Flexible Piezo question...
Benj
pickups to resonator guitars. In rooting around the net, I came upon
these quite inexpensive Piezo film pickups.
http://www.windworld.com/products/msipu.htm
It sure seems to me that gluing them to a cone or biscuit might
produce a reasonably decent sound and they are quite inexpensive (See
Pick up the World which I have used and are excellent but expensive).
My Johnson biscuit resonator, for example, was electrified by adding a
neck magnetic pickup and a ceramic piezo element out of a Radio Shack
buzzer ($ 0.89) glued to the biscuit. It works quite nicely. But I'm
wondering if the flex film might improve the tone?
My question is has anyone here fooled around with these things and
what did you find out using them as pickups?
Tony Done
This is the third time I have tried posting a reply, so probably all
three will arrive at the same time and I will look like a twit:
Thanks for the link. It looks well worth a try if you are
experimenting with
piezos.
The piezo cable is interesting stuff. It was originally designed to
make
security lines, and I did some checking on a (the?) firm that makes
it. The
best looking one was not for sale in instrument applications due to a
prior
exclusive contract - I bet it was Highlander. I did try a different
piece
that I got from another source (my music store mate), and it worked
very
well as a UST in several applications, less of that ugly quack than
many
USTs. One place it worked successfully was between the saddle and the
biscuit in a reso. I have since gone away from piezos, but I think
that was
the best I tried, using it in combination with a magnetic and active
tone
control/blender. However output is low, so it needs a preamp and may
be
difficult to blend passively with a higher output source like a
magnetic.
The K&K contact pickups on the same site are also well regarded by
flattop
players, and I also like the Schatten bugs from Stewmac:
Tony D
Tony Done
"Benj" <bja...@iwaynet.net> wrote in message
news:e853153a-7203-4af0...@d36g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
I posted this reply ages ago, but it seems to have got lost in cyber space,
so I'm trying again:
Benj
> The piezo cable is interesting stuff. It was originally designed to make
> security lines, and I did some checking on a (the?) firm that makes it. The
> best looking one was not for sale in instrument applications due to a prior
> exclusive contract - I bet it was Highlander. I did try a different piece
> that I got from another source (my music store mate), and it worked very
> well as a UST in several applications, less of that ugly quack than many
> USTs. One place it worked successfully was between the saddle and the
> biscuit in a reso.
I was wondering about that stuff. I've got a few USTs and they are the
standard sort of thing. I'm not particularly impressed with the tone
of them. On the other hand while the cable looked interesting I was
sort of afraid that it'd have very low output. Right now I'm thinking
of sending off an order to get a few of each of these various sizes.
Right now the new Dean uses a ceramic piezo that looks like a thick
washer that is under the biscuit screw. It's not too bad, tone-wise,
but could use some improvement. My Johnson just has a Radio Shack
Piezo buzzer element (ceramic element glued to a brass disk) that I
glued to the biscuit. It has plenty of output to match the magnetic,
but as you might figure tone leaves a bit to be desired. Hence some of
my interest in these experiments. Also I'd like to add pickups to my
Tricone and there I'm thinking that the cable under the saddle might
be an answer (along with your no-drill magnet pickup idea).
> I have since gone away from piezos, but I think that was
> the best I tried, using it in combination with a magnetic and active tone
> control/blender. However output is low, so it needs a preamp and may be
> difficult to blend passively with a higher output source like a magnetic.
What do you do instead of Piezo? Are you just now going acoustic and
mics? I found that magnetic alone doesn't quite do it because it
doesn't seem to pickup that nice resonator reverby tone like the Piezo
does. I did play with some flexible pickups (for drums not guitars) a
while back from "pickup the world"
http://www.pick-uptheworld.com/
They are excellent and great sounding pickups but not cheap. Hence my
interest in the low cost versions. The hope is that even on the cheap
the flexible film will provide a much cleaner sound than the more
standard ceramic pickups.
Tony Done
I'm using magnetic pickups. One reso(Estralita) has a Schatten bug on
the cone that I can access via a stereo lead, but I don't use it. This
recording was done by line out from the amp IIRC, a Fender Blues
Deluxe:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_songInfo.cfm?bandID=784456&songID=6719048
It is my old National style O, with the pickup under the coverplate
and RE buttons on top, I think I have described it here before. The
whole thing is non-invasive and fully reversible. Here's some pics:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/done_family/
There is also a pic of the Esralita, which has a similar setup but
uses ceramic buttons. Both seem to work well.
I bought a PUTW #27 for one of my flattops, but succeeded in wrecking
it before I got a sound I liked, so I have never gone back to them.
Tony D
Benj
> I'm using magnetic pickups. One reso(Estralita) has a Schatten bug on
> the cone that I can access via a stereo lead, but I don't use it. This
> recording was done by line out from the amp IIRC, a Fender Blues
> Deluxe:
>
> http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_songInfo.cfm?bandID=784456&songI...
This is a great recording. Very balanced and clean and clear! And it
has a nice reso sound coming from just a magnetic pickup! I compared
to some of my guitars and noticed a couple of things. One is that on
my guitars with magnetic only I have to boost the highs a lot to get
balance and the tone of the reso cone is pretty much gone. Also I get
very little string noise while you seem to have a lot. With the piezo
added the string noise increases, the cone tone starts to become very
obvious and the EQ can have the high end dropped back to more normal
levels. Of course my magnetic pickup is way up at the neck rather than
under the cone cover as yours is. That probably contributes to the
loss of magnetic highs. But I have been quite satisfied with the tone
of this by using the piezo for highs and the magnetic for the low
strings.
Now my new Gold Dean with only the lipstick pickup sounds MUCH more
like yours. Lots of strong highs and great tone. But in this case the
piezo doesn't work well. I suspect there are gain and impedance issues
here. This is part of the reason for film transducer experiments.
Clearly it needs some work, though it could get by as you do with just
the magnetic pickup.
My spider Brownsville (wood) magnetic sounds much like your recording
and the pickup (it's an old humbucker off of some Ibanez I got at a
guitar show) is pretty balanced and clean. But with magnetic only the
resonator tone is pretty much lost. On the other hand the piezo which
is an UST of some nameless Chinese type does brighten up things a lot
on individual notes and brings out the reso sound nice. But it really
sounds bad on chords. It has a distorted mushy sound that is nasty
(the guitar originally came with ONLY this piezo pickup which was
totally unacceptable). This was where, based on your comments, I began
to think about the coaxial piezo wire to perhaps tone down the mush!
IF I could cure the mush problem this would be a half way decent
guitar!
I can see that getting just the right tone out of a reso is not such a
simple thing! I've already been playing around quite a bit for some
time with these guitars and mostly I haven't yet got the tone you are
getting with your setup. Personally I like the harsher tone I get with
my metal Biscuit dual pickup setup, but I'd also like to have a guitar
wit the tone you are getting too!
> It is my old National style O, with the pickup under the coverplate
> and RE buttons on top, I think I have described it here before. The
> whole thing is non-invasive and fully reversible. Here's some pics:
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/done_family/
Yes, I saw these pics before and loved 'em! The "non-invasive"
magnetic really set me off, though it was a bit to late stop the
sawing and cutting I already did on the various guitars with pickups
so far. Once I start to get a handle on this, the big plan is to go
for broke and figure out what kind of pickup to install on the
tricone. But I really want to know what I'm doing before I get that
far!
Thanks for the great ideas and encouragement.
Tony Done
A couple of things:
The design of that pickup, with the coil and magnets mounted on the
the coverplate make it very microphonic, that is where the reso sound
is coming from. I was looking for a simple reversible system, and this
worked a lot better than I expected - serendipity. The coils in mine
are the two halves of a hot humbucker with alnico slugs as opposed to
a bar magnet. I think a cheap strat pickup would work OK, the kind
with a plastic bobbin and alnico sliugs. part of the reason that
pickups mounted at the end of the fretboard sound less "acoustic" is
because they are near the midpoint of the strings and don't pick up as
many overtones, the same as the neck pickup on an electric.
Mounting pickups on a tricone is tricky. After a lot of head
scratching I figured that the only thing that would fit properly on
mine is a strat style (or a coil from a humbucker) mounted near the
edge of the coverplate. - The space on the coverplate in very limited
due to the T bridge and its cover, and the cones themselves. On mine
there is no space on the body because the fretboard extends close to
the soundwell, but it might be possible to find space there if the
fretboard is shorter. However, a thing to watch for there is that in
the traditional design the tenon stick runs from the neck to the back
of the guitar. If it is well made, it will come up under the fretboard
extension so that there is virtually no space under the guitar top. -
You would have to cut a big notch in the tenon to make space for for a
pickup. That Flickr site shows how I did mine. The pickup mounting
plate is brass, and I had it nickel plated to match the guitar, but I
think a piece of suitable plastic would look OK. It sounds reso-like,
but not to the same extent as the single cones, and this is partly due
to the guitar being very smooth sounding anyway.
Tony D
Benj
> A couple of things:
>
> The design of that pickup, with the coil and magnets mounted on the
> the coverplate make it very microphonic, that is where the reso sound
> is coming from. I was looking for a simple reversible system, and this
> worked a lot better than I expected - serendipity. The coils in mine
> are the two halves of a hot humbucker with alnico slugs as opposed to
> a bar magnet. I think a cheap strat pickup would work OK, the kind
> with a plastic bobbin and alnico sliugs. part of the reason that
> pickups mounted at the end of the fretboard sound less "acoustic" is
> because they are near the midpoint of the strings and don't pick up as
> many overtones, the same as the neck pickup on an electric.
Ah yes, That does solve the mystery!
> Mounting pickups on a tricone is tricky. After a lot of head
> scratching I figured that the only thing that would fit properly on
> mine is a strat style (or a coil from a humbucker) mounted near the
> edge of the coverplate. - The space on the coverplate in very limited
> due to the T bridge and its cover, and the cones themselves. On mine
> there is no space on the body because the fretboard extends close to
> the soundwell, but it might be possible to find space there if the
> fretboard is shorter. However, a thing to watch for there is that in
> the traditional design the tenon stick runs from the neck to the back
> of the guitar. If it is well made, it will come up under the fretboard
> extension so that there is virtually no space under the guitar top. -
> You would have to cut a big notch in the tenon to make space for for a
> pickup. That Flickr site shows how I did mine. The pickup mounting
> plate is brass, and I had it nickel plated to match the guitar, but I
> think a piece of suitable plastic would look OK. It sounds reso-like,
> but not to the same extent as the single cones, and this is partly due
> to the guitar being very smooth sounding anyway.
I will have to study your picture closer. The Tricone is a larger
problem and I'd like to have some confidence in what I"m doing to it
before I make any mistakes. And I might mention that a while back I
bought a bunch of tiny electret microphones (about 1/4inch in
diameter) that are reported to have excellent sound. I also want to
experiment with mounting one or more in various places inside the
guitar to see how that sounds too.
steve haines
They are usually fiddling with the optimum place to stick 1 or 2 piezo
's in there boxes. Usually one under the bridge or brisket seams to be
one of the best choices to stick the piezo. A dab of putty over the top
of the piezo can dampen out unwanted sounds. I think piezo's have a
slightly base sound to them. Here is an interesting little pree amp that
I found on the internet that might help someone out.
http://www.guitarfuel.com/Amplifier_Circuits.php
As for magnetic pickups the only advise I have is to listen to the
characteristics of your resonator then listen to a lot of different
pickups and educate your ear before making a decision to merry
up a pickup to your guitar.
Benj
> The cigar box guitar crowd uses a lot of piezo's on there instruments .
> They are usually fiddling with the optimum place to stick 1 or 2 piezo
> 's in there boxes. Usually one under the bridge or brisket seams to be
> one of the best choices to stick the piezo. A dab of putty over the top
> of the piezo can dampen out unwanted sounds. I think piezo's have a
> slightly base sound to them. Here is an interesting little pree amp that
> I found on the internet that might help someone out.http://www.guitarfuel.com/Amplifier_Circuits.php
I bought a bunch of flex pickups from the site I listed to experiment
with. They come in three sizes. the small ones are very cheap but
tiny. The middle size seems perfect, and the largest seems too large
(it's really long). My plan is to experiment with the smallest ones
as drum triggers (well actually not "drums" but to use my DM-5 drum
brain to build an advanced "porch board". The idea would be to have
several piezo triggers on the board triggering a variety of percussive
sounds rather than just the standard analog "thump".) Then try the
middle size as guitar pickups. I have experimented with flexible
"Pickup the world" pickups and they are excellent...but expensive.
These are DIRT cheap but have a disadvantage of not being shielded
from hum on one side. In a metal reso this is no problem. In a wood
body it is. I may get some conductive paint and coat the "hot" side
the way "Pickup the World" does with theirs and see how that works.
My experience is the opposite of yours. My piezos (radioshack buzzer
ceramics...haven't tried the flex ones yet) seem to give you lots of
brilliant highs but aren't much on the lows. My magnetic pickups (in
my case I've been using vintage D'armond Silvertone pickups I REALLY
like) tend to bring out the bass just great but tend to make the highs
sound too much like an electric guitar and loose the reso tone. Hence
my tone is a mix of both where piezo level sort of sets the amount of
"bite" you give to the slide or high string solos.
I haven't built anything yet beyond checking the pickups for hum
levels (yes there is some when they are unsheilded). But they do seem
to be quite promising to me!
> As for magnetic pickups the only advise I have is to listen to the
> characteristics of your resonator then listen to a lot of different
> pickups and educate your ear before making a decision to merry
> up a pickup to your guitar.
The problem of course is that to listen to a pickup to try it you
actually have to somehow install it on the guitar in question. So far
I've been using the vintage D'armond pickups which to me work very
well. I also have a dean reso with a lipstick pickup which is OK but
not as nice as the vintage jobbies though very similar in sound. and
finally My wood body has a "recycled" humbucker "recycled" off an
Epiphone LP. Like you say, you have to listen to these pickups. This
one did not go well with the resonator tone in my opinion. It's not so
bad I have to rip it out, but it's not optimum either! The other
humbucker (unknown brand) I tried before I installed it was FAR worse!
Lucky I didn't go with that one!
My next big effort, though is to work with the tricone to try to
duplicate what Tony did to his. I like the tone of that!
And Oh. I also bought a length of that piezo coax cable to try as an
under the saddle pickup. I've not had a very good sound with that type
and I've had a couple develop loose connections which I'm thinking the
piezo cable might fix although the output level may be low.