Ghosts of Fruvous; obsessions
Spin0za1
little summer trip.
Last time I was in DC was last August. There were two Moxy Fruvous in-store
performances and a CTY reunion. The reunion was my excuse for the concerts. I
was still making excuses then.
Riding the metro, walking about DC, going to the bead store, my body and mind
kept anticipating a Fruvous concert. I was traveling. I was in DC. There must
be music coming, right? I knew there was no concert but I couldn't convince my
jumping heart of that fact. Where's my band, it kept asking. When do we get to
dance?
I'm glad I'm going away. I'm glad I have to do without them for six months. I'm
genuinely afraid of this. I'm afraid that I've become dependent. I'm admitting
it right now, I truly believe that I am obsessed with this band to an unhealthy
degree. Not because I'd stalk the band members or anything because I wouldn't.
This is entirely contained within my head and it can hurt no one but me... It's
because I shake and cry from missing them. Because the money I was supposed to
have to spend when I go to college has gone to pay for concerts. Because it's
been less than a week since I saw them last and all I can think of is Murray's
last hug and wishes for a safe and happy trip and Jian's semi blowing me off
because he was with a woman, Dave's kiss on my cheek when I told him how much
I'd miss him and Mike's firm handshake and amused expression when I address him
as "Mr, Ford." Because the only reason I go anywhere or have any friends is
because of them.
This has got to stop.
je touche le requin dans le tourbillon mechanique au l'aquarium immense
moment de frisson doux et ridicule
-Mike Ford (hehe)
Gella
fruvy
<Jian's semi blowing me off because he was with a woman...
Incidentally, when I met him at Clearwater this year, he
semi-did that to me too.
*hmph*
but just as they did with you, the others were warm as well :)
*Sally*
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Chad Maloney
fruvy wrote:
>
> Gella wrote:
>
> <Jian's semi blowing me off because he was with a woman...
>
> Incidentally, when I met him at Clearwater this year, he
> semi-did that to me too.
> *hmph*
Incidentally, what does Jian owe you both that he didn't give you
that you felt the appropriate response was to bring it to the
newsgroup? I'm just curious. You both seem frustrated enough to
publicize it. What were you expecting to get?
- Chad
A.J. LoCicero
>
> Gella wrote:
>
> <Jian's semi blowing me off because he was with a woman...
>
> Incidentally, when I met him at Clearwater this year, he
> semi-did that to me too.
Hey it could have been worse! He *might* have FULLY blown you off
because he was semi-with a woman. Wouldn't you have hated that more?
A.J.
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| |____| | (_| __/ | | (_) | ICQ: 13117113
\_____|_|\___\___|_| \___/ @wwnet.com AIM: locicero
Veronica J Gruneberg
put... :)
:) Veronica
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"On the sixth day, God created | Veronica Gruneberg
the platypus. And God said: let's | Dept. of Biology
see the evolutionists try to figure | Queen's University
this one out!!" | Kingston, Ontario
Jac...@aol.com
> Hey it could have been worse! He *might* have FULLY blown you off
because he was semi-with a woman. Wouldn't you have hated that more?<
or even fully blown you off because he was with a semi-woman.
But I don't think we want to perpetuate those rumors any more...
~jen ;-)
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Do you know that you are very strong?"-- Grover
"Measure your life in love."-- Rent
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
fruvy
Jian's a friend of mine. And like any friend, I was only hoping
for a warm goodbye and my posting was not out of frustration,
but just to show some minor sympathy. Nuff said?
*sally*
Sugar...@aol.com
can't really toss an opinion out here. (God knows I do it enough on
everything else!) But Gella, as far as missing them insanely and stuff..Could
you just be feeling emotional lately? When I've gone to see them (more my
second time seeing them than my first) I left feeling like Oh my God, that
was awesome. Oh my God, who knows when I'll see them again. And not really
being *depressed* about it exactly, but like kinda sad and like nothing could
really compare to that experience for awhile especially since I waited for it
for so long, and just like things that would normal make me excited didn't
for awhile, til the concert sadness wore off and it went back to being an
awesome experience. And that was just how I felt never having even met them,
and you have met them. Also when you see people a lot (like friends and
stuff) you tend to either A) Notice every little thing that changes, or B)
not notice at all unless it's a really drastic change. Maybe you're noticing
every little thing that changes, such as a possible change in the way Jian
acts to you? I'm not really explaining this very well. Okay..like take that
second concert I went to. December 3, 1999. It was one of the concerts that
the guys didn't cancel even though they were sick or starting to be sick. I
got home and stuff, and people were talking on the newsgroup about how they
weren't feeling too great and it showed. I, meanwhile, was like they were
sick? I didn't pick up on that during the concert at all, except that Dave
was a lot quieter than the concert I had gone to the previous year. And I
guess I didn't pick up on it because I hadn't seen them in awhile and had
nothing to compare it to. But you do see them often, and thereby have other
incidents to compare with the current encounters. Wow, I'm going way
psychological with this. I don't even know if it made sense. Nevermind. I'll
shut up now.
--------------> Ln
loren becker
> Jian's a friend of mine. And like any friend, I was only hoping for a
warm > goodbye and my posting was not out of frustration, but just to
show some minor > sympathy. Nuff said?
Like Chad, I ask this out of curiosity and don't mean it as a personal
affront to your relationship with Jian (especially since I have no clue
what that might be, hence the question). In fact, consider this inquiry
directed at the general public, not just at Sally, because I'm curious
about people's thoughts on this.
When you say Jian (or any other band member) is a friend of yours, what
does that mean? Do you hang out with him when he's not on the clock, so
to speak? Does he confide in you? (Insert similar questions here.) Where
is the line between fan and friend?
I ask this because a lot of people think of members of the band as their
friends. We, as fans, expect a lot from them. We also get a lot from
them. But in truth, they have no responsibility to any of us no matter
what we expect. The amount of attention the fans get is entirely up to
the band, not any obligation.
Enough from me. I'm exhausted and perhaps I'm just missing the point.
/l
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
o/~ I'm looking for one thing real tonight. o/~
-- Dan Bern
Daancing Queen
>When you say Jian (or any other band member) is a friend of yours, what
>does that mean? Do you hang out with him when he's not on the clock, so
>to speak? Does he confide in you? (Insert similar questions here.) Where
>is the line between fan and friend
Loren, you just said exactly what I spent ages trying to compose last night
- except I kept erasing because it sounded snarky. You put it wonderfully.
If Jian (or insert name here) is a friend, then likely he would call you,
email you, go for coffee when he's in town, etc. If that's the case, then
why do you need a hug after a show? And if he's simply someone from a band
who is kind enough to talk to his audience after a show, well, then he
really doesn't owe you anything. (Not trying to attack anyone or their
perceptions of their relationships, but simply stating "my opinion" (tm)).
As for "Jian blowing you off for a woman" - well, isn't the man allowed his
personal time? My own example: I live in Toronto, and as such, when the
band plays here, this is their hometown, and they have other places they
want to be after shows. They have friends and family here, and often when
they play here, they've been on the road for a while and want to see them.
And sometimes, they probably just want to go back to their own homes and
crash. I don't begrudge them that time. I don't feel slighted when I see
one of them run out the backdoor after a show. Yes, Jian usually sticks
around more often than any of the others - perhaps, that's why most people
feel they know him best. But just because he "usually" sticks around,
doesn't mean that he's obligated to.
As I said, that's my opinion (tm) - feel free to have your own.
Sara
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
Melanie
>> I'm not really explaining this very well. Okay..like take that
second concert I went to. December 3, 1999. It was one of the concerts that the guys didn't cancel even though they were sick or starting to be sick. I got home and stuff, and people were talking on the newsgroup about how they weren't feeling too great and it showed. I, meanwhile, was like they were sick? I didn't pick up on that during the concert at all, except that Dave was a lot quieter than the concert I had gone to the previous year. And I guess I didn't pick up on it because I hadn't seen them in awhile and had
nothing to compare it to. But you do see them often, and thereby have other incidents to compare with the current encounters. Wow, I'm going way psychological with this. I don't even know if it made sense.<<
Ln, you did just fine.
melanie
A.J. LoCicero
> I don't feel slighted when I see
> one of them run out the backdoor after a show. Yes, Jian usually sticks
> around more often than any of the others - perhaps, that's why most people
> feel they know him best. But just because he "usually" sticks around,
> doesn't mean that he's obligated to.
Oh let's cut the PC crap for once. I'm sick and tired of everyone going
on and on about how "they deserve their own live" etc. Face it, the
music biz is a kind of prostitution. They've sold themselves for fame,
and so it is only logical that we the consuming masses want to collect.
They owe it to us to schedule plenty of time after shows to have long
discussions with each of us about hockey, or music, or whatever boring
subject may be on our minds. They should be more careful to ensure that
EVERY SINGLE FAN gets at least one hug per show. Pose for as many
pictures as we want and each ensure that they've signed every item that
we've brought. As for um, extracurricular, they should have their date
books handy so that coffee, dinner, bowling, games and sex can be
scheduled more easily. If they think it is hard on them to have 20,000
friends all over north america, well tough! They should have thought of
that before.
Jian, I'll expect you for dinner on Sept. 3. Put it in your date book
right now!!!
richardbu...@my-deja.com
"A.J. LoCicero" <cic...@wwnet.com> practically bellowed:
> Jian, I'll expect you for dinner on Sept. 3. Put it in your date book
> right now!!!
I know its bad netiquette form to publish other people's intimate private
details on the net. But knickers to that, I say. Here is an extract from
AJs personal date book...
Monday 14th Aug.
Brad Pitt and That Dateless Woman Who Can't Act from Friends to come
round and show me their wedding photos.
Friday 18th Aug.
George W. Bush to visit my office during my coffee break and attempt to
explain to my satisfaction why Compassionate Conservatism isn't a load of
old nonsense. (Possibly followed by the taking of a large amount of
drugs.)
Saturday 19th Aug.
Charton Heston to clean out my fishpond.
Friday 25th Aug.
Hulk Hogan to twist the seats around in my Oldsmobile.
Thurs 31st Aug.
All the angels in heaven to alight upon my dreams and sing to me songs of
such beauty and clarity that the crawling miseries of mortal humanity
will seem as nothing to me, I will know peace, love and eternity.
Saturday 2nd September.
Chartlon Heston to come round and clean the fish pond properly this time,
dammit. No shirking, and missing out the nasty green slimey bits under
the water lillies like last time.
...and so on. One wonders where AJ gets the time to post on ammf.
Yours blowing off all over the place, etc,
Richard
Chad Maloney
fruvy wrote:
>
> um....how's this for an explanation?
>
> for a warm goodbye and my posting was not out of frustration,
> but just to show some minor sympathy. Nuff said?
Sure, nuff said. I do wonder how much a friend you are to him if you
set it out in your mind that he blew you off at one point awhile ago.
Friendship does go both ways, you know. Maybe[1] he was busy talking to
a record label person who happened to be female. Maybe[1] he was talking
to an interviewer for the local paper or someone important to make
an impression on. I'd recommend being considerate of your friends and not
judging them on such small inconsequential things.
I know I don't demand attention from any of my friends. I'm sure if I
did, they'd get really annoyed at me if they were busy. But I do know
that if I ever *NEED* them, they are there for me and will drop everything
for me. But I don't use those influences I have over them to get them to
say bye to me or get me some tacquitos. I use them to get someone to sit
next to me and make sure I'm not gonna die when I'm overly drunk[2].
- Chad
[1] Or maybe, just maybe, he's an attractive male that enjoys getting
attention from people he's attracted to in order to prove to himself
that he is still attractive and a person people would be interested in,
you know?
[2] Thanks, Loren. Thanks, Drea.
Spin0za1
The fact that I was at all dissapointed by Jian is one of the reasons I'm so
terrified of the way I feel... I shouldn't have any sense of entitlement to
Jian's attention... or anyone's really. I should be and always am eternally
grateful for every moment I have with them.
Meanwhile I've just shared something with you that I was only just able to
admit to myself the moment before I wrote the initial post... and you choose to
just pick out the tiny bit to criticize me.
I think I'm just not going to post here anymore.
fruvy
>Meanwhile I've just shared something with you that I was only
>just able to admit to myself the moment before I wrote the
>initial post... and you choose to just pick out the tiny bit to
>criticize me...
My god people. I make one comment in support of Gella cause I
could tell it was personal and could relate to it then all of a
sudden the two of us are jumped on because of it? Like Gella, I
also don't feel any sense of entitlement to any of his
attention, he's just a man that I know that's been a good friend
to me. That's all. I don't understand how what I said could be
seen as the bitching it's been misconstrued as but again, just
like Gella, I don't think there will be much posting from my
side anymore either.
Sally
Lynne
to them, personally.... I understand that you are not asking that someone
to meet your definition of friend.... but will you make judgements based
on their responses? I wonder....
I also wonder what "owing" has to do with anything. Jian and Gella
(Gella, you have asthama? correct?) shared a special interaction
recently.. Jian was very caring and even, brotherly. Does this make them
friends? I don't know. I think that is for the two of them to define. I
know that he cares differently for her than for me. Are he and I friends?
Not under my definition.
So "my point" is, does it really matter what an individual defines as
THE LINE?
-lynne
PS. If it was Gella who began this whole topic, I would absolutely
understand her concern if Jian wasn't as attentive as in the past. COuld
she have told him in person, maybe.. but sometimes it's nice to just vent
and find support on the newsgroup, isn't it?
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 23:24:24 -0400
From: loren becker <lo...@bosconet.org>
To: am...@fruvous.com
<snip>
Like Chad, I ask this out of curiosity and don't mean it as a personal
affront to your relationship with Jian (especially since I have no clue
what that might be, hence the question). In fact, consider this inquiry
directed at the general public, not just at Sally, because I'm curious
about people's thoughts on this.
When you say Jian (or any other band member) is a friend of yours, what
does that mean? Do you hang out with him when he's not on the clock, so
to speak? Does he confide in you? (Insert similar questions here.) Where
is the line between fan and friend?
I ask this because a lot of people think of members of the band as their
friends. We, as fans, expect a lot from them. We also get a lot from
them. But in truth, they have no responsibility to any of us no matter
what we expect. The amount of attention the fans get is entirely up to
the band, not any obligation.
Enough from me. I'm exhausted and perhaps I'm just missing the point.
/l
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
o/~ I'm looking for one thing real tonight. o/~
-- Dan Bern
Ellen
i'm sorry, but i'm with the others. the reason that one detail
was
picked on was that that was where someone (or rather someoneS)
felt that you were out of line. and you were.
you shouldn't have to feel eternally grateful for any scrap of
attention a band member gives you, because you shouldn't be
needing it that much. do you see that?
and you shouldn't be expecting it, either. it's not fair to the
band you love so dearly to expect that kind of devotion from
them.
presumably, you give it freely to them, and that means they owe
you nothing in return. but your expectations, as you state them
here, have gotten out of hand. that's all anyone was trying to
say. that's basically what YOU yourself (gella) said in the
original post, and some people agreed with you. don't post
things
like that if you don't want to hear that others agree.
and if this criticism is enough to stop you from posting here,
then perhaps it's better that you do, at least for a while.
until
you get some perspective.
peace,
ellen
Ellen
>and if this criticism is enough to stop you from posting here,
>then perhaps it's better that you do, at least for a while.
>until you get some perspective.
unfortunately, i hit send before actually developing this
thought.
i don't mean to push anyone away or imply that your contribution
to amm-f is not a worthy one. but sometimes when you've gotten a
little too close to a subject, taking a step back can give you a
much more balanced view of the whole thing.
in any case, take care and try not to sweat the little things.
MrB
fuck it, I'm posting anyway...
Frankly, I feel sorry for Jian, Murray, Mike and Dave, because
not only do they have to deal with the sometimes selfish fans,
but belive it or not, this NG gets read by them(1) and frankly
it would piss me off if I was them. How would you like it if
a 'friend' went on the internet and posted to a newsgroup that
you felp slighted, even if it was a small detail of the post,
obviously it stands out because so many people thought it was
wrong/selfish/rude/whatever... I admire Fruvous for the fact
that they are different and they talk to their fans and hang out
from time to time with us, but I'll be damned, friend or no
friend, if they owe me anything before/during/after a show...
And... if the music biz is prostitution, and Fruvous sold
themselves for fame, I hope they got change, frequent flyer
miles or something else, cause I personally thing they are
getting the shit end of the fame stick.
-Mark
"*Bing* The Captain has turned on the 'Sit the f^ck down, Shut
the f^ck up' light" -Henry Rollins
(1)(Jian has told me he does, but I will not speak for the rest
of them, only assume that they hear things from the NG via the
grapevine)
KatieWow
While the fact of whether or not Jian actually reads this thing anymore is
up for debate (e.g., I've heard him say he never will again and then had him
tell me that he read that I did/said/read something or went somewhere), it
really shouldn't be a reason not to post something here. I'm sure that
whether he reads or not, he wouldn't want any of us to feel as though we
should censor ourselves for his eyes.
That said, don't think that he won't call you on something he reads :).
Anyway, I feel the age-old "Can I call them my friends?!" debate coming on.
And certainly, they're friendly to us. Also certainly, some of them have
real friendships with some fans. It's kind of arbitrary really . . . but I
don't know that I am in a position to put a label on someone else's
relationship with any band member. I do think, however, that information on
personal discourse with the band is better left off of this particular
forum, but, again, I can't really say what someone should or should not do.
The band members put themselves in a precarious position by treating their
fans the way that they do. It's not necessarily contingent upon either side
of the equation to cross any specific lines. There's a strange balance, I
think. I've had lengthy conversations with various band members about lots
of different things; certainly some of those conversations are not unlike
ones I frequently have with old friends or teachers. It's a tough
distinction, I think; but mostly, I think the mass of us needs to be very
diplomatic and respectful when it comes to this particular part of our
lives - if it's something some of us care about deeply . . . and it
certainly seems to be. I can't really relate to either side of this
argument because I don't know that I fall firmly in line with either
opinion, but I think careful consideration and exercise of good judgement
are really the keys to a successful decision.
--Kate, feeling mock-profound :)
MJ
"A.J. LoCicero" wrote:
> Oh let's cut the PC crap for once. I'm sick and tired of everyone going
> on and on about how "they deserve their own live" etc. Face it, the
> music biz is a kind of prostitution. They've sold themselves for fame,
> and so it is only logical that we the consuming masses want to collect.
> They owe it to us to schedule plenty of time after shows to have long
> discussions with each of us about hockey, or music, or whatever boring
> subject may be on our minds. They should be more careful to ensure that
> EVERY SINGLE FAN gets at least one hug per show.
I'm going to end up repeating everybody, but I felt that I just had to share my
$.02:
I'm kinda split on this whole issue. Not to sound like a total materialistic
@$$hole or anything, but I was sort of under the impression that not only is the
after-show meet & greet fun for the fans and themselves, but they also do it
because it probably works quite well as a mechanism in attracting new fans. So,
I kinda do understand where our high expectations come from. Sure, other more
mainstream bands don't do this kind of stuff, so why should we expect this much
from Fruvous? Well, after spending $120-ish on them, maybe we should. But we
(and the performers) don't; those are the facts.
OTOH, I do see what everyone has been saying to Gella and Sally, and I think
Ellen managed to put it best. At the risk of repeating everyone else, Gella and
Sally, if you're still reading, I think that no one meant for you guys to take
it personally; they just wanted to point out that as much as the guys probably
enjoy interacting with their fans, you need to take it easy on whatever
expectations you have for them. For example, wouldn't it be considered rude if
you were deep in conversation with Person A, and Person B gets all upset just
because you didn't pay attention to Person B immediately at that time and
point? Maybe the situation was more complicated than that, but it certainly
came across to at least me that way.
And I'm going to be stepping on a lot of toes here, but Gella and Sally aren't
the first ones who've reacted this way on the NG. Just pointing that out.
And Gella, like you yourself said, maybe it *does* have to stop. Reassess the
way you're reacting. Take a break from Fruvous, and come back in a year. Maybe
any Fru-experiences then will be much more enjoyable for you.
~MJ
MJ
MJ
1) sorry i sent this to you as well AJ; must've hit reply to all by accident.
2) hence, I tried to stop myself from doing that, but too late, it got sent twice
and to AJ as well.
3) I just discovered that my post was horribly incoherent. But, I think enough has
been said, so I'll just let whatever I said wither away in cyberspace to die on its
own.
A.J. LoCicero
> The fact that I was at all dissapointed by Jian is one of the reasons I'm so
> terrified of the way I feel... I shouldn't have any sense of entitlement to
> Jian's attention... or anyone's really. I should be and always am eternally
> grateful for every moment I have with them.
>
> Meanwhile I've just shared something with you that I was only just able to
> admit to myself the moment before I wrote the initial post... and you choose to
> just pick out the tiny bit to criticize me.
Gella, I for one would not criticize the process that you are going
through. You've admitted that you feel like you are obsessed and you
are trying to find a more balanced perspective. Nobody here is going to
fault you for that. In fact I say Bravo! Keep it up! Let me know if I
can help in any way.
I found nothing whatever offensive about your post. I didn't read you
as feeling entitled, only kind of bummed because you didn't get that bit
of attention from Jian. How many of us can say that we haven't felt
that way at one time or another when someone whom we like/admire/have a
crush on fails to notice us? That is normal for someone in your
position.
I don't think people picked out one bit to criticize you. Rather they
replied to Sally who had picked that one bit to express sympathy about.
What I think people were questioning/criticizing about Sally's post is
that she sounded a little too much like crossing a line to some people I
think. From her phraseology it seemed like she sort of expected more
from Jian, thus drawing the usual cautions from the usual suspects.
> I think I'm just not going to post here anymore.
That is of course up to you, But I for one actually look forward to many
of your posts and so I would hope that you will stick around. I'm
sorry if anything I personally said offended. I was intending to be
funny rather than mean.
Sugar...@aol.com
should we expect this much from Fruvous? Well, after spending $120-ish on
them, maybe we should. But we (and the performers) don't; those are the
facts.>>
Huh? I don't quite think I get these sentences.If you're saying after
spending $120-ish on a band and since you do they should probably be more
Fruvous-like, I disagree. For one thing, a band with a lot of fans would have
a really hard time hanging around after a show like Fruvous does, simply
because there *are* so many fans. And spending money on them wouldn't give
special privileges like that. The $120-ish goes to concerts and cds and maybe
a tshirt (i'm assuming) so the only responsibility they have to you is to
make sure you get that tshirt and that cd, and they put on that concert that
you paid for.
------------> Ln
Katherine Maheux
> If Jian (or insert name here) is a friend, then likely he would call you,
> email you, go for coffee when he's in town, etc. If that's the case, then
> why do you need a hug after a show? And if he's simply someone from a band
> who is kind enough to talk to his audience after a show, well, then he
> really doesn't owe you anything. (Not trying to attack anyone or their
> perceptions of their relationships, but simply stating "my opinion" (tm)).
That's a good way of putting it, Sar. I've met a lot of people over the
past three and a half years who either believed or had been led to
believe (who knows, maybe Fruvous' attitude towards fan-band
relationships just does that to people) that they were friends with one
or more member of the band. And I think it's pretty sad because once
there's a conflict with that band member and their personal vs.
professional space, they might be apt to feeling betrayed or discarded.
And that's really too bad. Moxy Früvous should be a pleasant experience.
There's really no need for all these "What am I to him? - He didn't
smile at me - Where does he get off?" kinds of feelings and thoughts.
I'm really proud of Gella, even though I don't know her very well, for
realizing that she might not have been doing what's best for her by
obsessing over Früvous so much. I hope that you can find a good balance,
Gella.
As for me, I don't really consider the members of Moxy Früvous to have
any kind of friendship-like obligation to me. The truth is, I don't
remember ever feeling truly hurt or ignored or left out by a band
member. For lack of a better term, I usually refer to them, when talking
of them to people who don't really know who they are, as "someone I
know" or "someone I sort of know" or the now-ever-convenient "this guy
my roomate works for".
Sure, it's nice when someone who's been onstage for 2 hours sweating
with teenage girls screaming "____, I want to have your baby!" takes a
minute to ask you how you are doing. It makes you feel important, and
there's nothing wrong with that. Fans are very important. And Moxy
Früvous treats theirs exceptionally well, and really appreciates how
interesting and diverse they (we) are.
Now back to your regularly scheduled bitchfest 2000. Feel free to pick
apart any statements I might not have thought through completely.
Kath
A.J. LoCicero
>
> Gella wrote:
>
> >Meanwhile I've just shared something with you that I was only
> >just able to admit to myself the moment before I wrote the
> >initial post... and you choose to just pick out the tiny bit to
>
> My god people. I make one comment in support of Gella cause I
> could tell it was personal and could relate to it then all of a
> sudden the two of us are jumped on because of it? Like Gella, I
> also don't feel any sense of entitlement to any of his
> attention, he's just a man that I know that's been a good friend
> to me. That's all. I don't understand how what I said could be
> seen as the bitching
Well, you said:
> <Jian's semi blowing me off because he was with a woman...
>
> Incidentally, when I met him at Clearwater this year, he
> semi-did that to me too.
> *hmph*
That sure sounds like you feeling a bit jilted. I see that you may not
have meant it that way, but you have to admit that is the most obvious
reading.
Loren made a generalized reply which she specifically stated was not
aimed at you or your relationship to Jian (since she was in no position
to comment). Maybe Chad was a bit harsh, but he was responding with a
rational question to what you seemed to be implying, which was that Jian
paid less attention to you than you thought was appropriate. If that
isn't what you meant then just say so.
This Newsgroup, I'm sure you have all noticed, is rather touchy about
people claiming to be "Friends" of any of the band members. This is
because many fans who talk about it seem to assume more intimate
relationships with the band members than they actually have, and because
those who may in fact actually have relationships beyond fan/performer
will generally not discuss those on the newsgroup. I have no knowledge
of most of your relationships with any of the frulads, so personally,
I'm not going to be making any assumptions, however you should be aware
that if you post anything here which says "I am a personal friend of X
band member" you had better be prepared for that statement to be
examined. That is just the nature of the culture around here.
Maggie
or four responses. now it's a *lot* and i thought i was getting
upset yesterday. i absolutely HAVE to add my thoughts here.
i saw what how Jian blew Gella off, and i made me mad. they
were talking, having a good conversation. Gella was quizzing
Jian to see if he remembered her middle name, as he addressed
her by her full name when he saw her. everything was good, and
i know kinda how Gella is, and i was happy for her. Ji turned
around and saw a friend of his, didn't say goodbye to Gella and
just walked away to this other girl. and i can understand why,
he didn't know how long she'd be there, he might not have been
able to find her afterwards, anything really. it was just
generally rude. i would have been just as upset if anyone else
had done the exact same thing, not necessarily Jian.
and Sally's similar experience. i wasn't there, but the girl he
was talking to when he semi-blew off Sally was a friend of his.
i've met her before and seen her at shows and things. so it
wasn't a reporter or a record label person. she was a friend.
and i'd like to add that Sally and Jian really *do* have
something that resembles a friendship. from my knowledge they
haven't yet met outside of a concert atmosphere, but something
along those lines is in the works for the somewhat near future.
so this isn't a friendship that Sally dreamt up in her
disillusions.
so that's the history i'd like to share. now here's what i have
to say. LAY OFF. this is addressed to everyone who has
something mean/snarky/meanttobehelpfulbutjustdidn'tcomeoutright
that has turned this tiny thread into what it's become. Gella
was posting something that was sharing something EXTREMELY
personal with this community here on ammf. and what happens?
she's jumped on and basically insulted. and that isn't right at
all. it's akin to a friend of yours confiding an embarrassing
secret to you and you laugh in his/her face. it's just mean.
Sally posted to give a bit of sympathy, not to "show off" the
fact that she and Jian are friends or a reasonable facsimile
thereof. she was being kind, she was giving a cyberhug.
and what's the result? Gella's not going to post, and probably
not going to read. and worst of all, she's left with a sour
taste in her mouth before she heads off to spain in the fall. :(
that's SO not cool.
c'mon people, let's try a little kindness and support here.
~Maggie~
"Frÿfffffc
Chris K @*_*@
*snip*
> Jian, I'll expect you for dinner on Sept. 3. Put it in
> your date book right now!!!
*checks calendar* AJ, are you blowing me off for dinner on September 3rd
now? PPPFFFFBBBTTT!!! :p
Christine.
*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*
--Diet soda?
--No thanks. FREAKED!!!!
--Fiddle Faddle? Elijah to Ricky
--Alright...delicious. 1993
*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*
Shilfiell
<frugalma...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote:
> Gella
> was posting something that was sharing something EXTREMELY
> personal with this community here on ammf. and what happens?
> she's jumped on and basically insulted. and that isn't right at
> all. it's akin to a friend of yours confiding an embarrassing
> secret to you and you laugh in his/her face. it's just mean.
Amen, Maggie.
I too found nothing offensive in Gella's post. I happen to think that
Gella's a wonderful, sweet girl who deserves a bit better, and it makes
me angry to think that her feelings might have been hurt because of
this misunderstanding. Come back, Gella!
-kimberly
lawrence solomon
> i'm sorry, but i'm with the others. the reason that one detail was
> picked on was that that was where someone (or rather someoneS)
> felt that you were out of line. and you were.
out of line? it's out of line to want something? nowhere in Gella's post
does she say she *expects* Jian, or any of the other guys to give her
attention, but that it is nice when they do, and she'll miss that when she
leaves the country. I don't see what's so terrible about that.
> you shouldn't have to feel eternally grateful for any scrap of
> attention a band member gives you, because you shouldn't be
> needing it that much. do you see that?
why not? are people not allowed to take pleasure and find comfort in the
things they enjoy? can someone not feel eternally grateful for something that
someone did above and beyond the call of duty?
> and you shouldn't be expecting it, either. it's not fair to the
> band you love so dearly to expect that kind of devotion from
> them.
and I don't think anyone is expecting it. read Gella's post carefully and see
that she, herself, thinks it's an unhealthy obsession. she freely admits that
she relies on Früvous too heavily - not necessarily the guys personally, but
the band, the shows, and the experiences, good or bad.
the phrase that everyone has been picking on is this:
"...all I can think of is...Jian's semi blowing me off because he was with a
woman..."
she's recounting her memory of meeting the guys at the show, not complaining
that Jian didn't give her the time of day. what he did was "part of the
experience."
> presumably, you give it freely to them, and that means they owe
> you nothing in return. but your expectations, as you state them
> here, have gotten out of hand. that's all anyone was trying to
> say. that's basically what YOU yourself (gella) said in the
> original post, and some people agreed with you. don't post
> things like that if you don't want to hear that others agree.
nope. she says nothing about expectations in her original post. nothing
about them owing her anything more than the show she paid money to see.
> and if this criticism is enough to stop you from posting here,
> then perhaps it's better that you do, at least for a while.
> until you get some perspective.
excuse me, but that is just way out of line. condescending and rude, telling
someone to "get some perspective." I think you owe Gella an apology.
chad schrock
"Chris K @*_*@" wrote:
> "A.J. LoCicero" wrote:
>
> *snip*
>
> > Jian, I'll expect you for dinner on Sept. 3. Put it in
> > your date book right now!!!
>
> *checks calendar* AJ, are you blowing me off for dinner on
> September 3rd now? PPPFFFFBBBTTT!!! :p
With you?!?!?!?!
AJ, I blew off dinner with Murray to have dinner with you
on the 3rd!
You'd better pick who you want to have dinner with![1]
[1] - and it had better be me.
--
chad at radix dot net
Fruvous, dinner, and the Backstreet Boys. All in one post.
Imagine that.
chad schrock
Maggie wrote:
> that has turned this tiny thread into what it's become. Gella
> was posting something that was sharing something EXTREMELY
> personal with this community here on ammf. and what happens?
This is NOT a community. This is a newsgroup. This is a
newsgroup populated by a large number of people that post a
lot and an even larger number of people that just read (lurk).
True, this newsgroup is "nicer" than many other newsgroups
out there, but that does not make us a "community." A
"community" is that collection of people and buildings on
the other side of your door or window.
> she's jumped on and basically insulted. and that isn't right at
> all. it's akin to a friend of yours confiding an embarrassing
> secret to you and you laugh in his/her face.
No, this is a friend confiding an embarrassing secret with a
paid advert during the Super Bowl/World Cup final.
[snip]
> c'mon people, let's try a little kindness and support here.
<snark> This is also not a support group. </snark>
--
chad at radix dot net
this FF has flown
Donna Hunt
"Chris K @*_*@" wrote:
> Wait a minute, mister!!! Let me get this straight - I'm blowing off a
> dinner with Dave-O to have dinner with AJ. However chad is cancelling a
> dinner with Murray to have dinner with AJ and AJ is cancelling a dinner
> with Jian to have a dinner with which one of us?
Dammit, chad! Stop being such a whore! You *know* we were supposed to have
dinner on the 3rd! Metrojet? Hello? Damn You to Heck.
Fine, blow me off. [1] I'll survive. Chrissy is strong... But who will be
next?!?
bitterly,
donna
[1] In the *American* sense, Richard.
fruvy
Ln, was right, to not post would just be childish and I'm past
that. I'm not going to *not* post. I realize now and I'm sorry
that I brought some personal stuff into this NG that doesn't
belong.
AJ wrote:
>Maybe Chad was a bit harsh, but he
>was responding with a
>rational question to what you seemed to be
>implying, which was that Jian
>paid less attention to you than you thought was
>appropriate. If that
>isn't what you meant then just say so.
Okay, you're also right, and I'm here to do just that: to say
that the way what I said is being taken just isn't even close to
what I meant.
I never meant to come across as sounding vengeful or pissed off
at being "slighted." I was trying to sound sympathetic as
Maggie and Lawrence & Co. recognized as well...
As for that tidbit about Jian, in retrospect, I should've kept
it to myself and now I regret that I didn't. I didn't say that
I was pissed or that I felt he owed me attention or anything
else. I understand now just how exactly it got misunderstood
(thank you AJ). Again, I am not/nor was I pissed off at Jian
and I don't feel he owed me anything. I wasn't posting out of
frustration but rather out of sympathy to Gella, or as Maggie
called it, I offered her a cyber hug, and that's still holds.
I'm sorry that I've managed to provoke what stopped her from
reading the NG.
*sally*
Jason A. Reiser
>
...
>Dammit, chad! Stop being such a whore! You *know* we were supposed to have
>dinner on the 3rd! Metrojet? Hello? Damn You to Heck.
Speaking of whores... I was thinking about the whole
lack-of-a-proper-hug-goodbye issue, and thought I might point out another
possibility. It's important to remember that a goodbye "hug" could be perceived
by the proper authorities as an act of prostitution.[1] Remember - you *paid*
money to see four men perform rather unusual acts on a stage. Their antics may
elict any number of emotional and physical outbursts from the patrons, but this
is a professional relationship. It's been a while since I've seen a "no
touching the performers" sign at a Fruvous show, but regardless it's implied...
and something they cannot take lightly.
Once outside the venue, the lads are more able to openly interact with their
patrons. As for Clearwater, I suspect the "venue" would cover the entire
festival grounds... thus making a close personal goodbye a real no-no.
Be careful. There's a fine line between friendship and prostitution.
- Jason
[1] I'll leave the issue of "is selling ones art an act of prostitution" as an
exercise for the reader.
melinda klump
I spent much of my day today being furious at the goings-on here at ammf,
and had anticipated writing a scathing reply to those who might criticize
you, as I've done in the past. After a long walk home, however, and some
time to reflect, though I'm still feeling angry, I find that it is more
important to me to speak to YOU. I am hoping against hope that you will not
stop posting to this forum. Your posts are my greatest joy here. They are
always thoughtful, thought-provoking, and from the heart. It is no suprise
to me that the band touches you the way they do, both musically and
personally. As a songwriter and performer one is, through one's work,
inviting people in to one's life, at least a large part of it. The artist
is opening up his or her soul to the world, always at risk of being
misunderstood, or perhaps understood, and dealing with the consequences of
such. You live your whole life like that- always sharing your truest
feelings, always inviting us in. This is one of the many things I have
grown to love and admire about you, and I'm sorry for the times that it has
brought you under attack, but I'm glad you haven't stopped. Please don't
stop.
In response to your original post, I know that you are worried about your
obsession with moxy fruvous, and I can understand your concern, but, unlike
many folks here, I don't consider that a bad thing. In the words of John
Irving, "You've got to get obsessed and stay obsessed". I've had a great
many obsessions in my time, and I've found that each and every one of them
took me someplace I needed to be- to someone i needed to meet, or to
something i needed to find. I've rarely been able to see this ahead of
time, but it has proven to be the case, time and time again. I can't
promise you anything, but this has been my experience. I"m not suggesting
that you stick with something that is making you miserable in any way, but I
do know that you have gotten a lot of joy out of your experience as a
fruhead, and I hope there is much more of that to come.
In any case, you are about to embark on a great adventure, one which I envy
quite a bit. I hope you'll have an incredible time. I hope it changes your
life. I also hope that you'll come back to us, for there are those here who
love you very much.
Good luck, my dear, dear friend. I hope you will never become as jaded or
as petty as those who have hurt you, now and in the past. Stay yourself.
In the end, you won't be sorry.
Much love,
Melinda
> From: spin...@aol.commmm (Spin0za1)
> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
> Newsgroups: alt.music.moxy-fruvous
> Date: 01 Aug 2000 16:37:29 GMT
> To: am...@fruvous.com
> Subject: Re: Ghosts of Fruvous; obsessions
>
> I find it amazing that that one bit was what you chose to focus on.
>
> The fact that I was at all dissapointed by Jian is one of the reasons I'm so
> terrified of the way I feel... I shouldn't have any sense of entitlement to
> Jian's attention... or anyone's really. I should be and always am eternally
> grateful for every moment I have with them.
>
> Meanwhile I've just shared something with you that I was only just able to
> admit to myself the moment before I wrote the initial post... and you choose
> to
> just pick out the tiny bit to criticize me.
>
> I think I'm just not going to post here anymore.
>
Shelly S
and figure*if i wanna catch it, i'll go to the NG*, but i couldn't help reading
these recent posts...
i feel the need to respond as such(and you can either like me, hate me, or not
care either way!)
gella is my friend and i understand what she means because i know how special
the band and following them has been to her. i know how she feels about the
band. i know what she AND sally mean by jian dissing them for a woman, cause he
did the same to me at clearwater, too. c'mon, we all know jian does it, but i
also feel that it is his right to talk to whomever he wants to talk to. i also
know that he nor murray nor dave nor mike is not obligated to give us any shred
of their time and it is wonderful that they do so.
i agree that we should not censor what we say around here(unless it's just
tactless or raunchy or inappropriate) because of the fact that the band may
read it. i agree that jian would probably not want that, as i feel he is a
person who respects people and their opinions. i don't know if they still read
it or not. i do know that at a concert jian said he was *familiar with me* and
i'd only met him twice before and that was almost a year prior to this concert
and then i just asked for an autograph and a picture..no real conversation...
i know that gella was not saying that she was grateful for the time that the
band spends with her as a desperation thing, as i feel it has been interpreted.
she was merely expressing gratitude for the fact that they ARE so good to so
many of us and always have a moment and a kind word (eg-jian bending over
backwards practically at the Frü-B-Que to help leah with her asthma and
convincing her mom to let her at least stay upstairs in the green room for it;
dave giving me a big hug when i left the Frü-B-Q and thanking me for my help
with the t-shirts we had made and presented to them as well, dave wishing me a
*safe home* when i left clearwater, mike commenting on my being at FRFF and
making the trek from philly and camping, murray asking me on sunday at FRFF if
i had enough sunblock on cause i looked like i was burning)
i like the band. hell, who am i kidding; i LOVE the band. they are talented,
nice, down-to-earth people no matter what anyone says. they know they are not
obligated to talk to us. they choose to do so. if they didn't want to, they
would not engage us in conversation when they seee one of us that they
recognize at or before concerts, at the festivals, etc...
am i obsessed with the band? hmmm..well, that depends on who you ask.... my
friend karen thinks i am,(though i say she's a closet fruhead cause she's been
to 3 shows with me and even signed up for an FHDC account to find me when i'm
online..and she's talked on the powerwall!!!!) if you aks my mom, she just
wonders why i go to see the same band so many times(i am sure you'll all
understand and admit that no show is ever the same..part of the fun and the
draw..) i don't go to as many shows or travel as far as some of my fruhead
friends do. but would i if i could? sure. is it just the band? no. the
band is a lot of it. my fruhead friends are a BIG part of it. FRFF was
special to me not only because of seeing fruvous and so many other bands i
enjoy repeatedly, it was spending 4 days with my dearest friends, enjoying
music we all like and being together.
ok..here's my point<jian ref>....we all like the band or we wouldn't be here.
we all have a right to our opinions and the right to express them. we are all
fruheads.(well, i *think* we are) we are all, i'm sure, nice people, as i have
*yet* to meet a fruhead that i just thought was a total asshole(though i've
heard stories..) we should just all try to enjoy ourselves, enjoy the band's
music, enjoy any time that we get to talk with the band, enjoy life as a
whole....not to be melancholy, but it IS fleeting, and we should appreciate
what we have..
and now you will probably all enjoy the fact that my post is over.
shelly(and for those of you from camp fruvous, i just wanna quote adam
brodsky's songs from sat nite!!!)
~oh, look, one has RE-turned!! let us RE-joice~...from 'three sunburned
fruheads'/'three chartreuse buzzards'
Chris K @*_*@
that I've been reading on the NG lately...
Superstar
--The Carpenters
Long ago and oh so far away
I fell in love with you before the second show
Your guitar, it sounds so sweet and clear
But you're not really here
It's just the radio
(*) Don't you remember you told me you loved me baby
You said you'd be coming back this way again baby
Baby, baby, baby, baby, oh, baby, I love you I really do
Loneliness is a such a sad affair
And I can hardly wait to be with you again
What to say to make you come again
Come back to me again
And play your sad guitar
Christine.
-- see, I told you I own cheesy music. *g*
Chris K @*_*@
> "Chris K @*_*@" wrote:
> > "A.J. LoCicero" wrote:
> >
> > *snip*
> >
> > > Jian, I'll expect you for dinner on Sept. 3. Put it in
> > > your date book right now!!!
> >
> > *checks calendar* AJ, are you blowing me off for dinner on
> > September 3rd now? PPPFFFFBBBTTT!!! :p
>
> With you?!?!?!?!
>
> AJ, I blew off dinner with Murray to have dinner with you
> on the 3rd!
>
> You'd better pick who you want to have dinner with![1]
Wait a minute, mister!!! Let me get this straight - I'm blowing off a
dinner with Dave-O to have dinner with AJ. However chad is cancelling a
dinner with Murray to have dinner with AJ and AJ is cancelling a dinner
with Jian to have a dinner with which one of us?
Christine.
Chris K @*_*@
> "Chris K @*_*@" wrote:
>
> > Wait a minute, mister!!! Let me get this straight - I'm blowing off a
> > dinner with Dave-O to have dinner with AJ. However chad
> > is cancelling a
> > dinner with Murray to have dinner with AJ and AJ is
> > cancelling a dinner
> > with Jian to have a dinner with which one of us?
>
> we were supposed to have
> dinner on the 3rd! Metrojet? Hello? Damn You to Heck.
Hmmm...according to the schedule, looks like Murray is free Donna, I
think you two have a date on September 3rd. Or is it you, Murray and
chad? Or maybe it's Murray, chad, you and AJ? Wait, what about me? Are
well all going to fit into the Metrojet? I don't think Jian is going to
go. We don't have room, unless we strap him to the roof.
> Fine, blow me off. [1] I'll survive. Chrissy is
> strong... But who will be next?!?
I think Mike is next. *evil laugh*
Chris K @*_*@
it's 11:30pm donna, fix your clock. ;D
Christine.
A.J. LoCicero
>
> Maggie wrote:
>
> > that has turned this tiny thread into what it's become. Gella
> > was posting something that was sharing something EXTREMELY
> > personal with this community here on ammf. and what happens?
>
> This is NOT a community. This is a newsgroup. This is a
> newsgroup populated by a large number of people that post a
> lot and an even larger number of people that just read (lurk).
>
> True, this newsgroup is "nicer" than many other newsgroups
> out there, but that does not make us a "community." A
> "community" is that collection of people and buildings on
> the other side of your door or window.
I have to take issue with you there chad. I think this newsgroup (along
with the group of people it is a forum for) IS a community. True, it is
a much larger and more diverse one than it was when we started throwing
that word around five years ago, but it still IS a community. We share
some common interests and we have at least a general idea of who each
other (lurkers excluded) are.
The essence of what you are saying (That someone posting here should
expect that people may take issue with what they have said) is valid
IMHO, but nevertheless I do not think that it is inappropriate for
someone to discuss any aspect of fruvous fandom here, including the
difficulties of discovering obsession. Or the feelings one has when one
sees a show etc.
> > she's jumped on and basically insulted. and that isn't right at
> > all. it's akin to a friend of yours confiding an embarrassing
> > secret to you and you laugh in his/her face.
>
> No, this is a friend confiding an embarrassing secret with a
> paid advert during the Super Bowl/World Cup final.
I think you are both right or both wrong here. Take your pick.
> > c'mon people, let's try a little kindness and support here.
>
> <snark> This is also not a support group. </snark>
Yes it is. It was designed as a forum for fans to share information and
thereby HELP each other. If you don't want to help you don't have to,
but you shouldn't criticize others for doing so.
A.J. (working both sides of the barricade as usual)
Sugar...@aol.com
I resent that! :) Be nice to us...we're little... :)
---------> Ln, the teenager (who doesn't scream, at least not about having
people's babies..)
Ellen
>out of line? it's out of line to want something? nowhere in
>Gella's post does she say she *expects* Jian,
actually, the feeling of being blown off implies that you
expected something different. she didn't say she was sad that
jian hadn't had time to stay and talk to her. she said he'd
blown her off. also, reacting with a "hmph" (as sally did)
implies that something different was expected.
but the real issue here is that neither of these reactions were
really fair to jian and thus shouldn't have been discussed
online in front of thousands of people.
>I don't see what's so terrible about that.
and no one ever said it was terrible. just inappropriate.
>can someone not feel eternally grateful for something that
>someone did above and beyond the call of duty?
read the actual words, lawrence. eternally grateful. moxy
fruvous did not pull anyone from the path of a speeding car. or
drag them from the depths of despair. this is a band we're
talking about. they bring a little joy into all of our lives,
or we wouldn't be here. but perspective! this is where
perspective comes in. expecting the band to be the sole light-
at-the-end-of-your-daily-tunnel is just unfair to them.
>and I don't think anyone is expecting it. read Gella's post
> carefully and see that she, herself, thinks it's an unhealthy
> obsession. she freely admits that she relies on Früvous too
> heavily -
exactly. that's the feeling that a bunch of people got-- all the
criticism stemmed from that feeling. what do you call "relies
on fruvous a little too heavily" if not "expects" something from
the experience?
if you leave a show disappointed, then is it not true that you
expected something different? and truthfully, do we as fans have
any right to be disappointed in much beyond the quality of the
performance? [1]
>the phrase that everyone has been picking on is this:
but it's not, really. it's the implications of that phrase.
>excuse me, but that is just way out of line. condescending and
>rude, telling someone to "get some perspective." I think you
>owe Gella an apology.
and i disagree. i think gella would too, considering how she
just told me the other day: "You have every right to state any
opinion you may have whether it's judgemental or rude or...
anything. It is a fundamental and inalienable right and PLEASE
don't forget that!"
gella herself said that she looked forward to her time away,
that she needed to take a step back from the whole scene. while
it may not have been obvious, i applaud her for that too. the
whole point of this thread has been people saying, "well, if
that's the kind of thing that sticks out in your mind, then
you're probably right, you do need some time away."
bottom line, folks: this is a newsgroup read by thousands of
people around the world. do not post anything that you don't
want to hear thousands of peoples' opinions on.
i've explained this before, but i guess it needs repeating.
this newsgroup is read by THOUSANDS of people. with different
news feeds and different ISPs. when you post something, replies
are going to come in for days, from people who just saw it even
though it might have been there for days already. some of them
have not gotten all of the other responses yet. some of them
are just going to say the first thing that comes to mind.
part of the reason you think you're being attacked when this
happens is the way that the responses just keep on coming. it's
not because people want to dogpile on you. it's because there
are so many of them out there that they can't possibly all know
that 50 people have already said what they're about to say.
that's how a newsgroup works. AJ is right and chad is right.
this is a community, but it's also a public forum.
peace,
ellen
[1] i'm not getting into the obvious things like celebrities-as-
role-models, when they're actually not nice people-- that's a
different topic altogether and doesn't really apply here.
RAI-- Random Access Insanity
<<Gella's not going to post, and probably
not going to read.>>
So I'm not the only one who picked this up?
Gella said a few posts back that she was leaving the newsgroup. I think it's
really sad when someone has to avoid something or other to be happy. And here
you all are, still bashing away at her and her beliefs.
So what if Jian doesn't consider Gella a friend and Gella considers him one?
So what if she said something that you found the need to criticize? She's
leaving in a month or so and decided to share her happy feelings of her last
concert. You picked out the one negative thing and all rampage on it. I'm sure
that made her feel so much better.
I'm usually sitting here keeping my mouth shut, making innocent comments on
shows or budgie dogs or whatever. I'm not one to get into fights online, I do
that enough at my other newsgroup. But here's what I say: If someone wants to
dream, let them. If someone believes something, let them. And if someone's
LEAVING in a month, don't criticize her! Gella's probably feeling awful right
now because people on the newsgroup, people that she's formed bonds with, have
suddenly turned against her.
When I read that first post from Gella, I suddenly felt sympathetic. I
guess, to me, it would be like me wanting to talk to my favourite teacher about
something and having him blowing me off. I mean, I might consider this teacher
a friend, but he might just consider me just another one of his students. That
doesn't mean that I can't feel sorry for myself. And that doesn't mean I don't
have the right to share my feelings with others.
People are saying Gella was out of line for thinking that. Well I say that
she's not out of line for thinking anything. I think people were out of line by
going out of their way to break Gella's little one-moment-of-happiness-left
bubble. She's leaving in a month. She won't get to see Früvous again for
another year. Put yourself in her shoes, okay?
I just want people here to respect each other and each other's feelings. I
just read something a few posts earlier about how no Fruhead this one person
ever met was an "asshole". It'd be nice if we could keep it that way.
--Rai
--"If you were told lies your whole life, would you want to know the truth?"
~My favourite teacher, Mr. Ayton
~ * ~ * ~ * ~ * ~ * ~ * ~ * ~ * ~ * ~ * ~* ~
This realization came to me:
I am a teenybopper at heart.
Dang.
::goes back to listening to her new Hanson CD in shame::
Ellen
> Gella said a few posts back that she was leaving the newsgroup.
she said she was going to stop posting. i suspect she's still
reading.
> She's leaving in a month or so and decided to share her happy
> feelings of her last concert. You picked out the one negative
> thing and all rampage on it.
did you read her actual post? she talked about how she *needed*
six months away from this scene. there was one or two sentences'
worth of happy feelings, the rest was introspection and self-
realization. the last thing she said was, "this has got to stop."
> But here's what I say: If someone wants to dream, let them.
with ya there.
> If someone believes something, let them.
still with ya.
> And if someone's LEAVING in a month, don't criticize her!
*what*?? what does that have to do with anything?? if i got wind
of some personal info about one of the band members and posted it
here a week before shipping off to another country for a year,
would i be immune to criticism? no.
>people on the newsgroup, people that she's formed bonds with,
> have suddenly turned against her.
no one has turned against her. particularly not the ones she has
formed bonds with. did you not notice all of the supportive
posts
she's gotten? those are the people she's bonded with. if gella
feels that people have turned against her, then she's ignoring
the
actual message that people are trying to send her.
the overwhelming message is one of concern. we are all
concerned.
as far as i know, no one has anything against gella.
> People are saying Gella was out of line for thinking that.
i said that gella was out of line for *posting* it. i think the
fact that gella thinks it is unhealthy. but i have no control
over what people think.
>I think people were out of line by going out of their way to
> break Gella's little one-moment-of-happiness-left
>bubble.
why in heaven's name do you think anyone has any malicious intent
here?
> I just read something a few posts earlier about how no Fruhead
> this one person ever met was an "asshole". It'd be nice if we
> could keep it that way.
i'm sorry, we can't. there are assholes everywhere, ok? but if
you decide that anyone who posted something that wasn't soothing
in reponse to gella is an asshole, then you just haven't examined
the entire situation. you're only acting on knee-jerk
sentimentality.
peace,
ellen
Veronica J Gruneberg
single word. And I do not think that any single person here has told Gella
that she is wrong or not entitled to think anyway she does. As Ellen
pointed out, she has spoken up for people's rights already recently. And
the whole reason I've kept my mouth shut is that I didn't feel like
dealing with the criticism my opinion would likely generate.
Now I do.
I'm sorry... don't criticize?! You know, I could say something as simple
as "Will Smith is the greatest musician who ever walked the face of the
earth, and we should all bow to him and bask in his glory". (I wouldn't,
but I could.) And you know what? You would be totally justified in
criticizing that statement. Now, why might that be? Simply put, it's
because I chose to express it in the most public of places. As long as the
thought remained in my head no one could criticize it or offer a counter
opinion. As soon as I let that thought out, I have to be prepared that
others may not share the same love of Will Smith that I do.
The important thing to remember here is that it is the *opinion* being
criticized, not the person. If you were to say "Will Smith is totally not
the king of the world, in fact he sucks rocks and there is no way I am
bowing before him anytime soon" you would be criticizing my statement. If
you said "Veronica, you are a big dumb idiot for thinking the way you do
about Will Smith" that would eb a personal attack. BIG difference.
Seems to me all the reactionary posts from those who disagree with the
original two posts were essentiall commenting something along the lines of
"I think it is unfair to have expectations with regard to receiving
personal attention after a show." Emphasis on the expectation part. No
where have I read "<insert name here> you are a big dumb idiot to feel the
way you do." If that is the way an individual chooses to interpret the
criticism of the opinion, that is, quite frankly, their own damn fault. I
am sorry that there are hurt feelings, and people thinking that they will
not longer read or post here or anywhere else, or that they cannot be open
and honest. I truly am. That sucks. I've lived with people who told me all
the time that I was an idiot for thinking the way I did. Never felt so
isolated in my entire life. That was unfair. But since then I've had
*many* people criticize my ideas. And you know, it's the only way to
really and truly grow as a person...
I think I've made my point here. Feel free to criticize the *idea* if you
happen to disagree.
:) Veronica (woo! Am I ever long winded today - what's going on?!)
--
***************************************************************************
"On the sixth day, God created | Veronica Gruneberg
the platypus. And God said: let's | Dept. of Biology
see the evolutionists try to figure | Queen's University
this one out!!" | Kingston, Ontario
Lori Martin
> chad schrock wrote:
> > "Chris K @*_*@" wrote:
> > > "A.J. LoCicero" wrote:
> > >
> > > *snip*
> > >
> > > > Jian, I'll expect you for dinner on Sept. 3. Put it in
> > > > your date book right now!!!
> > >
> > > *checks calendar* AJ, are you blowing me off for dinner on
> > > September 3rd now? PPPFFFFBBBTTT!!! :p
> >
> > With you?!?!?!?!
> >
> > AJ, I blew off dinner with Murray to have dinner with you
> on the 3rd!
>
> > You'd better pick who you want to have dinner with![1]
>
> Wait a minute, mister!!! Let me get this straight - I'm blowing
off a
> dinner with Dave-O to have dinner with AJ. However chad is
cancelling a
> dinner with Murray to have dinner with AJ and AJ is cancelling
a dinner
> with Jian to have a dinner with which one of us?
Well I'm just serving notice now that I'm blowing off dinner with
ALL of you, and Donna too, for a quiet evening of dinner and
Wu-Tang with Murray. Everyone else might be fickle -- but *I*
know opportunity when I see it.
-- Lori
counting on Murr to cut up the veggies.
A.J. LoCicero
>
> Maggie Said:
> <<Gella's not going to post, and probably
> not going to read.>>
>
> So I'm not the only one who picked this up?
> Gella said a few posts back that she was leaving the newsgroup. I think it's
> really sad when someone has to avoid something or other to be happy. And here
> you all are, still bashing away at her and her beliefs.
See Ellen's post about the dynamics of newsgroups. Threads trickle in
for days do to lag.
> So what if Jian doesn't consider Gella a friend and Gella considers him one?
> So what if she said something that you found the need to criticize? She's
> leaving in a month or so and decided to share her happy feelings of her last
> concert. You picked out the one negative thing and all rampage on it. I'm sure
> that made her feel so much better.
That is NOT what happened at all. Some people criticized very narrowly
the idea that a band member might owe someone the time of day. This
became translated in some people's heads into an attack on Gella for
sharing or on Gella for daring to love fruvous or whatever. It was
never any of those things. Frankly it seems to me more that it is the
people rushing to Gella's "Defense" (not that she really needs one since
she wasn't nearly as attacked as you are insinuating) who are taking
things out of context and focusing on one little point.
> And if someone's
> LEAVING in a month, don't criticize her! Gella's probably feeling awful right
> now because people on the newsgroup, people that she's formed bonds with, have
> suddenly turned against her.
Oh come on! Gella hardly knows most of us. We arn't her best friends
by a long shot, never the less I think most of us actually ARE
sympathetic to her. We were commenting on a particular notion and not
even necessarily pointing fingers at Gella. Personally I wish I knew
Gella better she seems to be sweet and smart and thoughtful. I know I'm
not the only one that feels that way. However to think that nobody on
the NG should criticize anything Gella has said because she's leaving in
a month for a wonderful trip to Europe (not prison as you make it sound)
just strikes me as ridiculous. Criticizing something does not make me a
meanine and it doesn't make me insensitive to Gella's feelings. I am
neither of those things, and neither are the other people who post
here.
> When I read that first post from Gella, I suddenly felt sympathetic. I
> guess, to me, it would be like me wanting to talk to my favourite teacher about
> something and having him blowing me off. I mean, I might consider this teacher
> a friend, but he might just consider me just another one of his students. That
> doesn't mean that I can't feel sorry for myself. And that doesn't mean I don't
> have the right to share my feelings with others.
No it doesn't, but it also doesn't mean that you get to do so without
any chance that someone might come along and say "get a life he's only
your teacher!"
> People are saying Gella was out of line for thinking that. Well I say that
> she's not out of line for thinking anything.
Nobody said that Gella was out of line for thinking anything. People
mostly didn't even address the majority of Gella's post. What was said
was a general notion that it is unhealthy to expect too much from band
members, since they don't really owe one anything.
> I think people were out of line by
> going out of their way to break Gella's little one-moment-of-happiness-left
> bubble. She's leaving in a month. She won't get to see Früvous again for
> another year. Put yourself in her shoes, okay?
Ok I'm sorry, I really really want to be ultra-sympathetic here, but the
above is just so ridiculously melodramatic I just can't No reflection
on Gella's actual feelings here at all, but your statement above is just
asking to be paired with violins playing soulfully in a minor key!
Gella deserves respect, sympathy, friendship etc. However to insinuate
that people here are twirling their collective mustaches while they plot
to destroy Poor Little Gella's "one-moment-of-(true)-happiness-left"
before she goes off to become a prisoner in... Spain was it? is just...
well... Laughable. Excuse me... ahahhahahhahahah!
> I just want people here to respect each other and each other's feelings. I
> just read something a few posts earlier about how no Fruhead this one person
> ever met was an "asshole". It'd be nice if we could keep it that way.
Ok, first of all, that is bullshit. There are certainly fruheads who
are assholes, and I rather think we all know some of them. Fruheads do
TEND to be remarkable fun people, but there are no guarantees. As for
respecting others feelings I think we generally all do, but let's not
confuse that with not stating our opinions just in order to protect
fragile egos. That just ain't gonna happen on a newsgroup.
Lovingly (fer real),
A.J.
Donna Hunt
Lori Martin wrote:
> Well I'm just serving notice now that I'm blowing off dinner with
> ALL of you, and Donna too,
OK, um... why don't I get to be part of the aggregate, here? Why are you
specifically blowing *me* off?
*sniff*
>for a quiet evening of dinner and Wu-Tang with Murray.
Well, start practicin', baby. That man is brutal.
/me laughs
ciao,
donna
Sugar...@aol.com
guess, to me, it would be like me wanting to talk to my favourite teacher
about
something and having him blowing me off. I mean, I might consider this teacher
a friend, but he might just consider me just another one of his students. That
doesn't mean that I can't feel sorry for myself. And that doesn't mean I don't
have the right to share my feelings with others.
going out of their way to break Gella's little one-moment-of-happiness-left
bubble. She's leaving in a month. She won't get to see Früvous again for
another year.>>
No offense, and I'm not trying to start yet another fight here, but it seems
like you missed the main point of Gella's post too. You also picked up on the
littlest fragment -the blown off by Jian part - when through the whole thing
she was mostly trying to tell us about how she's worried that her obsession
is unhealthy. And somewhere in there said she's somewhat anticipating having
to do without them for so long, to see how things work out and what happens
and how she feels about it. I'm not saying that anyone should try to go out
of their way to burst her happiness bubble or whatever, but I just don't
understand why all of this is STILL going on and getting posted about. Her
main point wasn't that she was getting blown off and felt slighted. Sally's
post wasn't how she felt she didn't get something she deserved, even if it
might have seemed that way at first. Can we drop this already? Or at least
focus on seeing if there's anything we can do for Gella before she leaves.
-------------> Ln
Shilfiell
<ellenN...@fruhead.com.invalid> wrote:
> actually, the feeling of being blown off implies that you
> expected something different. she didn't say she was sad that
> jian hadn't had time to stay and talk to her. she said he'd
> blown her off. also, reacting with a "hmph" (as sally did)
> implies that something different was expected.
I don't know if I've ever seen anyone write out the word "hmph" and
mean it seriously. I generally take it as tongue-in-cheek when I see
it online. It's always been difficult to figure out the true meaning
of text messages without the visual cues: that's why it's important to
think before you post, or react to something posted.
>
> but the real issue here is that neither of these reactions were
> really fair to jian and thus shouldn't have been discussed
> online in front of thousands of people.
Likewise, the reaction to Gella. When it comes down to defending the
honor of a bandmember vs. defending someone who's nice to me WITHOUT me
buying their product, well, I'll side with the non-pro nice guy every
time unless they're blatantly wrong.
-kimberly
-mostly harmless
fruvy
>I don't know if I've ever seen anyone write out the word "hmph"
>and mean it seriously. I generally take it as tongue-in-cheek
>when I see it online.
heehee, thanks Kimberly....That's exactly how I wanted it to be
taken ;) I mean, there are a million *other* four letter words
I could've typed in the place of that "hmph" had I really been
upset.
I wasn't angry so I spared you all the vulgarities...If I was
really incensed about something that happened over a month ago,
what sense would it make to take it up with a bunch of people
who really can't do anything about it? It was all just to show
Gella some sympathy. I'm glad this seems to be simmering down
now and that shortly we can return to our regularly scheduled
banter.
retreating with tongue-in-cheek,
sally :)
Chris K @*_*@
*snip*
> Ellen wrote:
> >
> > you shouldn't have to feel eternally grateful for any scrap of
> > attention a band member gives you, because you shouldn't be
> > needing it that much. do you see that?
>
> why not? are people not allowed to take pleasure
> and find comfort in the
> things they enjoy? can someone not feel eternally
> grateful for something that
> someone did above and beyond the call of duty?
Paying attention to you at a show is not something that is above and
beyond the call of duty? Giving someone a ride home because their car
was stolen at a Fruvous show and stranded without any means of
transportation and the people who are giving you the ride, live out of
the way than the way you were originally travelling, is above and beyond
the call of duty.[1] Having a band member say "Hey <insert some name
here>, how are you doing?" doesn't qualify as that.
> > and you shouldn't be expecting it, either. it's not fair to the
> > band you love so dearly to expect that kind of devotion from
> > them.
>
> and I don't think anyone is expecting it. read Gella's post
> carefully and see
> that she, herself, thinks it's an unhealthy obsession.
> she freely admits that
> she relies on Früvous too heavily - not necessarily
> the guys personally, but
> the band, the shows, and the experiences, good or bad.
*snipped a comment that I found unnecessary in the original post*
> she's recounting her memory of meeting the guys at the
> show, not complaining
> that Jian didn't give her the time of day. what he did was
> "part of the experience."
Why is it that Fruvous is the only concert where people seem to focus on
the "experience" of the show? Isn't seeing them perform enough for you?
What if the band doesn't come out afterwards? Does that make the show
worse? At my first show, I had no clue to stay afterwards to get my CDs
signed or talk to the band etc. I went to the show, had a great time and
left after the encore when the lights came up. The next time a show was
close by, I wanted to go. If I never met the band at all after any of
the shows, it wouldn't make any difference to me because I saw them
perform. That's what I was originally there for. (until the Fruheads I
wanted to see became more important than seeing the band, but that's
different post.)
It's a nice touch for them to do that - but you shouldn't expect it
after every show. Is that the only thing you look for in a show? I
laugh and/or cringe when the same people seem to chase (and yes, please
take that term literally) after the band at every show they attend to
talk to them or I hear people say frequently that "He was so surprised
to see me at the show!!!" On the part of the band, that meet and greet
thing must get tiring all the time. :\
*slight snip*
> > and if this criticism is enough to stop you from posting here,
> > then perhaps it's better that you do, at least for a while.
> > until you get some perspective.
>
> excuse me, but that is just way out of line.
> condescending and rude, telling
> someone to "get some perspective." I think you owe Gella an apology.
No she doesn't. Ellen hit the nail right on the head. She's saying
"Maybe you just better stop, take a step back and start thinking exactly
what you're doing." In no way does that look to be rude and/or
condescending - it's "telling it like it is." Some people can't take a
hint, so you have to spell it out for them.
Why would you post your innermost thoughts on a public forum that is
seen by thousands of people who have no clue who you are and don't
really care? Isn't that what "diaryland.com"[2] is for?
Christine.
[1] Yes, a car was stolen at a Fruvous show in 1998 and no, not one of
the band members offered a ride. Hmmm...how *rude* is that?!
[2] I almost typed "dairyland.com" but that would be a totally different
forum. ;)
Lori Martin
> Lori Martin wrote:
> > Well I'm just serving notice now that I'm blowing off dinner
with
> > ALL of you, and Donna too,
> OK, um... why don't I get to be part of the aggregate, here?
Why are you
> specifically blowing *me* off?
Because you're something new and special in this fast-growing
dining-out-with-someone-on-Sept.-3 fragment of The AMMF Community
(tm) (or non-community) (hey, I can never make up my mind).
You required a Special Mention, see?
> *sniff*
Not to sniffle, darling. We'll do brunch!
> >for a quiet evening of dinner and Wu-Tang with Murray.
> Well, start practicin', baby. That man is brutal.
Yeah, he is. Being God just isn't a job for wimps.
-- Lori
lawrence solomon
> Paying attention to you at a show is not something that is above and
> beyond the call of duty? Giving someone a ride home because their car
> was stolen at a Fruvous show and stranded without any means of
> transportation and the people who are giving you the ride, live out of
> the way than the way you were originally travelling, is above and beyond
> the call of duty.[1] Having a band member say "Hey <insert some name
> here>, how are you doing?" doesn't qualify as that.
anything beyond performing is above and beyond the call of duty, really. they
get paid to go there, put on a show, and then they can do whatever they want.
so if they hang out, it's a bonus. if they talk to *you*, specifically, it's
even more of a bonus for you. they're making an effort they don't have to
make.
> Why is it that Fruvous is the only concert where people seem to focus on
> the "experience" of the show? Isn't seeing them perform enough for you?
> What if the band doesn't come out afterwards? Does that make the show
> worse? At my first show, I had no clue to stay afterwards to get my CDs
> signed or talk to the band etc. I went to the show, had a great time and
> left after the encore when the lights came up. The next time a show was
> close by, I wanted to go. If I never met the band at all after any of
> the shows, it wouldn't make any difference to me because I saw them
> perform. That's what I was originally there for. (until the Fruheads I
> wanted to see became more important than seeing the band, but that's
> different post.)
it's not. everything that happens is part of someone's memory. and that's
all that was being posted - someone's memory of a show, saying they'll miss
all that. the experience of going to a show. if, for you, that's just seeing
the show, fine. But don't deny others what they include. That's just
selfish.
> It's a nice touch for them to do that - but you shouldn't expect it
> after every show. Is that the only thing you look for in a show? I
> laugh and/or cringe when the same people seem to chase (and yes, please
> take that term literally) after the band at every show they attend to
> talk to them or I hear people say frequently that "He was so surprised
> to see me at the show!!!" On the part of the band, that meet and greet
> thing must get tiring all the time. :\
see, this is where newsgroups and mailing lists get into trouble. when people
start responding to things that no one said. everyone here has, so far,
agreed that this behaviour is not to be expected of them, but is cool when it
happens. so I have no idea what you're responding to here, other than maybe
to just rant about something you don't like.
> Why would you post your innermost thoughts on a public forum that is
> seen by thousands of people who have no clue who you are and don't
> really care? Isn't that what "diaryland.com"[2] is for?
why not? some people are very open about their lives. if you don't like it,
you can ignore it.
lawrence solomon
> actually, the feeling of being blown off implies that you
> expected something different. she didn't say she was sad that
> jian hadn't had time to stay and talk to her. she said he'd
> blown her off.
and, after reading the account of the event, I'm inclined to agree that she
was blown off. if you're having a conversation with someone, it's rude to
abandon it, no matter who you are.
> read the actual words, lawrence. eternally grateful. moxy
> fruvous did not pull anyone from the path of a speeding car. or
> drag them from the depths of despair. this is a band we're
> talking about. they bring a little joy into all of our lives,
> or we wouldn't be here. but perspective! this is where
> perspective comes in. expecting the band to be the sole light-
> at-the-end-of-your-daily-tunnel is just unfair to them.
no one said it was anyone's *sole* light-at-the-end-of-their-daily-tunnel.
they bring more joy into some people's lives than others. not to mention that
there's more than just a band going on here. there *is* a community. I've
become close friends with more people in the past 2 years than I have in the
entire first 21 years of my life. And for *that*, I am eternally grateful.
> exactly. that's the feeling that a bunch of people got-- all the
> criticism stemmed from that feeling. what do you call "relies
> on fruvous a little too heavily" if not "expects" something from
> the experience?
one can always expect certain abstract things, like enjoyment. I expect to
enjoy every Früvous show I attend - and I do enjoy them, albeit in different
ways each time. Sometimes it's because they played a song I liked, or because
they did a funny improv, or because they chatted with me after the show. But
I don't know, going in, what they're going to do that will live up to that
expectation of enjoyment, nor do I count on anything specific.
> if you leave a show disappointed, then is it not true that you
> expected something different? and truthfully, do we as fans have
> any right to be disappointed in much beyond the quality of the
> performance? [1]
no, it's not true. I'm disappointed that no one dropped $5 million on my desk
this morning... not that I expected it to happen, but it would have been
pretty cool. so I can see how someone can be disappointed that they didn't
get to talk to the band members.
> bottom line, folks: this is a newsgroup read by thousands of
> people around the world. do not post anything that you don't
> want to hear thousands of peoples' opinions on.
and I didn't see anyone posting something they didn't want people's opinions
on. Gella got opinions on things she didn't even say.
> part of the reason you think you're being attacked when this
> happens is the way that the responses just keep on coming. it's
> not because people want to dogpile on you. it's because there
well, I've looked back at the structure of this thread and the posts referred
to by others and it's pretty clear that everyone knew about all the other
messages posted before posting their own.
--
lawrence solomon * http://www.fruhead.com/users/zaph * za...@fruhead.com
"And I don't know whether I believe in me,
but I still believe in my friends." -The Nields
chad schrock
Donna Hunt wrote:
> "Chris K @*_*@" wrote:
>
> > Wait a minute, mister!!! Let me get this straight - I'm
> > blowing off a dinner with Dave-O to have dinner with AJ.
> > However chad is cancelling a dinner with Murray to have
> > dinner with AJ and AJ is cancelling a dinner with Jian
> > to have a dinner with which one of us?
>
> Dammit, chad! Stop being such a whore! You *know* we
> were supposed to have dinner on the 3rd! Metrojet? Hello?
The 3rd of October!
Check your datebook, dear.
> Damn You to Heck.
Is that the best you can do? spuh, that's nothing.
> Fine, blow me off. [1] I'll survive. Chrissy is strong...
well, she has to hold up Jian.
chad
--
chad at radix dot net
Donna Hunt
chad schrock wrote:
> > Dammit, chad! Stop being such a whore! You *know* we
> > were supposed to have dinner on the 3rd! Metrojet? Hello?
>
> The 3rd of October!
>
> Check your datebook, dear.
Oh! Right. Right. Sorry. Excuse me. Pardon me. Sorry.
[I just want to see how many times I can call you a whore on the ng]
And at least I know that only Lori is blowing me off now.
> > Damn You to Heck.
>
> Is that the best you can do? spuh, that's nothing.
Huh. Don't tempt me, schrock. I'm meaner than I look. Grrr.
ciao,
donna
See you on 10/3/00!
Chris K @*_*@
> Paying attention to you at a show is not something that is above and
> beyond the call of duty? Giving someone a ride home because their car
> was stolen at a Fruvous show and stranded without any means of
> transportation and the people who are giving you the ride, live out of
> the way than the way you were originally travelling,
> is above and beyond
> the call of duty.[1] Having a band member say "Hey <insert some name
> here>, how are you doing?" doesn't qualify as that.
If you could, please scroll up and subtract the "?" after the first
sentence. It should be a statement and not a question. I forgot to edit
that part out. Sorry for the inconvenience (and I'm sure I caused some
for someone out there.)
Christine.
Donna Hunt
Lori Martin wrote:
>> Why are you specifically blowing *me* off?
>
> Because you're something new and special in this fast-growing
> dining-out-with-someone-on-Sept.-3 fragment of The AMMF Community
> (tm) (or non-community) (hey, I can never make up my mind).
> You required a Special Mention, see?
So help me, Lori, if you send me a "Welcome to AMMF" message. I just don't know
what will happen.
> Not to sniffle, darling. We'll do brunch!
Ok... am I cooking? If so, get your menu (and kitchen!) prepared. :)
I seem to be available, after consulting my datebook.
ciao,
donna
chad schrock
"A.J. LoCicero" wrote:
> chad schrock wrote:
> > Maggie wrote:
> >
> > > that has turned this tiny thread into what it's become. Gella
> > > was posting something that was sharing something EXTREMELY
> > > personal with this community here on ammf. and what happens?
> >
> > This is NOT a community. This is a newsgroup. This is a
> > newsgroup populated by a large number of people that post a
> > lot and an even larger number of people that just read (lurk).
> >
> > True, this newsgroup is "nicer" than many other newsgroups
> > out there, but that does not make us a "community." A
> > "community" is that collection of people and buildings on
> > the other side of your door or window.
>
> I have to take issue with you there chad. I think this newsgroup
> (along with the group of people it is a forum for) IS a community.
Yes, upon further thought, yes this is a type of community.
However, it is unhealthy (IMO) to treat this newsgroup as a
collection of your closest friends to share everything with.
> True, it is a much larger and more diverse one than it was when
> we started throwing that word around five years ago, but it
> still IS a community. We share some common interests and we
> have at least a general idea of who each other (lurkers
> excluded) are.
Which is true. (I'm not sure that the 'common interests' make the
community, but I don't truely know what would make a 'community'.)
> The essence of what you are saying (That someone posting here
> should expect that people may take issue with what they have
> said) is valid IMHO, but nevertheless I do not think that it is
> inappropriate for someone to discuss any aspect of fruvous
> fandom here, including the difficulties of discovering obsession.
> Or the feelings one has when one sees a show etc.
While I agree with you, I general, I don't think that everything
needs to be shared; especially "extremely" personal details.
(I guess what I'm saying is that, as with most everything,
moderation is key.)
> > > c'mon people, let's try a little kindness and support here.
> > <snark> This is also not a support group. </snark>
> Yes it is.
I don't see "alt.support" in the newsgroup header anywhere...
(As someone else said, the Internet is a [bad] place to find
support on or from.)
> It was designed as a forum for fans to share information
> and thereby HELP each other.
Help each other with getting to shows or crash space; sharing
opinions about a show|song|lyric|album, etc.
I do not think that this forum is here for people to help each
other with more personal issues. Those are better handled by
close friends or (better still) professionals.
> If you don't want to help you don't have to, but you shouldn't
> criticize others for doing so.
Even if they are giving bad or unhelpful advice?
off posing for Richard...
chad :)
Ellen
>Likewise, the reaction to Gella. When it comes down to
defending the
>honor of a bandmember vs. defending someone who's nice to me
WITHOUT me
>buying their product, well, I'll side with the non-pro nice guy
every
>time unless they're blatantly wrong.
the next time jian posts something about his personal thoughts on
amm-f, i'll remember that.
peace,
el
Chris K @*_*@
*snip*
> it's not. everything that happens is part of someone's memory.
> and that's
> all that was being posted - someone's memory of a show, saying
> they'll miss all that. the experience of going to a show.
> if, for you, that's just seeing
> the show, fine. But don't deny others what they include.
> That's just selfish.
It's not selfish to say that people should be careful about what they
post about a band member (who is in the public eye) on their NG and
something that may involve their personal life outside of the venue.
Common Sense isn't all that common, is it?
It looks bad on their part if they post something like, "Like OHMIGOD! I
saw <insert cool band member here> eating dinner at <insert restaurant
in the city of the venue> next to the venue and like I didn't know if I
should go up to him and say hi! 'cuz like I really didn't know what to
say..." They are human, and everyone knows they have to eat. Did this
happen during the show? Nope. Not relevant then.
*Just to alert you - this might be OFF TOPIC TO YOUR POST - SCROLL DOWN
IF IT IS*
I think many people would like to see one post in here that's a "review"
of the show when people would remember the cool banter (sometimes almost
word for word) and describe their 'experience' of the show in such a way
that you thought you were there if you couldn't make it to the show.
Some reading now may remember those posts and those reviews (which are
now posted on FDC.) What we have now is: "this is how i got to the
show, here is the setlist cuz I snagged it before they came out before
the first encore <insert setlist>, it was cool, Jian remembered my name
and I was like so stunned and I can't wait for my next show. <sign
name>." Experience of the show? Not even close - seeing who can post
the setlist first is the review today. 'Experience' of the show seemed
to evolve from "What great banter was last night - and here is a list of
it <after every song that was played>" to "<insert band member's name>
Didn't even give me the time when I asked him last night at the show."
> see, this is where newsgroups and mailing lists get into trouble.
> when people
> start responding to things that no one said. everyone here has,
> so far, agreed that this behaviour is not to be expected of them,
> but is cool when it
> happens. so I have no idea what you're responding to here,
> other than maybe
> to just rant about something you don't like.
Hmmm...I was posting something that consisted of *my* show experience.
Sorry I didn't label it "my show experience" for your convenience.
So now, "rant" = "my show experience?" Then this thread has successfully
moved in a circle. We're back to the point of the original post.
> > Why would you post your innermost thoughts on a public forum that is
> > seen by thousands of people who have no clue who you are and don't
> > really care? Isn't that what "diaryland.com"[2] is for?
>
> why not? some people are very open about their lives.
> if you don't like it, you can ignore it.
Being open can be construed as TMI. I'm wondering - why you didn't
mark
this thread "read" if you didn't like the posts that followed to begin
with.
fruvy
<the next time jian posts something about his personal thoughts
<on amm-f, i'll remember that.
That's what he has the Ji-spot for, and as many of us can attest
to, recently we've had outbreaks like this on there too and it's
been quite lovely ;)
*sally*
Donna Hunt
Lori Martin wrote:
> so we don't get all pissed at you for asking "who's this Jean guy who
> disappeared?".
Whew. I was just going to ask that, too.
>and Murray's divinity,
I dunno, Lori. You may have to explain this one to me again.
>but not about music (we hate that.)
Good. Me, too.
>Make sure you call chad a whore at least once weekly.
Done.
> Kitchen's ready. Menu's up to you (except for the tabbouleh).
Um... does this mean the Tabouli is required? Or requested NOT to be served?
> Yay! Brunch with Donnagirl, dinner with Murray ... what day of the week >IS Sept 3, anyway?
Sunday. And it's The Donnagirl to you. (Welcoming me to the ng, indeed.)
You'd better be free, woman! You don't want both of us pissed at you. Inigo's
talons are long this time of year. ;)
I'll get you, my pretty...
Is anybody else having trouble with congestion these days? chad?
ciao,
donna
Wildcat
Donna Hunt wrote:
>
> "Chris K @*_*@" wrote:
>
> > Wait a minute, mister!!! Let me get this straight - I'm blowing off a
> > dinner with Dave-O to have dinner with AJ. However chad is cancelling a
> > dinner with Murray to have dinner with AJ and AJ is cancelling a dinner
> > with Jian to have a dinner with which one of us?
>
> Dammit, chad! Stop being such a whore! You *know* we were supposed to have
> dinner on the 3rd! Metrojet? Hello? Damn You to Heck.
>
> Fine, blow me off. [1] I'll survive. Chrissy is strong... But who will be
> next?!?
>
> bitterly,
> donna
>
> [1] In the *American* sense, Richard.
MJ
> <<Sure, other more mainstream bands don't do this kind of stuff, so why
> should we expect this much from Fruvous? Well, after spending $120-ish on
> them, maybe we should. But we (and the performers) don't; those are the
> facts.>>
>
> Huh? ... If you're saying after spending $120-ish on a band... [that] they
> should probably be more Fruvous-like, I disagree.... a band with a lot of fans
> would have
> a really hard time hanging around after a show... because there *are* so many
> fans...the only responsibility they [the band] has to you is to... put on that
> concert that
> you paid for.
>
> ------------> Ln
Well, actually, I meant it in a broader way, I guess, on the aspects of
"celebrity." For example, a lot of Hollywood actors and actresses complain about
their lack of privacy today, but personally, I don't think there's anything
unfair about it unless they put someone's life at risk-- I personally think that
when someone's out to make it big with a huge multi-million dollar salary, they
know that the paparazzi is included in the deal. *shrug*. And another point
would be that without all us drooling fans, they wouldn't get all the moolah that
they do. Honestly, do you think it's fair that our celebrities earn *so much
more* than the average worker who will probably make a larger contribution to
society in the long run?
Of course, most music artists today aren't multimillionaires, regardless of how
long they've stayed on that Top 40 chart. But again, as I said in my previous
post, I'm sort of on both sides of the line in terms of feeling entitled to
something more than just a show, perhaps. I'm not saying that I'm justified or
anything on feeling this way, I just do (before I get a bunch of posts on how
it's unfair to the performers to expect that much of them, blah, blah, blah).
Just because there are a lot of fans, doesn't mean it's impossible to do some
form of interaction with them. There's always autograph lines, and the like;
it's really simply going out of your way for your fans. It may be a logistical
nightmare to the bands' agents/security, but it's sure not impossible.
OK, I'm not coherent again... I gotta stop posting at 12am. *sigh*
~MJ
MoxyMonkey
I probably am going to tick alot of people off by adding another message to
this thread.
The way I feel about this entire situation is that it is just who Jian is. The
past two festivals I have gone to see the boys at , Ive gotten the same
response. Though all four members know me pretty well, it always seems that
Jian is always the one who something...hmmmmm....off color.....to say. But Ive
not taken it to heart, nor should anything they do be taken *that* seriously.
Jian, Mike, Dave, and Murray live the life of the road for long streaches at a
time. For them to come out after the show, or do a signing should not be seen
as an obligation on their part.
Take what happens in stride. They are doing a damn good job of trying to
please as many people ahey can.
jim
Chad Maloney
Wildcat wrote:
>
> unsubscribe please
I think the wildcat is talking to you, Richard. Unsubscribe now please.
Your utter wrongness in the Determinism vs Free Will debate has made
you a marked man and even people I've never heard of are asking for
your "resignation".
Give it up, Brit. It's only going to get uglier from here on out. And
I mean UGLY. Not some sort of faux-ugly where people can't handle
rational discussion. I mean *really* ug-ly.
- Chad
fruvy
>The way I feel about this entire situation is that it is just
>who Jian is.
someone else said it and you said it too, love him or leave him,
that's just who Jian is. It's happened before and it'll
probably happen again but no one is really pissed off cause
there's nothing we can do about it and it makes the band that
much more unique and lovable ;)
is the bloodshed over now?
heehee.....
Sugar...@aol.com
their lack of privacy today, but...I don't think there's anything
unfair about it unless they put someone's life at risk...when someone's out
to make it big...they know that the paparazzi is included in the deal.>>
Yeah. And I think a lot of them are pretty good about it. If they weren't,
interest in them probably wouldn't last long.
<<And another point would be that without all us drooling fans, they wouldn't
get all the moolah that they do. >>
Exactly. And when a big band, say ::shudder:: N sync decides to give a lucky
winner backstage passes and the chance to hang out after the concert or
something it increases the interest in the particular concert. Some girl
probably was happy that she got free tickets -- after the band heard she
spent $1000 on some auction for supposedly a plate of Justin's left over
French toast. (My cousin is a fan..I hear these things. Whether they're true
or not... ::shrug::)
<<Honestly, do you think it's fair that our celebrities earn *so much more*
than the average worker who will probably make a larger contribution to
society in the long run?>>
No. Talk to me on my stance of salaries of professional athletes too. But I
guess it's all relative.
<<I'm sort of on both sides of the line in terms of feeling entitled to
something more than just a show, perhaps...There's always autograph lines,
and the like; it's really simply going out of your way for your fans. It may
be a logistical nightmare to the bands' agents/security, but it's sure not
impossible.>>
True, true. But just for the fact that there are *so* many more fans for a
known band/actor etc. that it would be pretty hard on anyone to try to do fan
meeting after a show. Just because of tiredness, hunger, and whatnot. Still,
there are plenty of other times *besides* after a show if it's that much of a
problem. My dad likes to tell me stories about how John Wayne always signed
autographs and didn't leave until every last person had their autograph or
whatever, no matter how many people were in line. Interesting. But I never
met John Wayne, so I guess I'll have to take his word for it. Who
knows..there are many sides to all these issues.
-------------> Ln
chad schrock
Lori Martin wrote:
> chad, posting on-topic which astonishes me, said:
Hey, I post on-topic occasionally. I save all of the on-topicness
up for the occasional blow-out of topicness.
But that's all I have to say on this topic anymore.
--
chad at radix dot net
Lynne
comment...maybe humourous... ya know.. like "so what else is new"?
-----
"...all I can think of is...Jian's semi blowing me off because he was
with a woman..."
Lynne
and thoughts and opinions are just that. but....
>From: Ellen <ellenN...@fruhead.com.invalid>
>actually, the feeling of being blown off implies that you
>expected something different. she didn't say she was sad that
IMPLIES... hmmm, not very definative.
>but the real issue here is that neither of these reactions were
>really fair to jian and thus shouldn't have been discussed
>online in front of thousands of people.
I think only Jian can judge what's fair to him, and if we can discuss his
deodorant and he can laugh about htat.... I dunno... who's to lay down the
laws as to "what we can and can't post related to <insert band member
here>"
>>I don't see what's so terrible about that.
>and no one ever said it was terrible. just inappropriate.
sounds like opinion to me...
>read the actual words, lawrence. eternally grateful. moxy
>fruvous did not pull anyone from the path of a speeding car. or
>drag them from the depths of despair. this is a band we're
>talking about. they bring a little joy into all of our lives,
>or we wouldn't be here. but perspective! this is where
>perspective comes in. expecting the band to be the sole light-
>at-the-end-of-your-daily-tunnel is just unfair to them.
Who other than Gella knows exactly what the relationship is? See.. I
wonder why people get so frustrated with this.... is it that impossible
that someone could have a close relationship with a band member and post
about it here?
but it's not, really. it's the implications of that phrase.
implications or interpretations?
ok.. I could go on... but I don't have the energy....
wildbill
talking about anyone in particular, I am just very sick of this
thread and yet, I can't stop replying to it.. kind of like a car
wreck.. you know you shouldn't stare but you do anyways.
>IMPLIES... hmmm, not very definative.
Since we're going on perspective, opinion, I would have to wager
that blown-off has connotions beyond "oh he left me to talk to
someone else". But that is just my opinion.
>I think only Jian can judge what's fair to him, and if we can
>discuss his deodorant and he can laugh about htat.... I dunno...
>who's to lay down the laws as to "what we can and can't post
>related to <insert band member here>"
People should post whatever the hell they want:
Nobody is saying that you can't post whatever the hell you want
here. You can post that you think "Jian stinks" or that X member
of the band is a jerk. Just be prepared for the aftermath.
Personally, I'm very tired of fluffy posts about deoderant and
sexual orientation, but that is just me.
As for fairness, there are MANY instances where common sense [1]
points you to the conclusion of not being fair. This only Jian
can tell what's fair for Jian is BS. If I said to XXX (lets say
for the sake of argument, you) that my only reason for living was
because of the band, I am sure it wouldn't take a poll of the
band members to come to the conclusion that I was being unfair to
the band and its members.
>sounds like opinion to me...
everything is opinion, there are very few facts on this planet
(water is wet, sky is blue and satan claus is out there).
>Who other than Gella knows exactly what the relationship is?
>See.. I wonder why people get so frustrated with this.... is it
>that impossible that someone could have a close relationship
>with a band member and post about it here?
oh for god's sakes.. perspective.. thats all people have been
talking about. Its possible to have a close relationship with a
band member, but I seriously doubt if you had a close
relationship with a band member you'd be posting about it here.
Second off, how do you define close relationship? Usually
relationship implies (note implies.. OPINION) that there is
something reciprocal (i.e. this is a mutual kind of thing). If I
had a close relationship with Jian, I would measure that I would
probably hang out with him on occasion, he would call me or send
me emails (i.e. we'd be friends in a context which is not
artist/fan). Now Jian and the band have blurred this line a bit,
but not seriously enough such that if you do not hang out with
the band members on a regular basis OUTSIDE of a show context,
that you can justify "close relationship". But that too is my
opinion on the subject.
Of course, if you define close relationship as, I have dreams
about the band, I see their shows, I get their music, I've talked
to them after shows AND I know what deodorant they wear, then I
think there are some people who then have a right to say they are
"close" by that definition and should by all means post away
about it (goto paragraph about people should post whatever the
hell they want).
>
>ok.. I could go on... but I don't have the energy....
>
Unfortunately I still have energy. I think a lot of people here
get kind of queasy when people throw around the terms "friends"
or "close relationship" because they do imply something which
when you apply perspective to the situations does not hold in
real life. If I were to say that I was friends with Jian infront
of the newsgroup, that implies a lot of things of which none are
true. Its also unhealthy in my estimation because at some point,
I will see that the reality is that I am not friends with Jian
and if I solidly believe in this fact it could be quite sobering.
blah blah blah.. I should quit before I really get going.
"wild" Bill
[1] common sense, least common of all senses but can usually be
brought about by a call from the clue phone or a swift smack on
the head with the clue by four.
A.J. LoCicero
Some stuff. No doubt interesting stuff, but unfortunately I've
forgotten what the hell this thread was really about anyway, so it is
kind of feels like reading Portuguese (which I don't) at this point.
A.J.
(Note the new email address!)
--
a...@locicero.org ICQ: 13117113 AIM: locicero
A.J. LoCicero
>
> Well, if we're going to wake up sleeping dogs.. note, I am not
> talking about anyone in particular, I am just very sick of this
> thread and yet, I can't stop replying to it.. kind of like a car
> wreck.. you know you shouldn't stare but you do anyways.
>
> >IMPLIES... hmmm, not very definative.
>
> Since we're going on perspective, opinion, I would have to wager
> that blown-off has connotions beyond "oh he left me to talk to
> someone else". But that is just my opinion.
>
> >I think only Jian can judge what's fair to him, and if we can
> >discuss his deodorant and he can laugh about htat.... I dunno...
> >who's to lay down the laws as to "what we can and can't post
> >related to <insert band member here>"
>
> People should post whatever the hell they want:
>
> Nobody is saying that you can't post whatever the hell you want
> here. You can post that you think "Jian stinks" or that X member
> of the band is a jerk. Just be prepared for the aftermath.
> Personally, I'm very tired of fluffy posts about deoderant and
> sexual orientation, but that is just me.
Tired?!? We haven't' had the ol' sexual orientation flame war in SOOOO
long. I miss it! Lets go:
Who thinks Jian is gay? Or is he a zoophile? (remember the sheep bit in
GEAH!) Is Mike a swinger? Does Dave-o only go for bald people? And
Murray... Heh, oh I just can't voice my suspicions about him in polite
company!
Quick frupoll: Who's had sex with the band (in whole or in part?)
A.J.
--
(Note the NEW email address!)
Tara Foss
Tired?!? We haven't' had the ol' sexual orientation flame war in SOOOO
long. I miss it! Lets go:
Who thinks Jian is gay? Or is he a zoophile? (remember the sheep bit in
GEAH!) Is Mike a swinger? Does Dave-o only go for bald people? And
Murray... Heh, oh I just can't voice my suspicions about him in polite
company!
Quick frupoll: Who's had sex with the band (in whole or in part?)
Does Mike swing, and if he does, how does one get on his swinging partner
list?
