisters Of Mercy, The Cure, Siouxsie.....then you must also say
Joy
> Divsion. It's about black, dark music that came out of the punk and was
influenced by
> the dark eighties....
Monday maybe).
> All they do is listen to fucking Sky Radio, fucking Maria Carey and
fucking R&B!
>
>
>
ajw...@ix.netcom.com
>
> > > I disagree to a point. There are definitely some exceptional 90s bands:
> > >
> > > Apoptygma Berzerk
> > > De/vision
> > > VNV Nation
> > > Covenant
> >
> > names as weak as these, I can hardly imagine why it would be necessary
> > to listen to the music
>
> What an arrogant, ignorant comment. You could at least try to listen to the
> bands above so you could construct a valid, intelligent opinion. But no,
> that would require thought and effort...
I'll see if I can hunt up some of this crapola so I can actually comment
on it, but come on... look at the names of these bands!!!! talk about
pomposity...
> > > Bjork (ok, so she's not exactly a band... and I'm referring only to her
> solo
> > > work, not The Sugarcubes, Kukl, etc.)
> > > Radiohead (although I can't stand the whiny/pretentious "Ok, Computer"
> > > album)
> > > Garbage
> > > etc.
> >
> > Oh yes, garbage is a great band... a completely fabricated star vehicle
> > with absolutely nothing to say, no songwriting ability and no reason to
> > exist... other than to make the readers of Vogue feel hip
>
> If you say so, oh guru of musical critique. Do tell what you consider to be
> a worthwhile band... I can't wait to find out!!
Well I post regularly regarding records of merit... at the moment I'm
quite enjoying the Tarwater record Silur which actually would appeal to
those who enjoyed the early Factory sound and is inspired by the spirit
of Kraftwerk... of course they dont have weak ass band names, bad
haircuts or use DMX's, so you synth pop fans might not be into it
> > > Let us not forget Monaco and Electronic (albeit, Twisted Tenderness left
> > > much to be desired...)...
> >
> > Actually, why not just forget Monaco and Electronic?
>
> Why not forget New Order and bugger off?!
Thats a good one...
> > > A lot of the really great bands out there you have to search around for
> > > these days. Bands like Apop (Norway), De/Vision (Germany) and Covenant
> > > (Sweden) are all relatively obscure to North America and even the UK.
> Too
> > > bad really, because they're fantastic.
> > >
> > > Synthpop right now seems to be more underground/independent than ever
> these
> > > days... that's why you really have to look.
> >
> > Why in the world would anyone want to listen to "synthpop" in 1999
> > anyway? Is that really all you listen to? yeesh...
>
> Apoptygma Berzerk, VNV Nation and Covenant are certainly not synthpop. So
> no, I don't listen exclusively to that genre. They are, in fact, EBM bands.
> Quite good ones at that.
Um... forgive my ignorance, but what in the world is EBM?
> As for synthpop: just because the year is 1999 doesn't mean that there isn't
> fantastic, interesting and original synthpop artistry out there. It isn't
> as prevelant these days (duh)... but I suppose you'd have me listen to Korn,
> Limp Bizkit, Ricky Martin, Britney Spears, et al. Afterall, that seems to
> be what is "new", "exciting" and "fresh".
>
> Right.
(laughing) this is another one of these morons who hasnt had the benefit
of the years of my little missives here... these twits who think that
because you dont like their weak techno pop that you must like
commercial music, because thats all they know... wipe the sleep from
your eyes... and ears
A.
ajw...@ix.netcom.com
>
> >> Apoptygma Berzerk
> >> De/vision
> >> VNV Nation
> >> Covenant
> >
> >I can only imagine what the above bands sound like... although with
> >names as weak as these, I can hardly imagine why it would be necessary
> >to listen to the music
>
> find bands you've never heard of just on the off chance
> that they might not suck. way to go, judge them by their
> names!
Hey I havent listened to every wanker on MP3 either... I suppose for one
to have a fully "open" mind one would need to listen to every street
musician in existence as well...
I will give almost anything a chance and I will try and hunt down some
of this lame sounding stuff and if its actually good, I will cop to
that... I've done it before... but with band names like that... well
I've said it before
ajw...@ix.netcom.com
>
> > EBM. ELECTRONIC BODY MUSIC. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!
> > MANISH NEVER KNEW THAT ACTUAL LIVING HUMANS ACTUALLY
> > ADMIT TO LISTENING TO THIS TRIPE. DIDN'T THE HIV VIRUS
> > AND / OR BAD INTRAVENOUS DRUGS KILL OFF MOST OF THE
> > PEOPLE MAKING (AND LISTENING TO) THIS MUSIC BY THE LATE 80S ?
> >
> > EBM = EURO BADHAIRCUT MUSIC
>
> This coming from someone who listens to "jam" bands (members of the Allman
> Brothers are *still* alive?!?), writes pro-marijuana manifestos, speaks in
> third person and types in CAPS.
>
> > ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT TRIPE LIKE FRONT 242 AND
> > FRONTLINE ASSEMBLY? EGADS, BANDS LIKE THESE
> > REFUSE TO DIE.
>
> "Front Line Assembly" are industrial. Front 242 are EBM. There is a
> distinct difference. Go to alt.music.industrial for further information.
>
> -matt
(laughing) I just love this thread... its great to know what the real
differences in this outdated and worthless form of music truly are, so
we can name-check them to our friends and appear cool... (laughing)
Electronic Body Music!!! its been so long since I heard that weak
Front-ish that I had completely forgotten it... COME ON KIDS... I mean
Front was ok for a short time in the 80s when they appeared to be a
joke, and they even put on a decent show, one of which I think I saw...
but that sort of music in 1999? its truly preposterous... now I know I
can free up that time I had blocked out to listen to those wind filled
nobody euro bands... see, hunches are right... I had suspected that
bands with such hilarious names would also produce hilarious, ham
fisted, appeal only to humorless middle class white male music and it
would appear that I was close...
ajw...@ix.netcom.com
> Tarwater is a better name than Covenant?!?
Well its not as good a name as The Legendary Pink Dots or the Steaming
Coils, but at least its not a reference to
religious/military/totalitarian/whateveryouwanttoaddhere...
>And what electronic band *isn't*
> inspired by the "spirit" of Kraftwerk!? Very profound AJ... <yawn>
Actually this band isnt particularly electronic... and they are inspired
by the actual SPIRIT of Kraftwerk (pitting classicism against modernity)
rather than just ripping off the sound as many have done...
> >
> > Um... forgive my ignorance, but what in the world is EBM?
>
> Electronic Body Music. Ever hear of Front 242? Haujobb? KMFDM?
>
> No probably not.
(roaring) listen you little twit... I saw the Fronts put on a very early
show in New York decades ago... I had forgotton about that weak term...
are people still using that? my my... how very lame indeed... anyway
the Fronts were creative for about ten minutes in the 80s and have been
a hilarious joke ever since... and Haujobb and KMFDM? I'm not even
going to dignify that with a response... hey kiddo, this is newsgroup is
for people who are into MUSIC, not fashion statements... head on back to
the hair salon before yours all falls out
ajw...@ix.netcom.com
> debut album.
>
> Good to see another person with excellent taste, and a willingness to
> explore independent bands, or groups from abroad...
>
> Cheers,
>
> -matt
Hey boy... Mr Open mind here just wasted ten seconds of his valuable
time hunting down this "Covenant" band you were raving about, and boy is
he glad he did... for a split second he was doubting the accuracy of his
bullshit detector, but he is pleased to report that it is sharp as a
knife...
I checked out the "figurehead" track, which almost made my sides burst
with laughter as I heard the tired 808 kick into sleepwalk function,
then the burbly virtual anlog synth line arpeggated away and sure
enough... a singer so hilariously pretentious (you know, the forced low
voice that you know that he came up with to get girls) that he makes
Andrew Eldrich sound like Scott Walker!!!! This is music only a
suburban teenager could love, and I hate suburban teenagers (even when I
was one)
My policy of not listening to bands with euro-hairdresser sounding names
remains intact... and I feel at peace
manish_...@my-deja.com
YOU ARE DEAD WRONG. THERE ARE MANY GREAT BANDS
IN THE 1990S. HERE IS A BREIF LIST OF THOSE BANDS:
Phish (THE GREATEST BAND OF ALL TIME.)
Hillbilly Funk All-Stars
The Big Wu
Assface (from Yale University)
moe.
The Disco Biscuits (from U. Penn)
A String Cheese Incident
Strangefolk
Government Mule (former members of the Allman Bros Band)
Leftover Salmon
Wise Monkey Orchestra
Deep Banana Blackout
Agents of Good Roots
Greyboy All-Stars
Medeski Martin and Wood (with DJ Logic)
THESE BANDS ARE TAKING JAMBANDS INTO THE NEXT
MILENIUM. MANISH WILL BE IN FLORIDA ON NEW YEARS
EVE TO GO SEE PHISH PLAY AT BIG CYPRESS SEMINOLE
INDIAN RESERVATION. PHISH ARE COMING ON RIGHT
BEFORE MIDNIGHT AND WILL PLAY NON STOP UNTIL SUNRISE.
IT WILL BE AMAZING. PHISH WILL BE THE BEST NEW YEARS
EVE PARTY ON THE PLANET. APPROXIMATELY 70,000 PEOPLE
WILL BE THERE. THIS IS MY OPION ONLY.
BOOMSHAKALAKALAKA!!!!
MANISH
n article <3853EA...@ix.netcom.com>,
ajw...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
> Eddie Colton wrote:
> >
> > >As one of the older readers who was a teenager when JD were about,
I can
> > >tell you that there was no such thing as Goth as a scene or genre
at the
> > >time.
> >
> > Just because you didn't know about the scene doesn't
> > mean it didn't exist. There are others who happen to
> > remember it. And it wasn't solely musical.
> >
>
> Mmm... how old were you in 1979? Were you a part of a "Gothic" scene,
> because if you were, it was only in your dreams... there was no such
> thing at the time
>
> A.
> --
>
> "Rarely has reality needed so much to be imagined"
>
> ICQ# 6174686
>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
manish_...@my-deja.com
"Raithen" <rai...@cgocable.net> wrote:
> > actually, im from oregon (northwest US). my friend (also 15) has
siblings
> > who were old enough to listen to new order and depeche mode and the
other
> > old stuff i like. he then got me onto all of it. i actually despise
most
> new
been
> > around for 10 years (before 89, not like a band has to be around
for 10
> > years to be any good). does anyone agree/disagree? im curious as to
what
> > else you people listen to.
>
bands:
> Apoptygma Berzerk
WHO IS THE ALIENATED & MISUNDERSTOOD EUROPEAN TEENAGER WHO CAME UP
WITH THIS BAND NAME?
> De/vision
WHO IS THE WACK DEPECHE MODE FANBOY WHO CAME UP WITH THIS NAME?
> VNV Nation
LET ME GUESS....DO THEESE GUYS WEAR A LOT OF BLACK?
> Covenant
SOUNDS LIKE A DEATH METAL OUTFIT...
> Radiohead (although I can't stand the whiny/pretentious "Ok, Computer"
> album)
AND YOU CAN MANAGE TO SIT THROUGH THE DRECK THAT THE ABOVE BANDS CAN
CHURN OUT?
> these days. Bands like Apop (Norway), De/Vision (Germany) and
Covenant
> (Sweden) are all relatively obscure to North America and even the
UK. Too
> bad really, because they're fantastic.
SOUNDS LIKE CONSTIPATED EUROPEANS TRYING TO SOUND PROFOUND TO ME.
> Synthpop right now seems to be more underground/independent than ever
these
> days... that's why you really have to look.
WELL MAYBE BECAUSE ANYONE WHO IN 1999 STILL TAKES SYNTHPOP SERIOUSLY OR
FROM A NON-IRONIC PERSPECTIVE, IS, IN MY BOOK, AN IDIOT.
IT IS OK TO BE SYNTHPOP ONLY IF YOU ARE TAKING THE PISS OUT OF
IT FROM A POSTMODERN / IRONIC PERSPECTIVE, A LA BECK.
> Check out De/vision
> and Apoptygma if you're into Depeche Mode...
MAN, AS IF THE REAL THING WASN'T BAD ENOUGH...
> -matt
BOOMSHAKALAKALAKA!!!!
MANISH THE GREAT
manish_...@my-deja.com
"Raithen" <rai...@cgocable.net> wrote:
> > > I disagree to a point. There are definitely some exceptional 90s
bands:
> > >
> > > Apoptygma Berzerk
> > > VNV Nation
> > > Covenant
> >
> > I can only imagine what the above bands sound like... although with
> > names as weak as these, I can hardly imagine why it would be
necessary
> > to listen to the music
>
to the
> bands above so you could construct a valid, intelligent opinion. But
no,
> that would require thought and effort...
>
to her
> solo
> > > work, not The Sugarcubes, Kukl, etc.)
Computer"
> > > album)
> > > etc.
> >
> > Oh yes, garbage is a great band... a completely fabricated star
vehicle
> > with absolutely nothing to say, no songwriting ability and no
reason to
> > exist... other than to make the readers of Vogue feel hip
>
> If you say so, oh guru of musical critique. Do tell what you
consider to be
> a worthwhile band... I can't wait to find out!!
>
Tenderness left
> > > much to be desired...)...
> >
> > Actually, why not just forget Monaco and Electronic?
>
> Why not forget New Order and bugger off?!
>
around for
Covenant
> > > (Sweden) are all relatively obscure to North America and even the
UK.
> Too
> > > bad really, because they're fantastic.
> > >
ever
> these
> > > days... that's why you really have to look.
> >
> > anyway? Is that really all you listen to? yeesh...
>
> Apoptygma Berzerk, VNV Nation and Covenant are certainly not
synthpop. So
> no, I don't listen exclusively to that genre. They are, in fact, EBM
bands.
> Quite good ones at that.
EBM. ELECTRONIC BODY MUSIC. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!
MANISH NEVER KNEW THAT ACTUAL LIVING HUMANS ACTUALLY
ADMIT TO LISTENING TO THIS TRIPE. DIDN'T THE HIV VIRUS
AND / OR BAD INTRAVENOUS DRUGS KILL OFF MOST OF THE
PEOPLE MAKING (AND LISTENING TO) THIS MUSIC BY THE LATE 80S ?
EBM = EURO BADHAIRCUT MUSIC
ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT TRIPE LIKE FRONT 242 AND
FRONTLINE ASSEMBLY? EGADS, BANDS LIKE THESE
REFUSE TO DIE.
>
> As for synthpop: just because the year is 1999 doesn't mean that
there isn't
> fantastic, interesting and original synthpop artistry out there. It
isn't
> as prevelant these days (duh)... but I suppose you'd have me listen
to Korn,
> Limp Bizkit, Ricky Martin, Britney Spears, et al. Afterall, that
seems to
> be what is "new", "exciting" and "fresh".
>
> Right.
>
> > > > and when i squinted, the world seemed rose-tinted, and angels
appeared
> to
> > > > descend. to my surprise, with half-closed eyes, things looked
even
> better
> > > > than when they were open.
> > >
> > > Hey, a quote from my favourite song.... excellent! :-) Check out
> De/vision
> > > and Apoptygma if you're into Depeche Mode... you won't be
disappointed.
> >
> > Oh my God... save me from these mega geeks...
>
> Oh my God... save me from these pompous, pretentious wind bags...
>
> -matt
>
>
Raithen
the
> > bands above so you could construct a valid, intelligent opinion. But
no,
> > that would require thought and effort...
>
> on it, but come on... look at the names of these bands!!!! talk about
> pomposity...
Pomposity?! How so? You keep criticizing bands (or people), but you never
have any reasoning or arguments to back up your ridiculous comments.
> > If you say so, oh guru of musical critique. Do tell what you consider
to be
> > a worthwhile band... I can't wait to find out!!
>
> Well I post regularly regarding records of merit... at the moment I'm
> quite enjoying the Tarwater record Silur which actually would appeal to
> those who enjoyed the early Factory sound and is inspired by the spirit
> of Kraftwerk... of course they dont have weak ass band names, bad
> haircuts or use DMX's, so you synth pop fans might not be into it
Tarwater is a better name than Covenant?!? And what electronic band *isn't*
inspired by the "spirit" of Kraftwerk!? Very profound AJ... <yawn>
> > > Actually, why not just forget Monaco and Electronic?
> >
> > Why not forget New Order and bugger off?!
>
> Thats a good one...
Thanks, you can use it if you like.
> > Apoptygma Berzerk, VNV Nation and Covenant are certainly not synthpop.
So
> > no, I don't listen exclusively to that genre. They are, in fact, EBM
bands.
> > Quite good ones at that.
>
> Um... forgive my ignorance, but what in the world is EBM?
Electronic Body Music. Ever hear of Front 242? Haujobb? KMFDM?
No probably not.
> > As for synthpop: just because the year is 1999 doesn't mean that there
isn't
> > fantastic, interesting and original synthpop artistry out there. It
isn't
> > as prevelant these days (duh)... but I suppose you'd have me listen to
Korn,
> > Limp Bizkit, Ricky Martin, Britney Spears, et al. Afterall, that seems
to
> > be what is "new", "exciting" and "fresh".
> >
> > Right.
>
> (laughing) this is another one of these morons who hasnt had the benefit
> of the years of my little missives here... these twits who think that
> because you dont like their weak techno pop that you must like
> commercial music, because thats all they know... wipe the sleep from
> your eyes... and ears
Korn and Limp Bizkit are techno-pop?! Good one!! <thumbs up> A question
for you: do you think before writing these clever "missives" of yours?! No,
I think you just enjoy listening to your arse do the talking...
Get a life...
-matt
Raithen
indigolem
>> De/vision
>> VNV Nation
>> Covenant
>
>I can only imagine what the above bands sound like... although with
>names as weak as these, I can hardly imagine why it would be necessary
>to listen to the music
And this from the guy who pushes people to go out and
find bands you've never heard of just on the off chance
that they might not suck. way to go, judge them by their
names!
-indigolem. http://www.redrival.com/octoberzone/
[please remove the sand before sending me e-mail.]
Raithen
> MANISH NEVER KNEW THAT ACTUAL LIVING HUMANS ACTUALLY
> ADMIT TO LISTENING TO THIS TRIPE. DIDN'T THE HIV VIRUS
> AND / OR BAD INTRAVENOUS DRUGS KILL OFF MOST OF THE
> PEOPLE MAKING (AND LISTENING TO) THIS MUSIC BY THE LATE 80S ?
>
> EBM = EURO BADHAIRCUT MUSIC
This coming from someone who listens to "jam" bands (members of the Allman
Brothers are *still* alive?!?), writes pro-marijuana manifestos, speaks in
third person and types in CAPS.
> ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT TRIPE LIKE FRONT 242 AND
> FRONTLINE ASSEMBLY? EGADS, BANDS LIKE THESE
> REFUSE TO DIE.
"Front Line Assembly" are industrial. Front 242 are EBM. There is a
Raithen
>
> WHO IS THE ALIENATED & MISUNDERSTOOD EUROPEAN TEENAGER WHO CAME UP
> WITH THIS BAND NAME?
I have no idea how they came up with the name. Apocalypse something or
other I guess... <shrugs> What's in a name anyway?
> > VNV Nation
>
> LET ME GUESS....DO THEESE GUYS WEAR A LOT OF BLACK?
As a matter of fact... lol... VNV = "Victory Not Vengeance"... they do have
gothic elements, but lean more towards an EBM/synthpop vein...
> > Covenant
>
> SOUNDS LIKE A DEATH METAL OUTFIT...
I believe that there is in fact a death metal band by the same name... but
I'm referring to the EBM band from Sweden.
> > these days. Bands like Apop (Norway), De/Vision (Germany) and
> Covenant
> > (Sweden) are all relatively obscure to North America and even the
> UK. Too
> > bad really, because they're fantastic.
>
> SOUNDS LIKE CONSTIPATED EUROPEANS TRYING TO SOUND PROFOUND TO ME.
No accounting for taste I guess... but hey, at least their trying to be
profound... unlike your jam bands, who just seem to fiddle around with their
instruments for 30-45 minutes (at a time) because they're too stoned to keep
a concise melody.
> > Synthpop right now seems to be more underground/independent than ever
> these
> > days... that's why you really have to look.
>
> WELL MAYBE BECAUSE ANYONE WHO IN 1999 STILL TAKES SYNTHPOP SERIOUSLY OR
> FROM A NON-IRONIC PERSPECTIVE, IS, IN MY BOOK, AN IDIOT.
This coming from someone who frequently posts in the Pet Shop Boys
newsgroup. How ironic.
> IT IS OK TO BE SYNTHPOP ONLY IF YOU ARE TAKING THE PISS OUT OF
> IT FROM A POSTMODERN / IRONIC PERSPECTIVE, A LA BECK.
Beck has released a synthpop track?!
> > Check out De/vision
> > and Apoptygma if you're into Depeche Mode...
>
> MAN, AS IF THE REAL THING WASN'T BAD ENOUGH...
The only band I prefer more than New Order is Depeche Mode...
> BOOMSHAKALAKALAKA!!!!
Sounds like a hip-hop version of Fozzy Bear, doesn't he?!
> MANISH THE GREAT
And he's even got a Muppets name too!! How cute!!
-matt
Raithen
>
> Coils, but at least its not a reference to
> religious/military/totalitarian/whateveryouwanttoaddhere...
The names "New Order" and "Joy Division" both have fascist connotations...
who cares?! What's in a name?! Do they promote Nazi idealism?! Hell no...
it's a bloody name.
I find it amusingly hypocritical that you were arguing in a previous post
about substance over style... and here you are, flaming a band for their
"name" for godsakes!! lol...
-matt
PS: Just how old are you anyway?! 12?? 13?? Grow up and get a clue.
Raithen
> time hunting down this "Covenant" band you were raving about, and boy is
> he glad he did... for a split second he was doubting the accuracy of his
> bullshit detector, but he is pleased to report that it is sharp as a
> knife...
Bullshit detector eh?
<to the crowd> Skunks can't smell their own stink, as the saying goes...
> I checked out the "figurehead" track, which almost made my sides burst
> with laughter as I heard the tired 808 kick into sleepwalk function,
> then the burbly virtual anlog synth line arpeggated away and sure
> enough... a singer so hilariously pretentious (you know, the forced low
> voice that you know that he came up with to get girls) that he makes
> Andrew Eldrich sound like Scott Walker!!!! This is music only a
> suburban teenager could love, and I hate suburban teenagers (even when I
> was one)
Wow... you've managed to track down one song. I guess that makes you a
Covenant expert.
Imagine someone looking up a random New Order track and coming across "We
All Stand", and basing their judgment on the band according to that one
(incredibly annoying) song.
"I've got three miles to go..." But fortunately the remote control and skip
track button is only three inches away.
As for the vocals... well, it's a matter of personal preference I suppose.
I've played Joy Division tracks to some people before and they think Ian
Curtis has a horrible voice. Hell, my girlfriend thinks Sumner has a whiny,
annoying voice... it's personal opinion, and yours certainly doesn't have
any more clout than anyone else's... (sorry)
Anyway, that being said, it's obvious that you aren't into music with a
heavy, dancy feel to it. Fine. But why not leave it at that? You're
obviously stuck on this misguided idea that genres like synthpop, EBM, etc.
haven't evolved since the 80s. If anything is outdated, it's your
mindset...
> My policy of not listening to bands with euro-hairdresser sounding names
> remains intact... and I feel at peace
Euro-hairdressers?! Uhh... sure... that's what EBM has always stood for.
Good call!! <thumbs up!> Once again you've managed to turn yourself into a
hypocrite. Focussing on style over substance (lacking or not). I don't
recall Front 242, KMFDM, etc. ever starting a fashion/hair dressing trend...
but if you say so...
> A.
>
> "Rarely has reality needed so much to be imagined"
How poetic... how ironic... <laughs>
-matt
PS: I bet those suburban teenagers you speak so fondly of hated you too.
I'll also bet you were picked on a lot in your youth... that would explain a
lot.
MorsImage
>differences in this outdated and worthless form of music truly are, so
>we can name-check them to our friends and appear cool... (laughing)
>Electronic Body Music!!! its been so long since I heard that weak
>Front-ish that I had completely forgotten it... COME ON KIDS... I mean
>Front was ok for a short time in the 80s when they appeared to be a
>joke, and they even put on a decent show, one of which I think I saw...
>but that sort of music in 1999? its truly preposterous... now I know I
>can free up that time I had blocked out to listen to those wind filled
>nobody euro bands... see, hunches are right... I had suspected that
>bands with such hilarious names would also produce hilarious, ham
>fisted, appeal only to humorless middle class white male music and it
>would appear that I was close...
observe, boys and girls. this is what newsgroups have come to call a troll.
note the flamboyantly stupid nature of the subject, who demonstrates a truly
intimidating degree of ingorance. also, observe the bizarre, unheeded, asinine
belligerence; a peculiar desire to pick fights and offend; the chip on his
shoulder:
this is the stuff flame wars are made of. most likely, the troll will respond
to this message with some sort of pseudo-witty or pseudo-biting retort, and
will continue to flaunt his ignorance; or, if he's feeling really clever, he
will (god willing for the benefit of the rest of the newsgroup), simply out of
desire not to fulfill the stereotypes of being a troll, not respond at all, and
keep quiet in the future. most likely, though, he won't be feeling that
clever. just a hunch.
ajw...@ix.netcom.com
>
> > > Tarwater is a better name than Covenant?!?
> >
> > Well its not as good a name as The Legendary Pink Dots or the Steaming
> > Coils, but at least its not a reference to
> > religious/military/totalitarian/whateveryouwanttoaddhere...
>
> The names "New Order" and "Joy Division" both have fascist connotations...
> who cares?! What's in a name?! Do they promote Nazi idealism?! Hell no...
> it's a bloody name.
the whole point is the context... in JD's day, naming yourselves after
the Nazi prostitute houses aligned you with the oppressed... New Order
to me is a neutral name, but your experience may vary... my only point
with those names is that you can tell how humorless and pathetic the
music is going to be just be checking the band name... of course good
music has been made by bands with bad names, but you get the gist...
> I find it amusingly hypocritical that you were arguing in a previous post
> about substance over style... and here you are, flaming a band for their
> "name" for godsakes!! lol...
>
> -matt
>
> PS: Just how old are you anyway?! 12?? 13?? Grow up and get a clue.
(laughing) you dont want to know the answer to that question kiddo...
ajw...@ix.netcom.com
Hey kids... I know you are new around here, but you are going to have to
rethink your rules... I'm not going to restate everything for the sake
of a couple of teens who are into "body music"... if you want your
eduction, run my name on dejanews and feel the knowledge infect your
body and mind
A.
ncf...@neosoft.com
wrote:
>No accounting for taste I guess... but hey, at least their trying to be
>profound... unlike your jam bands, who just seem to fiddle around with their
>instruments for 30-45 minutes (at a time) because they're too stoned to keep
>a concise melody.
Concise = trivial?
Jam bands adhere to the higher notion of themes over melody. Instead
of keeping with a simple 5 or 6 measure jingle repeated ad nauseum,
they actually apply music theory principles such as inversion to
transform the central theme into new and interesting ways throughout
the jam. Other musicians with this philosophy: Mozart, Beethoven,
Jelly Roll Morton, Miles, Coltrain, Hendrix, Santana, Garcia. The
simple truth is that most musicians don't have the musical maturity
(talent?) necessary to 'jam' (which is a stupid way of saying spot
improvisation and composition).
Now combine that neccesry maturity with the added necessity of being
incredibly tight with the rest of your band. See, in most jam
situations in the past, there was a central member keeping things
together with a 'solo' (actually more of a concerto type idea).
Modern Jam bands (especially Phish) are able to weave phenominal
textures because they are so familiar with each other that they can
all 'solo' together. Each piece of the music is as complicated as
another, yet they still integrate phenominally well into a whole. The
synergy is fantastic.
In the last three months I've seen four big name acts: REM, Phish,
P-Funk, and Pet Shop Boys. Two of those concerts were me paying
homage to my nostalgia, and I had quite a bit of fun. P-Funk was the
most exciting, hype show I've ever been to, three solid hours of
partying HARD. But, musically nothing approached Phish.
I've been meaning to check out some of your recommendations, because
I'm always looking for new ideas. You do your opinion a tremendous
diservice, however, by criticizing extremely talented musicians based
on a stereotyped image. I think the average Phishead is a bit
disturbing myself, but they do recognize very good music.
As for the stoned bit... I'll only adress that if I HAVE to.
manish_...@my-deja.com
> Frankly, I wish Electronic added more... well... electronic music to
the mix
> for "Twisted Tenderness"!! Beyond the title track there really isn't
> another tune that has nice synth work in it.
SON, THE PROBLEM WITH YOU IS THAT YOU ONLY LISTEN TO SYNTH BASED MUSIC.
YOU NEED TO EXPAND YOUR HORIZONS A LITTLE MORE. RIGHT NOW YOU ARE
STUCK IN A RUT WHERE YOU ONLY LISTEN TO THESE BLACK-CLAD BAD HAIRCUT
EUROPEAN BANDS PLAYING BAD DEPECHE MODE RIPOFF MUZAK ON THEIR
KEYBOARDS. MANISH BETS THAT IF THE LAST ELECTRONIC ALBUM WERE
MORE ELECTRONIC, THEN YOU WOULD NOT BE COMPLAINING !!
TRY BROADENING YOUR HORIZINS A LITTLE BIT. HERE IS
A LIST OF ALBUMS THAT MANISH RECOMMENDS TO YOU, SON. TRY LISTENING
TO MORE JAM BANDS OR SOME ACID JAZZ. MAYBE SOME BLUEGRASS OR
CELTIC MUSIC MIGHT ALSO BE APPROPRIATE. OR SOME AFRICAN TRIBAL
PERCUSSION OR SOME GOOD OLD PUNK ROCK. MAYBE SOME BOSSANOVA,
A LITTLE BEAT POETRY, GOOD CLASSIC ROCK, SOME 60S PSYCH,
SOME 70S ERA JERSEY SCENE GARAGE ROCK, A LITTLE TUVAN THROAT
SINGING, ETC. DO YOU LIKE BOB DYLAN?
Frank Zappa - The Atlantic Years Boxset
The Last Poets - Anthology
Sun Ra and His Intergalactic Arqestra - Live in Central Park 1968
Jonathan Richman and the Modern Lovers - I, Jonathan
Jug O' Lightnin' - self-titled
Grand Funk Railroad - We're an American Band
Jimmy Cliff - Before the Weathered Storm boxset
John Coletrane - A Love Supreme
Nick Drake - Bryter Layter
Hillbilly Funk All Stars - self-titled album
Phish - Hampton Comes Alive ( 6-CD live album)
moe. - No Doy
Franklin Ajaye - The Revolution Will not be Televised
Grateful Dead- the new box set
Art Blakey and the Jazz Messengers - Live at Fillmore East 1964
Os Mutantes - The Best of....
Willie Nelson - THe Nashville Years 1968-1974
Steve Reich - Music for 18 Pianos
Widespread Panic- Light Fuse, Get Away
Hugh Masakela - Songs of Liberty 1959-1972
Northside- Chicken Rhythms
Sergio Mendes - Brasil '66
THIS LIST IS COMPREHENSIVE AND COVERS MUCH GROUND IN TERMS
OF STYLISTICS AND CLASSIFICS. IT IS ECLECTIC, WIDE-RANGING,
AND FULL OF INFLUENTIAL AND SEMINAL ARTISTS. THIS LIST
SHOULD GET YOU GOING AND GET YOUR MIND OUT OF
THE SYNTHPOP GUTTER. HOP TO IT BOY!!!
MY OPION ONLY !!!
MANISH THE WISE
Raithen
connotations...
> > who cares?! What's in a name?! Do they promote Nazi idealism?! Hell
no...
> > it's a bloody name.
>
> the whole point is the context... in JD's day, naming yourselves after
> the Nazi prostitute houses aligned you with the oppressed... New Order
> to me is a neutral name, but your experience may vary... my only point
> with those names is that you can tell how humorless and pathetic the
> music is going to be just be checking the band name... of course good
> music has been made by bands with bad names, but you get the gist...
First of all, they weren't Nazi "prostitute" houses. "Prostitution" implies
payment for rendered services. The women were taken from concentration
camps and *used* by Nazis. They were certainly not "prostitutes". Anyhow,
the idea of using that name to align yourself with the "oppressed" is
certainly ridiculous. If anything, the band name reflects a certain black
irony... a controversial choice. Shock value if you will.
Anyone who says that the name "New Order" wasn't at least slightly
connotative to fascist idealogy is naive. I don't care what Rob Gretton (or
whoever came up with it) says. (I suppose this is an argument for another
time.)
But anyway, I try not to judge a book by the cover... nor a band by their
name. It's both superficial and ignorant.
> > I find it amusingly hypocritical that you were arguing in a previous
post
> > about substance over style... and here you are, flaming a band for their
> > "name" for godsakes!! lol...
No argument here, eh?! Didn't think so. <wry smile>
> > -matt
> >
> > PS: Just how old are you anyway?! 12?? 13?? Grow up and get a clue.
>
> (laughing) you dont want to know the answer to that question kiddo...
"Kiddo"... I think not. ;-) However, I think you missed the point... I
wasn't suggesting that you were physically that age, it was a question of
your mental maturity.
-matt
Raithen
> rethink your rules... I'm not going to restate everything for the sake
> of a couple of teens who are into "body music"... if you want your
> eduction, run my name on dejanews and feel the knowledge infect your
> body and mind
Eduction?! <laughs> Thanks for coming out "pops".
For the record, I'm 25 and I totally enjoy darkwave, EBM, industrial, gothic
and synthpop. I don't see how that music caters to teenagers... in fact, I
would argue that teens these days are far more interested in hardcore,
techno and hip-hop. Music that doesn't have any lyrical or musical
substance... but then again, maybe I'm too old to understand it... lol
Anyway...
-matt
Raithen
Concise = short and to the point
> Jam bands adhere to the higher notion of themes over melody. Instead
> of keeping with a simple 5 or 6 measure jingle repeated ad nauseum,
> they actually apply music theory principles such as inversion to
> transform the central theme into new and interesting ways throughout
> the jam. Other musicians with this philosophy: Mozart, Beethoven,
> Jelly Roll Morton, Miles, Coltrain, Hendrix, Santana, Garcia. The
> simple truth is that most musicians don't have the musical maturity
> (talent?) necessary to 'jam' (which is a stupid way of saying spot
> improvisation and composition).
Oh God, you're not seriously comparing Mozart to Hendrix are you?! Do you
honestly think that Hendrix applied any sort of theory into his music?
"Spot improvisation and composition" is damn well what he was all about.
> Now combine that neccesry maturity with the added necessity of being
> incredibly tight with the rest of your band. See, in most jam
> situations in the past, there was a central member keeping things
> together with a 'solo' (actually more of a concerto type idea).
> Modern Jam bands (especially Phish) are able to weave phenominal
> textures because they are so familiar with each other that they can
> all 'solo' together. Each piece of the music is as complicated as
> another, yet they still integrate phenominally well into a whole. The
> synergy is fantastic.
To each his own. <shrugs> I prefer music that has energy, a nice beat and
lyrical substance. "Jams" just don't do it for me. They obviously mean a
lot to you though, and I suppose I can appreciate that.
> I've been meaning to check out some of your recommendations, because
> I'm always looking for new ideas. You do your opinion a tremendous
> diservice, however, by criticizing extremely talented musicians based
> on a stereotyped image. I think the average Phishead is a bit
> disturbing myself, but they do recognize very good music.
Extemely talented musicians in your *opinion*. And that is the whole point
here isn't it? Musical appreciation is based solely on individual opinion
(let's hope!!)... I don't appreciate the skill and talent that you obviously
have alluded to (I think you've overly romanticized "jamming"). But it's
pointless I suppose to slander a genre that you can't grasp... I guess I'm
guilty of doing just that in my zealous attempt to defend the integrity of
the styles of music I enjoy.
Anyway, I'm glad to hear that you're open to new ideas and I hope that
you'll keep an open frame of mind when you do have a chance to listen to
some of the recommendations I've listed. They're definitely bands who are
at the opposite of the musical spectrum in comparison to groups like Phish,
et al.
-matt
Susan
to post anything unless i felt really compelled to.
i would like to point something out because it really seems like people
are missing the point. it started with "evan" who wanted to know if
there was any good music being created in this decade. someone who
happened to think there was definitely good music being produced now
threw some recommendations out and as a result was attacked for liking
the music he likes.
then, someone else throws some recommendations out while attacking the
other person for their musical tastes, and that person gets attacked for
what he or she listens to and the process repeats itself. it's a very
intriguing if not frustrating situation. there's nothing wrong with
discussing different points of view but in all honesty, there isn't
actually any discourse occuring at the present in this newgroup. it's a
given that everyone is different and that everyone does what he or she
wants, listens to what he or she wants, etc. granted, sometimes it's
disheartening to see the kinds of things people choose (like obliviously
giving into commercialism and well marketed ploys like the spice girls),
but does everyone really feel that what they listen to is the only good
thing to listen to because that's the way it's coming off.
i'm not trying to tell everyone to embrace everyone else's differences
b/c i certainly don't, but i also don't see the point in telling someone
that his/her music fucking sucks. i mean, i may not love apoptygma
bezerk with all of my heart, but seriously, i'd rather know someone who
had the will to find something that wasn't played on the radio forty
times a day, or even once a day for that matter.
-if you read this, thanks.
-if you feel obliged to call me an idealistic sap, don't bother.
-if you feel obliged to reply in a way that encourages an even somewhat
intelligent conversation, obviously i'm all for that.
-if you choose to ignore that this email ever happened, that's fine too.
i just wanted to say what i had to say.
susan
manish_...@my-deja.com
CONCISE = FOR THOSE WITH SHORT ATTENTION SPANS. MANISH
WAS LISTENING TO SOME PHISH LIVE TAPES FROM THE '97 FALL
TOUR THE OTHER DAY... THE HIGHLIGHT WAS DEFANATELY THE
55-MINUTE VERSION OF RUNAWAY JIM AT THE HAMPTONS....CAN
YOU BELIEVE THAT THEY MANAGED TO STRETCH IT OUT TO 55 MINUTES
AND STILL KEEP IT INTERESTING... IT WAS THE MOST AMAZING PASSAGE
OF MUSIC I EVER HEARD. DO ANY OF THE BANDS YOU LISTED STRETCH OUT
A SINGLE SONG FOR 55 MINUTES?
SO YOU ADMIT YOU ONLY LISTEN TO DANCEABLE MUSIC.. WHY DIDN'T YOU SAY SO
IN THE FIRST PLACE? SEE, LENGTHY JAMS ARE TOO COMPLEX FOR YOU. THEY
ARE TOO LONG AND YOU DON'T HAVE THE ATTENTION SPAN TO KEEP UP.
> > I've been meaning to check out some of your recommendations, because
> > I'm always looking for new ideas. You do your opinion a tremendous
> > diservice, however, by criticizing extremely talented musicians
based
> > on a stereotyped image. I think the average Phishead is a bit
> > disturbing myself, but they do recognize very good music.
>
> Extemely talented musicians in your *opinion*. And that is the whole
point
> here isn't it? Musical appreciation is based solely on individual
opinion
> (let's hope!!)... I don't appreciate the skill and talent that you
obviously
> have alluded to (I think you've overly romanticized "jamming"). But
it's
> pointless I suppose to slander a genre that you can't grasp... I
guess I'm
> guilty of doing just that in my zealous attempt to defend the
integrity of
> the styles of music I enjoy.
MANISH OWNS MANY MANY SYNTHPOP ALBUMS ACCUMULATED OVER THE
LAST 10-15 YEARS. IN MANISH'S OPION THEY ARE SIMPLY NOT
AS GOOD AS THE JAM BANDS. SO YOU ARE ERRONEOUS WHEN YOU SAY
THAT MANISH DOES NOT GRASP THE SYNTHPOP GENRE, FOR MANISH
OWNS MANY RECORDS BY THESE PEOPLE AND HAS SUPPORTED THESE
ACTS BY GOING TO THE LIVE SHOWS OVER THE YEARS. SO MANISH IS
UNBIASED AND OBJECTIVE WHEN MANISH SAYS THAT THESE BANDS ARE
INFERIOR TO JAM BANDS. THIS IS AFTER HOURS AND HOURS OF CAREFUL
LISTENING TO THE RECORDS ON A GOOD PAIR OF HEADPHONES.
> Anyway, I'm glad to hear that you're open to new ideas and I hope that
> you'll keep an open frame of mind when you do have a chance to listen
to
> some of the recommendations I've listed. They're definitely bands
who are
> at the opposite of the musical spectrum in comparison to groups like
Phish,
> et al.
BOOMSHAKALAKALAKA!!!
MANISH
ajw...@ix.netcom.com
>
> > > The names "New Order" and "Joy Division" both have fascist
> connotations...
> > > who cares?! What's in a name?! Do they promote Nazi idealism?! Hell
> no...
> > > it's a bloody name.
> >
> > the whole point is the context... in JD's day, naming yourselves after
> > the Nazi prostitute houses aligned you with the oppressed... New Order
> > to me is a neutral name, but your experience may vary... my only point
> > with those names is that you can tell how humorless and pathetic the
> > music is going to be just be checking the band name... of course good
> > music has been made by bands with bad names, but you get the gist...
>
> First of all, they weren't Nazi "prostitute" houses. "Prostitution" implies
> payment for rendered services. The women were taken from concentration
> camps and *used* by Nazis. They were certainly not "prostitutes". Anyhow,
> the idea of using that name to align yourself with the "oppressed" is
> certainly ridiculous.
Ridiculous to you perhaps... but not to the band and to the number of
people who wrote about them during their creative life... check Jon
Savage, etc... even Morley... but then I suppose an EMB fan would know
more than the band themselves and people who were there at the time
>If anything, the band name reflects a certain black
> irony... a controversial choice. Shock value if you will.
>
> Anyone who says that the name "New Order" wasn't at least slightly
> connotative to fascist idealogy is naive. I don't care what Rob Gretton (or
> whoever came up with it) says. (I suppose this is an argument for another
> time.)
Once again, the opinion of an EBM twerp overrides that of the artists
themselves...
> But anyway, I try not to judge a book by the cover... nor a band by their
> name. It's both superficial and ignorant.
>
> > > I find it amusingly hypocritical that you were arguing in a previous
> post
> > > about substance over style... and here you are, flaming a band for their
> > > "name" for godsakes!! lol...
>
> No argument here, eh?! Didn't think so. <wry smile>
>
> > > -matt
> > >
> > > PS: Just how old are you anyway?! 12?? 13?? Grow up and get a clue.
> >
> > (laughing) you dont want to know the answer to that question kiddo...
>
> "Kiddo"... I think not. ;-) However, I think you missed the point... I
> wasn't suggesting that you were physically that age, it was a question of
> your mental maturity.
Hey I reserve the right to act as immaturely as I want to... I've earned
that...
ncf...@neosoft.com
wrote:
>Concise = short and to the point
hmm, admittedly havn't listened to your suggestions, but most synthpop
groups of the 80s and even New Order wrote "short and to the point"
but yet very trivial melody lines.
>Oh God, you're not seriously comparing Mozart to Hendrix are you?! Do you
>honestly think that Hendrix applied any sort of theory into his music?
>"Spot improvisation and composition" is damn well what he was all about.
No, I'm lumping them in a category based on style, not necessarily
talent. Yes I do think Hendrix applied theory, it's easy to see if
you disect his live stuff, especially his blues. Now I know he played
a lot of experimental-a-la-Machine Gun type stuff, but he also setlled
in and played some really complicated blues compositions (God I hope
no one expects me to explain the apparent oxymoron). It's impossible
to do improv music without a firm grasp of the fundamental theory of
the style you are playing, at least with any decency.
>To each his own. <shrugs> I prefer music that has energy, a nice beat and
>lyrical substance. "Jams" just don't do it for me. They obviously mean a
>lot to you though, and I suppose I can appreciate that.
Thanks. Hmm, again, before going to see them live I felt similar to
you. The beat is definitely there (even if it isn't generated by an
808). As far as lyrical substance... aren't we all New Order fans
here?
>Extemely talented musicians in your *opinion*. And that is the whole point
>here isn't it? Musical appreciation is based solely on individual opinion
>(let's hope!!)... I don't appreciate the skill and talent that you obviously
>have alluded to (I think you've overly romanticized "jamming"). But it's
>pointless I suppose to slander a genre that you can't grasp... I guess I'm
>guilty of doing just that in my zealous attempt to defend the integrity of
>the styles of music I enjoy.
This was my only point...
In terms of opinion, I don't really buy into that art is subjective
line. Admittedly what you find asthetically appealing may be very
different from what I find appealing, but there are still artistic
standards and measures against which all artists can be measured. I
don't happen to like Slash very much, but I must admit he's
technically a great guitar player. I can apreciate it. On the other
hand, I don't think much of the abilities of say DJ Taucher, but I
still like spinning his records at parties (now let me duck the
impedending tomatoes from AJ and Manish)
>Anyway, I'm glad to hear that you're open to new ideas and I hope that
>you'll keep an open frame of mind when you do have a chance to listen to
>some of the recommendations I've listed. They're definitely bands who are
>at the opposite of the musical spectrum in comparison to groups like Phish,
>et al.
>
>-matt
I don't like genres, I like bands.
Just because I'm curious... what other modern (20th Century) genres
of music are represented by bands that you like, and can you give the
artists name?
ncf...@neosoft.com
>Frank Zappa - The Atlantic Years Boxset
>The Last Poets - Anthology
>Sun Ra and His Intergalactic Arqestra - Live in Central Park 1968
>Jonathan Richman and the Modern Lovers - I, Jonathan
>Jug O' Lightnin' - self-titled
>Grand Funk Railroad - We're an American Band
>Jimmy Cliff - Before the Weathered Storm boxset
>John Coletrane - A Love Supreme
>Nick Drake - Bryter Layter
>Hillbilly Funk All Stars - self-titled album
>Phish - Hampton Comes Alive ( 6-CD live album)
>moe. - No Doy
>Franklin Ajaye - The Revolution Will not be Televised
>Grateful Dead- the new box set
>Art Blakey and the Jazz Messengers - Live at Fillmore East 1964
>Os Mutantes - The Best of....
>Willie Nelson - THe Nashville Years 1968-1974
>Steve Reich - Music for 18 Pianos
>Widespread Panic- Light Fuse, Get Away
>Hugh Masakela - Songs of Liberty 1959-1972
>Northside- Chicken Rhythms
>Sergio Mendes - Brasil '66
Jelly Roll Morton - The Birth of the Hot
Robert Johnson - King of the Delta Blues Singers
Miles Davis - Bitches Brew
Johnny Cash - anything from his early career
Bob Dylan - Nashville Skyline
Woody Guthrie - Anything
Leadbelly - ditto
etc etc
ajw...@ix.netcom.com
>
> <snipping mister wells>
>
> >observe, boys and girls. this is what newsgroups have come to call a troll.
>
> bored prick with a faux god complex to make up for his low self
> esteem, and virtually everything he says should be either taken with a
> grain of salt or completely ignored. the only reason he posts here is
> because he gave up long ago looking for a place to really fit in. pity
> this man until he evolves some sort of social etiquette.
I do appreciate your pity... its hard to come by these days...
ajw...@ix.netcom.com
>
> >a singer so hilariously pretentious (you know, the forced low
> >voice that you know that he came up with to get girls)
>
> in a faked accent/manerism because he's a "legend?"
(laughing) have you heard Ian talk? his voice was continually wavering
from a crackling squeak to this deep monster with a gob sound, often in
the same sentence... of course all singing has some degree of manner to
it, but his was anything but forced or straining for effect as all of
the Sisters/Dead Can Dance lineage of posers are... if anything he was
trying to keep his delivery regular
> >My policy of not listening to bands with euro-hairdresser sounding names
> >remains intact... and I feel at peace
>
> I have surmised that you are either balding or bald, as you have such
> a passionate hatred for bands with hair.
Mmm... unfortunately you surmise wrongly again, as I am cursed with hair
which requires daily attention and a small army of cutters to keep in
check...
A.
fernando
<343F0522842A095C.249090A7...@lp.airnews.net>,
ncf...@neosoft.com wrote:
>On Wed, 15 Dec 1999 20:25:31 GMT, "Raithen" <rai...@cgocable.net>
>wrote:
>>To each his own. <shrugs> I prefer music that has energy, a nice beat and
>>lyrical substance. "Jams" just don't do it for me. They obviously mean a
>>lot to you though, and I suppose I can appreciate that.
>Thanks. Hmm, again, before going to see them live I felt similar to
>you. The beat is definitely there (even if it isn't generated by an
>808). As far as lyrical substance... aren't we all New Order fans
>here?
Well, the other contradiction here is that New Order composes songs by....
well... Jams! Section 25 was more into moving that improv to the album than
Joy Division and New Order, but that is how the beloved band(s) composed
their songs.
>
>>Extemely talented musicians in your *opinion*. And that is the whole point
>>here isn't it? Musical appreciation is based solely on individual opinion
>>(let's hope!!)... I don't appreciate the skill and talent that you obviously
>>have alluded to (I think you've overly romanticized "jamming"). But it's
>>pointless I suppose to slander a genre that you can't grasp... I guess I'm
>>guilty of doing just that in my zealous attempt to defend the integrity of
>>the styles of music I enjoy.
>This was my only point...
>
>In terms of opinion, I don't really buy into that art is subjective
>line. Admittedly what you find asthetically appealing may be very
>different from what I find appealing, but there are still artistic
>standards and measures against which all artists can be measured.
Finally... a good summary...
-fernando
:: Modify email on reply by removing my name and period ::
-*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*-
Through the black port, the cyclone sailed her heart, where the bora blows
a wind that cries through the town, across the sea, she says she won't go.
___________________ "Cyclone" :: Silver Soul :: And Also The Trees :: 1998
-*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*-
fernando
(indigolem) wrote:
><snipping mister wells>
>
>>observe, boys and girls. this is what newsgroups have come to call a troll.
>
>this is what the newsgroup should recognize as a very old, boring and
>bored prick with a faux god complex to make up for his low self
>esteem, and virtually everything he says should be either taken with a
>grain of salt or completely ignored. the only reason he posts here is
>because he gave up long ago looking for a place to really fit in. pity
>this man until he evolves some sort of social etiquette.
Well, Eddie... that is the thing with an Anarchistic Internet... if you post,
you have to be ready for any kind of reply.
ajw...@ix.netcom.com
>
> In article <WHO54.8280$TT4.4...@news1.rdc2.on.home.com>, "Raithen"
> <rai...@cgocable.net> wrote:
>
> >Wow... you've managed to track down one song. I guess that makes you a
> >Covenant expert.
I listened to about three others and all were uniformly heinous...
> >
> >Imagine someone looking up a random New Order track and coming across "We
> >All Stand", and basing their judgment on the band according to that one
> >(incredibly annoying) song.
> >
> >"I've got three miles to go..." But fortunately the remote control and skip
> >track button is only three inches away.
Ah... well now we see why you have this rage inside of you... because
you are stupid... ah well... its best to just go with what you have...
if you dont get We All Stand and the way it fits into that records
context and the bands context at the time (taking cues from reggae and
trying to turn it into something else; doing a percussive ballad) then
you really do have non functioning ears... or ears which only pick up on
that fresh EBM frequency
> >As for the vocals... well, it's a matter of personal preference I suppose.
> >I've played Joy Division tracks to some people before and they think Ian
> >Curtis has a horrible voice. Hell, my girlfriend thinks Sumner has a whiny,
> >annoying voice... it's personal opinion, and yours certainly doesn't have
> >any more clout than anyone else's... (sorry)
Hey my son... history will sort all this out, and at the moment its
looking like JD was one of the most influential bands this side of the
Velvets and that NO sort of defined certain aspects of the 80s and
90s... so while our opinion doesnt count, history says your girlfriend
is bunk...
> I was not aware of a weak track on PC&L... but you learn something everyday.
> Of course, that would not surprise me as a reaction of someone more into
> a pop vein... with little tolerance from a standard form... they must vomit at
> the sound of Movement! The Jamming songwriting style of New Order does
> come through in many songs in PC&L.
And that is why that is the best or most representative NO record...
that balance between the strum and the bang...
> I have never seen anyone claim that Ian or Bernard are great singers... but
> those same people will say that they have what counts: the delivery. If
> someone is worried about singing on key as a important criterion... they will
> not be able to stand either singer.
>
> >Anyway, that being said, it's obvious that you aren't into music with a
> >heavy, dancy feel to it. Fine. But why not leave it at that? You're
> >obviously stuck on this misguided idea that genres like synthpop, EBM, etc.
> >haven't evolved since the 80s. If anything is outdated, it's your
> >mindset...
Its just that I listen to a massive amount of new music each week and
HAVE NEVER HEARD ANYTHING REMOTELY INTERESTING IN THE EBM OR SYNTHPOP
GENRE IN AT LEAST TEN YEARS
> >> My policy of not listening to bands with euro-hairdresser sounding names
> >> remains intact... and I feel at peace
> >
> >Euro-hairdressers?! Uhh... sure... that's what EBM has always stood for.
> >Good call!! <thumbs up!> Once again you've managed to turn yourself into a
> >hypocrite. Focussing on style over substance (lacking or not). I don't
> >recall Front 242, KMFDM, etc. ever starting a fashion/hair dressing trend...
> >but if you say so...
What is there other than style in these bands? there is no substance
whatsoever to their work... so call them hairdressers, truck drivers,
bank tellers or whatever... the fact that they are listening to music in
a dead form means that they are in it for the style and how it relates
to what they think they are...
> >
> >> A.
> >>
> >> "Rarely has reality needed so much to be imagined"
> >
> >How poetic... how ironic... <laughs>
> >
> >-matt
> >
> >PS: I bet those suburban teenagers you speak so fondly of hated you too.
> >I'll also bet you were picked on a lot in your youth... that would explain a
> >lot.
(laughing) you know you guys keep missing the mark by a mile... I'm not
fat, bald, antisocial and I wasnt beat up as a kid... I got along with
everyone in high school... I was a blond athletic kid who had everything
easy... I enjoyed high school... and I still get along with everyone...
if you met me on the street I would be nice to you and I would NEVER
engage you in talking about music because I prefer being polite and the
chances are that you and I would disagree pretty heavily on music...
most people dont even know that I care about music as much as I do,
because to me there is nothing more boring than someone who only talks
about music or art or whatever... the people who I do agree with on
aesthetic matters I rarely discuss things with, because its
understood... so I'm really quite nice and soft spoken until my bullshit
detector goes off, which it so often does around here... but thats only
becase I care about the music... so you may have to redefine your
limited view of humanity, because your definitions dont work in this
area...
A.
fernando
Susan <susa...@mtholyoke.edu> wrote:
I think I wrote about this a long time ago... but it is a nice recap plus
some more...
There is accusations of trolling and attacks... but this thread gets fed
by the fact that those being "attacked" for their tastes feel compeled to
return the insult, as if the opinion of AJ and others really matter on
what they listen to.
Post the music that you like... it would be nice to read why you like it
and forget what someone attacks it... it is pathetic to see that it
quickly resorts to age, spelling and grammar nick-picking, which is a
total cop out... On the other hand, it does make for some amusing posts.
I would even go along with the AJ, Manish and other's mantra of shaking
up the usual stagnant adulation of NewOrder, PSB and synthpop in general
(I may not choose the same words, but that is what keeps it
interesting)... those that want to remain within a genre can continue to
do so, but perhaps someone else reading this stuff can get an idea of
what else is out there.
Even though we all got our tastes and we state opinions, it is nice (and
perhaps the only useful thing) about this newsgroup to read those takes
and perhaps be enticed to try those bands.
cheers!
-fernando
--
--
-*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*-
-*-
"Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited.
indigolem
>for people who are into MUSIC,
>not fashion statements...
No, actually, this newsgroup is
for people who are into the music
of New Order. Note that this is not
alt.FAN.new-order, which would
be a place that a thread like this
should exist.
indigolem
>observe, boys and girls. this is what newsgroups have come to call a troll.
this is what the newsgroup should recognize as a very old, boring and
bored prick with a faux god complex to make up for his low self
esteem, and virtually everything he says should be either taken with a
grain of salt or completely ignored. the only reason he posts here is
because he gave up long ago looking for a place to really fit in. pity
this man until he evolves some sort of social etiquette.
-indigolem. http://www.redrival.com/octoberzone/
indigolem
>voice that you know that he came up with to get girls)
you mean like Ian Curtis? or is he excused from singing
in a faked accent/manerism because he's a "legend?"
>My policy of not listening to bands with euro-hairdresser sounding names
>remains intact... and I feel at peace
I have surmised that you are either balding or bald, as you have such
a passionate hatred for bands with hair.
-indigolem. http://www.redrival.com/octoberzone/
fernando
>Wow... you've managed to track down one song. I guess that makes you a
>Covenant expert.
>
>Imagine someone looking up a random New Order track and coming across "We
>All Stand", and basing their judgment on the band according to that one
>(incredibly annoying) song.
>
>"I've got three miles to go..." But fortunately the remote control and skip
>track button is only three inches away.
>
>As for the vocals... well, it's a matter of personal preference I suppose.
>I've played Joy Division tracks to some people before and they think Ian
>Curtis has a horrible voice. Hell, my girlfriend thinks Sumner has a whiny,
>annoying voice... it's personal opinion, and yours certainly doesn't have
>any more clout than anyone else's... (sorry)
I was not aware of a weak track on PC&L... but you learn something everyday.
Of course, that would not surprise me as a reaction of someone more into
a pop vein... with little tolerance from a standard form... they must vomit at
the sound of Movement! The Jamming songwriting style of New Order does
come through in many songs in PC&L.
I have never seen anyone claim that Ian or Bernard are great singers... but
those same people will say that they have what counts: the delivery. If
someone is worried about singing on key as a important criterion... they will
not be able to stand either singer.
>Anyway, that being said, it's obvious that you aren't into music with a
>heavy, dancy feel to it. Fine. But why not leave it at that? You're
>obviously stuck on this misguided idea that genres like synthpop, EBM, etc.
>haven't evolved since the 80s. If anything is outdated, it's your
>mindset...
>
>> My policy of not listening to bands with euro-hairdresser sounding names
>> remains intact... and I feel at peace
>
>Euro-hairdressers?! Uhh... sure... that's what EBM has always stood for.
>Good call!! <thumbs up!> Once again you've managed to turn yourself into a
>hypocrite. Focussing on style over substance (lacking or not). I don't
>recall Front 242, KMFDM, etc. ever starting a fashion/hair dressing trend...
>but if you say so...
>
>> A.
>>
>> "Rarely has reality needed so much to be imagined"
>
>How poetic... how ironic... <laughs>
>
>-matt
>
>PS: I bet those suburban teenagers you speak so fondly of hated you too.
>I'll also bet you were picked on a lot in your youth... that would explain a
>lot.
:: Modify email on reply by removing my name and period ::
-*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*-
Through the black port, the cyclone sailed her heart, where the bora blows
a wind that cries through the town, across the sea, she says she won't go.
___________________ "Cyclone" :: Silver Soul :: And Also The Trees :: 1998
Raithen
skip
> >track button is only three inches away.
> >
> >As for the vocals... well, it's a matter of personal preference I
suppose.
> >I've played Joy Division tracks to some people before and they think Ian
> >Curtis has a horrible voice. Hell, my girlfriend thinks Sumner has a
whiny,
> >annoying voice... it's personal opinion, and yours certainly doesn't have
> >any more clout than anyone else's... (sorry)
>
> I was not aware of a weak track on PC&L... but you learn something
everyday.
> Of course, that would not surprise me as a reaction of someone more into
> a pop vein... with little tolerance from a standard form... they must
vomit at
> the sound of Movement! The Jamming songwriting style of New Order does
> come through in many songs in PC&L.
Don't get me wrong, PC&L is my favourite New Order album, but "We All Stand"
does tend to get on my nerves. Could Barney sound any whinier (is that a
word? lol...)?! But hey, it's all a matter of personal taste.
Afterall, art *is* a subjective form of expression and interpretation.
As for the "jamming" style of songwriting... don't you think that's a tad
prosaic?? What band doesn't "jam" when songwriting??
-matt
PS: For the record, I'm not into a "pop" vein... most definitely not.
Raithen
> line. Admittedly what you find asthetically appealing may be very
> different from what I find appealing, but there are still artistic
> don't happen to like Slash very much, but I must admit he's
> technically a great guitar player. I can apreciate it. On the other
> hand, I don't think much of the abilities of say DJ Taucher, but I
> still like spinning his records at parties (now let me duck the
> impedending tomatoes from AJ and Manish)
"technically a great guitar player"... in other words, you aren't
appreciating the artistic expression of the individual. That's like saying
you appreciate the type of brush strokes that Van Gogh uses, but his
paintings are horrid. You appreciate his technique, but not what the work
represents or conveys.
Technical skill and artistic expression are completely different entities.
Art is absolutely, and unequivocally a subjective form of expression and
interpretation.
In other words, I'll disagree with your summation. Opinion is evil, isn't
it?! <laughs>
> I don't like genres, I like bands.
>
> Just because I'm curious... what other modern (20th Century) genres
> of music are represented by bands that you like, and can you give the
> artists name?
I don't specifically follow genres. I didn't mean to give that impression.
I do *prefer* certain styles, but I don't limit myself to say, synthpop or
EBM.
I listen to whatever I'm in the mood for... whether it's Bjork, New Order,
Pet Shop Boys, Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, Vangelis (etc. etc.)... it's a
matter of disposition. <shrugs>
-matt
Raithen
"We
> > >All Stand", and basing their judgment on the band according to that one
> > >(incredibly annoying) song.
> > >
> > >"I've got three miles to go..." But fortunately the remote control and
skip
> > >track button is only three inches away.
>
> Ah... well now we see why you have this rage inside of you... because
> you are stupid... ah well... its best to just go with what you have...
> if you dont get We All Stand and the way it fits into that records
> context and the bands context at the time (taking cues from reggae and
> trying to turn it into something else; doing a percussive ballad) then
> you really do have non functioning ears... or ears which only pick up on
> that fresh EBM frequency
"Imagine someone looking up a random New Order track"... I wasn't referring
to myself. I was referring to someone who has no prior knowledge of the
band. Context my friend, context!!!
> > >As for the vocals... well, it's a matter of personal preference I
suppose.
> > >I've played Joy Division tracks to some people before and they think
Ian
> > >Curtis has a horrible voice. Hell, my girlfriend thinks Sumner has a
whiny,
> > >annoying voice... it's personal opinion, and yours certainly doesn't
have
> > >any more clout than anyone else's... (sorry)
>
> Hey my son... history will sort all this out, and at the moment its
> looking like JD was one of the most influential bands this side of the
> Velvets and that NO sort of defined certain aspects of the 80s and
> 90s... so while our opinion doesnt count, history says your girlfriend
> is bunk...
Agreed. On all points. ;-)
> Its just that I listen to a massive amount of new music each week and
> HAVE NEVER HEARD ANYTHING REMOTELY INTERESTING IN THE EBM OR SYNTHPOP
> GENRE IN AT LEAST TEN YEARS
Excellent. Shut your cake hole and move on then. I was listing bands who I
thought were worthwhile. I wasn't trying to please yours, or anyone else's
taste.
> > >Euro-hairdressers?! Uhh... sure... that's what EBM has always stood
for.
> > >Good call!! <thumbs up!> Once again you've managed to turn yourself
into a
> > >hypocrite. Focussing on style over substance (lacking or not). I
don't
> > >recall Front 242, KMFDM, etc. ever starting a fashion/hair dressing
trend...
> > >but if you say so...
>
> What is there other than style in these bands? there is no substance
> whatsoever to their work... so call them hairdressers, truck drivers,
> bank tellers or whatever... the fact that they are listening to music in
> a dead form means that they are in it for the style and how it relates
> to what they think they are...
Opinion, opinion, opinion. (figured three was a charm)
> > >PS: I bet those suburban teenagers you speak so fondly of hated you
too.
> > >I'll also bet you were picked on a lot in your youth... that would
explain a
> > >lot.
>
> (laughing) you know you guys keep missing the mark by a mile... I'm not
> fat, bald, antisocial and I wasnt beat up as a kid... I got along with
> everyone in high school... I was a blond athletic kid who had everything
> easy... I enjoyed high school... and I still get along with everyone...
> if you met me on the street I would be nice to you and I would NEVER
> engage you in talking about music because I prefer being polite and the
> chances are that you and I would disagree pretty heavily on music...
> most people dont even know that I care about music as much as I do,
> because to me there is nothing more boring than someone who only talks
> about music or art or whatever... the people who I do agree with on
> aesthetic matters I rarely discuss things with, because its
> understood... so I'm really quite nice and soft spoken until my bullshit
> detector goes off, which it so often does around here... but thats only
> becase I care about the music... so you may have to redefine your
> limited view of humanity, because your definitions dont work in this
> area...
<holds up a white flag> I surrender!!!
-matt