Re: Waiting for the Miracle: On Leonard Cohen
Will Dockery
> On Fri, 23 Oct 2009 17:50:25 -0400, prettystuzz <leich...@bellsouth.net>
> wrote:
>
> >Waiting for the Miracle: On Leonard Cohen
>
> >http://www.thenation.com/doc/20091026/yaffe
>
> I liked this. He captures my own ambivalence about Cohen, and he writes
> like a fan. He also almost guilt trips me into making a better study of LC.
> I can't say why he hasn't resonated with me like, say, Gordon Lightfoot,
> James Taylor, S&G, Al Green; y'all know the girls I like.
This is very interesting to me, in a non-flaming way... I suppose you
just never had any friends that were into Cohen, or you never got a
chance to explore his work... or you've tried to get into his work and
it just never "grabbed you"?
Speaking of "grabbed", how does Paul Simon hit you, Karla? I just had
a great find in the Wal Mart "Value" bin, the first PS solo record,
now on CD after being held oop for many years by Simon himsef, for
only five bucks, wonderful work, just Simon & his guitar, from around
1965. I looked it up, and the history is very interesting, to me,
anyway:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Paul_Simon_Songbook
"...The Paul Simon Songbook was recorded while Paul Simon, who had
previously worked in the rock-'n-roll genre, was in Europe trying to
make a living as a folk singer in the mid-1960s. Simon made several
trips to England in 1964 and 1965, spending most of his time
performing in small clubs and theaters. During 1965 he is known to
have played in Paris and Copenhagen, along with London and numerous
other locations in the United Kingdom.
In 1964, Simon and Art Garfunkel had recorded a folk-inspired album
for Columbia Records in the United States called Wednesday Morning, 3
A.M., as Simon & Garfunkel. While Simon was touring and appearing on
radio shows in England in 1965 (sometimes with Art Garfunkel), he
began to receive attention from fans. At the time Wednesday Morning, 3
A.M. had not yet been released in Britain (and would not be until
1968). Simon's other recordings then available in Britain consisted of
about three 45 rpm singles released on various labels, two of which
were rock-'n-roll-inspired recordings with Garfunkel under the name
Tom & Jerry. The other was representative of his experiments in folk,
but had been released in 1964 under the pseudonym Paul Kane. He was
still under contract to Columbia, so he could record for their British
label, CBS Records, and therefore decided to record a set of tracks
for release to his folk audience. The Paul Simon Songbook was the
result..."
> I found this very recent article which refers to Cohen's "A Street" as a
> "potential song that became a New Yorker poem." The article pleases
> everyone. For those who want it to be a song, Cohen refers to it as a
> lyric. For those who first read it in The New Yorker, it's a poem that
> hasn't shown up as a song.
>
> http://1heckofaguy.com/2009/10/04/leonard-cohen-on-his-poems-zen-hall...
Cool, thanks for posting.
--
"Red Lipped Stranger & other stories" by Will Dockery:
http://www.myspace.com/willdockery
George Dance
> Waiting for the Miracle: On Leonard Cohen
>
> http://www.thenation.com/doc/20091026/yaffe
es, he's Leonard Cohen Superstar now: the original triple threat,
outdrawing Madonna on a world tour that sometimes looks as if it will
never end. It's very easy to be distracted by all the hype and lose
sight of the poetry that started it all.
I'd like to draw some small attention to that by asking readers, after
they've read that rockstar piece, to have a look at some of that early
poetry. Here are a couple of links to what may be the best of the
batch.
A Kite is a Victim
http://www.coviews.com/viewtopic.php?p=211820
You Have the Lovers
http://www.zianet.com/lilbuddy/cohen.htm
[PS - I crossposted this to AMLC, where I'm a subscriber and your
article is on topic. If you don't want the crosspost, please snip it
in your reply. If you don't want crossposting of your stuff in the
future, please let me know.]
Will Dockery
> On Oct 24, 2:57 pm, prettystuzz <leich...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> > Karla <karl...@NEVERcomcast.net> wrote:
>
> > > >Waiting for the Miracle: On Leonard Cohen
>
> > > >http://www.thenation.com/doc/20091026/yaffe
>
> > > like a fan. He also almost guilt trips me into making a better study of LC.
> > > I can't say why he hasn't resonated with me like, say, Gordon Lightfoot,
> > > James Taylor, S&G, Al Green; y'all know the girls I like.
>
> > was (perhaps better than most) part of that phenomena which got approval
> > from the sophisticated (and older) part of the non-pop culture. That is
> > to say, he didn't sing about cars or hope to introduce a new dance
> > craze. His poetics weren't more sophisticated than Chuck Berry's, but
> > they were less accessible to the AM radio culture, probably because his
> > allusions were 'literary'. It's probably the 'safe' (MOR) folkeys like
> > Cohen and Judy Collins (and the nascent hip culture of the middle 1960s)
> > that convinced (relatively non-commercial) FM stations to emulate
> > AM-music radio, which soon led to FM's playing longer musical
> > selections. I wouldn't underestimate the effect of the much wider
> > frequency band that FM offered - you could hear cymbals in your car!
>
> The FM switch to MOR/rock was a big innovation. Suddenly there was a
> lot of new music being heard that hadn't had an outlet before.
> Psychedelic music was the big one, of course, but there was room for a
> lot of other genres: folk rock was another big one. Cohen's first
> album was released at folk-rock's peak -- a year after Blonde on
> Blonde and Lightfoot!, a year before Bookends - and he fit into the
> adult/oriented part of that genre nicely.
>
> Cohen always knew he wouldn't be able to make a living as a poet; his
> original plan was to become a bestselling novelist. However, that
> failed when his second novel, Beautiful Losers, bombed; which is when
> he got the idea of becoming a singer/songwriter instead.
One of the best L. Cohen quotes, for me, was the one where he said he
played a Ray Charles 45 over and over until he "got it". Wish I still
had my Creem magazines from the early 1970s, they pointed me to so
much of the right stuff that would never have come my way otherwise,
down here in the hinterlands.
Luckily, my high school teachers-turned-friends, Dan Barfield & Angie
Oliver, were big Leonard Cohen supporters. I once went to Atlanta with
Angie specifically to track down the oop Cohen novels "Favorite Game"
& "Beautiful Losers" (the second one copped by Bob Seger, more-or-less
in song, oddly) which she said I really needed to read. We didn't find
copies of either but it was a good excuse to for a trip to the city...
> > Cohen didn't impress me, probably because I wasn't impressed (or
> > 'shocked') with his wide range of allusion, which seemed forced and
> > patronizing even if it weren't so. I didn't need a literary and
> > sophisticated voice to present as evidence that da cultcha was
> > 'important'. But I was glad that publishers had him to use in their
> > textbooks, whether they were pandering or sincere.
> > E.g., New Poets, New Music. Ed. John Schmittroth and John Mahoney
> > (Winthrop 1970). With (complete list) Jacques Brel, Leonard Cohen, Judy
> > Collins, Donovan, Ted Joans, Don L. Lee, John Lennon, Paul McCartney,
> > Joni Mitchell, Laura Nyro, Phil Ochs, Buffy Saint-Marie, Pete Seeger,
> > Paul Simon, Nina Simone.
>
> No Dylan! No Jim Morrison! No Syd Barrett! No George Harrison!
No Lou Reed, no Ray Davies... no David Blue...
> > From the "Introduction[:]
> > What follows is a selection of poems which, if not uniquely gathered, is
> > at least not typical. The poems are the lyrics of the new music, and the
> > reason for this book is the belief, which many share, that these lyrics
> > represent the mainstream of contemporary poetry.
> > In the world of art, particularly poetry and music, two phenomena have
> > characterized the last decade. The first can be called a new
> > renaissance, a spirit of aesthetic dominance that has given breath to
> > men and women who, in a manner reminiscent of the 16th century, combine
> > talents as poets, composers, and singers. The second is the almost
> > complete failure of the academic world to recognize the existence of the
> > work these artists have produced".
> > The remainder of the Introduction (some two-and-a-half pages) discusses
> > the "impasse" of "contemporary poetry in America" at "the end of the
> > 1950s", and goes on to discuss the "descendents of the beats"; jazz;
> > blues;the emergence of the 'hyphenates' (singers who also wrote their
> > stuff); and the early reactions to The Beatles' hair more than to their
> > songs.
> > When I heard Nina Simone's Suzanne in 1969 the course and direction of
> > my life changed; it wasn't altered, it changed. (I have most of her
> > recordings, one or two of Cohen's.)
>
> I don't consider Cohen's early music very accessible. Everything's
> mixed way down; all that can be heard is his voice and one guitar. And
> the voice grates; 70's Cohen is the prototype for Tom Waits. For years
> I'd recommend that people who wanted to learn about him should start
> with Jennifer Warnes's album Famous Blue Raincoat.
I guess I'm just one of those folks who really does enjoy that kind of
vocal... for me, the early (through the 1970s) Leonard Cohen is the
best, most listenable work.
> > > I can't say why he hasn't resonated with me like, say, Gordon Lightfoot,
> > > James Taylor, S&G, Al Green; y'all know the girls I like.
> > That list reads like the direct line of descent from Sam Cook and Nat
> > Cole before him.
>
> Don't forget Tony Williams. Crooners all. (Well, Taylor and Simon are
> borderline.)
>
> Cohen's in a different tradition, with Dylan, Waits, Lou Reed and a
> few others: one could call them anticrooners.> >http://1heckofaguy.com/2009/10/04/leonard-cohen-on-his-poems-zen-hall...
> > > s-6-good-songs-money-america-and-the-squirrel/
Will Dockery
> On Oct 24, 3:38 am, Karla <karl...@NEVERcomcast.net> wrote:
> > On Fri, 23 Oct 2009 17:50:25 -0400, prettystuzz wrote:
>
> > >Waiting for the Miracle: On Leonard Cohen
>
> > >http://www.thenation.com/doc/20091026/yaffe
>
> > I liked this. He captures my own ambivalence about Cohen, and he writes
> > like a fan. He also almost guilt trips me into making a better study of LC.
> > I can't say why he hasn't resonated with me like, say, Gordon Lightfoot,
> > James Taylor, S&G, Al Green; y'all know the girls I like.
>
I've often wondered what Karla's experiences with Leonard Cohen were,
since I've noticed that she's made it a point several times over the
years that she never cared for his work, but never gives details on
what she's actually heard of his, and I've asked.
Much as I like Lightfoot's work, and the other folks she mentions,
none of them, besides maybe Paul Simon, come even close to Cohen's
level... from the way I see it, anyhow. I'll keep quiet and see if you
can get her to write more about her perspective on LC... I think maybe
you have it when you speculate that she just missed his highest
points. Which we may not even agree on what that is, possibly.
I usually name "New Skin For An Old Ceremony" as a good place to catch
Leonard Cohen in his prime... the lead track on that one probably
shows how much of an influence he's been on me, starting back in my
childhood, when these songs were brand-new, word-on-the-street news:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56hiB4eTzBE
Some small, fair us excerpts, complete song-poem at:
http://www.leonardcohenfiles.com/album5.html
There is a War
There is a war between the rich and poor,
a war between the man and the woman.
There is a war between the ones who say there is a war
and the ones who say there isn't.
Why don't you come on back to the war, that's right, get in it,
why don't you come on back to the war, it's just beginning.
Well I live here with a woman and a child,
the situation makes me kind of nervous.
Yes, I rise up from her arms, she says "I guess you call this love";
I call it service.
Why don't you come on back to the war, don't be a tourist,
why don't you come on back to the war, before it hurts us,
why don't you come on back to the war, let's all get nervous.
You cannot stand what I've become,
you much prefer the gentleman I was before.
I was so easy to defeat, I was so easy to control,
I didn't even know there was a war [...]
-L. Cohen
(Excerpt from NEW SKIN FOR THE OLD CEREMONY, August 1974. Click on the
song title to see the lyrics, or just scroll down. Click on the
RealAudio or WAV button next to the song title to hear a 30 second
sound clip from the official Sony site: www.leonardcohen.com.
Copyright © 1974 Sony Music Entertainment (Canada) Inc.)
Yes, this, to me, is Cohen at the top of the game, an unquestionable
masterpiece of folk-rock & poetry, and said to have energized even Bob
Dylan to get back on it, leading to Blood on the Tracks & the Rolling
Thunder Revue tour of 1975, which L. Cohen was a part of.
You're probably too
> jaded to get a pull-the-back-of -my-head-off experience from reading
> any of his poems; but maybe this will let you feel like Meryl Streep
> for a while:
>
> Leonard Cohen, "Dance Me to the End of Love"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ye6JssTdnvw
>
> > I found this very recent article which refers to Cohen's "A Street" as a
> > "potential song that became a New Yorker poem." The article pleases
> > everyone. For those who want it to be a song, Cohen refers to it as a
> > lyric. For those who first read it in The New Yorker, it's a poem that
> > hasn't shown up as a song.
>
> >http://1heckofaguy.com/2009/10/04/leonard-cohen-on-his-poems-zen-hall...
>
> Thank you. Much appreciated.
Will Dockery
> In article <1c78be61-8f67-4221-a76f-e13ad2759...@j19g2000vbp.googlegroups.com>,
> George Dance says...
>
>
>
> >On Oct 24, 3:38=A0am, Karla <karl...@NEVERcomcast.net> wrote:
> >> On Fri, 23 Oct 2009 17:50:25 -0400, prettystuzz <leich...@bellsouth.net>
> >> wrote:
>
> >> >Waiting for the Miracle: On Leonard Cohen
>
> >> >http://www.thenation.com/doc/20091026/yaffe
>
> >> I liked this. He captures my own ambivalence about Cohen, and he writes
> >C.
> >> I can't say why he hasn't resonated with me like, say, Gordon Lightfoot,
> >> James Taylor, S&G, Al Green; y'all know the girls I like.
>
> >jaded to get a pull-the-back-of -my-head-off experience from reading
> >any of his poems; but maybe this will let you feel like Meryl Streep
> >for a while:
>
> >Leonard Cohen, "Dance Me to the End of Love"
>
> Thanks for the link to this song, George. I think that had I heard it when I was
> enraptured by old movies, when I learned to play love songs from musicals on the
> piano, and The Beatles had just aired on Ed Sullivan, I might have been hooked
> on Cohen. The song now, reminds me of Those Were the Days, first sung by Mary
> Hopkin, a song I learned to play and sing at a young age. I liked the romantic,
> dark, sad, nostalgia of it, even as an adolescent, and I can see me liking Dance
> Me to the End of Love back then.
>
> I just spent a little time listening to old Leonard Cohen songs on YouTube. I
> listened whenever possible to the earlier recordings. Here is a partial list of
> what I listened to, put together quickly by googling what others think are his
> greatest songs. Most, in my old age, remind me of other songs. Only one, as I
> sat here today listening, really grabbed me, and I can't account for it: Famous
> Blue Raincoat. If I had to guess, I would say of the songs I listened to of his,
> Cohen manages to stay out of the song. I also like the ambiguity.
>
> Some of the melody of Suzanne and Hey, That's No Way to Say Goodbye sound so
> similar. Does that ever get mentioned?
Not really, but now that you mention it, I can see that, musically, at
least.
> His Chelsea Hotel No. 2 makes me think of Joni Mitchell's Free Man in Paris,
> which I prefer.
>
> Sisters of Mercy - last line is cool: "we weren't lovers like that and besides
> it would still be all right."
>
> Will mentions There is a War. Honestly, for a stir-em-up song, Dylan's The Times
> They Are A-Changin' grabbed me long before. The energy! I'm pretty sure it's the
> first song I learned to play on my guitar. This verse in particular rallied me
> out of my middle-class neighboorhood slump and decay, into wanting, demanding a
> different world:
>
> "Come mothers and fathers
> Throughout the land
> And don't criticize
> What you can't understand
> Your sons and your daughters
> Are beyond your command
> Your old road is
> Rapidly agin'.
> Please get out of the new one
> If you can't lend your hand
> For the times they are a-changin'."
>
> And, oh my God, how about Edwin Starr's "War"?
>
> Ya, I think it was just a matter of not bumping into LC at the right time. There
> were only so many hours in the day.
That sounds reasonable... timing can be important, I guess.
> Suzanne
> Leonard Cohen - Isle of Wight 1970http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zqu3U05tkAw
>
> So Long, Marianne (Live 1972)
> Leonard Cohenhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNvRyzUPm-Y
>
> Sisters of Mercy
> Leonard Cohen - Sisters of Mercy (Live in Israel 1972)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HEHsEN8T1k
>
> Chelsea Hotel No. 2
> Leonard Cohen "Chelsea Hotel No 2" 1974 Audiohttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5p33KnNB3vo
>
> Bird on a Wire
> Leonard Cohen - Bird on the Wire (live perf 1972)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mjem3G_QsKA
>
> Hey, That's No Way to Say Goodbye
> Leonard Cohen - Hey, That's No Way To Say Goodbye (live 1972)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7QZ6L8d5h8
>
> Famous Blue Raincoat
> Famous Blue Raincoat - Leonard cohen
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fMnF0Fvdpo
>
> Everybody Knows
> Leonard Cohen @ Roskilde 1988 (2) - Everybody Knows
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1sWA1ehC8Y
>
> I’m Your Man
> I'm Your Man - Leonard Cohen - Lyrics
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U37uJIYyxuY
>
> Take This Longing
> TAKE THIS LONGING-Leonard Cohen
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dpwJS1-uYM&feature=PlayList&p=1463517...
>
> Do I Have To Dance All Nigh
thttp://1heckofaguy.com/2007/01/12/the-two-best-leonard-cohen-songs-yo...
>
> There’s No Reason Why You Should Remember Me
http://1heckofaguy.com/2007/01/12/the-two-best-leonard-cohen-songs-yo...
>
> Say, I don't remember seeing Rolling Stone's list of the 500 greatest songs of
> all time. Cohen doesn't make it; neither does Gordon Lightfoot. Soul is
> represented and I forgot to mention, that along with The Movement's call to
> action to free my mind, my soul found a way with The Temptations, Sly, Marvin
> Gaye, Sister Re, Isaac Hayes...
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_Stone%27s_500_Greatest_Songs_of_...
Wow, I can't say you haven't tried to get Leonard Cohen now, Karla!
Karla
I'm still listening. I like this one:
Take This Waltz
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsCbA6s763w&feature=player_embedded
based on a Federico Garcia Lorca poem "Little Viennese Waltz."
Will Dockery
> On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 20:02:02 -0700 (PDT), Will Dockery wrote:
>
> >Wow, I can't say you haven't tried to get Leonard Cohen now, Karla!
>
> I'm still listening. I like this one:
>
> based on a Federico Garcia Lorca poem "Little Viennese Waltz."
I've posted this one before here, but don't know if you saw it, pretty
much my favorite of the 1980s, or "mid-period" Cohen. He had some
problems during that decade I won't go into that made for a very slow
output of songs, and sometimes I wondered if he would ever make it
back, I think it was 1989 when he did "make it back" big-time, with
his "I'm Your Man" record album. This one, "The Gyspy's Wife", is from
1982 or so, I'd have to check the year but that seems about like the
year his Recent Songs record came out that this was a part of:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-hOpyGKfmo
Another couple of favorites were personally introduced to me by my
high school English teacher-turned-friend, Angie, in the Summer of
1976, these two would make her get watery-eyed for certain reasons I
won't go into right now, who knows, the songs may be self-explanitory,
even:
"Who By Fire":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQTRX23EMNk
"The Partisan":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S34cVkL6zCE
Guess that's enough for now, always a pleasure discussing and
introducing people to the mighty Leonard Cohen, Karla.
Will Dockery
news:69fe9083-985d-4a66...@googlegroups.com...
On Sunday, December 16, 2018 at 12:03:42 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> On Sunday, December 16, 2018 at 11:18:34 AM UTC-5, Michael Pendragon
> wrote:
> > On Sunday, December 16, 2018 at 11:08:58 AM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> >
> > > Which gets back to my stance, that Leonard Cohen was a poet and
> > > novelist before becoming a folk singer much later.
> > >
> >
> > Except that he wasn't.
> >
> > He was a Yamma Poet ("Yeah, I'm a poet") -- much like Will Dockery.
> >
> > The difference is that he became a successful singer-songwriter, whereas
> > Dockery remained strictly in the "Yamma" category.
>
> So, you argue that Leonard Cohen was not a poet, did not write and publish
> poetry?
>
> I said that he was not a successful poet ... until after he became a
> successful folk singer.
Success is measured by more than just commercial results, even you must know
that.
> http://blog.flametreepublishing.com/classic-rock-bands/leonard-cohen-the-early-years
>
> "His initial poems demonstrated an already very lyrical approach, the
> tonality of his chosen words, rhymes and rhythms hanging in the air and
> reverberating with the same raw feeling [...] Leonard cited his poetic
> heroes as W.B. Yeats and Federico García Lorca, and their influence can
> certainly be felt in his own writings, which similarly embraced a style
> that was at once simple and complex – a depth of meaning delicately held
> in an otherwise minimalist structure and sound. His first published poems
> appeared in the 1950s literary magazine CIV/n [...] During these years he
> met the poet Irving Layton, who became a great mentor and friend, helping
> in the publication of Leonard’s first poetry book (Let Us Compare
> Mythologies). The collection was well received, helping to fulfill his
> intent to become a writer. After university, Leonard published his next
> poetry collection The Spice-Box of Earth [...] his third volume of poetry
> Flowers for Hitler..."
>
Typical fanboy hagiography.
I'm not arguing whether his 1950s "poetry" was any good, as I've yet to come
across any of it in poetry collections like Norton's.
I am arguing that he was not a successful "poet," until after he achieved
success as a singer. Jim Morrison, Bob Dylan, et al., followed similar
paths.