Learning The Well-Tempered Clavier.... (should I)?
Michael
Ok. Here's the question:
How long (with average practice time and a little talent) would
it take a NEW (Brand new) student to be able to play the WTC (book
one) in its entirety?
Thank you,
-Considering Piano Tutelage
Bernard S. Greenberg
Not less than four or five years.
Others?
Bernie
--
Remove the spamblocks from my address above to reply to me. I apologize
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Sidoti Antonio
On Fri, 17 Oct 1997, Michael wrote:
> Ok. Here's the question:
>
> How long (with average practice time and a little talent) would
> it take a NEW (Brand new) student to be able to play the WTC (book
> one) in its entirety?
>
> Thank you,
> -Considering Piano Tutelage
>
What do you mean by "brand new". What music can you play? How old are you?
Anyway, I think that the WTC I is (one of) the best books of music to
play. After playing some of the preludes and fugues you'll find "easy"
to play Bach's music (english suites, toccatas,...) as well as any other
music. The reason is that, IMHO, Bach's WTC I (and I think that it is
the same for WTC II) is that there is a constant level of difficulties in
all the fugues and preludes it's very hard to find some repetitions there
(like the prelude of english suite in G minor or A minor (?)).
Aldo from a technical point of view, I think it's better to play bach
then Hanon or Czerny.
Well, now I come back to your question. I don't play piano every day(4
days a week more or less). I practice one hour, one our and a half, I
don't play uniquely WTC I (I play Beethoven, Chopin, Ravel...) , but in
one year I can study five preludes and fugues. IMHO WTC I, is one of the
most difficult piano music I've ever played. So if you haven'touched a
piano before, it's better to wait at least for three years (well, of
course it's depend a lot on how much you are motivated ...).
Only few words more: you have to play each prelude and fugue very
well, (you don't have to play it like Glenn Gould of course ;-) )
otherwise you'll forget very easily the preludes and fugues you aren't
practising.
Bye, an good luck.
Antonio
_______________________________________________________________________________
a n t o n i o s i d o t i
e-mail sid...@science.unitn.it
www http://alpha.science.unitn.it/~sidoti/
_______________________________________________________________________________
WTC48
Michael wrote:
>
> Ok. Here's the question:
>
> How long (with average practice time and a little talent) would
> it take a NEW (Brand new) student to be able to play the WTC (book
> one) in its entirety?
>
> Thank you,
> -Considering Piano Tutelage
What a great idea! Don't even ask, just do it! I've been playing the piano
for nearly 50 years, the WTC almost as long, and have performed the whole of
Book I in public, and I'm still not satisfied, but I don't regret a minute of
the time I've put into it.
Peter Fish (wt...@aol.com)
Darren
Bernard S. Greenberg wrote:
>
> Michael wrote:
> >
> > Ok. Here's the question:
> >
> > How long (with average practice time and a little talent) would
> > it take a NEW (Brand new) student to be able to play the WTC (book
> > one) in its entirety?
> >
> > Thank you,
> > -Considering Piano Tutelage
>
>
> Others?
>
> Bernie
I think its vital to get a good teacher. Its also very important to
rember that as an adult beginer often you want to play Bach on day one
but you will actually be playing nursery rhymes. I found this period of
learning piano as an adult was terrible but the rewards on the other
side are enormus.
When I started learning the piano 2 1/2 years ago I found it quite
frustrating. This was because I could already play the violin and so it
was frustrating to be able to play Bachs violin music but when I tried
to play his clavier music I couldn't.
Only now am I starting to dip into WTC book 1 and a couple of the French
suites. Its well worth the effort that practice involves.
Also, as well as an upright piano I have a yamaha clavinova digital
piano. While the sound of the digital piano is excelent it is still not
as good as the upright. However the digital piano also has a harpsicord
voice and 2 different organ voices, all of which are great for playing
Bach.
I wouldn't have a digital piano instead of a traditional one but its
great to have it as well as. If you love playing Bach's clavier music I
recommend you get one.
Darren.
Tord Kallqvist Romstad
In article <34481441...@basistech.dontspamme.com>, Bernard S. Greenberg
>Michael wrote:
>>
>> Ok. Here's the question:
>>
>> How long (with average practice time and a little talent) would
>> it take a NEW (Brand new) student to be able to play the WTC (book
>> one) in its entirety?
>>
>> Thank you,
>> -Considering Piano Tutelage
>
>Not less than four or five years.
>
>Others?
Unfortunately I can't agree. I have been playing the piano for seven years,
but I still can't play most of WTC I. The only preludes & fugues I have been
able to play without too many errors is the C major, C minor, A minor and
B flat minor. At the moment, I practise the B flat major and the B minor.
The answer to the question in the subject line is definitely "yes". The WTC
(especially part I) is my favorite piece(s) of music, and it is even more
wonderful to play than to listen to. Having to practise all the voices
of the fugues separately at a slow tempo makes you discover details you
would never notice by merely listening.
Tord
Tord Kallqvist Romstad
In article <3449E9...@ath.forthnet.gr>, john gallidakis wrote:
>Not to
>mention that some of the preludes and fugues are *very* hard technically
>(and emotionally) to perform. Here are some examples of excerpts that
>need exceptional tech abilities: Fugue I, Prelude VI, Prelude XI,
>Prelude XXI, Fugue XX. I consider Fugue XX to be amongst the most
>difficult works altogether.
Funny. I have tried to play most fugues of WTC I, with little success.
Fugues #1 and #20 are among the few fugues I have managed to learn (and
my technical abilities are far from exceptional). Music is like mathematics:
You should never believe other people when they say that a particular piece
is difficult (or easy). You will probably discover that your opinion of
what is difficult is different from everybody else. For instance, I find the
A minor fugue easier than the two part invention in F major. I doubt that
many people would agree with me.
Tord
WTC48
rom...@priamos.uio.no (Tord Kallqvist Romstad) wrote:
> I have been playing the piano for seven years,
>but I still can't play most of WTC I. The only preludes & >fugues I have been
>able to play without too many errors is the C major, C >minor, A minor and
>B flat minor.
If you play the A minor fugue well, you can play anything Bach wrote for
keyboard. I would put that on my list of Bach's most difficult clavier
pieces, along with the fugues in B flat minor and C sharp minor in the second
book, the Gigue from the 5th Partita, and several of the Goldberg Variations.
Peter Fish (wt...@aol.com)
hamei@pacbell.net@pacbell.net
In <34481441...@basistech.dontspamme.com>, "Bernard S. Greenberg" <spamme...@basistech.dontspamme.com> writes:
>Michael wrote:
>>
>>
>> How long (with average practice time and a little talent) would
>> it take a NEW (Brand new) student to be able to play the WTC (book
>> one) in its entirety?
shouldn't this read " fewer " than four or five years ?
>Others?
>Bernie
>--
Tord Kallqvist Romstad
I don't claim that I play the A minor fugue well. Actually, I don't think I
play anything well. I said that I am (or rather was) able to play this piece
"without too many errors". However, I don't agree that the A minor fugue is
nearly as difficult as the other pieces you mention (for me, at least). I
wish I could play the Gigue from the fifth Partita, but unfortunately I doubt
that I will ever be able to do that.
Tord
Darren
john gallidakis wrote:
>
> Michael wrote:
> >
> > Ok. Here's the question:
> >
> > it take a NEW (Brand new) student to be able to play the WTC (book
> > one) in its entirety?
> >
> > -Considering Piano Tutelage
>
> professional performer who wants to *really* impress his/her audience on
> a world tour, that feat is almost impossible. I have been performing and
> studying the keyboard works for 28 years, and still only play excerpts
> from Book I and II and after thousands of hours of practice. Not to
> mention that some of the preludes and fugues are *very* hard technically
With respect John
I can't believe that after 28 years you carn't play the WTC 1 & 2. I
know its hard but even so if you do at least 1 hour practice EVERY day
its almost possible to progress at a good rate.
It sounds as if you have had a bad teacher or you are not practicing
correctly.
Did you teach yourself or did you go to a professional teacher? Private
teaching can be expensive (I pay £20 per hour) put you cannot put a
price on the firm technique you gain from such tuition.
Darren.
Michael John Holme
--
>
> > >rom...@priamos.uio.no (Tord Kallqvist Romstad) wrote:
> > >
> > >If you play the A minor fugue well, you can play anything Bach wrote for
> > > keyboard. I would put that on my list of Bach's most difficult clavier
> > > pieces, along with the fugues in B flat minor and C sharp minor in the
> second
> > > book, the Gigue from the 5th Partita, and several of the Goldberg
> Variations.
>
> play the first prelude, but I guess that one is much easier than the rest.
> Which one of them should I continue with?
>
> -Erik Řstlyngen
You could try the f minor from book 1, it can be played very slowly yet
very effectively as long as you are sensitive, or if you don't mind lots
of sharps and flats the e flat minor from book 1 or F# major from book 1
(mind you you need a good trill for the later, though it can be
tastefully made short, however some people would probably object. I
thing GG plays it short). These pieces are technically not so difficult.
But it is true to say that (at least on a technical level) the prelude
in C from book one is a lot easier than any of the others in either
book.
Mike Holme
------------------------
| Michael John Holme, Senior Technician |
| Dept Computing, Manchester Metropolitan University |
| Chester Street, Manchester, M1 5GD, United Kingdom |
| email : M.H...@doc.mmu.ac.uk |
| WWW : http://www.doc.mmu.ac.uk/STAFF/M.Holme |
------------------------------------------------------
Jsb1441
Darren wrote
>I can't believe that after 28 years you carn't play the WTC 1 & 2. I
>know its hard but even so if you do at least 1 hour practice EVERY day
>its almost possible to progress at a good rate.
>
>It sounds as if you have had a bad teacher or you are not practicing
>correctly.
>
>
I think there may be a problem of semantics when it comes to the word "play".
I know some people who have told me that they play many of the Preludes and
Fugues from the WTC. Then when I have actually heard them at the keyboard I
have come to the conclusion that they really "play" none of them. It also
depends on ones innate ability. For some people a lifetime of practice will
never afford them the joy of truly playing a Bach fugue correctly.
John H
Ben Crick
In article <01bcdec9$296048e0$12c4...@Erik.camo.no>, "Erik Østlyngen"
<er...@camo.no> wrote:
> Which of the fugues and preludes in the book are the easiest, then? I can
> play the first prelude, but I guess that one is much easier than the rest.
> Which one of them should I continue with?
Pick one or two that you really LIKE. I love the c minor; the C# major;
the D major; the g minor; the Ab major; the Bb major AND minor. None of
these are difficult to wrap your fingers around. And if you have Book II,
you must do the f minor.
Don't be put off by the sight of a seven-sharps key signature. You soon
get the hang of it. The C# major prelude is easy, like a 2-part Invention,
and its fugue is only in three voices.
My mother bought me Book I when I was a small lad in 1945. I've been
playing them and loving them ever since. And yes˜ I began with the C
major Prelude and Fugue I.
Should you? Yes you should!!!
--
Ben Crick <ben....@argonet.co.uk> ZFC S
Acorn RiscPC 700, 37 MB, not yet StrongArm, USR 14.4
Coming to you from Birchington near Margate in Kent.
Sidoti Antonio
On 22 Oct 1997, Erik =D8stlyngen wrote:
>=20
> Which of the fugues and preludes in the book are the easiest, then? I can
> play the first prelude, but I guess that one is much easier than the rest=
.
> Which one of them should I continue with?
>
Then the second one the prelude and Fugue in C minor. Be careful of the=20
Fugue in C Major, it's quite difficult.
Good luck.=20
___________________________________________________________________________=
____
=09 a n t o n i o =09 s i d o t i=20
=09=09
=09 e-mail=09 sid...@science.unitn.it
=09 www =09=09 http://alpha.science.unitn.it/~sidoti/
___________________________________________________________________________=
____
=09=09
Ben Crick
In article <19971023160...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, jsb...@aol.com
(Jsb1441) wrote:
> I find it quite incredible that you chose the C# major Prelude and Fugue
> to use as an example of one of the easy ones. This is one of the more
> difficult ones and certainly not to be attempted by a novice. Let me
> quote what Landowska says of it....."How many days and nights of
> unrelenting work, of deprivation, of indescribable efforts to succeed in
> playing with insouciance, with careless ease. Fugue III, for example."
> And Landowska was not a beginner. I rest my case!
Really, you surprise me. Wanda Landowska was one of my boyhood icons.
I learnt the Prelude III at the age of 14 in a few weeks. The Fugue took
a lot longer; but really I found no intractable problems. The Orlando
Morgan edition transcribes Prelude & Fugue III into 5 flats, if some find
that easier to read; but 7 sharps is easy to get used to. I liked it, so
I found it a labour of love to learn it.
Some people play everything far too fast. IMHO Albert Schweitzer was quite
right to play things at slower tempi, so as to have time to appreciate the
nuances of the music. Not to drag things and play them too slowly; but to
give the music time to speak before it is past and gone!
But I did say "pick one or two...". Read some through, and then learn the
one or two that appeal most immediately.
WTC48
prus...@staff.uiuc.edu (John E. Prussing) writes:
>Who would think of performing Book I in its entirety in a >concert!
>
>Actually, it did happen once. Ralph Kirkpatrick did it (on >harpsichord) at
>Harvard in the mid-late 1960s as part of the Cambridge >Early Music Society
>concert series. The organizer, Prof. G. Wallace Woodworth, >announced at
>an earlier concert that the house lights would be up so >that people
>could bring their scores and follow along. Kirkpatrick >played two
>preludes and fugues (as I recall) without music, then left >the stage
>(to peek at the music?), came back with a wrench for a >little tune-up,
>then played two more, etc. There was probably an >intermission midway.
>It was a wonderful evening, but I suspect not many >performances of an
>entire book of the WTC have been performed in public.>
He played a preview recital in 1963 or 64, in the workshop of the harpsichord
maker William Dowd, on a one-manual harpsichord, without (I believe) any
changes of registration, using a Lee's pocket score held open with
clothespins. It was quite an event.
I have played 18 pieces from book I in recitals on both the harpsichord and the
organ, and hope someday to do the entire volume, probably on the piano. I
have reordered the pieces into a key sequence moving from major to relative
minor around the circle of fifths on the flat side (the reverse of the Chopin
preludes), beginning and ending with C major. The first set ends with the F
minor fugue, the second with the C# majof fugue, and the third returns to C
major. The whole program takes just under two hours (plus two intermissions.
Peter Fish (wt...@aol.com)
Jsb1441
>Michael wrote:
>
> How long (with average practice time and a little talent) would
> it take a NEW (Brand new) student to be able to play the WTC
> (book one) in its entirety?
Perhaps one should begin at the beginning. Since the original poster says that
he is a complete beginner might I suggest doing, in thier entirety, the Two
Part Inventions. This might give him a little insight into what is called for
if he should choose to do the entire WTC.
John
John E. Prussing
wt...@aol.com (WTC48) writes:
> prus...@staff.uiuc.edu (John E. Prussing) writes:
>>Who would think of performing Book I in its entirety in a >concert!
>>
>>Actually, it did happen once. Ralph Kirkpatrick did it (on >harpsichord) at
>>Harvard in the mid-late 1960s as part of the Cambridge >Early Music Society
>>concert series. The organizer, Prof. G. Wallace Woodworth, >announced at
>>an earlier concert that the house lights would be up so >that people
>>could bring their scores and follow along. Kirkpatrick >played two
>>preludes and fugues (as I recall) without music, then left >the stage
>>(to peek at the music?), came back with a wrench for a >little tune-up,
>>then played two more, etc. There was probably an >intermission midway.
>>It was a wonderful evening, but I suspect not many >performances of an
>>entire book of the WTC have been performed in public.>
>He played a preview recital in 1963 or 64, in the workshop of the harpsichord
> maker William Dowd, on a one-manual harpsichord, without (I believe) any
> changes of registration, using a Lee's pocket score held open with
> clothespins. It was quite an event.
Yes, those were the days of harpsichord builders in Cambridge/Boston.
Besides Dowd there were Hubbard and Hertz, as I recall. Are there still
harpsichord makers thereabouts?
>I have played 18 pieces from book I in recitals on both the harpsichord and the
> organ, and hope someday to do the entire volume, probably on the piano. I
Piano? Why piano?
> have reordered the pieces into a key sequence moving from major to relative
> minor around the circle of fifths on the flat side (the reverse of the Chopin
> preludes), beginning and ending with C major. The first set ends with the F
> minor fugue, the second with the C# majof fugue, and the third returns to C
> major. The whole program takes just under two hours (plus two intermissions.
The first *set* being up to the first intermission, I assume. Will you
repeat the C major prelude and fugue at the end, ala the Goldberg
Variations?
You must have a great deal of stamina.
>
>Peter Fish (wt...@aol.com)
--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
John E. Prussing
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Maurice B. Felde
I am looking for a masterpiece drawing or painting that would fit along
side Bach's coral, Sleepers, Wake!. This is the last in a series of seven
chorals for a small hymn book I'm preparing. Any assistance or suggestion
appreciated.
Maurice Felde
mbfe...@homer.louisville.edu
Bernard S. Greenberg
The famous chorale prelude is an arrangement of the fourth movement of
the Cantata BWV 140, Wachet auf, ruft uns die Stimme, for the
27th Sunday of Trinity, which presents and considers the Parable of the
Wise and Foolish Virgins, Matthew 25:1.
Find or create some art appropriate to that.
If you mean the chorale itself, it's Philip Nicolai's, not
Bach's.
Bernie
(btw, it's "chorale").
Torodd Rasch Hansen
If you're not a experienced player, why not start with the "Kleine
Preludien/Fughetten" and "Inventionen und Sinfonien"? Bach's "French
Suites" are also a exellent choice. The "French Suites" was composed to his
second wife and are known as his "light" Suites. That means, they are quite
simple to play!
If you do this, and think you will be much better prepared to deal with the
WTC.
Torodd Rasch Hansen
john gallidakis <jg...@ath.forthnet.gr> skrev i artikkelen
<3454C8...@ath.forthnet.gr>...
Darren wrote:
>
> john gallidakis wrote:
> >
> > Michael wrote:
> > >
> > > Ok. Here's the question:
> > >
> > > How long (with average practice time and a little talent) would
> > > it take a NEW (Brand new) student to be able to play the WTC (book
> > > one) in its entirety?
> > >
> > > Thank you,
> > > -Considering Piano Tutelage
> >
> > Quit now, while you still have your sanity. Unless you are a
> > professional performer who wants to *really* impress his/her audience
on
> > a world tour, that feat is almost impossible. I have been performing
and
> > studying the keyboard works for 28 years, and still only play excerpts
> > from Book I and II and after thousands of hours of practice. Not to
> > mention that some of the preludes and fugues are *very* hard
technically
> > [SNIP]
>
> With respect John
No offense taken Darren.
> I can't believe that after 28 years you carn't play the WTC 1 & 2. I
> know its hard but even so if you do at least 1 hour practice EVERY day
> its almost possible to progress at a good rate.
It's just a matter of how one defines "playing". While I am not denying
that given a certain amount of practicing every day under a good teacher
and lots of self determination might bring about the desired results
after a reasonable time, I do find the amount of underlying data in each
piece to be overwhelming. Now, if one just goes through a specific fugue
or prelude and simply plays the notes, I (personally) do not consider
the piece having been learned. I do favour the idea of studying the
whole philosophy behind every single Bach work, such as how to play each
theme entrance, when to accentuate those entrances, when to bring out
the episodes, and so on and so forth. But I have found that a conscious
effort on my part to keep track of what needs to be accented, usually
spoils the piece. Yes, there were times when I actually felt satisfied
with what I played, but these times were rare. As a result, I abandoned
the idea of learning all of them, and concentrated on learning some
correctly. Now maybe my whole mentality behind the above may be wrong,
but it's my very own idea of awe for the pieces (and not limited to the
WTC) that has backfired against me. I thus declared myself incapable of
performing any Bach piece correctly, and am simply satisfied from either
listening to it, or "attempting" to perform it correctly, however crude
this "attempt" may be. However, there have been instances where this
theoretical "impossibility" has been transcended, (Gould, Landowska,
Ahlgrim) and I cannot but joke myself for even trying. Forgive me, but I
do find the mass of information in both books to be huge. Therefore, I
think it is not simply a matter of "clicking" the right notes. In my
opinion it is much more than that. I am afraid, I cannot express
correctly what it is. It is beyond human words or verbal/textual
descriptions. Bach's music represents a particular form of
"transcendence" which I consider to be almost impossible to apply or
perform practically. But then again, THERE ARE performers out there who
DO and CAN perform correctly. I am simply not one of them.
>
> It sounds as if you have had a bad teacher or you are not practicing
> correctly.
Partly true. Part of my inability to completely master some of the
pieces, was incorrect fingering, which up to 5 years ago, I fervently
appilied and which brought disasterous results. When I started studying
the pieces with the correct fingering, things became much easier. As far
as my teachers, no, it had nothing to do with it. The last one, a
Julliard grad was actually terrific, but specialized on List and Mozart,
thing which made matters even worse, as we hardly ever agreed on the
interpretation of particular Bach pieces.
>
> Did you teach yourself or did you go to a professional teacher? Private
> teaching can be expensive (I pay í20 per hour) put you cannot put a
> price on the firm technique you gain from such tuition.
No, I did not teach myself. I do own a diploma from a conservatory. Yet,
I quit the professional musician's life in favour of something more
financially secure, and I now regret it.
>
> Darren.
--
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Torodd Rasch Hansen <toro...@online.no> skrev i artikkelen
<01bcf852$18434600$8e024382@default>...