Useless
Rob Mitchell
Far too many to count. One more:
"Death fall girl a fan of missing rock star (The Times)
A SIXTH-FORM pupil who was besotted with a self-destructive rock star
was found dead at the bottom of a school staircase, an inquest was
told yesterday.
Katherine Whatmough, 18, of Gilsland, Cumbria, was discovered at the
end of a normal school day at the fee-paying Austin Friars school in
Carlisle.
The inquest, held in the city, was told that she was a fan of the
Manic Street Preachers, a Welsh rock group, and particularly Richey
Edwards, the band's former singer/guitarist, who disappeared in
mysterious circumstances five years ago. The hearing was told that she
was seen touching the musician's face on a poster in her study booth
shortly before her death. A copy of one of the band's albums, The Holy
Bible, was found close to her body. Nobody witnessed what happened and
an inquest jury must decide today how she fell 40ft to her death.
Ryan Welkdale, a fellow pupil, told the hearing: "She was greatly
influenced by lyrics from certain pop groups."
Cressida Thronton, a third year pupil, added: "I saw her standing on
the landing at the top of the stairs that afternoon. She was standing
there gazing straight ahead."
The inquest continues."
So, 'besotted' as an epitaph? That's nice. Reminds me of another one a
couple of weeks ago which went through the circumstances of another
suicide and just ended with a 'friend' saying "She was a very complex
character". Complex? Not really fitting, but it sounds like exactly
the same kind of remembrance they'd give me.
Nick Nicola
Decapitate and bury your toys. My frisbee brings Rob Mitchell:
> Nobody witnessed what happened and
> an inquest jury must decide today how she fell 40ft to her death.
What are they going to do? Blame the Manics? This is just as pathetic as
the whole 'blame Marilyn Manson for the Columbine shootings' debacle. I can
just imagine the scene as some pompous, well-fed pre-historic magistrate
blames a rock group for the girl's death. When are ppl going to realize
that it is SOCIETY and its constraining forces which shape an individual's
life, rather than a few song lyrics? Suicide is only partially motivated by
psychological defects. 90% is contributed by aimlessness and despair -both
provoked by modern social life. Okay, that's enough sociological analysis
from me, it's all been said before.
~NN~
kitsch
schools. there was a big 'thing' last year about (hazy memories,
forgive me) a couple of girls who were drunk at boarding school and one
fell off the roof + died. about 8% of kids go to a private school, and
i'm certain that there's a massive media bias. cases also seem to be
more media-prominent if a convenient rockstar can be blamed; the manics
have had that dubious honour several times but maz manson's the king.
morbid question, but isn't chucking yourself down a staircase a rather
odd way of suiciding? i think some royal (diana?) tried *7* times
without success...
but all in all, condolences to the girl's friends and family, a
big 'fuck you' to society for making her feel like that, and my
thoughts are with the girl herself. she was one of us.
~*~~the human race is poisoned, so it does not make any difference
whether you poison yourself or not~~*~
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Michael Wood
Rob Mitchell <ro...@MailandNews.com> wrote in message
news:417hls0u7hfk7ousc...@4ax.com...
> Media reports with no real understanding of anything. How many now?
> Far too many to count. One more:
>
>
> "Death fall girl a fan of missing rock star (The Times)
>
> A SIXTH-FORM pupil who was besotted with a self-destructive rock star
> was found dead at the bottom of a school staircase, an inquest was
> told yesterday.
> Katherine Whatmough, 18, of Gilsland, Cumbria, was discovered at the
> end of a normal school day at the fee-paying Austin Friars school in
> Carlisle.
>
> The inquest, held in the city, was told that she was a fan of the
> Manic Street Preachers, a Welsh rock group, and particularly Richey
> Edwards, the band's former singer/guitarist, who disappeared in
> mysterious circumstances five years ago. The hearing was told that she
> was seen touching the musician's face on a poster in her study booth
> shortly before her death. A copy of one of the band's albums, The Holy
> Bible, was found close to her body. Nobody witnessed what happened and
> an inquest jury must decide today how she fell 40ft to her death.
>
Rachel Guest
>that it is SOCIETY and its constraining forces which shape an individual's
>life, rather than a few song lyrics? Suicide is only partially motivated
by
>psychological defects. 90% is contributed by aimlessness and despair -both
>provoked by modern social life. Okay, that's enough sociological analysis
>from me, it's all been said before.
in my experience, part of depression is feeling aimless and desperate. maybe
society has a part to play, but it is possible to feel like what you're
doing is of worth. i want to be a criminal psychology, so i can actually
help society in a big way by basically ridding murderers of their desire to
murder and rapists of their desire to rape. that sounds like a childhood
dream but it's actually what i'm going to do. my point is it's not
societies fault if i'm feeling worthless and depressed. well, that's not
what i believe anyway!
to me the feeling of worthlessness is a symptom of depression - something
caused by a combination of personal experience and chemicals in the brain
(and all that biological stuff!)
ok. sorry for OT rant but there you go
just my thoughts on the subject :-)
Dan Chedgzoy
>she was one of us.
woah there
Aaron Matthews
> the whole 'blame Marilyn Manson for the Columbine shootings' debacle.
the most fucked up thing about the whole columbine shootings saga... was
that Manson cancelled his remaining shows, but Charlton Heston met with with
his gun association to protest about proposed changes to gun laws. Who's
more evil?
--
'How can I help it?' he blubbered.
'How can I help seeing what is in front of my eyes? Two and two are four.'
"Sometimes, Winston. Sometimes they are five.
Sometimes they are three.
Sometimes they are all of them at once.
You must try harder.
It is not easy to become sane." - 1984 (George Orwell)
---
"Nick Nicola" <nick....@yes.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:962110855.6269.0...@news.demon.co.uk...
> I had my frisbee sharpened and honed, I had it galvanised and chromed.
> Decapitate and bury your toys. My frisbee brings Rob Mitchell:
>
> > Nobody witnessed what happened and
> > an inquest jury must decide today how she fell 40ft to her death.
>
> What are they going to do? Blame the Manics? I can
> just imagine the scene as some pompous, well-fed pre-historic magistrate
> blames a rock group for the girl's death. When are ppl going to realize
> that it is SOCIETY and its constraining forces which shape an individual's
> life, rather than a few song lyrics? Suicide is only partially motivated
by
> psychological defects. 90% is contributed by aimlessness and
despair -both
> provoked by modern social life. Okay, that's enough sociological analysis
> from me, it's all been said before.
>
> ~NN~
>
>
>
>
>
laydeeekiller
T(NT) <goat...@prioryv.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:QLDx2vBw...@prioryv.demon.co.uk...
> In article <8japrm$lji$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, kitsch <kit...@my-deja.com>
> writt
> >most of the teen suicides reported seem to those of kids from private
> >schools. there was a big 'thing' last year about (hazy memories,
> >forgive me) a couple of girls who were drunk at boarding school and one
> >fell off the roof + died. about 8% of kids go to a private school, and
> >i'm certain that there's a massive media bias. cases also seem to be
> >more media-prominent if a convenient rockstar can be blamed; the manics
> >have had that dubious honour several times but maz manson's the king.
> >
> or homicide in the name of 'God'? BAN THIS EVIL MAN'S WORKS!
>
yah but aren't they using that as an excuse rather than that influencing
them? or uh was that your point and you were saying why manics etc shouldn't
be blamed? ;o) hmm sorry. ;o)
> >morbid question, but isn't chucking yourself down a staircase a rather
> >odd way of suiciding? i think some royal (diana?) tried *7* times
> >without success...
> >
> I'd go for bag over head/butane lighter method or hanging, in that order
> of preference.
>
hmm not paracetamol? isn't that supposed to be pretty much painless and
fairly easy...?
Rachel Guest
>hmm not paracetamol? isn't that supposed to be pretty much painless and
>fairly easy...?
easy maybe but overdosing is one of the most painful ways to commit suicide
cos you're basically burning out your insides - like drinking bleach or
something. that's why you're not meant to take painkillers without food cos
they'll give you stomach ulcers.
harm...@my-deja.com
"laydeeekiller" <be...@screaming.net> wrote:
> hmm not paracetamol? isn't that supposed to be pretty much painless
and
> fairly easy...?
>
oh, i do hope that was a joke.
~a
Lewis Dubois
> >fairly easy...?
>
suicide
> cos you're basically burning out your insides - like drinking bleach or
> something. that's why you're not meant to take painkillers without food
cos
> they'll give you stomach ulcers.
>
a poll? Top 5 Ways To Top Yourselves?
Gun would probably be good. or the old car exhaust one. or overdosing on
viagra? i'm sure thay would be funky.
auntie lou
Yossarian
Rachel Guest wrote in message <8jdoo2$o77$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk>...
>
>>hmm not paracetamol? isn't that supposed to be pretty much painless and
>>fairly easy...?
>
>easy maybe but overdosing is one of the most painful ways to commit suicide
>cos you're basically burning out your insides - like drinking bleach or
>something. that's why you're not meant to take painkillers without food cos
>they'll give you stomach ulcers.
Paracetomol does not damage the stomach lining like aspirin or ibuprofen
can. It does, however, in relatively small overdoses damage the livers
functions meaning that a successful (?) overdose means that death is caused
by your body basically poisoning itself as the liver is unable to remove
toxins from the body. Which might be easy, but I suspect incredibly
unpleasant...
--
Steve.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~.
Wrap your arms around this everlasting kiss.
The difference between love and comfort
is that comfort's more reliable and true.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
Rob Mitchell
>fairly easy...?
Maybe there's some fantasy world out there where paracetomol is
painless and slitting your wrists is anywhere near vaguely effectual
and you can down a bottle of sleeping pills and never wake up again,
just like in the movies. Back in the real world, um, no.
Basically, there's easy, and there's painless. There's not really a
massive amount of crossover between the two. Unless you're American
and can just pop down your nearest Guns'R'Us of course.
Lewis Dubois
on
> >viagra? i'm sure thay would be funky.
> >
>
BOOM and, indeed, BOOM!! :) my, you are a wry one, aren't you. isn't that
a bob monkhouse punchline?
auntie lou
Chris Norton
> hmm not paracetamol? isn't that supposed to be pretty much painless and
> fairly easy...?
GOD Bebby, you moron! How dare you not know all about how to kill
yourself! You stupid fool!
[cleans up sarcasm with big spade]
Give the guy a break! That's what I would have said too, and quite
frankly it doesn't matter how you die because at the end you are always
just as dead.
Maybe I'm not making any friends here and I'm not suggesting any of you
are stupid, but I don't think it's right to... well to come along and go
'cor mate, that's the worst way to die... still not as bad as xxxx'. The
Manics have always come close to glorifying suicide, and that is stupid,
offensive and wrong.
love
Mash (confrontational recently, but I don't want to upset anyone)
I find it
Rachel Guest
Rob Mitchell wrote in message
<7stmlskcg8k660mlm...@4ax.com>...
>>hmm not paracetamol? isn't that supposed to be pretty much painless and
>>fairly easy...?
>
>painless and slitting your wrists is anywhere near vaguely effectual
i hate to differ (no, honestly :-)) but slitting your wrists *is* effectual
if a)you do it properly and b) no one finds you.
Rachel Guest
Chris Norton wrote in message <395BC501...@york.ac.uk>...
>Beeeeeeeeeebbbbbbbbbyyyyyyyyyyyyy wrote:
>
>> hmm not paracetamol? isn't that supposed to be pretty much painless and
>> fairly easy...?
>
>yourself! You stupid fool!
>
>[cleans up sarcasm with big spade]
>
>Give the guy a break! That's what I would have said too, and quite
>frankly it doesn't matter how you die because at the end you are always
>just as dead.
>
>Maybe I'm not making any friends here and I'm not suggesting any of you
>are stupid, but I don't think it's right to... well to come along and go
>'cor mate, that's the worst way to die... still not as bad as xxxx'. The
>Manics have always come close to glorifying suicide, and that is stupid,
>offensive and wrong.
>
never talk about suicide. A lot of manics fans are depressed (not adhering
to stereotypes - this is based on my own experience of manics fans!) and
depressed people tend to talk about suicide (statistically true).
but yeah, we should talk about the best ways to kill yourself. at the end of
the day whichever way a person should chose to do it, it would not be easy
or painless. the human body will naturally resist things that threaten it.
harm...@my-deja.com
Chris Norton <cn...@york.ac.uk> wrote:
> Beeeeeeeeeebbbbbbbbbyyyyyyyyyyyyy wrote:
>
> > hmm not paracetamol? isn't that supposed to be pretty much painless
and
> > fairly easy...?
>
> GOD Bebby, you moron! How dare you not know all about how to kill
> yourself! You stupid fool!
>
> [cleans up sarcasm with big spade]
>
> Give the guy a break! That's what I would have said too, and quite
> frankly it doesn't matter how you die because at the end you are
always
> just as dead.
>
haha, fair enough but this subject has come up in the newsgroup before
and the point that offing yourself with paracetamol was a rather slow
and painful way to die was mentioned so it's not like it would be
unheard of for people to know that. he did *ask* if it was painless and
fairly easy so its not like people just made some giant jump in
conversation to share their favorite methods.
<snip>
>The
> Manics have always come close to glorifying suicide, and that is
stupid,
> offensive and wrong.
>
your opinion. they glorified a lot of stupid crap (the claims of wild
sex and drug use) that they didn't believe in. you could call that
irresponsible and stupid but i'd like to think most people took it for
what it was (a romanticized view of something that was very different
in real life.)
> love
> Mash (confrontational recently, but I don't want to upset anyone)
>
~amy (trying to find a better web based usenet program until i get off
my school server)
T(NT)
>Maybe I'm not making any friends here and I'm not suggesting any of you
>are stupid, but I don't think it's right to... well to come along and go
>Manics have always come close to glorifying suicide, and that is stupid,
>offensive and wrong.
If we have 'glorified' suicide, then the Manics glorified Nazism.
--
T(NT) | +First goat in space+ | Music maker & goat-keeper |
| zasha |
I am an arse.
| VES' MIR NE PEREYEBIOSH' | RHYDWY'N EISIAU DAFAD YN YR GWELY |
Nick Nicola
me. Give me some:
> If we have 'glorified' suicide, then the Manics glorified Nazism.
But when the Manics have mentioned Nazism it has been in a disparaging way,
unlike suicide, where they seem to eulogize. For instance, "Hitler reprised
in the worm of your soul" is *very* different to (although they didn't write
it), "Suicide is Painless." I'm not taking sides here either.
~NN~
Yossarian
>frankly it doesn't matter how you die because at the end you are always
>just as dead.
"Being dead don't hurt, no, only dying....."
>Manics have always come close to glorifying suicide, and that is stupid,
>offensive and wrong.
Or maybe the fans have read too much into it. Either way, yer dead a long
time.
Rob Mitchell
>frankly it doesn't matter how you die because at the end you are always
>just as dead.
Which, by extension, ends up as 'it doesn't matter what you do with
your life, because in the end you'll just end up dead anyway and it
won't affect you'. Either your life as a whole is relevant, in which
case the days and hours before your suicide matter as much or even
more than whatever actions you've performed previously, or everything
is totally meaningless as a whole and so no action you perform
ultimately matters, and under such an extremely nihilistic viewpoint,
it wouldn't matter a bit whether you killed yourself or not, indeed if
you perceive oblivion to be preferable on balance to life, why not?
Even if you discard the effect on the suicide him/herself, there's the
greater pyschological harm caused to friends and family of seeing
someone slowly deteriorate in pain over several days over a quicker
and more painless method. You can't be selectively nihilistic without
running into logical or philosophical inconsistencies.
Besides which, there's the possible consequences of carrying out a bad
method, or a good method in a bad way - organ damage, mental
retardation, paralysis - if you fail. Basically if someone says
'paracetomol is painless' then there's some sort of duty to correct
the information before the possibility that someone takes the
information at face value and shreds their liver in the process.
>Maybe I'm not making any friends here and I'm not suggesting any of you
>are stupid, but I don't think it's right to... well to come along and go
>'cor mate, that's the worst way to die... still not as bad as xxxx'. The
>Manics have always come close to glorifying suicide, and that is stupid,
>offensive and wrong.
Really? Compared to, say, inbuilt Japanese cultural attitudes to
suicide, the Manics' attitudes are very neutral indeed. And
essentially, however the press wants to present it, no-one's going to
go and commit suicide because X band sings about it and Y person did
it. And no-one's forcing people to listen to the Manics, people do it
of their own free will, and they can always ignore the band if their
attitude offends them. If people connect to suicidal lyrics, it's
because they reflect and share that person's own state of mind, rather
than the lyrics in any way causing it. Besides which, all the dogma
and cliches usually trotted out - 'nothing can be so bad as to make
you want to do that / life is good, you just can't see it /
God/Allah/a book from 2000 years ago forbids it' - they're so painful
in their disconnection, so far from any experience of the person in
question, that they just seem actively harmful and counter-productive
to me.
Rob Mitchell
>if a)you do it properly and b) no one finds you.
It depends what you mean by 'effectual'. Given that the percentage
mortality rates for suicide attempts through cutting are in the low
single figures it wouldn't rate as effectual to me. Unless you're
prepared to go for your neck it's fairly likely you'l get nowhere with
it, even taking extra steps of anticoagulants, increasing blood flow
etc.
This is a bit morbid isn't it? I won't bang on about the methodology
of it any more because it's perfectly possible to get as much
information as you could possibly want and more off the internet if
you really want anyway.
laydeeekiller
> In article <962351010.979.0....@news.demon.co.uk>, Nick
> Nicola <nick....@yes.demon.co.uk> writt
>
but mash said *the manics* had glorified suicide! or rather had come close
to glorifying suicide. so... yeah...
laydeeekiller
Rob Mitchell <ro...@MailandNews.com> wrote in message
> >Give the guy a break! That's what I would have said too, and quite
> >frankly it doesn't matter how you die because at the end you are always
> >just as dead.
>
> Which, by extension, ends up as 'it doesn't matter what you do with
> your life, because in the end you'll just end up dead anyway and it
> won't affect you'.
>
agree that it is unfair to, say, punish under-age drinking by death. by
extension, then, any form of punishment is unfair and it is really an
amazement that we have a police force at all.
> Either your life as a whole is relevant, in which
> case the days and hours before your suicide matter as much or even
> more than whatever actions you've performed previously, or everything
> is totally meaningless as a whole and so no action you perform
> ultimately matters, and under such an extremely nihilistic viewpoint,
> it wouldn't matter a bit whether you killed yourself or not, indeed if
> you perceive oblivion to be preferable on balance to life, why not?
>
hmmmm I don't agree.
> Even if you discard the effect on the suicide him/herself, there's the
> greater pyschological harm caused to friends and family of seeing
> someone slowly deteriorate in pain over several days over a quicker
> and more painless method. You can't be selectively nihilistic without
> running into logical or philosophical inconsistencies.
>
well yeah, but for one thing obviously people in general are not completely
logical and if someone is going to commit suicide, they're probably not
going to fully consider the effects on their friends and family, or if
they're being illogical or 'wrong'; secondly I would say that while it
*does* matter what happens over a lifetime as a whole, what happens in a few
days when you're about to die doesn't matter, because its such a short time
and after it everything is just finished anyway. I don't think thats
inconsistant because theres a huge difference between 25 years or whatever
and a week.
> Besides which, there's the possible consequences of carrying out a bad
> method, or a good method in a bad way - organ damage, mental
> retardation, paralysis - if you fail. Basically if someone says
> 'paracetomol is painless' then there's some sort of duty to correct
> the information before the possibility that someone takes the
> information at face value and shreds their liver in the process.
>
yes well ok. ;o)
> >Maybe I'm not making any friends here and I'm not suggesting any of you
> >are stupid, but I don't think it's right to... well to come along and go
> >'cor mate, that's the worst way to die... still not as bad as xxxx'. The
> >Manics have always come close to glorifying suicide, and that is stupid,
> >offensive and wrong.
>
> Really? Compared to, say, inbuilt Japanese cultural attitudes to
> suicide, the Manics' attitudes are very neutral indeed.
>
but the japanese cultural attitude is irrelevent! if japanese people came
here and tried to convince everyone that there was nothing wrong with
suicide etc etc that would be wrong, surely?
> And
> essentially, however the press wants to present it, no-one's going to
> go and commit suicide because X band sings about it and Y person did
> it. And no-one's forcing people to listen to the Manics, people do it
> of their own free will, and they can always ignore the band if their
> attitude offends them. If people connect to suicidal lyrics, it's
> because they reflect and share that person's own state of mind, rather
> than the lyrics in any way causing it.
>
that is true, but by singing things like "suicide is painless", and by
glorifying richey's dissapearance (which obviously wasn't their fault, but
it still has an effect) it can change peoples attitudes to suicide and make
it seem less important and final and catastrophic and everything. so if
someone was just *considering* suicide, but wouldn't normally kill
themselves, they might think that it isn't really such a big thing, its
something that can be casually suggested/done and so instead of stopping and
thinking then they go ahead and do it. also someone might not even have
thought about suicide before, so if a band introduces it it can have a very
negative affect. yes ok that last sentance was *terrible* I know I'm sorry.
;o)
> Besides which, all the dogma
> and cliches usually trotted out - 'nothing can be so bad as to make
> you want to do that / life is good, you just can't see it /
> God/Allah/a book from 2000 years ago forbids it' - they're so painful
> in their disconnection, so far from any experience of the person in
> question, that they just seem actively harmful and counter-productive
> to me.
>
hehehe oh god yes. ;o)
laydeeekiller
Chris Norton <cn...@york.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:395BC501...@york.ac.uk...
> Beeeeeeeeeebbbbbbbbbyyyyyyyyyyyyy wrote:
>
> > hmm not paracetamol? isn't that supposed to be pretty much painless and
> > fairly easy...?
>
> GOD Bebby, you moron! How dare you not know all about how to kill
> yourself! You stupid fool!
>
> [cleans up sarcasm with big spade]
>
> frankly it doesn't matter how you die because at the end you are always
> just as dead.
>
> Maybe I'm not making any friends here and I'm not suggesting any of you
> are stupid, but I don't think it's right to... well to come along and go
> 'cor mate, that's the worst way to die... still not as bad as xxxx'. The
> Manics have always come close to glorifying suicide, and that is stupid,
> offensive and wrong.
>
hmm yes.... you shouldn't treat suicide in the same way as calling billy
bragg a big nosed twat for a bit of publicity really, should you? and also I
think the popularity of joy division/the manics/nirvana and so on has
created the image of a "tragic genius" for anyone who commits suicide.
> love
> Mash (confrontational recently, but I don't want to upset anyone)
>
its quite fun being confrontational, isn't it? ;o)
laydeeekiller
<harm...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:8jh2c3$cul$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <395BC501...@york.ac.uk>,
> Chris Norton <cn...@york.ac.uk> wrote:
> > Beeeeeeeeeebbbbbbbbbyyyyyyyyyyyyy wrote:
> >
> > > hmm not paracetamol? isn't that supposed to be pretty much painless
> and
> > > fairly easy...?
> >
> > GOD Bebby, you moron! How dare you not know all about how to kill
> > yourself! You stupid fool!
> >
> > [cleans up sarcasm with big spade]
> >
> > Give the guy a break! That's what I would have said too, and quite
> > frankly it doesn't matter how you die because at the end you are
> always
> > just as dead.
> >
>
> and the point that offing yourself with paracetamol was a rather slow
> and painful way to die was mentioned so it's not like it would be
> unheard of for people to know that. he did *ask* if it was painless and
> fairly easy so its not like people just made some giant jump in
> conversation to share their favorite methods.
>
something like "paracetamol takes ages to kill you" buttt I didn't remember
anyone saying it was painless. ;o) which might seem silly but I presumed you
would be unconscious. if you're in hospital, can you save someone who has
overdosed on paracetamol? if you can't, wouldn't it be rather nicer to make
them unconscious while they are dying? lalala I'm not morbid I'm just
interested in that sort of thing. ;o)
> <snip>
> >The
> > Manics have always come close to glorifying suicide, and that is
> stupid,
> > offensive and wrong.
> >
>
> your opinion. they glorified a lot of stupid crap (the claims of wild
> sex and drug use)
>
drug use?? when? and I don't think the gt-era (or whenever it was) sex thing
was really the same as suicide... they said, well, there was little baby
nothing for a start which showed they didn't really agree with that, but
they're never really tried to be anti-suicide, have they? uhhh thats not
well said at all. as with probably everything else I've written today
actually. and ever. yeah. but anyway....
> that they didn't believe in. you could call that
> irresponsible and stupid but i'd like to think most people took it for
> what it was (a romanticized view of something that was very different
> in real life.)
>
hmm did they ever say exactly why they wanted to cover suicide is painless?
laydeeekiller
Rob Mitchell <ro...@MailandNews.com> wrote in message
> >hmm not paracetamol? isn't that supposed to be pretty much painless and
> >fairly easy...?
>
> painless and slitting your wrists is anywhere near vaguely effectual
>
> and you can down a bottle of sleeping pills and never wake up again
>
well I know about that hey. ;o)
> just like in the movies. Back in the real world, um, no.
> Basically, there's easy, and there's painless. There's not really a
> massive amount of crossover between the two. Unless you're American
> and can just pop down your nearest Guns'R'Us of course.
>
hmm yes. ;o)
Rob Mitchell
>> your life, because in the end you'll just end up dead anyway and it
>> won't affect you'.
>>
>ahh but why must you take it by extension? I should think most people would
>agree that it is unfair to, say, punish under-age drinking by death. by
>extension, then, any form of punishment is unfair and it is really an
>amazement that we have a police force at all.
What? OK, by logical extension then. If you accept that life in
general has worth and relevance and matters than you must accept that
any part of it has some worth and cannot be completely irrelevant, in
the same way that if you accept that (bringing it down to a far more
mundane level) 10 equal objects are worth £10 between them each has a
worth of £1. Do you see?
>> Either your life as a whole is relevant, in which
>> case the days and hours before your suicide matter as much or even
>> more than whatever actions you've performed previously, or everything
>> is totally meaningless as a whole and so no action you perform
>> ultimately matters, and under such an extremely nihilistic viewpoint,
>> it wouldn't matter a bit whether you killed yourself or not, indeed if
>> you perceive oblivion to be preferable on balance to life, why not?
>>
>hmmmm I don't agree.
It's all very well to say that but that fact you can't put up a valid
counter-argument indicates that your opinion is merely emotive and
based on little actual facts or thinking.
>well yeah, but for one thing obviously people in general are not completely
>logical and if someone is going to commit suicide, they're probably not
>going to fully consider the effects on their friends and family,
Really? I'd say concern and love for family and friends is the single
biggest limiting factor on suicidal people.
> or if
>they're being illogical or 'wrong'; secondly I would say that while it
>*does* matter what happens over a lifetime as a whole, what happens in a few
>days when you're about to die doesn't matter, because its such a short time
>and after it everything is just finished anyway.
*sighs*
see above. You're trying to see it all in black and white as a
simplification. Either any action has impications and meaning, however
little (and suicide is an action with massive implications) or none do
and you're into such total nihilism that it's impossible to make a
moral judgement on anything, because it doesn't and cannot matter at
all.
>but the japanese cultural attitude is irrelevent! if japanese people came
>here and tried to convince everyone that there was nothing wrong with
>suicide etc etc that would be wrong, surely?
On what basis? How are you justifying your ethnocentrism in calling
Western morality and culture superior to Japanese variants without
supporting evidence?
>that is true, but by singing things like "suicide is painless", and by
>glorifying richey's dissapearance (which obviously wasn't their fault, but
>it still has an effect) it can change peoples attitudes to suicide and make
>it seem less important and final and catastrophic and everything. so if
>someone was just *considering* suicide, but wouldn't normally kill
>themselves, they might think that it isn't really such a big thing, its
>something that can be casually suggested/done and so instead of stopping and
>thinking then they go ahead and do it. also someone might not even have
>thought about suicide before, so if a band introduces it it can have a very
>negative affect.
You're missing the point. People have a choice in whether they
suicide, and a choice in what lyrical material they expose themselves
to, and a choice in how they interpret that. You're accusing people of
having less of a capacity to think and discriminate than they in fact
have, that they're sheep with no capacity for rationality who are
influenced to a large extent by whatever you hear. That's far from the
truth and you're accusing people of being far shallower than you are
if you follow the media's dangerous line that people will commit
suicide because of creative influences from outside (lyrics, famous
personalities) alone.
Rachel Guest
>>well yeah, but for one thing obviously people in general are not
completely
>>logical and if someone is going to commit suicide, they're probably not
>>going to fully consider the effects on their friends and family,
>
>biggest limiting factor on suicidal people.
if you genuinely believe that you are not cared about by anyone and that no
one would give a shit if you left, then there's nothing stopping you surely?
on the other hand one girl said to me once that no matter how much she
wanted to hurt herself there were some people she would never want to hurt
that much.
ChronGen
"Rachel Guest" <da...@march-wood.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >>well yeah, but for one thing obviously people in general are not
> completely
> >>logical and if someone is going to commit suicide, they're probably
not
> >>going to fully consider the effects on their friends and family,
> >
> >biggest limiting factor on suicidal people.
>
> if you genuinely believe that you are not cared about by anyone and
that no
> one would give a shit if you left, then there's nothing stopping you
surely?
> on the other hand one girl said to me once that no matter how much she
> wanted to hurt herself there were some people she would never want to
hurt
> that much.
There's also the fact that feeling suicidal/depressed involves feeling
useless and unworthy, so you could think 'they'll all be better off
without me, i'm no good for them, i'm dragging them down, upsetting
them etc.' Which is what i think Rob meant.
°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
ChronGen
...I am all the things that you regret...
http://bite.to/chrongen
Lewis Dubois
> here and tried to convince everyone that there was nothing wrong with
> suicide etc etc that would be wrong, surely?
>
japanese suicide is an honourable and respected thing, that has thousands of
years of tradition and history going back through the samurai and all that
sort of business. why is the western viewpoint superior? especially, being
as it's drawn from the cult of christianity.
but anyways, does this conversation have to continue? i know that there are
other newsgroups that deal with the topic of suicide. and, to be frank, i
have not idea what the actual argument is about. :)
far more disturbing, i just caught a wee bit of bbc news 24 and it would
appear that 8 people have been crushed to death at a music festival in
denmark. is it roskilde, is that the danish one? but i think that's really
sad. apparently pearl jam asked people to move back, but it did little
good. thus the implication was that they were playing at the time, but i
didn't catch the whole report. bummer man.
auntie lou
Gareth Flynn
news:395BC501...@york.ac.uk...
> The
> Manics have always come close to glorifying suicide, and that is stupid,
> offensive and wrong.
I don't think that's fair. You could possibly argue that Richey did, but I
think that line in Enola/Alone (all I want to do is live/no matter how
miserable it is) sums up how Nicky (and James and Sean, I suspect) feels
about the subject. Then again, that lyric could have come from Nicky gaining
some proper perspective on the subject after Richey left.
--
Gareth Flynn
g...@staybeautiful.net
www.staybeautiful.net - A Manic Street Preachers Website
Naomi Hillman
Chris Norton <cn...@york.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:395BC501...@york.ac.uk...
> Beeeeeeeeeebbbbbbbbbyyyyyyyyyyyyy wrote:
> Maybe I'm not making any friends here and I'm not suggesting any of you
> are stupid, but I don't think it's right to... well to come along and go
> 'cor mate, that's the worst way to die... still not as bad as xxxx'. The
> Manics have always come close to glorifying suicide, and that is stupid,
> offensive and wrong.
There's nothing wrong with talking about suicide. But I'd rather talk about
making people happy than about making them die. But people who are depressed
often don't want to talk about happy things because it makes them sadder and
it's like a catch 22 and right now this cuts a little too close to the bone
and I'm going to shut up before I talk anymore incoherant crap.
Love
Naomi.