OT - Stuff I Listen To That Doesn't Give Me Migranes

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Doug Boucher

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May 8, 2003, 9:56:49 PM5/8/03
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OK, so those nice young gentlemen in Meshuggah have kept me entertained with
their delightful little jigs today, but now I'm back to the shit I've been
listening to the most in the past couple weeks.

I've been WAY into an English/Irish/Scottish/whatever folk/folk-rock phase
lately. I mentioned listening to Fairport Convention, Liege & Lief is still
kicking my ass left and right. So I went crazy on my two libraries' online
catalogs and reserved a pile of other cool shit. I'd already got some
compilations of the "traditional" stuff, which I've been digging a lot.
Gotta hear the "real* stuff, ya know. But I really wanted to hear some of
these folk-rock guys too. My idea of British folk-rock has always been
Jethro Tull, who I adore. In fact, a couple of their folkier albums are due
to be remastered and reissued in a couple weeks. Anybody into prog or
folk-rock who doens't own Tull's Heavy Horses owes it to yourself to check
it out. The title tune might be my favortie Tull song. The new version will
have some bonus tracks (stuff from the 20-year box set, I imagine) and I've
been really impressed with the Tull remasters that have been coming out
recently anyway. I think Songs From The Wood is one of the other ones due
out soon (A Passion Play being the other, and THAT album is a fucking
experience) so check that out too.

Damn, those two Vicodins are kicking in. OK, I'm officially fucked up right
now. Excuse me if my writing gets even stupider and more self-important than
it usually does. Bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...........................

Anyway, I'm listening to Steeleye Span right now. An album from 1990 called
Please To See The King. The rock element is almost not even there, this
sounds like serious hardore limey folk music to me. (No offense to you
limeys. I love you people, you do 75% of my favorite music and I wish I was
one of you, except that your food sucks. Well, I almost AM one of you,
probably 2/3rds of my family background is Irish, so I guess it was only a
matter of time before I got into this shit, right? I'm from Indiana, we're
kinda sheltered there, and nobody even knows what the fuck Guinness is.)
Where was I? Oh yeah, Steeleye Span. I like this shit a lot. Anybody got any
suggestions for more of these guys' albums? The library also has Hark! The
Village Wait, which I'll be listneing to soon. Both these albums are early
'90s. Since I automatically assume that any British band from the 60s/70s
gets worse over time (I mean, I usually listen to prog-rock, and you KNOW
what those bastards ended up doing. Mike Rutherford is currently writing for
the Backstreet Boys, I hear. No, really. I wouldn't make this shit up. Not
that it surprises me, you know.), I'd REALLY like to hear Span's old stuff,
because this newer shit kicks ass.

I also got a pile of Pentangle, who I heard one album of years ago. And a
two-for-one CD of John Renbourn solo stuff. I also have a Bert Jansch
cassette around here somewhere, so I'm slightly familiar with Pentangle.

The Strawbs too. Again, I've heard a couple albums, but I am finally digging
deeper. From The Witchwood seems to be a highly regarded on, and I like it
bunches. I got the album they did with Sandy Denny, which I havne't listened
to yet, but that woman had an unbelievable voice, so I'm looking forward to
that. I have a three-CD comp of hers on reserve, still waiting for it.

Anyway, any comments from anybody about this stuff? I'm loving it. I'd be
loving it more, but I just started sweating my ass off and my head hurts.
Fucking painkillers. Time to go lay in a dark room and mutter lines from old
Cheech & Chong bits to myself.

Dave's not here,
Dougie
NP John Renbourn - self-titled (Great fucking guitar stuff.)
--
"No weekend is complete without me
dropping trou every three seconds"
- Nancy Lerch


Fastbulb

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May 8, 2003, 9:58:01 PM5/8/03
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>I've been WAY into an English/Irish/Scottish/whatever folk/folk-rock phase
>lately.

If you want to go a step or two towards more "traditional" versions of these,
here's a couple to check out:

any album at all by Planxty

the greatest hits compilation of Silly Wizard (or, look for whichever album has
"Donald Where's Your Trousers?" on it)

John Renbourn

I was big into Celtic music in grad school - still got a pretty sigificant
stack of it on vinyl, but haven't listened to a lot of it in years. Gotta dig
out the Planxty records sometime soon.

da9ve

Fastbulb

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May 8, 2003, 10:19:08 PM5/8/03
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>Oh yeah, Steeleye Span. I like this shit a lot. Anybody got any
>suggestions for more of these guys' albums? The library also has Hark! The
>Village Wait, which I'll be listneing to soon.

Those are both good, but you'll also need _Parcel of Rogues_ (the one with
Alison Gross on it - I *think* that's the title; when I first heard the album I
thought, "hm, so it's like Jethro Tull without the drums"), _Ten Man Mop, or
Mr. Reservoir Butler Rides Again_ (one of the best album titles ever), _Below
the Salt_, _Now We Are Six_, and possibly _Storm Force 10_ or _Tempted and
Tried_, in roughly that order. _Portfolio_ is a darn good compilation - and
there seem to be more compilations than orginal albums in their discography.
I've got most of their stuff up to the early 90's, but I kinda trailed off
after that.

I see I didn't read far enough in your post before my first reply - you already
have John Renbourn on the list. You'll need _Black Balloon_ - and play the
title track rather loud. Also _Lady and the Unicorn_, and _Sir John A Lot
of..._ (can't remember the rest of the title of that one) and, I *think*, the
_Live in America_ one - if I remember right, that's the 2LP live one I have
that kicked my ass.

da9ve

Andy @ Beefyogurt.com

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May 9, 2003, 9:37:07 AM5/9/03
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"Doug Boucher" <ilike...@thisbetternotbearealdomainname.com> wrote in
message news:BVDua.18344$VP.23...@twister.neo.rr.com...

>Anybody into prog or
> folk-rock who doens't own Tull's Heavy Horses owes it to yourself to check
> it out. The title tune might be my favortie Tull song. The new version
will
> have some bonus tracks (stuff from the 20-year box set, I imagine) and
I've
> been really impressed with the Tull remasters that have been coming out
> recently anyway. I think Songs From The Wood is one of the other ones due
> out soon (A Passion Play being the other, and THAT album is a fucking
> experience) so check that out too.

Holy mother that is all holy and crap and stuff! I did not realize that they
were remastering Heavy Horses. A friend of mine and I, in quite the drunken
stupor, were having a bidding war over how much we would pay for a new
mastering of that album. The current release, to put it politely, sucks the
left nut of an irate leprous donkey.

Heavy Horses is an album that is required listening for cold winter nights
(along with Joni's Hejira). Try it with a fine scotch, a cigar and a roaring
blaze dangerously close to setting fire to the rug and I'm sure you'll
agree. If not, rinse and repeat. Eventually the truth of this idea will ring
true through your drunken, smoked, third degree burned body. Or something.

I am so excited.


--
-------------
| Andy Henry (an...@beefyogurt.com)
| http://www.beefyogurt.com
| mmmm.... beefygoodness


Doug Boucher

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May 9, 2003, 2:49:44 PM5/9/03
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"Andy @ Beefyogurt.com" <an...@beefyogurt.com> wrote

> Holy mother that is all holy and crap and stuff! I did not realize that
they
> were remastering Heavy Horses.

Yep, they've been working through the whole catalog three at a time. This
Was, Stand Up, and Benefit came together, then War Child, Minstrel In The
Gallery, and Too Old To Rock And Roll late last year. They've already done
Thick As A Brick and Aqualung a few years ago. (Though it wouldn't really
hurt to do them again.)

Anyway, Heavy Horses, Songs From The Wood, and A Passion Play are out in a
few weeks. I assume they'll keep coming out three at a time for a while, and
I *hope* they do Living In The Past. Some of the tunes from that are bonus
tracks on the remastered early albums, but that doesn't cover the whole
album and they NEED to have that out there among the other reissues too.
You're right about Heavy Horses, it's a wonderful album, and it seems nobody
outside of hardcore Tull freaks realizes that.

I see Ian's working on another solo album, and the next Tull record will be
a Christmas album due out in November. I'm generally terrified of rock
people doing Chrismas music, but I think this one should be pretty neat.
Some new tunes, some traditional stuff, a couple rearranged "classical"
pieces, and re-worked versions of the Christmas-ish tunes they've done in
the past. Tull haven't truly knocked me on my ass for years, but they're
still turning out nice work, and doing it without the seemingly
self-conscious attempts at nostalgia that Yes have been doing, and without
the Goddammit We Still Rule the Cosmos And Don't You Fucking Forget It
attitude of recent Crimson. Then again, they're also playing it a lot safer
than those guys, but what the fuck. Ian's still Ian, and I love him for it.

I really love Jethro Tull,
Dougie

TAPKAE

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May 9, 2003, 5:22:38 PM5/9/03
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"Doug Boucher" fell for this old hogwash:


> Anyway, Heavy Horses, Songs From The Wood, and A Passion Play are out in a
> few weeks. I assume they'll keep coming out three at a time for a while, and
> I *hope* they do Living In The Past. Some of the tunes from that are bonus
> tracks on the remastered early albums, but that doesn't cover the whole
> album and they NEED to have that out there among the other reissues too.
> You're right about Heavy Horses, it's a wonderful album, and it seems nobody
> outside of hardcore Tull freaks realizes that.

SFTW and HH are among my fave Tull. Though I still dig A like a
motherfucker. I think Under Wraps has a lot going for it in ways that are
hard to explain to many people. I think Ian's songwriting chops and some
sort of expertise come across in that album. Listening to other electronic
pop albums from that period, it seems that Ian's more mature songwriting is
still present, even though the sounds are decidedly not what made the most
impact. I love songs like European Legacy and Nobody's Car and Heat. I also
have a great feeling when Tundra and Apogee are on. I like more of that
album than I like TOTRnR,TYTD, or even Minstrel, though I love Black Satin
Dancer and Cold Wind to Valhalla more and more. Warchild ranks similarly.

I had a binge last year, reading all the song notes on Cupofwonder.com and
listening to all the stuff in a shorter amount of time. I was quite
impressed with the body of work as a whole, with certain themes appearing
and reappearing, and maturing as time went on. Its almost like the body of
work for almost 35 years has been the symphonic element to Tull. The themes
on Heavy Horses and Stormwatch seem to foreshadow a few things that are
coming to pass at the present. The references to oil issues, environmental
crisis, depression, etc. Some of that is all too familiar now. I suppose
anyone could point to a current event or trend and dig up some past
prediction, so take that with a grain of salt. But I have heard Ian talk
often of his desire to make a difference in the world he inhabits. He'd
rather employ a number of people from an economically depressed area with
the fish farms than take all the adulation and awards he could get as a
professional musician. I find him to be a man with some real integrity. And
perhaps knowing that makes the music even more interesting and inviting.


> Tull haven't truly knocked me on my ass for years, but they're still turning
> out nice work, and doing it without the seemingly self-conscious attempts at
> nostalgia that Yes have been doing, and without the Goddammit We Still Rule
> the Cosmos And Don't You Fucking Forget It attitude of recent Crimson. Then
> again, they're also playing it a lot safer than those guys, but what the fuck.
> Ian's still Ian, and I love him for it.

KC still does rule the cosmos... The nice thing about the status of Tull at
present is that they donšt have critics to impress or avoid. They inhabit a
place that some won't ever get to. My only wish is that Ian's voice was
better. I think around the Under Wraps years, he wanted to get into some new
stylings, and that was the thing that started to ruin his voice. As a
result, some things he might like to do are not really worth trying for. The
riff on El Nino was pretty unexpected though, so at least Tull aren't asleep
at the wheel entirely.


> I really love Jethro Tull,

Me too. I've gotten the most mileage from them over the years. Its sort of a
shame that whatever happened with JHS killed the ties between Tull and
Keneally. Man, somehow, that would have been something to see develop.


--e

http://tapkae.com
"Speak truth to Power."
J.B. Kiesling for President, 2004


scott ventura

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May 9, 2003, 6:21:24 PM5/9/03
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message news:cLSua.23187$VP.30...@twister.neo.rr.com...

>....and without the Goddammit We Still Rule the Cosmos And Don't You


Fucking Forget It
> attitude of recent Crimson.


Yeah, but they do.....


sv
crimsonfreak

--
. "But you should sit unmovingly and silently in front of the grumpy old man
in the blue-dark because, if he manages to live until the end of the show,
he might be mean to you and spit on your foot. "

Robert Fripp


yirm

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May 9, 2003, 6:43:12 PM5/9/03
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"scott ventura" <scottv...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ERVua.272647$Si4.2...@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net...

> . "But you should sit unmovingly and silently in front of the grumpy old
man
> in the blue-dark because, if he manages to live until the end of the show,
> he might be mean to you and spit on your foot. "
>
> Robert Fripp

That's hilarious.

-jf


Brian Bernardini

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May 9, 2003, 6:48:22 PM5/9/03
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In article <b9hatr$336$1...@bob.news.rcn.net>,
"yirm" <yirm....@antispam.tiferet.com> wrote:

I think Fripp could be the next Bill Hicks, without all the smoking and
pussy jokes.

-B


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Doug Boucher

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May 9, 2003, 7:06:02 PM5/9/03
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"scott ventura" <scottv...@hotmail.com> wrote

> >....and without the Goddammit We Still Rule the Cosmos And Don't You
> Fucking Forget It
> > attitude of recent Crimson.
>
> Yeah, but they do.....

Hehe. More of an observation than actual criticism. And hey, the new album
does kick ass. I think they're slightly desparate to not look like the old
men they are, but what good is rock and roll without the desire to live
forever? :)

Doug Boucher

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May 9, 2003, 7:09:11 PM5/9/03
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"Brian Bernardini" <bbern...@comLOOKATTHATcast.net> wrote

> I think Fripp could be the next Bill Hicks, without all the smoking and
> pussy jokes.

Goodbye you "Lizard" scum?

Wondering if Fripp is one of the Hooligans,

scott ventura

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May 9, 2003, 7:42:37 PM5/9/03
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message news:uvWua.23287$VP.32...@twister.neo.rr.com...

> I think they're slightly desparate to not look like the old
> men they are


No doubt. Michael has made the observation that Adrian is beginning to
resemble Wavy Gravy.

Yikes.


sv

Doug Boucher

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May 9, 2003, 11:43:00 PM5/9/03
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"Fastbulb" <fast...@aol.com> wrote

> the greatest hits compilation of Silly Wizard (or, look for whichever
album has
> "Donald Where's Your Trousers?" on it)

I found one CD of theirs, btu I don't think that's on it. I'll be getting it
soon.

> John Renbourn

This CD I got has two albums on it. Ones just called John Renbourn, the
other Another Monday. It's pretty fucking excellent. I also have a Mel Bay
book he did on Medieval and Renaissance music arranged for guitar.

> I was big into Celtic music in grad school - still got a pretty sigificant
> stack of it on vinyl, but haven't listened to a lot of it in years. Gotta
dig
> out the Planxty records sometime soon.

I'll have to look into Planxty, I came up zero on the library searches. But
I gotta tell you, I'm listening to a Pentangle compilation called Light
Flight right now, and my ass is being handed to me. Some of it is folk-rock,
some is more like acoustic jazz-rock-folk-whatthefuck, but godDAMN it's
great shit. Everybody plays and sings their asses off. Love love love it yes
I do do do.

Dougie


Doug Boucher

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May 9, 2003, 11:53:42 PM5/9/03
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"Fastbulb" <fast...@aol.com> wrote

> >Oh yeah, Steeleye Span. I like this shit a lot. Anybody got any
> >suggestions for more of these guys' albums? The library also has Hark!
The
> >Village Wait, which I'll be listneing to soon.
>
> Those are both good,

And they're older than I thought. I was a bit confused by the dated artwork
and production, becuase the CDs say copyright '90 and '91, but it turns out
that they're actually their first two albums from the early 70s. So I lucked
out and heard the original stuff. It's wonderful, by the way.

> but you'll also need _Parcel of Rogues_ (the one with
> Alison Gross on it - I *think* that's the title; when I first heard the
album I
> thought, "hm, so it's like Jethro Tull without the drums"), _Ten Man Mop,
or
> Mr. Reservoir Butler Rides Again_ (one of the best album titles ever),
_Below
> the Salt_, _Now We Are Six_, and possibly _Storm Force 10_ or _Tempted and
> Tried_, in roughly that order. _Portfolio_ is a darn good compilation -
and
> there seem to be more compilations than orginal albums in their
discography.
> I've got most of their stuff up to the early 90's, but I kinda trailed off
> after that.

Ther'es an album from '96 called Time coming to me from the lirbary, the
only other one they have. Apparantly there was a compilation put otu last
year that's supposed to be really good too.

> I see I didn't read far enough in your post before my first reply - you
already
> have John Renbourn on the list. You'll need _Black Balloon_ - and play
the
> title track rather loud. Also _Lady and the Unicorn_, and _Sir John A Lot
> of..._ (can't remember the rest of the title of that one) and, I *think*,
the
> _Live in America_ one - if I remember right, that's the 2LP live one I
have
> that kicked my ass.

You have anything of Bert Jansch? I can't find the tape around here I had,
though I remember it being a bit too Windham Hill for my liking. (Of course,
Michael Hedges was on Windham hill, and he was God, so...) Again, my library
has one album, a best of. I'm digging him in Pentangle. I understand he was
Neil Young's other favorite guitar player (besides Hendrix) and I seem to
recall that one of Neil's songs (The Needle & The Damage Done? I can't
remember) was essentially lifted from something of Jansch.

Why do I always discover this cool shit 30 years after it was acutally done?
Dougie
NP Pentangle - Light Flight: The Anthology (Drooooool.....)


Bruce Anderson

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May 10, 2003, 12:32:05 AM5/10/03
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In article <cLSua.23187$VP.30...@twister.neo.rr.com>,
"Doug Boucher" <ilike...@thisbetternotbearealdomainname.com> wrote:

> I really love Jethro Tull,

Christ, get a room wouldja please?

b.

--
"[Commercial radio] is owned by one or two corporations now, and
they're not in the music business. They're in the advertising
business. So let's not kid ourselves. If you want to hear music, go
buy a guitar." - Elvis Costello

Doug Boucher

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May 10, 2003, 12:54:32 AM5/10/03
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"Bruce Anderson" <bwand...@youdontreallywantit.net> wrote

> > I really love Jethro Tull,
>
> Christ, get a room wouldja please?

There's so many possibilities for a brilliant and possibly utterly offensive
response to this, but for some rerason I'm coming up empty. Damn, I suck.

Dougie
NP Tom Waits - Bone Machine (Huhuhuh, he said 'bone", huhuhuh.)

Bruce Anderson

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May 10, 2003, 2:17:35 AM5/10/03
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In article <cC%ua.23669$VP.35...@twister.neo.rr.com>,
"Doug Boucher" <ilike...@thisbetternotbearealdomainname.com> wrote:

> "Bruce Anderson" <bwand...@youdontreallywantit.net> wrote
>
> > > I really love Jethro Tull,
> >
> > Christ, get a room wouldja please?
>
> There's so many possibilities for a brilliant and possibly utterly offensive
> response to this, but for some rerason I'm coming up empty. Damn, I suck.

That's why we love you, sweetie.

Andrew Jones

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May 10, 2003, 6:10:50 AM5/10/03
to
Dougie,

>
> Why do I always discover this cool shit 30 years after it was acutally done?
>
One of the eternal questions of life....

Andrew

--
Mike Keneally Toucan Club Cardiff 16 March 2003: I was there!

Doug Boucher

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May 10, 2003, 10:56:12 AM5/10/03
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"Andrew Jones" <not...@realaddress.com> wrote

> > Why do I always discover this cool shit 30 years after it was acutally
done?
> >
> One of the eternal questions of life....

It's probably because a.) I was 3 days old when half the cool music ever was
recorded, and b.) because there's too much cool shit to discover. There's
too much shit yet to discover from *300* years ago. Ain't music a cool
thing?

Dougie
--
My Blog Doesn't Suck Like Yours Does http://m-blog.com/pissshiver


Andrew Jones

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May 10, 2003, 11:59:21 AM5/10/03
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Dougie,

> It's probably because a.) I was 3 days old when half the cool music ever was
> recorded, and b.) because there's too much cool shit to discover. There's
> too much shit yet to discover from *300* years ago. Ain't music a cool
> thing?

Yeah!

The shame about it is that much of the coolest music seems to be hidden
from most folks' view- there's a world of music out there and the media
plays one village's output.

Bruce Anderson

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May 10, 2003, 12:32:22 PM5/10/03
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In article <not.my-D518D9....@news.news.demon.net>,
Andrew Jones <not...@realaddress.com> wrote:

> Dougie,
>
> > It's probably because a.) I was 3 days old when half the cool music ever was
> > recorded, and b.) because there's too much cool shit to discover. There's
> > too much shit yet to discover from *300* years ago. Ain't music a cool
> > thing?
>
> Yeah!
>
> The shame about it is that much of the coolest music seems to be hidden
> from most folks' view- there's a world of music out there and the media
> plays one village's output.

Curse those village people...

Dave Wilcher

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May 10, 2003, 12:48:11 PM5/10/03
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Bruce Anderson wrote:
> In article <not.my-D518D9....@news.news.demon.net>,
> Andrew Jones <not...@realaddress.com> wrote:
>
>> Dougie,
>>
>>> It's probably because a.) I was 3 days old when half the cool music
>>> ever was recorded, and b.) because there's too much cool shit to
>>> discover. There's too much shit yet to discover from *300* years
>>> ago. Ain't music a cool thing?
>>
>> Yeah!
>>
>> The shame about it is that much of the coolest music seems to be
>> hidden from most folks' view- there's a world of music out there and
>> the media plays one village's output.
>
> Curse those village people...

Remember: It takes a village..

Hillary
--
The best cure for the ills of democracy is more democracy. - Ed Abbey


Doug Boucher

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May 10, 2003, 1:34:48 PM5/10/03
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"Dave Wilcher" <dwi...@woh.rr.com> wrote

> > Curse those village people...
>
> Remember: It takes a village..
>
> Hillary

Village idiot?

Andrew Jones

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May 10, 2003, 2:45:21 PM5/10/03
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> >>
> >> The shame about it is that much of the coolest music seems to be
> >> hidden from most folks' view- there's a world of music out there and
> >> the media plays one village's output.
> >
> > Curse those village people...
>
> Remember: It takes a village..

In order to save the village, we had to destroy the village.

Doug Boucher

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May 10, 2003, 2:53:38 PM5/10/03
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"Andrew Jones" <not...@realaddress.com> wrote

> The shame about it is that much of the coolest music seems to be hidden
> from most folks' view- there's a world of music out there and the media
> plays one village's output.

Please forgive me, Andy. I've suddenly been struck by the insane desire to
take this one paragraph and jump off it into a sea of my own long-winded
shit. This is gonna take a while, make yourself comfortable. :)

Yeah, it's a shame, but I think there's a good side to it - the thrill of
discovery. When you manage to stumble over something for the first time, and
you know you got there because you went *looking* for it instead of waiting
for somebody to hand it to you, that's a nice thing. I've had that happen
recently with this folk-rock stuff I've been raving about. I had it happen
when I discovered Stereolab a few months ago. (What a rush THAT was.) Or
when I aksed a buddy if he knew anything about Todd Rundgren and he made me
a couple tapes that I played the fuck out of for a couple months. Or when I
stood in a field in the middle of a seemingly nowhere little burg called
Butler, Indiana and some goofy fucker with a green guitar ripped my head
off, tossed it to the birds (or maybe it was the KKK guys down the road he
threw it to), and literally knocked my ass right off the highway and onto a
much more scenic route. Inca Roads makes for good driving music on this road
too.

Long before I got online, I READ to be able to know what was out there.
Nobody told me shit. And even now in the Internet age, you can find out
about cool stuff through fine people like the ones right here on this
newsgroup, but it still feels like you did the work.

I can't fathom only knowing about music through radio or TV. One can blame
those forms of media for the dumbing down of culture, but a culture is made
up of PEOPLE and their work, and if people don't want anything other than
what is fed them, then what the fuck have you got? People are fucking lazy.
People WANT to be sheep. But then again, music isn't as important to most
people as it is to lunatics like us, so maybe being cynical about people's
ignorance isn't a terribly productive use of time either. Maybe people
*should* want more, *should* care more about these kind of things, but
everybody makes their own decisions. I'm no longer nearly as scared of
people's sheep-like musical tastes as I am the other shit they play "follow
the leader" to. It's all part of the same disease, granted, but until people
get their shit together on the big stuff (you know, food, crime, war, that
good stuff) I don't think I'm going to worry so much about some stupid
processed-cheese album selling zillions of copies. The best thing musicians
can do in this time is to forget about the Cheese Whiz and be as positive an
influence as possible and just let that contribution fall where it may, and
make whatever small difference it might. And those who aren't making that
music, but are the listeners (and let's face it, a lot of arty pretentious
muiscian fuckers like me have a tendency to forget that the audience is just
as important, because otherwise you're playing at a fucking wall, and that's
just jerking off) should turn it up louder. It's all good.

I used to be really cyncial about this stuff, and still am to some extent,
but I'm getting MORE cynical about supposedly enlightened musicians, about
people like ME. It's a much better use of my time to simply take care of MY
music/art/whatever interests, and maybe throw some suggestions out to guys
like you who share the same interests when I think I've found something
worth sharing with you or anybody else who might care. A high percentage of
the people who imagine themselves to be part of a "more artistic" or "more
progressive" subculture are fucking snobs, and I've been as guilty as
anyone. While we pontificate about The Horrible Decline Of Our Sacred Art
That Most People Are Too Stupid And Unenlightened To Understand The Majesty
Of, other people are living, breathing, fucking, and making...God
forbid...MUSIC. Maybe they're making shitty music, maybe it's merely bland
music, but they're DOING IT. And ya know what, they SHOULD. Maybe they're
doing what they're here to do. And meanwhile, here's idiots like me NOT
doing it, but just TALKING about it. Isn't THAT not every bit as
irresponsible, every bit as contributory to "decline" as anything else?
Shit, at least the Evil Greedy Big Bad Music Industry is pumping out
something people can DANCE to, can FUCK to. Or can get drunk and yell
"Freebird!" to, but I'm trying not to think about that. :)

And if people are dancing, fucking, and yelling for fucking Freebird, at
least they're not killing each other's asses. Well, I supposed you could
dance, fuck, yell Freebird, and fire automatic weapons at each other, but I
bet the automatic weapons are more the province of the guys yelling for
Freebird. As far as dancing and fucking goes, that's pretty cool, dontcha
think? Fucking, anyway. Fucking is cool. I like fucking. Fucking is a good
thing, a useful thing. It's good for the economy. And since dancing leads to
fucking (at least that's what the people at my Wesleyan church told me when
I was a kid, but those assholes apparantly think that dancing and fucking
are bad things, and I think somebody should yell "Freebird" and fire a few
automatic weapons at them) then maybe more of us arty types should try to do
some Arty Music That Leads To Dancing And Fucking, becuase it would be a
fuck of a lot more of a positive influence on society than running scales at
450BPM.

We're as bad as the industry, and in fact we're worse, because our heads our
shoved so far up our asses we've forgotten the very reason we're alive.
We're SCUM. We should be locked into a room full of Skynyrd-worshipping NRA
members and cornholed with the complete works of Rick Astley while the top
executives of Warner Brothers don cheerleader outfits and shout "Fuck the
artists! Fuck the artists!" while waving pom-poms made of thousand-dollar
bills. I realize that some of us think that's what they do to us anyway, but
that's because we're self-important, head-in-ass, scumfuck IDIOTS. We fuck
our own asses far more efficiently than the suits ever could. We shove the
double-headed dildo of Self-Worship and Self-Loathing (they are twins borne
of the same rancid uterus) as far up our hairy pompous asses as we possibly
can, all the while blaming Michael Bolton, Britney Spears, or whoever other
imaginary Source Of Ultimate Evil we can think of for the pain shooting
through our diseased digestive tracts. (Fed as they are by the shit we
constantly pull from our own toilets and happily shove back down our
throats, again and again until we think it tastes like chicken.) We are
PERVERTS. We are artistic mutant vampire scum, terrified of the light
emanating from the very albums we claim to be Better Than Yours, horrified
of what it might actually mean to pull that dildo out
(<schloooooooooooop!!!>), walk outside, and interact with actual human
beings, maybe even play 'em a tune on our collective washboards and
git-fiddles, because everybody KNOWS you don't get laid playing in 19/8, so
why not masturbate in our lonely little repressed rooms? What is there to
lose? Other than our souls, I mean. Come on, who needs a soul when you can
play that utterly bitchin' voicing for an Am7dim13aug79th chords? Shit,
jerking off is fun! I've got the crapal tunnel syndrome, pasty white skin,
and bad vision to prove it!

Jeezus, Doug. Where did you pull THAT shit from? Take some Vicodin, dude,
you're scary when you're sober and eating almost-healthy.

You know what Zappa quote I'm thinking about now? Not "I've been with Warner
Brothers for EIGHT FUCKING YEARS!" No, I'm thinking mroe along the lines of
"shut up and play yer guitar." Which sounds like a good fucking idea,
seeing as how I haven't shut up for one hell of a long post right now.

"The music industry" in the accepted use of that phrase is so far removed
from my thought processes that it might as well be the plumbing industry.
I'm also more wary of the Sub-Culture Of Perverted Scumfuck Artists, because
I'm not sure their speakers are wired properly. We're listening to a lot of
the same damn albums, but they're apparantly hearing some different tunes.
My speakers used to suck too, I'm trying to fix them a bit at a time. (It
seems to be a life-long process, maybe Fear and his co-workers at Radio
Shack might have a few tips for me.) Anybody who wants to live in that
world, well more power to ya, I guess. I'm having a good time here,
discovering old English folk-rock, overblown 1800s European dudes, and this
George Harrison album. I like it this way. I'm gonna pick up my guitar now.
I'll have to play quietly, because Katie has fallen asleep on the floor
behind me. Maybe I'll play something *she* can dance to (leave the logical
extension of this sentence to yourselves, goddammit) and then I'll have
REALLY done something good.

Music is beautiful. Too bad so many musicians are killing it.

Goddamn, I go on, don't I?
Dougie
NP George Harrison - Brainwashed (Sure it sounds like every other Geroge
Harrison album ever. But I'm THRILLED that he managed to make something this
warm and happy before he left us. I love it.)

Dave Wilcher

unread,
May 10, 2003, 3:23:50 PM5/10/03
to
Doug Boucher wrote:
> "Dave Wilcher" <dwi...@woh.rr.com> wrote
>
>>> Curse those village people...
>>
>> Remember: It takes a village..
>>
>> Hillary
>
> Village idiot?

I am no.. Ok, yes I am.

dave

Andrew Jones

unread,
May 10, 2003, 3:49:30 PM5/10/03
to
Dougie,

>
> > The shame about it is that much of the coolest music seems to be hidden
> > from most folks' view- there's a world of music out there and the media
> > plays one village's output.
>
> Please forgive me, Andy. I've suddenly been struck by the insane desire to
> take this one paragraph and jump off it into a sea of my own long-winded
> shit. This is gonna take a while, make yourself comfortable. :)

Well i must be insane to try to comment on this, but why let Mike Pierry
have all the fun. And anyway I'll listening to some 80s-90s Fairport
convention which while its not a patch on L&L, deserves to be cherished.
And fuck all those trendy writers in the guardian who thinks its not saf
to regard Fairport "cool" now (see
http://www.guardian.co.uk/arts/features/story/0,11710,938231,00.html
and shudder at the trendy folk "getting down")


>
> Yeah, it's a shame, but I think there's a good side to it - the thrill of
> discovery. When you manage to stumble over something for the first time, and
> you know you got there because you went *looking* for it instead of waiting
> for somebody to hand it to you, that's a nice thing. I've had that happen
> recently with this folk-rock stuff I've been raving about. I had it happen
> when I discovered Stereolab a few months ago. (What a rush THAT was.)

I know that feeling well, my best pal, Darling had been recommending
Stereolab to me for over two years and I finally got round to borrowing
"Emperor Tomato Ketchup" and second listen it clicked. but you have to
be open to this, who knows if I saw them on tv or on the radio and
disengaged from it.


Or
> when I aksed a buddy if he knew anything about Todd Rundgren and he made me
> a couple tapes that I played the fuck out of for a couple months.

Well Darling again, when I was about 16 played some Todd- probably "A
Wizard a True Star", as a result of his love of "Bat Out Of Hell" Since
then, I infected Jaan with the Todd virus, turns out he had heard some
Todd before but it had the wrong time for him.

>
> Long before I got online, I READ to be able to know what was out there.
> Nobody told me shit. And even now in the Internet age, you can find out
> about cool stuff through fine people like the ones right here on this
> newsgroup, but it still feels like you did the work.

When I was discovering music we had NME, Sounds, Kerrang!, Melody Maker
in the UK all with their own agendas, with the focus on the new and
instant with very little retrospection (the punk year zero ethos is
still a reality today in the UK press, but it was much, much worse
then). The standard of musical journalism is pretty low, with honourable
exceptions like Mojo (hint, hint, cover MK you fools- he's so right for
your audience) and Ptolemaic Terrascope.

And UK radio..... well I have no idea what its like now, but it was
pretty dreadful whenI listened to it in 80s and I know people in the US
are forcefed Stairway to Heaven and Freebird but over here, they are
songs you discover, which is why I still think Freebird is a pretty
wonderful piece of music.

>
> I can't fathom only knowing about music through radio or TV.

Well things could be much better- most of the decent TV music programmes
over here (on the main channels) are on after 11pm which means that the
young kids don't get exposed to cool music "by accident". There are lots
of people who care about music in the media but lets face it they're
marginalised by scheduling.

One can blame
> those forms of media for the dumbing down of culture, but a culture is made
> up of PEOPLE and their work, and if people don't want anything other than
> what is fed them, then what the fuck have you got? People are fucking lazy.
> People WANT to be sheep. But then again, music isn't as important to most
> people as it is to lunatics like us, so maybe being cynical about people's
> ignorance isn't a terribly productive use of time either.

Probably not, and I'm not a terribly good judge what is "commercial" or
appealing to the general public, but tell me true, aren't there some
wonderful rock and pop songs by say Mike or say Todd that people would
cream over if they got exposure. Or that people couldn't somehow relate
to Sandy Denny's voice. Or the once every two year breakout of someone
completely against the grain- eg Norah Jones- means that people are
ready to respond to a diverse set of music if they know what's out
there. Of course the message the record companies get is more female
singer-songwriter- jazz- hell no- acosutically types to be signed.

. And those who aren't making that
> music, but are the listeners (and let's face it, a lot of arty pretentious
> muiscian fuckers like me have a tendency to forget that the audience is just
> as important, because otherwise you're playing at a fucking wall, and that's
> just jerking off) should turn it up louder. It's all good.

Well playing at a wall was a double concept album, a live tour, a
feature film, a double live star packed live album and video, and a
double live album too. So the message is jerking off sells?

>
> I used to be really cyncial about this stuff, and still am to some extent,
> but I'm getting MORE cynical about supposedly enlightened musicians, about
> people like ME. It's a much better use of my time to simply take care of MY
> music/art/whatever interests, and maybe throw some suggestions out to guys
> like you who share the same interests when I think I've found something
> worth sharing with you or anybody else who might care. A high percentage of
> the people who imagine themselves to be part of a "more artistic" or "more
> progressive" subculture are fucking snobs, and I've been as guilty as
> anyone. While we pontificate about The Horrible Decline Of Our Sacred Art
> That Most People Are Too Stupid And Unenlightened To Understand The Majesty
> Of, other people are living, breathing, fucking, and making...God
> forbid...MUSIC. Maybe they're making shitty music, maybe it's merely bland
> music, but they're DOING IT. And ya know what, they SHOULD. Maybe they're
> doing what they're here to do. And meanwhile, here's idiots like me NOT
> doing it, but just TALKING about it. Isn't THAT not every bit as
> irresponsible, every bit as contributory to "decline" as anything else?
> Shit, at least the Evil Greedy Big Bad Music Industry is pumping out
> something people can DANCE to, can FUCK to. Or can get drunk and yell
> "Freebird!" to, but I'm trying not to think about that. :)

Well no-one is going to pay me good money or bad money to hear my
musical contributions because unlike 95% of this newsgroup I have no
musical talent, all I have is taste. In my case, my contribution to
western culture was arranging Mike's first UK gig and batheing in the
reflected glory. And frankly if someone else (like a real professional)
had been prepared to do that, then I would have sat right back.

And Freebird is a great song. And so is Whipping Post, but Frank Zappa
didn't write either of them.

>
> And if people are dancing, fucking, and yelling for fucking Freebird, at
> least they're not killing each other's asses. Well, I supposed you could
> dance, fuck, yell Freebird, and fire automatic weapons at each other, but I
> bet the automatic weapons are more the province of the guys yelling for
> Freebird.

Not here in Wales, we "Freebird" loving types are all peaceful hippies,
don't you know?

As far as dancing and fucking goes, that's pretty cool, dontcha
> think? Fucking, anyway. Fucking is cool. I like fucking.

Me too!


Fucking is a good
> thing, a useful thing. It's good for the economy.

I try not to think of the effect of me having sex on the economy, thank
you very much....

And since dancing leads to
> fucking (at least that's what the people at my Wesleyan church told me when
> I was a kid, but those assholes apparantly think that dancing and fucking
> are bad things, and I think somebody should yell "Freebird" and fire a few
> automatic weapons at them) then maybe more of us arty types should try to do
> some Arty Music That Leads To Dancing And Fucking, becuase it would be a
> fuck of a lot more of a positive influence on society than running scales at
> 450BPM.

You should try playing some tango then....

>
> We're as bad as the industry, ..... because everybody KNOWS you don't get laid playing in 19/8, so


> why not masturbate in our lonely little repressed rooms? What is there to
> lose? Other than our souls, I mean. Come on, who needs a soul when you can
> play that utterly bitchin' voicing for an Am7dim13aug79th chords? Shit,
> jerking off is fun! I've got the crapal tunnel syndrome, pasty white skin,
> and bad vision to prove it!

Me too! I have crapal tunnel syndr- now hold on, that's the Butetown
tunnel. Well you are right, mastubation is fun.


>
I'm gonna pick up my guitar now.
> I'll have to play quietly, because Katie has fallen asleep on the floor
> behind me. Maybe I'll play something *she* can dance to (leave the logical
> extension of this sentence to yourselves, goddammit) and then I'll have
> REALLY done something good.

Raising Katie right is a good thing- the most important task you have,
Dougie


>
> Dougie
> NP George Harrison - Brainwashed (Sure it sounds like every other Geroge
> Harrison album ever. But I'm THRILLED that he managed to make something this
> warm and happy before he left us. I love it.)

So I should go out and buy the damn thing then?


Ok, taking this post to a different place..... I'm a music fan and a
comics fan. What I've noticed over the years about both is that there
are many parallels in those people's lives- the years of teenage
alienation from their peer group which extends into their twenties, the
need to find and make linkages between creators, the need to read as
much as they can about the "history" of their interests etc etc What's
really needed is that in the future "our people" go to the same high
school and see if the alienation still occurs....

Hagrinas Mivali

unread,
May 10, 2003, 3:58:00 PM5/10/03
to

"Bruce Anderson" <bwand...@youdontreallywantit.net> wrote in message
news:bwanderson-8F0E9...@news.easynews.com...

> In article <not.my-D518D9....@news.news.demon.net>,
> Andrew Jones <not...@realaddress.com> wrote:
>
> > Dougie,
> >
> > > It's probably because a.) I was 3 days old when half the cool music
ever was
> > > recorded, and b.) because there's too much cool shit to discover.
There's
> > > too much shit yet to discover from *300* years ago. Ain't music a cool
> > > thing?
> >
> > Yeah!
> >
> > The shame about it is that much of the coolest music seems to be hidden
> > from most folks' view- there's a world of music out there and the media
> > plays one village's output.
>
> Curse those village people...

I prefer the older word villians.


Chris Maxfield

unread,
May 10, 2003, 4:36:00 PM5/10/03
to
Hagrinas opined:

>I prefer the older word villians.

"Oh, it's written in the village rolls, that when a plowteam wants an oxen
And that oxen is lent,
Then the villians and the plowmen got to have the Lord's consent!
Yes, sir!"

"Put your head back; here comes the drill." Frank Zappa, R&E
Zapp...@aol.com a.k.a. Chris Maxfield


Ellen Brenner

unread,
May 10, 2003, 8:54:58 PM5/10/03
to
"Dave Wilcher" <dwi...@woh.rr.com> wrote in message
news:f3ava.26542$VP.40...@twister.neo.rr.com...

> Bruce Anderson wrote:
> > In article <not.my-D518D9....@news.news.demon.net>,
> > Andrew Jones <not...@realaddress.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Dougie,
> >>
> >>> It's probably because a.) I was 3 days old when half the cool music
> >>> ever was recorded, and b.) because there's too much cool shit to
> >>> discover. There's too much shit yet to discover from *300* years
> >>> ago. Ain't music a cool thing?
> >>
> >> Yeah!
> >>
> >> The shame about it is that much of the coolest music seems to be
> >> hidden from most folks' view- there's a world of music out there and
> >> the media plays one village's output.
> >
> > Curse those village people...
>
> Remember: It takes a village..

What takes a village? There's something out there taking villages? Why
wasn't I notified? Someone send out the National Guard, or one of those
other groups people send out when ... well, when there's something to have
people sent out over.

/the duck
(and so on and so forth and furthermore ... or furtherless ... )

--
Ellen T. Brenner
http://www.mizducky.com
San Diego, CA USA


Mike Pierry

unread,
May 10, 2003, 9:44:16 PM5/10/03
to
Andrew Jones wrote:
>
>
> Ok, taking this post to a different place..... I'm a music fan and a
> comics fan.

Cool! Do you like Marshal Law?

--
Pierry

Bruce Anderson

unread,
May 11, 2003, 12:15:10 AM5/11/03
to
In article <Cbhva.85348$Ye6.4...@twister.socal.rr.com>,
"Ellen Brenner" <her...@mizducky.com> wrote:

> "Dave Wilcher" <dwi...@woh.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:f3ava.26542$VP.40...@twister.neo.rr.com...
> > Bruce Anderson wrote:
> > > In article <not.my-D518D9....@news.news.demon.net>,
> > > Andrew Jones <not...@realaddress.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Dougie,
> > >>
> > >>> It's probably because a.) I was 3 days old when half the cool music
> > >>> ever was recorded, and b.) because there's too much cool shit to
> > >>> discover. There's too much shit yet to discover from *300* years
> > >>> ago. Ain't music a cool thing?
> > >>
> > >> Yeah!
> > >>
> > >> The shame about it is that much of the coolest music seems to be
> > >> hidden from most folks' view- there's a world of music out there and
> > >> the media plays one village's output.
> > >
> > > Curse those village people...
> >
> > Remember: It takes a village..
>
> What takes a village?

I'm thinking, "Madonna" but hey, that's just me.

Like a virgin my tuchus!

Waitaminute...

Andrew Jones

unread,
May 11, 2003, 7:24:52 AM5/11/03
to
Mike,

>
> Cool! Do you like Marshal Law?

Now's there's a blast from the past for me, yes i do, although its not
Pat Mills and Kev O'Neil's finest work to me- their work for the British
comic anthology 2000AD stands out. Kev O'Neil is currently providing the
art for "The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen", written by Alan Moore.
Its a great Victorian fantasy comic using other Victorian authors'
creations such as the Invisable Man, Captain Nemo and Dr Jeckyl and Mr
Hyde. A film version with Sean Connery will be released this summer.

Anyway, Kev O'Neil is the only artist to be banned by the Comics Code
Authority bacause of not what he draws but because of his art-style! A
major achievement- I grew up on this man's work.....

Is everybody still awake?

Mike Pierry

unread,
May 11, 2003, 12:27:03 PM5/11/03
to
Andrew Jones wrote:
> Mike,
>
>>Cool! Do you like Marshal Law?
>
>
> Now's there's a blast from the past for me, yes i do, although its not
> Pat Mills and Kev O'Neil's finest work to me- their work for the British
> comic anthology 2000AD stands out. Kev O'Neil is currently providing the
> art for "The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen", written by Alan Moore.
> Its a great Victorian fantasy comic using other Victorian authors'
> creations such as the Invisible Man, Captain Nemo and Dr Jeckyl and Mr
> Hyde. A film version with Sean Connery will be released this summer.

Yup! My roommate subscribes to Wizard magazine, the big comics rag over
here, so I've been reading *about* TLEG for months. He brought home a
Marshal Law collection and I was reading it earlier this week. I was
very impressed with it as a satire of the superhero genre--it even made
me laugh out loud in a couple of places. I'm planning on sneaking off
to the local comics shop at some point today when Mom isn't looking, to
see what I can find.

>
> Anyway, Kev O'Neil is the only artist to be banned by the Comics Code
> Authority bacause of not what he draws but because of his art-style! A
> major achievement- I grew up on this man's work.....

Now that I didn't know! That's fucking awesome, though.

--
Pierry

Andrew Jones

unread,
May 11, 2003, 12:42:03 PM5/11/03
to
Mike,

Do the libraries in NYC stock comic collections? These things can work
out pretty expensive otherwise

Rick Booth

unread,
May 13, 2003, 5:13:37 AM5/13/03
to
Doug Boucher <ilike...@thisbetternotbearealdomainname.com> wrote:
> "Andrew Jones" <not...@realaddress.com> wrote

>> The shame about it is that much of the coolest music seems to be hidden
>> from most folks' view- there's a world of music out there and the media
>> plays one village's output.

> Please forgive me, Andy. I've suddenly been struck by the insane desire to
> take this one paragraph and jump off it into a sea of my own long-winded
> shit. This is gonna take a while, make yourself comfortable. :)

[snip]

There haven't been many responses to this post, which I'm guessing is for
the same reason I haven't responded to it yet; I'm still trying to work
out what I want to say, other than "yeah! what he said!" I know a few
of us have blogged it, though, me included.

> Goddamn, I go on, don't I?

I certainly hope so.

- rfb
--
ri...@rfbooth.com http://www.rfbooth.com/ Danger: nuts may contain nuts.
Q: How hard can REALHAMSTER be buggered?
A: Very hard. REALHAMSTER can safely withstand over 200 lbs of thrust.
-- http://www.realhamster.com/faq.html

Andrew Jones

unread,
May 13, 2003, 2:22:38 PM5/13/03
to
Rick

>
> There haven't been many responses to this post, which I'm guessing is for
> the same reason I haven't responded to it yet; I'm still trying to work
> out what I want to say, other than "yeah! what he said!" I know a few
> of us have blogged it, though, me included.
>
Including the bits about Dougie's Dildos?

Michael Pierry

unread,
May 14, 2003, 12:02:58 AM5/14/03
to
"Doug Boucher" <ilike...@thisbetternotbearealdomainname.com> wrote in message news:<SUbva.27811$VP.41...@twister.neo.rr.com>...

>
> Yeah, it's a shame, but I think there's a good side to it - the thrill of
> discovery.

This is true of most good things in life, isn't it? It usually
doesn't just fall into your lap, you gotta work for it, in any number
of ways.

>
> Long before I got online, I READ to be able to know what was out there.
> Nobody told me shit. And even now in the Internet age, you can find out
> about cool stuff through fine people like the ones right here on this
> newsgroup, but it still feels like you did the work.

In a sense you did do the work, because you allowed yourself to find
out about it. You opened your mind, and said, "I'm interested in
learning about this new thing."

>
> I can't fathom only knowing about music through radio or TV. One can blame
> those forms of media for the dumbing down of culture, but a culture is made
> up of PEOPLE and their work, and if people don't want anything other than
> what is fed them, then what the fuck have you got? People are fucking lazy.
> People WANT to be sheep.

There are a number of complex issues going on these few sentences. I
think you know by now that I am going to question any statement along
the lines of, "People are X" or "People want X." These are
generalizations that tend not to stand up to close scrutiny. The
question to ask is, "What do our mass media teach us about how to
think and what is worth thinking about?" In other words, the media is
a huge source of societal pressure, value-shaping, and passive
learning. We have learned how to learn through TV, and American
schools have essentially followed the paradigm of TV.

Our educational system does NOT prepare us to deal critically with the
mass media, which is, in my opinion, a gigantic oversight. Kids
should be taught from an early age to think critically, not only about
radio and TV, but about all forms of authority. The fact that this is
not the case--that, in fact, the opposite is the case--could lead a
cynical mind to imagine that this is done deliberately to keep the
population dull, apathetic, uninformed and unquestioning. Our schools
are also outdated: they are designed to pump out future factory
workers and housewives. They are also prisons for kids, and all kids
understand this intuitively.

It is unsurprising, given the cumulative effects of 12 or 13 years of
our educational system and a lifelong exposure to the mass media, that
a large percentage of the population is essentially clueless about all
kinds of things. The percentage would be a lot higher if the schools
and TV actually did their job efficiently. Luckily there are all
sorts of "media viruses" and renegade teachers out there who poke
holes in the system.

> But then again, music isn't as important to most
> people as it is to lunatics like us, so maybe being cynical about people's
> ignorance isn't a terribly productive use of time either.

And you may very well find that for a lot of people, there's something
else that they are as passionate about as we are about music.

> Maybe people
> *should* want more, *should* care more about these kind of things, but
> everybody makes their own decisions.

Well, who are we to say what people should care about? Morality is
one thing, but I don't think anyone has a moral obligation to listen
to Mike Keneally.

> I'm no longer nearly as scared of
> people's sheep-like musical tastes as I am the other shit they play "follow
> the leader" to. It's all part of the same disease, granted, but until people
> get their shit together on the big stuff (you know, food, crime, war, that
> good stuff) I don't think I'm going to worry so much about some stupid
> processed-cheese album selling zillions of copies.

That's a good point. As for how to facilitate that, see my above
comments on education.

> While we pontificate about The Horrible Decline Of Our Sacred Art
> That Most People Are Too Stupid And Unenlightened To Understand The Majesty
> Of, other people are living, breathing, fucking, and making...God
> forbid...MUSIC. Maybe they're making shitty music, maybe it's merely bland
> music, but they're DOING IT. And ya know what, they SHOULD. Maybe they're
> doing what they're here to do.

Maybe, but maybe not. Would they be able to afford the luxury of
making music 100 years ago, or would they more likely have to do
something else? When you say stuff like "what they're here to do," I
think of people who are doing something significant that impacts the
culture in a positive way. Yeah, I know, who am I to say blah blah
blah, but you know something? Justin Timberlake would have been a
farmer who sang in the town choir. Beethoven would have been
Beethoven no matter when he was born. Admittedly, if he had been
female and/or black, he might have been doomed to obscurity (depending
on the exact time period), but I hope it's obvious that that's a
different situation.

There IS a level at which, in almost any field, certain individuals
are recognized as being geniuses. And if you don't know much about
that field, you may not understand WHY that person is a genius. Those
of us who are musicians do have knowledge that goes beyond that of the
layperson. We have done our homework. Therefore we do bring to the
table a certain degree of authority (to different degrees, of course),
and our opinion means something different than a non-musician. It's
not made of gold, it's not unquestionable, but it is perhaps weighted
a bit differently.

This is not to say that someone who is a jazz freak or a classical
freak--but not a musician--can't be very knowledgeable about jazz.
You can learn a LOT--just about everything, really--from merely
listening to a lot of music. If you listen to a lot of jazz,
regardless of whether you are a musician, you have a certain authority
in that.

So I guess what I'm getting at is this: maybe we're all shitting
ourselves, but if my ear tells me that a certain piece of music sounds
like garbage, I think the weight and authority of all the music I've
listened to makes my judgment mean something different than someone
who has never sat down and listened to John Coltrane for hours at a
time. Or Mahler. Or Frank Zappa. And so on. Does that make me a
snob? Maybe. I do think it makes me a specialist.

> And meanwhile, here's idiots like me NOT
> doing it, but just TALKING about it. Isn't THAT not every bit as
> irresponsible, every bit as contributory to "decline" as anything else?

I don't know, because I don't know about any decline. I don't think
it does any harm for us to talk about anything. I don't know of any
reason to assume the world is better off having more music than words
in it, other than my own aesthetic biases.

> Shit, at least the Evil Greedy Big Bad Music Industry is pumping out
> something people can DANCE to, can FUCK to. Or can get drunk and yell
> "Freebird!" to, but I'm trying not to think about that. :)

If you're talking about utility, I think that's a tough one to
measure. The EGBBMI didn't create the desire to dance or fuck or get
drunk, it merely feeds off them. Those needs would get met with or
without the EGBBMI, so it's hard to argue that what they do is really
that productive. It employs a lot of bad business executives, but
maybe they'd be better off milking cows.


> Maybe more of us arty types should try to do


> some Arty Music That Leads To Dancing And Fucking, becuase it would be a
> fuck of a lot more of a positive influence on society than running scales at
> 450BPM.

I don't think it's a good idea for musicians to spend too much time
worrying about whether they're a positive influence on society. If
you're able to get a message across at all, it should be a positive
one, but musicians don't do what they do primarily for the betterment
of society.

The rest of your message is very difficult to comment on, because I'm
not sure whom you're addressing or what you mean. I think that's
enough to chew on for now, anyway.

--
Pierry

snow lizard

unread,
May 15, 2003, 5:44:58 AM5/15/03
to
Michael Pierry wrote:

>Doug Boucher wrote:

>> I can't fathom only knowing about music through radio or TV. One can blame
>> those forms of media for the dumbing down of culture, but a culture is made
>> up of PEOPLE and their work, and if people don't want anything other than
>> what is fed them, then what the fuck have you got? People are fucking lazy.
>> People WANT to be sheep.

>There are a number of complex issues going on these few sentences. I
>think you know by now that I am going to question any statement along
>the lines of, "People are X" or "People want X." These are
>generalizations that tend not to stand up to close scrutiny.

The generalizations might apply better to some people than others. I
think these generalizations apply very well to many people with
control over the content of radio and tv, the EGBBMI and such. The
media itself is only a tool, or a vehicle. Anyone who wants to can
blame technology for stultifying culture, but we rely on it every
single day. Perhaps the governing force behind radio and tv are not a
bunch of lazy sheep, but I think there is evidence to suggest that in
many cases, this is how they think of their audience, especially in
the United States. I think there is also evidence to the contrary.

>The
>question to ask is, "What do our mass media teach us about how to
>think and what is worth thinking about?" In other words, the media is
>a huge source of societal pressure, value-shaping, and passive
>learning. We have learned how to learn through TV, and American
>schools have essentially followed the paradigm of TV.

Perhaps not very much in some cases. I don't rely on mass media for
instruction of the thought process. I don't have cable. I rarely watch
tv at home. I do think that the media is a huge source of social
influence and passive conditioning, but if anything, we've learned how
to not learn through tv. Why think if the Radiation King will do it
for you? Again, it's a formula that doesn't always work. If you're
watching a show about nature, or cooking, or do-it-yourself
woodworking with the guy with a garage that has one and a half million
dollars worth of factory grade woodworking equipment in it, you can
decide for yourself if you're learning anything or not. If you're
watching Jack Black, one can only hope that you're learning something.
If you're watching some stupid "Real TV" bullshit where some guy
skiing down a cliff loses it & ends up tumbling down around 217 yards,
head-over-thorax, only to get up without a scratch and walk to the
clubhouse, one can only hope that you're simply entertained by it. The
only guy I've ever known that has done something like that was
paralyzed from the neck down. Commercials do most of the conditioning.


>Our educational system does NOT prepare us to deal critically with the
>mass media, which is, in my opinion, a gigantic oversight.

Agreed.

>Kids should be taught from an early age to think critically, not only about
>radio and TV, but about all forms of authority.

You're such a rebel :)

As for the music related stuff, I'm sure that many people don't want
to examine music for its technical attributes, or for how audacious or
boring or sexual or evil or sheep-like the counterpoint of the
underlying melody sandwiched in between that same fucking G major 7th
chord played OVER and OVER and OVER again is. I sure as hell don't. I
always usually just go with a gut reaction sometimes. When and if I
do, I might scrutinize something a bit more, but it's secondary. The
gut reaction is primary. For most people, I'm sure the gut reaction is
all there is, but it can get complicated if you're trying to look like
the girl in the Pepsi commercial AND shake your ass in 11/16.

I'm also convinced that many people are tone deaf, and listen to music
simply to be part of some thrilling new trend. Television won't help
these people with respect to understanding music on a more advanced
level, but it might not hurt. Actually, it might serve their social
needs. Some people are inclined to lead their lives in a very unique,
creative and individual way, while others are more inclined to follow
somebody else, regardless of corruption from the media.


sl

Bruce Anderson

unread,
May 15, 2003, 10:18:43 AM5/15/03
to
In article <3ec34845...@news.rslnet.net>,
cpop1...@Myahoo.com (snow lizard) wrote:

> Perhaps the governing force behind radio and tv are not a
> bunch of lazy sheep, but I think there is evidence to suggest that in
> many cases, this is how they think of their audience, especially in
> the United States. I think there is also evidence to the contrary.

They surely must because they, along with the MPAA and RIAA, treat us
like cattle.

How else can you explain such cinematic gems as...well, dammit, anything
with Rob Scneider in it? How else do you explain cookie-cutter sitcoms
where the humour is in the form of people saying mean and spiteful
things to each other? How else can you explain Clear Channel? Well, OK,
that we can blame on the FCC, but still-they own and have homogenised
some 60% of the market nationwide. How is that good for anyone but Clear
Channel? It's good for, say, McDonald's because it guarantees the
customer that a Big Mac in Pocoima will taste the same as one in
Poughkipsie. But music ain't a Big Mac.

I'm wavering on the edge of cancelling our satellite service next year
and ditching the TV. I've a feeling that in 2006 or whenever it is the
enforced switch to HDTV (there's another sign something's wrong-letting
the gov't dictate technology changes; if things were healthy in the
industry, they'd've gotten their collective act together YEARS ago and
settled the issue; instead, the gov't has to step in and settle it for
them) I'll not be buying a new set. There's good stuff on, but is it
worth sifting through the crap to find it? I suppose it's all in what's
valuable to you. To me, I'm seeing less and less value in TV. I stopped
seeing the value in radio years ago. Movies...well...I made an exception
for X-Men 2, and I'll make one for the Matrix, maybe...I'm still torn.
But overall, movies are worthless to me. I've got better things to do.

Now if I could just figure out what they are,

TAPKAE

unread,
May 15, 2003, 11:11:07 AM5/15/03
to
"snow lizard" fell for this old hogwash:

> I don't rely on mass media for instruction of the thought process. I don't
> have cable. I rarely watch tv at home. I do think that the media is a huge
> source of social influence and passive conditioning, but if anything, we've
> learned how to not learn through tv. Why think if the Radiation King will do
> it for you? Again, it's a formula that doesn't always work. If you're watching
> a show about nature, or cooking, or do-it-yourself woodworking with the guy
> with a garage that has one and a half million dollars worth of factory grade
> woodworking equipment in it, you can decide for yourself if you're learning
> anything or not. If you're watching Jack Black, one can only hope that you're
> learning something. If you're watching some stupid "Real TV" bullshit where
> some guy skiing down a cliff loses it & ends up tumbling down around 217
> yards, head-over-thorax, only to get up without a scratch and walk to the
> clubhouse, one can only hope that you're simply entertained by it. The only
> guy I've ever known that has done something like that was paralyzed from the
> neck down. Commercials do most of the conditioning.


We REALLY need to have a beer together... Bring a guitar too.


--e

http://tapkae.com
"Speak truth to Power."
J.B. Kiesling for President, 2004


TAPKAE

unread,
May 15, 2003, 11:18:14 AM5/15/03
to
"Bruce Anderson" fell for this old hogwash:

> How else can you explain such cinematic gems as...well, dammit, anything
> with Rob Scneider in it? How else do you explain cookie-cutter sitcoms
> where the humour is in the form of people saying mean and spiteful
> things to each other? How else can you explain Clear Channel? Well, OK,
> that we can blame on the FCC, but still-they own and have homogenised
> some 60% of the market nationwide. How is that good for anyone but Clear
> Channel? It's good for, say, McDonald's because it guarantees the
> customer that a Big Mac in Pocoima will taste the same as one in
> Poughkipsie. But music ain't a Big Mac.
>
> I'm wavering on the edge of cancelling our satellite service next year
> and ditching the TV. I've a feeling that in 2006 or whenever it is the
> enforced switch to HDTV (there's another sign something's wrong-letting
> the gov't dictate technology changes; if things were healthy in the
> industry, they'd've gotten their collective act together YEARS ago and
> settled the issue; instead, the gov't has to step in and settle it for
> them) I'll not be buying a new set. There's good stuff on, but is it
> worth sifting through the crap to find it? I suppose it's all in what's
> valuable to you. To me, I'm seeing less and less value in TV. I stopped
> seeing the value in radio years ago. Movies...well...I made an exception
> for X-Men 2, and I'll make one for the Matrix, maybe...I'm still torn.
> But overall, movies are worthless to me. I've got better things to do.


You and Snowy and I REALLY need to have a few beers together. Bring a
guitar.


The only movies I saw in theaters in the last few years came from my
girlfriend's affiliation with a theater, and all of it was free. Just like
eating at McDogfoods, I rarely ever do it, and I certainly don't want to put
my own money into the hands of the companies that will do just fine without
my contribution. I have boycotted McDogfoods for 14 years, and the only time
I have eaten their food is in instances when someone makes a food run on a
gig or some sort of thing like that when its really not up to me. And that
has been only about 5 times in the last 14 years.

Hagrinas Mivali

unread,
May 15, 2003, 12:09:02 PM5/15/03
to

"TAPKAE" <e...@shit.com> wrote in message news:BAE8FB38.1F48C%e...@shit.com...

Beer for ...


TAPKAE

unread,
May 15, 2003, 5:04:21 PM5/15/03
to
"Hagrinas Mivali" fell for this old hogwash:

>> We REALLY need to have a beer together... Bring a guitar too.
>>
>
> Beer for ...


Snow Lizards.

Bruce Anderson

unread,
May 17, 2003, 1:17:50 AM5/17/03
to
In article <BAE8FCE3.1F48E%e...@shit.com>, TAPKAE <e...@shit.com> wrote:

> You and Snowy and I REALLY need to have a few beers together. Bring a
> guitar.

I don't play, so I really don't think you want me to do that.

And I don't drink so I'll be the designated driver.

^_^

b.

--
"I feel so fucking Zen, baby." - Dougie

snow lizard

unread,
May 17, 2003, 4:03:20 PM5/17/03
to
Bruce Anderson wrote:

>In article <BAE8FCE3.1F48E%e...@shit.com>, TAPKAE <e...@shit.com> wrote:
>
>> You and Snowy and I REALLY need to have a few beers together. Bring a
>> guitar.
>
>I don't play, so I really don't think you want me to do that.
>
>And I don't drink so I'll be the designated driver.
>
>^_^
>

<mburns>

Excellent!

</mburns>

We'll con our way into getting bagels from somebody. Designated driver
gets first dibs.


sl

snow lizard

unread,
May 17, 2003, 4:09:22 PM5/17/03
to
TAPKAE wrote:

>"Hagrinas Mivali" fell for this old hogwash:
>
>>> We REALLY need to have a beer together... Bring a guitar too.
>>>
>>
>> Beer for ...
>
>
>Snow Lizards.


Belive it or not, I would endorse such an idea!


The beer is the thing,

sl

TAPKAE

unread,
May 17, 2003, 6:45:09 PM5/17/03
to
"Bruce Anderson" fell for this old hogwash:

>> You and Snowy and I REALLY need to have a few beers together. Bring a


>> guitar.
>
> I don't play, so I really don't think you want me to do that.

You can be Snowy's tech. I use a bass. It hardly ever breaks strings. Being
a tech means you get the cocaine when the star needs to have some...

>
> And I don't drink so I'll be the designated driver.


You can at least BRING the stuff, can't you???

Bruce Anderson

unread,
May 17, 2003, 9:13:25 PM5/17/03
to
In article <BAEC099E.1F6DB%e...@shit.com>, TAPKAE <e...@shit.com> wrote:

> "Bruce Anderson" fell for this old hogwash:
>
> >> You and Snowy and I REALLY need to have a few beers together. Bring a
> >> guitar.
> >
> > I don't play, so I really don't think you want me to do that.
>
> You can be Snowy's tech. I use a bass. It hardly ever breaks strings. Being
> a tech means you get the cocaine when the star needs to have some...

So there's no actual work involved then, right?

> > And I don't drink so I'll be the designated driver.
>
> You can at least BRING the stuff, can't you???

Oh, I suppose I could bring a few bottles of something fermented.

What's yer poison?

TAPKAE

unread,
May 18, 2003, 5:49:34 AM5/18/03
to
"Bruce Anderson" fell for this old hogwash:


>>>> You and Snowy and I REALLY need to have a few beers together. Bring a
>>>> guitar.
>>>
>>> I don't play, so I really don't think you want me to do that.
>>
>> You can be Snowy's tech. I use a bass. It hardly ever breaks strings. Being
>> a tech means you get the cocaine when the star needs to have some...
>
> So there's no actual work involved then, right?

Unless fetching cocaine and booze and loose women is deemed as "work" by the
individual doing those things.

>
>>> And I don't drink so I'll be the designated driver.
>>
>> You can at least BRING the stuff, can't you???
>
> Oh, I suppose I could bring a few bottles of something fermented.
>
> What's yer poison?


There is Karl Strauss made in this town, and I dig it muchly. Sam Adams on
draft does a lot of good things for/to me.

snow lizard

unread,
May 20, 2003, 12:38:27 AM5/20/03
to
TAPKAE wrote:

>"Bruce Anderson" fell for this old hogwash:
>
>
>>>>> You and Snowy and I REALLY need to have a few beers together. Bring a
>>>>> guitar.
>>>>
>>>> I don't play, so I really don't think you want me to do that.
>>>
>>> You can be Snowy's tech. I use a bass. It hardly ever breaks strings. Being
>>> a tech means you get the cocaine when the star needs to have some...

You've got stars in Sandy Eggo? Seriously, if I need to buy deep-fried
skink boots for this occasion, I wouldn't be able to afford the gas.


sl

TAPKAE

unread,
May 20, 2003, 3:40:26 AM5/20/03
to
"snow lizard" fell for this old hogwash:


Well, we have Bob Tedde, who thinks he is a star. He didn't have me get him
cocaine, but sometimes I had to take his soiled stage wardrobe to the
cleaners. The return trip was always "nicer" than the drop off trip.

The part that gets the most sneers and laughs is the part about him filling
guitar cases with laundry as packing material for long distance road travel
and flight. The return trip was definitely not as nice in that case...

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