joy divisons link to the nazis
Wrldsounds
Yes, indeed! In an amazing new book, "Out of Touch," Herbert Sonderstein
argues about the many influences of fascism in modern pop music, especially
British punk in the late 1970s.
Sonderstein mentions that "Ian Curtis, from the fascist group Joy Division,
kept a shrine in his basement to Adolf Hitler. Curtis was head of the local
Fascist group in Macclesfield, named SS England 23. His admiration for the
Third Reich was well documented in local police surveillance files, now
unclassified for the first time..."
Sonderstein points out that when Curtis was drugged and then murdered by the
Manchester Socialist movement (they went to his house and hung him), the
rest of the band went on with the apt name 'New Order,' another evil fascist
reference. "Even with Curtis dead," writes Sonderstein," the Fascist spirit
could not be stopped.
Sonderstein says that in most songs, the first letters of each sentence
spell out Fascist agendas in the German language. He goes on in the book to
dissect the song "Love Will Tear Us Apart" as subliminally promoting the
Reich via romantic suggestions of Eva Braun, Hitler's mistress. Using
modern sound equipment, pumped through computers and stripped down, you can
also hear bits of Hitler's speeches used as subliminals in the background of
the song. Sonderstein says, "The use of subliminals is not at all
surprising in the work of Joy Division. Martin Hannett was in fact the son
of a German SS officer. And audio subliminals were first perfected in the
Reich under Goebbels, and this knowledge was passed down thru Neo-Nazi
groups to Hannett and Curtis, who used it quite obviously in their
recordings."
It has been noted that most New Order fans are extreme right wing political
fanatics, though they may not admit it. But over time, most New Order fans
admit to having changed and become more conservative over the years.
Sondersteing believes that this is no coincidence: that repeated listenings
to this fascist music changes individuals over time to become right wing and
nationalist. Many New Order fans are also devout Manchester United fans.
You can search separate places online to find out the deep connections,
financially, that Manchester United football has to do with the current
Fascist movements in Europe. And this is all just the tip of the iceberg.
Basically, now that this book is out, the question about Joy Division and
Fascism is finally settled. Sonderstein points out how a bunch of 20 year
olds were so serious as to devout their entire lives to the cause of Hitler.
Ian Curtis paid the ultimate price, being murdered for his right wing
beliefs. It is definitely believable that these young artists had more on
their minds than beer, women, and music. They were indeed an evil political
machine. The music was secondary. Sumner, in an interview from 1983,
mentions that "Ian used to have this shrine in his basement, with all these
flags and pictures of Adolf, and he used to have me sit down there with em,
saying prayers, writing new lyrics...Ian would put in stuff about Adolf into
the records, but backwards, so it was hard to hear...but that was a great
time, hanging out with him, he dug that shrine so much...I mean, I didn't
mind it at all, cause it kept him from being depressed, playing with the toy
soldiers and flags. He left all that stuff to me in his will, and now Peter
and I have it all set up nice..." The NME that the quote was from noted at
the time that Bernard was extremely drunk and just being tongue in cheek, or
just drunk and rambling...but now, it is obvious Bernard slipped up and told
the truth at that time...
Because of this book, Joy Division and New Order have now been banned in
Germany, in the fear that Neo-Nazis will now exploit the pop music for evil
fascist ends. Sonderstein says, "The fact that most of the fascist messages
are subliminally layered into the music, makes the music all the more
dangerous. Youngsters could be permanently harmed by listening to this
music..."
I hope that this settles the "Are Joy Division a bunch of Jew-hating
Hitler-loving secret agents out to corrupt the world through their Pro-Third
Reich music?'' Of course it is true.
I am burning all my JD records. It really disgusts me. I suggest that you
all do the same.
Butch Husky
Brian
In article <20000425224038...@ng-cq1.aol.com>,
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Devon Young
A lot of things are said in books, newspapers, and websites, but do
we believe them all? Show me the proof, and I'll destroy my New
Order/Joy Division Cassettes and MP3's too. PROOF! I learned a long time
ago how much misinformation is out there, and made to look very correct.
I don't automatically believe blindy all I read, or am told. it's not
healthy to do that. Oh, and for the record, I'm about 25%+ Jewish
blood....and I'm still NOT going to jump on this "bandwagon" until I
know if it's some weird 'promotional technique' for their upcoming tour,
CD (we all know that bad press is often a perfect way to get attention
for something anyone wants to sell), or perhaps even some agenda of the
book's author. For all we know, it could even be some cult trying to get
some credibility by exploiting the simple fact JD took their name from
WWII related info. As for New Order fans being "extreme right wing
political fanatics, though they may not admit it", would you like it if
I said your parents are child molesters, "though they may not admit
it"?? It sounds invented. Thanks for the news tho, I'll keep my eyes
open. Information wants to be free.
Still Catching My Breath,
Devon
http://abreathoflife.com/
Donald Crees
gay icon group), and Quincy Jones
(a famous black musican)?
Doesn't make sense, does it.
Donny
Wrldsounds <wrlds...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000425224038...@ng-cq1.aol.com...
Mr J
mainstream press off his back. Remember "You all forgot Rudolf Hess" on
At a later date live version. Admittedly, Curtis was the main Nazi
sympathiser followed by Albrecht & Hook. Morris wasn't really into the
ideals but went along as he was last to join the band.
Donald Crees <mag...@clara.co.uk> wrote in message
news:HXFN4.3993$OO6.3...@nnrp4.clara.net...
El Depeche
exploiting the gullible, as he has just done. dont feel bad though, he did
it to me once too. mat is a troll, but only because you guys are so good at
being trolled.
i get it.
--
-------------------------
Listen! I lost my dojo.
But, the dojo remains IN MY MIND.
It even has a casino!
"Devon Young" <webm...@abreathoflife.com> wrote in message
news:390687B8...@abreathoflife.com...
ajw...@ix.netcom.com
>
> If Sumner is such a Nazi, why is he friends with the Pet Shop Boys (a noted
> gay icon group), and Quincy Jones
> (a famous black musican)?
>
> Doesn't make sense, does it.
And lets not forget that Bernie himself was known to have "kept company"
with an older Manchester man in the late 80s... but I think the man was
a Nazi, so I dont think that counts as a walk on the wild side
Devotion
time ago. Plus with New Order always having those breakups and side projects,
why would they even be isolated to have a plan for Nazis? Please don't hate the
group, hate the asshole who is saying bullshit.
--Displeased that one guy would say this and noone else knew about it
Josh
Donald Crees
Actually, come to think of it, wasn't there soldiers marching goose steps in
the Pet Shop Boys "Go West" video?
Now it is becoming clear Watson....
Jan Erik Justesen
What a load of garbage...Curtis, a leader of a fascist group...drugged and
hung...subliminals in LWTUA....I'd like to see the proof that this is
true...As I'll be going to Macclesfield...is there anyway to verify some of
the ludicrous charges?
Ms.J
MAT
I'd keep out of it. Nothing but trouble could come if you start poking
around. Those fascists don't mess around....
mess around, mess around...
Devon Young
>
> Actually, come to think of it, wasn't there soldiers marching goose steps in
> the Pet Shop Boys "Go West" video?
>
> Now it is becoming clear Watson....
Of course there was soldiers in that video....The song is a bit of a
politcal statement dealing with the east & west (a.k.a. Soviet Union &
United States, or Communism & Free world).
joydivi...@my-deja.com
Mark Edler
just got my first New Order album (Substance) and I wouldn't give a stuff if
they were Neo-Nazi skinhead tank-top wearing chicken-fuckers, I just like
dancing around my room to Perfect Kiss and Bizarre Love Triangle, and
singing along to 1963.
Now it's time for me to go and trim my little moustache.
Mark
Wrldsounds wrote in message
<20000425224038...@ng-cq1.aol.com>...
>WAS IAN CURTIS A THIRD REICH SUPPORTER?
>
El Depeche
--
-------------------------
Listen! I lost my dojo.
But, the dojo remains IN MY MIND.
It even has a casino!
"Mark Edler" <kra...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:390a...@news.iprimus.com.au...
indigolem
He's not a troll, he's been here for years. He
already posted this elsewhere, then decided it
would be funny to repost it as someone else.
He's obviously just really, really bored. But
that goes without saying since he joined the
Ceremony list. Right, Tarboxy? =p
M. Shah
did have a real fascination with Nazi Germany and this is
mentioned in "Touchng From A Distance". And if I can remember
what I read correctly, he also had the German National Anthem
played at his wedding. The book also mentions how Ian made fun
of an Asian family that lived near him.
I presonally think that Ian was not an out-and-out Nazi but the
political climate of late 70's Britain meant that many racial
intolerances were mainstream.
Perhaps this subject is not as clear cut as some of you may
think.
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
MAT
My reply to the original question was obvious tongue-in-cheek. Then someone
went and posted my reply as if it were a new originating post. You can
trace 'wrldsound' dude all you want. It ain't me.
-tarbox
"indigolem" <octob...@yahoo.calm> wrote in message
news:390be501...@news.evcom.net...
> >actually, hes quite an intelligent little troll.
>
MAT
> of an Asian family that lived near him.
'mongol' was the word in the book used to describe Curtis' fascination with
a family next door who had a child with Downs Syndrome. (Downs Syndrome
makes the eyes of caucasians with it look asian, thus some folks use the
old-fashioned 'mongoloid' adjective to refer to these folks)
He wrote lyrics to 'The Eternal' based on how the kid never seemed to
change, even after 10 years, still sitting in the same room in the same
house, not allowed out at all...
So, no, Ian never made fun of an Asian family. Actually, he never made fun
of the retarded kid, either. Just fascinated by it....
By the way, this account is in Heart & Soul liner notes as well....
El Depeche
--
-------------------------
Listen! I lost my dojo.
But, the dojo remains IN MY MIND.
It even has a casino!
"indigolem" <octob...@yahoo.calm> wrote in message
news:390be501...@news.evcom.net...
> >actually, hes quite an intelligent little troll.
>
indigolem
>did have a real fascination with Nazi Germany and this is
>mentioned in "Touchng From A Distance".
And lord knows this book, written many years after the fact,
is all true and remembered correctly... just like those scenes
people remember seeing in Star Wars that never existed.
Nazi symbolism in the late 70s was about nothing more than
shock value. Ian was a punk. Enough said.
ralph
"Wrldsounds" <wrlds...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000425224038...@ng-cq1.aol.com...
MAT
It really is the spirit of the band. I mean, New Order RARELY give a
straight answer, so why should this newsgroup? I like to think that every
'troll' posting by anyone in this newsgroup is a tribute to Rob Gretton, god
bless, the master troll.
I grow weary of the incessant "FS: 12" SubVulture" postings to the
newsgroups. I just don't know how people can be bothered to get excited
about selling and buying from fan to fan. Just go down to the record shop
and buy whatever you need. "For Sale" posts REALLY make this newsgroup
quite boring. Does anyone really buy this stuff?? I have the feeling the
same 8 people just keep selling crap to each other, over and over. And what
kind of person EVER sells their New Order originals??? Are these people who
develop heavy heroin habits and after selling everything else finally break
down and sell off their original Unknown Pleasures LP with textured
sleeve??? Strange people these fair-weathered fans who post "FS: 7"
DubCulture mix" every week....
Bring on the trolls.
"El Depeche" <noh...@ow-my-eye.com> wrote in message
news:Sm0P4.15346$55.1...@news1.sttls1.wa.home.com...
> well, hes acting like a troll.
> --
>
>
> -------------------------
> Listen! I lost my dojo.
> But, the dojo remains IN MY MIND.
> It even has a casino!
>
>
> "indigolem" <octob...@yahoo.calm> wrote in message
> news:390be501...@news.evcom.net...
> > >actually, hes quite an intelligent little troll.
> >
indigolem
>It really is the spirit of the band. I mean, New Order RARELY give a
>straight answer, so why should this newsgroup?
Yes, but the thing is New Order is rarely straight enough to give
a straight answer, if you catch my drift.
MAT
> a straight answer, if you catch my drift.
and, hopefully that is the case with us fans as well...
isamu
supposedly had a fling Lil' Kim. And is currently dating the
black female backgroung singer from Raise the Pressure. Also I
hear the girl member in New Order (forgot her name) was dating
Lenny Kravits.
-----------------------
"Did U say faster"?
Haze
isamu <isamu99...@pacificnet.net.invalid> wrote in message
news:17db5160...@usw-ex0104-087.remarq.com...
jara
>got the idea from a term used in the Concentration camps , as the prostitute
>wing was called Joy division, but they werent Nazis. Ian curtis however was a
>bit of a racist, and he voted for thatcher. What it comes down to is this, they
>were all in a band having a good time, they didnt know all that much about ian,
>as he was a very difficult person to be around most of the time. The guys loved
>him, they didnt get too into him personally over lots of issues just cause he
>wasnt that great of a guy if you got deep enough . If you did, he was an ego
>manaic asshole. But he wasnt a nazi either, he just took a pretty right wing
>side of thinking because of the unemployment. For verification of this read
>Touching from a distance, written my his wife. You find more validity in that
>than you will on these newsgroups.
2nd, Gillian and Stephen are married, and have been since the early 90s. If I
dont remember the date, she just didnt change her name over. They have been
together since the late 70's . They were quite happy the last time I saw them
together, as they are with eachother everyday, professionally and personally. So
forget the idea of Gillian dating lenny Kravits, she is 45 years old for crying
out loud, 15 years older than him.
Jara
jara
is a Nazi or whatever, why did he produce the dead Kennedys, even more so, the
song Nazi Punks Fuck off, It is on the in god we trust incorporated album. The
other thing is, the ubsurd things that new order are likely to say when
interviewed. Ive had them talk about plumbers , bad pizza joints, and thier
favorite b movies with lots of high school kids and boobs exposed. So if you see
something like that in an interview, be careful. They are the one band that
doesnt care a flying rats ass about what people say or do, they are just 4
people in a band , had a bad start, and thought Ian was a bit of an asshole most
of the time. But the Nazi shrine, barney probably made that up cause he wanted
to feed into all the accusations, he really hates people who care, they all do.
In article <dH8P4.2698$wB6....@news.swbell.net>, "ralph" says...