Plagiarism
Andrew Shiue
Out of curiousity, how does Morrissey get away with blatant plagiarism?
-Andrew
PULPSTRESS
>Out of curiousity, how does Morrissey get away with blatant plagiarism?
such as????
"Pure easy listening, settle down
On the pillow soft when they've all gone home
You can concentrate on the ones you love
You can concentrate, hey, now they've gone"
Belle & Sebastian
Andrew Shiue
Refer to Morrissey's "soureces" at It May All End Tomorrow.
PULPSTRESS
care to quote some for someone such as myself who is merely a casual fan?
Maija
err.. is there a particular song with ripped lyrics or what are you
after?
(just enters my mind: if you must write prose'n'poems the words you use
should be your own, don't plagiarise or take on loan...)
--
Maija mai...@sci.fi http://www.sci.fi/~maijav ICQ #3048995
Goth.Code 3.1 GoHS5ZZ7 THSeG3 PSa! B3/21Bk!\@ cBk{Dbr}Z-w8 V6s
M3p2g ZGoMegIpb!! C6p a15(18) n7V b64 H174 g4A1297A mEa6Na1@Z5
w6T v3 r6 p3ZZ95Zz D63* h5 sF9SsYy k6! N0596NH RfsM*2 Lfi5
Stay naked. Eliminate the competition.
Andrew Shiue
>care to quote some for someone such as myself who is merely a casual fan?
These are some from IMAET.
"Cemetry Gates"
"All those people, all those lives, where are they now ? Here was a woman who
once lived and loved, full of the same passions, fears, jealousies, hates.
And what remains of it now ... I want to cry." "The Man Who Came To
Dinner", film
"You're the bee's knees, but so am I"
"I dreamt about you last night, and I fell out of bed twice."
both from the film adaptation of A Taste Of Honey by Shelagh Delaney
"Shoplifters...."
"My only weakness is ... well, never mind, never mind"
James Dean in "Kraft Mystery Hour : Danger !"
"Some Girls..."
Send me the pillow, the one that you dream on"
"Send me the pillow you dream on" - Johnny Tillotson
Movement
On 3 Feb 1998, PULPSTRESS wrote:
> care to quote some for someone such as myself who is merely a casual fan?
>
OK, here goes ...
ORIGINAL SOURCES FOR MORRISSEY'S LYRICS
------------------------------------------------------------------------
As most people know, Morrissey wasn't exactly above taking on loan a
few lyrics himself. This a list of some of Morrissey's sources;
originals sources are not necessarily accurate quotes. Some of these
are definitely "borrowed"; others are pure conjecture.
A Rush And A Push And The Land Is Ours
"A Rush, a charge from North, South, East and West [and] the land is
ours"
Speranza, Irish nationalist magazine around the turn of the
century
"A rush and a charge and the land is ours"
Traditional Irish battle cry
"...the ghost of Troubled Joe"
Probably a reference to the film Carry On Jack
Cemetry Gates
"All those people, all those lives, where are they now ? Here was a
woman who once lived and loved, full of the same passions, fears,
jealousies, hates. And what remains of it now ... I want to cry."
"The Man Who Came To Dinner", film
"The early village-cock hath twice done salutation to the morn"
Richard III, Shakespeare
Death At One's Elbow
Phrase from the Joe Orton Diaries
Hand In Glove
"...and everything depends on how near you sleep to me."
Take This Longing, by Leonard Cohen
The Hand That Rocks The Cradle
"The Hand that Rocks The Cradle", title of "Crib"-detective
series,1981
"Climb upon my knee, sonny boy..."
"Sonny Boy", Al Jolson
Heaven Knows I'm Miserable Now
"Heaven Knows I'm Missing Him Now", song by Sandie Shaw
Louder Than Bombs
"...louder than bombs or screams or the inside ticking of remorse..."
By Grand Central Station I Sat Down And Wept, by Elizabeth Smart
Paint A Vulgar Picture (and You Just Haven't Earned It Yet, Baby)
"You just haven't earned it yet, baby"
Geoff Travis
"Paint a vulgar picture"
Oscar Wilde
Pretty Girls Make Graves
"Nature played this trick on me"
The barber in the film "Victim"
"Pretty Girls Make Graves"
Big Sur / Dharma Bums - Jack Kerouac
The Queen Is Dead
"The Queen Is Dead"
Last Exit To Brooklyn, Hubert Selby Jnr
"Take Me Back To Dear Old Blighty..." is from the film The L
Shaped Room.
Reel Around The Fountain
"Take and mount me like a butterfly"
Exit Smiling - Morrissey (after From Reverence To Rape by
M.Haskell)
"You're the bee's knees, but so am I"
"I dreamt about you last night, and I fell out of bed twice."
both from the film adaptation of A Taste Of Honey by Shelagh
Delaney
Rubber Ring
"Everybody's Clever Nowadays"
The Importance Of Being Earnest, by Oscar Wilde
Rusholme Ruffians
"Fourteen Again"
The whole song is loosely based around this song by Victoria
Wood
Shakespeare's Sister
"Shakespeare's Sister"
An essay by Virginia Woolf
Sheila Take A Bow
"If the homework brings you down, then we'll throw it on the fire."
Kooks, David Bowie
Shoplifters Of The World Unite
"My only weakness is ... well, never mind, never mind"
James Dean in "Kraft Mystery Hour : Danger !"
Some Girls Are Bigger Than Others
"Send me the pillow, the one that you dream on"
"Send me the pillow you dream on" - Johnny Tillotson
Still Ill
"Society owes me a living"
Myra Hindley, 1977
Stop Me If You Think You've Heard This One Before
"Stop Me If You've Heard It"
Short story by Noel Coward.
Strangeways, Here We Come
"Borstal, here we come"
Billy Liar
Stretch Out And Wait
"Is there any point ever having children ?"
"Will the world end during the day or at night ?" "I don't know, I
don't know"
Rebel Without A Cause
Suffer Little Children
"Whatever Ian has done, I have done"
Myra Hindley
"Suffer the little children to come unto me"
Whispered when Myra walked past by inmates of Hindley's jail
(from
the bible; "suffer" is equivalent to "allow")
Sweet And Tender Hooligan
"In the midst of life we are in debt"
Peter Cook & Dudley Moore
"In the midst of life we are in death"
Coleridge (adapted by Cook and Moore for their sketch)
Also from The Burial Service in the Book of Common Prayer
That Joke Isn't Funny Anymore
"I've watched this happen in other people's lives and now it's
happened
in ours"
"Alice Adams"
These Things Take Time
"Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord..."
Battle Hymn of the American Republic, Julia Howe
"Our eyes have seen the glory ..."
Eamon de Valera, Irish Prime Minister
This Charming Man
"A jumped-up pantry boy who doesn't know his place"
From the film Sleuth starring Michael Caine
This Night Has Opened My Eyes
"You can't just wrap it up in a bundle of newspaper."
"...and dump it on a doorstep."
"That river, it's the colour of lead."
"I'm not sorry and I'm not glad."
"Oh well, the dream's gone, but the baby's real enough."
A Taste Of Honey, by Shelagh Delaney
Unloveable
"I wear black on the outside, because black is how I feel on the
inside."
Apparently from a Johnny Cash song. Anyone know which ?
Well I Wonder
"... do you hear me where you sleep ?"
By Grand Central Station I Sat Down And Wept, by Elizabeth Smart
What Difference Does It Make ?
"...the devil will make work for idle hands to do."
Beyond Belief, Emlyn Williams (after the bible)
"What difference does it make ?"
Terence Stamp, in the film The Collector which features on the
sleeve.
What She Said
"I have learned to smoke because I need something to hold on to."
"...I wonder why no one has noticed that I am dead and taken the
trouble to bury me"
By Grand Central Station I Sat Down And Wept, by Elizabeth Smart
William, It Was Really Nothing
The theme of this song is borrowed from "Billy Liar" by Keith
Waterhouse.
You've Got Everything Now
"...as merry as the day is long."
A Taste Of Honey, by Shelagh Delaney
Angel, Angel, Down We Go Together
Angel, Angel, Down We Go, 70s film
Billy Budd
A novel by Herman Melville
Found, Found, Found
"...I do believe that the more you give your love, and I do believe
that the more you offer trust ... the more you're bound to lose".
If Love Were All, by Noel Coward
Glamorous Glue
"...I am too much in love."
The Picture Of Dorian Gray, by Oscar Wilde
Hairdresser On Fire
Rumoured to be based on the play "The Boy Hairdresser" by
Orton/Halliwell
Hulmerist
Derived from area of Manchester (Hulme, pronounced "Hume")
Kill Uncle
Let's Kill Uncle, sixties film.
Late Night, Maudlin Street
"They are taking me away in a police car..."
"Are you not convinced, inspector ? Do you not believe in love ?"
By Grand Central Station I Sat Down And Wept, by Elizabeth Smart
Late Night On Watling Street
Book of short stories by Bill Naughton
Maudlin Street is the name of the secondary school in Carry On
Teaching
The Malady Lingers On
"...But the melody lingers on."
Ziegfeld Follies, by Irving Berlin
Little Man, What Now ?
Little Man, What Now ?, a German film released in 1934.
Lucky Lisp
Pun on Cliff Richard's Lucky Lips
Now My Heart Is Full
Dallow, Spicer, Pinkie, Cubitt
characters in Brighton Rock by Grahame Greene
Papa Jack
It is possible the title of this song refers to a boxer called Jack
Johnson
Piccadilly Palare
Words from Round The Home, 1960s radio show (see lyrics)
Roy's Keen
Probably a pun on Manchester United footballer Roy Keane.
Suedehead
Suedehead (album)
Suedehead, a book by Richard Allen
Vauxhall And I
Possibly from the film "Withnail And I"
Johnny Rogan lives in Vauxhall (an area of London)
Vauxhall is a make of car.
"Now that you're dead, what are you going to do with your life?"
- heathers
IMAET : http://www.oz.net/~moz/
Smiths & Morrissey website
brwr...@erols.com
Well...so what, really? I still assert wholeheartedly that Morrissey is
the new Shakespeare. And wasn't Shakespeare known to have "borrowed"
and/or "recycled" words and phrases from various sources? So who cares?
We're all drawing from a common wellspring of ideas and experiences, to
some extent.
In article
<Pine.LNX.3.95.980204...@mrbounce.compsoc.man.ac.uk> ,
Movement <m...@compsoc.org.uk> wrote:
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
LLivermore
<<Speranza, Irish nationalist magazine around the turn of the
century>>
Actually, it was closer to mid-century. Speranza's real name, as some of you
may know, was Lady Jane Wilde. She was Oscar's mother.
Also, in the list of the Mozzer's "borrowings," I think you missed "The dream
is gone but the baby's real enough" from "A Taste Of Honey."
tommy...@webtv.net
OH MY GAWD. i am shocked. although i agree that art can be successful
when just taking something that already exists and placing it in a
different context, some of these stolen lines are favorites of mine and
it feels CHEAP. (sigh) please tell me that "why pamper life's
complexity when the leather runs smooth on the passanger seat?" is not
stolen. PLEASE
YOU ARE WHAT YOU EAT
Movement
as far as i know, this line is original. i don't even know of anything it
is inspired by ...
Andy MacKinnon
do people seriously think he was trying to pass these off as his own? the
idea of sticking them in is to reflect his own influences and enthusiasms and
obliquely refer to the originals - almost all of the examples quoted earlier
are references to subjects he's discussed at length in interviews, so he's
hardly trying to keep it quiet...
incidentally, rusholme ruffians is almost a line for line parody of a comic
song by english comedienne victoria wood...
cheers!
andy
In article <34D734...@sci.fi.spammers.die.die.die>, Maija
Carolyn
blimey - must have taken you ages, well done!
just a couple of bits to add snip snip snip
> Unloveable
> "I wear black on the outside, because black is how I feel on the
> inside."
> Apparently from a Johnny Cash song. Anyone know which ?
the song is actually called 'the man in black'
> Hulmerist
> Derived from area of Manchester (Hulme, pronounced "Hume")
>
well, i'm from the north (UK) and pronounce it closer to 'home'
>
> Papa Jack
> It is possible the title of this song refers to a boxer called Jack
> Johnson
who is jackie palley/pallow (?spelling) i remember my grandparents talking
about him, i thought he was a sportsman, poss a boxer in the 40s or 50s
>
> Piccadilly Palare
> Words from Round The Home, 1960s radio show (see lyrics)
>
it's 'Round the Horne' which featured 2 'camp' characters sandy and julian (i
think) Palare is gay slang
excellent - 3 gold stars and no homework for you tonight!
Andrew Shiue
My question about the plagiarism revolves around 2 points:
1)How can Morrissey plagiarize and have nobody mind? If I did it as an artist
or a student, I'd be frowned upon.
2)How does he get away with it legally?
-Andrew
Andy MacKinnon
and of course what we're dealing with here is not plagiarism but allusion - we
informed, passionate music fans are meant to pick up the references, and it
thus heightens our enjoyment of the music cos we pat ourselves on the back for
being clever enough to spot the references...it's all to do with the musical
equivalent of intertextuality, and postmodernity and all that kinda rubbish...
In article <34D9E63B...@globalnet.co.uk>, lre...@globalnet.co.uk wrote:
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>Don't forget "Nature must still find a way" from 'The Family Way' (uttered by
>Avril Angers, cover star on the sleeve of 'I Started Something I Couldn't
>Finish').
>
>
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Lawrence Renee
Andy MacKinnon wrote:
> and of course what we're dealing with here is not plagiarism but allusion - we
> informed, passionate music fans are meant to pick up the references, and it
> thus heightens our enjoyment of the music cos we pat ourselves on the back for
> being clever enough to spot the references...it's all to do with the musical
> equivalent of intertextuality, and postmodernity and all that kinda rubbish...
>
> Guess who's been staying up late at night watching 'Late Review'! It's always
> odd and refreshing to know that your heroes aren't all that perfect and are
> partial to biting the odd line or two from someone else's work. Helps with the
> writer's block, I guess.
Dangerboy
Andy,
Come now. Plagiarism in law (in America, at least) has to have the
following: Has to be word-for-word, whole work, and then, credit must be
taken for and not granted to the original owner. Now, IF Morrissey were to
take "That's Entertainment" and say he wrote all the words, THAT would be
plagiarism. Taking a bit here and a bit there and incorporating them into
songs is NOT plagiarism. The courts have ruled quite consistently on this.
As a matter of fact, I can take the song "Every Day is Like Sunday," rename
it "Everyday Seems Like Monday," and as long as a note in each 7 is
different, and the words are similar but not exact, I can call it my own.
Such is the law.
Now, as to Morrissey being a plagiarist, you are trying not only to
incite people here, but to imply that Morrissey has no original thought
process, and that he and his lyrics are a sham and all belong to others than
Morrissey. Nothing could be farther from the truth. If your standards of
plagiarism were applied to all musicians and lyricists, most of them would
be out of business, as musicians quote from everyday life often to make
their songs more relevant. Even if this everyday life comes from TV shows,
movies, books, historical documents, other songs, etc.
In conclusion, I think, as would most others, that Morrissey is no
plagiarist. He is a commentator on his personal pitfalls, political issues,
etc., and is, in my opinion, one of today's finest bards. He sings in
character, out of character, as himself, as others, etc. As all musicians
do, he borrows from LIFE. What a concept.
EJ
--
A very secure male, not worried about whether or not Morrissey is gay, loves
the music and the lyrics, but eats meat every now and then, and doesn't have
a really big hairdo. Also likes other groups, but likes Moz the most, and
is all for intelligent conversation and debate on NG's, as long as all
persons agree that opinions are okay to have, and that no one person's has
import over the others.
Andrew Shiue wrote in message ...
Dangerboy
I loved the movie "Heathers." It is one of my favorites... I thought it was
HILARIOUS!!!!
I know this is off-topic, but what the heck, so is half of the stuff on this
NG
EJ
--
A very secure male, not worried about whether or not Morrissey is gay, loves
the music and the lyrics, but eats meat every now and then, and doesn't have
a really big hairdo. Also likes other groups, but likes Moz the most, and
is all for intelligent conversation and debate on NG's, as long as all
persons agree that opinions are okay to have, and that no one person's has
import over the others.
Movement wrote in message ...
Fookin Caged Tigah
i agree with the person who noted that morrissey has very openly talked
about his influences. the shelagh delaney lines from "a taste of honey" are
standard smiths lore. every fan knows he does this. for chrissakes,
shelagh delaney is the person on the cover of "louder than bombs."
and i agree also of course that any assumption made that morrissey is less
than original in his own thinking is completely erroneous and laughable,
when one considers the whole of morrissey's work. a snipped lyric or two
spread throughout the 100-200 songs morrissey has recorded means absolutely
nothing in this world to me, except it clues me into what morrissey likes
and makes me interested also.
tommy...@webtv.net
oh god yes. one of my favorites. i did a sculpture thesis on it my
second year of college. "plain or bq??"
"BQ!!!!!"
LLivermore
<<(sigh) please tell me that "why pamper life's
complexity when the leather runs smooth on the passanger seat?" is not
stolen. PLEASE>>
If it is, I don't know about it. But I'm virtually certain that "a jumped up
pantry boy" was from some English film, the title of which I can't seem to
recall at the moment.
Andrew Shiue
I like this response. I never meant for this plagiarism discussion to suggest
that Morrissey was unoriginal and desperate for lyrics. I just found it
interesting that there should be lines culled from his cultural influences.
Yes, it does heighten the experience. Especially the "Taste of Honey" play.
-A
Matt Brooks
On 6 Feb 1998 01:19:01 GMT, LLivermore (llive...@aol.com) wrote:
:
: <<(sigh) please tell me that "why pamper life's
"Sleuth." Laurence Olivier says to Michael Caine, "[You're] a jumped-up
pantry boy who doesn't know his place." Actually, it was a play first.
Matt
Movement
On 6 Feb 1998, LLivermore wrote:
> <<(sigh) please tell me that "why pamper life's
> complexity when the leather runs smooth on the passanger seat?" is not
> stolen. PLEASE>>
>
> If it is, I don't know about it. But I'm virtually certain that "a jumped up
> pantry boy" was from some English film, the title of which I can't seem to
> recall at the moment.
>
>
Sleuth, starring Michael Caine.
"Accept the contradictions"
- The Kopyright Liberation Front
LLivermore
I just remembered ANOTHER one from "A Taste Of Honey:"
"I'm not happy and I'm not sad."
bridget
On Mon, 9 Feb 1998, Movement wrote:
> Sleuth, starring Michael Caine.
>
A totally off topic question, but does anyone here know the song Micheal
Caine by Madness? I think it's great!
bridget--who likes other bands besides the smiths and singers other than
moz!
"each bud must blossom and grow..." ~Morrissey
Deren Campbell
bridget wrote:
> On Mon, 9 Feb 1998, Movement wrote:
>
> > Sleuth, starring Michael Caine.
> >
> A totally off topic question, but does anyone here know the song
> Micheal
> Caine by Madness? I think it's great!
>
>
It's hillarious! Divine Madness is a great compilation if there are
any other Madness fans in out there. I wonder what inspired them to do
this song. Very catchy.
new_...@email.msn.com
> It's hillarious! Divine Madness is a great compilation if there are
>any other Madness fans in out there. I wonder what inspired them to do
>this song. Very catchy.
>
I *think* it was a Northern Ireland - inspired song. Nothing to do with
Michael Caine at all in fact. I can't quite remember where I read that
now... I dunno, perhaps I dreamt it.
naomi