How Can You Kiss Me/Just a Little Love
TTuerff
John and Bill). I used to own a copy until about 10 years ago when I sold it to
a lawyer in CT for about $200. (Not a bad investment considering I found it in
a basket of unsleeved records in a second-hand store for a DIME in 1982.)
Anyway, I noticed recently that somebody had Napstered the song, and I presume
that tapes of the single were floating around long before the internet. But I
wanna know: How rare IS this single? How many KNOWN copies are there out there?
Does the Napsterizing of this record make its value any less? What's the going
rate now for a copy of this single?
About a week after I sold it I met another Nes collector who said, had he known
that I had the 45, that he would have paid me $500 for it. And that was ten
years ago!
Thoughts?
TT
CatGOD29
>John and Bill). I used to own a copy until about 10 years ago when I sold it
>to
>a lawyer in CT for about $200. (Not a bad investment considering I found it
>in
>a basket of unsleeved records in a second-hand store for a DIME in 1982.)
>
>Anyway, I noticed recently that somebody had Napstered the song, and I
>presume
>that tapes of the single were floating around long before the internet. But I
>wanna know: How rare IS this single? How many KNOWN copies are there out
>there?
I've always heard it never went beyond a few DJ label pressings, but
considering the record company was a small company, it's possible there
could've been anywhere between 2,000 and 20,000 copies pressed.
Some of the 45s I believe are bootlegs since the publishing on the 45 is
listed as Screen Gems-Columbia Music, Inc. - and this particular 45 came out
in 1963, before Nez was signed to SGC Music. SGC Music acquired Nez's songs
circa 1965-66 when he was signed on as one of the Monkees.
>Does the Napsterizing of this record make its value any less? What's the
>going
>rate now for a copy of this single?
>
It's not commercially available - no, Napsterizing of the record doesn't
devalue the record. Depends on what another person is willing to pay for the
record.
>About a week after I sold it I met another Nes collector who said, had he
>known
>that I had the 45, that he would have paid me $500 for it. And that was ten
>years ago!
>
>Thoughts?
>
Some think Monkee-related and Monkee recordings have dropped in value, what
with Rhino having all of their original albums available. Some can't see that
others want those albums on the original label or want the original artwork or
a mono edition as opposed to a stereo edition.
Pre-Monkee solo recordings are still hard to come by, so paying out some
bucks for those rare 45 will continue until the point in time when and if
they're ever released on CD. Then, the value might drop some, but again, it
depends on what another person is willing to pay for the privilege of owning
that 45.
And, does anyone else think there is a certain irony in that Mike was the
only member of the Monkees to have more recordings out before and after the
Monkees, with Micky and Davy having a miniscule number of recordings while
Peter remained pretty much empty-handed before and after the Monkees?
TTuerff
<< Some of the 45s I believe are bootlegs since the publishing on the 45 is
listed as Screen Gems-Columbia Music, Inc. - and this particular 45 came out
in 1963, before Nez was signed to SGC Music. SGC Music acquired Nez's songs
circa 1965-66 when he was signed on as one of the Monkees. >>
This was the real thing, on a Texas label and published by some other company,
FYI. Omnibus, I think the label was.
<< And, does anyone else think there is a certain irony in that Mike was the
only member of the Monkees to have more recordings out before and after the
Monkees, with Micky and Davy having a miniscule number of recordings while
Peter remained pretty much empty-handed before and after the Monkees? >>
Not necessarily. Remember, prior to the Monkees, Davy Jones was a Broadway
actor. Not too many opportunities to make records (although I think he did make
one, didn't he?). Dolenz was an actor--no point in making records. Tork was a
folkie. And the folk scene was dying by 1965. God knows for every folkie who
made a record in the early 60s there must have been hundreds of guys who never
got near a studio. So I don't think there's any irony involved. As for
afterward, I think it's just that Nes was the most talented musician of the
bunch, plain and simple. Think: If you worked for RCA and you had to try and
reclaim the investment the label made in the Monkees by hiring one of them as a
solo act, which one would YOU sign? Hell, I'd sign Mike in a minute.
TT
Michele
Micky had a a single or two before the monkees. but nothing
really famous. Either were mike's I dont think. Those three
( mMD ) had singles out before the monkees. But I dont think
any of them really had any exposure.
David McLallen
>Micky had a a single or two before the monkees. but nothing
>really famous. Either were mike's I dont think. Those three
>( mMD ) had singles out before the monkees. But I dont think
>any of them really had any exposure.
Micky made a couple of recordings prior to the M's, but they weren't
released
until *after* the show came out, to capitalize on his name.
d3
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Estrella
> And, does anyone else think there is a certain irony in that Mike was the
>only member of the Monkees to have more recordings out before and after the
>Monkees, with Micky and Davy having a miniscule number of recordings while
>Peter remained pretty much empty-handed before and after the Monkees?
It's more of a pattern than irony, looking at the five years before 1966 and
after 1968. Nez seemed very much determined to make records. Micky and
Davy,
though having some degree and desire of music, managed to not find the right
people who would be willing to stay interested in the talent. Peter, for
whatever reason before and after, had a hard time getting good with the
execs.
The irony is more like Peter who wasn't prolific in recording is becoming,
whilst Nez, formerly the most prolific of the bunch, seems to be taking it
real easy (as far as putting out newly created recordings in the music
retail
market). But that's just me.
Estrella
http://members.tripod.com/~s3tar/monkees/
ASzmania
Either were mike's I dont think. Those three ( mMD ) had singles out before the
monkees. But I dont think any of them really had any exposure. >>
<delurking>
That brings up a question--does anyone have any idea how much Micky's "Huff
Puff/Don't Do It" single would be worth these days? I bought one years ago,
mainly to hear the songs--but haven't touched it in years, so I was thinking of
selling.
Thanks!
Amy
David McLallen
Just checked a couple of recent ebay auctions and the answer is - it
depends.
A copy without picture sleeve went for all of $1.75, but a copy with picture
sleeve went for over $15.00. You make the call.
d3
CatGOD29
>really famous. Either were mike's I dont think. Those three
>( mMD ) had singles out before the monkees. But I dont think
>any of them really had any exposure.
>
records been successful, a person selling the 45 might be lucky to get $10.
Some price guides list the pre-Monkee singles as genarlly being worth around
$50-100, but what the price guides use as standards is what someone else has
already paid for the 45 or LP.
Not necessarily a true reflection of the record's worth - again, it depends
on what someone else is willing to pay for that 45 or LP. With eBay around,
certain recordings have hit ridiculously high prices but that is the
marketplace.
A few years back, I came across a copy of "More of the Monkees" being sold at
a local flea market. The woman who had the album had almost 2,000 albums for
sale - know what she was asking for MOTM? She had a sticker quoting "Book
Price" as $25 but she'd let it go for $20. Great bargain, right? Not a chance -
side two had a major, major scratch cutting across all six tracks. I wouldn't
even have given her a dollar for the album - she inquired if I was interested;
told her not really. You couldn't tell her the album wasn't worth much because
of that horrendous scratch - she was a "pro" - she "knew" what the value of
those recordings were - she got them out of a book, but that sure as hell
didn't make her an expert!
Most of her albums were overpriced anyway - the Monkees were kind of cheap
compared to some of the others. To this day, I'm still trying to figure just
how she figured a Skeeter Davis album was worth $350???????
Bettina
CatGOD29 wrote:
> A few years back, I came across a copy of "More of the Monkees" being sold at
> a local flea market.
I've seen it at garage sales for a dollar. I am curious about something--why do
people buy the old vinyl records? Just to have them? I know people collect all
kinds of things (I know someone who collects canning jars with a passion you
wouldn't believe) but as far as I can see, the old records are the same as the
rereleased ones, only dirtier and with more scratches. What makes them desirable?
Bettina
Chris Martin
the Monkees". I've still got my old albums, though they skip in places.
You'd think this one would be worth almost nothing because so many
copies were sold. Wonder how much Present or Changes would go for.
Bettina
Bettina
Estrella
It depends on the collector. I'm a 3rd generation Monkees' fan, but I grew
up
on a Fisher Price record player. Me having an old Monkee record probably
won't be as significant to those who bought them in '66 and '67, but it's a
nice thing to have to temporarily "time travel" back with (and they don't
seem
to depreciate in value unless used more). I have been fortunate to find
Monkee and Nesmith records that weren't too scratchy (can't say the same for
the covers), and it does not take much to clean the dust and fingerprints
off
as long as it's done right. Again, it depends on the collector and what
they
do with it.
Estrella
http://members.tripod.com/~s3tar/monkees/
Tapeworm316
Bill
"The right people never get hurt" - Reid Fleming, The World's Toughest Milkman
CatGOD29
>something--why do
>people buy the old vinyl records? Just to have them? I know people collect
>all
>kinds of things (I know someone who collects canning jars with a passion you
>wouldn't believe) but as far as I can see, the old records are the same as
>the
>rereleased ones, only dirtier and with more scratches. What makes them
>desirable?
>
>Bettina
There are people who simply prefer having an album on vinyl to compact discs.
They speak of a vinyl record having more warmth and that a CD is somewhat cold.
Part of the problem with CD reissues of old albums/recordings is that the
record company in question may not have remastered/remixed the sound for
compact discs, which would help the sound tremendously.
RCA remastered and remixed Elvis's 1969 Memphis sessions and the recordings
sound much better now on CD when compared to the original CD reissues of the
same material. One song in particular, a version of Bobby Darin's "I'll Be
There" wasn't very good when it was originally released in 1970 on RCA's budget
label, Camden. The guitars sounded awfully thin on the original - and now? Now,
they sound more like thunder coming from the stereo.
Other people want to have the vinyl albums for the original artwork or
because the album is in mono as opposed to stereo - the mono mixes tended to
sound better on the Monkees recordings. I still prefer the mono version of
"Steppin' Stone" - it annoys me when I hear the local oldies station play the
stereo version of the song (with the repeat of 'I'm not your steppin' stone' in
the middle of the song - the mono version omits the line).
Garage sales are usually good sources to find old vinyl LPs and 45s at rather
cheap prices. Because the Monkees's original albums were long out of print,
some of the original Colgems label pressings were worth some bucks. Once the
albums were reissued to CD, that helped to drop those prices - although some of
the Arista CD reissues might now be worth a few more bucks because some of the
albums contained some rarities, such as slightly longer versions.
CatGOD29
>
>
"The Monkees Present" was running anywhere from $50 to well over $100 a few
years ago..
Some dealers were asking $200-400 for a Colgems copy of "Changes," because of
that album having the dubious distinction of being the only Monkees album to
not chart originally.
Both "Head" and "Instant Replay" were above the $50 level. "A Barrelful of
Monkees" and the Japanese version of "The Monkees/Greatest Hits" for a time
were commanding some big bucks - I remember seeing one dealer asking $1200 for
"A Barrelful of Monkees" and $800 for the Japanese edition of the greatest hits
package.
Both were overpriced as neither had any rare mixes - "Barrelful" was the last
Monkees album released on the Colgems label; it was part of a series of
recordings released by RCA with the title "This Is...." The Monkees album
didn't have the "This Is..." in its title but it was marketed by RCA with other
recordings released with the "This Is..." title.
The Monkees album was the only rock album released by RCA that was part of
the "This Is..." series. Elvis, Jefferson Airplane, Nilsson, Jose Feliciano,
or any other act or artist considered rock or pop-rock at the time and signed
to RCA - none had an album issued by RCA with that title. Henry Mancini was
about the only other contemporary artist who had an album titled "This Is...,"
all the rest were from the Big Band era.
The Japanese edition of the greatest hits package likewise had nothing rare
on the songs; its value was strictly for the front and back cover photos.
As for the Monkees's first five albums, they generally had a price range of
$10 to $40, with the mono copy having the higher value. The mono version of
"The Birds, the Bees and the Monkees" was worth more than $50 at one point
because of the mono mixes on some of the songs being quite different to the
stereo mixes.
CDs helped to lower the prices being asked for the original albums, but there
are still some people who would rather have the original Colgems label than the
CD equivalent.
I still have the original albums on Colgems (except for "Changes" and "A
Barrelful of Monkees," which were very hard to find in 1970 and 1971) and have
them on CD. My only complaint with the CDs is I truly wish Rhino had remastered
and remixed the albums for CD release; the mixes still sound rather flat here
and there. I still believe there was room for improvement on the sound,
particularly with BBM, IR and TMP.
Markshark989
four albums could be found at any flea market or garage sale for under a
dollar....condition is another factor, however. I'd think if you could find
originals in mint condition, they'd be worth some dough, maybe $25 or so, but
the flea market copy you mentioned with the scratch across a whole album side
wouldn't be worth more than a buck or so in my judgment. The later albums are
rarer and more expensive...but I noticed even in the mid-1980s, when Rhino had
reissued them on vinyl, the prices went down quite a bit. I got a VG+/NM
"Monkees Present" for $20 (with Side 1 on both labels) in 1986 or so.
julima
stores. The local Salvation Army charges 50 cents an lp and 25 cents for a
single. There are several Monkee albums and singles available although most are
without the covers and sleeves. They are scratched and knicked and probably
would ruin the needle before hearing any sound.
Just recently I have picked up used Monkee cds from local record stores. The
records and cds are out there, you just have to look for them.
It also depends on where you live and the demand of such items in your area.
Here, the records are a dime a dozen and not worth much, even if with cover.
OF course with Napster, iMesh,Bearshare and other music download sites, it is
just as easy to download the music, especially if you have a cd burner.
JoeAlterio
>listed as Screen Gems-Columbia Music, Inc. - and this particular 45 came out
>in 1963, before Nez was signed to SGC Music. SGC Music acquired Nez's songs
>circa 1965-66
You are both right and wrong.
You are right in the fact that Screen Gems had purchased Nez's songs in
'65-'66. Thus the "Just A Little Love" on Edan shows SG publishing on the
label.
You are incorrect in the fact that Omnibus 45s were bootlegs. You bring up the
fact that these songs could not be legit if they have SG publishing on the
label (as the record was put out in '63). In fact, the Omnibus 45 shows both
songs as Janess BMI publishing, not SG. You can see pics of these labels at the
Monkees Global Discography website: www.themonkees.co.uk.
Also, Nesmith has in the past acknowledged their existence, including once on a
radio station interview when I was lucky enough to ask him about this and the
Highness 45.
As for the value, I know that a few thousand has been tossed at the other rare
45 (Higness)...I happen to know the owner, and he suggested he may sell it when
the transmission of his car goes out and he needs a new one! With my luck, he
owns a Jaguar....
Joe
TTuerff
know that sucker was real 'cause I did a shitload of research on it in the 10
years I owned it. Came out around '63 and didn't have a note about ScreenGems
on it 'cause at the time, who the hell was Mike Nesmith to Screen Gems?
I've never seen the EDAN record.
TT
CatGOD29
bootlegs either.
The publishing for "Just A Little Love" on a photo copy of the Edan label is
listed as Screen Gems Music, yet according to the book "The Monkees: A
Manufactured Image," the 45 was released in September 1965 - the very month
auditions began for "The Monkees" TV series.
The publishing on Mike's two singles on Colpix is listed as Real Blue Music,
on the songs he wrote. The Colpix singles were issued in October 1965 and
January 1966. Colpix was of course, the label owned by Columbia Pictures and
was the label that eventually morphed into Colgems.
Mike wasn't signed to Screen Gems-Columbia Music before the Monkees, nor was
it very likely SGC Music would take the publishing just for one song. At the
time Mike auditioned for the Monkees, he had a contract with Randy Sparks, who
owned or was one of the owners of Real Blue Music, the company which published
Mike's songs in '65 and early '66 .
After Mike was signed on as one of the Monkees, SGC Music acquired the songs
that had been published by Real Blue Music. After signing on as one of the
Monkees, all of Mike's songs were published by SGC Music, which would publish
all of Mike's songs through 1973 - long after the TV series was over and Mike
was no longer a member of the Monkees.
All of which brings us back to the Edan 45 - if this record was issued in
September 1965, the publishing for the song shouldn't have been SGC Music, but
for the company which published the tune, whether it was Janess Music or Real
Blue Music or another company altogether.
Mike wasn't signed to SGC Music and wouldn't be signed to SGC Music until he
was one of the Monkees.
So how could a small time mom-and-pop record company such as Edan have the
foresight to know Mike was going to be one of the Monkees and would be signed
to a long term deal with Screen Gems-Columbia Music?
Not very likely, so what we have here are several possible scenarios: the
Edan 45 was issued after Mike was signed as one of the Monkees and not in
September 1965 (as according to "The Monkees: A Manufactured Image") or the
Edan single was reissued after Mike was signed as one of the Monkees by Edan to
capitalize on Mike's increasing fame or the 45 was bootlegged at a later time.
Tackling the above scenarios one by one, it's possible the Edan single wasn't
released in September 1965 but at a later date, by which time Mike was signed
to SGC Music and that company had acquired the songs which were published by
other companies.
But, assuming the Edan 45 was released in September 1965, it's also possible
that company could've reissued the 45 later on after the Monkees started having
success. Nothing quite like capitalizing on the success of others and hoping
for a free ride as a result of that success.
The big problem with the above is that Edan was a very small company and the
owners weren't very likely to bet away the family jewels by mass marketing the
single they happened to have on Mike after the Monkees had had some success.
Edan could've licensed the single to another company, much in the same manner
that Challenge Records licensed the rights to the two Micky Dolenz singles to a
Canadian company after the Monkees had hits with "Clarksville" and "Believer."
The difference there was the Canadian company put the singles out with their
label and logos, and not the Challenge labels.
If Edan licensed the rights to Mike's single to another company, would part
of the deal have included the single could only be released with the Edan
label? When you look at the Edan label, it's not a very imaginative label at
all - kind of a pedestrian label, but that was indicative of the fact the
company was a mom-and-pop record company.
It's also possible the label could have been a vanity label - that is, Mike
could have obtained enough money to have put out the record himself. That
could explain the story on why Mike was having money troubles before he was
signed as one of the Monkees.
As to the possibilities of someone bootlegging the Edan single: the late 70s
and the 80s saw the release of several bootleg recordings on the Monkees. While
most people tend to think it's only albums that are the domain of the
bootleggers, there were some bootleggers who specialized in bootlegging 45s.
When Linda Ronstadt recorded a version of Elvis's "Love Me Tender," she
recorded the song in the same key as Elvis's version. Several radio stations
managed to blend the two versions into one and created a sensation in the
process. Both RCA and Asylum wanted to put the duet version out but for that to
have happened, one label had to give in to the other label. Neither label gave
in and the Elvis and Linda version was never released officially. The number of
bootlegged versions was truly astounding as various bootleggers tried to get
the two versions in sync - none of them quite succeeded but that didn't stop
them from pressing up more than a thousand copies, with hopes of obtaining a
little bit of wealth. By some accounts, there were more than 100,000 bootlegged
copies of the Elvis/Linda duet floating around in the late 70s and early 80s.
The conventional wisdom by *experts* within the entertainment industry in the
70s and 80s on the Monkees was that they were history, no one cared about them
and any reference to them was either scorn, ridicule or embarrassment.
While a few bucks could be made at their expense (witness the 1971 Bell album
"Re-Focus," reissued by Arista in 1976 as "The Monkees' Greatest Hits" ), the
Monkees were dead, figuratively speaking, and there was no chance for them to
rise from the ashes.
It was about this time that various titled bootlegs started appearing and
while the concentration was on the albums, it's possible some of the bootleg
action could have been some 45s. The original Monkee albums were beginning to
command high prices, especially for the rare stuff but what might have been
more surprising was the pre-Monkee singles were commanding even higher prices
than the Monkee albums.
Dealers were generally asking a minimum of $50 for any of the albums from the
"Head" soundtrack through "A Barrelful of Monkees" - higher if they could get
it (and they sometimes did). The dealers were asking as much for the pre-Monkee
singles although the Mike singles were the exceptions; the dealers were asking
more than $100 for the Omnibus and Edan singles.
And the strange thing is, quite a few dealers seemed to have a lot of copies
of the Edan single. To be asking $100 per copy seemed out of line as it
suggested the single wasn't really all that rare.
But, the fact of the matter is there were a few dealers who also were
bootleggers - the high prices for Monkee albums and singles, as well as
pre-Monkee related recordings would have made it very tempting for
dealers/bootleggers to bootleg the original recording and print up labels
bearing the Edan label and sell it at a higher rate than what a bootlegged 45
would sell for - the Elvis/Linda bootleg 45 mentioned above, for instance, was
being sold for five to ten dollars.
But, the problem with dealers/bootleggers in those days is they counted on
the fans as not being very smart about the writing and publishing credits.
Another Elvis bootleg featured the duet with Ann Margret on a song from "Viva
Las Vegas" that wasn't released by RCA until the late 80s or early 90s. The
bootleggers listed the composers as E. Presley-A.M. Olsson and the publisher as
Elvis Presley Music. The song was actually written by Roy C. Bennett and Sid
Tepper and published by Elvis's other publishing company, Gladys Music.
Bootleggers try to make the information look as authentic as possible. Monkee
albums were easily obtainable from dealers or could be found at garage sales,
flea markets or the Salvation Army. For the bootlegger, if Mike Nesmith's songs
are shown as being published by Screen Gems-Columbia Music, then it must be
that all of his songs were published by Screen Gems-Columbia Music. Would a
fan know any differently? (Sure, some of us would but others didn't care or
were simply casual fans with an interest in Mike and they wanted the single
because of that interest.)
As to whether Mike's Edan single was bootlegged, it's altogether possible.
One sure way to tell whether a copy of the single is legit or bootlegged (aside
from having wrong information in the credits) is the sound quality of the 45.
This goes on the supposition that the bootlegger does not actually own an
original copy of the 45 but has obtained the songs by another method, possibly
cassette tape - very few bootlegs had superior sound quality. Most bootlegs
have fair to poor sound quality - I've never heard a bootleg yet that I would
class as having excellent sound quality.
JoeAlterio
and about the Edan 45 in particular. He briefly talked about how the 45s came
to be, and was quite obviously aware of the Edan 45 (even referencing the flip
side)...thus, I would have to argue that it can't be a boot.
Also, the 45 is somewhat common as a "Not For Sale" item. However, I have a
stock copy (and have seen others). Regardless whether they are promos or stock
copies, they all have SG publishing on them. This fact makes it unlikely that
they are boots, unless the bootleggers went to all the trouble of making a
whole stack of promos, then making another (smaller) stack of 45s that would
not have the "Not For Sale" type on them.
Also, the fact that the authors of "Manufactured Image" had a release month for
the 45 would indicate that there was an official pressing. If a boot was made
from the official pressing, AND the boot used a different publisher id, then
there would be "originals" still floating around with the "correct" id. Of
course, if the release date is erroneous, then I would have to admit there is a
definite possibility that this may be a post-'66 pressing.....but not a
bootleg.
Just my thoughts...and this is a great thread!
Joe
julima
I have several "promotional only" 45's (not The Monkees) that were not intended
to be sold. The promotional copies were sent out to radio stations with a note
from the producer to consider to play the 45 in hopes of making the
record/artist a hit. Most of mine are not even one hit wonders...
CatGOD29
>days,
>and about the Edan 45 in particular. He briefly talked about how the 45s came
>to be, and was quite obviously aware of the Edan 45 (even referencing the
>flip
>side)...thus, I would have to argue that it can't be a boot.
>
The only reason I suspected some copies of the Edan 45 being a boot was
because of the publishing reading Screen Gems Music. If this 45 was released in
September 1965 as indicated in "The Monkees: A Manufactured Image," is it
possible Nesmith had already been signed up for the show or that the
indications were so strong that he would be signed on for the show that Screen
Gems-Columbia went ahead and signed him on as one of their writers? In Davy's
first semi-autobiography, there's a brief snippet of a letter which indicates
Screen Gems TV and SGC Music were going to spend $5,000 to buyout Nez's
contract from Randy Sparks and the publishing Sparks owned on Nez's songs.
I don't own the pre-Monkee recordings by Mike - wish I did, but the Edan 45
struck me as being somewhat odd that the publishing read Screen Gems while
Nez's two singles for Colpix listed the publishing as Real Blue Music - if
anything, the Colpix 45s should've listed Screen Gems-Columbia on Nez's songs.
Course, if Nez was signed to Screen Gems-Columbia before he auditioned for
the Monkees, it's possible SGC Music might have directed Nez to the auditions
and not Randy Sparks as has been reported over the years.
Course, Davy has said he was already part of the project when the others
auditioned and that he was present at Mike's audition. But, what if the
auditions were just a ruse for the most part and Davy, Mike and Micky were
already signed for the TV show with Peter being the last to sign on at the end
of 1965? Monkee history in need of revision possibly?
>Also, the 45 is somewhat common as a "Not For Sale" item. However, I have a
>stock copy (and have seen others). Regardless whether they are promos or
>stock
>copies, they all have SG publishing on them. This fact makes it unlikely that
>they are boots, unless the bootleggers went to all the trouble of making a
>whole stack of promos, then making another (smaller) stack of 45s that would
>not have the "Not For Sale" type on them.
>
Actually, boots isn't the proper, legal definition - the legal definition is
pirating. For me, it's a matter of semantics whether a recording is bootlegged,
which refers to unauthorized release of recordings or pirated - refers to
counterfeit copies of authorized recordings - this was how the RSO record label
was done in, in the late 70s and early 80s. Two million copies of the
horrendous "Sgt. Pepper" soundtrack was pressed up but more than *four
million!* copies were returned to RSO as unsold! Officials with RSO had trouble
distinguishing official copies from the pirated version.
The number of copies pressed up on the Edan single runs anywhere from 2,000
to 20,000 copies, which was rather typical for a small record company (mom and
pop type companies). How likely was it that a single dealer of 45s and albums
could come across 100 copies of the Edan single in a storage building or a
warehouse? I remember seeing one such dealer advertise in either Goldmine or
Discoveries, claiming to have that many copies of the single in the early 80s
and asking $50 for each single.
But, there seemed to be quite a few dealers who had copies of that single -
fewer had the Omnibus single. Course, it's possible a dealer could've been
lucky and found a warehouse or storage building with a lot of copies of the
Edan 45 on Nez. I tend to think a person might be damned lucky to find a single
copy of either the Edan or Omnibus singles, but a lot of copies sitting in a
warehouse or storage building? In good to excellent condition? I wanna rub that
person's head, so some of their good fortune rubs off on me!
>Also, the fact that the authors of "Manufactured Image" had a release month
>for
>the 45 would indicate that there was an official pressing. If a boot was made
>from the official pressing, AND the boot used a different publisher id, then
>there would be "originals" still floating around with the "correct" id. Of
>course, if the release date is erroneous, then I would have to admit there is
>a
>definite possibility that this may be a post-'66 pressing.....but not a
>bootleg.
>
I think it's possible the release date could've been in error - very few
people knew about pre-Monkee singles from Mike. People knew Davy had a few
singles and album on Colpix and that Micky was rumored to have released a
single when he was part of the Missing Links and a couple of solo 45s, but
Mike's early recordings were never mentioned at all. It was only after he left
the Monkees that it became known that there had been a few recordings.
So, what are the chances of there being an obscure pre-Monkee single by Peter
floating around out there???
>Just my thoughts...and this is a great thread!
>
I agree - I first learned of Mike's pre-Monkee singles in '79 when they were
being offered for sale in Goldmine by various dealers. I didn't know about Mike
having singles out on Edan, Omnibus or Colpix until then and it was somewhat
startling. The record dealers listed the dates as 1963 for the Omnibus single
and "circa 1965" for the Edan single.
Also in '79, all of Mike's post-Monkees albums which I didn't have, I managed
to finally complete and the mail order company I got them from had a recording
by Denny Ebza and the Goldens, performing a Mike song - "Go Somewhere and Cry,"
which the mail order company said also included Mike playing *sagebrush* guitar
(whatever that is) and whistling. I didn't know about that one either and
regret that I didn't have enough money to get the album.
(Don't know if that great mail order company, Square Deal Records, is still
in business, but their prices couldn't be beat at the time. They had the
rarities, the albums you could never find in your own record stores - they had
all of Nez's post-Monkee recordings, whether it was his solo recordings or the
recordings he produced or released on Countryside or Pacific Arts for other
artists.)
If the Edan single was released in September of 1965 and Mike was signed to
Screen Gems-Columbia Music at that time, perhaps the history of the Monkees is
due for a revision. If any or all of the Monkees were already signed to Screen
Gems for the TV series and to SGC Music as songwriters, then it's possible the
story of the auditions was publicity designed to generate excitement and
interest in the show.
Not saying that's what happened but it wouldn't have been out of the ordinary
either for a TV-and-movie studio to have already signed the guys and use the
street auditions as a ruse to generate publicity.
Davi3d
wrote:
> If the Edan single was released in September of 1965 and Mike was signed to
>Screen Gems-Columbia Music at that time, perhaps the history of the Monkees is
>due for a revision. If any or all of the Monkees were already signed to Screen
>Gems for the TV series and to SGC Music as songwriters, then it's possible the
>story of the auditions was publicity designed to generate excitement and
>interest in the show.
> Not saying that's what happened but it wouldn't have been out of the ordinary
>either for a TV-and-movie studio to have already signed the guys and use the
>street auditions as a ruse to generate publicity.
You know, this brings up an interesting possibility, and one that has
lurked in the back of my mind for years. Davy has stated publicly on
many occasions that the Monkees show was created as a vehicle for him,
and that the rest were brought in through the casting process. His
"proof" of this was that he was already signed to Screen Gems. But
Mike was also releasing singles on Colpix, owned, of course, by
Columbia/Screen Gems, so who's to say that both Mike and Davy weren't
chosen for the show based on their Screen Gems contracts, with only
Micky & Peter coming in through the audition process? After all,
think about the screen tests - we have screen tests (undated and hard
to tell when they really happened) for Mike & Davy, but not for Micky
and Peter. Could those screen tests have taken place before the
auditions? Is it possible that half the Monkees were pre-cast based
on existing Screen Gems contracts? Could it be that Nez' frequent
anger was partially based on his being paid under an already existing
contract, which was, perhaps not equitable with the other three?
(Davy already had a Screen Gems contract - but Davy also already had a
manager and an agent to help get him better deals. It's unlikely that
Nez had any representation at all at the time.) It's all speculation,
of course, and probably all wrong, but interesting to cogitate on a
warm spring day...
d3
CatGOD29
>lurked in the back of my mind for years. Davy has stated publicly on
>many occasions that the Monkees show was created as a vehicle for him,
>and that the rest were brought in through the casting process. His
>"proof" of this was that he was already signed to Screen Gems. But
>Mike was also releasing singles on Colpix, owned, of course, by
>Columbia/Screen Gems, so who's to say that both Mike and Davy weren't
>chosen for the show based on their Screen Gems contracts, with only
>Micky & Peter coming in through the audition process? After all,
>think about the screen tests - we have screen tests (undated and hard
>to tell when they really happened) for Mike & Davy, but not for Micky
>and Peter. Could those screen tests have taken place before the
>auditions? Is it possible that half the Monkees were pre-cast based
>on existing Screen Gems contracts? Could it be that Nez' frequent
>anger was partially based on his being paid under an already existing
>contract, which was, perhaps not equitable with the other three?
>(Davy already had a Screen Gems contract - but Davy also already had a
>manager and an agent to help get him better deals. It's unlikely that
>Nez had any representation at all at the time.) It's all speculation,
>of course, and probably all wrong, but interesting to cogitate on a
>warm spring day...
>
>d3
When you read Bill Chadwick's foreward in "The Monkees - A Manufactured
Image," he was of the opinion that Davy and Micky seemed to have the inside
track for the possibility of landing the roles, with Screen Gems auditioning
the others for the two remaining roles to complete the then-soon to be quartet.
Davy's manager was Ward Sylvester at the time and I believe Sylvester was
credited in the show as an assistant producer or was working with a similar
credited title.
I always believed Davy was trying to blow smoke up everyone's a**, with his
claim that "The Monkees" was designed as a star vehicle for him. To this day, I
believe that story to be partially true; maybe he was the first one signed but
"The Monkees" designed as a star vehicle for Davy - somehow, I think if that
was totally true, Bob Rafelson and Bert Schneider would've simply picked three
less interesting actors to fill out the roles and Davy could've had all of the
lead vocals and Don Kirshner would've been employed with Columbia Pictures and
Screen Gems TV for several years.
In a sense, Davy's story reminds me of the story told by Sherwood Schwartz
about his show, "Gilligan's Island." Sherwood was interviewed on TV a few years
back and related the story of how actress Tina Louise thought that *she* was
supposed to be the star of "Gilligan's Island." Sherwood had to explain to her
that the name of the show was "Gilligan's Island" and not "Ginger's Island"
(and from what I gather, he explained this to her not in a very diplomatic way
- apparently, she had been a pain in the a** all during the time the show was
in production).
I think Randy Sparks represented Mike in some capacity as a manager. As far
as the songs owned by Sparks via Real Blue Music, I just re-read the snippet of
the letter in Davy's book and it mentioned Screen Gems-Columbia at the time
would acquire twelve songs from Sparks that Mike had written, so there wasn't
that many songs.
According to Monkee legend, Mike is the only one who saw the infamous ad -
Tork learned about the auditions from Stills, Dolenz says he had a private
audition and Jones of course, connected through Sylvester. But, Mike said in an
interview it was Sparks who saw the ad and sent him to the auditions.
I've always wondered about that - I've always understood Sparks was a bit of
a folkie and the kind of people who were into that tended to be ultra-purists.
So it didn't really make sense for Sparks, who would've been the kind to frown
upon the whole idea of the Monkees.
But, I also remember reading Sparks was into making money, so he might have
seen "The Monkees" as a golden opportunity to make some big bucks.
But, that raises the question that if he did see "The Monkees" as a golden
opportunity, why did he sell Mike's contract for $5,000?
According to Monkee legend, Micky's and Davy's paths crossed occasionally
when both were auditioning for roles on various TV shows, while Mike and Peter
knew each other from the club scene although it's claimed they were just casual
acquaintances.
If Bob Rafelson was making the club scene as he's so often claimed, isn't it
possible he could've seen Mike, Peter and Stephen Stills at one of the clubs
and figured one or more might work well together for the show? And similarly,
could Rafelson or Schneider have seen Dolenz and Jones together and figured
those two could work together as well?
Stephen Stills of course, was ruled out because of bad teeth and a receding
hair line and so goes the legend, Stills passed the bone to his buddy, Peter,
who looked like him but was slightly better looking.
Perhaps this is all mindless speculation and maybe the four were chosen from
the auditions, but to this day, I still believe the story as we know it is
incomplete or had the best PR spin put on the story to make it seem like the
four were handpicked from the auditions (keep in mind the Screen Gems PR dream
factory came up with a story about how Davy had been a very successful jockey
in England, making several thousand dollars...or pounds).
Estrella
>Image," he was of the opinion that Davy and Micky seemed to have the inside
>track for the possibility of landing the roles, with Screen Gems auditioning
>the others for the two remaining roles to complete the then-soon to be
quartet.
> Davy's manager was Ward Sylvester at the time and I believe Sylvester was
>credited in the show as an assistant producer or was working with a similar
>credited title.
> I always believed Davy was trying to blow smoke up everyone's a**, with his
>claim that "The Monkees" was designed as a star vehicle for him. To this day,
I
>believe that story to be partially true; maybe he was the first one signed
but
>"The Monkees" designed as a star vehicle for Davy - somehow, I think if that
>was totally true, Bob Rafelson and Bert Schneider would've simply picked
three
>less interesting actors to fill out the roles and Davy could've had all of
the
>lead vocals and Don Kirshner would've been employed with Columbia Pictures
and
>Screen Gems TV for several years.
I've always gotten the impression that Davy was picked very early, and Ward
was bought out of his contract with Davy as his manager (like how Micky
claimed that B&B wanted to buy out his contract) and for some reason was
given
the opportunity as Associate Producer, probably because of his work
experience/connections(?).
See below for my opinion on why Davy probably felt "The Monkees" was a
vehicle
for his career.
>In a sense, Davy's story reminds me of the story told by Sherwood Schwartz
>about his show, "Gilligan's Island." Sherwood was interviewed on TV a few
years
>back and related the story of how actress Tina Louise thought that *she* was
>supposed to be the star of "Gilligan's Island." Sherwood had to explain to
her
>that the name of the show was "Gilligan's Island" and not "Ginger's Island"
>(and from what I gather, he explained this to her not in a very diplomatic
way
>- apparently, she had been a pain in the a** all during the time the show was
>in production).
Well, he doesn't quite put the pain part so emphatically in his book "Inside
Gillian's Island" (which btw has one biased Monkee reference). :) But yeah,
he talks about how Louise thought the show centered around her; somebody
somewhere sold her the line about a movie star stranded on an island with
*six
other people*.
I'm wondering if the way the pilot was written confused Davy's hindsight.
Here we have four boys whose adventures do not center around them trying to
pay the rent to get Mr. Babbit of their back, or fleeing from a mad
scientist
who wants their music abilities, but instead about a young street musician
trying to get in good with this girl's father and his pad mates trying to
help
his situation. Okay, the gig is a big deal to all four of them, but it was
Davy and his starry eyes that got them into the problem in the first place.
Not a knock on Davy per se, just the story (minus the screen tests) can be
seen as centered around the Davy character and his angst while the others
were
supporting characters in the pilot. Being in a pilot like that, being
picked
early and also being told the show was for him could have confused him, but
we
won't know for certain how or who the show was being created.
> If Bob Rafelson was making the club scene as he's so often claimed, isn't
it
>possible he could've seen Mike, Peter and Stephen Stills at one of the clubs
>and figured one or more might work well together for the show? And similarly,
>could Rafelson or Schneider have seen Dolenz and Jones together and figured
>those two could work together as well?
> Stephen Stills of course, was ruled out because of bad teeth and a receding
>hair line and so goes the legend, Stills passed the bone to his buddy, Peter,
>who looked like him but was slightly better looking.
In the "HHWTM" book, Stephen Stills says that he was honestly not really
interested in being in the show, but he was willing to write songs. So he
mentioned Peter for the acting role because he looked like Stills. The tale
of the inception of this series gets spun in so many interesting ways!
APSAND
originally appeared on Omnibus - it is totally legitimate and not a bootleg. It
was most likely issued between early 1966 and mid 1966, at the time Michael was
still performing as a solo act at the Troubadour even while the Monkees began
improv training. It is very possible the Edan single was issued by his then
manager Bob Krasnow. The Edan single does not feature How Can You Kiss Me but
instead a non-Nesmith flipside: Curson Terrace.
Andrew Sandoval