B-3 won't start.
Dave Campbell
saw allow of road time but was then packed away. The start motor will bring
everything up to speed, but when the run switch is engaged, instead of
coming down to cruising speed, both motors wind down to stop.
The 250 ohm load resistor is good and appears to go in circuit when run is
switched.
The sync motor appears to receive power because I can feel it polarize, and
the drive shaft draws toward the sync motor.
Everything is well oiled. And the whole mech. looks better that I though it
would.
Which motor is giving the trouble?
Any Ideas?
Scott Hawthorn
>Which motor is giving the trouble?
>Any Ideas?
The start motor may not be disengaging properly. Clean (WD-40) and oil the
clutch mechanism. I had these exact symptoms and that was the fix. Good for
you on your reporting and checking the resistor first.
-Scott
--
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Peter D Abrams
Dave Campbell wrote:
>
> Just pulled a friends B-3 out of the closet (been there 10 years). This B-3
> saw allow of road time but was then packed away. The start motor will bring
> everything up to speed, but when the run switch is engaged, instead of
> coming down to cruising speed, both motors wind down to stop.
> The 250 ohm load resistor is good and appears to go in circuit when run is
> switched.
As long as it is "out" of the circuit when the run switch is off,
this is a good thing. Do you actually hear the start motor wind down a
little when the run switch is on?
> The sync motor appears to receive power because I can feel it polarize, and
> the drive shaft draws toward the sync motor.
> Everything is well oiled. And the whole mech. looks better that I though it
> would.
> Which motor is giving the trouble?
> Any Ideas?
The Run motor has 2 windings on it, you should have 4 wires coming
out of the motor to the distribution panel. If only one of the 2 coils
is working, you'd still feel some resistance when it's powered up, but
it wouldn't have enough torque to keep the TG running. I'd try measuring
both of the windings, and see if one of them is open. Open solder
joints, etc could always be a possibility too.
Good luck, keep us posted!
pda
Jax Fl.
Bull...@aol.com
dcam...@ec.rr.com writes:
<<
Just checked the run motor. Both winding read 174 ohm. I assume they are
both good since they read the same. I also pulled the start motor and
cleaned some rust off the armature. I'm still not sure the starter is up to
speed.
Is there any way to tach the tone generator?
>>
Not being a Hammond tech but more of a Hammond Hack, I will tread lightly
here,
I have been told by more than one qualified tech that the start and run
motors almost never go bad in these older Hammonds, I have a Model A that
still starts right up every day, maybe the TWG needs a good cleaning /
degreasing, and then needs to be hand oiled. Just a Thought.
Harry
jm.f
I am Jean Michel from France.
Your problem is on sunchroneus motor. The line voltage is to law. Control
the line voltage. If line voltage is under 115 V, insert a AC/voltage
régulator or a transformer : primary 117 / secondary 130 V to lift up the
voltage. I had the same probleme on a C3 in france last month, and now, with
a transformer, it's allright. (Excuse my bad english !)
so long.
Jean Michel
Dave Campbell <dcam...@ec.rr.com> a écrit dans le message :
5Zpd6.70030$YQ.15...@typhoon.southeast.rr.com...
Christoph Kukulies
> Hello,
> I am Jean Michel from France.
> Your problem is on sunchroneus motor. The line voltage is to law. Control
> the line voltage. If line voltage is under 115 V, insert a AC/voltage
> régulator or a transformer : primary 117 / secondary 130 V to lift up the
> voltage. I had the same probleme on a C3 in france last month, and now, with
> a transformer, it's allright. (Excuse my bad english !)
> so long.
> Jean Michel
When the organ has been in the closet for ten years, play
'Blues on the closet - Oscar Pettiford' :-)
Kidding aside: It is very unlikely that a too low line voltage is the
culprit. But very likely that the organ needs oiling. Probably hand oiling
as someone already stated, I believe.
Fill the oil cups once or twice a day and let the oil make its way to
the bearings during the next couple of days. You need some patience.
Also you can bring oil directly to the entry bearing at the
sync motor side.
Turning the TG axis by hand (with power cord plugged off) must give a feeling
of a free running axis. When it stops immediately, the organ needs
oil.
Another possibility could be that you have a broken circuitry around the start/
run switch, such that the shunt resistor for the start motor is not
activated when putting the run switch in while the start switch is still
being held.
>
> Dave Campbell <dcam...@ec.rr.com> a écrit dans le message :
> 5Zpd6.70030$YQ.15...@typhoon.southeast.rr.com...
--
Chris Christoph P. U. Kukulies ku...@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de
"The Hammond Tonewheel Organ - God's harmonica"
http://blues.physik.rwth-aachen.de/hammond.html
Dean Marines
> I have been told by more than one qualified tech that the start and run
> motors almost never go bad in these older Hammonds.
FWIW, I had an M3 with a bad run motor, and had to replace it. I
determined this when I removed the TWG coupling springs, and noticed the
run motor did not spin freely when turning it with my hand. It was binding
in someway.
Dean M
Christoph Kukulies
> On Tue, 30 Jan 2001 Bull...@aol.com wrote:
>
>
> FWIW, I had an M3 with a bad run motor, and had to replace it. I
> determined this when I removed the TWG coupling springs, and noticed the
> run motor did not spin freely when turning it with my hand. It was binding
> in someway.
Yes, of course, because the oiling wicks may have been torn and/or it didn't
have had enough oiling through the year. It's like saying:
"I need a new car because its ash trays are filled up"
>
> Dean M
>
>
--
Chris Christoph P. U. Kukulies ku...@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de
"The Hammond Tonewheel Organ - God's harmonica"
http://blues.physik.rwth-aachen.de/hammond.html
Bill Coe
> FWIW, I had an M3 with a bad run motor, and had to replace it. I
> determined this when I removed the TWG coupling springs, and noticed the
> run motor did not spin freely when turning it with my hand. It was binding
> in someway.
>
My spinet's run motor was all bound up, just as you describe. I removed the
motor (under advice from another list member) and loosened all the visible
screws. The motor cannot be opened, but by loosening the screws and working
the motor shaft, it suddenly came free in my hand. The reinstalled motor
works great now. Try it before you do any drastic.
Bill
Scott Hawthorn
I'm going to repeat this advice, because it is far and away the most common
and likely reason for your problem. This should be the first thing you do.
Failed run motors are quite uncommon.
At 06:49 PM 1/29/2001, you wrote:
>Which motor is giving the trouble?
>Any Ideas?
The start motor may not be disengaging properly. Clean (WD-40) and oil the
clutch mechanism. I had these exact symptoms and that was the fix. Good for
you on your reporting and checking the resistor first.
-Scott
--
Dave Campbell
the start/run circuits are good. When the start switch is on, the start
motor engages and brings everything up to a good speed. Everything sounds
smooth. When the run switch is applied, the 250 ohm resistor is definity
switched in series with the start motor. The resistor drops 65 Vac and gets
warm. Which means the start motor receives half voltage, which means the
motor should run at half speed. This is the proper start sequence. Except
in this unit, the whole mech slows down to nothing. I never get half speed.
So... either the start motor is weak and can't handle the load at half, or
the load is greater than normal. For now I will continue to add oil and run
the start motor as much as I can. All the oil wicks appear to be intact and
I don't see any signs of oil run-off.
Thanks for the help, and I'll keep you posted.
Dave Campbell
sequence (when the start switch is released, and the motor disengages). I
did pull the motor and cleaned the armature with WD40.
My troubles lie in step 2, where both motors are engaged and the whole
generator is brought down to cruising speed. Step 2 in my unit just brings
down the whole generator.
"Scott Hawthorn" <organ...@bainbridge.net> wrote in message
news:4.3.2.7.2.200101...@pop.bainbridgeisland.net...
Bull...@aol.com
dcam...@ec.rr.com writes:
<< did pull the motor and cleaned the armature with WD40.
My troubles lie in step 2, where both motors are engaged and the whole
generator is brought down to cruising speed. Step 2 in my unit just brings
down the whole generator. >>
It's the run switch.
Harry
Peter D Abrams
Dave Campbell wrote:
> I'm still working with this B3 daily. Being an electronic tech, I'm sure
> the start/run circuits are good. When the start switch is on, the start
> motor engages and brings everything up to a good speed. Everything sounds
> smooth. When the run switch is applied, the 250 ohm resistor is definity
> switched in series with the start motor. The resistor drops 65 Vac and gets
> warm. Which means the start motor receives half voltage, which means the
> motor should run at half speed.
No. That's not the way it works. The start motor is an induction hysteresis
(old turntable/window fan/Leslie speaker twirly thing) squirrel cage motor.
Frequency is just as important in these motors as is Voltage and Current. The
motor wants to run a a given RPM based on it's incoming frequency. If all is
well, if you have the rated voltage available at the desired current, it will
run just fine. The more load, the more current the motor will draw. Not a
problem. But, if you limit the available current via a dropping resistor (say,
oh, 250 ohms for the 117V hammond) The speed will not drop to 1/2 speed because
the voltage was halved.
It doesn't work that way. The motor wants to synchronize to the line
frequency, and wants the voltage to be up where it's useful,and will draw enough
current to make it so. If the motor is spinning at the desired fr, then the
current is x. If you apply some kind of physical resistance to the rotation, the
motor will draw more current. A motor that draws 3/10's of an amp that is wired
to a 20 amp house circuit is not going to show much of a drop in voltage, so the
current will get larger as more mechanical load is applied to the mechanism. The
resistance stays the same in the motor's field coil, but because of the extra
load, it draws more current. The available voltage stays the same, but because
the series resistor is sopping up a portion of the total load, the voltage
across the motor drops.
Ohm's Law.
So. Hammond puts a TG start motor in there, and gears it to be ~10% faster
than the synchro motor wants to run at. So far, so good. You hold the start
switch, it runs the start motor to it's target.
Next, you hit the Run switch, still holding the start switch. It puts 250
ohms into the start motor circuit. Everything else is equal, and once again,
Ohm's law kicks in again. The current is (pretty much) the same, the frequency
is the same, but guess what? The available voltage is now shared with the
resistor! The motor can't run at the designed resonant freq, and with the load
of the TG, can't get enough voltage through the resistor to keep thing at fr.
So. It slows down. Magic.
Like everybody else said. Add oil. Check all of the components separately
for friction problems, if you can. A lot of people could diagnose this thing in
person just by rocking the main shaft back and forth. You'll have to trust your
instincts on this one.
As for trying to tach it, The organ itself is the best way to do this!
Jumper the preamp to be on all the time, and then listen to it as you kick the
start switch. Example - if a pressed down key never gets to it's frequency, then
you have a bad start motor (hardly likely) or a dragged down generator chain.
The deeper you dive into it, the more you'll learn. Good luck, and keep us
posted.
later,
pda
Dave Campbell
60hz, but it's been about 25 years since my AC electronics. Still, the
purpose of the resistor is to slow the motor down, and mine is doing that.
Which proves the start circuit. If the gear is held off so the start motor
can not engage, and the run switch is toggled. The start motor gives 2
speeds, which proves the start motor. so it appears to be pure load issue.
The shaft from to spring mech to the sync motor floats freely from left to
right. Is that significant? Of course, when run is engaged, it will not.
Which proves the run motor. Right?
Anyway, still oiling.
"Peter D Abrams" <pab...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:3A78E64F...@bellsouth.net...
Christoph Kukulies
> I'm still working with this B3 daily. Being an electronic tech, I'm sure
> the start/run circuits are good. When the start switch is on, the start
> motor engages and brings everything up to a good speed. Everything sounds
> smooth. When the run switch is applied, the 250 ohm resistor is definity
> switched in series with the start motor. The resistor drops 65 Vac and gets
> warm. Which means the start motor receives half voltage, which means the
No, not half speed. Just less current/torque.
> in this unit, the whole mech slows down to nothing. I never get half speed.
> So... either the start motor is weak and can't handle the load at half, or
> the load is greater than normal. For now I will continue to add oil and run
> the start motor as much as I can. All the oil wicks appear to be intact and
> I don't see any signs of oil run-off.
How does turning the generator axis by hand feel? Does it stop immediately or
does it run out smoothly?
If you have some stopped tonewheels (by magnets having been pushed by accident)
this could cause the sync motor to run out of sync and stop.
Another test: switch on only the run switch. Turn the flywheel a little
bit by hand. Do you feel mechanical resistance or hum (this means
that current is flowing through the run motor).
If the latter is not the case, you may have a wire broken/loos solder joint
in the Run switch circuitry.
--
Chris Christoph P. U. Kukulies ku...@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de
"The Hammond Tonewheel Organ - God's harmonica"
http://blues.physik.rwth-aachen.de/hammond.html
Magnus Enorson
> It's the run switch.
> Harry
I agree totally with Harry.
Make sure that the switch you use as a replacement is of the
correct type... it needs to be a DPDT, because one leg has to be
open while the other is closed and vice versa. The old standard
Hammond switch isn't just a plain old double pole switch.
/Magnus
Magnus Enorson
> Jumper the preamp to be on all the time, and then listen to it as you
> kick the start switch.
... and don't get terrified about all the hum you'll hear LOL
/Magnus
Bull...@aol.com
magnus....@home.se writes:
<<
Make sure that the switch you use as a replacement is of the
correct type ... it needs to be a DPDT, because one leg has to be
open while the other is closed and vice versa. The old standard
Hammond switch isn't just a plain old double pole switch.
/Magnus >>
The last switch I replaced I used a DPDT from the Electronic supply house
instead of a "Hammond" run switch, total cost = $2.00, and it works like a
charm, I also replace the start switches for about $.50.
Harry
suregold
I don't know if this was mentioned....BUT you may want to check the AC
Terminal strip on the generator for a cold or broken connection. The run
switch wire terminates, moving the instrument can cause a crack in the
solder joint and cause excessive draw?? Just a thought.
Cork H
>
> If the latter is not the case, you may have a wire broken/loos solder
joint
> in the Run switch circuitry.
>
>
> --
> Chris Christoph P. U. Kukulies ku...@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de
> "The Hammond Tonewheel Organ - God's harmonica"
> http://blues.physik.rwth-aachen.de/hammond.html
suregold
with the start switch and used a alligator jumper on the terminal block
after the start motor brought the organ to overspeed. (1st and 3rd terminal
from the rear I believe, you'd have to trace the run switch color code) just
clip one side on the strip and clip on the other, the same as throwing the
run switch.
Cork H
Dave Campbell
and remember where she came from. She was purchased brand new right off the
showroom floor in '72. I didn't meet her until '78. At that time all I
could think of was, why are we hauling this accent POS around? Why can't we
get sometime smaller? Even though she had an Anvil case, with wheels!
Being the soundman, I couldn't appreciate the value for the effort. Hauling
her in and out from gig to gig, only 2 strong, sometimes ganging up with 4
or even 6. I remember once she took a dive right off a truck, right on her
back, and still she performed that night. (maybe that has sometime to do
with the start problem)
I remember how she used to suck up all my headroom (we ran her direct)
She was finally replaced.
Tonight, after listening to some old 4 tracks, I long for the grind...the
percussion. She needs to be a part of our latest ventures. We have open
tracks just waiting to be filled. The Triton or the Vintage Keys or the B4
just can't do it.
Sorry for rambling, just wanted to add some of the sentimental value I have,
and we all possess for this electro-mechanical wonder we call the Hammond.
Dave Campbell
but still ran sluggish, and wouldn't stay running. We knew the motors and
circuits were good, but the TG just seemed to be gummy. Here's what finally
made her start. A hairdryer. We slowly and gently waved a hairdryer across
the whole generator. We just raised the temperature slightly above ambient,
and she started right up. If it had been summer, we probably wouldn't have
had so much trouble.
All-in-all, its in pretty good shape. The scanner seems to work. The
percussion, drawbars, and presets all work too. I have a few freqs missing,
but I know I have some solder work down at the harness.
I appreciate all the suggestions,
Thanks Guys
And now for the next project.... We have a 122 that has been gutted. No
amp, no speaker, no driver. All it has are the rotor, drum, and motors.
Daniel Lopez-Ferreiro
I saw this post of yours, and thought @id ask you these questions...
hope you dont mind
daniel
I have recently acquired a Model A from 1937. It has had the pedals
chopped off, along with the legs, and now stands on a metal frame. I got
an old 122 with it, which has been painted red and white back in the 60's.
Now, the thing itself sounds great. Really authentic old sound. Probably
better than my a-100. However, there are a few problems. The first is
the starting. The start motor runs, but the organ generally just spins
down again to a stop. It started OK in the house where I bought it, but
not so now. I have oiled it and sprayed WD-40 on the bearings etc. I can
make it start sometimes by turning on a fan heater in the back and running
the start motor and run motor for ages. I did this last night, and left
the run motor on all night. It was still going this morning, but would not
restart after being turned off.
Another thing. A few tones are missing. I have proved it is the tones
not the keys, because it shows up in different octaves with different
drawbars. What is this likely to be? Bad wiring? Faulty capacitors?
Worse?
The case itself is rather rickety, but I think I can sort that out myself.
I was hoping to rewire the pedals back up, via a 'D'-plug or some multiway
connector to allow removal for transport. Anyone got a wiring diagram or
any advice/ideas on this? I have the full pedalboard and the contact box
etc.
May thanks in advance for help/advice
Daniel
P.S. I am in the UK - east midlands (07930) 57 58 55
Hal Davis
>
I have oiled it and sprayed WD-40 on the bearings etc.
I may have said this before but what I have been informed is that WD-40
is a Penetrant. It is NOT a lubricant. It often temporarily loosens up
lubricant that has hardened and so give the effect of lubricating but
that effect is usually short lived.
It was recommended to me that following the application of a penetrant
such as WD-40, or Liquid Wrench, that a cleaning and lubrication of the
moving parts be done in order to prevent further problems, using a
proper lubricant for this purpose.
FWIW
Hal