What's the difference between Jungle & Drum'n'Bass?
Tekno...@usa.net
Can someone give me a clear definition of the difference between Jungle
and
Drum'n'Bass??
If I were to compose or lay down some beats, what is the musical
difference?
thanx
Oktal
Tekno...@usa.net wrote in message <3590C93D...@usa.net>...
>Can someone give me a clear definition of the difference between
>Jungle and Drum'n'Bass??
I do this one nearly weekly so, here's the standard post:
29/04/98
By the end of '94 Goldie, Doc Scott and several other noteworthy artists
defined the distinction between drum'n'bass and jungle as being either the
influence or intent.
Jungle = Fun, reggae orientated bass, dance fundamental element.
Drum'n'Bass = Music, serious.
If you could possibly find a way of attaching the word "deep" to the
descriptive of a track without it being humourous it's probably best defined
as drum'n'bass.
...and I don't think its that much of a dumb question as people often use
the terms interchangeably in reference to things they clearly defined
elsewhere. An example of this is Goldie, one of the first people to declare
that he was a drum'n'bass artist had KRS One going off about being in the
jungle - confusing an already disorientated media who had just been dissed
for tagging his music "ambient jungle". So all in all who gives a shit?
Its just a label that someones stuck to certain parts of the genre and it'll
probably only stick for a few years anyway! I notice that the artists I
admire the most never refer to it by either name, usually just talking about
"my music" or "the music" or "our music".
>If I were to compose or lay down some beats, what is the musical
>difference?
How you do it, why you do it and whether you should have done it in the
first place.
elleinad
On Wed, 24 Jun 1998 02:39:10 -0700, Tekno...@usa.net wrote:
>Can someone give me a clear definition of the difference between Jungle
>and
>Drum'n'Bass??
>
>If I were to compose or lay down some beats, what is the musical
>difference?
>thanx
>
To me, Jungle is an older style, fused with a lot of reggae influence.
Check out some stuff by DJ Hype or old Roni Size.
Drum and Bass is exactly as it sounds, cool breaks, some jazz samples
thrown in for background.
Oktal
>On Wed, 24 Jun 1998 02:39:10 -0700, Tekno...@usa.net wrote:
>
>>Can someone give me a clear definition of the difference between Jungle
>>and
>>Drum'n'Bass??
elleinad wrote in message <35910422....@news.sprint.ca>...
>To me, Jungle is an older style, fused with a lot of reggae influence.
>Check out some stuff by DJ Hype or old Roni Size.
How would you catagorize tracks like Bambaata? It's not old, come to think
of it there's very little reggae influence. Actually I never really thought
about it before but there are numerous examples of tracks that can be
explicitly defined as jungle which have seemingly no reggae influence.
>Drum and Bass is exactly as it sounds, cool breaks, some jazz samples
thrown in for background.
The breaks on Dillinja's Acid Track aren't really all that "cool" and I
don't remember any jazz samplez. I don't really think anyone gives a half
decent reply to these posts, this must mean the classification isn't as
simple as people (myself included) first think.
Peace and double happiness
elleinad
Oktal, please tell me that this won't become a battle of wits. He
asked for the difference, not a dissection of the genre.
Lighten up a little, will you?
peace.
Oktal
elleinad wrote in message <359224c3...@news.sprint.ca>...
>Oktal, please tell me that this won't become a battle of wits.
Why, what do you wish to make of it? It's a call to make better definition
so people will understand the concept more clearly. "Wits" don't really
enter into it.
> He asked for the difference, not a dissection of the genre.
Which genre? Definition and identity are something everyone requires, right
from the point of first awareness people question what it is they are - this
is the same. I gave him the difference, but point out the weaknesses in
these descriptions - by realising these faults better answers can be given.
Opinion is great up until it becomes taken as fact, if the opinion was wrong
it starts to lead to people misunderstanding situations - for example the
perception of hardcore breakbeat from the mainstream dance market in 1993 -
if certain people (Doc Scott, Randall, Goldie, etc) didn't give precise
definitions and identify themselves collectively it wouldn't have made it to
94.
"I think hardcore is boring, uninventive and not musically going anywhere -
I don't think I'm saying anything new when I say that breakbeat is
r..." - Pete Tong, Eternity, Oct 93
>Lighten up a little, will you?
Not in my nature I'm afraid, everyone I know that was there and is here
takes it as seriously as I do. Why did the chicken cross the road?
Peace
Dylan Bryne
On Wed, 24 Jun 1998 Tekno...@usa.net wrote:
> Can someone give me a clear definition of the difference between Jungle
> and
> Drum'n'Bass??
>
> If I were to compose or lay down some beats, what is the musical
> difference?
> thanx
"names names names... i dunno i'll still just call a tune "beats" or
"hardcore", i mean when it comes down to it, it's one of two things:
runnin, or not runnin"
-Peshay
that should answer the question:)
cheers,
dylan
_________________
dylan bryne
bryn...@tc.umn.edu
http://www.tc.umn.edu/~bryn0017
Obi Wan Shinobi
Oktal wrote:
> Definition and identity are something everyone requires, right
> from the point of first awareness people question what it is they are - this
> is the same. I gave him the difference, but point out the weaknesses in
> these descriptions - by realising these faults better answers can be given.
> Opinion is great up until it becomes taken as fact, if the opinion was wrong
> it starts to lead to people misunderstanding situations - for example the
> perception of hardcore breakbeat from the mainstream dance market in 1993 -
> if certain people (Doc Scott, Randall, Goldie, etc) didn't give precise
> definitions and identify themselves collectively it wouldn't have made it to
> 94.
This leads me to believe that there is no alt.music.jungle faq.
How about the veterans coming together and answering some of these
questions, and maybe we can have some defintion on how we livin'.
How did jungle/dnb/breakbeat come about?
Define the following terms:
Jungle
Drum N Bass
Breakbeat
Dark Side
Jump Up
Tech Step
Dub plate (plate, vip mix)
Amen beat
Anyone want to add to the list or start defining them?
Obi Wan Shinobi
Oktal
Obi Wan Shinobi wrote in message <359329C9...@interlog.com>...
>This leads me to believe that there is no alt.music.jungle faq.
>How about the veterans coming together and answering some of these
>questions, and maybe we can have some defintion on how we livin'.
You understood my meaning exactly - a lot of these posts from people who are
new to the genre could be cleared up easily with a bit of co-operation
between the people on the group. When people first discover anything the
initial definition is really important so that they don't misunderstand what
they see before them (there are breakbeat tracks at 166bpm with very little
other than "drums and bass" and "jazz samples" which could not be defined as
drum'n'bass (for example some forms of techno that have emerged from
Berlin).
I'm not into pigeon holing shit but a dub's a dub and there are distinct
categories (i.e. jungle, drum'n'bass, etc) which, with a bit of effort and
thought, could be described well enough to give people the initial knowledge
to explore the genre and avoid the pitfalls many people must come up
against.
Not a bad idea really.
Pmc666
Jungle: The earlier form.....er...
Drum N Bass: The Uk version of hip hop
Breakbeat: a breakbeat is an most likey over used or beat that is the basis of
the track.
Dark Side: Self explanitory, dark, heavy d n b, with pulsing bass lines and
hard beats.
Jump Up: More simple drum and bass
Tech Step: technical beats, has a very robotic feel to it
Dub plate (plate, vip mix): a pre-release mix of a record
Amen beat: The most over used breakbeat in all of electronica, mostly drum and
bass. By James brown. But its still great to hear even though its over used
Chameleons at zoos would still be in the jungle if they used there
camoflage......duh.....
Patrick McCunney (k.t.m.w.q.)
Oktal
This is exactly what I was talking about - no disrespect to the author but
it's factually incorrect and gives poor (or no) definitions, people will
believe the first initial concepts - however they were intended, these in
turn are given to other people who will distort the factual content even
more, internet Chinese whispers. I still quite like Obi Wan Shinobi's idea
about a FAQ or something - but some organised persons got to put in the
donkey work and collate the info, any takers? Krispe - u there? You
haven't posted for ages.
>Jungle: The earlier form.....er...
?
>Drum N Bass: The Uk version of hip hop
Heh, whatever!
>Breakbeat: a breakbeat is an most likey over used or beat that is the basis
of
>the track.
For the past couple of year break recognition has just vanished, there are
so many new breaks from different sources that hardly any are overused,
maybe except Amen. Still, it's probably true that it's the basis of the
track.
>Dark Side: Self explanitory, dark, heavy d n b, with pulsing bass lines and
>hard beats.
Many dark side tracks aren't hard, heavy and have no pulsing bass, "High
Rollerz" by Goldie is an excellent example - dark as fuck but doesn't use
force to flip it.
>Jump Up: More simple drum and bass
That would make "Pulp Fiction" a jump up track.
>Tech Step: technical beats, has a very robotic feel to it
...but many, like "Rollers Instinct", are so fluid that the technical sound
is secondary to the very human concept of the groove it creates.
>Dub plate (plate, vip mix): a pre-release mix of a record
Many plates are never cut onto vinyl.
>Amen beat: The most over used breakbeat in all of electronica, mostly drum
and
>bass. By James brown.
Amen Brother was by The Winstons.
Pmc666
see........pretention.......all this fucking newsgroup is. theres no respect
for people who dont know that much about drum and bass and who are actually
helping out the scene by producing (like myself) and other shit like that. At
16, ive only been into drum and bass for about a year and no one has been to
nice to me. I got into this thinking there would be no ageism, sexism,
pretention. But i was wrong. So far ive only met about 4 nice people in this
scene. I just think people should lay off the "new guys" and start welcoming
people. It just makes me sick the way i, and other people i see on this
newsgroup are treated sometimes. Its fucking depressing. So my point is. Start
thinking about your scene and the way you treat people new to it.
Patrick.
William Measor
Oktal wrote:
>
> This is exactly what I was talking about - no disrespect to the author but
> it's factually incorrect and gives poor (or no) definitions, people will
> believe the first initial concepts - however they were intended, these in
> turn are given to other people who will distort the factual content even
> more, internet Chinese whispers. I still quite like Obi Wan Shinobi's idea
> about a FAQ or something - but some organised persons got to put in the
> donkey work and collate the info, any takers? Krispe - u there? You
> haven't posted for ages.
Oktal, since you have pointed out the errors in that guy's definitions,
you are clearly the perfect person to write the FAQ. Donkey work? Just
do one now with the first few terms that pop into your head and go from
there.
BTW, I don't intend to contribute anything to this FAQ since I don't
claim to know anything about fancy terms etc. I just love to listen to
what I love and go out clubbing.
Nice one.
Wil
Decklin Foster
pmc...@aol.com (Pmc666) writes:
> Dub plate (plate, vip mix): a pre-release mix of a record
OK, i have a few Qs on these for the impending (maybe) FAQ. Could you
explain "V.I.P" further? I would like to know what the deal is between
"A Sense of Rage (Sensual VIP Mix)" and "Sensual" on "Timeless".
> Amen beat: The most over used breakbeat in all of electronica, mostly drum and
> bass. By James brown. But its still great to hear even though its over used
I have a rough guess about this, but what is the James Brown track?
I'm thinking Dillinjah "Unexplored Territory" or DJ Dara "RNA."
Possibly Alex Reece/Underworld "Banstyle," but I haven't played this
in a while. These tracks seem to provide examples of the skeleton that
other d'n'b builds on, at least as I hear it. Would this decribe it?
--
please read: http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/
"cry me a bayou/and i'm leaving..." -tricky
Oktal
>OK, i have a few Qs on these for the impending (maybe) FAQ. Could you
>explain "V.I.P" further?
Very Important Press, it's usually more similar to the original plate and
can often be a remix, often by a DJ, which is more dancefloor orientated.
>I have a rough guess about this, but what is the James Brown track?
It isn't a James Brown track, it's "Amen Brother" by The Winstons, I don't
know what tracks you know to point it out to you but if you go to the tru
playas website they have a few breaks available to download and its one of
em.
da...@oktal.demon.co.uk
Oktal
William Measor wrote in message <35983D71...@foobar.co.uk>...
>you are clearly the perfect person to write the FAQ.
I think it would be preferable and less biased if more people got involved
to stick it together - I have a bad habit of assuming some things are
obvious and I only really see whats going on here in the UK - besides that
I've never put a page together in my life!
da...@oktal.demon.co.uk
Obi Wan Shinobi
Pmc666 wrote:
>
> see........pretention.......all this fucking newsgroup is. theres no respect
> for people who dont know that much about drum and bass and who are actually
> helping out the scene by producing (like myself) and other shit like that. At
> 16, ive only been into drum and bass for about a year and no one has been to
> nice to me. I got into this thinking there would be no ageism, sexism,
and what's worse, you're a satanist from AOL :).
> pretention. But i was wrong. So far ive only met about 4 nice people in this
> scene. I just think people should lay off the "new guys" and start welcoming
> people. It just makes me sick the way i, and other people i see on this
> newsgroup are treated sometimes. Its fucking depressing. So my point is. Start
> thinking about your scene and the way you treat people new to it.
>
> Patrick.
Yeah. Well if the newbies thought about the way they treated the elders
it would help too. Last week Oktal told me "Fuck you big time". So,
instead of complaining, I explained my point in a better way and
admitted to the mistakes I made. In the end I found Oktal agreed with
me mostly.
This next part isn't directed at you specifically but all of us newbies
to the newsgroup. I know when you find something new and exciting it's
easy to ask and say stupid things. You don't know where to start. So
wait, read, learn. Don't expect people to be patient with you if you
yourself are not partient. Also, do not expect simply because someone
can share information that they should. There's a big push for
everything to be avaiable on the net. Every answer to every question,
the best fucking library/god ever. But a little knowledge is a
dangerous thing. Not every person who asks questions deserves the
answers on a platter. And often the answers are best found out from
learning, not from being taught. Because of this I worry about (but
won't give up on) the idea I had for a FAQ. I can see it ending up in
some teen beat magazine or conservative newspaper explaining this hot &
cool new music to the sheep who haven't yet bought into the latest thing
yet. It will lend credibility to people who are basically idiots.
Obi Wan Shinobi
Oktal
Obi Wan Shinobi wrote in message <3599E7E3...@interlog.com>...
>Last week Oktal told me "Fuck you big time".
I love people who get up and shake your hand after a beating. Respect.
>So, instead of complaining, I explained my point in a better way and
>admitted to the mistakes I made. In the end I found Oktal agreed >with me
mostly.
Props 2. I answer the reasonable posts, the ones that make demands or make
uneducated statements of fact I flame to stop mistruth about the genre from
growing as it has done in the press many times.
>>What are the parameters which define what drum 'n' bass is?
>As long as someone knows what you mean when you describe it, is
>all that matters.
That's the problem, people don't know what you mean when you describe it,
and there are parameters - otherwise we couldn't possibly give it a
objective name like drum'n'bass.
>It's depth without words.
I used to say something similar to this about what I was feelin' off the old
Reinforced stuff and Doc Scotts tracks, original Metalheadz business like
Ghost and Terminator. I find it ironic that the person asking the question
accidentally gives the best answer.
The explaination OWS gave about newbies was the lick <momentary lift of hat>
and he learnt it because he did it and got a result at the end , it's all
about what you type - I don't know where the fuck most people are comin'
from, I just read the shit! Admittedly producing is a bit of a sore subject
for me 'cos I've had my plates sampled and stolen so I tend to keep shit
tight.
>Never teach the Wu-Tang!
"It's our secret...the special technique of shadowboxing!"
>Because of this I worry about (but
>won't give up on) the idea I had for a FAQ. I can see it ending up in
>some teen beat magazine or conservative newspaper explaining this hot &
>cool new music to the sheep who haven't yet bought into the latest thing
>yet.
We had all that in Britain about four years ago, if you give a true and
clear representation of whats going off it can help limit the damage by the
press - it was only peoples misunderstand of what was happening that fucked
it up, the press needed labels, the genre failed to give any and so the
press made some up! (i.e. Ambient drum'n'bass, fourth generation jungle,
bastardised rave, etc).
>It will lend credibility to people who are basically idiots.
Which is exactly why I think we should do it but put careful consideration
into it instead of just banging together a list of terms as other people
suggested - it would be helpful if newbies could contribute as to what they
need to know, hell, I might even contribute a couple of paragraphs about
basic track construction!! <contort>
Wheel and deal - there are a good range of people on here at the moment,
I'll stick this FAQ thing together if everyone else contributes, people like
Krispe and kOeNs who have been on here for ages would be good people to kick
off <transatlantic nudge>. I really should sort a site of some description
out anyway. It would be handy to just post an address to newbies instead of
regurgitating old posts and it would get people down 2 the real shit.
Walliwagon
>It will lend credibility to people who are basically idiots.
>
Welcome to the Internet.
I learned about the history of ska and jungle through other sources... But the
Internet sure helped! :P You can find an entire rundown of dnb in 5
minutes...
-walley
but that was on mtv news
__________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.cascadia-net.com/benski
Obi Wan Shinobi
Oktal wrote:
>
> Obi Wan Shinobi wrote in message <3599E7E3...@interlog.com>...
>
> >Last week Oktal told me "Fuck you big time".
>
> I love people who get up and shake your hand after a beating. Respect.
>
> >So, instead of complaining, I explained my point in a better way and
> >admitted to the mistakes I made. In the end I found Oktal agreed >with me
> mostly.
>
> Props 2. I answer the reasonable posts, the ones that make demands or make
> uneducated statements of fact I flame to stop mistruth about the genre from
> growing as it has done in the press many times.
>
> Which is exactly why I think we should do it but put careful consideration
> into it instead of just banging together a list of terms as other people
> suggested - it would be helpful if newbies could contribute as to what they
> need to know, hell, I might even contribute a couple of paragraphs about
> basic track construction!! <contort>
Okay as a relative newbie to the scene here are some questions.
Does "amen beat" simply refer to the Amen Brother song beat or is it a
generalized term for the crazy drums of the 94-95 jungle scene?
Is there a name for the 2-step beat that is prevelant in new dnb.
Should we name it if there isn't?
Since there are differences between jungle and drum n bass, is there a
blanket term to cover both similar genres. Death metal and Thrash metal
are different but can be called Metal. I know you're not going to say
electronica. :)
How did jungle dances evolve? You know, where did the irish jig on
acid, crazy legs thing come from?
That's all I can think of for now.
Obi Wan Shinobi
Obi Wan Shinobi
Dylan Bryne
On Fri, 3 Jul 1998, Obi Wan Shinobi wrote:
>
> Does "amen beat" simply refer to the Amen Brother song beat or is it a
> generalized term for the crazy drums of the 94-95 jungle scene?
generally the beat from the original song. if i was going to refer to the
"crazy drums" as you put it, i'd say "those mashed up amens". *shrug*
>
> Is there a name for the 2-step beat that is prevelant in new dnb.
> Should we name it if there isn't?
>
well it's mainly the same pattern (which is named the 2 step) with
different samples, isn't it? so there you are: 2 step is what yuo'd call
it, i'd reckon.
> Since there are differences between jungle and drum n bass, is there a
> blanket term to cover both similar genres. Death metal and Thrash metal
> are different but can be called Metal. I know you're not going to say
> electronica. :)
>
but i'm sure there's a grey area between thrash and death metal and
yuo'd be hard pressed to find more than five people to agree exactly on
where the lines are drawn. terms like "jungle" amd "drum and bass" are
just names IMO. doc scott can talk about how happy hardcore was the past,
jungle was 94 and 95, and drum n bass is the future, but he's one man (tho
a man who rightfully deserves much respect) among many with one take
on it.
> How did jungle dances evolve? You know, where did the irish jig on
> acid, crazy legs thing come from?
>
er, i've not a clue what you're talking about;) i dunno round my parts we
have a couple of dances... the K.A.T.E. (Knees Above The Elbows) which is
just you know, rudeboy skanking style. and then of course, there's just
plain brocking out or whatever you'd liek to call it- getting just wild
to an amazing tune. the people who breakdance or jog to the drums are
off-their-faces-on-methamphetamine ravers who don't know better,
basically.
cheers,
dylan
np: boogie times tribe "the real hardcore"