Worst New Order Song of All Time
Mat
Turn My Way
I have nothing against Billy Corgan, and in fact think he can be a musical
genius, so I am not biased against this song for that reason.
I dislike the above song because it sucks. And Corgan ruins it even
further. Even live, you would think he might add something to it, but he
only brings it down.
I mean, WHY would Sumner think he needed/wanted another singer on it? It is
fine with just one vocalist. No need to collaborate!
But, mainly, the song is just crap, from the lyrics to the composition.
lifeless. the type song that new order might have come up with in 1985
while jamming out, and then never played again.
I think this song sets the tone for GetReady that causes so many people to
dislike it.
Take this song and Rock the Shack off the LP, and more folks would have at
least considered GetReady as a proper LP.
I personally enjoy Rock the Shack (as has been discussed here far too much)
but consider it a fun b-side, not an lp track in the tradition of how new
order respects each lp track.
but, this Turn My Way piece of crap is the worst new order song EVER. EVER.
Go ahead, play it. Listen to it if you can. Report back here and let me
know, what song is worse than that one? None, right?
-Mat Austin Tarbox
DC
> Go ahead, play it. Listen to it if you can. Report back here and let me
> know, what song is worse than that one? None, right?
>
> -Mat Austin Tarbox
I don't have to, I already know it sucks big time (as you Americans say). I
think Rock the Shack should steal the crown (even when respecting your fun
song argument). Slow Jam is also god awful according to my ears...
DC
Jim
the outcome is clear.
--
Regards,
Jim
"DC" <d...@NOSPAMblueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3TIga.121$th5...@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk...
Andy Slater
chorus sucks
--
Kind Regards
Andy Slater
___________
Email: burs...@spamzen.co.uk
(remove spam to reply)
"Mat" <m...@snet.net> wrote in message
news:E7Iga.8629$5E6.192...@newssvr10.news.prodigy.com...
pt
rock the shack is absolutely embarassing and the worst song every released
by new order.
surely 100% of people here would agree with that - there is no need for a
discussion. nothing comes close.
anyone who doesnt agree is simply 'wrong' and thats that.
p.s. why didnt 'player in the league' get on the album - it would have been
the best song after crystal - is it because DM would have sued over the
bassline from enjoy the silence
"Mat" <m...@snet.net> wrote in message
news:E7Iga.8629$5E6.192...@newssvr10.news.prodigy.com...
Andrew Crane
news:b603pl$vg0$1...@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk...
> Rock the Shack .. no question .. until the stupid chorus it is good but
the
> chorus sucks
Rock the Shack is a bloody awful song. Inane lyrics, terrible melodies,
Bobby Gillespie's singing... Ick.
M Shah
Erm, no. RTS, I think, was intended as a bit of fun and it should be
heard as such. It has never grated me as say "Slow Jam" or "Someone
Like You" have.
There was a time when I would have rated "State Of Nation" as my worst
NO song...but then Get Ready came out.
Mat
news:5b8572d3.03032...@posting.google.com...
ah, some brilliance in this field of idiots! People who dislike Rock the
Shack so much just don't get New Order. Yes, RtS is not their best song
ever, but it is not trying to be anything amazing. It is like them playing
a cover song at a show. NOT for the folks with thick glasses and pens in
pockets....
But, clearly, Turn My Way is TRYING to be something special, and it totally
fails in that.
Art must be judged in its context, especially, compared to what it WANTS to
be.... art cannot be judged in a total vacuum. Rock the Shack is clearly
not trying to be serious. Sure, you can hate it all you want, I have
nothing against folks having their opinions.
But, RtS is not nearly as pathetic as the TRYING to be super, but miserably
failing, Turn My Way...
-Mat Tarbox
p.s. I must differ on Someone Like You, as I think it is one of New Order's
best songs EVER.
p.p.s. I agree with you on State of the Nation. But, I do wonder how
serious a song that was supposed to be. I have just never heard them
discuss, and the lyrics are not clear. I sense it was a throwaway tune, a
b-side, that got pressed for some commitment, and was not just them fooling
around, and THUS, I rate it poorly as well.... maybe #2 worst song by New
Order
DC
> ah, some brilliance in this field of idiots! People who dislike Rock the
> Shack so much just don't get New Order. Yes, RtS is not their best song
> ever, but it is not trying to be anything amazing. It is like them
playing
> a cover song at a show. NOT for the folks with thick glasses and pens in
> pockets....
Ha haa! RTS is not my idea of fun... I think all *tasteful* New Order fans
were disgusted that New Order had the audacity to put such a painful
pandemonium of forlorn youthful escapism on their first album for a
decade... The racket could just have been an embarassing B side, which
could easily have been forgotten, but now it will forever be remembered as a
major blight on Get Ready.
> But, clearly, Turn My Way is TRYING to be something special, and it
totally
> fails in that.
Yes, it's a another worrying example of New Order (notably Sumner) saying:
"hey, I don't really give a fuck about the music, or this band, I'M just in
it for the money, and to hang out with some hip young rockers: I wanna
sream, I wanna shout, I want to know what it is about... Did you know the
grass in the playground, where we used to play, is ten feet high"?
> p.s. I must differ on Someone Like You, as I think it is one of New
Order's
> best songs EVER.
Ha haa! Its quite clearly average. It only stands out because nearly
everything else on Get Ready is so utterly dire...
>
> p.p.s. I agree with you on State of the Nation. But, I do wonder how
> serious a song that was supposed to be. I have just never heard them
> discuss, and the lyrics are not clear. I sense it was a throwaway tune, a
> b-side, that got pressed for some commitment, and was not just them
fooling
> around, and THUS, I rate it poorly as well.... maybe #2 worst song by New
> Order
Even though I would never argue SON as being a golden boy, it does have a
certain buzz of excitement that is clearly lacking on Get Ready... A case
of different times, changed lives, I suppose - Ha haa! I've just coined a
new phrase.
DC
AJ Wells
and then proclaim one of its cornerstones as the worst song the band has
recorded? I think someone needs to check his medication levels...
Ajw
"Mat" <m...@snet.net> wrote in message
news:E7Iga.8629$5E6.192...@newssvr10.news.prodigy.com...
AJ Wells
many contenders...
Previous to Get Ready I had Liar down as my worst NO song... an embarassment
in the middle of the Elegant elegy that was Republic... but now Get Ready
comes along and almost every track could be the worst NO has ever done...
but I would have to agree that RTS is the winner because its just so damn
awful... a "roots rocker" that has neither roots nor rock... its just fookin
awful
Ajw
"DC" <d...@NOSPAMblueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3TIga.121$th5...@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk...
>
AJ Wells
and why was it bad? For these ears the first song to fall short of the mark
was Confusion... written in a night it had none of the dimension that we had
come to expect from their records, which were the result of months and
months of fooling around and distilling... it was the beginning of a line of
poor songs that continued with Subculture and moved through As It Is When It
Was... it took a holiday in the Technique period but reared its ugly head
again with Liar... and now the entirety of Get Ready... whats next?
Ajw
"M Shah" <komak...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:5b8572d3.03032...@posting.google.com...
Mark Pashley
a bad song! are you mad?
That is one of the best!
d0b
put out on the 12" is sub-par. Live it sounded great, and so does the
re-recording on Substance.
In my book, the first really bad NO song, which I intensely dislike to this
very day, is Every Little Counts. No, not even the Zoo-line redeems it... If
people think the version of "We All Stand" on Power Corruption and Lines is
a plumpudding just waiting to collapse (unlike the great live renditions
they did), Every Little Counts is 10,000 times worse.
Jan
AJ Wells <ajw...@ix.netcom.com> schreef in berichtnieuws
b62trl$fn2$1...@slb5.atl.mindspring.net...
AJ Wells
news:E7eha.105850$WE1.16...@amsnews02.chello.com...
> Confusion is not a bad song, but the actual recording (arrangement) that
was
> put out on the 12" is sub-par. Live it sounded great, and so does the
> re-recording on Substance.
> In my book, the first really bad NO song, which I intensely dislike to
this
> very day, is Every Little Counts. No, not even the Zoo-line redeems it...
Aww come on... that chopsticks ending redeems it beyond question... its a
fun Velvets pastiche and certainly not in the doldrums when you look at
their catalog in its entirety
>If
> people think the version of "We All Stand" on Power Corruption and Lines
is
> a plumpudding just waiting to collapse (unlike the great live renditions
> they did), Every Little Counts is 10,000 times worse.
(laughing) thats a point well taken... I think of PCL as their virtual
zenith, but WAS is certainly a little thin compositionally... but it is
saved by the skeleton backing which was as close as they came to reggae
(wish the would get a little closer actually)
Ajw
Angus Bryant
>
> >If
> > people think the version of "We All Stand" on Power Corruption and Lines
> is
> > a plumpudding just waiting to collapse (unlike the great live renditions
> > they did), Every Little Counts is 10,000 times worse.
>
> (laughing) thats a point well taken... I think of PCL as their virtual
> zenith, but WAS is certainly a little thin compositionally... but it is
> saved by the skeleton backing which was as close as they came to reggae
> (wish the would get a little closer actually)
IMO the PCL version of We All Stand isn't anywhere as good as the Peel
Sessions version, which has much more feeling and a more atmospheric
feel to it. Using the piano and the softer percussion gives it a very
laid-back, almost jazzy feel.
Angus
Mat
news:b62trl$fn2$1...@slb5.atl.mindspring.net...
> An interesting line of thought would be... what was the first bad NO song
> and why was it bad? For these ears the first song to fall short of the
mark
> was Confusion... written in a night it had none of the dimension that we
had
> come to expect from their records, which were the result of months and
> months of fooling around and distilling... it was the beginning of a line
of
> poor songs that continued with Subculture and moved through As It Is When
It
> Was... it took a holiday in the Technique period but reared its ugly head
> again with Liar... and now the entirety of Get Ready... whats next?
>
> Ajw
I would have to agree. I remember when I first heard Confusion sometime in
1985, I just knew it was a quick thing, I could just tell not much had been
invested in it.
The song HAS grown on me over the years, but it seems more like a bit of
luck, than an effort.
And, because of their luck with Confusion, they went on to record other
songs in a similar way, as Aj says, in the late 80s, and they were all
mediocre.
Confusion was an overnight experiment, one which by the luck of the draw
ended up being an ok song, even a great dance song, but it could just have
easily ended up being another 'state of the nation' type thing. I think the
success of Confusion led New Order to believe they could be more lazy than
they already were, and that hurt them.
-mat tarbox
Mat
on the way....
I think Every Little Counts is one of New Order's best songs. The second
half of that song is BRILLIANT. Take another listen.
Surely, the first half is a bit Lou Reed toss away, but that is not the
song, that is just the entrance to the song.
That pause, and then the second half of the song coming in, had me in tears,
literally, when i first heard it on vinyl in 1986. it ended an excellent
lp, and blew my mind. that type of fusion of revolution9y chaos with
keyboards washing all over the place was at the time, very very ahead of its
time, and prescient, and overwhelming in the 80s. Nowadays, it is not that
mindblowing, but I can assure you, when it was released, ELC was truly
transcendant.... and then that ending! worked on vinyl, let me assure
you.....
-mat tarbox
"d0b" <bi...@nest.hair> wrote in message
news:E7eha.105850$WE1.16...@amsnews02.chello.com...
Mat
> Hey wait I thought this nitwit LIKED Get Ready??? How can you love a
record
> and then proclaim one of its cornerstones as the worst song the band has
> recorded? I think someone needs to check his medication levels...
>
> Ajw
I would argue that every New Order lp has one bad song on it. New Order,
exceptionally, has only like 8 bad songs total (as unlike most bands which
believe an lp should be two hit singles with 7 pieces of crap, new order
(naively?) thought lps were supposed to be 8 hit singles....) - somehow they
managed to never have two bad songs on any lp, but instead they are all
spread out.
So, yes, a great lp like GetReady can have a bad song on it. So can their
other brilliant lps.
-mat
p.s. was that so hard to grasp, aj??? or have you forgotten YOUR meds. I
do take 3 meds a day, but cannot forget, or my wife might leave me....
AJ Wells
unfortunately evolved past before it could be catpured.... that version of
All Stand is much better than the record version and of couse Turn The
Heater On is... one of my most favorite tracks by anyone and their cover is
absolutely wonderful
Ajw
"Angus Bryant" <at...@cam.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:3E85DD45...@cam.ac.uk...
AJ Wells
chord changes from the intro to S25's From The Hip record... what was that
called? Inspiration I think...
Its a bad song though
Ajw
"Mat" <m...@snet.net> wrote in message
news:E7Iga.8629$5E6.192...@newssvr10.news.prodigy.com...
Angus Bryant
>
> I would argue that every New Order lp has one bad song on it. New Order,
> exceptionally, has only like 8 bad songs total (as unlike most bands which
> believe an lp should be two hit singles with 7 pieces of crap, new order
> (naively?) thought lps were supposed to be 8 hit singles....) - somehow
they
> managed to never have two bad songs on any lp, but instead they are all
> spread out.
I'm struggling to think of a bad song on Technique...
Angus
Michael Houlahan
> yikes, more tarbox agreeing with AJ!!!!! watch out, the four horsemen may
be
> on the way....
>
> I think Every Little Counts is one of New Order's best songs. The second
> half of that song is BRILLIANT. Take another listen.
>
I did...........
Every little counts - when I am with you.
Even though you're stupid I will...blah...blah
Gimme a break!
Mick
DC
"Michael Houlahan" <mic...@bigpond.net.au> wrote in message
news:aKyha.2875$ft3....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
I think he is referring instrumental part after the verses, which is quite
cool ;-)
DC
>
pt
new order thought Rock The Shack WAS a good song
its not 'fun' - they actually thought it was good
but it is shit - it is the biggest piece of shit by any band ever
it is awful
there is no excuse - no matter how die-hard you are
"Mat" <m...@snet.net> wrote in message
news:YR3ha.9145$ye1.2132639867@newssvr10.news.prodigy.com...
AJ Wells
truly believe is good... thats the truly pathetic thing... they really do
think that GR had good songs... its amazing to me how people who were that
critical of themselves could sit in the control room and listen to playback
of this sheet without blanching, but life is strange that way...
And even if RTS was a "hiliarious, fun pisstake"; if having fun means
releasing utter crap, then how about a little less fun?
Ajw
"pt" <petert...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:s7Bha.5065$3O6.32...@news-text.cableinet.net...
AJ Wells
favorite track on the record when it came out, now sounds horribly dated and
poorly arranged...
Ajw
"Angus Bryant" <at...@cam.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:b65kb3$gus$1...@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk...
Simon Stuart
> Oh by the way, Turn My Way is not a bad melody... its a lift from Bernards
> chord changes from the intro to S25's From The Hip record... what was that
> called? Inspiration I think...
Inspiration is the last song on the album (the one about the light and the
hero and so on): I think you're talking about The Process.
I rediscovered From The Hip when I ordered it from LTM a month ago: it has
absolutely blown me away. I've always had a soft spot for SXXV - I used to
live round the corner from Larry Cassidy in Blackpool - but for some reason,
eight years after I first heard it, this album has just clicked. It's sonic
perfection. Pure genius.
The LTM CD includes most of the singles from 1982-1984: the Looking From A
Hilltop Megamix is a candidate for the best thing Barney Sumner ever got his
hands on.
Go on, all of you, go and buy it *now*:
http://www.ltmpub.freeserve.co.uk/ltmhome.html
Cheers
S
Simon Stuart
> Ha haa! RTS is not my idea of fun... I think all *tasteful* New Order fans
> were disgusted that New Order had the audacity to put such a painful
> pandemonium of forlorn youthful escapism on their first album for a
> decade... The racket could just have been an embarassing B side, which
> could easily have been forgotten, but now it will forever be remembered as a
> major blight on Get Ready.
> Yes, it's a another worrying example of New Order (notably Sumner) saying:
> "hey, I don't really give a fuck about the music, or this band, I'M just in
> it for the money, and to hang out with some hip young rockers: I wanna
> sream, I wanna shout, I want to know what it is about... Did you know the
> grass in the playground, where we used to play, is ten feet high"?
Of course, the interesting (and tragic) thing about RTS is the fact it's so
obviously descended from Shoot Speed Kill Light, the last song on Primal
Scream's Exterminator. On paper, the two songs are almost identical: bits of
NO and PS, a furious jam, heads-down rock action ... yet they couldn't be
more different. SSKL is a powerhouse, an out-of-control explosion. RTS is a
terrifyingly feeble attempt to capture the same atmosphere, the same
aggression, the same emotion.
It's worrying that a band like NO, who until recently always appeared to
understand the point that great pop music pivots on a moment, on a feeling,
could be so f***ing stupid as to try to write a song like that. You can just
imagine Barney sitting in the studio: "Hey, why don't we do a thing like
that Primal Scream track I played on? Come on ... an impromptu jam ...
right, let's see, how do I do an E chord again?" It's one of the most
laboured, forced things I've ever heard. Hellfire, it's got *sampled
feedback*.
It's not just one of NO's worst songs: it's one of the worst songs ever
made.
Cheers
S
AJ Wells
news:BAACD310.1773E%simonma...@btinternet.com...
nicely put mister Stuart... although the Primals have a pretty strong
pretension factor, they can at least make things seem and sound powerful
>
> It's worrying that a band like NO, who until recently always appeared to
> understand the point that great pop music pivots on a moment, on a
feeling,
> could be so f***ing stupid as to try to write a song like that. You can
just
> imagine Barney sitting in the studio: "Hey, why don't we do a thing like
> that Primal Scream track I played on? Come on ... an impromptu jam ...
> right, let's see, how do I do an E chord again?" It's one of the most
> laboured, forced things I've ever heard. Hellfire, it's got *sampled
> feedback*.
>
> It's not just one of NO's worst songs: it's one of the worst songs ever
> made.
(laughing) I have listened to it so few times that I had forgotten about the
sampled feedback... which of course can be interesting in the hands of
creative people (Fennesz etc) but in this case just neuters the song even
more fully
Ajw
AJ Wells
> AJ Wells:
>
> > Oh by the way, Turn My Way is not a bad melody... its a lift from
Bernards
> > chord changes from the intro to S25's From The Hip record... what was
that
> > called? Inspiration I think...
>
> Inspiration is the last song on the album (the one about the light and the
> hero and so on): I think you're talking about The Process.
Thats the one... it doesnt sound like TMW, but there is something about the
melody that is similar
>
> I rediscovered From The Hip when I ordered it from LTM a month ago: it has
> absolutely blown me away. I've always had a soft spot for SXXV - I used to
> live round the corner from Larry Cassidy in Blackpool - but for some
reason,
> eight years after I first heard it, this album has just clicked. It's
sonic
> perfection. Pure genius.
Well of course S25 records used to always parallel JD records... they did
Always Now in the same studios and during the same sessions as Closer and
then From The Hip is essentially PCL Part II... when you put that record
together with Crazy Wisdom you get the full impact of Bernards songwriting
and production work around that period... I thought it sounded great on its
release and it still sounds good... although I dont think the band
themselves have much of anything, they are a good blank slate for producers
or musical trends to work their magic on...
>
> The LTM CD includes most of the singles from 1982-1984: the Looking From A
> Hilltop Megamix is a candidate for the best thing Barney Sumner ever got
his
> hands on.
>
> Go on, all of you, go and buy it *now*:
And I think that Crazy Wisdom is the great lost New Order track... Barney
should have never given that one up... although it did become BLT in a later
incarnation
Ajw
M Shah
> best songs EVER.
Never been much of a fan of backing vocals on NO records, you see, and
"Someone Like You" is a case in point. And it's not just NO
stuff..."Second Nature" off RTP was *totally* spoilt by the presence
of non-Barney vocals.
M Shah
me think that, although it must have been dissapointing at the time
(post IC), perhaps it's a bit more accomplished than people tend to
give it credit for.
..."My brother said that he was dead..." (?!)
Mike Moeslien
> song and why was it bad? For these ears the first song to fall short
> of the mark was Confusion... written in a night it had none of the
> dimension that we had come to expect from their records, which were
> the result of months and months of fooling around and distilling...
Oh, come on. Confusion is great! The Substance re-recording loses all of
the charm of the original, but the full-length '83 12 inch version is
fantastic. The lyrics are disposable (much like Blue Monday, Fine Time,
etc.) but the music more than makes up for it. They were trying something
new with the whole NYC dance club beat and all.
Just one fan's opinion. I'm sure many of you will disagree, which is cool.
Kzinns2
you why but it's one of the few NO albums I can listen to all the way through
without cringing at a really bad song. Nothing really great on there either
though, I'll admit.
I agree that Rock the Shack is easily the worst NO song, and there have been
some bad ones as mentioned - State of the Nation, Shellshock, We All Stand,
Every Little Counts, a bunch of songs from Get Ready & Republic...I could go
on. Plenty of clunkers to choose from, unfortunately.
This thread has made me think...is there another band that has produced both
such brilliant music and such horribly bad music over the years?
DC
tell
> you why but it's one of the few NO albums I can listen to all the way
through
> without cringing at a really bad song. Nothing really great on there
either
> though, I'll admit.
You mean you can get through Hooky's vocal performances without cringing?
What's your strategy?
DC
Simon Stuart
> Oh, come on. Confusion is great! The Substance re-recording loses all of
> the charm of the original, but the full-length '83 12 inch version is
> fantastic. The lyrics are disposable (much like Blue Monday, Fine Time,
> etc.) but the music more than makes up for it. They were trying something
> new with the whole NYC dance club beat and all.
>
> Just one fan's opinion. I'm sure many of you will disagree, which is cool.
No, I'll tentatively agree ... I mean, I have a .wav edit of it as my mobile
phone ringtone, which must mean *something* [1] ...
I don't think it's one of the canonical classics, but I think it's a
fascinating document. There's something wonderful about that whole Factory
funk thing: cheesy Manchester white boys dipping their pasty toes in this
writhing disco mass and producing something charmingly, wonderfully skewed
(see also ACR, natch).
For me, the Substance version sounds overworked. I much prefer the Substance
version of Temptation, though ...
S
[1] Probably that it's got a magnificent passage without a beat that works
perfectly as a ringtone. Oh, and that I'm a daft wank with a poncey phone
that can play .wav files.
Simon Stuart
> Thats the one... it doesnt sound like TMW, but there is something about the
> melody that is similar
I listened again last night: you're dead right.
>> I rediscovered From The Hip when I ordered it from LTM a month ago: it has
>> absolutely blown me away. I've always had a soft spot for SXXV - I used to
>> live round the corner from Larry Cassidy in Blackpool - but for some
> reason,
>> eight years after I first heard it, this album has just clicked. It's
> sonic
>> perfection. Pure genius.
>
> Well of course S25 records used to always parallel JD records... they did
> Always Now in the same studios and during the same sessions as Closer and
> then From The Hip is essentially PCL Part II...
... with the colour-coded sleeve and everything ...
> when you put that record together with Crazy Wisdom you get the full impact of
> Bernards songwriting and production work around that period... I thought it
> sounded great on its release and it still sounds good... although I dont think
> the band themselves have much of anything, they are a good blank slate for
> producers or musical trends to work their magic on...
Mmm ... not sure I agree. I think they were very clever, very innovative
people, but that they had a tendency to be slightly passionless ...
listening to FTH, I get the impression that Barney was bouncing round the
studio trying to propel them to greatness (and succeeding too).
They did invent acid house, remember. No, honest ;)
http://www.ltmpub.freeserve.co.uk/sxxvbio.html
Holy fuck, I've just seen the full catalogue of live stuff LTM have got. I'm
off to buy it *all* ...
S
Simon Stuart
> I seem to be one of the few who has always liked Movement. Can't really tell
> you why but it's one of the few NO albums I can listen to all the way through
> without cringing at a really bad song. Nothing really great on there either
> though, I'll admit.
The Him is an astonishing song. And I *love* Movement. Always have, always
will ... although I have to admit I prefer the versions of the songs on
Taras Shevchenko. There's an intensity to them that's missing from the
record, which is very heavy; very, umm, opiated. Cheers, Martin ;)
> I agree that Rock the Shack is easily the worst NO song, and there have been
> some bad ones as mentioned - State of the Nation, Shellshock, We All Stand,
> Every Little Counts, a bunch of songs from Get Ready & Republic...I could go
> on. Plenty of clunkers to choose from, unfortunately.
>
> This thread has made me think...is there another band that has produced both
> such brilliant music and such horribly bad music over the years?
Hmm. No, probably. Sorry: that's not the most incisive and inspirational of
responses, but I think you've just about summed it up there ... at least for
a die-hard NO fan such as myself. Few bands operate at such extremes.
Still, that's a value judgement, isn't it? I'm quite sure many Pink Floyd or
Neil Young fans - those, that is, who are still capable of objectivity -
would feel the same about "their" bands.
And it's worth pointing out that a lot of the stuff I love right now (for
example Isis, Low, Arab Strap, Mogwai, Sigur Ros and Aereogramme) is too new
to judge: these bands have been around for six or seven years at the most,
and the chances are that at least one of them's gonna go very bad. Enjoy it
while you can, that's what I say. And remember that some new work of wonder
will always come along in a year or two.
S
Angus Bryant
> Kzinns2:
>
> > I seem to be one of the few who has always liked Movement. Can't really
tell
> > you why but it's one of the few NO albums I can listen to all the way
through
> > without cringing at a really bad song. Nothing really great on there
either
> > though, I'll admit.
>
> The Him is an astonishing song. And I *love* Movement. Always have, always
> will ... although I have to admit I prefer the versions of the songs on
> Taras Shevchenko. There's an intensity to them that's missing from the
> record, which is very heavy; very, umm, opiated. Cheers, Martin ;)
Same with the Peel Sessions versions of Truth, Senses, ICB and Dreams Never
End. Quality (esp. ICB). These sound much better than the Movement
versions.
Angus
DC
> For me, the Substance version sounds overworked. I much prefer the
Substance
> version of Temptation, though ...
>
It's funny you should say that because I thought the original Confusion was
badly produced; it sounded very flat with weedy synths and vocals. I
thought the 1987 version addressed this problem.
DC
AJ Wells
is there in the good work is not entirely of the artists own making... it
comes from somewhere else, which was where most of this bands music seemed
to come from at one time... we havent seen that splendid inconsistency for
awhile now though... all we have left is a dulling competency and
pastiches... hey there is the title of the next record!
"Competency And Pastiche"
If they only had the balls to call it that...
Ajw
"Simon Stuart" <simonma...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:BAAE4AD5.178E8%simonma...@btinternet.com...
AJ Wells
period wonderfully and was a lot of fun and sort of unexpected... but from a
songwriting standpoint it was thin and insubstantial and was the first NO
track that didnt raise those hairs up...
Ajw
"Simon Stuart" <simonma...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:BAAE44A5.178E1%simonma...@btinternet.com...
AJ Wells
> AJ Wells:
>
> > Thats the one... it doesnt sound like TMW, but there is something about
the
> > melody that is similar
>
> I listened again last night: you're dead right.
I think its in the same key or something... those wandering guitar pickings
are pretty close to TMW
>
> >> I rediscovered From The Hip when I ordered it from LTM a month ago: it
has
> >> absolutely blown me away. I've always had a soft spot for SXXV - I used
to
> >> live round the corner from Larry Cassidy in Blackpool - but for some
> > reason,
> >> eight years after I first heard it, this album has just clicked. It's
> > sonic
> >> perfection. Pure genius.
> >
> > Well of course S25 records used to always parallel JD records... they
did
> > Always Now in the same studios and during the same sessions as Closer
and
> > then From The Hip is essentially PCL Part II...
>
> ... with the colour-coded sleeve and everything ...
Yep down to the extensions of Saville's concepts of the period...
>
> > when you put that record together with Crazy Wisdom you get the full
impact of
> > Bernards songwriting and production work around that period... I thought
it
> > sounded great on its release and it still sounds good... although I dont
think
> > the band themselves have much of anything, they are a good blank slate
for
> > producers or musical trends to work their magic on...
>
> Mmm ... not sure I agree. I think they were very clever, very innovative
> people, but that they had a tendency to be slightly passionless ...
> listening to FTH, I get the impression that Barney was bouncing round the
> studio trying to propel them to greatness (and succeeding too).
I only base my sense of them on seeing a live show they did in SF just after
FTH in which they were the worst band I had ever seen up to that point...
the record was so good and they were so bad live that I had them down as
ciphers
>
> They did invent acid house, remember. No, honest ;)
And Al Gore invented the internet ;)
>
> http://www.ltmpub.freeserve.co.uk/sxxvbio.html
>
> Holy fuck, I've just seen the full catalogue of live stuff LTM have got.
I'm
> off to buy it *all* ...
I respect what they do, but none of those nostalgia trips have been very
rewarding to these ears... most of the music has lost a LOT over time (tried
listening to The Wake at all?)... but they are still interesting, if for no
other reason to recall a time in which anything was possible...
The best and most interesting reissues for me have been the ACR stuff... the
Early record shows how unfairly they were treated by the press at the time
and how they were really nothing like JD at all... and Flight is still one
of the greatest Hannett productions ever
Ajw
water cooler dictator
subculture i love (love-love-love-love), but the lp version is far superior.
bernard's weak(er than usual) voice on that track just rocks my
world...brilliant. i've never understood anti-state of the nation feeling.
anyone ever listened to it loud on a portable cd player? i think it sounds
great. there are some pretty naff other tracks on brotherhood whose name's
have escaped me. at least one anyway. i listened to it the other night and
shuddered. help anyone?
cheers,
-wcd-
--
-----------------------
"Being famous is just like not being famous, except more people look at me,
I have to wash my hair more often, and I can't buy pornography." - Brett
Anderson
"AJ Wells" <ajw...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:b62trl$fn2$1...@slb5.atl.mindspring.net...
> An interesting line of thought would be... what was the first bad NO song
> and why was it bad? For these ears the first song to fall short of the
mark
> was Confusion... written in a night it had none of the dimension that we
had
> come to expect from their records, which were the result of months and
> months of fooling around and distilling... it was the beginning of a line
of
> poor songs that continued with Subculture and moved through As It Is When
It
> Was... it took a holiday in the Technique period but reared its ugly head
> again with Liar... and now the entirety of Get Ready... whats next?
>
> Ajw
Simon Stuart
[Section 25]
>> Mmm ... not sure I agree. I think they were very clever, very innovative
>> people, but that they had a tendency to be slightly passionless ...
>> listening to FTH, I get the impression that Barney was bouncing round the
>> studio trying to propel them to greatness (and succeeding too).
>
> I only base my sense of them on seeing a live show they did in SF just after
> FTH in which they were the worst band I had ever seen up to that point...
> the record was so good and they were so bad live that I had them down as
> ciphers
Hmm, interesting: the sleevenotes for the From The Hip re-release suggest
their live shows were a thing of jaw-dropping awe. I'll reserve judgement
till I hear the live CD (but, of course, I'm 100% aware that my listening to
a live CD of an entirely different show won't even come close to replicating
your experience).
> I respect what they do, but none of those nostalgia trips have been very
> rewarding to these ears... most of the music has lost a LOT over time (tried
> listening to The Wake at all?)... but they are still interesting, if for no
> other reason to recall a time in which anything was possible...
Heheh, The Wake ... were they *ever* any good? I quite like them, insofar as
they're a paper-thin New Order facsimilie [1]. But they're hardly a classic
band. SXXV, on the other hand, were unjustly overlooked ...
> The best and most interesting reissues for me have been the ACR stuff... the
> Early record shows how unfairly they were treated by the press at the time
> and how they were really nothing like JD at all... and Flight is still one
> of the greatest Hannett productions ever
... yes, absolutely. Couldn't agree more.
S
[1] Actually, I seem to remember their first album - the JD rip-off - was
*way* better than any of their later stuff. That was when Bobby Gillespie
was still playing bass, I think.
Mike Moeslien
> For me, the Substance version sounds overworked. I much prefer the
> Substance version of Temptation, though ...
I'll agree here too. Although I truly love all three versions, I'd probably
pick the 87 version since it seems to be the structure they've officially
adopted - that's the way they play it live all the time. However, I
*really* like the mix of Temptation 98, a little cleaner and yet more
dynamic, but unfortunately they decided to cut the second half off of it.
Jay
the consensus here, then cool, fine, great... but I think it's a pretty
good album. So maybe it's not Low-Life per se, but it beats the hell
out of Republic (even though there are jewels on there like.. well..
just Regret lol). I hope I don't get eaten alive for my opinions, cuz I
fully respect all of yours. As to worst song, I cringe every time I
listen to Every Little Counts and hear that little goof up of Bernard's
(did they think it would be cute to leave that on there?). The worst
single (or more acurately, "pretty good song, but just a strange pick
for something promotional") would have to be Fine Time... even the
original sounds like a strange dub version... ah if only they had gone
ahead and released Vanishing Point as a single. Heh heh. So that's just
my 2 cents... (I may be almost 21 years old, but I do have 285
NewOrder/Joy Division songs in my collection). :)
pt
time!
what you talking about!
"Jay" <soundan...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:26023-3E8...@storefull-2232.public.lawson.webtv.net...
curry wuerstel
>Is Proclaimed by me to be:
>
>Turn My Way
Rock The Shack (for more modern NO)
State Of The Nation (for the pre 87 stuff)
mike
Mike Moeslien
news:75ol8vgjt0ta7m4n8...@4ax.com:
> Rock The Shack (for more modern NO)
> State Of The Nation (for the pre 87 stuff)
Agreed 100%
Telboy
those birds singing on it, and at times the sequncer seems to be going at a
different speed to everything else as it is so high up in the mix.
Tel
"Mike Moeslien" <megas...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9351554E77...@205.188.138.161...
AJ Wells
> AJ Wells:
>
> [Section 25]
> >> Mmm ... not sure I agree. I think they were very clever, very
innovative
> >> people, but that they had a tendency to be slightly passionless ...
> >> listening to FTH, I get the impression that Barney was bouncing round
the
> >> studio trying to propel them to greatness (and succeeding too).
> >
> > I only base my sense of them on seeing a live show they did in SF just
after
> > FTH in which they were the worst band I had ever seen up to that
point...
> > the record was so good and they were so bad live that I had them down as
> > ciphers
>
> Hmm, interesting: the sleevenotes for the From The Hip re-release suggest
> their live shows were a thing of jaw-dropping awe. I'll reserve judgement
> till I hear the live CD (but, of course, I'm 100% aware that my listening
to
> a live CD of an entirely different show won't even come close to
replicating
> your experience).
I remember bumping into Larry Cassidy on the street around Nob Hill before
the show and he was blown away that anyone recognized him... I was looking
forward to the show, but as I said it was pretty weak... equipment mess ups
and the guitar songs were thin and lifeless... dont remember it in detail
because those were the days in which I enjoyed myself at concerts a little
too much, but my critical faculties remained sharp... or at least I recall
that they do ;)
>
> > I respect what they do, but none of those nostalgia trips have been very
> > rewarding to these ears... most of the music has lost a LOT over time
(tried
> > listening to The Wake at all?)... but they are still interesting, if for
no
> > other reason to recall a time in which anything was possible...
>
> Heheh, The Wake ... were they *ever* any good? I quite like them, insofar
as
> they're a paper-thin New Order facsimilie [1]. But they're hardly a
classic
> band. SXXV, on the other hand, were unjustly overlooked ...
>
> > The best and most interesting reissues for me have been the ACR stuff...
the
> > Early record shows how unfairly they were treated by the press at the
time
> > and how they were really nothing like JD at all... and Flight is still
one
> > of the greatest Hannett productions ever
>
> ... yes, absolutely. Couldn't agree more.
>
> S
>
> [1] Actually, I seem to remember their first album - the JD rip-off - was
> *way* better than any of their later stuff. That was when Bobby Gillespie
> was still playing bass, I think.
(laughing) Always funny to me to think of Bobby Gillespie playing
ANYTHING... but yes the first one was a little closer to the source material
than the later NO ripoffs... but that singer Caesar always drove me nuts...
he sounded like he needed to be beat up
Ajw
AJ Wells
news:26023-3E8...@storefull-2232.public.lawson.webtv.net...
> the consensus here, then cool, fine, great... but I think it's a pretty
> good album. So maybe it's not Low-Life per se, but it beats the hell
> out of Republic (even though there are jewels on there like.. well..
> just Regret lol).
Its not only the consensus around here, chippy... its general critical and
listener sentiment... check around and you will find Republic to be well
reviewed and respected both upon release and in retrospect... and Get Ready
to be generally despised, laughed at and denegrated by most upon release and
in retrospect... do enjoy if you must, but please beware that it is indeed a
guilty pleasure and you should feel oh so uncool for liking it ;)
>I hope I don't get eaten alive for my opinions, cuz I
> fully respect all of yours. As to worst song, I cringe every time I
> listen to Every Little Counts and hear that little goof up of Bernard's
> (did they think it would be cute to leave that on there?).
Yes that was an actually funny joke at the time... still pretty funny to
these ears
> The worst
> single (or more acurately, "pretty good song, but just a strange pick
> for something promotional") would have to be Fine Time... even the
> original sounds like a strange dub version...
Boy this band sure puts out some STRANGE music dont they? Hell they even
put out some things that I dont really understand or grasp the context of
due to my age or lack of perception! Surely that must mean that those songs
are HORRIBLE!
>ah if only they had gone
> ahead and released Vanishing Point as a single. Heh heh. So that's just
> my 2 cents... (I may be almost 21 years old, but I do have 285
> NewOrder/Joy Division songs in my collection). :)
And in this case SIZE COUNTS!
Ajw
Simon Stuart
from the (thoroughly justified) Get Ready-bashing ... at least it makes a
difference for those of us not threading by article number.)
AJ Wells:
> I remember bumping into Larry Cassidy on the street around Nob Hill before
> the show and he was blown away that anyone recognized him...
Not half as blown away as he was when Ian (my musical cohort) and I turned
up on his doorstep in 1994 claiming to be his biggest fans [1]. He was a
*right* grumpy bastard - but, in fairness, he did give us lots of tea and
treated us to some top on-the-road-with-New-Order stories. Then he moaned a
lot about Wilson. I really, really liked him: a curmudgeonly cove, but a
thoroughly decent one.
[The Wake]
> (laughing) Always funny to me to think of Bobby Gillespie playing
> ANYTHING... but yes the first one was a little closer to the source material
> than the later NO ripoffs... but that singer Caesar always drove me nuts...
> he sounded like he needed to be beat up
They did an album on Sarah in 1991 called Make It Loud (now rereleased
through ATM as - I think - Holy Head) which contains a song called Joke
Shop. It's basically a protracted whinge about Factory and contains an awful
verse along the lines of "When they put out our EP/You couldn't find it/In
the superstores" (the scansion and rhyming really are that bad).
What the fuck did the punchable poltroon expect? The irony is staggering: if
The Wake hadn't been on Factory, they'd have had no fans *at all*. Factory's
studied cool/arty pretentiousness/whatever meant legions of overcoated JD/NO
fans flocked to buy their second-rate tunes [2]. Talk about biting the hand
that fed you!
S
[1] We were 18 and very impressionable. Give us a break.
[2] Talk About The Past and the entire first album excepted, natch. I really
must buy that ... Harmony, was it? ... my copy was borrowed by the legendary
Bob Mills from Edinburgh, who was sectioned shortly afterwards. (I don't
think the two events were related, but you never know.)
Mike Moeslien
news:eZBia.11587$Ti5....@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk:
> The first song that I thought was really shit was the remix of
> Subculture, those birds singing on it, and at times the sequncer seems
> to be going at a different speed to everything else as it is so high
> up in the mix.
>
Man, am I the *only* one who actually likes the Subculture remix? A bit
overdone, certainly, but that's maybe part of it's charm for me. It's like
Subculture turned up to eleven.
Jp
"Liar" and... the complete second Electronic LP !
"Max Chuang" <mach@[nospam]csua.berkeley.edu> a écrit dans le message news:
b6hu93$mec$1...@agate.berkeley.edu...
> In article <5b8572d3.03033...@posting.google.com>,
> M Shah <komak...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >Never been much of a fan of backing vocals on NO records, you see, and
> >"Someone Like You" is a case in point. And it's not just NO
> >stuff..."Second Nature" off RTP was *totally* spoilt by the presence
> >of non-Barney vocals.
>
> Actually, I thought Second Nature was one of the few highlights off
> RTP, and the backing vocals kind of fit.
>
>
> Max
> --
>
Simon Stuart
> No, you're not on your own, I prefer it to the Low-Life version. It may be
> OTT, but at least the singing isn't embarrassing, and Sumner manages to get
> the words right: on the Low-Life version he sings "a view without a room",
> whereas on the remix he sings the intended "a room without a view"- how the
> "a view without a room" makes me cringe...
In what way is "a view without a room" any more cringeworthy than 99% of
Barney's other lyrics? It makes more sense than a lot of them ;)
S
DC
> Man, am I the *only* one who actually likes the Subculture remix? A bit
> overdone, certainly, but that's maybe part of it's charm for me. It's like
> Subculture turned up to eleven.
No, you're not on your own, I prefer it to the Low-Life version. It may be
OTT, but at least the singing isn't embarrassing, and Sumner manages to get
the words right: on the Low-Life version he sings "a view without a room",
whereas on the remix he sings the intended "a room without a view"- how the
"a view without a room" makes me cringe...
DC
Angus Bryant
Doesn't "a view without a room" rhyme with the line after it (ends in "soon"
from what I remember)? If so, that would explain why he's inverted it.
I reckon the LP version is better than the single, but yes his singing is
appalling in it and it does let the song down. Still better than the single
version though, even with the dodgy singing.
Angus
DC
"Simon Stuart" <simonma...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:BAB26407.17AC3%simonma...@btinternet.com...
I think what it is: "a room without a view" is a common expression -
especially if you have holidays like mine - and *appears* to fit into the
context of the song; Sub-culture being very shady and all that...
DC
Mat
And, that Republic otherwise is quite fine. Well, except for Young
Offender. I skip those 2 in a row on Republic.
-mat tarbox
"AJ Wells" <ajw...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:b62tgd$mqm$1...@slb9.atl.mindspring.net...
> Yes I think that Rock The Shack takes the cake in a contest that has all
too
> many contenders...
>
> Previous to Get Ready I had Liar down as my worst NO song... an
embarassment
> in the middle of the Elegant elegy that was Republic... but now Get Ready
> comes along and almost every track could be the worst NO has ever done...
> but I would have to agree that RTS is the winner because its just so damn
> awful... a "roots rocker" that has neither roots nor rock... its just
fookin
> awful
>
> Ajw
>
> "DC" <d...@NOSPAMblueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:3TIga.121$th5...@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk...
> >
> > > Go ahead, play it. Listen to it if you can. Report back here and let
> me
> > > know, what song is worse than that one? None, right?
> > >
> > > -Mat Austin Tarbox
> >
> > I don't have to, I already know it sucks big time (as you Americans
say).
> I
> > think Rock the Shack should steal the crown (even when respecting your
fun
> > song argument). Slow Jam is also god awful according to my ears...
> >
> > DC
> >
> >
>
>
>
Allen Jarvis
> Its not only the consensus around here, chippy... its general critical and
> listener sentiment... check around and you will find Republic to be well
> reviewed and respected both upon release and in retrospect... and Get
Ready
> to be generally despised, laughed at and denegrated by most upon release
and
> in retrospect... do enjoy if you must, but please beware that it is indeed
a
> guilty pleasure and you should feel oh so uncool for liking it ;)
>
Come, come, AJ. All of the above is a Very Big White Lie, now isn't it?
Just because you state something with absolute clarity and conviction
doesn't
necessarily mean any of it is true. To what 'general critical and listener
sentiment' are you referring? State your sources, please. Are we just
talking about 'what your mates in Hicksville, USA, think?' or do you have
an untapped source of knowledge to which I'm unaware?
I've been one of the more active fans during Republic and Get Ready - I
certainly don't know anyone who's seen them more times than me over this
period, bar roadies and the suchlike, of course - so obviously know One
Hell Of A Lot Of People who follow this band. But, to be honest, I've yet
to meet anyone who rates Republic over Get Ready. You might know such
people, I certainly don't. Of course, I'm talking about the 'ardcore here,
obviously, but being the type of fan I am I also have just about every
major music cutting of New Order since their birth: I can't actually think
of a genuine stinker of a review for either album, so perhaps you could
point me in the direction of one, just to bolster your assertions.
Till then, at least try and qualify everything with IMhO.
Regards, as always.
Allen Jarvis
> (did they think it would be cute to leave that on there?). The worst
> single (or more acurately, "pretty good song, but just a strange pick
> for something promotional") would have to be Fine Time...
Very much a song of its time, and I can see why a 21 year old might miss the
point. Acid house was breaking in the UK, and New Order followed the trend.
Simple as that.
First heard Fine Time over some footage of the Hacienda on Reportage(was it,
or Rapido?) and just thought it was Another Acid Track, but when Peel
announced New Order's new single and played THAT I was gutted. And I was one
of those loons who spent much of the summer of 88 fuct out me face in
warehouses, wearing dungarees and a big grin. Still, I was only a young 'un,
what did I know? Learned to love the track, mind - the bass at the end is
one of Hooky's finer moments, IMO.
Confusion was similar in concept - latching onto electro, then the 'latest
thang', when no one else was, bar danceheads of course. Freeez's IOU was
infinitely better in its day, mind! ;-)
M Shah
Skipping songs on Republic...why? :)
AJ Wells
news:b6m9k3$cc3$1...@taliesin2.netcom.net.uk...
> >
> > Its not only the consensus around here, chippy... its general critical
and
> > listener sentiment... check around and you will find Republic to be well
> > reviewed and respected both upon release and in retrospect... and Get
> Ready
> > to be generally despised, laughed at and denegrated by most upon release
> and
> > in retrospect... do enjoy if you must, but please beware that it is
indeed
> a
> > guilty pleasure and you should feel oh so uncool for liking it ;)
> >
>
> Come, come, AJ. All of the above is a Very Big White Lie, now isn't it?
> Just because you state something with absolute clarity and conviction
> doesn't
> necessarily mean any of it is true.
Its what is known as "sarcasm"... haul that dictionary out, Jeeves...
>To what 'general critical and listener
> sentiment' are you referring? State your sources, please. Are we just
> talking about 'what your mates in Hicksville, USA, think?' or do you have
> an untapped source of knowledge to which I'm unaware?
No just a cross section of listeners and writers...
>
> I've been one of the more active fans during Republic and Get Ready - I
> certainly don't know anyone who's seen them more times than me over this
> period, bar roadies and the suchlike, of course - so obviously know One
> Hell Of A Lot Of People who follow this band. But, to be honest, I've yet
> to meet anyone who rates Republic over Get Ready.
(laughing) well you need to widen that circle of friends out to include some
real listeners as opposed to fawning fans...
>You might know such
> people, I certainly don't.
Do you really know people who loved what New Order started out as and still
really love them? I must have about 8 to 10 friends who I saw at the first
NO show at the Cinema in San Francisco in 1980 and none of them still listen
to this band... some have gotten old and boring, true... but most are
critical listeners who moved on after hearing how bad the solo projects
were... I really dont see much overlap in the original audience and the
current audience at all... which is probably why you get the unqualified
support of a mediocre record...
Hell none of my friends liked all of what NO put out even in the 80s and
early 90s... thats what was nice about people who listened to the band...
they thought for themselves...
>Of course, I'm talking about the 'ardcore here,
> obviously, but being the type of fan I am I also have just about every
> major music cutting of New Order since their birth:
Well I have followed the band since the beginning as well, but I suppose the
difference is that I am not a FAN... I am a listener who has enjoyed the
good music that the band has made over the years but has no personal
investment in wanting to believe that bad work is good simply because I
project myself onto them as most fans do...
> I can't actually think
> of a genuine stinker of a review for either album, so perhaps you could
> point me in the direction of one, just to bolster your assertions.
If you were truly the rabid fan that you profess, you would have spotted all
of the reviews one by one as they were published in various places... but
here is a good one that puts it pretty well... cant recall which mag this is
from, but it was in my snippets file
NEW ORDER Get Ready (London)
So here it is, after an eight year wait during which all we've had to
sustain us is the thin gruel of Electronic, Monaco and The Other Two albums,
finally the latest New Order album is with us. And as if you couldn't
predict it, it's a crushing disappointment. If your torch totem of New Order
is that of the band that produced the majority of the greatest electronic
pop music ever fashioned, the band whose every utterance dripped melancholy
and melody in roughly equal proportions, look away now, because "Get Ready"
resurrects the rather less successful guitar-band New Order ghost. (When
were New Order ever a guitar band , you might reasonably ask? Only for the
duration of their debut feature "Movement", for which they could be forgiven
since they were still attempting to cast off the chains of Joy Division, the
first, less successful side of "Brotherhood" and some of the glossy,
unsatisfying "Republic" album.)
And that's the problem with "Get Ready": there's approaching zero of any
real substance here, leaving you scrabbling vainly to take something of
value away from the listening experience. There are a few semi-passable
tracks that are more than likely going to prove the final death throe gasps
of the electro New Order I knew and loved ("Vicious Streak", "Someone Like
You"), and the appearance of former Smashing Pumpkin singer Billy Corgan
during "Turn My Way" at least gives it something the other tracks haven't
got. ("Get Ready" hangs heavy with guest appearances, at least by New
Order's usual hermetically sealed, insular standards: Bobby Gillespie and
Andrew Innes of Primal Scream pop up later on "Rock The Shack" - my shack
remained conspicuously unrocked, despite their presence.) There's only one
song here that I would classify as anywhere near good, that being the closer
"Run Wild", which, with its back-porch acoustic guitar, melodica and
synthetic string section is apart from just about anything else the band
have released. But elsewhere all that makes this not an Electronic album is
Hooky's slithering, grumbling bass, and all that distances it from the
Monaco back catalogue is that Bernard's doing the singing, not Pottsy. In
other words, "Get Ready" is an album so bereft of spark, imagination and
luscious melody that it makes "Republic" look like an oasis of invention by
comparison. At their current workrate the next New Order album should arrive
in 2009 - it's probably not worth waiting up for it.
Pretty much says it all
Ajw
Mat
> >I skip those 2 in a row on Republic.
>
> Skipping songs on Republic...why? :)
because they sound like Pet Shop Boyz unreleased b-sides..... !!!! :^>
Mat
some would say Fine Time. But I dig that one for some odd reason. Maybe
because when I first heard it I was floating above the planet on some fine
acid.... and listened to it 100 times in a row, so it is like embedded in my
brain.....
-tarbox
"Angus Bryant" <at...@cam.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:b65kb3$gus$1...@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk...
> "Mat" <m...@snet.net> wrote in message
> news:L_nha.9780$ub2.240...@newssvr10.news.prodigy.com...
> >
> > I would argue that every New Order lp has one bad song on it. New
Order,
> > exceptionally, has only like 8 bad songs total (as unlike most bands
which
> > believe an lp should be two hit singles with 7 pieces of crap, new order
> > (naively?) thought lps were supposed to be 8 hit singles....) - somehow
> they
> > managed to never have two bad songs on any lp, but instead they are all
> > spread out.
>
> I'm struggling to think of a bad song on Technique...
>
> Angus
>
>
>
Mat
> Oh by the way, Turn My Way is not a bad melody... its a lift from Bernards
> chord changes from the intro to S25's From The Hip record... what was that
> called? Inspiration I think...
>
> Its a bad song though
>
> Ajw
Inspiration is one of my favorite songs ever. I used to play it endlessly
in the 80s.... "rhythm is my..... god...."
I love that lp. Need to get it again..... time for winmx.....
AJ, I must say I am quite impressed you noticed the same chords.... hmmm....
maybe i should be nicer to you in the future. i am way impressed right now.
i would not have noticed that in a thousand years, despite having
Inspiration branded into my memory.....
-mat tarbox
Mat
> up on his doorstep in 1994 claiming to be his biggest fans [1]. He was a
> *right* grumpy bastard - but, in fairness, he did give us lots of tea and
> treated us to some top on-the-road-with-New-Order stories. Then he moaned
a
> lot about Wilson. I really, really liked him: a curmudgeonly cove, but a
> thoroughly decent one.
what is up with tea? are you using it the way keroauc did, to mean
something else, smokeable with leaves?
or, in britain, do people really get excited to sit down and have tea?
i am honestly wondering. i really cannot imagine being impressed someone
asked me to have a cup of tea....
what am i missing? or am i just a crude american???
-mat tarbox
p.s. sorry to be so naive....
AJ Wells
> "AJ Wells" <ajw...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
> news:b659t4$uog$1...@slb3.atl.mindspring.net...
> > Oh by the way, Turn My Way is not a bad melody... its a lift from
Bernards
> > chord changes from the intro to S25's From The Hip record... what was
that
> > called? Inspiration I think...
> >
> > Its a bad song though
> >
> > Ajw
>
> Inspiration is one of my favorite songs ever. I used to play it endlessly
> in the 80s.... "rhythm is my..... god...."
>
> I love that lp. Need to get it again..... time for winmx.....
Or you could go to your record shop and buy the reissue so the boys see a
little cash
>
>
> AJ, I must say I am quite impressed you noticed the same chords....
hmmm....
> maybe i should be nicer to you in the future. i am way impressed right
now.
> i would not have noticed that in a thousand years, despite having
> Inspiration branded into my memory.....
>
> -mat tarbox
Sonny, I've forgotten far more than you'll ever know... if you open up that
tiny mind of yours you will benefit from a number of my cogent, insightful
takes ;)
Ajw
Allen Jarvis
You really are incorrigble, aren't you, AJ?
> (laughing) well you need to widen that circle of friends out to include
some
> real listeners as opposed to fawning fans...
Fawning fans? Haven't I already said just how disappointing many
fans found Republic? You slate Get Ready, but then try and
back up your irritations by quoting, well, no-one in particular, really. I
reacted to this thread simply because you seemed to imply to a 21 year
old newbie that seemingly everyone loathed Get Ready, which patently
isn't the case.
> Do you really know people who loved what New Order started out as and
still
> really love them? I must have about 8 to 10 friends who I saw at the
first
(laughing) 8 or 10 friends? YOU HAVE 8 or 10 friends? I've heard it all now!
;-)
> none of them still listen
> to this band... some have gotten old and boring, true...
Then why aren't they also here, daily, berating the band's current output as
a result
and telling us how great everything was in the good ol' days? Like you?
> I really dont see much overlap in the original audience and the
> current audience at all...
Come, come. What are STILL the biggest songs live for New Order?
The ones which get the best reaction from any audience?
Ceremony and Temptation by the proverbial landslide. Even today's
young 'uns know what's hot, and what's not. And, yes, I do know
40-somethings who still do New Order gigs, and the average age of
any audience I've seen over the past couple of years is always 30+.
We're not talking about entire audiences of teenagers who've just
latched onto the band thru' Get Ready, now are we? The overall
demographic is still overwhelmingly older, longer-term fans. As,
I'm sure is their record-buying public, in the main.
> Well I have followed the band since the beginning as well, but I suppose
the
> difference is that I am not a FAN...
Thus far, you've replied to this one thread nigh on 20 times. So at what
point
does one become a fan then? And where does one draw the line? From my
forays into this newsgroup you are always Mr Uber-poster. So, you're not a
fan, but you do appear to like the association of your name, with New
Order's? Is there a certain kudos here, perhaps? Go on, say it's so!
> If you were truly the rabid fan that you profess, you would have spotted
all
> of the reviews one by one as they were published in various places... but
> here is a good one that puts it pretty well... cant recall which mag this
is
> from, but it was in my snippets file
This was a personal opinion on the 'Mensa Rock Special Interest Group'
... whatever that is? Nothing 'official' surely, though I may be wrong,
just one man's opinion which you obviously agree with. Perhaps it's you
writing this, I dunno? It doesn't cut much ice with me, however. I have
a differing opinion, and that's that.
If we want to quote facts and figures I notice that amazon.com has an
average rating of 3.5/5 for Republic, but 4.5/5 for Get Ready (from
160 reviews!), along with Low-Life and Technique (so GR's held in good
company, surely, Stateside?). But, of course, it's all these wannabe
critics who are mad, and you're the only sane one, huh?
Having said that, Rolling Stone gave Republic 4, and GR 3.5
Either way, not really a 'stinker' on either side.
regards, as ever.
Jimmy Jazz
you?
AJ Wells
>
> You really are incorrigble, aren't you, AJ?
Basically...
> > (laughing) well you need to widen that circle of friends out to include
> some
> > real listeners as opposed to fawning fans...
>
> Fawning fans? Haven't I already said just how disappointing many
> fans found Republic?
I never heard any disappointment among fans upon its release other than to
say that Hagues production may be a touch too glossy... but thats what they
WANTED
>You slate Get Ready, but then try and
> back up your irritations by quoting, well, no-one in particular, really. I
> reacted to this thread simply because you seemed to imply to a 21 year
> old newbie that seemingly everyone loathed Get Ready, which patently
> isn't the case.
(laughing) ah yes those whose views dont jibe with ours are "no one in
particular"
>
>
> > Do you really know people who loved what New Order started out as and
> still
> > really love them? I must have about 8 to 10 friends who I saw at the
> first
>
> (laughing) 8 or 10 friends? YOU HAVE 8 or 10 friends? I've heard it all
now!
> ;-)
Isnt it amazing? the truly sick thing is that I'm a dreadfully nice
person... in person
>
>
> > none of them still listen
> > to this band... some have gotten old and boring, true...
>
> Then why aren't they also here, daily, berating the band's current output
as
> a result
> and telling us how great everything was in the good ol' days? Like you?
Not a one... it gets lonely around here, but I signed up for the job and I'm
going to finish it
>
>
> > I really dont see much overlap in the original audience and the
> > current audience at all...
>
> Come, come. What are STILL the biggest songs live for New Order?
> The ones which get the best reaction from any audience?
> Ceremony and Temptation by the proverbial landslide. Even today's
> young 'uns know what's hot, and what's not.
And wouldnt it be great if the band played something OTHER than what the
audience wanted to hear? I recall thats all that they played at one point
And, yes, I do know
> 40-somethings who still do New Order gigs, and the average age of
> any audience I've seen over the past couple of years is always 30+.
> We're not talking about entire audiences of teenagers who've just
> latched onto the band thru' Get Ready, now are we? The overall
> demographic is still overwhelmingly older, longer-term fans. As,
> I'm sure is their record-buying public, in the main.
I'm just talking about my experience of seeing friends and acquaintences at
shows over the years... I am the only one left of the circle of people who
used to attend these shows religiously up until the mid 90s
>
>
> > Well I have followed the band since the beginning as well, but I suppose
> the
> > difference is that I am not a FAN...
>
> Thus far, you've replied to this one thread nigh on 20 times. So at what
> point
> does one become a fan then?
When one buys the Tshirt without thinking about it... when one consumes the
entertainment event without being the least bit critical... when one accepts
anything that the artist gives and is grateful for it... then you are a FAN
>And where does one draw the line? From my
> forays into this newsgroup you are always Mr Uber-poster. So, you're not a
> fan, but you do appear to like the association of your name, with New
> Order's? Is there a certain kudos here, perhaps? Go on, say it's so!
(laughing) oh yes I love the fame and fortune that hunting and pecking my
way through little breaks in my work day accord me! I will be going on tour
opening for the band next year, reading from my lame, asinine posts backed
up by the Invisible Girls
>
>
> > If you were truly the rabid fan that you profess, you would have spotted
> all
> > of the reviews one by one as they were published in various places...
but
> > here is a good one that puts it pretty well... cant recall which mag
this
> is
> > from, but it was in my snippets file
>
> This was a personal opinion on the 'Mensa Rock Special Interest Group'
> ... whatever that is? Nothing 'official' surely, though I may be wrong,
(laughing) is that where this review came from? I love it! I had just
thrown it into a file with the other writings I found entertaining on the
record...
> just one man's opinion which you obviously agree with. Perhaps it's you
> writing this, I dunno? It doesn't cut much ice with me, however. I have
> a differing opinion, and that's that.
As we all know, critics who dont agree with us dont know what the hell they
are talking about!
>
> If we want to quote facts and figures I notice that amazon.com has an
> average rating of 3.5/5 for Republic, but 4.5/5 for Get Ready (from
> 160 reviews!), along with Low-Life and Technique (so GR's held in good
> company, surely, Stateside?). But, of course, it's all these wannabe
> critics who are mad, and you're the only sane one, huh?
(roaring and falling off chair) I love it! I would imagine the same nitwits
rate War And Peace a 3 stars out of 5 while giving the latest Danielle Steel
feces an 11 on a scale of 10!!
>
> Having said that, Rolling Stone gave Republic 4, and GR 3.5
well that makes Republic .5 better then doesnt it? (laughing) come on
man... Rolling Stone gives Christina Aguilera serious review space these
days! I cant imagine someone talking seriously about music and quoting
Rolling Stone... now if you compare the Mensa groups opinions on both
records, maybe you have an accurate barometer ;)
>
> Either way, not really a 'stinker' on either side.
I would say wait and let history sort it out, but history sorted in out
within weeks of the records release... a critical and popular bomb any way
you slice it... Entertainment Weekly and People magazine fluff pieces aside,
Get Ready is an unqualified bomb... you can love it all you want, but its an
awful record that will only lose stature as time ticks away
Cheers!
Ajw
AJ Wells
news:b6sq36$m6c$1...@titan.btinternet.com...
No... my review was a negative one... ;)
Ajw
Simon Stuart
>> Not half as blown away as he was when Ian (my musical cohort) and I turned
>> up on his doorstep in 1994 claiming to be his biggest fans [1]. He was a
>> *right* grumpy bastard - but, in fairness, he did give us lots of tea and
>> treated us to some top on-the-road-with-New-Order stories.
> what is up with tea? are you using it the way keroauc did, to mean
> something else, smokeable with leaves?
Heheh. Don't think *anyone's* used "tea" in that context that since the
1960s, have they?
> or, in britain, do people really get excited to sit down and have tea?
Er, yes. Well, I do.
> i am honestly wondering. i really cannot imagine being impressed someone
> asked me to have a cup of tea....
Man, I *love* tea. It's magic.
> what am i missing? or am i just a crude american???
>
> -mat tarbox
>
> p.s. sorry to be so naive....
Not naive, nor crude: guess I just like tea more than you!
S
Allen Jarvis
> I never heard any disappointment among fans upon its release other than to
> say that Hagues production may be a touch too glossy... but thats what
they
> WANTED
Didn't you yourself state Liar was their worst moment, pre Get Ready? So,
that was purely down to production, yes?
> Isnt it amazing? the truly sick thing is that I'm a dreadfully nice
> person... in person
Ah, now I get you. You turn into a Regular Tough Guy behind the keyboard,
right? It's all making sense now.. .
> And wouldnt it be great if the band played something OTHER than what the
> audience wanted to hear? I recall thats all that they played at one point
(laughing) And which gigs were these, exactly? State sources, AJ. Quite
frankly, I'd have thought that's exactly what they're doing now ... surely?
Trotting out the Greatest Hits doesn't go down well with most fans. They
know
exactly how we feel, yet still we get two fingers stuck up at us. Very Rock
&
Roll that, surely? They play just they want. I thought you'd probably
appreciate
the same-set every night in some warped way? Surely you could read an
artistic statement between the lines somewhere?
> When one buys the Tshirt without thinking about it... when one consumes
the
> entertainment event without being the least bit critical... when one
accepts
> anything that the artist gives and is grateful for it... then you are a
FAN
But when one wastes their waking life posting endlessly to this newsgroup,
they
are not a fan? Oh, please. Your name appears here more than any other
poster. You're just kidding yourself, you're as much a fan as any other mug
punter here. Of course, you'd rather see yourself as a musical peer, but
I'm sorry that just ain't the case yet, is it?
>
> If we want to quote facts and figures I notice that amazon.com has an
> average rating of 3.5/5 for Republic, but 4.5/5 for Get Ready
> (roaring and falling off chair) I love it! I would imagine the same
nitwits
> rate War And Peace a 3 stars out of 5 while giving the latest Danielle
Steel
> feces an 11 on a scale of 10!!
Decent ordinary people, AJ, decent ordinary people. They may give War &
Peace 3 out of 5 (it actually got 4.5, you can't please everybody), but
aren't these
simply a Cross Section of the 'real listeners' you were referring to
earlier, and
not just 'fawning fans'? Regular Joes, as I believe you Americans might say?
So, you'll damn the views of 160 indepedent reviews on amazon.com, but then
copy some lone geek's thoughts in support of your own, as if this only holds
worth because you agree with him/her?
>
> Either way, not really a 'stinker' on either side.
> I would say wait and let history sort it out, but history sorted in out
> within weeks of the records release... a critical and popular bomb any way
> you slice it...
You would say black is white, if you thought you could get away with it,
wouldn't you AJ. But still with little to back up your assertations other
than
your own conviction and gusto. Which is obviously to be applauded,
even if you're sometimes a little misplaced. You didn't like it,
therefore it bombed. Why exactly did this bomb? We've already
proved that there's little critical review you can quote which saw this
slated, so perhaps we could quote sales figures ... if anyone knows
them, which I doubt, though surely someone could conjure some
up for us?
AJ Wells
>
> > I never heard any disappointment among fans upon its release other than
to
> > say that Hagues production may be a touch too glossy... but thats what
> they
> > WANTED
>
> Didn't you yourself state Liar was their worst moment, pre Get Ready? So,
> that was purely down to production, yes?
It was an embarassing moment for me, but overall the record held together
well and reflected the times in which it was made in and under the
circumstances it was recorded in...
>
>
> > Isnt it amazing? the truly sick thing is that I'm a dreadfully nice
> > person... in person
>
> Ah, now I get you. You turn into a Regular Tough Guy behind the keyboard,
> right? It's all making sense now.. .
Actually that was sarcastic... I'm a mean git in person as well... you cant
fake this funk
>
>
> > And wouldnt it be great if the band played something OTHER than what the
> > audience wanted to hear? I recall thats all that they played at one
point
>
> (laughing) And which gigs were these, exactly? State sources, AJ.
I recall a number of gigs where they played little known songs from PCL
during that period, from Low Life during that period etc etc... their set
list changed almost every night, which was why you could go and see them two
or three nights in a row and never see the same show twice... I'm not going
to give you a list, but its all in the gigographies...
>Quite
> frankly, I'd have thought that's exactly what they're doing now ...
surely?
Actually they hit on their greates hit setlist in the early 90s and have
stuck with that with minor variations...
> Trotting out the Greatest Hits doesn't go down well with most fans.
Are you serious? have you been to a recent gig where people didnt love
being spoonfed their nostalgia? they LOVE it! I saw the lighers come out
during LWTUA
>They
> know
> exactly how we feel, yet still we get two fingers stuck up at us. Very
Rock
> &
> Roll that, surely? They play just they want. I thought you'd probably
> appreciate
> the same-set every night in some warped way? Surely you could read an
> artistic statement between the lines somewhere?
No I read that as laziness and having sequencers and session players who
need cueing
>
>
> > When one buys the Tshirt without thinking about it... when one consumes
> the
> > entertainment event without being the least bit critical... when one
> accepts
> > anything that the artist gives and is grateful for it... then you are a
> FAN
>
> But when one wastes their waking life posting endlessly to this newsgroup,
> they
> are not a fan?
Mm thats not a fan... thats a loser who spends too much time in front of the
screen... I think being a fan is less heinous actually...
>Oh, please. Your name appears here more than any other
> poster. You're just kidding yourself, you're as much a fan as any other
mug
> punter here. Of course, you'd rather see yourself as a musical peer, but
> I'm sorry that just ain't the case yet, is it?
(laughing) Actually I'm just an average joe who loves music and who has had
the pleasure of growing up in the times that produced this music... am I a
fan? I suppose to some I am... to others I'm not... it doesnt really matter
does it? the main thing is that you think I'm a loser who posts far too
much and you are probably right... but if you look you will see that you
have posted a lot of posts complaining about how many posts I post... ;)
>
> >
> > If we want to quote facts and figures I notice that amazon.com has an
> > average rating of 3.5/5 for Republic, but 4.5/5 for Get Ready
> > (roaring and falling off chair) I love it! I would imagine the same
> nitwits
> > rate War And Peace a 3 stars out of 5 while giving the latest Danielle
> Steel
> > feces an 11 on a scale of 10!!
>
> Decent ordinary people, AJ, decent ordinary people. They may give War &
> Peace 3 out of 5 (it actually got 4.5, you can't please everybody),
(laughing) I should have known you would know the score on that one! That
is hilarious!
>but
> aren't these
> simply a Cross Section of the 'real listeners' you were referring to
> earlier, and
> not just 'fawning fans'?
I dont know... if they agree with me, I suppose they are indeed "real
listeners", but since they dont, I will go with the "fawning fan"
designation...
>Regular Joes, as I believe you Americans might say?
> So, you'll damn the views of 160 indepedent reviews on amazon.com, but
then
> copy some lone geek's thoughts in support of your own, as if this only
holds
> worth because you agree with him/her?
See above
>
> >
> > Either way, not really a 'stinker' on either side.
> > I would say wait and let history sort it out, but history sorted in out
> > within weeks of the records release... a critical and popular bomb any
way
> > you slice it...
>
> You would say black is white, if you thought you could get away with it,
> wouldn't you AJ. But still with little to back up your assertations other
> than
> your own conviction and gusto.
(laughing) well Amazon consumers esteemed opinion aside, check the worldwide
sales figures for Get Ready, chippie... it was an unmitigated bomb... I
recall one snippet saying that initial US sales were so poor that the
release of the follow up record was not assured, at least on Reprise
>Which is obviously to be applauded,
> even if you're sometimes a little misplaced. You didn't like it,
> therefore it bombed.
Hey crispie, most of the records I LIKE bomb! I dont take any pleasure in
the failure of this record... it would be a nice victory lap for the band as
the tour was, but no one was biting, at least not in the US
>Why exactly did this bomb?
Because it was an awful record?
>We've already
> proved that there's little critical review you can quote which saw this
> slated,
Are you so casual of a fan that you truly didnt read all of the published
reviews when the record came out? Did you not read the review that Jon
Savage (or was it Morley?) wrote in which he went to great pains not to say
it was a bomb because of his friendship with the band, but he clearly was
seriously let down by it... there were so many bad reviews and this record
was of so little importance to me that I cant quote all of them, but every
serious journalist that wrote about the record pointed out its weakness or
at the very most talked about the history of the band so they didnt have to
talk about how bad the record was...
I would dig through my magazines, but if you missed them the first time
around you would find a way of discounting them this time around...
>so perhaps we could quote sales figures ... if anyone knows
> them, which I doubt, though surely someone could conjure some
> up for us?
See above and check the used bin of any record shop... one shop in SF had
five used copies (not promos) in the first week of release, which was a new
record for a respected band... the prior winner of most unhappy listeners
was U2, but NO beat them by a nice margin... the last time I was in that
shop they had over 20 copies of Get Ready....
Probably all review copies from all those Amazon.com "critics" ;)
Ajw
water cooler dictator
inspection, it appears they gave it an eight. the same as they gave
republic. i'm all up for arguing the influence of the nme btw. i believe the
vines are quite big in the us these days....
-wcd-
--
-----------------------
"Being famous is just like not being famous, except more people look at me,
I have to wash my hair more often, and I can't buy pornography." - Brett
Anderson
"Allen Jarvis" <amja...@netcomuk.co.uk> wrote in message
news:b6m9k3$cc3$1...@taliesin2.netcom.net.uk...
Allen Jarvis
> the nme quite liked get ready if my memory serves me correctly. upon
> inspection, it appears they gave it an eight. the same as they gave
> republic. i'm all up for arguing the influence of the nme btw. i believe
the
> vines are quite big in the us these days....
>
> -wcd-
>
I believe they gave Republic a 7, but the review doesn't appear to be
on-line anymore. However, they did re-review everything a year or so back,
from Movement to GR they gave them all grades and I'm sure they listed
different grades to the original review. Can't find that article either but
it must still be on-line somewhere.. .
Allen Jarvis
> well and reflected the times in which it was made in and under the
> circumstances it was recorded in...
Yet you similarly slated someone recently for saying they'd liked Get Ready,
but then said Turn My Way was New Order's lowest moment?
So, the production was bad on Liar, and that's it? ;-)
Don't tell me you didn't cringe during that 'rap' in Time Change?
> I recall a number of gigs where they played little known songs from PCL
> during that period, from Low Life during that period etc etc... their set
> list changed almost every night, which was why you could go and see them
two
> or three nights in a row and never see the same show twice... I'm not
going
> to give you a list, but its all in the gigographies...
Halcyon days. Surely this is when most fans (I know you hate that word) were
happiest? Ever-changing sets, lots of variety, songs you'd not heard before.
A wave of anticipation for each and every track? They might've been playing
what THEY wanted to play but it's what WE wanted to hear too? Nowadays
it's simply what THEY want to play and, er, that's it. Again, two fingers up
to
the fans. Again, Roll & Roll, surely, in a perverse way?
> Actually they hit on their greates hit setlist in the early 90s and have
> stuck with that with minor variations...
Actually, they first hit on it with the 6-8-10 gigs at the end of 87
although
you could see how they were structuring the sets way before that - two
slow songs in the middle, etc. And the 2nd leg of the US tour in 89
relied heavily on (a) hits and (b) Technique, which is obviously what
the audience wanted. How else are bands supposed to 'break'
America without playing 'the game'.
> Are you serious? have you been to a recent gig where people didnt love
> being spoonfed their nostalgia? they LOVE it! I saw the lighers come out
> during LWTUA
Yes, I'm serious. The likes of BLT and True Faith over and over are
draining for the hardcore. Give me an Age of Consent anytime, but then,
I guess, that's also down to nostalgia too?
As for lighters, I'm sorry to inform you AJ but that's an Americanism.
I have never personally witnessed a lighter for any New Order song
anywhere, ever. And I was at the same Shoreline gig as you two years
ago. However, I've heard enough tales of English fans coming back
from American tours with the lighters out, so I know it's true. AIIWIW
was apparently a huge 'lighter track' back in 93. Dear, oh dear. You
wouldn't find that happening over here, but then audiences are quite
different between the US and here. I like the way Americans line up
quite neatly in their rows of seats and just jig where they stand. Quaint.
New Order haven't played a seated venue over here since the NEC
in 89 and Wembley in 87 and you don't have to go too far on the net
to discover just how ill-tempered those gigs were for the fans.
> No I read that as laziness and having sequencers and session players who
> need cueing
Agreed, for once. But I think you mean session player, singular. Phil
Cunningham. The Pumpkin lad doesn't really count, now does he?
> Mm thats not a fan... thats a loser who spends too much time in front of
the
> screen... I think being a fan is less heinous actually...
Let me read this right. You're now admitting to being a fan, or a loser?
> does it? the main thing is that you think I'm a loser who posts far too
> much and you are probably right... but if you look you will see that you
> have posted a lot of posts complaining about how many posts I post... ;)
>From memory, I don't think I've ever referred to you as a loser?
However, I will reply to posts I patently disagree with. Your angle always
seems to be that you've been into this band longer than most, blah blah
blah, as if you're trying to claim ownership or something. You do state
things rather flatly, as if your opinion is sacrosanct. Some people might
succumb to your sheer force of will, but I won't.
> (laughing) well Amazon consumers esteemed opinion aside, check the
worldwide
> sales figures for Get Ready, chippie... it was an unmitigated bomb... I
> recall one snippet saying that initial US sales were so poor that the
> release of the follow up record was not assured, at least on Reprise
Point me in the direction of sales figures, and I'll read them. I confess, I
don't know how well this sold. But I would guess that Get Ready sold
many more copies on its initial release than, say, Movement, PC&L or
Low-Life, two of which are infinitely better albums.
Not sure the Reprise comment is a benchmark. Remind me just how
well New Order have done in America previously. Over here they've
gone top 5 with single releases such as Blue Monday, True Faith,
Regret and Crystal (not forgetting WIM at no.1). Even the likes of
Confusion made the top 10 and each of their first three singles all
went top 40. Try as you might, you couldn't have avoided New
Order over here if you ever listened to commercial radio or
waited for the national chart rundown of a Sunday. Now, remind
me just how well New Order did in America? They didn't, did
they? They've had to flog their guts out doing 'alternative'
mega-tours with the likes of PiL, EATB, Sugarcubes, etc, just
to get a sniff in the US.
>Why exactly did this bomb?
> Because it was an awful record?
Rhetorical question, AJ. I wasn't asking why this bombed, I was
asking why YOU thought this bombed? Okay, so you don't like
it. But you're trying to imply that this was a worldwide failure,
just because you're very much indifferent. Why not just stand
by your own convictions and try and draw everyone else into
this. Blimey, I wish I'd started slating Republic on the net from
Day One. I could've had ten whole years of this by now!
> Are you so casual of a fan that you truly didnt read all of the published
> reviews when the record came out? Did you not read the review that Jon
> Savage (or was it Morley?) wrote in which he went to great pains not to
say
> it was a bomb because of his friendship with the band, but he clearly was
> seriously let down by it... there were so many bad reviews and this record
> was of so little importance to me that I cant quote all of them, but every
> serious journalist that wrote about the record pointed out its weakness or
> at the very most talked about the history of the band so they didnt have
to
> talk about how bad the record was...
Morley, or Savage, may have said this. I can't remember it. I do have a
shocking stack of memorablila, and cuttings (clippings I believe you'd
call them), are my forte, so I'm sure I must have it somewhere. So that's
it then? The band should pack it all in and call it a day because of one
critic? Big white lie time though: "Every Serious Journalist" pointed out
the record's weaknesses? Where do you quote this figures. EVERY
one of them? On a similar theme, the NME reviewed Perfect Kiss a
whole 18 years back, and basically, from what I remember (I'm at work
para-phrasing now) said they didn't understand said track but
did listen to Thieves Like Us every day, so hoped the Perfect Kiss
would prove similar in time. God, to think, it was all going downhill
from there and we never listened? Then again, TPK was the first New
Order single not to make the top 40 over here so the signs were
already written, I guess?
> I would dig through my magazines, but if you missed them the first time
> around you would find a way of discounting them this time around...
Dig AJ, dig. Back up your claims and leave me spellbound.
> See above and check the used bin of any record shop... one shop in SF had
> five used copies (not promos) in the first week of release, which was a
new
> record for a respected band...
Fantastic. San Fransisco, the centre of New Order's World! Actually, that's
great, it's nice to see punk's finally hit SF 25 years too late - 5 people
buying the record, then burning it at home and getting their cash back.
Good move. Or did they merely think New order was that pretty German
girl on the covered and were perturbed to hear Bernard's vocal? Bit
like the Rolling Stone berk who thought the roadies were the band?
Either way, AJ, I live in London, England, so a lone record shop in
SF don't cut a lot of ice with me. It's not really a cultural yard-stick,
now is it? Your local record shop? No offence, obviously, but New
Order played a gig to 20-odd K 'fawning fan's a mile south of my
home last summer, so you can imagine the thoughts of a record shop
on the other side of a world don't mean too much to me by
comparison. Apologies.
> Probably all review copies from all those Amazon.com "critics" ;)
You know you respect their every word. You love it.
pt
and is read by even bigger pricks
stay away
"Allen Jarvis" <amja...@netcomuk.co.uk> wrote in message
news:b733g7$md9$1...@taliesin2.netcom.net.uk...
AJ Wells
> > It was an embarassing moment for me, but overall the record held
together
> > well and reflected the times in which it was made in and under the
> > circumstances it was recorded in...
>
> Yet you similarly slated someone recently for saying they'd liked Get
Ready,
> but then said Turn My Way was New Order's lowest moment?
>
> So, the production was bad on Liar, and that's it? ;-)
Boy this is getting like a math equation isnt it? Liar was a poor song, to
be sure, but the record has so many well written ones as well as arguably
the bands best song, so its a slightly different equation... and I have
never argued that Republic was the bands best record... but it is
mathematically possible to have a good record with one bad song... chalk
that one up!
> Don't tell me you didn't cringe during that 'rap' in Time Change?
Actually I didnt because NO has always been about doing lame white-boy
interpretations of black music... did you miss that nuance as well as those
Get Ready reviews?
>
>
> > I recall a number of gigs where they played little known songs from PCL
> > during that period, from Low Life during that period etc etc... their
set
> > list changed almost every night, which was why you could go and see them
> two
> > or three nights in a row and never see the same show twice... I'm not
> going
> > to give you a list, but its all in the gigographies...
>
> Halcyon days. Surely this is when most fans (I know you hate that word)
were
> happiest? Ever-changing sets, lots of variety, songs you'd not heard
before.
> A wave of anticipation for each and every track? They might've been
playing
> what THEY wanted to play but it's what WE wanted to hear too? Nowadays
> it's simply what THEY want to play and, er, that's it. Again, two fingers
up
> to
> the fans. Again, Roll & Roll, surely, in a perverse way?
Sort of like them recording Get Ready because THEY thought it was good... I
suppose its TRULY perverse to record something that sounds commercial, bland
and pandering... but doing because you truly WANT to... ah yes its a triumph
of the punk spirit!
>
> > Actually they hit on their greates hit setlist in the early 90s and have
> > stuck with that with minor variations...
>
> Actually, they first hit on it with the 6-8-10 gigs at the end of 87
> although
> you could see how they were structuring the sets way before that - two
> slow songs in the middle, etc. And the 2nd leg of the US tour in 89
> relied heavily on (a) hits and (b) Technique, which is obviously what
> the audience wanted. How else are bands supposed to 'break'
> America without playing 'the game'.
>
> > Are you serious? have you been to a recent gig where people didnt love
> > being spoonfed their nostalgia? they LOVE it! I saw the lighers come
out
> > during LWTUA
>
> Yes, I'm serious. The likes of BLT and True Faith over and over are
> draining for the hardcore. Give me an Age of Consent anytime, but then,
> I guess, that's also down to nostalgia too?
Ah yes more of that "punk perversity" masquerading as middle aged spread and
artistic laziness... genius, that...
>
> As for lighters, I'm sorry to inform you AJ but that's an Americanism.
> I have never personally witnessed a lighter for any New Order song
> anywhere, ever. And I was at the same Shoreline gig as you two years
> ago. However, I've heard enough tales of English fans coming back
> from American tours with the lighters out, so I know it's true. AIIWIW
> was apparently a huge 'lighter track' back in 93. Dear, oh dear. You
> wouldn't find that happening over here, but then audiences are quite
> different between the US and here. I like the way Americans line up
> quite neatly in their rows of seats and just jig where they stand. Quaint.
> New Order haven't played a seated venue over here since the NEC
> in 89 and Wembley in 87 and you don't have to go too far on the net
> to discover just how ill-tempered those gigs were for the fans.
>
> > No I read that as laziness and having sequencers and session players who
> > need cueing
>
> Agreed, for once. But I think you mean session player, singular. Phil
> Cunningham. The Pumpkin lad doesn't really count, now does he?
>
> > Mm thats not a fan... thats a loser who spends too much time in front of
> the
> > screen... I think being a fan is less heinous actually...
>
> Let me read this right. You're now admitting to being a fan, or a loser?
(laughing) I admit to being a little of everything, and usually at the same
time! You cant insult me, chippy... I will beat you to the punch every time
>
> > does it? the main thing is that you think I'm a loser who posts far too
> > much and you are probably right... but if you look you will see that you
> > have posted a lot of posts complaining about how many posts I post... ;)
>
> >From memory, I don't think I've ever referred to you as a loser?
No thats just me beating you to the punch again...
>
> However, I will reply to posts I patently disagree with. Your angle always
> seems to be that you've been into this band longer than most, blah blah
> blah, as if you're trying to claim ownership or something. You do state
> things rather flatly, as if your opinion is sacrosanct. Some people might
> succumb to your sheer force of will, but I won't.
Again, my opinion is just my own, but I cant tame it down... I see things in
particular ways, but those ways are subject to change and contradiction...
it doesnt matter how long I've been into the band; I know some 18 year olds
who discover this music and who get the idea behind its spirit... and some
who have followed the band from the start and yet cant seem to grasp a lot
of the recent shortcomings ;)
>
>
> > (laughing) well Amazon consumers esteemed opinion aside, check the
> worldwide
> > sales figures for Get Ready, chippie... it was an unmitigated bomb... I
> > recall one snippet saying that initial US sales were so poor that the
> > release of the follow up record was not assured, at least on Reprise
>
> Point me in the direction of sales figures, and I'll read them. I confess,
I
> don't know how well this sold. But I would guess that Get Ready sold
> many more copies on its initial release than, say, Movement, PC&L or
> Low-Life, two of which are infinitely better albums.
Actually I dont know where you would dig up precise sales figures, but I do
recall reading some industry snippets about how poorly sales did,
particularly in the US, but also worldwide... and since NO is now making
mainstream pop/rock records and filling stadiums, they set the terms on
which the record is to be judged... the prior records were just records...
they were usually moderately to substantially ahead of their time, so of
course initial sales would be slim... thats the nature of that beast... but
they WANT to make pop records to fulfill that "perverse punk" spirit you
talk about, but you cant make pop records if no one buys them... or you cant
continue to make them
>
> Not sure the Reprise comment is a benchmark. Remind me just how
> well New Order have done in America previously. Over here they've
> gone top 5 with single releases such as Blue Monday, True Faith,
> Regret and Crystal (not forgetting WIM at no.1). Even the likes of
> Confusion made the top 10 and each of their first three singles all
> went top 40. Try as you might, you couldn't have avoided New
> Order over here if you ever listened to commercial radio or
> waited for the national chart rundown of a Sunday. Now, remind
> me just how well New Order did in America? They didn't, did
> they? They've had to flog their guts out doing 'alternative'
> mega-tours with the likes of PiL, EATB, Sugarcubes, etc, just
> to get a sniff in the US.
Well that was because of the Qwest association of course... before that they
played at colleges and offbeat and interesting venues... their first show in
SF was in a strip club
>
> >Why exactly did this bomb?
> > Because it was an awful record?
>
> Rhetorical question, AJ. I wasn't asking why this bombed, I was
> asking why YOU thought this bombed? Okay, so you don't like
> it. But you're trying to imply that this was a worldwide failure,
> just because you're very much indifferent. Why not just stand
> by your own convictions and try and draw everyone else into
> this. Blimey, I wish I'd started slating Republic on the net from
> Day One. I could've had ten whole years of this by now!
As I mention above, this record failed because it tried to be a pop record
and it was not a well made pop record...
>
> > Are you so casual of a fan that you truly didnt read all of the
published
> > reviews when the record came out? Did you not read the review that Jon
> > Savage (or was it Morley?) wrote in which he went to great pains not to
> say
> > it was a bomb because of his friendship with the band, but he clearly
was
> > seriously let down by it... there were so many bad reviews and this
record
> > was of so little importance to me that I cant quote all of them, but
every
> > serious journalist that wrote about the record pointed out its weakness
or
> > at the very most talked about the history of the band so they didnt have
> to
> > talk about how bad the record was...
>
> Morley, or Savage, may have said this. I can't remember it. I do have a
> shocking stack of memorablila, and cuttings (clippings I believe you'd
> call them), are my forte, so I'm sure I must have it somewhere. So that's
> it then? The band should pack it all in and call it a day because of one
> critic?
I dont think the band should do ANYTHING because of anyones opinion... I am
simply trying to sort out the reviewers with some context from those who
have only recently discovered the band and judge Get Ready in the context of
a culture that reveres Coldplay...
> Big white lie time though: "Every Serious Journalist" pointed out
> the record's weaknesses? Where do you quote this figures. EVERY
> one of them?
As with everything I do, that statement was of course a broad stroke...
thats what I DO, silly... if you had been reading and educating yourself
over the years on my incisive, entertaining and insightful wit you would
realize that dramatic license is a given with me... of course not EVERY
serious journalist hated the record... I'm not going to sift through ever
single thing that was ever written or published about this record because
the work frankly doesnt warrant it... after awhile you will get what I mean
and mean what I get ;)
>On a similar theme, the NME reviewed Perfect Kiss a
> whole 18 years back, and basically, from what I remember (I'm at work
> para-phrasing now) said they didn't understand said track but
> did listen to Thieves Like Us every day, so hoped the Perfect Kiss
> would prove similar in time. God, to think, it was all going downhill
> from there and we never listened? Then again, TPK was the first New
> Order single not to make the top 40 over here so the signs were
> already written, I guess?
Again, context is key... back in those days, the NME would blow scaldingly
hot and then super cool on bands just for the fun of it... they loved
building them up and tearing them down... critical opinion meant something
then, but not always literally...
>
> > I would dig through my magazines, but if you missed them the first time
> > around you would find a way of discounting them this time around...
>
> Dig AJ, dig. Back up your claims and leave me spellbound.
I dont have to back up anything, kiddo! All I am doing is typing! I aint
sitting down going through boxes of magazines and old computer files just to
prove a point to someone who wouldnt acknowledge that point because it runs
contrary to what they FEEL... I have better things to do... like typing
posts!
>
> > See above and check the used bin of any record shop... one shop in SF
had
> > five used copies (not promos) in the first week of release, which was a
> new
> > record for a respected band...
>
> Fantastic. San Fransisco, the centre of New Order's World!
Hey I dont give a toss about New Orders world... its the centre of MY world!
We arent talking about music or art here, we are talking about OUR
IMPRESSIONS OF IT
>Actually, that's
> great, it's nice to see punk's finally hit SF 25 years too late - 5 people
> buying the record, then burning it at home and getting their cash back.
(laughing) not to blow your preconception of SF, crispie, but there are more
than a few people who were on board this train from the start... if you
recall, the US office and main shop of Rough Trade was here for many years
and saw many a discriminating listener enjoy many a wonderful NO release...
> Good move. Or did they merely think New order was that pretty German
> girl on the covered and were perturbed to hear Bernard's vocal? Bit
> like the Rolling Stone berk who thought the roadies were the band?
Your ignorance aside, as noted above, the band WANTS those sorts of fans,
because they think its too easy to make a "left field" record.... they set
the terms for their own failure by saying that the hardest thing to write
was a pop song and the hardest thing to make is a pop record...
it clearly is for them...
> Either way, AJ, I live in London, England, so a lone record shop in
> SF don't cut a lot of ice with me. It's not really a cultural yard-stick,
> now is it? Your local record shop? No offence, obviously, but New
> Order played a gig to 20-odd K 'fawning fan's a mile south of my
> home last summer, so you can imagine the thoughts of a record shop
> on the other side of a world don't mean too much to me by
> comparison. Apologies.
(laughing) they play to huge crowds looking for a nostalgic experience here
too... doesnt change the fact that very few people enjoy or purchased their
new material... I think the Stones draw huge crowds of corporate types while
their recent records bomb in the shops too... you are not exactly refuting
any of my points there chappie
> > Probably all review copies from all those Amazon.com "critics" ;)
>
> You know you respect their every word. You love it.
Yes I know that when I want to know which record to buy I dont need to check
out what The Wire has to say... what I really want to know is what the
nitwit who picks up Get Ready along with a couple of video games and a few
comic books thinks!
Ajw
DC
Get Ready. Comparing it with Republic only makes it all the more apparent.
Much of I'm talking about is not even abstract, but glaringly obvious:
Get Ready has terrible songs that are poorly constructed and produced;
Republic has very good songs that are well constructed and produced.
Where is the evidence to back up these statements? Here:
Absolutely terrible words to nearly ALL the songs on Get Ready; Republic has
some of New Order's best melancholic and brutal lyrics. You don't need to
be a poet to notice this contrast...
The production on Get Ready is lousy because (A) the songs are so poorly
constructed, sounding like each part has been bolted next to the other with
little thought to how they effect the congruity of the song. (B) The drums
are damn right feeble while the bass is often too loud and domineering.
Again, Republic wins out with a smooth transience to the album. It smoothly
takes the listener through an array of rich foreboding and intelligently
arranged songs, without any sense of a need to please, or rock out if
desperation, in order to cover up the botched nature of the music. The only
(or observation) I understand is the lack of Hooky's bass throughout the
album, but even that has a strong counter-argument: you don't need to hear
the bass domineering every album...
I hope this helps,
DC
DC
water cooler dictator
-wcd-
--
-----------------------
"Being famous is just like not being famous, except more people look at me,
I have to wash my hair more often, and I can't buy pornography." - Brett
Anderson
"pt" <petert...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:i2ala.17478$8u3.12...@news-text.cableinet.net...
pt
the nme - pricks unlike any other
if you wanna read that dogshit thats up to you
"water cooler dictator" <star...@optushome.com.au> wrote in message
news:3e961f4e$0$1029$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
M Shah
Very well put, my good sir...
water cooler dictator
pricks" and seeing as i've read it for years now - that's unequivocally me.
they do print a lot of tripe. however, bands i love and adore like suede and
the manics would have had enormous amounts of trouble getting themselves
established if it weren't for nme (and other similar publications, the
maker, select and whatnot) hype at one time for another. and for that i
remain eternally grateful.
cheers.
nb: they're recent "saviours of rock", however, bore me senseless.
"pt" <petert...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:zfwla.18614$o96.13...@news-text.cableinet.net...
Allen Jarvis
round.
Let's just agree to disagree before we bore the entire world with our
thoughts. Anyways, it's supposed to be a day of rest today and I
don't feel the need to type another essay. As I've said before, you say
pot-aye-toe, I say pot-ah-toe. Well, actually I say the former, but
you get my drift.
'Chippie/Chippy' though, really? What sort of terminology is that? Do you
really have conversations in every day life where you address people as
such? How very quaint.
Regards, as ever.
Allen Jarvis
Don't generalise PT. I believe James Brown cut his teeth on the NME and
he's proved himself to be an all round 'sound geezer' where New Order are
concerned.
I don't think the NME was ever particularly pro New Order anyways. They
were always a little too 'laddy' and 'boisterous' for the NME's gawky
image. There was always a bigger fad to follow - the Smiths, Sugarcubes, or
the whole C86 nonsense. I think they saw New Order as a Thinking Man's U2
and hoped they'd go away. Even when they bigged up, then consequently
gunned down, the Mondays you always felt they were the last ones to be
invited to the party and were trying to bolster their image by attaching
themselves to something supposedly 'street' and 'cool'.
Allen Jarvis
> Get Ready has terrible songs that are poorly constructed and produced;
> Republic has very good songs that are well constructed and produced.
>
Terrible songs? What, like, Crystal and Primitive Notion?
Very good songs? Er, like Avalanche, Liar, Times Change, Spooky and Young
Offender.
Hmmm. Each to their own.
pt
wonder they will go out of business in the next few years, they have no
desire for music, just for selling their crap
good riddance
"Allen Jarvis" <amja...@netcomuk.co.uk> wrote in message
news:b7bjiu$bu3$1...@taliesin2.netcom.net.uk...
Simon Stuart
> sorry its true - look at their reviews. they are total pricks, and its no
> wonder they will go out of business in the next few years, they have no
> desire for music, just for selling their crap
> good riddance
Good clairvoyance ... can you tell me who'll win the 4.30 at Chepstow on
Tuesday, then?
Seriously: the NME does what it does very well. I all but stopped reading it
in 1993, when I went to university; before that, I lived for it dropping
through my letterbox. Over the years it has spawned some wonderful writers;
it might be transient, genre-hopping, opportunistic pap at times, but then
isn't that what popular music is about? It's been responsible for
introducing legions of wan young things to myriad sonic joys ... and in many
cases has probably provided something of a political awakening too. More
power to it.
S
DC
Yes, very true, Allen; it is all *opinion*, no matter how strongly one
believes he is right - although of course I am always right, when we get
down to it!
For me, Crystal is a bad song. It has one of the worst lyrical choruses
that I have heard in a long, long, time: "here comes love, its like honey,
you can buy it with money..." Sumner is capable of writing tremendous
lyrics, as he demonstrated on Republic and else where, so therefore, I
consider him agonisingly lazy, as he is prepared to settle for such dribble.
If an eleven year old child wrote those words, I would say well done, but I
expect somebody of Sumner's capability to push himself to the high standard,
which we all know he is capable of achieving. Crystal is also poorly
adjoined: the intro into the Chorus,as it doesn't quite work, and this is
emphasised further in second, and third chorus on the single.
I do like Primitive Notion - and I'll chuck one in for free - I think Run
Wild is a good song how ever much it makes me
grimace...
On to Republic. Spooky is a track with a terrible title that immediately
convinces the listener to treat it like fluff. This is not to say it is of
course, as in fact it has a lot of positives: it has an extraordinary energy
in the music, and that is reflected in the rebellious lyrics; Hooky puts in
one of his sexiest bass riffs that provides a super link into the chorus.
Young Offender has another expeditious energy. If you have an interest in
synthesizer and sample sounds, then this track is probably a great example
of New Order's great ability to program some of the most unusually inspiring
noises.
As for Liar, well this is New Order being humorous and bitter. It has some
great lines: "you are the King of nothing... Were you abandoned in your
youth? Because if not, you will be soon..." I love those acrid attacks on
poor old Wilson, however uncalled for they might be...
I am shocked you, or anybody else, could consider Times Change a bad song.
New Order have my deepest respect for producing such a track as excellent as
Times Change. Sumner raps, yet he is subtle enough not to attempt to
conspicuously impersonate professional rappers, like he did on some
Electronic tracks. The lyrics are extremely fine with a belting potency; a
characteristic of Republic, in general, but superbly created on this song.
The music on Times Change is so carefully, as well as immaculately, crafted:
the synthesizers are again sensational and acutely used to maximum effect;
Hooky's plays one of his most skilful bass riffs; the adjoining linkages are
pure class. I certainly believe Times Change is one of the New Order's
finest moments.
Avalanche is a very atmospheric and a suitably mournful ending to an
excellent album. Morris' drum playing is particularly notable on this
track.
I may not have convinced you, Allen, but I hope you can at least appreciate
my viewpoint,
DC
AJ Wells
Very well put... its a grinding, leaden, poorly constructed attempt at a pop
song
>
> I do like Primitive Notion - and I'll chuck one in for free - I think Run
> Wild is a good song how ever much it makes me
> grimace...
Mmm... those two are tough for me to defend... isnt Run Wild the one with
the melodica? previous to that song I thought I had never heard a song with
a melodica in it that I did not like... but there is a first for everything!
>
> On to Republic. Spooky is a track with a terrible title that immediately
> convinces the listener to treat it like fluff. This is not to say it is
of
> course, as in fact it has a lot of positives: it has an extraordinary
energy
> in the music, and that is reflected in the rebellious lyrics; Hooky puts
in
> one of his sexiest bass riffs that provides a super link into the chorus.
another nicely put insight...
>
> Young Offender has another expeditious energy. If you have an interest in
> synthesizer and sample sounds, then this track is probably a great example
> of New Order's great ability to program some of the most unusually
inspiring
> noises.
chalk another one up for the poster...
>
> As for Liar, well this is New Order being humorous and bitter. It has
some
> great lines: "you are the King of nothing... Were you abandoned in your
> youth? Because if not, you will be soon..." I love those acrid attacks on
> poor old Wilson, however uncalled for they might be...
I did love the lyrics when I read them prior to the record coming out... and
it is sort of tongue in cheek... but the cheesy spinners style just doesnt
work for these ears...
>
> I am shocked you, or anybody else, could consider Times Change a bad song.
> New Order have my deepest respect for producing such a track as excellent
as
> Times Change. Sumner raps, yet he is subtle enough not to attempt to
> conspicuously impersonate professional rappers, like he did on some
> Electronic tracks. The lyrics are extremely fine with a belting potency; a
> characteristic of Republic, in general, but superbly created on this song.
> The music on Times Change is so carefully, as well as immaculately,
crafted:
> the synthesizers are again sensational and acutely used to maximum effect;
> Hooky's plays one of his most skilful bass riffs; the adjoining linkages
are
> pure class. I certainly believe Times Change is one of the New Order's
> finest moments.
Very well put... when Hooks bassline comes falling from the sky just after
the last little rap line, its one of those hairs on the back of your neck
moments that continues to amaze and delight
>
> Avalanche is a very atmospheric and a suitably mournful ending to an
> excellent album. Morris' drum playing is particularly notable on this
> track.
Yes its a perfect outro to the record and another track that conjures up
that wonderful atmosphere of the From The Hip record...
>
> I may not have convinced you, Allen, but I hope you can at least
appreciate
> my viewpoint,
>
> DC
Well said and nicely put...
Ajw
DC
> Well said and nicely put...
>
> Ajw
I'm flattered, AJ; I only usually get that sort of praise from my mirror...
I can return the compliment, as I can genuinely say I have noted many of
your intelligent and witty comments around here; it always helps if we have
a general consensus, of course ;-)
DC
Simon Stuart
> On to Republic [snip]
Heh! No prizes for guessing what I'm going to be listening to today. A most
evocative post. Cheers!
I might do Get Ready straight afterwards ... as a wee sociological
experiment ...
S
Allen Jarvis
Oh, but of course ;-)
> For me, Crystal is a bad song. It has one of the worst lyrical choruses
> that I have heard in a long, long, time: "here comes love, its like honey,
> you can buy it with money..."
Consider Republic's singles -
I would like a place I could call my own, have a conversation on the
telephone
That's the price of love (that's the price of love), can you feel it (can
you feel it), oo-oo!
You could be the lover of jade, forever on your own in the shade
Elevate what's on your mind, eliminate what's on your mind
Hardly 'that' incisive now are they, when written down? As much as I love
Regret I winced when I heard the 'telephone' line for the first time. What
was
Sumner trying to do - appeal to the geekier bedsit fans? Nonsense when
spoken by a pop 'star' approaching 40 at that time.
> Crystal is also poorly
> adjoined: the intro into the Chorus,as it doesn't quite work, and this is
> emphasised further in second, and third chorus on the single.
When have New Order been ones for structure and repetetive choruses?
Crystal isn't formulaic in the way that, say, World In Motion was. But then,
look at the likes of Blue Monday and Temptation. You hardly need a
Big Chorus to justify a song. Personally, I think Crystal is head and
shoulders above everything on Get Ready, much in the same way
as Regret rules the roost on Republic.
> On to Republic. Spooky is a track with a terrible title that immediately
> convinces the listener to treat it like fluff. This is not to say it is
of
> course, as in fact it has a lot of positives: it has an extraordinary
energy
> in the music, and that is reflected in the rebellious lyrics; Hooky puts
in
> one of his sexiest bass riffs that provides a super link into the chorus.
Not convinced. Sounds like they knocked it up in 10mins and that 'Bass
Mechanic' inclusion (someone here must know which software that comes
from, I've forgotten) implies they know nothing about the technology
they're using on this one. It's like a 14 year old's picked up some
new software and attempted to include everything he possibly can, no
matter how trite it sounds. I can't believe they put this thing together
ten whole years after they knocked out Blue Monday or 586. The
remixes just prolonged the agony.
> Young Offender has another expeditious energy. If you have an interest in
> synthesizer and sample sounds, then this track is probably a great example
> of New Order's great ability to program some of the most unusually
inspiring
> noises.
Sorry, but to these ears it sounds like they had two ideas running through
the track and couldn't decide on which one should lead, so just merged
both into a jumble with neither half of this mess staking a claim. A truly
dreadful title for a track too, not that this should be a benchmark
considering past exploits, but defo a bad title. Wasn't this also due
for an American single release, but got canned?
> As for Liar, well this is New Order being humorous and bitter. It has
some
> great lines: "you are the King of nothing... Were you abandoned in your
> youth? Because if not, you will be soon..." I love those acrid attacks on
> poor old Wilson, however uncalled for they might be...
An urban myth, surely, that it's about Wilson. This has never been
confirmed, people just 'hope' it's so to try and lend some respectability
to this track. Oh, and that cheesy hammond-type organ? Even the
Inspiral Carpets had gone by the wayside because people realised
it didn't quite work in the long run. Inspired witticisms at someone else's
(Wilson's we all guess) expense don't save this one, for me. Yes, some
lines are witty, but no, this is not a good song. If acerbic lines maketh
the
song then we'd all be listening to Half Man / Half Biscuit instead (who
ain't bad as it goes, but, well, you get my drift).
> I am shocked you, or anybody else, could consider Times Change a bad song.
> New Order have my deepest respect for producing such a track as excellent
as
> Times Change. Sumner raps, yet he is subtle enough not to attempt to
> conspicuously impersonate professional rappers, like he did on some
> Electronic tracks. The lyrics are extremely fine with a belting potency;
It takes more than 20 secs of melodic Hook to save this one. It sounds
flat to me in the main, just listless. Sorry, but Barney's rapping is
laughable.
Why a man fast approaching 40 suddenly thought he could 'rap' isn't
necessarily something to be applauded. And it's not really a 'rap' is it,
it's more 'talking flatly' really. I'm sorry, but I think this one's the
second
biggest stinker after Liar.
> Avalanche is a very atmospheric and a suitably mournful ending to an
> excellent album. Morris' drum playing is particularly notable on this
> track.
It is indeed atmosphere and mournful and the drums are top notch. But
I simply don't like it. Gillian uttering 'faith' sounds like they're trying
to
make a statement somewhere, but fail. Cue conspiracy theorists
trying to find a meaning in there, which simply doesn't exist.. I just think
they've done so many better instrumentals in the past - the likes of
Don't Do It, Murder and Elegia, which might not be everyone's cup
of tea, but definitely 'work' to these ears.
> I may not have convinced you, Allen, but I hope you can at least
appreciate
> my viewpoint,
Of course I appreciate the viewpoint - nothing can be right, or wrong
when it just boils down to taste. We can analyse till we're blue in the
face. But I'm not convinced music, or most art, requires that level of
over-analysis. You're not gonna to shift someone's opinion by trying
to explain something in a new light. Unless, of course, they were perhaps
ignorant of the background to a piece of work in the first instance. I'm
overtly aware of New Order's history, of the backdrop this was recorded
under, so I'm relatively conversant in all the facts. I just didn't
particularly
take to this album in 93 and it still fails to do anything for me today.
Like I said, each to their own.
Interesting to note though: none of the five I've mentioned have ever
seen the light of day, live. Personally, I don't think many of them would
work in that arena.
regards, always.
AJ Wells
> > although of course I am always right, when we get down to it!
>
> Oh, but of course ;-)
>
> > For me, Crystal is a bad song. It has one of the worst lyrical choruses
> > that I have heard in a long, long, time: "here comes love, its like
honey,
> > you can buy it with money..."
>
> Consider Republic's singles -
> I would like a place I could call my own, have a conversation on the
> telephone
> That's the price of love (that's the price of love), can you feel it (can
> you feel it), oo-oo!
> You could be the lover of jade, forever on your own in the shade
> Elevate what's on your mind, eliminate what's on your mind
>
> Hardly 'that' incisive now are they, when written down? As much as I love
> Regret I winced when I heard the 'telephone' line for the first time. What
> was
> Sumner trying to do - appeal to the geekier bedsit fans? Nonsense when
> spoken by a pop 'star' approaching 40 at that time.
Boy is it that difficult to see that he was making a point about doing basic
activities that most humans take for granted? that is the essence of the
pop star reality...
Dont you wonder how some people ever got the point behind this band?
See comment above...
Dont you wonder how some people ever got the gist behind this band? When
they cant understand the most basic of operations, how can they think
critically about the more complex aspects?
I reall want to know which records and tracks Mr Jarvis rates as among the
bands best... and why...
This should be good ;)
Ajw