Portrait of a Cohen Fan
Solitude
to start posting again. But first I must disagree with the responses to
Frog relating to "having to be noisy" or some such in order to be a
"member of the family". This group was my first subscribed newsgroup,
some 3-4 years ago...i believe i only posted once or twice, and joined
the IRC discussion only once...but this makes me no less a part of it.
Although the slavishness turns my stomach at times, I have gained
insight from this group, not only with regard to the nature of LC's
work, but to other subject matter as well: philosophy, creativity,
illusion, art, budhism, and more.
Doubless there are many solitary, shy and quiet cohen fans who subscribe
to this group, after all, aren't they/we even more drawn to his music
than the more boisterous among us? although LC certainly does have his
priceless bawdy moments, the majority of his work is pensive. I will
give this subject more thought and post again soon-- after all, I *am* a
member of the family, although residing in the shadows...
love,
solitude
Bill Van Dyk
Snow
> . . . the slavishness turns my stomach . . .
Can you elucidate, please?
Bill Van Dyk
Yeah, the "slavishness" pricked my swelled thumb too. Another word for the
alleged absense of "a life outside the ng", isn't it?
I'm not completely unsympathetic to the sentiment. I knew a woman in
college who claimed to adore Leonard Cohen. But I could never persuade her
to take her clothes off. Then I realized that it was probably me. I
thought of the Bob Dylan lines:
You know, they refused Jesus too.
He said, "You're not him."
So, there you go. There is a life outside of the Cohen Admiration Society.
But is it bereft of illusions?
On the other hand, I knew another woman in college. She thought Cohen was
depressing, boring, and unlistenable. But she gave me more poems and songs
than the bright girls who wore the baubles of literary attunement.
Here's a question for the NG. A two-parter. Is it possible to admire and
understand Cohen's work apart from the sensualism expressed in it? Part
two: does Cohen's work have an effect on, or is it an expression of, your
personal relationships, your emotional life, your feelings about your
body? In other words, is there a loss of aesthetic integrity if we admire
his Jesus in the wooden tower, but not the unmade bed, the joints of her
thighs, the anal sex? How abstract is this devotion? To what extent to we
idealize in others what we fear for ourselves?
Solitude wrote:
Solitude
it hurt Sandy to have her slavishness attacked and I think it's time we
considered what it
means, exactly, to attack those beliefs and wonderments and Hallelujahs
within urselves so basic to who we are. It does no one much good to be put
on the defensive for believing with all their heart LC makes a profound
difference in their life, does it?
_________________
Certainly not. I meant no harm, and was not attacking any fan's method of
adoration....in fact I was not "attacking" attall, simply
observing/questioning. This particular comment was not the point of my
post and I should have guessed it could cause some ruffling of the
proverbial feathers of this flock (tryin' in our way to be free). Please
accept my humble apology if i have made any family members feel "attacked".
But perhaps it is also worthy of study/consideration, this defensiveness
within you.
To elucidate as requested, I define slavishness as "blindly dependent or
imitative; as 'slavish adherence to a model' " (Webster's New Universal
Unabridged Dictionary, 2d ed.). Much-deserved admiration, study, love,
praise, glorification and gratitude do not qualify. My stomach, well, only
turns (in a downward or sinking direction) when I read comments comparing
lc to god or attempting to imitate/emulate.
I, too, am devoted, but to the man, the poet, the teacher, to the saint
perhaps, but not to the god, the dictator. Within my small understanding
of his work, lies the premise that it is better to question and consider
than to blindly adhere or follow, but I may be wrong.
in his grace,
solitude
JB181159
Im Artikel <36118139...@sentex.net>, Bill Van Dyk <bva...@sentex.net>
schreibt:
>Here's a question for the NG. A two-parter. Is it possible to admire and
>understand Cohen's work apart from the sensualism expressed in it? Part
>two: does Cohen's work have an effect on, or is it an expression of, your
>personal relationships, your emotional life, your feelings about your
>body? In other words, is there a loss of aesthetic integrity if we admire
>his Jesus in the wooden tower, but not the unmade bed, the joints of her
>thighs, the anal sex? How abstract is this devotion? To what extent to we
>idealize in others what we fear for ourselves?
*** Well, my entrance to Cohen is exactly the unmatched complexity of his work,
this unique fabric seemlessly woven from holy sensualism and sensual holiness.
You raised the issue of (aestetic) integrity. Which is an extremely wise
viewpoint to be mentioned. Not only regarding the aestetics but in general.
Maybe it is in fact this sense of integrity, that binds me so inescapably and
softly to sleuth his track...
There are plenty of poets and bards, who approach comparable headings. But
Cohen is the one, who would not only talk about beauty but veritably court
beauty by putting to action his own inner beauty, by venerating beauty with
words of beauty, by even embellishing the before unadorned audience. When Cohen
opens his mouth to talk beauty, he kisses awake inestemable beauty in each and
every speck of dust...
And never he tries nor even needs to exclude ugliness from the ensemble playing
but unerringly he would succeed to include whatever respective counterpart to
the perfect choir:
Cohen´s hurting-hurtful expert talk shop about pain exposes the audience to
each and every twinge and pang, their own biography had, has (and most likely
will have) ready for them but synchronously it as well contains all conceivable
comfort.
Sensually dealing with the multifarious topics of sexuality his images, voice
and tunes would prove to be the pinnacle of aphrodisiacs - swelling,
moistening, arousing, ramming hard and opening wide, titillating gently,
embracing savely and satisfying to tears - a tightrope walk ply orgy and
forlornness.
Death never ever appears as dead, as when Leonard Cohen would illuminate the
winking skull´s lipless smile, but the aware his sinister verses make us of the
couching skeleton inside our throbbing selves - hardly ever we feel as alive
and vibrating, than while listening to his danses macabre, he?
As for part 2 of your question - well, my own devotion to Cohen´s gifts is not
nearly as abstract, as it would be (much more!...) comfortable for me ;-)
Judith
Tom D
and pertinent piece, mostly snipped, cos I love to cut-up:
>
>...
> it hurt Sandy to have
>her slavishness attacked and I think it's time we considered what it
>means, exactly, to attack those beliefs and wonderments and Hallelujahs
>...
> and I think, well,
>this feels good and that's it and all that matters.
>At least to moi :-) BoHo
>
Yeah. Moi Aussie.
Love *is* the only engine of survival, thorns an' all.
I think, therefore I am...I think.
I know I think, and therefore I know I am intelligent.
I know roses have thorns, but I seek them out and pick them because I
choose to...slavishly, even. I'm free to do that. While I may be
compelled by whatever apparently irresistible drive, it is ultimately
still my choice, and no one is qualified to tell me I am wrong. They
can give their opinon. But judgement and sentencing is non sequiter.
(that was Voltaire, above, wasn't it? And I seem to recall the
inimitable Grrtdame quoting Volly thusly - and I invoke the
paraphrasing licence of an ignoramus):
"[I disagree vehemently with what he is saying, but I vehemently
defend his right to say it]."
And, please!....don't ANYone take this wrongly, or personally...I just
felt like saying it, for my own reasons.
Tom.
Geoff Gompers
Geoff no rey
Tom D
Part 1: Yes, definitely.
Part 2: Yes, a definite, obvious (to my friends) effect on my personal
emotional, socio-interactive life; but no, no effect on how I feel
about my body, cos, hey, I'm happy with the way I am. I'm perfectly
imperct. Hmmm...idealising in others what we fear for ourselves?...I
dunno about that one...Personally, I (like to think I) don't idealise
others to the extent of envy. For me it is more the admiration of what
(some) others can and have achieved, of what they have, the gift. But
not envy, jealousy or fear. Fear comes of not accepting and
understanding something. Accept, understand, and recognise it is a
part of others. An athletic guy, a stunning woman, a bald stodgy
intelligent professor, an overweight mother cradling a child, a
hairless cancer sufferer with a beaming smile, a broken lonely woman
alone in front of her computer, a witty inexhaustible man-Dyke(!)
making me laugh just when I'm about to nod off, an Englishman who
somehow lost (or found?) his way in Norway, the bright young
frighteningly talented poet with Gusto, the saints and the Goddesses
and the awesome Nowhere-woman...and the old man with the gravelly
voice and a spiky haircut!!!...they're all ideals...as am I. No
aspirations to be them, but admiration of whom/what they are. No fear,
because there is no desire or intent to be, or ?take that which is
they, and clearly not I. ... (It kinda made sense as I was thinking
about it, but...ah well...only two more days to go to the
weekend..hehehe). The one thing I look to better myself in, and
understand more, is 'love-life' (not as in sex, but as in
'loving-life', though I could do with a tiny amount of betterment
inthe sexual arena...instrucoresses, the line forms not to the left or
right, but in front! <eg>). I wish I was, and I want to be, a better
loving person. For me, Leonard's songs have brought me far.
Tom.
Tom D
I was!! :o)
Solitude
Bill Van Dyk wrote:
> Here's a question for the NG. A two-parter. Is it possible to admire and
> understand Cohen's work apart from the sensualism expressed in it?
There would be nothing left. All aspirations, evocations, prayers, dirges,
poems and songs penned by lc seem to be expressed through his sensualism. I
can't imagine.
> Part
> two: does Cohen's work have an effect on, or is it an expression of, your
> personal relationships, your emotional life, your feelings about your
> body?
For me, a beautiful *expression of* being terribly alive.
> In other words, is there a loss of aesthetic integrity if we admire
> his Jesus in the wooden tower, but not the unmade bed, the joints of her
> thighs, the anal sex?
Absolutely!
> How abstract is this devotion?
Now, there's a question!
> To what extent to we
> idealize in others what we fear for ourselves?
Do you mean by putting lc on a pedestal we are filling our own
emotional/spiritual creative voids, that we fear our own loathsome emptiness
and inability to connect? I don't think so, as there is so much inspiration
and comfort in his work.
/solitude
Geoff Gompers
clean neat and reverent. In other words, a good scout.
Geoff no rey
Tom D
way...
Ignorantly yers,
TomD (fer d'uh)
PS: hey, Rey-less, I got 2 Qs for you:
1. which was Descares' quote - edumacate me, will ya?
2. how come you double up your replies with a post ot he ng AND one ot
the email addy?!
Geoff Gompers
Fer yer information, my REY is bigger than your REY so don't go callin
me Rey less!
1. I think.....therefore......I am........... (Descartes'
Meditations). You gest Used poetic lisence on it.
2. You think I know how to work this cork sucken putor buttons!
If it gets me posted, then I don't ferk with success.
Geoff
Valerie Shertzman
finishing his glass of wine, when the waiter came to him and asked if he
wanted another. Decartes replied "I think not" and immediately disappeared.
Geoff Gompers
>
> Rene Descartes was having lunch in a small cafe in Paris he was just
> finishing his glass of wine, when the waiter came to him and asked if he
> wanted another. Decartes replied "I think not" and immediately disappeared.
He he!
Geoff rey less
Tom D
(holding my aching sides)... and a good motning to you , too! :-)
Tom.
Bill Van Dyk
bodacio...@hotmail.com wrote:
> In article <36118139...@sentex.net>,
> BVD <bva...@sentex.net> wrote:
>
> > So, there you go. There is a life outside of the Cohen Admiration Society.
> > But is it bereft of illusions?
> Complementary. Do you think, BVD, we idealise in others what we fear for
> ourselves? How do you mean this? Sincerely curious, Bo
I have been ceaselessly fascinated, appalled, and depressed about some of the
developments in Europe as the Nazis were driven back across France, Belgium,
Holland, etc. One day, a man has "No Jews Allowed" on his bakery door. The next
day, after "liberation", he's leading a gang, rounding up the collaborators,
shaving the heads of girls who fraternized... There was a study done that showed
that most of these post-war "heroes" were actually the most cooperative with the
Nazis. The real members of the Resistance seemed to have a more sanguine
understanding of human behavior.
So, in a roundabout way, these men, knowing their own despicable hearts, were
eager to impute their own defects upon others, as a way of deflecting disapproval
of themselves, or because they understood all too well the temptation to
collaborate.
You, know, I'm going nowhere with this. I don't think it applies. As I said,
I've known some people for whom Cohen's work is utterly academic, and that always
disappointed me. To me, it really means something. Among other things, it means
that the intensity with which you feel life is related to the intensity with
which you act. In Hallelujah, David's throne is broken, but he still whispers
"hallelujah". I think of a girl I met in Europe: we were supposed to travel to
Spain together, in presumed intimacy. But her stern aunt told her that she
wouldn't be allowed to stay at her house in Almelo if she went with me. Well,
she stayed with her stern aunt, in Almelo, for most of her six months of "seeing
the world". . I bumped into her a year later. Feeling I had nothing more to
lose, I told her how pissed off I had been, how I had envisioned us leading
sensual little bohemian lives, wandering the cafe's of Paris, the streets of
Spain, the monuments of Rome. She said, "and you expected to share a bed, didn't
you?" I said, "Damn right, and it could have been beautiful." I've never heard
a more eloquent expression of bitter regret over a bad decision than her simple
"I know". Years later, do you think she looks back and thinks, "Wow! Nearly
made a big mistake there! Phew. Good thing my aunt talked me out of it."
So, I've made a few mistakes. But I'm still whispering Hallelujah. In short, I
don't think I even know what I was talking about.
Bill Van Dyk
Some of you wrote very beautiful responses to my question about the relationship
of Cohen's work to your real lives. Thank you. You can count on this NG to
provide the most wonderful words when you need them.
Trying for clarity: I happen to know, without guessing, that that girl I left in
Almelo deeply regretted her decision to make her thoughts "academic", to stay in
her safe little haven, to retreat from passion. She admired the passion in "New
Skin for the Old Ceremony", in particular, but couldn't bring herself to actually
taste it for herself. Now, her life is "fine", but she admitted, a few years
ago, that if she could do it over again, she would have grabbed that suitcase.
Anyway, just a thought.
As a separate post, a song she gave me.
Bill Van Dyk
From my brilliant first album, "Bill's Greatest Hits".
(1) It's funny how sometimes a little thing you stop to do
Can make an avalanche of memories and emotions fall on you
Like when I was standing outside in a snow storm just today
Taking letters from the mailbox as kids went out to play
I was thinking this reminds me of something long ago
Then I felt like you were standing there, beside me in the snow
I was thinking that I knew someday that I'd be thinking this
Like that time way back in Amsterdam in nine-teen seventy-six
That was years ago, Ten of the longest years of my life
I was madly in love with you, though I can't remember why
You never listened to me then, I wonder if you're listening now,
Oh baby, are you listening now? Oh baby, are you listening now?
(2) You were living down in Leiden with a spinster aunt of yours
I took you down to Normandy, to walk among the wars
You were talking poetry and music, and going with me to Spain
I never thought I'd feel that close to anyone else again
You never told me what it was that made you change your mind
Was it the man you saw before you; or the one you left behind
I have a picture of you taken; in the streets of Amsterdam
Your eyes were cold and distant, though I never knew it then
(3) I remember we were talking; I was about to board my train
I was angry, I was bitter, you were trying to explain
Then I shuddered or I shivered, I don't remember what you said
But when you turned to kiss me farewell, I turned away instead
I went down to Paris, and I thought it was the end
I was walking through the rain in the woods out by Vicennes
There was a old man on a park bench, and an empty bottle of wine
There were the ruins of a castle, and the ruins of my mind
[Chorus]
(4) The last time that I saw you, you were traveling through the States
And you dropped by to have a beer, for all the old times sakes
And you told me you were happy, but if you could do it all again
You'd've have grabbed your goddamned suitcase, and joined me on that train
The memories that blow into your face are incomplete
Like the faces of the strangers that you pass along the street
Sometimes those memories grab you like some kind of heart attack
Other times they sneak behind you and just stab you in the back.
Copyright (c) 1981 Bill Van Dyk
Valerie Shertzman
resident legal eagle.
Valerie
Geoff Gompers wrote:
> Valerie Shertzman wrote:
> >
> > Rene Descartes was having lunch in a small cafe in Paris he was just
> > finishing his glass of wine, when the waiter came to him and asked if he
> > wanted another. Decartes replied "I think not" and immediately disappeared.
Tom D
of it? 's not bad. And the mistake?...definitely hers! :o)
Tom.
Bill Van Dyk <bva...@sentex.net> wrote:
Geoff Gompers
Does that mean I get to worship my goddess in person? Distance has no
priveleges, but it does make the heart ache?
\ Devoutly yours
Geoff no rey
Tom D
Tom.
Valerie Shertzman
Geoff Gompers wrote:
> Val--
> Does that mean I get to worship my goddess in person? Distance has no
> priveleges, but it does make the heart ache?
> \ Devoutly yours
> Geoff no rey
Of couse as one of my first followers you will be welcomed with open arms, open mouth,
open..........etc.
TG
Geoff Gompers
You're most upright(ious) subject, morally, and otherwise.
Geoff no rey
Bill Van Dyk
Bill Van Dyk
entrancing. I love it.
Tom D wrote:
> OY! You said TWO parts, not seventeen!!!!
>
> Part 1: Yes, definitely.
> Part 2: Yes, a definite, obvious (to my friends) effect on my personal
> emotional, socio-interactive life; but no, no effect on how I feel
> about my body, cos, hey, I'm happy with the way I am. I'm perfectly ....
>>and many other interesting things to say way beyond the call of duty
Bill Van Dyk
Nicest was a lingering kiss after I wrote a song for a girl and
performed for her. The song, that is. I performed the song. It had a
lot of bar chords so I really had to go down on the beauty, my fingers
splaying themselves everywhere like small lotus spiders trying to
harvest a pearl from a delicate little shell.
I know what you're thinking.
You're thinking: it is possible to have too many metaphors.
You're right. And thanks for the compliment.
Bill Van Dyk
making money at it, except computers, which is pretty odd, actually. What
happened was I realized very quickly that it was like the early days of
medicine, and that this scam was likely to attract a lot of money, so I
bought a computer and took it home and took it apart and learned all the
correct incantations (like, "well, we'll install a Novell ipx client,
configure it to accept TCP/IP packets from the router, and then see if
your ethernet card has the correct driver....") and people hand over
fabulous sums of money so they can send e-mails with smiley faces in
them.... so, the rest of my life has become an after-thought, and I live
for the after-thoughts.... but, hey, have you ever seen "The Full Monty"?
There must be better rackets on this planet. What I really want to be is a
"kept man". Any takers?
BodaciousHowler wrote:
> BVD, I only have one question: You and Saint Perfekk? You ain't the
> same do-everything-in-the-world-so-excellently-well person are you? I
> mean, I just re-checked the gallery and there's Jane and there's Bill