Mike Pinder's downfall

[Tysteel34]

I think that ultimately, the root of Mike Pinder's downfall was the fact he was
a nice guy who was more interested in the sucess of the Moody Blues than
garnering acclaim for himself. He was the one behind the scenes pushing the
group to succeed, coming up with most of the concepts, and helping to arrange
the other's songs. He did so very unselfishly and didn't fight for song
credits for the others' songs, as he was obviously more interested in the
overall success of the group.

For example, when you consider the song "Nights In White Satin" which was the
band's biggest hit, Justin came up with the lyrics, but Mike came up with much
of the music to it.. Even Hayward has admitted that Mike Pinder listened to
the words and came up with the main melody to it. While Mike Pinder should've
been credited for arranging the song, he obviously didn't push for the
co-credit as he was very unselfish with helping Hayward. Justin has said that
one of the things he liked about the old days was that he could come to Pinder
with his songs for help. So "nights in white satin" certainly isn't the only
time Mike was unselfish in helping write a song for someone else in the group.
I would imagine he put music to many other songs without asking for a credit,
especially those written by Ray and Graeme. I guess that was the last thing
on his mind, demanding song credits, when he was more interested in the overall
success of the Moody Blues.

Here's a hypothetical question. What if Mike Pinder had demanded to be
co-credited for "nights in white satin" and various other songs, I wonder if
his case in court against the band would've played out more to his
satisfaction? Certainly if his name appeared on the bigger hits, he would've
had more of an argument to convince the judge to not let the others to use the
name "MOODY BLUES' since he was the cornerstone and bedrock of the band.

I think the reason why Mike Pinder lost his lawsuit was because Justin was
able to convince the judge that HE was the Moody Blues because the credits
indicated that he solely penned the band's biggest hits. But if Mike hadn't
been so unselfish in the early days, if he had demanded to be acknowledged, he
could've easily proven to the court that he was the driving creative force and
the soul behind the band's music. If Pinder had been on more solid footing,
Hayward and Lodge would've had less of an incentive to kick Mike out of the
group. Because they know that they couldn't have withstood the legal
challenges.

So this was Mike Pinder's downfall. He was more interested in the success of
the group rather than making a name for himself.

[true blue]

if he was more interested in the group then why even initiate a lawsuit?
was it not just the residuals that he was going after? makes sense to
continue to be paid for the sales of albums he participated on.
you make it sound like it was a messy court battle. was it?

[Tysteel34]

true blue t...@sound.com wrote:

>if he was more interested in the group then why even initiate a lawsuit?
>was it not just the residuals that he was going after? makes sense to
>continue to be paid for the sales of albums he participated on.
>you make it sound like it was a messy court battle. was it?
>

There was the lawsuit filed by both Mike Pinder and Tony Clarke attempting to
stop the release of Long Distance Voyager. Mike didn't feel that the others
should use the name without him being in the group, as he was the founding
member. So I guess you could say it was messy.

It was always my understanding that while Mike Pinder refused to tour behind
Octave, that didn't necessarily mean that he was no longer interested in
recording with the group. He and Tony Clarke weren't invited to the sessions
which became Long Distance Voyager.

[Cathyw]

tyst...@aol.com (Tysteel34) wrote in message news:<20031102092045...@mb-m27.aol.com>...

> I think that ultimately, the root of Mike Pinder's downfall was the fact he was
> a nice guy who was more interested in the sucess of the Moody Blues than
> garnering acclaim for himself.

He was the one behind the scenes pushing the
> group to succeed, coming up with most of the concepts, and helping to arrange
> the other's songs. He did so very unselfishly and didn't fight for song
> credits for the others' songs, as he was obviously more interested in the
> overall success of the group.

I think the band decided early on that whoever came up with the bulk
of a song first, got the songwriting credits. From
http://mwe3.com/archive/pastfeature/pinder/pinder00a.htm

RS: On the newest Moody Blues album, Graeme Edge actually does a song
with spoken word poetry just like they used to do in the ‘60s. Going
back in time, could you reflect on how you and Graeme collaborated of
those great spoken word tracks which were highlights on several of the
Moodies' ‘Classic 7' albums from the ‘60s?

MP: There was some collaboration, but mainly Graeme would write the
song or make the writings. The one, for instance, that ends with "Just
open your eyes and realize the way it's always been", from "The
Balance" (on A Question Of Balance), that was my contribution to that.
I mean I came up with that at the end of the song. There was
definitely more collaboration on the one where I got everyone finally
to say something on the microphone. Where we got everyone talking...

RS: From On The Threshold Of A Dream?

MP: The one where I end up saying "There you go man, stay as cool as
you can".

RS: From Threshold!

MP: Right, that one there. That was a great opportunity where I pulled
everybody in to do a part on that.

There's no denying Mike was a tremendous driving force in the band in
those days.

> For example, when you consider the song "Nights In White Satin" which was the
> band's biggest hit, Justin came up with the lyrics, but Mike came up with much
> of the music to it.. Even Hayward has admitted that Mike Pinder listened to
> the words and came up with the main melody to it.

That isn't true. I can't remember where I heard this, but it was on a
radio interview. Justin said about Nights, that he had the song with
the melody, but that Mike came up with the Mellotron riff, which was a
huge complement to the song. But that didn't entitle Mike to a
songwriting credit. Songwriting credit is legally about who wrote the
sung melody and lyrics only, not the arrangements, unless there is
some democratic decision that everyone will get credit, as with some
groups. Writing melodic fills or riffs is not the same as writing a
song.

Perhaps Mike wanted to keep his own songwriting credits for himself
and that it ws his choice that everyone do that. We don't know,
except that the band made a decision to give songwriting credits to
the person who brought in the song. Justin has said he's done a lot
of melodic arranging of Graeme's AND Ray's songs, even some of the
sung melodies, yet he doesn't try to claim songwriting credit for
them.

I don't want to talk about the lawsuit, but as you said, Mike chose to
leave the Moody Blues on his own. None of the others wanted him to
leave, and I read that Justin was crushed over it for a long time. I
personally think Mike never believed the rest of the band would, nor
deserved to, have succeeded without him. He was wrong.

[MoodyBlueBill]

Ty Titanium (or is it Aluminum?) wrote:

Even Hayward has admitted that Mike Pinder listened to the words and
came up with the main melody to it.

Really? Where did you hear that? That's Justin's song and he wrote it.
Justin has said that Mike came up with the little keyboard part
between "Night's and White Satin" and "Never Reaching the End" that
goes "da da da da da da da dee dum"

Wacha been smokin there lately, Ty? :)

Love and Peace to All,
Bill :)

true blue <t...@sound.com> wrote in message news:<9s9pb.54$VM.1...@news20.bellglobal.com>...

[The Nice Mean Man]

tyst...@aol.com (Tysteel34) wrote in message news:<20031102092045...@mb-m27.aol.com>...

Pinder had 'end-stage bleeding heart syndrome'. In other words, his
life as a bleeding heart liberal (as well as the world he saw thru
those rose-coloured glasses) simply became too much for what was
pretty much mediocre talent at best. I think he crashed emotionally.
That's pretty clear by what the others have said themselves.

[DharmaBum3]

<< as he was the founding
member. >>

Don't know where you got your info but Mike was NOT THE founding member. He was
A founding member and the rights to the Moody name did not belong to him.

[Singformoi]

Yes, the last thing I knew, Graeme also had something to do with founding the
Moody Blues.

It tends to be the Mike Pinder group ("Why can't he rejoin the Moodies?" "The
Moodies are no good without Mike Pinder!") who credit Mike with starting the
band all by himself and it's as if he alone owns the name Moody Blues.

I don't think so.

Sue

[Peter V]

I always thought that Pinder and Laine formed the Moody Blues, just because you
are in the original lineup doesn't mean you are a founder. Denny Laine was not
a founder of Wings, Paul and Linda McCartney recuited him. I can't even imagine
if Hayward or Lodge had left the band how their deciples would handle the same
treatment that Pinder and Moraz seem to get! If the bands history were
re-written to exclude their achievements. I suppose that Ray will be the next
to get re-written!

PeterV

[DharmaBum3]

<< I always thought that Pinder and Laine formed the Moody Blues, just because
you
are in the original lineup doesn't mean you are a founder. >>

No, you are wrong on that. Thomas and Pinder were founders - NOT Laine

[Peter V]

The only website I could find does indeed list Denny Laine and Mike Pinder as
the founders of the Moody Blues, The place I originally read this was in former
ELO drummer Bev Bevan in his book "The Electric Light Orchestra Story" Bev was
in Laines "Denny & the Diplomats" at the time and he says "By the end of 1964
Denny was gone. He was interested in forming a new band and that did not
include us. It was called the Moody Blues" Perhaps Denny and Bev are trying to
rewrite history! This is the website I saw..

http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Palladium/2214/dlain_b.htm

PeterV

[SecretDoc]

In article <20031111061543...@mb-m21.aol.com>, dharm...@aol.com
(DharmaBum3) writes:

>
>No, you are wrong on that. Thomas and Pinder were founders - NOT Laine
>

Thomas, Edge, Pinder, Laine, and I apologize to number 5, but I can't recall
his name were the first version of the Moody Blues.

Laine and #5 left so Hayward and Lodge were hired and a new band was going to
be formed called the "Mellow Trons", but the record label wanted to capitalize
on the "Go Now" number one hit and insisted they stay as the "Moody Blues".
This is the reason Edge, Thomas, and even Pinder have said the "real" Moody
Blues first album was DOFP. I guess it all depends on how you look at it. You
can make an argument that Hayward and Lodge are "founders" of the Mellow
Trons-Moody Blues.

Tuck

[Singformoi]

Tuck, number five was Clint Warwick.

Sue

[SecretDoc]

In article <20031113083238...@mb-m05.aol.com>, singf...@aol.com
(Singformoi) writes:

>Tuck, number five was Clint Warwick.
>
>Sue
>
>

Thank you for kick started my (as Skyvoice once said) aging leaking brain.

Tuck

[Wizard]

Tuck...

See... age is going to do the job rather nicely afterall.

LOL

Skyvoice

"SecretDoc" <secr...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20031113154246...@mb-m29.aol.com...

[Tony Brown]

Peter,

You might like to have a look at the History page on my web-site ...

www.TheMoodyBlues.co.uk

Lots of rare records & photos etc... as well.

All the best,

Tony

"Peter V" <theelect...@aol.company> wrote in message
news:20031112192750...@mb-m19.aol.com...

[SecretDoc]

What job??????

Who am I???

Tu...something, I think

In article <IdTsb.552$_i1.4...@news2.news.adelphia.net>, "Wizard"

[Wizard]

Tuck...

You said it.

Skyvoice

"SecretDoc" <secr...@aol.com> wrote in message

news:20031115044108...@mb-m18.aol.com...

[SecretDoc]

In article <G0rtb.1295$_i1.8...@news2.news.adelphia.net>, "Wizard"
<skyv...@noharvest.org> writes:

>Tuck...
>
>You said it.
>
>Skyvoice
>

'Aint you the one always crying out "over your head". Better look up when I
post next time. You missed the last one.

Tuck

[Wizard]

Tuck...

You know I've never said any such thing. Deflections again?

Missed? Nah...

Skyvoice

"SecretDoc" <secr...@aol.com> wrote in message

news:20031115153250...@mb-m15.aol.com...

[immag...@mac.com]

"I think that ultimately, the root of Mike Pinder's downfall..."

I question whether it was Pinders "downfall". Seems to me he landed on his feet. He wanted out of the lime light. He raised a family. He seems very happy. It's crazy how some people measure success these days. It's a shame they couldn't work together again or be recognized for their achievements. Don't get me starter on the Rock & Roll Hall Of Shame. In interviews I've seen, Graeme was the one who was most pissed and who still seems to hold a grudge. I've heard Justin speak very fondly of Mike. Ray Thomas & Mike are still Friends. When the 'suits' get involved things can get ugly. Being in a band is like a marriage. It's hard to reconcile. I think the rest of the group had a right to go on just as Pink Floyd when on without Roger. I like what the Moodys did and are doing post Mike, and post Ray, but they would have never been the Moodies without them. Now that you have such great mellotron samples, they sound more like the classic 7 band than ever (post Mike)

[dave.d...@gmail.com]

They didn't truly survive; they mutated. They moved forward and made some pop songs and left what they truly were behind. Granted, the times were changing and prog rock was dying out. Some will argue that they became bigger than ever with all the pop songs (radio hits post-'77)but it wasn't the MBs that took me on different visions and places in my mind.
As an example, Pink Floyd, minus Waters, is basically Dave Gilmore trying to capture the magic of true PF, but it never truly succeeds. It makes its own statement but will forever be a copy.

[zor...@yahoo.com]

It was Patrick Moraz that brought the lawsuit

[root...@gmail.com]

One thing that you can count on is that the people that think they know the most, actually know very little.

[thez...@gmail.com]

I agree with you that for nearly all instances, in your words, "Songwriting credit is legally about who wrote the song melody and lyrics only, not the arrangements, unless there is some democratic decision that everyone will get credit, as with some groups. Writing melodic fills or riffs is not the same as writing a song" Here's where there's an exception to the rule; when the melodic fill becomes such an integral part of a song that the song is recognized by that part, a writing credit can be due. For example, A Whiter Shade Of Pale. Gary Brooker and Keith Reid got the credit from 1967 but Matthew Fisher came up with the organ intro in the studio during the recording session. The other 2 openly acknowledged his contribution but the publisher (who stood to lose the most) disagreed. Matthew Fisher sued to get a writers credit and after about 30 years the courts finally ruled in his favor. To all their credit, he continued to perform live with the group at his own discretion, while the lawsuit was in court. The Doors shared writing credits on their first LP - so did Santana. Thanks for all your posting - very interesting and civilized debate.

[elen...@gmail.com]

I want to know everything...everything about this lawsuit, etc. Lead me to where i need to go

[John W Kennedy]

On 8/30/18 2:23 PM, elen...@gmail.com wrote:
> I want to know everything...everything about this lawsuit, etc. Lead me to where i need to go

This thread is 15 years old.

--
John W. Kennedy
"The blind rulers of Logres
Nourished the land on a fallacy of rational virtue."
-- Charles Williams. "Taliessin through Logres: Prelude"

[itali...@gmail.com]

Yes, you are right. I thought that when I read that post. It was Moraz who wanted the same status as the others and sued to get it. After all they went through it must have been their realization that the resurrection was going to happen. They had to evolve out of the ashes another way which they did ultimately.

[itali...@gmail.com]

It's on You Tube.

[bobwri...@gmail.com]

Justin and John wanted to go in a new direction.Pinder didn't.Simple as that.The Moody Blues sold out way back in the late 70's.They have never even been close to what they were in the late 60's and most of the 70's.

[cheapmo...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, June 25, 2020 at 3:46:43 PM UTC-5, bobwri...@gmail.com wrote:
> Justin and John wanted to go in a new direction.Pinder didn't.Simple as that.The Moody Blues sold out way back in the late 70's.They have never even been close to what they were in the late 60's and most of the 70's.

not even CLOSE to being right.
Pinder had moved to California...had a young family..and had grown weary of the touring...and the long months on the road.
He left the Moodies in the middle of Octave.
He later sued the Moodies..he still wanted to work with them..he figured they could come to some sort of arrangement where he wouldn't have to tour...hire a traveling keyboardist or some such.
When he discovered the Moodies were working on another album..he sued them to stop them from performing as The Moody Bkues.
Ultimately...the judge decided that Mike had done nothing with the band for quite a while...seeing the band was ready to soldier on...and ruled in the favor of the moody Blues.

[Amy Weber]

On Monday, November 3, 2003 at 2:58:58 AM UTC-6, The Nice Mean Man wrote:
> tyst...@aol.com (Tysteel34) wrote in message news:<20031102092045...@mb-m27.aol.com>...

> Pinder had 'end-stage bleeding heart syndrome'. In other words, his
> life as a bleeding heart liberal (as well as the world he saw thru
> those rose-coloured glasses) simply became too much for what was
> pretty much mediocre talent at best. I think he crashed emotionally.
> That's pretty clear by what the others have said themselves.

[Carl Weitz]

On Thursday, June 25, 2020 at 4:46:43 PM UTC-4, bobwri...@gmail.com wrote:
> Justin and John wanted to go in a new direction.Pinder didn't.Simple as that.The Moody Blues sold out way back in the late 70's.They have never even been close to what they were in the late 60's and most of the 70's.

No, Bob. It wasn't that Pinder and the others had a difference over the bands musical "direction". It was about Michael not wanting to tour as he was not unlike the other members suffering road burn out. Just more so since he just remarried. And there was a big misunderstanding concerning Pinder's immigration status. That dept. lost his paperwork and if he left to record in England, he would not be allowed re-entry here. So when he would only record in the states and force the others to come here rather than he fly there, they thought he was arrogant and and selfish to the point they let their anger out during recording sessions. Therefore, that misunderstanding, according to Pinder, caused resent too strong to overcome.

[Carl Weitz]