help on complete organ works CDs
Brian R. Aust
previously beaten to death or is part of some FAQ off in some far corner of
the internet...
I am looking to purchase a CD-set of JSB's complete organ works, and am
wondering which one to get. My family had Marie-Claire Alain's set on LP
that she recorded back in the mid to late 60's or early 70's, but evidently
that is not available on CD, since she has re-recorded the entire catalogue
as of 1994 or so -- 14 CDs i believe.
Also, a man named Bernard Lagace has just released a set on a French label
(Analekta Fleur-de-Lys) just 4 or 5 months ago, but this one is 22 CDs, and
contains additional material that is usually reserved for the harpsichord,
etc.
Does anyone have any solid recommendations here, or know of a book or
website that would compare/contrast the various Complete Organ Works CD
collections? I'm only interested in full complete collections, not
individual CDs of various BWVs.
Thanks muchly!
Brian R. Aust
Harry Shipley
"Brian R. Aust" <au...@linuxmail.org> wrote in message
news:Fa9_7.61501$mp3.27...@typhoon.southeast.rr.com...
I bought many years ago Helmut Walcha's set. Whether or not it is still in
the catalogues, I don't know, but I liked his style of playing. Lionel Rogg
I also enjoyed, but don't know if he ever did a full set.
Harry Shipley
David McKay
was right!
I also like Lambrusco, which I am also told I shouldn't!
--
David McKay
http://members.ozemail.com.au/~musicke
Michael Borgstede
you ever come across a very cheap set, recorded by Wolfgang Stockmeier -
DON幅 BUY IT. It愀 never worth it.
In certain circles Lambrusco has a very bad reputation - but with
appropriate food and in small quantities it can be quite enjoyable. Anyway
better than those heavy read wines that are the epitome of class these days.
(Nice wines - but not with and for everything.)
"David McKay" <music...@ozemail.com.au> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:oAe_7.2875$lt4.1...@ozemail.com.au...
poul...@hotmail.com
Marie Clair Alain has recorded the complete works three times: Once in the
sixties, then once later entirely on Danish organs and then finally in the
nineties. I personally own the nineties edition but used to take the
'Danish' version out of the library for months at a time. I definitely liked
that very much.
When I got the latest edition, I investigated the availability of the
Danish-ed. and it was still on stock (in Denmark). I would say that I
recommend it, because of the very, very beautiful sound, which I hope has
been transferred to CD.
Also In my humble opinion, MCA must have aquired a taste for extensive use
of mixtures etc., which makes the ninties edition sometimes a bit tiresome
to listen to.
Hope this helps you
Regards
Poul
"Brian R. Aust" <au...@linuxmail.org> wrote in message
news:Fa9_7.61501$mp3.27...@typhoon.southeast.rr.com...
Joel Warren Lidz, Ph.D.
Comments on complete and near-complete sets of Bach's organ works:
I studied pipe organ for many years at Penn State, Harvard and
elsewhere. That doesn't mean anyone should agree with my opinion, just
that there's reason not to discount it.
I would rate the large sets as follows, from best to less good:
Chapuis: very spontaneous, revealing a love of playing. Great
instrument and recording for 1968. Recently rereleased.
Rubsam on Philips: Infinitely better than his later ponderous Naxos.
A bit more staid than Chapuis. All pieces played on the same Metzler
organ. His technique is better than Alain's. Here's what the
Pipedreams web page says about it:
"Wolfgang Rubsam (Philips 438 170-2; 16-disc box, including Art of the
Fugue) offers arguably the finest recording of Bach's music ever made,
featuring an exceptional pair of Metzler instruments vividly captured
in rich ambience. Interpretations are always cogent, imaginative, and
involved. Rubsam's playing combines the finest aspects of his
teachers, Helmut Walcha (discipline and total integrity) and
Marie-Claire Alain (subtle nuance and rythmic verve). In Rubsam's more
recent Bach cycle (on the budget-priced Naxos label, available
separately) you'll enjoy a greater variety of historic and modern
instruments, but the artist's interpretations are somewhat more
individualistic, even provocative, still arresting if not quite
main-stream. The Naxos discs do have the advantage of low cost and
easy availability, while the big Philips set may be maddeningly hard
to find, though it's sure to please."
Preston on DGG is excellent. The complete set has only recently been
released.
Koopman on Teldec -- I find his use of ornamentation a bit excessive
at times, but the playing is arresting in its originality of
conception and very energetic. Personally, I would not consider this
a first choice as the counterpoint is a bit muddy.
Rogg is not bad, available from Berkshire at a good price, but lacks
Chapuis's spontaneity.
Fagius is also good, but I find listening to lot of Nasard tiring.
Now available cheaply on Brilliant, but Chapuis is a better choice.
Herrick is expensive and nothing really special.
Hurford's first recording is fine but on inauthentic instruments. I
dumped it after acquiring the Rubsam.
Guillou is a great virtuoso, but his Dorian recordings are a joke in
my opinion, like Anthony Newman on acid. He made an earlier recording
which was marvelous, as did Newman when he was a grad student.
Walcha played before much was known of Baroque performance practice.
Blind from childhood, his playing is Teutonically severe. Worth
hearing, though. I think of him as the Landowska of organ.
Of instruments I've played myself, my favorite was the five manual
Walcker at the Great Hall Cathedral of Ulm, Germany. Perhaps the
world's finest instrument is the St. Bavo at Haarlem, Netherlands,
available on numerous CD's. Biggs made a marvelous LP of Mozart on it,
but it is still not on CD.
Joel Warren Lidz, Ph.D.
Department of Philosophy
Bentley College
Waltham, Mass. 02154
http://members.bellatlantic.net/~jlidz/
Charles
news:a1bulp$h6v$1...@reader08.wxs.nl...
> Koopman is at least hardly ever boring - the normal organist愀 disease. If
> you ever come across a very cheap set, recorded by Wolfgang Stockmeier -
> DON幅 BUY IT. It愀 never worth it.
I have three complete sets of Bach's organ works: Peter Hurford, Werner Jacob and
Wolfgang Stockmeier. Of the three, I must say Stockmeier is my favourite - I like
his choice of registration, the superb historic organs, his faithfulness to the
score and his considered tempos. One newsgroup contributor described Stockmeier's
tempos as turgid, but to me virtuosity in church music is inappropriate. This is
certainly no easy-listening performance, but rather one for edification and study.
Charles
Teseo
> I am looking to purchase a CD-set of JSB's complete organ works, and am
> wondering which one to get.
Simon Preston's set for DGG is very beautiful, I strongly recommend it.
T.
Michael Borgstede
1. Stockmeier plays on Kreienbrink organs and the guy still lives in
Osnabruck and builds organs - so on can hardly call them "historic". They
are ok - but really nothing special. (and most of the mixtures are quite
penetrating without the baroque roundness). I can´t really say much about
the set because I usually fall into a deep slumber before the end of the
first track. "Considered" tempos - Charles, please! There´s no articulation
and "faithfulness to the score" could also be described as "just having no
idea about the music". But one can´t argue about taste... If you enjoy it -
fine.
And a statement like "Virtuosity in church music is inappropriate" doesn´t
sound particularly thought through to me.
Michael
"Charles" <Fra...@datacomm.ch> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:a1cpeq$ptqgq$1...@ID-75949.news.dfncis.de...
> "Michael Borgstede" <michael....@planetTAKEAWAY.nl> wrote in message
> news:a1bulp$h6v$1...@reader08.wxs.nl...
> > Koopman is at least hardly ever boring - the normal organist´s disease.
If
> > you ever come across a very cheap set, recorded by Wolfgang Stockmeier -
> > DON´T BUY IT. It´s never worth it.
Tom Hens
Harry Shipley <shi...@dial.pipex.com> wrote...
> I bought many years ago Helmut Walcha's set. Whether or not it is still
> in the catalogues, I don't know, but I liked his style of playing.
> Lionel Rogg I also enjoyed, but don't know if he ever did a full set.
He apparently did. 12 CDs, available on Harmonia Mundi (HMX 290772.83). (I
don't know this set personally, but 12 CDs suggests it's more or less
complete).
Teseo
Michael Borgstede <michael....@planetTAKEAWAY.nl> wrote in message
> There´s no articulation
> and "faithfulness to the score" could also be described as "just having no
> idea about the music".
Stockmeier simply read the score in front of him, IMHO, with no
interpretation at all. Only chorals are bearable.
T.
Ben Crick
Aust" <au...@linuxmail.org> wrote:
>
> I am looking to purchase a CD-set of JSB's complete organ works, and am
> wondering which one to get.
I have recently obtained the Compete Organ Works of JSB on 17 CDs
recorded by Peter Hurford on various authentic baroque organs by
Decca in the 70s and early 80s. Full documentation is included in
the boxed set, in English, French, German and Italian. Specifications
of all the organs used are included.
The set is numbered 444 411-2 to 444 427-2 (17 CDs) by BIEM/Stemra
on the London label. The analogue to digital conversion is excellent
from the original Decca master tapes.
Highly recommended.
Ben
--
Ben Crick <ben....@argonet.co.uk> ZFC Er
Acorn RPC700 RO4.03+Kinetic Card, 126 MB, 4.3 GB HD, x32 CD-ROM, MX56VX
Coming to you from Birchington near Margate in Kent.
* You tell how big a person is by what it takes to discourage him.
Michael Borgstede
> > and "faithfulness to the score" could also be described as "just having
no
> > idea about the music".
>
> Stockmeier simply read the score in front of him, IMHO, with no
> interpretation at all. Only chorals are bearable.
>
> T.
Maybe he sight-read the score in fromt of him. That would explain his tempi.
M.
Teseo
Michael Borgstede <michael....@planetTAKEAWAY.nl> wrote in message
> Maybe he sight-read the score in fromt of him. That would explain his
tempi.
May be, may be.... or simply he taken too seriously what Forkel wrote about
organ music, that it should be slow and solemn. However the chorales are not
bad in that recording. But they are only a part of the entire collection and
there is something better on the market.
T.
Myron Stackpool
>
>In article <Fa9_7.61501$mp3.27...@typhoon.southeast.rr.com>, "Brian R.
>Aust" <au...@linuxmail.org> wrote:
>>
>> I am looking to purchase a CD-set of JSB's complete organ works, and am
>> wondering which one to get.
>
> I have recently obtained the Compete Organ Works of JSB on 17 CDs
> recorded by Peter Hurford on various authentic baroque organs by
> Decca in the 70s and early 80s. Full documentation is included in
> the boxed set, in English, French, German and Italian. Specifications
> of all the organs used are included.
I've heard rumors that Hurford recorded the complete organ works of JSB twice.
Is this true? The one I have was recorded on *modern* instruments during the
70's and 80's on 25 LPs. I believe it was transferred to CD, bundled with the
Neumeister Chorales not yet discovered when the survey was made. Even if I don't
particularly care for some of the instruments used, his interpretations can
often be understated and straighforward (I mean this in a resoundingly positive
sense, the whole set maintains a consistent level of excellence throughout, and
it is something I would not want to be without.
Since the original poster was interested in complete full recording, Hurford's
is about as complete a recording that has been made (one unfortunate omission is
the replacement of "An Wasserflussen Babylon" with its more ponderous
double-pedal variant, BWV 653b). Walcha, Rogg, and Jacob are all good except
they are far from complete (Jacob is more generous with the less well known
works).
> The set is numbered 444 411-2 to 444 427-2 (17 CDs) by BIEM/Stemra
> on the London label. The analogue to digital conversion is excellent
> from the original Decca master tapes.
>
> Highly recommended.
>
> Ben
>
>--
>Ben Crick <ben....@argonet.co.uk> ZFC Er
>Acorn RPC700 RO4.03+Kinetic Card, 126 MB, 4.3 GB HD, x32 CD-ROM, MX56VX
>Coming to you from Birchington near Margate in Kent.
>
>* You tell how big a person is by what it takes to discourage him.
>
The Head of the family, so to speak.
Charles
>
> I've heard rumors that Hurford recorded the complete organ works of JSB twice.
> Is this true?
Yes, Hurford had an unusual joint contract with the BBC and a record company.
With this contract he toured the world playing on various famous organs and at
each stop made recordings for both the BBC and the record company. At each organ,
he always played different pieces for the BBC and the record company, trying to
recreate the feeling of a live performance for the BBC. The performances for the
BBC were broadcast each week with an accompanying commentary by Hurford and formed
a complete cycle of Bach's organ works. I made a point of following the BBC
broadcasts, which occurred before the record version became available. Years
later I purchased the record version on CD.
Charles
Ben Crick
<nos...@newsranger.com> wrote:
> I've heard rumors that Hurford recorded the complete organ works of JSB
> twice. Is this true? The one I have was recorded on *modern* instruments
> during the 70's and 80's on 25 LPs.
Yes, true. In the mid 70s, Hurford was approached by Decca and by
the BBC to record the Organ Works of JSB. He had already agreed to
do it for Decca, when the BBC approached him. The BBC wanted to
broadcast the whole series in weekly instalments on BBC Radio 3,
which it did. I recorded many of these broadcasts. For copyright
reasons, Decca would not allow their LPs to be broadcast; hence the
double assignment.
Now in 1990 (?), the Decca set was digitalised without loss of
quality from the original master tapes and reissued on 17 CDs.
> Since the original poster was interested in complete full recording,
> Hurford's is about as complete a recording that has been made (one
> unfortunate omission is the replacement of "An Wasserflussen Babylon"
> with its more ponderous double-pedal variant, BWV 653b). Walcha,
> Rogg, and Jacob are all good except they are far from complete
> (Jacob is more generous with the less well known works).
I hadn't noticed that An Wasserflüssen Babylon BWV 653 was omitted
from the "Eighteen"! Should I ask for my money back? I don't find
BWV 653b "ponderous"; Hurford's account of it is smoothly flowing
on CD11 track 7. 653b is in Novello's Book XVIII page 13. I've tried
to learn it, but haven't persevered enough yet!
Hurford certainly gives us all the works (with the exception of 635).
He even includes Pedal Exercitium BWV 598 which isn't in my Novello
Edition at all; and the unfinished P&F in g minor BWV 535a, which
gently fades out as the MS runs out. It's very similar to 535, in
Novello Book VIII pp 120ff. Spitta ascribes it to the early Weimar
years c. 1710. Perhaps Bach felt he could do better, and revised it
much later on, but never finished it. Hurford also includes both
versions of BWV 545 in C, and 545b in Bb which incorporates part of
BWV 1029 to make it longer.
I like Hurford's choice of tempi and dynamics; but deprecate his
sometimes fussy undocumented ornaments in especially the Fantasia
in c minor BWV 562, where he turns inverted mordents into long
drawn out apoggiaturas. He also inserts extra "twiddles" into
the Prelude in f minor BWV 534. I suppose these stand out, because
I learnt these pieces many years ago and know them very well. He
starts the Passacaglia in c BWV 582 on full Great; whereas I start
it on a small diapason on Swell or Choir and build up gradually
from there.
Regards,
Ben
--
Ben Crick <ben....@argonet.co.uk> ZFC Er
Acorn RPC700 RO4.03+Kinetic Card, 126 MB, 4.3 GB HD, x32 CD-ROM, MX56VX
Coming to you from Birchington near Margate in Kent.
* When God ordains, He sustains.
Ben Crick
<Fra...@datacomm.ch> wrote:
> The performances for the BBC were broadcast each week with an
> accompanying commentary by Hurford and formed a complete cycle
> of Bach's organ works. I made a point of following the BBC
> broadcasts, which occurred before the record version became
> available. Years later I purchased the record version on CD.
The broadcasts I heard and taped were in 1981-82. Hurford's Decca
recordings were made in 1974, 75, 77-81, and 86 according to the
sleeve notes.
Ben
--
Ben Crick <ben....@argonet.co.uk> ZFC Er
Acorn RPC700 RO4.03+Kinetic Card, 126 MB, 4.3 GB HD, x32 CD-ROM, MX56VX
Coming to you from Birchington near Margate in Kent.
* He who kneels before God can stand before anyone.
Myron Stackpool
>
>In article <Gnk%7.11837$cD4....@www.newsranger.com>, Myron Stackpool
><nos...@newsranger.com> wrote:
>> I've heard rumors that Hurford recorded the complete organ works of JSB
>> twice. Is this true? The one I have was recorded on *modern* instruments
>> during the 70's and 80's on 25 LPs.
>
> Yes, true. In the mid 70s, Hurford was approached by Decca and by
> the BBC to record the Organ Works of JSB. He had already agreed to
> do it for Decca, when the BBC approached him. The BBC wanted to
> broadcast the whole series in weekly instalments on BBC Radio 3,
> which it did. I recorded many of these broadcasts. For copyright
> reasons, Decca would not allow their LPs to be broadcast; hence the
> double assignment.
>
> Now in 1990 (?), the Decca set was digitalised without loss of
> quality from the original master tapes and reissued on 17 CDs.
So the BBC performances have never been released on CDs?
>> Since the original poster was interested in complete full recording,
>> Hurford's is about as complete a recording that has been made (one
>> unfortunate omission is the replacement of "An Wasserflussen Babylon"
>> with its more ponderous double-pedal variant, BWV 653b). Walcha,
>> Rogg, and Jacob are all good except they are far from complete
>> (Jacob is more generous with the less well known works).
>
> I hadn't noticed that An Wasserflüssen Babylon BWV 653 was omitted
> from the "Eighteen"! Should I ask for my money back? I don't find
> BWV 653b "ponderous";
That is in a relative sense, like molten lead is cooler than molten copper: in
other words, my inability to express myself clearly in my native language. All
the recordings of 653 and 653b I'm familiar with are mellow. Anyway on vol. 7 of
the LP cycle, BWV 653 is simply substituted by 653b in the "Eighteen." I'm not
sure if our recrodings are identical, my recording was made at All Souls
Unitarian Church in Washington D.C.
> Hurford's account of it is smoothly flowing
> on CD11 track 7. 653b is in Novello's Book XVIII page 13. I've tried
> to learn it, but haven't persevered enough yet!
>
> Hurford certainly gives us all the works (with the exception of 635).
Also BWV 573 a fragment of a delightful fantasia in C, most fortunately not
overlooked in Chapuis and Jacobs in their respective "complete" recordings. Also
missing are chorales BWV 753, 764, 749, 750, & 756. IIRC one of the excluded is
"Jesu meine Freude" recorded by E. Power Biggs on his "Bach Organ Favorites"
series, but I don't have the LP handy. Also he makes some cuts in the variations
BWV 771.
Overall Hurford is about as comprehensive as one could reasonably ask for. There
are dozens of alternative versions, fragments, & attributions that have never
been recorded. But I'm a satisfied customer :)
> He even includes Pedal Exercitium BWV 598 which isn't in my Novello
> Edition at all; and the unfinished P&F in g minor BWV 535a, which
> gently fades out as the MS runs out. It's very similar to 535, in
> Novello Book VIII pp 120ff. Spitta ascribes it to the early Weimar
> years c. 1710. Perhaps Bach felt he could do better, and revised it
> much later on, but never finished it. Hurford also includes both
> versions of BWV 545 in C, and 545b in Bb which incorporates part of
> BWV 1029 to make it longer.
>
> I like Hurford's choice of tempi and dynamics; but deprecate his
> sometimes fussy undocumented ornaments in especially the Fantasia
> in c minor BWV 562, where he turns inverted mordents into long
> drawn out apoggiaturas. He also inserts extra "twiddles" into
> the Prelude in f minor BWV 534. I suppose these stand out, because
> I learnt these pieces many years ago and know them very well.
> He
> starts the Passacaglia in c BWV 582 on full Great; whereas I start
> it on a small diapason on Swell or Choir and build up gradually
> from there.
This is one instance where I disagree with Hurford.
> Regards,
> Ben
>
>--
>Ben Crick <ben....@argonet.co.uk> ZFC Er
>Acorn RPC700 RO4.03+Kinetic Card, 126 MB, 4.3 GB HD, x32 CD-ROM, MX56VX
>Coming to you from Birchington near Margate in Kent.
>
>* When God ordains, He sustains.
>
The Head of the family, so to speak.
Ben Crick
<nos...@newsranger.com> wrote:
> > I hadn't noticed that An Wasserflüssen Babylon BWV 653 was omitted
> > from the "Eighteen"! Should I ask for my money back? I don't find
> > BWV 653b "ponderous";
>
> That is in a relative sense, like molten lead is cooler than molten
> copper: in other words, my inability to express myself clearly in my
> native language. All the recordings of 653 and 653b I'm familiar
> with are mellow. Anyway on vol. 7 of the LP cycle, BWV 653 is simply
> substituted by 653b in the "Eighteen."
> at All Souls Unitarian Church in Washington D.C.
There is a point about the tune –An Wasserflüssen Babylon•. It is
the same tune as is sung to –Ein Lämmlein geht und trägt die Schuld•
which is a hymn of quiet contentment and gratitude for Christ's
propitiation for our sins. It is the latter mood which pervades
BWV 653/653b. There is nothing of the –Angst• of Psalm 137 here.
A similar situation arises with the choral prelude that Bach
dictated to Altnikol on his deathbed, –Wenn wir in höchsten Nöten
sein•. Bach told Altnikol to title the piece –Vor deinen Thron
tret' ich allhier• (BWV 668). The words of the latter suit the mood
of the choral prelude far more than the words of the former.
Yes, same organ: All Souls Unitarian church, Washington DC.
Ben
--
Ben Crick <ben....@argonet.co.uk> ZFC Er
Acorn RPC700 RO4.03+Kinetic Card, 126 MB, 4.3 GB HD, x32 CD-ROM, MX56VX
Coming to you from Birchington near Margate in Kent.
* Worry is the darkroom in which negatives are developed.
Ben Crick
<nos...@newsranger.com> wrote:
> [snippage] IIRC one of the excluded is
> "Jesu meine Freude" recorded by E. Power Biggs on his "Bach Organ
> Favorites" series, but I don't have the LP handy.
The only Jesu meine Freude that I know is the one from the
Orgelbüchlein, BWV 610. I used to have some old 78s of E Power
Biggs, but lost them or broke them years ago! He and Geraint
Jones were pioneers of the neo-baroque HIP of Bach's organ works.
Lady Susi Jeans was another heroine of mine in my young days, and
Fernando Germani. When I was about 17 I attended a recital on the
Milton Organ in Tewkesbury Abbey given by Germani. He ended with
a magnificent account of the Prelude and 'Wedge' Fugue in e minor,
BWV 548.
BWV 610 needs to be played fairly robustly, as befits the Christmas
Joy. I use a reed for the left hand, and mutations for the right
hand.
Ben
--
Ben Crick <ben....@argonet.co.uk> ZFC Er
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Coming to you from Birchington near Margate in Kent.
* If God is your co-pilot, swap seats.
Ben Crick
<nos...@newsranger.com> wrote:
> > Now in 1990 (?), the Decca set was digitalised without loss of
> > quality from the original master tapes and reissued on 17 CDs.
>
> So the BBC performances have never been released on CDs?
Yes, contractual agreements with Decca prevented the Beeb from
releasing their recordings to the public on LPs.
Ben
--
Ben Crick <ben....@argonet.co.uk> ZFC Er
Acorn RPC700 RO4.03+Kinetic Card, 126 MB, 4.3 GB HD, x32 CD-ROM, MX56VX
Coming to you from Birchington near Margate in Kent.
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Charles
>
> A similar situation arises with the choral prelude that Bach
> sein.. Bach told Altnikol to title the piece -Vor deinen Thron
> tret' ich allhier. (BWV 668). The words of the latter suit the mood
> of the choral prelude far more than the words of the former.
I do believe this story is doubted by modern scholarship, however.
Regards
Charles
Ben Crick
anecdote is not.
Ben
--
Ben Crick <ben....@argonet.co.uk> ZFC Er
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Coming to you from Birchington near Margate in Kent.
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James E Goodzeit
> > [snippage] IIRC one of the excluded is
> > "Jesu meine Freude" recorded by E. Power Biggs on his "Bach Organ
> > Favorites" series, but I don't have the LP handy.
>
> The only Jesu meine Freude that I know is the one from the
> Orgelbüchlein, BWV 610.
There's also BWV 713 and 753--the one recorded by EPB on "Bach Organ
Favorites, Vol. 5"; also reissued as "filler" on the CD "The Four
Great Toccatas and Fugues."
> I used to have some old 78s of E Power
> Biggs, but lost them or broke them years ago!
What a pity! :(
> He and Geraint
> Jones were pioneers of the neo-baroque HIP of Bach's organ works.
> Lady Susi Jeans was another heroine of mine in my young days, and
> Fernando Germani. When I was about 17 I attended a recital on the
> Milton Organ in Tewkesbury Abbey given by Germani. He ended with
> a magnificent account of the Prelude and 'Wedge' Fugue in e minor,
> BWV 548.
>
> BWV 610 needs to be played fairly robustly, as befits the Christmas
> Joy. I use a reed for the left hand, and mutations for the right
> hand.
Oddly BWV 610 doesn't seem to express the mood with its plodding
c-minor largo. It seems to express solemnity rather than joy!
> Ben
Ben Crick
je...@acsu.buffalo.edu (James E Goodzeit) wrote:
> > The only Jesu meine Freude that I know is the one from the
> > Orgelbüchlein, BWV 610.
>
> There's also BWV 713 and 753--the one recorded by EPB on "Bach Organ
> Favorites, Vol. 5"; also reissued as "filler" on the CD "The Four
> Great Toccatas and Fugues."
Thanks! I must look out for them.
>
> Oddly BWV 610 doesn't seem to express the mood with its plodding
> c-minor largo. It seems to express solemnity rather than joy!
Depends how you play it. Hurford manages to make it sound cheerful,
even if slow and in the minor mode.
In the BBC recordings of Hurford's In Dir ist Freude 615 and In Dulci
Jubilo 608 (the canon in the Orgelbüchlein) he uses the Cymbelstern
giving a jangling jingle-bells effect, not heard on the Decca
recordings. I think I prefer it without the Cymbelstern. There isn't
an organ in our neighbourhood that has one, anyway!
Ben
--
Ben Crick <ben....@argonet.co.uk> ZFC Er
Acorn RPC700 RO4.03+Kinetic Card, 126 MB, 4.3 GB HD, x32 CD-ROM, MX56VX
Coming to you from Birchington near Margate in Kent.
* God doesn't want shares in your life; He wants controlling interest.
Richard Loeb
question get the Chapuis. It also has full documentation on each piece
(which the Hurford budget box does not). It makes bach organ music a thrill
to hear.
e
t"Brian R. Aust" <au...@linuxmail.org> wrote in message
news:Fa9_7.61501$mp3.27...@typhoon.southeast.rr.com...
> Cheers, and apologies in advance if my subsequent question has been
> previously beaten to death or is part of some FAQ off in some far corner
of
> the internet...
>
> I am looking to purchase a CD-set of JSB's complete organ works, and am
C. A. PECK
Has anybody an opnion on the Hilliard Ensemble's CD MORIBUR devoted to Bach?
I was rather disappointed. I find they handle Renaissance music (Lassus for
instance) better than Bach.
"Richard Loeb" <loe...@home.com> a écrit dans le message news:
Nf238.7937$Qc6.2...@news1.rdc2.pa.home.com...
Charles
news:a2ka0m$cbu$1...@news2.isdnet.net...
> What's happening to this NG now? I've never seen so few messages!
>
> Has anybody an opnion on the Hilliard Ensemble's CD MORIBUR devoted to
Bach?
>
> I was rather disappointed. I find they handle Renaissance music (Lassus
for
> instance) better than Bach.
As it happens I was at a Hilliard Ensemble concert a few days ago. I also
heard them live last year performing Guillaume de Machaut's "La Messe de
Notre Dame" and a few years ago singing Lassus and Palestrina. They hardly
ever sing Baroque music and in 'Morimur' they abandoned their usual style
and copied the purported 'HIP' doctrines pioneered by Nikolaus Harnoncourt.
Unfortunately, this manner of chorale performance is not supported by the
historical evidence and leads to poor musical results.
Regards
Charles
Teseo
C. A. PECK <peck...@MicroNet.fr> wrote in message
> Has anybody an opnion on the Hilliard Ensemble's CD MORIBUR devoted to
Bach?
Morimur, you mean ? I find it marvellous but, of course, much on the
Renaissance side, which is questionable in performing Bach's music.
T.
Sybrand Bakker
wrote:
CAN YOU PLEASE STOP YOUR INCORRECT AND SLANDEROUS COMMENTS
ABOUT 'HIP' DOCTRINES AND 'HISTORICAL EVIDENCE'
YOU CLEARLY DEMONSTRATED YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT HISTORICAL EVIDENCE
IS!!!!
Sybrand Bakker
Sybrand Bakker, Senior Oracle DBA
To reply remove -verwijderdit from my e-mail address
Riccardo
. They hardly
> ever sing Baroque music and in 'Morimur' they abandoned their usual style
> and copied the purported 'HIP' doctrines pioneered by Nikolaus
Harnoncourt.
> Unfortunately, this manner of chorale performance is not supported by the
> historical evidence and leads to poor musical results.
what's the relationship between Harnoncourt, the Hilliard Ensemble and the
morimur cd?
Riccardo
Tom Hens
Riccardo <erre...@inwind.it> wrote...
The relationship between the Hilliard Ensemble and the Morimur CD is that
they're the ones singing on it.
There is no relationship with Harnoncourt, that's just something
CharlesFrancis made up.
Riccardo
obviously I know the Hilliard Ensemble and their "Morimur" cd .
I'm still waiting that Mr.Charles explains the artistical connection between
N.Harnoncourt and the Hilliard Ensemble.
Riccardo.
Sybrand Bakker
wrote:
Isn't that clear enough :
[quote]
and in 'Morimur' they abandoned their usual style
and copied the purported 'HIP' doctrines pioneered by Nikolaus
Harnoncourt.
[unquote]
So according to CharlesFrancis they are using the same 'HIP doctrines'
which only exist in CharlesFrancis imagination.
Evidently there is much more historical evidence for those so-called
'doctrines' than for the unfounded assumption the word 'Clavecymbel'
can imply a fortepiano
But obviously, CharlesFrancis think there is such thing as *the*
historical evidence, which of course basically includes only the
sources he has read and uses as dogma to determine what has to be
called 'poor musical results' and what not.
This is basically the same procedure followed by some totalitarian
20th century leaders: always proof your argument by discrediting your
opponents, always play your opponents instead of the subject.
Regards
Sybrand Bakker
Jsb1441
Igor Kipnis, a Harpsichord Master Who Championed His Instrument, Dead at 71
By ELEANOR BLAU
gor Kipnis, the virtuoso harpsichordist whose busy concert recording career
made him the instrument's most ardent cheerleader, died on Wednesday at his
Connecticut home. He was 71.
He had been suffering from cancer, according to the agency that managed his
career, Marilyn Gilbert Artists Management in Toronto.
The harpsichord "surprises people," Mr. Kipnis told an interviewer in 1986.
"They expect it to be wearing a wig and belonging in somebody's attic. I try to
bring it down from the attic or lead people up to the attic." On that occasion
he took it in his van to Wesleyan University in Middletown, Conn., for a
lunchtime concert in the cafeteria, playing music from the 1500's and onward,
including ragtime and pop.
For several years in the 1960's, Mr. Kipnis, son of the Metropolitan Opera bass
Alexander Kipnis, was the host of "The Age of Baroque" on WQXR radio in New
York. "It's one of the most rewarding things I've ever done, trying to convince
people who aren't into the harpsichord that it is worthwhile," he said.
Proficient, too, on clavichord and fortepiano, he also performed in later years
on the modern piano. In 1995 he formed a duo with Karen Kushner, a New York
pianist, playing four-hand music in concerts and school programs.
Igor Kipnis was born on Sept. 27, 1930, in Berlin. His father was singing with
the Berlin State Opera at the time, and before turning 8 Mr. Kipnis had
traveled widely with his parents. Although a Jew, Alexander Kipnis remained a
favored performer in Germany during the rise of Naziism. Using a ruse —
temporarily straining his voice — he canceled his opera contract and moved to
Vienna. When the Nazis took over there, the family was touring in Australia.
They settled in the United States just before the start of World War II, and
the elder Kipnis joined the Met.
"The family phonograph loomed large in my early years," Igor Kipnis said,
"partly because of my father's many 78 r.p.m. discs of lieder and operatic
arias." In a 1977 article in Stereo Review, for which he was a critic and
contributing editor, Mr. Kipnis recalled growing up in Westport, Conn., taking
piano lessons without thoughts of playing professionally and "madly" collecting
records.
One day, perusing a collection he had bought of Bach's "Well-Tempered Clavier"
played by Edwin Fischer, he was annoyed to find that it included as a filler
the second English Suite played not on the piano but on the harpsichord by
Wanda Landowska. "As it turned out," he wrote, "this apparent rip-off soon
fascinated me more than any of the many Bach piano discs I had, and I longed to
try a harpsichord in the flesh sometime."
He got that chance at Harvard, where he majored not in music but in social
relations. "I was thoroughly smitten," he said. "Nothing happened, however,
until 1957, when my parents imported a small instrument for me to fool around
with after work." At the time he was in charge of covers and liner notes at
Westminster Records.
Fooling around meant, for example, finding subtle ways to suggest getting
louder and softer, which the instrument cannot do, and suggesting a singing
line, though the harpsichord's tones are brief and abrupt. The harpsichord,
whose strings are plucked when the keys are pressed, required a different touch
than the piano, whose strings are struck.
Mr. Kipnis taught himself, with a little help. The harpsichordist Fernando
Valenti, for instance, exchanged lessons for dinner made by Mr. Kipnis's wife,
Judith Robison. (They later divorced.) Mr. Kipnis is survived by his son,
Jeremy, of Connecticut.
Mr. Kipnis often said that it was his father who most influenced his musical
development. While accompanying his father's students on the piano he learned a
vast repertory and absorbed his father's teaching, not realizing until many
years later how formative the experience had been. Among other things, he said,
he learned to think in terms of a vocal line. Also, "he advised me to talk to
audiences in my concerts," he said, "just as he had done so often in his
American tours."
After a debut in 1959, Mr. Kipnis played freelance harpsichord continuo with
various groups, wrote for The New York Herald Tribune and joined Stereo Review
as a record critic — a role he continued for various publications throughout
his performing career.
His own records were successful, and in 1964 he got a CBS recording contract,
and another contract eight years later from Angel. By 2000 he had more than 80
albums to his credit.
In 1971 he left New York for Fairfield County, Conn., taught full time at
Fairfield University, then cut back as his concert touring expanded. He
performed as a harpsichord soloist with American orchestras including the New
York Philharmonic, Chicago, Pittsburgh and National Symphonies, and abroad with
orchestras including the Munich Philharmonic, winning critical praise.
In 1981 Peter G. Davis of The New York Times savored two Kipnis recordings of
Bach clavier concertos as "scrupulously stylish, rhythmically buoyant and
tastefully ornamented." Bernard Holland of The Times, praising an evening of
fortepiano music at the Kaye Playhouse in 1993, wrote, "His playing was
civility itself, the kind that makes grammar not just correct but expressive
and that values clarity and order above all in matters of rhythm and meter."
He played not only the traditional harpsichord music from the 16th to 18th
centuries, but also contemporary music and jazz, including pieces written for
him by composers like Ned Rorem, Eric Salzman, Richard Rodney Bennett and
Leopold Godowsky. He sampled this range in concerts he called "The Light and
Lively Harpsichord," as well as in informal college recitals.
"I was your basic cocktail harpsichordist," he said in 1993, recalling his
performances in campus cafeterias. "I used amplification, with a running
commentary on the music. But you can take Muhammad to the mountain, and the
mountain still may not come to the concert."
His choice of locations might have had something to do with that. Churches, he
said, offered the best acoustics for pre-19th-century music. "All too often
what happens is that you have a group of period-instrument players in a high
school auditorium," Mr. Kipnis said. "That's the kiss of death because it makes
the instruments sound very unappealing and thin." Nor do early instruments
blend happily with modern ones. "The music usually comes out heavy, sounding a
bit like not-well- cooked potato pancakes," he said.
In Connecticut, Mr. Kipnis was president and artistic director of the Friends
of Music of Fairfield County, a chamber music series, for five years; an
artistic director of the Connecticut Early Music Festival for 13 years; and a
faculty member at Fairfield University for seven years. He also taught at
Tanglewood, as head of its Baroque department, and frequently presented master
classes and lectures at Harvard, the Peabody Institute, the Mannes College of
Music and other institutions.
Mr. Kipnis owned three harpsichords, two clavichords, a 1793 fortepiano and a
1926 Steinway piano. One of those harpsichords, a French-style instrument, had
more miles on it than most cars, he said, because he took it on tour in a van.
Another, a German type, Chinese red and 10 feet long, also went on tour, and
was used for his debut with the New York Philharmonic.
He also regarded himself as a frustrated portrait photographer and would bring
his camera to rehearsals. "If I am playing a Bach concert where the hands are
busy all the time, I can't get any kind of shot," he said. "But, say, if I'm
playing the Poulenc Harpsichord Concerto, then there are places where I have
rests. At those points, I can grab the camera, get off a fast shot of the
conductor in motion and be able to come back in time for my entrance. I usually
take these pictures from the harpsichord bench. This amuses the orchestra to no
end."
Carl Benson
>
> January 25, 2002
>
> Igor Kipnis, a Harpsichord Master Who Championed His Instrument, Dead at 71
Igor Kipnis was one of my lifetime musical inspirations.
I play the harpsichord today in part because I heard him
play, and wanted to play "like that". I shall miss him.
--Carl Benson
Charles
news:scb35u00gcqp4tk5h...@4ax.com...
There isn't an assumption that 'Clavecymbel' can imply fortepiano.
There is, however, an assumption that "a new Clavicymbel, such as had
not been heard here before" can imply a fortepiano. Wolff apparently
accepts this possibilty, for he feels the need to refute it using purely
acoustical arguments. Moreover, Stauffer also accepts the possibility.
But, Tom Hens and yourself have taken the dogmatic position that "a new
Clavicymbel, such as had not been heard here before" cannot possibly
under any circumstances be taken to indicate a fortepiano. As noted
previously, the burden of proof always lies with the ones asserting a
dogma.
With regard to Harnoncourt's chorale performance practice, I'm surprised
you take issue with me regarding his lack of historical justification.
For as you yourself wrote in this group "I don't believe any
congregation, whether at that time, or nowadays has been singing or is
singing these chorales in the same fashion."
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=9867h4%24gvgg%241%40ID-62141.news.d
fncis.de
So it appears we are in complete agreement on this point.
Regards
Charles
Sybrand Bakker
wrote:
As usual you take one sentence out of context and take that as a
pars-pro-toto.
Examples of this method abound in this newsgroup, I'm not going to try
to hit you with previous posts, as you indulge in.
Time to question who educated you, who learned you to filter out
anything what doesn't suit you, and time to advise you to get
deprogrammed. You have a sick mind and you know it.
Quoting from a recent post of Zachary Uram, and I fully agree with his
words
Discussing this with you is impossible since
discussion assumes flexibility and at least intellectual honesty
on both ends. Goodbye.
Final words: You've accomplished your goal.
As you won't stop with your iditioc posts and your hostile comments,
I will shortly unsubscribe from this newsgroup
Sybrand Bakker
Riccardo
Charles
news:a2u8ds$13slcn$1...@ID-80584.news.dfncis.de...
Harnoncourt's artistic influence can be discerned at the end of the
musical phrases where the final syllable is shortened to allow breathing
to take place while maintaining a constant tempo. Only recently, has
Harnoncourt abandoned this practice in favour of a rhetorical-driven
approach.
Regards
Charles
Pan
<pos...@sybrandb.demon.nl> wrote:
[snip]
>Final words: You've accomplished your goal.
>As you won't stop with your iditioc posts and your hostile comments,
>I will shortly unsubscribe from this newsgroup
Why is that, Sybrand? Is it better for you to unsubscribe than to
merely ignore those comments that disturb you? For what it's worth,
think it would certainly be better for the newsgroup if you decided to
remain here.
Michael
To reply by email, please take out the TRASH (so to speak). Personal messages only, please!
christophe chazot
"Pan" <panNO...@musician.org> a écrit dans le message news:
3c536749...@news.erols.com...
> Why is that, Sybrand?
> For what it's worth,
> think it would certainly be better for the newsgroup if you decided to
> remain here.
Indeed. It is.
Tom Hens
Charles <Fra...@datacomm.ch> wrote...
In other words, you're saying Harnoncourt has recently abandoned
Harnoncourt's artistic influence.
Tom (CharlesFrancis, I don't think you realise just how much amusement
you're providing for the rest of the world)
Tom Hens
Sybrand Bakker <pos...@sybrandb.demon.nl> wrote...
<snip>
> Discussing this with you is impossible since
> discussion assumes flexibility and at least intellectual honesty
> on both ends. Goodbye.
>
> Final words: You've accomplished your goal.
> As you won't stop with your iditioc posts and your hostile comments,
> I will shortly unsubscribe from this newsgroup
Why? Why do you want to give CharlesFrancis the power to decide who posts
in this newsgroup? One of the defining characteristics of an unmoderated
Usenet newsgroup is that any idiot can post whatever crap he likes. That is
both the biggest weakness and the biggest strength of Usenet -- its total
immunity to censorship. It doesn't mean one should let the idiots, or in
this case one single idiot, rule the place. Unlike CharlesFrancis, you're
actually a musicologist. Don't you think you have at least as much right to
post here as he does? Nobody's forcing you to read what he posts, or to try
and rebut the things he posts, if you don't want to. That's why killfiles
exist.