If Bach lived today ...
Safir
Do you agree ?
Simon Crouch
"Safir" <axica...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:YD17a.436$zk4...@news.cpqcorp.net...
> he would be a Jazzman.
>
> Do you agree ?
No.
all the best,
Simon.
beppe005
What amazes me is that JSB was on the turning point of an age. Apart from
his taste and musical inspiration he used the "tools" (harmony,
counterpoint...) from his age, but to an extent nobody did before him.
Now probably he would be interested in ethinc music as well, would "invent"
some other instrument... but probably he would be faithfull to "classical"
conterpoint and harmony.
I too asked myself many times what would create JSB's musical genius with a
different background from the baroque one.
If I may add one more thing, jazzmen are trained to improvise, that's true,
but there are many classical musicians who can improvise classical music as
well. It is just rare that they show it off.
"Safir" <axica...@yahoo.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:YD17a.436$zk4...@news.cpqcorp.net...
Safir
true,
> but there are many classical musicians who can improvise classical music
as
> well. It is just rare that they show it off.
Bach was a a very good improviser i think.
Interesting concept : improvise classical music. Is it improvised if it is
already classical ?
Pete Blue
>
> Do you agree ?
No, probably not if he were still a devout Lutheran.
Lutherans of my acquaintance are much too uptight. They would for
sure be scandalized to learn the origin of the word "jazz" and the
kind of establishment where jazz was first played!
Pete Blue
Morpheus, Inc.
I don't want to underestimate the importance of JSB's faith (and please
let us not get into the faith argument again), but one of the main
reasons that JS was such a profound admitter of his faith had also to do
with the survival circumstances of the time he lived in.
Let's not forget that unless one had the "official" protection of the
whatever church was in local effect at the time, one would hardly be
able to make it financially into middle/upper class.
Bach probably was a quite faithful man, but he was also smart. Very
smart and he had all those children to feed.
If I had to feed 21 children at one time or another _today_, I would
gladly declare myself anything you'd want me to, in order to alleviate
my financial problems and this would really have no relevance to
whatever it was that I really believe.
[repeat]
> > he would be a Jazzman.
[/repeat]
If Bach was alive today, he would probably be totally disappointed and
discouraged by our society's state of affairs.
> Pete Blue
--
Ioannis
http://users.forthnet.gr/ath/jgal/
__________________________________
What is Mind? No Matter.
What is Matter? Never Mind.
davyd
If it's written down, it's no longer improvised, it's composed. IMHO, both
written and unwritten music can be of any style.
John E. Prussing
>he would be a Jazzman.
>Do you agree ?
What a relief! I thought you would ask "What would Bach drive?"
Regards to all.
--
John E. Prussing
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Department of Aeronautical & Astronautical Engineering
http://www.uiuc.edu/~prussing
beppe005
"Morpheus, Inc." <morp...@olympus.mons> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:3E5D51...@olympus.mons...
beppe005
You improvise in a different harmonic / rhythmic frame.
And Bach used to improvise preludes and fugues... as well as other genders
as well.
"Safir" <axica...@yahoo.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:fO57a.463$VE4...@news.cpqcorp.net...
Safir
"John E. Prussing" <prus...@uiuc.edu> wrote in message
news:P7d7a.3856$o7.4...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu...
> In <YD17a.436$zk4...@news.cpqcorp.net> "Safir" <axica...@yahoo.com>
writes:
>
> >he would be a Jazzman.
>
> >Do you agree ?
>
> What a relief! I thought you would ask "What would Bach drive?"
>
Another interesting question :-)
Probably a Mercedes Van to travel with the keyboards and saxophones.
Sybrand Bakker
wrote:
>But didn't he wrote a catholic mass?
No, he didn't.
The Lutherans never abolished the ordinary in Latin, and many parts of
the ordinary were regularly sung in Latin during Bach's tenure.
And of course: 'catholic' just means 'general'
Sybrand Bakker
Max Schmeder
> >
> > Do you agree ?
>
> No, probably not if he were still a devout Lutheran.
>
> Lutherans of my acquaintance are much too uptight. They would for
> sure be scandalized to learn the origin of the word "jazz" and the
> kind of establishment where jazz was first played!
>
> Pete Blue
the passacaglia and chaconne were originally "bump & grind" dances...
Max
> >
>
> Another interesting question :-)
>
> Probably a Mercedes Van to travel with the keyboards and saxophones.
I was thinking it would have to be a BWV.. uh err.. I mean BMW
Charles
news:msss5vcjveo4g4jst...@4ax.com...
: On Thu, 27 Feb 2003 10:02:03 GMT, "beppe005" <bepp...@virgilio.it>
Sybrand's opinion does not reflect a consensus view, however. Some eminent Bach
scholars have argued that Bach did indeed write an explicitly Roman mass.
Regards
Charles
Stradivari1688
>Sybrand's opinion does not reflect a consensus view, however. Some eminent
>Bach
>scholars have argued that Bach did indeed write an explicitly Roman mass.
Yes, but the Lutheran liturgy is, with some relatively minor (major from a
theological standpoint) revisions, identical to the Latin Catholic Mass.
For example, the Russian Lutheran service is outwardly identical to the Russian
Orthodox liturgy, with the exception that some Eucharistic prayers, litanies
for the departed, and saints' petitions are omitted.
Morpheus, Inc.
Exactly. Unbeknownst to most historians, the original Bach catalogs were
compiled as Bavaria Motor Werke, and it is well known that BMW's most
famous commercial, ("The Absolute Driving Machine") ties well with the
ads Johann Sebastian used to advertise his abilities: "The Absolute
Organ Playing Machine".
Safir
> Exactly. Unbeknownst to most historians, the original Bach catalogs were
> compiled as Bavaria Motor Werke, and it is well known that BMW's most
> famous commercial, ("The Absolute Driving Machine") ties well with the
> ads Johann Sebastian used to advertise his abilities: "The Absolute
> Organ Playing Machine".
> --
> Ioannis
Yes but we had a TV ad in France for Mercedes S and the music was a cello
partita.
By the way anybody knows Jacques Loussier ?
I like some of his Jazzed Bach.
Sybrand Bakker
wrote:
>Sybrand's opinion does not reflect a consensus view, however. Some eminent Bach
>scholars have argued that Bach did indeed write an explicitly Roman mass.
I guess my opinion doesn't reflect YOUR consensus view.
Many eminent scholars like John Butt and Guenther Stoller have argued
that Bach DIDN'T write a Roman Catholic Mass.
Obviously this are scholars you *WILFULLY* choose to ignore, because
you as a *non-believer* are an expert in the field of the Lutheran
Liturgy.
One day there will be Justice
Sybrand Bakker, Senior Oracle DBA
To reply remove -verwijderdit from my e-mail address
harmonix
> he would be a Jazzman.
>
> Do you agree ?
>
>
he would love the thrash metal/death metal scene -- innovative music.
--
-*harmonix*-
7:40pm up 23 min, 3 users, load average: 0.03, 0.24, 0.25
Pete Blue
> By the way anybody knows Jacques Loussier ?
> I like some of his Jazzed Bach.
Pretty good jazz (of the cocktail variety), but t'ain't Bach.
Pete Blue
Ben Crick
<fra...@datacomm.ch> wrote:
> Sybrand's opinion does not reflect a consensus view, however. Some
> eminent Bach scholars have argued that Bach did indeed write an
> explicitly Roman mass.
The *liturgical* consensus is that the congregational parts of the
Tridentine Mass are non-controversial and do not contain Romanist
doctrines that were challenged by the Reformers. Therefore, the
traditional Latin text was not altered in any way by the Lutheran
church, nor for that matter by the Anglican church. The Kyries,
the Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, Benedictus and Angus Dei were unaltered
by the Reformers, except that they were translated into German
(and English by Thomas Cranmer).
Bach's magnum opus, the /Mass in B minor,/ was sung both in the
Lutheran and the Roman Catholic churches until Pope Pius X in
his /Motu Proprio/ of 25th April 1904 (or was it 1903?) effectively
banned it from use in RC churches. He said that each section of
the Mass must be sung as one musical number, not as several, as
in Bach's B minor /Credo/ for example. Beethoven's /Mass in D/
conforms to these instructions, but Bach's /Mass in B minor/ does
not.
Ben
--
Ben Crick <ben....@argonet.co.uk> ZFC Tm
Acorn RPC700 RO4.03+Kinetic Card, 126 MB, 4.3 GB HD, x32 CD-ROM, MX56VX
Coming to you from Birchington near Margate in East Kent.
* Nothing ruins the truth like stretching it.
Ken Moore
>Sybrand's opinion does not reflect a consensus view, however. Some eminent Bach
>scholars have argued that Bach did indeed write an explicitly Roman mass.
What Sybrand posted is what I have read (in more than one place, IIRC)
as the explanation. Who are these eminent scholars?
--
Ken Moore
K.C....@reading.ac.uk
pg composition student, University of Reading
Charles
news:YoLTrUAv1$X+E...@mooremusic.org.uk...
:
: What Sybrand posted is what I have read (in more than one place, IIRC)
: as the explanation. Who are these eminent scholars?
Georg von Dadelsen, for example, has written that: "The sum total of its sections
represents indeed a complete Roman Catholic Mass". Going on to say "We believe
that he [Bach] quite deliberately intended to offer here a contribution to that
musical genre which was hailed as the most ambitious type of composition from the
days of Dufay, Josquin and Palestrina" noting "a work was created that can yet be
properly appreciated only in connection with the great tradition of the Roman
Catholic mass." Christopher Wolff has similarly concluded that the Mass in its
final form was intended as a "summa" of Bach's work, casting some of his finest
cantata movements into the time-honoured form of the Ordinary, but intended for
posterity, not a specific performance venue.
By contrast, George B. Stauffer has speculated that Bach completed the 1733 Missa
as a complete Ordinary in 1748-49 for use in Dresden, perhaps to be performed in
connection with the dedication of the new (Roman Catholic) Hofkirche. Stauffer has
noted that Bach's Mass is in the tradition of the large-scale Dresden masses of
Zelenka, Hasse and Heinichen, and the Neapolitan masses of Durante, Mancini,
Sarri, etc. Stauffer, indicates that scholars now acknowledge that the mass is
a Roman Catholic, not Lutheran, work. For more information on the current view,
check out Stauffer's book "Bach, the Mass in B Minor : (The Great Catholic Mass)".
Regards
Charles
Charles
news:na.2211634bcc....@argonet.co.uk...
:
: The *liturgical* consensus is that the congregational parts of the
: Tridentine Mass are non-controversial and do not contain Romanist
: doctrines that were challenged by the Reformers. Therefore, the
: traditional Latin text was not altered in any way by the Lutheran
: church, nor for that matter by the Anglican church. The Kyries,
: the Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, Benedictus and Angus Dei were unaltered
: by the Reformers, except that they were translated into German
: (and English by Thomas Cranmer).
:
: Bach's magnum opus, the /Mass in B minor,/ was sung both in the
: Lutheran and the Roman Catholic churches until Pope Pius X in
: his /Motu Proprio/ of 25th April 1904 (or was it 1903?) effectively
: banned it from use in RC churches. He said that each section of
: the Mass must be sung as one musical number, not as several, as
: in Bach's B minor /Credo/ for example. Beethoven's /Mass in D/
: conforms to these instructions, but Bach's /Mass in B minor/ does
: not.
Are you suggesting that the Ordinary was performed in Leipzig at Bach's time? Is
there any proof for this? I'm aware that Bach copied, performed and examined
numerous Catholic masses in the late 1730's and early 1740's including the Missa
sine nomine by Palestrina, the Missa sapientiae by Antonio Lotti, a Mass in F by
Giovanni Battista Bassani, and a Magnificat setting by Antonio Caldara - however,
I'm not aware of any evidence that Bach performed a complete Ordinary. For
example, Bach had complete vocal parts for Palestrina's Missa sine nomine, but
only in the case of the Kyrie and Gloria are there existent instrumental and
continuo parts - the latter in Bach's hand.
Regards
Charles
Ben Crick
<fra...@datacomm.ch> wrote:
> I'm not aware of any evidence that Bach performed a complete Ordinary.
> For example, Bach had complete vocal parts for Palestrina's Missa sine
> nomine, but only in the case of the Kyrie and Gloria are there existent
> instrumental and continuo parts - the latter in Bach's hand.
Nor am I aware of any such evidence. Bach was capable of writing
all the music for the churches he served.
I'm only an "expert" in the Anglican liturgy. This was suddenly
turned into English by Thomas Cranmer in 1548 onwards, starting with
the Litany. Only with the accession of the boy king Edward VI could
he publish his 1549 First Prayer Book of Edward VI, followed by the
second edition in 1552. Queen Mary restored the Latin Mass, but on
her accession Queen Elizabeth I brought back the 1552 Prayer Book
with minimal alterations.
But the point I'm making is that the congregational parts of the Mass
were unchanged. It was only the Canon of the Mass (the consecration
prayer) that was objected to by the Reformers and amended. Many
anglican churches (e.g. All Saints Margaret Street, or St Alban
Brooke Street in London) regularly perform settings of the Mass by
Palestrina, Mozart, Haydn, etc. during normal sung services.
The Lutheran church in Bach's time continued using the Latin Mass.
It is only the Congregational part that is set to music. The
priest's part is intoned by the priest, solo, to the traditional
Gregorian tones. Bach's /Mass in b minor/ is "catholic" (small c)
in the strict sense of the word, "universal". Greek KATA + hOLIKOS,
KATHOLIKOS, "according to the the whole".
Ben
--
Ben Crick <ben....@argonet.co.uk> ZFC Tm
Acorn RPC700 RO4.03+Kinetic Card, 126 MB, 4.3 GB HD, x32 CD-ROM, MX56VX
Coming to you from Birchington near Margate in East Kent.
* Never give the devil a ride; he will always want to drive.
Safir
> Pretty good jazz (of the cocktail variety), but t'ain't Bach.
>
Well in some of the pieces the bass + the piano play together the exact
Bach notes.
Rythm is changed of course ... Bach just could not swing :-)
Sybrand Bakker
wrote:
>Are you suggesting that the Ordinary was performed in Leipzig at Bach's time? Is
>there any proof for this? I
Read Guenther Stiller Liturgical Life.
With the exception of the Creed, all other 4 parts of the Ordinary
were sung in Latin, although usually not all of them.
If a cantata was performed during a church service, the Ordinary was
in German.
However, if the choir didn't perform a cantata, the Ordinary was sung
in Latin with the exception of the Creed.
The so-called 'Missae breves' by Bach were definitely performed during
church services.
Leipzig and Dresden were competing each other for their orthodoxy. The
situation in Dresden wouldn't have been much different.
Bach didn't however write a 'Missa Tota' for the Dresden court, but a
Missa Brevis, the B-minor Mass consisted of the Kyrie and Gloria only
when Bach dedicated the work to August the Strong.
The other parts were added later, although it has been established the
Sanctus existed as early as 1725.
One must consider the B-minor Mass as a theoretical exercise, just as
the Art of Fugue. Bach knew he couldn't count on a full performance,
it is way too long for any service, whether Protestant or
Roman-Catholic.
Sybrand Bakker
anti-spam maatregel
om te antwoorden verwijder '-verwijderdit' uit mijn e-mail adres
John Briggs
There seem to be only two invocations in the Agnus Dei, rather than three.
John Briggs
John Briggs
As it was not performed in a liturgical context, and doesn't seem to have
been intended to be, the point is not obvious. It is much more likely that
Bach intended it as a complete setting in the /Musical/ tradition.
John Briggs
John Briggs
> In <YD17a.436$zk4...@news.cpqcorp.net> "Safir" <axica...@yahoo.com>
> writes:
>
>> he would be a Jazzman.
>
>> Do you agree ?
>
> What a relief! I thought you would ask "What would Bach drive?"
>
Not much help unless we also know about his chipping and putting.
John Briggs
Charles
:
: Bach's /Mass in b minor/ is "catholic" (small c) in the strict sense
: of the word, "universal". Greek KATA + hOLIKOS,
: KATHOLIKOS, "according to the the whole".
As Christoph Wolff put it: "Bach was able to underline what he perceived as the
timeless validity of the liturgical and musical meaning of the ancient [Roman
Catholic] Mass."
Regards
Charles
Charles
:
: Read Guenther Stiller Liturgical Life.
:
: With the exception of the Creed, all other 4 parts of the Ordinary
: were sung in Latin, although usually not all of them.
Von Dadelsen puts it this way: "Yet another group, finally, denies any connection
existing between the B minor Mass and the Roman Mass in general. By describing
the work as a purely Lutheran church music, the adherents of this group must
sacrifice its conceptual unity and divide it into four separate sections which
have no connection with each other."
Von Dadelsen also writes: "The sum total of its sections represents indeed a
complete Roman Catholic Mass ... Its homogeneity becomes so convincingly manifest
to the listener, that he hardly ponders over the reasons leading up to such a
result; indeed, the all-embracing musical coherence of the whole work appears so
compelling that circumstances alone should be capable of dispelling all doubts
about the conceptual unity of the last great vocal composition of J.S. Bach."
: If a cantata was performed during a church service, the Ordinary was
: in German.
Do you really mean the entire Ordinary was sung in German?
: However, if the choir didn't perform a cantata, the Ordinary was sung
: in Latin
Do you really mean the entire Ordinary was sung in Latin?
: with the exception of the Creed.
Bach, includes the Creed, however: "...Et unam sanctam catholicam et apostolicam
Ecclesiam" (...And I believe in one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church)
And when he repeats these words in "Et in Spiritum Sanctum", who can deny the
exceptional emphasis placed on the word "catholicam" as the singer nearly runs out
of breath?
: The so-called 'Missae breves' by Bach were definitely performed during
: church services.
One notes Spitta's view that the four works except for the F major, with its
Lutheran cantus firmus, were intended for the Roman Catholic Dresden court.
Likewise, Schweitzer states that Bach sent them to Dresden "as tokens of his
assiduity", referring to these works as "Barbaric".
: Leipzig and Dresden were competing each other for their orthodoxy.
What does this mean?
: The situation in Dresden wouldn't have been much different.
Are you implying that Lutheranism at Bach's time was essentially indistinguishable
from Catholicism?
: Bach didn't however write a 'Missa Tota' for the Dresden court, but a
: Missa Brevis, the B-minor Mass consisted of the Kyrie and Gloria only
: when Bach dedicated the work to August the Strong.
We agree then, that Bach's Missa Brevis was written explicitly for the Roman
Catholic court of Dresden?
: The other parts were added later, although it has been established the
: Sanctus existed as early as 1725.
Yes.
: One must consider the B-minor Mass as a theoretical exercise, just as
: the Art of Fugue. Bach knew he couldn't count on a full performance,
: it is way too long for any service, whether Protestant or
: Roman-Catholic.
I thought the idea that Art of Fugue was theoretical died out when Tovey showed it
could be played with two hands? Wasn't, Bach's purpose in the Art of fugue
performance and edification?
Regards
Charles
Beth Diane Garfinkel
> If I had to feed 21 children at one time or another _today_, I would
> gladly declare myself anything you'd want me to, in order to alleviate
> my financial problems and this would really have no relevance to
> whatever it was that I really believe.
There was an article in _Early Music_ awhile ago that inventoried
Bach's own private library. It seemed he owned all sorts of books that
would only belong to someone really devout--such as Luther's Bible,
for example--and based on the commentary he wrote in them, which seems
to be from around the time he stopped writing new church music, the more
the Leipzig Town Council snubbed him, the more he retreated into his
faith. So it would seem to have been real rather than just politic.
Beth
--
"Under the green wood tree/Who loves to lie with me/And tune his merry
note/Unto the sweet bird's throat/Come hither, come hither, come hither/
Here he shall see/No enemy/But winter and rough weather."
--William Shakespeare
Max
nitpicking:
there's note inegale...
the sarabande from the G Major keyboard Partita is oh so Couperin
Sybrand Bakker
Comments embedded
On Tue, 4 Mar 2003 23:19:25 +0100, "Charles" <fra...@datacomm.ch>
wrote:
>"Sybrand Bakker" <gooid...@sybrandb.demon.nl> wrote in message
>news:lb676vs7mr1kd37ef...@4ax.com...
>:
>: Read Guenther Stiller Liturgical Life.
>:
>: With the exception of the Creed, all other 4 parts of the Ordinary
>: were sung in Latin, although usually not all of them.
>
>Von Dadelsen puts it this way: "Yet another group, finally, denies any connection
>existing between the B minor Mass and the Roman Mass in general. By describing
>the work as a purely Lutheran church music, the adherents of this group must
>sacrifice its conceptual unity and divide it into four separate sections which
>have no connection with each other."
>
>Von Dadelsen also writes: "The sum total of its sections represents indeed a
>complete Roman Catholic Mass ... Its homogeneity becomes so convincingly manifest
>to the listener, that he hardly ponders over the reasons leading up to such a
>result; indeed, the all-embracing musical coherence of the whole work appears so
>compelling that circumstances alone should be capable of dispelling all doubts
>about the conceptual unity of the last great vocal composition of J.S. Bach."
>
>: If a cantata was performed during a church service, the Ordinary was
>: in German.
>
>Do you really mean the entire Ordinary was sung in German?
Yes in the form of Lutheran chorales
Kyrie Kyrie Gott Vater in Ewigkeit
Gloria Allein Gott in der Hoeh sei Ehr
Credo Wir glauben all an einen Gott
Sanctus Jesaja dem Propheten das geschah
Agnus O Lamm Gottes Unschuldig
with the exception of the Gloria and the Agnus which both have been
translated by Nicolaus Decius (to the regret of Luther) all the other
hymns are by Luther himself
>
>: However, if the choir didn't perform a cantata, the Ordinary was sung
>: in Latin
>
>Do you really mean the entire Ordinary was sung in Latin?
Yes, by the choir
>
>: with the exception of the Creed.
>
>Bach, includes the Creed, however: "...Et unam sanctam catholicam et apostolicam
>Ecclesiam" (...And I believe in one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church)
>
>And when he repeats these words in "Et in Spiritum Sanctum", who can deny the
>exceptional emphasis placed on the word "catholicam" as the singer nearly runs out
>of breath?
>
catholicam literally means 'general' and nothing else. It has nothing
to do with Roman Catholic.
>: The so-called 'Missae breves' by Bach were definitely performed during
>: church services.
>
>One notes Spitta's view that the four works except for the F major, with its
>Lutheran cantus firmus, were intended for the Roman Catholic Dresden court.
Spitta is wrong
>Likewise, Schweitzer states that Bach sent them to Dresden "as tokens of his
>assiduity", referring to these works as "Barbaric".
>
>: Leipzig and Dresden were competing each other for their orthodoxy.
>
>What does this mean?
If the practice of singing the Ordinary in Latin should have been a
heresy, the Landesconsistorium in Dresden would definitely have taken
measures against it. Anyway, Dresden did block a Leipzig professor
because they didn't consider him orthodox enough.
>
>: The situation in Dresden wouldn't have been much different.
>
>Are you implying that Lutheranism at Bach's time was essentially indistinguishable
>from Catholicism?
>
I'm not. The *liturgy* had many things in common, and Lutheranism
never abolished the liturgy inherited from the Middle Ages.
However, bear in mind, Luther wanted *reform* of the church, he was
thrown out (excommunicated) and was *forced* to start his own church.
He didn't want that.
Also bear in mind that after the 30 years war, Lutherans and Roman
Catholics were forced to get along better, and they did: though August
the Strong converted to Roman Catholocism, that didn't have any
consequences for the Lutheran Church.
>: Bach didn't however write a 'Missa Tota' for the Dresden court, but a
>: Missa Brevis, the B-minor Mass consisted of the Kyrie and Gloria only
>: when Bach dedicated the work to August the Strong.
>
>We agree then, that Bach's Missa Brevis was written explicitly for the Roman
>Catholic court of Dresden?
To obtain the title of Court Capellmeister, yes.
The work was however never performed at the court. (The score was
found unopened)
>
>: The other parts were added later, although it has been established the
>: Sanctus existed as early as 1725.
>
>Yes.
>
>: One must consider the B-minor Mass as a theoretical exercise, just as
>: the Art of Fugue. Bach knew he couldn't count on a full performance,
>: it is way too long for any service, whether Protestant or
>: Roman-Catholic.
>
>I thought the idea that Art of Fugue was theoretical died out when Tovey showed it
>could be played with two hands? Wasn't, Bach's purpose in the Art of fugue
>performance and edification?
>
Oh sure, but I think no one played the AoF or the WTC in full in
public during Bachs lifetime.
>
>Regards
>Charles
>
>
>
>
>
>
Regards
Morpheus, Inc.
[snip]
> There was an article in _Early Music_ awhile ago that inventoried
> Bach's own private library. It seemed he owned all sorts of books that
> would only belong to someone really devout--such as Luther's Bible,
> for example--and based on the commentary he wrote in them, which seems
> to be from around the time he stopped writing new church music, the more
> the Leipzig Town Council snubbed him, the more he retreated into his
> faith. So it would seem to have been real rather than just politic.
Oh, I am not denying his faith. I, for one, am all for it, from what I
gather so far from the biographies I've read.
However, your example isn't a very convincing one: If I die, people are
going to find in my library collection both at least 4 bibles (NIV, King
James, Greek original NT (with links and refs to the OT) and an
illustrated one along with analyses and translations), and half a dozen
books from early church fathers analyses, prayer verses from the OT,
various Orthodox Church prayer manuals from Saint Chrysostom, plus the
Gospel according to Thomas (Secret Gospel) and other various related
books.
These _still_ doesn't say much about what I believe. :*)
> Beth
> --
> "Under the green wood tree/Who loves to lie with me/And tune his merry
> note/Unto the sweet bird's throat/Come hither, come hither, come hither/
> Here he shall see/No enemy/But winter and rough weather."
> --William Shakespeare
Zachary Uram
<morp...@olympus.mons> wrote:
>
>However, your example isn't a very convincing one: If I die, people are
>going to find in my library collection both at least 4 bibles (NIV, King
>James, Greek original NT (with links and refs to the OT) and an
>illustrated one along with analyses and translations), and half a dozen
>books from early church fathers analyses, prayer verses from the OT,
>various Orthodox Church prayer manuals from Saint Chrysostom, plus the
>Gospel according to Thomas (Secret Gospel) and other various related
>books.
>
>These _still_ doesn't say much about what I believe. :*)
Hi,
Yes but you didn't write what Bach did in the margins, nor have you
lived a life of faith that was both one and the same in public and
private life. Bach was not a "fashionable Christian" who wore faith
when it suited him. Everything in the historical record shows he had a
pious and deeply sincere Protestant faith.
Zach
Sybrand Bakker
wrote:
>Hi,
>
>Yes but you didn't write what Bach did in the margins, nor have you
>lived a life of faith that was both one and the same in public and
>private life. Bach was not a "fashionable Christian" who wore faith
>when it suited him. Everything in the historical record shows he had a
>pious and deeply sincere Protestant faith.
>
>Zach
Sadly enough the commentary of Bach seems to have been limited to
verses related to music.
Also sadly enough one really can't make statements like the above
without knowing how religious his contemporaries were.
It is known how often Bach went to the Communion, as one was required
to confess before going, and the confession records have been kept.
They don't show Bach as more religious than his fellow citizens.
Texoki
"Sybrand Bakker" <gooid...@sybrandb.demon.nl> escribió en el mensaje
news:73qh6vs1dekuetstf...@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 07 Mar 2003 01:41:45 -0500, Zachary Uram <net...@stargate.net>
> wrote:
>
> >Hi,
> >
> >Yes but you didn't write what Bach did in the margins, nor have you
> >lived a life of faith that was both one and the same in public and
> >private life. Bach was not a "fashionable Christian" who wore faith
> >when it suited him. Everything in the historical record shows he had a
> >pious and deeply sincere Protestant faith.
> >
> >Zach
>
> Sadly enough the commentary of Bach seems to have been limited to
> verses related to music.
> Also sadly enough one really can't make statements like the above
> without knowing how religious his contemporaries were.
> It is known how often Bach went to the Communion, as one was required
> to confess before going, and the confession records have been kept.
> They don't show Bach as more religious than his fellow citizens.
¿Do you value your faith by the number of confessions?
tex.
Sybrand Bakker
wrote:
I tried to explain no one simply knows whether Bach was more deeply
religious compared to his contemporaries. Bach is about the only
composer from that era where anything is known about his faith.
The research I was quoting is from Stiller. There seemed to have been
a steep decline in lutherans in Leipzig going to Holy Communion in the
second half of the 18th century. Contrary to what you seem to say, to
me that does say something about how seriously they were taking their
faith.