M3 direct out?????
Bill Hatcher
an M3?? If anyone has a schematic that they can share showing where
to tap in I would appreciate it.
From what I understand, the line out from an M3 will have to be 2
conductor and not balanced as the B3 is. Correct??
If this line level output is not feasible, would I then need to take a
jumper off the speaker and head to an L pad to reduce the level down
to line level?
MANY thanks for the info.
Tim Stoel
For schematics try www.geocities.com/hammond_rat.
There is a good deal of Hammond schematics there.
For my L-100, I made a box and it is wired like this
speaker
input>--------%%%%%%%--------/\/\/\/\/\/------>line
out
| 10k ohm
#44 bulb | 1/2 watt
|
*
* 10 ohm, 5 watt
*
*
|
|
|
speaker | line
out
ground>--------------------------------------->ground
The bulb acts as a compressor, and the rest is an
L-pad network. Either build it into the organ or put
it in a little project box from Radio Shack. WARNING:
DO NOT WIRE IT ACROSS THE WIRES THAT FEED THE COIL FOR
THE MAGNET IF IT IS NOT PM! Use it with most any
amplifier / organ as a cheap and dirty direct box.
Also works for recording guitar amps without a mic.
Tim Stoel
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Robert Kennedy
>
> speaker
> input>--------%%%%%%%--------/\/\/\/\/\/------>line
> out
> | 10k ohm
> #44 bulb | 1/2 watt
> |
> *
> * 10 ohm, 5 watt
> *
> *
> |
> |
> |
> speaker | line
> out
> ground>--------------------------------------->ground
>
> The bulb acts as a compressor, and the rest is an
> L-pad network.
Why do you want more compression than you already get from the organ
amp?
And why use a pad network with such a low input impedance? Are you
using this network _in place of_ the built-in speaker, or _in addition
to_ the built-in speaker? I have other questions, too, about the
design rationale of that network. Can you briefly explain why you
chose to make it as you did? I'm a EE, so you don't have to explain
basics.
Thanks!
-- Robert
Steve Jackson
tapping off the preamp output (terminal G to ground) with a ~10:1 voltage
divider comprised of a 10kOhm series and 1kOhm shunt. It works quite well.
BTW Robert, it is "I am AN EE" not "I am A EE." Now I see where we
electrical engineers get our reputation for not being able to spell. ;-)
Regards,
Steve Jackson
(AN EE)
Robert Kennedy
> tapping off the preamp output (terminal G to ground) with a ~10:1 voltage
> divider comprised of a 10kOhm series and 1kOhm shunt. It works
> quite well.
You can do the same sort of voltage divider trick even on the speaker
terminals.
My M3 has a Hammond add-on reverb kit in it, and the separate amp that
drives the reverb unit takes its signal straight from the speaker
terminals. I tapped those terminals for a line out with a 100K pot in
a divider configuration with the wiper as the hot output. It works
great.
> BTW Robert, it is "I am AN EE" not "I am A EE." Now I see where we
> electrical engineers get our reputation for not being able to spell.
> ;-)
Ouch. Off corse your correct. But it ain't just us EE-type peepol. In
collidge I tuk sike and art histerry classes with inglish magers who
spelled worser then me.
Tim Stoel
up to the speaker terminals while the speakers are
hooked up. The L-100 is a bit more difficult to get
to the preamp level signal without ripping things
apart, and this was a cheap and dirty fix, and this
also makes a VERY versatile box because you can use it
on other amps. I have had excellent success with this
design. A lot more overdrive is available (if OD is
your thing) than from a pre out as well. Downfall of
this is that you hear more gain structure noise, but
the board doesn't have to have it's gain way ip, and
this is good if you have a cheap board like a Peavey
Unity 1000 or a Mackie CR1604 or SR24-4 or something
like that.
Tim
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Dan ''Spiffy'' Neuman
> tapping off the preamp output (terminal G to ground) with a ~10:1 voltage
> divider comprised of a 10kOhm series and 1kOhm shunt. It works quite well.
I took one straight off the G and ground. Works well. With Gs you dont need a
padding or a divider as long as the amp you're running to has an input level
control
peace
dan
Dan ''Spiffy'' Neuman
> drives the reverb unit takes its signal straight from the speaker
> terminals. I tapped those terminals for a line out with a 100K pot in
> a divider configuration with the wiper as the hot output. It works
> great.
So you basically attached the two "outer terminals" (I forget what they're
called) of the pot to the speaker terminals and used the wiper as the output?
Did you have a dummy load in place of the organ speaker?
I did the same thing with a 5k pot, but I also had a 1k resistor in series with
the whole mess.
Robert Kennedy
> up to the speaker terminals while the speakers are
> hooked up. The L-100 is a bit more difficult to get
> to the preamp level signal without ripping things
> apart, and this was a cheap and dirty fix, and this
> also makes a VERY versatile box because you can use it
> on other amps.
All those things explain why you would want to connect to the speaker
terminals. That's fine. I do the same thing on my M3. But my question
was really a different one: Given that you want to connect to the
speaker terminals, why did you design the circuit as you did? What are
the design criteria you were trying to meet? I wonder why you wanted
your pad circuit to soak significant power out of the speaker, for
example. And why did you want it to contain the bulb compressor?
-- Robert
Robert Kennedy
> > drives the reverb unit takes its signal straight from the speaker
> > terminals. I tapped those terminals for a line out with a 100K pot in
> > a divider configuration with the wiper as the hot output. It works
> > great.
> So you basically attached the two "outer terminals" (I forget what they're
> called) of the pot to the speaker terminals and used the wiper as
> the output?
Exactly.
> Did you have a dummy load in place of the organ speaker?
No, I left the organ speaker connected. It's a useful part of my
monitor sound; it was doing no harm. If I had disconnected it, I would
probably have needed some kind of dummy load in its place.
> I did the same thing with a 5k pot, but I also had a 1k resistor in
> series with the whole mess.
That should work fine. The 1k resistor in series is a smart idea; its
job is to provide short-circuit protection for when you accidently
short the output jack's terminals together. I should probably add such
a resistor to my setup; I was just too lazy to do it when I first
hacked it together, and I haven't messed with it since.
When you use a resistive-only pad circuit like these, it seems to me
the component values shouldn't be critical.
Tim Stoel
quietly, your mixer gets a hotter signal, and when you
play loudly, it gets cut back more, reducing your
chances of clipping on a dramatic piece with a lot of
ups and downs. Those two resistors were used for two
reasons: 1. It fit my impedance and level
requirements. 2. It is what I had in the back room.
I am not an electrical engineer, just a psycho, which
sometimes can be just as helpful when working on
Hammonds.
Tim
> -- Robert
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Magnus Enorson
> The bulb compressor is so that when you are playing
> quietly, your mixer gets a hotter signal, and when you
> play loudly, it gets cut back more, reducing your
> chances of clipping on a dramatic piece with a lot of
> ups and downs.
I think we all understand the concept of compression :-) The
question here is: Why would you want to install a device that robs
you of the functionality of the expression pedal?
Seems to me that if someone pumps the pedal enough to clip on
some parts, while having problems getting heard at other times,
what that person needs to do is learn to _play_; not install a
compressor in the organ.
/Magnus
Tim Stoel
mixing board, a very costly repair job. Often times
between changing presets, volume levels change. I
like working on Hammonds, not mixing boards. You must
also remember I am into recording and I use the swell
pedal a lot in my playing and once you get all the
other instruments in the mix, you lose the quiet parts
and the loud parts are too loud. I don't like sitting
there having to watch my levels all the time while I
play. You also must remember that it is not a volume
pedal, but a swell pedal, which is a capacitor based
system, and you actually get different timbres at
different positions of the swell pedal. Also, to
properly record an organ the signal needs to be
compressed. I record digitally and don't care for
digital compressors that much, so if I get at least
some of my compression done before getting it to hard
disk, I get less noise (really!), less digital
compression artifacts, less compressor "pumping", and
an overall warmer sound. This system I use is simply a
matter of preference. If I were to invest in a nice
rack mount compressor, I wouldn't have the box
designed the way I do.
Tim
Tim
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Gary Allsebrook
Magnus Enorson
> You must
> also remember I am into recording and I use the swell
> pedal a lot in my playing and once you get all the
> other instruments in the mix, you lose the quiet parts
> and the loud parts are too loud. I don't like sitting
> there having to watch my levels all the time while I
> play.
Are you saying you record your Hammond dry? Line out straight
into the desk? If so, what kind of music do you record? I have, on
occation, used a line out as a complement to a Leslie signal, but
this has been thru a low-pass filter and some heavy compression
to get the bass to cut through better... but never dry as-is.
-baffled in Vänersborg,
Dan ''Spiffy'' Neuman
Magnus Enorson wrote:
> Tim Stoel wrote:
>
> > The bulb compressor is so that when you are playing
> > quietly, your mixer gets a hotter signal, and when you
> > play loudly, it gets cut back more, reducing your
> > chances of clipping on a dramatic piece with a lot of
> > ups and downs.
>
> I think we all understand the concept of compression :-) The
> question here is: Why would you want to install a device that robs
> you of the functionality of the expression pedal?
The compression circuit involved is not that dramatic. Actually I dont notice
a huge change in the amount of expression when I bypass the lightbulb in that
circuit. The problem that does occur is, when you're holding down a high note
or two and playing bass, the high note(s) cannot be heard over the bass, due
to the compression. This only occurs when playing at high volume levels, but
it is annoying
My organs have a foot-operated bypass switch for the bulb, so I can easily
dial in compression when I want it. That same circuit also works fine without
the bulb (remember I have a 5k pot across the 1/4" output.
Additionally, I've always wondered, from that schematic-- why have the load
resistor AFTER the bulb?
peace
dan
Jeff Dairiki
>resistor AFTER the bulb?
Without the load resistor, the bulb will never get enough juice to light
(so it won't do any compressing).
That said, I think that building the light-bulb compression into line-out
circuits is largely a red herring. My guess is that the source of its
popularity is that it is listed in "Beauty in the B" as the way to do it.
(And "Beauty in the B", as has been noted here before, is hardly an
authoritative reference on anything.)
Hammond reverbs (in M-3/100's and A-100's) use light-bulb compression
in the drive circuitry. There it makes sense, as the spring reverbs
do not have much headroom. (Too much drive makes for whacky-clunky
sounds --- too little drive and recovery preamp noise becomes
(even more of) an issue.)
Robert Kennedy
> the load resistor AFTER the bulb?
Because the bulb needs fairly high current pulled through it to do its
compression thing. The filament needs to get hot. If the load resistor
were before the bulb, there would be nothing to draw significant
current through the bulb, so the bulb would just act like a wire. No
compression.
If it weren't for the desire to use the bulb for compression, there
would be no need for the honkin' 10-ohm power resistor. One could use
a much lighter load, like a 5k or 10k or 100k resistor instead.
-- Robert
suregold
dumb ass
errors. What is to be expected the folks that bring you from Key Rag
Magazine.
Cork H
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Dairiki" <dai...@dairiki.org>
To: <ham...@zeni.net>
Cc: "Dan ''Spiffy'' Neuman" <mtne...@mailbag.com>
Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 1:13 PM
Subject: Re: [HAM] M3 direct out / new schematics source
. My guess is that the source of its
> popularity is that it is listed in "Beauty in the B" as the way to do it.
> (And "Beauty in the B", as has been noted here before, is hardly an
> authoritative reference on anything.)>
Desert Shark Records
> Also, to properly record an organ the signal needs to be compressed.
I have recorded or been recorded on Hammonds on numerous occasions both in
my home studio and in professional rooms. I have never personally seen any
one compress a Hammond to tape. IMHO compressing a instrument that's whole
thing is dynamics is counter productive. The Leslie is dynamic, the vibrato,
the expression pedal...why would you smash it? If your loosing the organ in
the mix, may I suggest you try notching the instruments with an eq so that
each has its prominent place in the field with as little overlap into the
others as possible.
Also if your currently taking a direct line to the board try this. Close mic
your spinet speaker with a 57 type mic (1" off axis and 3"to 4" from baffle)
and a condenser type at the back of the organ cab a foot or two out. I've
had great results this way and you don't need expensive mics or outboard
gear. Again this is just my opinion and if you like what your hearing with
what your using then that's what counts.
In your service,
Desertshark
Stan Curtis
> terminals.
>
> My M3 has a Hammond add-on reverb kit in it, and the separate amp that
> drives the reverb unit takes its signal straight from the speaker
> terminals. I tapped those terminals for a line out with a 100K pot in
> a divider configuration with the wiper as the hot output. It works
> great.
>
to put a 1mFd 300v mylar capacitor in series with the output. This often
protected the guitar amp head unit (or whatever) from the failure of the
leaky Hammond power transformers. Such leakage was found quite often in our
240 volt part of the world.
Stan