Kirk Talley, the latest
Bolorang
noticed he planned to sing this past weekend at a church and has a
couple others planned. If I read the post right (it was very long) he
is also going to be doing some sales work. He did not say what he
would be selling. He mentioned he is still seeking counsel and has
requested prayer. Just wondering if anyone had any thoughts on his
apparent limited return to singing.
Greg Taylor
home church decided to have him in to sing 3 songs as a show of love and
support for him. Another church somewhere has offered him a booking on
the same vein. He also stated he had two counseling sessions scheduled
today (Thursday) and tomorrow. I personally don't have a problem with
these isolated occasions because these congregations appear to have an
understanding of Kirk's situation and are taking him given that. This
helps keep Kirk accountable (and humble I'm sure).
DanLemke
limit on such things as repentance and restoration. I continue to pray that
he is getting the help he needs, and that those who are spiritual would help
restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering ourselves, lest we
also be tempted. He will have a long hard road to travel, no matter how he
takes it. I do not envy his position today.
--
"Don't just make a statement; make a difference."
"Greg Taylor" <gta...@umd.umich.edu> wrote in message
news:LIRWb.1976$Nz2....@news.itd.umich.edu...
Just Allan
<gta...@umd.umich.edu> wrote:
>My impression is that Kirk is not actively pursuing new bookings but his
>home church decided to have him in to sing 3 songs as a show of love and
>support for him. Another church somewhere has offered him a booking on
>the same vein. He also stated he had two counseling sessions scheduled
>today (Thursday) and tomorrow. I personally don't have a problem with
>these isolated occasions because these congregations appear to have an
>understanding of Kirk's situation and are taking him given that. This
>helps keep Kirk accountable (and humble I'm sure).
Good points - if it was me in the situation though, I'd prefer they
didn't allow me to sing at all. The continuance of his success
before, despite knowing himself he was in sin, probably contributed to
not overcoming it in the first place. (A smoker who claims he's not a
smoker anymore because he quit a week ago hasn't yet proven he's a
non-smoker.)
It's their choice though - no one else's.
CJB
"DanLemke" <Danl...@ameritech.net> wrote in message
news:McTWb.2099$t16.1...@newssvr28.news.prodigy.com...
> It would be so much like mankind (yes, me too) to try to establish a time
> limit on such things as repentance and restoration.
I'm trying to understand exactly what the meaning and intent of this
sentence is. I gather that you're expressing that establishing any type of
time limitation would be bad since you state that it would be a function of
the human nature which Christians consider to be sinful. If that's not your
intent, correct me.
I don't desire a debate on this issue, but I'd like to point out something
Biblical that may be relevant. Those in the Bible who were ministers all
went through a training period. In fact, it's a demand of a minister that
he be, "Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the
condemnation of the devil. 1 Timothy 3:6"
The disciples all went through a period of training before the Lord sent
them out to preach. Paul had 3 years of training before ministering. Even
Jesus was 30 before he started his earthly ministry.
While I would be averse to stating a definite period of time on this issue,
I believe the principle exists that one should be proven before he attempts
to minister. I don't think that's a function of "human nature;" I think
it's a Biblical principle.
Let me state that I was pleased when Mr. Talley denounced his actions as
sin. Facing facts as God sees them is the first step of repentance. I have
prayed for him and his spiritual condition.
CJ
Bolorang
wrote:
I guess I am just wondering why Kirk Talley is starting to sing again
(even if it is limited,) this soon after such a huge revelation
concerning his life. It seems to me that he has not settled any
issues. For example, is he going to live as a gay man and sing
Southern Gospel music? I don't believe most people that listen to
Southern Gospel are ready to accept a gay artist. It might have
occurred in the past, but I believe his troubles have been the most
public.
I think the only way he will gain widespread acceptance is to denounce
the lifestyle. I'm not sure he can. I don't know what it is like to
have the type of feelings he has. I'm sure it is difficult,
especially, in the world of Southern Gospel Music singing in Christian
churches where most people aren't willing to accept a gay artist.
I believe he needs our prayers. He is truly one of the great
songwriters out there today and is a great tenor.
Steve
What difference does it make that he wants to sing? This man has been through
something that I hope none of us have to go through. We have no idea of the
private pain and suffering that he has been going through. If he wants to
sing... I say let him. He gets joy from it and brings joy to others who hear
him.
Personally I think this issue with Kirk has been beaten to death. How long
does a man have to be drug through the mud and have every move questioned by
others.
Lets not discuss this issue on here anymore. Lets move on to another topic.
Lets move on to any other topic that does not cause someone public hurt and
humiliation.
Thank You
KJCSmith1
>I guess I am just wondering why Kirk Talley is starting to sing again
>(even if it is limited,) this soon after such a huge revelation
>concerning his life. It seems to me that he has not settled any
>issues.
He struggled with the decision on whether to sing or not and almost turned
around and went back home before he got to church. As for settling issues,
have you talked to him??? He is seeking counseling and doing lots of praying
and seeking God's will I would think that is stepping the right way to "settle
issues".
>For example, is he going to live as a gay man and sing
>Southern Gospel music? I don't believe most people that listen to
>Southern Gospel are ready to accept a gay artist.
You do know that there are people who consider themselves gay but abstain (sp?)
from sex living that lifestyle. My best friends brother is gay is one who
doesn't practice the lifestyle. He said it is like a person who is an alcholic
it is a long road and have to be on guard at all times.
Bolorang
>Hey Bolorang...
>
>What difference does it make that he wants to sing? This man has been through
>something that I hope none of us have to go through. We have no idea of the
>private pain and suffering that he has been going through. If he wants to
>sing... I say let him. He gets joy from it and brings joy to others who hear
>him.
Did I say there was anything wrong with him singing? No I did not. I
just wondered why he was this soon after the revelation. I believe I
was very empathetic towards his situation. Why don't you read the
post before writing...I believe I complimented him as being a great
song writer and great tenor. I hope he can return to ministry
someday. I also commmented that I can't know what it is like to be in
his situation and said we need to pray for him.
>
>Personally I think this issue with Kirk has been beaten to death. How long
>does a man have to be drug through the mud and have every move questioned by
>others.
>
>Lets not discuss this issue on here anymore. Lets move on to another topic.
>Lets move on to any other topic that does not cause someone public hurt and
>humiliation.
And moving on, seems to be the standard in today's world. I'm sorry,
but I think before Kirk Talley is going to have to address the issue
of his sexuality if at some point he expects to go back into any form
of full time ministry in gospel music. If not, he should start
singing country or rock or whatever will fit his voice. The average
Southern Gospel crowd will want the issue addressed and your looking
through rose colored glasses if you believe otherwise.
>Thank You
....
Bolorang
>
>>I guess I am just wondering why Kirk Talley is starting to sing again
>>(even if it is limited,) this soon after such a huge revelation
>>concerning his life. It seems to me that he has not settled any
>>issues.
>
>
>He struggled with the decision on whether to sing or not and almost turned
>around and went back home before he got to church. As for settling issues,
>have you talked to him??? He is seeking counseling and doing lots of praying
>and seeking God's will I would think that is stepping the right way to "settle
>issues".
I'm not following your logic. How is his situation any different than
say a pastor who has an affair with a woman in his church and then a
month later is back preaching? I think the pastor has to repent and
slowly move back into ministry if that is his calling. He would have
to explain himself.
Look, I have no problem with him singing. His songs minister to me.
I'm just saying he will have to address the issue at some point. His
site indicates three times he is already out there singing and
ministering.
>
>>For example, is he going to live as a gay man and sing
>>Southern Gospel music? I don't believe most people that listen to
>>Southern Gospel are ready to accept a gay artist.
>
>You do know that there are people who consider themselves gay but abstain (sp?)
>from sex living that lifestyle. My best friends brother is gay is one who
>doesn't practice the lifestyle. He said it is like a person who is an alcholic
>it is a long road and have to be on guard at all times.
So what is your point. Your not addressing my question. Sure, if
Kirk Talley comes out and says he is gay and is going to abstain from
the lifestyle, people may be willing to bring him to their churches.
He has not done that yet. He is still in counseling.
DanLemke
certainly. I'll even applaud you for spelling it out so clearly in this
context. My point was that we (in our human nature) would like to have a
simple rule that says exactly how long would be appropriate in each case.
In Kirk's case, my suspicion is that most will think it's too soon (as
evidenced by others' further posts on this topic), but the fact is that no
one knows how long is long enough. Like so many other questions, this is
something that Kirk will need godly counsel to address, and he probably
won't get a hard and fast answer. But if one writer seems to think that a
month is not long enough for a pastor who had an affair, the question
becomes obvious: would six months do it, or six years? If there is no
"right" amount of time, then the expression "this soon after the revelation"
(used in another post) becomes rather indefinite. I suppose all I am saying
is that it is not an easy question.
--
"Don't just make a statement; make a difference."
"CJB" <sgm...@nospamexcite.com> wrote in message
news:TOTWb.14018$1S1....@nwrddc01.gnilink.net...
Steve
feel that we need to walk in someone elses shoes before we can truly understand
why they do the things they do. Also, like Dan stated ...is there a right or
wrong length of time? I think that is up to the individual. If the individual
can come to terms on things then we as the public should be able to also. In
closing....Jesus said we should forgive 70 times 7. Keep that in mind also
when someone does something that we think is wrong.
Bolorang
I agree, we can't know what Kirk Talley is going through. I'm not
saying it's wrong for these churches to invite him to sing. We should
pray for Kirk. His website indicates he has not giving up on singing
which leads me to believe he does plan a return to more singing at
some point. I am saying he will have to address the homosexuality
issue at home point if he plans to return to full time singing. I
don't know what length of time is a good time, but be serious here
folks, the guy admitted to trying to meet men on the internet. This
isn't Southern Alternative Gospel Music. He is in a ministry and the
homosexuality will be an issue if he plans on continuing a ministry.
He will have to say where he stands with that issue.
David Bruce Murray
> Biblical that may be relevant. Those in the Bible who were ministers all
> went through a training period. In fact, it's a demand of a minister that
> he be, "Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the
> condemnation of the devil. 1 Timothy 3:6"
That's a verse that doesn't get emphasized in many situations. I've seen
people jump right into the ministry who didn't know what they were doing.
It's a struggle for everyone when that happens.
At the same time, we shouldn't shush the novice. "Let no one despise thy
youth." We should hear them out and then help them as much as we possibly
can in their spiritual growth, using scripture for "doctrine, reproof, and
instruction."
--
David Bruce Murray / dbmu...@NOSPAMmailblocks.com
---Making hay while the sun shines---
Classical Music at: http://virtualvirtuoso.iuma.com
For all my reviews and more, visit: www.musicscribe.com
---"I know a pagan piano riff when I hear it." (Dr. Bobby Clark, 5/7/03)---
CJBrown
healing wounds, I think there are two different issues at stake. One is
obviously Mr. Talley's relationship with God. For a person to minister
spiritually, there must be a solid relationship with God, else they aren't
really able to "minister" in the true sense of the word. This is totally
within Mr. Talley's control. He alone can control his relationship with
God. We know God is willing to fellowship with every man; so the question
for each of us is whether or not we desire to be in good fellowship with
Him.
The next question is one that is entirely beyond Mr. Talley's control. It
is one that will have to be answered in the heart of everyone he attempts to
minister to in the coming years. Some people will be able to understand
God's forgiveness to Mr. Talley, but will be unable to accept him as capable
of ministering to them personally. I believe it's something along these
lines that Paul was expressing concern about when he wrote: "But I keep
under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I
have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. 1 Corinthians 9:27"
That verse could be applied to many different scenarios, and I don't think
Paul had homosexuality in mind when he wrote it. However, I do think it
could be applied in this situation. Mr. Talley has been attempting to
minister for these many years. However, in neglecting his own spiritual
condition, he may well have become a castaway in the minds of many. We know
that God will not cast him out, (John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me
shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.) but
that doesn't mean that Mr. Talley will have the same ability to minister
that he had before.
Evidently, there were at least a few Christians who had longstanding
misgivings about the Apostle Paul, even though his sins against the Lord and
the saints were before his salvation. I'm not equating Mr. Talley's sins to
Paul's, but simply pointing out that it's not unusual or unreasonable to
expect that some people will never be able to receive the ministering of Mr.
Talley, no matter how much time passes.
I wish him the best, and I'm sure if he's sincere in his repentance that the
Lord can use him in some way.
CJ
"DanLemke" <Danl...@ameritech.net> wrote in message
news:QOWWb.2130$t16.1...@newssvr28.news.prodigy.com...
CJB
"David Bruce Murray" <dbmu...@NOSPAM.mailblocks.com> wrote in message
news:vf6dnVXB6av...@pghconnect.com...
You're absolutely correct, of course. Training takes time; there's no
shortcut for time or substitute for training. Even in Elijah's day there
was a "School of the prophets." Too often today people attempting to enter
the ministry are cheated out of their training. Sure, most newly-called
ministers are gung-ho and don't want to waste any time. Perhaps they are
unaware that you waste no time when you pause to sharpen your axe.
I do believe a good portion of the blame lies with not the novice but the
older Christian. There is so often a dearth of Christian servants that a
novice will be easily overloaded with areas of ministry -- things that most
certainly need done, and that few are undertaking. Seeing a need and having
a burden are not synonymous with having a calling of God to meet that need
or carry that burden. What pastor doesn't sense the urgency of world
evangelism? Does that sensing of need and the subsequent burden it brings
mean that every pastor should quit and go to the mission fields?
The local church has the responsibility before God to train each generation
of leaders and workers in the Lord's service. Due to either ignorance or
abdication of responsibility, most local churches do very little training.
This despite the fact that training is a key element of the great
commission.
I also agree that we are to nurture the flock in ministry, not shut them up.
Just as David's trials and responses escalated as God trained him, we should
train people from lower levels of responsibilty to higher ones. That is not
to say that everyone will grow to be able to accept great responsibilty in
ministry, but I believe far more solid Christian workers would result from a
renewal of our local churches to this area of the ministry.
In relating this to SGM, one must first ask what SGM is. Is it ministry or
just entertainment for Christians. If it's only entertainment, then we need
not hold the entertainers to any higher standard than we would any other
"clean" entertainer. While a good number of singers of SGM have taken this
position, my experience with Christians who listen is that they think of SGM
as more than just entertainment.
I believe SGM should be more than just entertainment for a very key reason.
Southern gospel music takes its name and subject matter from the Bible,
God's word. This type of music is very different than other types because
it claims a higher subject. One could easily argue that singing gospel
music just for entertainment purposes is tantamount to taking the Lord's
name in vain. No doubt a person who is using the name of the Lord for
something other than honoring him or calling upon him is vainly using His
name.
For this very reason, I submit that singers of gospel music should be
considered ministers of a sort. They may not stand and preach, but they do
stand before great crowds in the name of the Lord and proclaim the word in
song. Because of this, those who sing gospel music should be men and women
of Biblical character, not simply chosen because of their musical
capabilities. It is impossible to determine the Christian character of an
individual without "proving" them, which is a Biblical mandate. (2 Timothy
4:5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an
evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.)
CJ
Jeff Thompson
put into the equation of Kirk Talley one must assume that the years spent in
small churches and on the road before singing before the large crowds he has
accustomed himself to would be that training period. I do not think so much
this is a matter of how much training to minister he needs before he goes
out. He obviously has that training it is in my opinion a matter of
dedication to what he evidently believes in. I would think it is safe to say
that he was not dedicated to his own beliefs (i.e....calling his own actions
sin). If he were truly dedicated to this belief he would have gotten help
long before it became a public issue that was played out on the internet and
the news and in newsgroups like this. And I could be wrong as I do not know
the time frame of the events that took place as far as when he met the
person who tried to blackmail him or when as I read in a previous post he
tried to meet men on the internet. I read his web page and did not see
anything that told of when he met or was intimate with this person. I would
really feel pity for a man whose past has come back at them to ruin them
when they have tried to live anew. I have to wonder if our past was to be
our present how many of us could live with what we would have to face. And
like I said this could be a pointless area in my discussion if this is
something that has just happened with him. As for how long he should go
before he starts to sing professionally and lets face it like another poster
has said it is a job. Which is why he is going into sales. I do not know
that I could put a time limit on that. If you as a Christian cheat your
pastor in the collection plate should it cost you your job. As sin is sin
and there is none greater than the other and what you think you have already
done every time you had a bad thought go through your head about someone
wouldn't you have to change jobs? I mean this is exactly what is happening
in this case. And who now really suffers all those who listen to the music
and are blessed by what it says and how it sounds. And his own family
because he has to change careers because he sinned. All have sinned but have
not had to seek new employment because of it.
Well this was a lot longer than I had intended. And please do not think I am
setting a tone of disagreement with anyone. I am just stating my own opinion
in the forgiveness I have been able to find for myself and for others.
Jeff
Just Allan
Forgiveness is always required - trust isn't.
garydw
"Just Allan" <just...@COLDhotmail.com> wrote in message
news:fdgp209344emsune2...@4ax.com...
I will try to avoid the previous debate on sexual orientation. But Kirk
Talley is welcome at my church any time. And I know of several what would be
called conservative churches in the area that feel the same way. Kirk is
not a sinner for being gay. He is a sinner for trying to find sex in a chat
room. Forgiveness is something we have to give. And I for one have done
that, and I welcome his wonderful voice to fill our church with his God
given voice, and spirit.
Gary
Bolorang
Gary,
Of course he is welcome at your church, you are a homosexual. I
assume you worship openly as a homosexual and your church welcomes
that. Believe it or not, there are still many churches out there that
don't agree with homosexuality and won't welcome an openly homosexual
singer to come and minister. Kirk will have to address where he
stands on his homosexualtity at some point.
Not one post on this subject has really dealt with the reality that he
faces. As a poster put it, his singing is his job. Since he is
choosing to sing gospel music and his website mentions his "ministry,"
he will have to deal with the homosexuality issue if he expects to be
widely accepted.
Look at Michael English for example. He dealt with the affair he had.
He went through some tough times and sometimes he stumbled. Today, he
ministers and is openly able to use the affair as part of his
ministry, but it took time. He certaintly wasn't back singing gospel
music immediately after his admission. The guy tried adult
contemporary for a while. Eventually he moved back to gospel and
were all better off for it.
The fact that churches might not be accept KT does not make them
homoophobic. I'm sure these churches would allow him to worship, but
I believe there are preachers that will still say homosexuality is a
sin and would preach against it. It goes to their interpretation of
the Bible and what they believe is right and wrong. I know that's not
the politically correct answer, but it is what it is.
TommyDale
> On 13 Feb 2004 00:59:25 GMT, kjcs...@aol.com (KJCSmith1) wrote:
>
> >
> >>I guess I am just wondering why Kirk Talley is starting to sing again
> >>(even if it is limited,) this soon after such a huge revelation
> >>concerning his life. It seems to me that he has not settled any
> >>issues.
> >
> >
> >He struggled with the decision on whether to sing or not and almost turned
> >around and went back home before he got to church. As for settling issues,
> >have you talked to him??? He is seeking counseling and doing lots of praying
> >and seeking God's will I would think that is stepping the right way to "settle
> >issues".
>
> I'm not following your logic. How is his situation any different than
> say a pastor who has an affair with a woman in his church and then a
> month later is back preaching? I think the pastor has to repent and
> slowly move back into ministry if that is his calling. He would have
> to explain himself.
>
> Look, I have no problem with him singing. His songs minister to me.
> I'm just saying he will have to address the issue at some point. His
> site indicates three times he is already out there singing and
> ministering.
There was a preacher in this area who was accused of wrongdoing, and
the Church's parent organization made him sit out 2 years before
taking the pulpit again, but in a different district. That is a very
logical way to handle matters. Take a period of 2 years or so and get
your life straightened out. (No pun intended)
> >>For example, is he going to live as a gay man and sing
> >>Southern Gospel music? I don't believe most people that listen to
> >>Southern Gospel are ready to accept a gay artist.
> >
> >You do know that there are people who consider themselves gay but abstain (sp?)
> >from sex living that lifestyle. My best friends brother is gay is one who
> >doesn't practice the lifestyle. He said it is like a person who is an alcholic
> >it is a long road and have to be on guard at all times.
>
>
> So what is your point. Your not addressing my question. Sure, if
> Kirk Talley comes out and says he is gay and is going to abstain from
> the lifestyle, people may be willing to bring him to their churches.
> He has not done that yet. He is still in counseling.
I will wait until I hear him profess that he is delivered, and tell
the world that the homosexual behavior was sin, and he has been
forgiven and now leads a normal lifestyle.
BigUn
whole thing has only been out in the open for a few weeks. There's not been
enough time for healing, correction, or restoration. You may think it's been
beat to death and may be sick of hearing about it but it's still only been A
FEW WEEKS. Restoration from a problem like that takes months or years.
I strongly suspect that there has been no repentance and the tactic was to
simply wait a few weeks until the storm blew over. Only time will tell if
it's back to "business as usual". I sure hope not.
Bolorang
wrote:
BigUn,
I am glad to see someone sees this like I see it. Kirk Talley is
going to have to address where he stands concerning his homosexuality.
I think singing in his church is one thing. He mentioned three
different venues he will be singing. That is completely different.
I see that he has three options if plans return to full time southern
gospel: 1) Say he is a homosexual and believes it is not contrary to
God's word and he plans to continue to sing. 2) Say he is a
homosexual, but will abstain from the lifestyle, and 3)say he has
repented, renounce that lifestyle and then return to SG.
The only way I see him successfully returning to SG is option 3. Most
churches are not ready to accept an openly gay southern gospel singer.
Some will, but most will not.
None of that has been addressed and by his own admision hs is still
seeking couseling. He does not go into specifics on what the
counseling is for. For all we know, he is being counseled to accept
his lifestyle and that being gay is fine and not against God's word.
I think it is fine to be forgiving and pray for him and hope he will
be able to return, but some of y'all have your heads in the sand if
you think he is ready to return without addressing where he stands
concerning his lifestyle choices.
OnYn1
doctor. He might be in need of hormone meds.
Sometimes persons that have the problem are part male and part female, and they
need medical help.
Some times a guy might be 75% a guy, but also have female glands that produce
female hormones, and a female sex drive.
David Bruce Murray
> The only way I see him successfully returning to SG is option 3. Most
> churches are not ready to accept an openly gay southern gospel singer.
> Some will, but most will not.
Yeah, but it's possible that minority of churches would be enough to sustain
him financially. He only has himself to support.
garydw
Just a point so that I must make. The Church I attend is not a gay church.
It is an open and affirming church that welcomes all members of the
community.
garydw
"OnYn1" <on...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040213162217...@mb-m27.aol.com...
Just Allan
No disrespect to yourself, but I don't buy this explanation they
sometimes give. There was a "documentary" I saw from England, where a
woman thought she was "a man inside". The so-called doctors said she
was the most classic case they'd seen for hormone therapy. So she
started the therapy with the plan to change into a man, later to have
a sex change operation. The show followed "her" for several
weeks/months and noted the changes. When asked how she felt/what she
thought after several weeks, she said several comments along the lines
of:
"I'm just amazed about such-and-such"
"I never thought"
"I feel so different"
"It's nothing like what I expected"
Anyway... Every answer she gave to the question, showed either her or
the doctors (or both) were lying about her "being a man inside",
because if this was the case, none of those things she admitted to
would be amazing, not thought of, greatly different, or unexpected.
Here's the truth of the matter:
James 1:12-16
Born that way or not... They have a responsibility:
12 Blessed is the man that ***endureth temptation***: for when he is
tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath
promised to them that love him.
No one is born that way - this would be God tempting them into sin:
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God
cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
So what then *does* cause homosexual behaviour?:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his **own
lust***, and enticed.
(It wasn't the way they were "made", or a chemical imbalance, it's
***their LUST***.)
Then they choose to act on their lust, and the result is:
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when
it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Make sure we understand the progression from lust to sin - to
misunderstand this is an error:
16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
It doesn't get much clearer than that for those who are even part
serious about their Christianity.
Allan.
Just Allan
wrote:
>I strongly suspect that there has been no repentance and the tactic was to
>simply wait a few weeks until the storm blew over. Only time will tell if
>it's back to "business as usual". I sure hope not.
Perhaps... I do know the practice of it for years certainly doesn't
now promote another conclusion. If it was me I'd want to show
everyone (including myself) I was making every effort to change. In
other words, I'd find any other kind of work no matter how much of a
backward step it was. But that's me. We all have different levels of
sincerity.
Jeff Thompson
"Just Allan" <just...@COLDhotmail.com> wrote in message
> Here's the truth of the matter:
>
> James 1:12-16
>
> Born that way or not... They have a responsibility:
>
> 12 Blessed is the man that ***endureth temptation***: for when he is
> tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath
> promised to them that love him.
> No one is born that way - this would be God tempting them into sin:
>
> 13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God
> cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
How do you tell a hermaphrodite who God DID make that way. And a doctor
chose to remove the wrong sex organ that they are just being tempted. that
God did not make them that way. I do not mean to be contentious but if you
make a blanket statement without considering all of the aspects of that
statement to prove your point then you are closed to any real discussion
unless it fits your own point of view. We do in this country have several
million people who are intersexed better known as hermaphrodites,
approximately 1-in-25,000 births. [Statistic source: New England Journal of
Medicine, 01/14/98.]
> So what then *does* cause homosexual behaviour?:
>
> 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his **own
> lust***, and enticed.
>
> (It wasn't the way they were "made", or a chemical imbalance, it's
> ***their LUST***.)
> Allan.
Using this as a basis for what causes ALL homosexuality would be the same as
saying that ALL people born albino are not really born that way they were
made that way by their own desires never to go into the sunlight. And it is
that desire that has caused them to sin.
If you read a little further in James
1:26
If any man among you seem to be religious, and not bridleth his tongue, but
deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.
I think before we deceive ourselves into thinking that God would never make
a man or a woman with both parts ( a medical fact) because to do so would
cause them to have to CHOOSE which life they felt they were supposed to have
or worse yet a doctor chooses for them at birth and most parents are not
even aware of this fact. And suppose that a man is born with both male and
female parts and the doctor closes up the female parts and then in puberty
the man starts to gain breasts and has to have them removed or have a sex
change in order to become female again. Lets say he has lived his whole life
as a man now he is having feelings like a woman. And thinking that he needs
to be with a man would you say he is homosexual because he chose to be or
did god make him one way and a doctor made him another and if this be the
case then who is sinning.
I think I will bridle my tongue before I would make the statement God did
not make any man this way or that way As I do not know Gods mind. I do not
know every creature he has put on this earth and I do not certainly know the
heart of a man to know if he is sinning or if he is following Gods law for
his life. But this issue has gone well past the original post which was
about Kirk Talley and gone into a philosophy debate on homosexuality, and
its causes. As for Kirk I do not know his heart I pray for Gods will in his
life. If that will is for him to sing then I believe he will sing if it is
for him to sit quietly then so be it. Kirk never has to answer to me he
never has to explain himself to me. His judge is god. The same as mine so I
will let my judge unbridle his tongue and I will keep mine in check.
Sorry to make this so long and I do not mean for it to sound as a slap or
slam to anyone or their beliefs.
Jeff
Steve
BigUn
"Steve" <mufa...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040212195458...@mb-m06.aol.com...
> What difference does it make that he wants to sing?
The issue is proclaiming to stand in the office of minister of the gospel in
that condition. This is TOTALLY unacceptable.
> This man has been through
> something that I hope none of us have to go through.
He's not a victim. It was a choice.
> sing... I say let him. He gets joy from it and brings joy to others who
hear
> him.
Sing all you (he) want. Just don't stand in the office of "minister" in that
condition.
>
> Personally I think this issue with Kirk has been beaten to death. How
long
> does a man have to be drug through the mud and have every move questioned
by
> others.
Uh, chief it's only been out for a few weeks. I don't think that qualifies
as "beaten to death".
> Lets not discuss this issue on here anymore. Lets move on to another
topic.
> Lets move on to any other topic that does not cause someone public hurt
and
> humiliation.
If that "someone" is going to insist on living a detestable lifestyle AND
continue to proclaim themselves a "minister" then they should suffer some
angst, until they either give up the lifestyle and get help or get out of
the "ministry" business.
It's WRONG to stand in a position of minister of the gospel AND to be a gay
man.
BigUn
> but the fact is that no
> one knows how long is long enough.
I've heard several ministers discuss how restoration was handled in cases of
sexual misconduct among clergy. The general consensus was almost always a
(minimum) 2 year period of sitting out and being subject to authority. After
the authority figure has judged the person as ready to return to ministry
they were returned to a low position with little authority. They then had to
work their way back up, as they proved themselves.
Two or three weeks is NOT anywhere close to demonstrating sincerity or
repentence.
BigUn
> I apologize to Bolorang for seeming to jump to conclusions. I just
however
> feel that we need to walk in someone elses shoes before we can truly
understand
> why they do the things they do.
No, no, NO! I will NOT walk in these "shoes" and I will never be willing to
"understand" in allowing someone that's living a lie to stand in the office
of minister. It's wrong now. It was wrong 10 years ago. I was wrong 1000
years ago. It'll be wrong in the future.....
> Also, like Dan stated ...is there a right or
> wrong length of time?
Who can determine the "right" length of time? I don't know but it's
certainly longer than THREE WEEKS. Would you disagree?
> Jesus said we should forgive 70 times 7.
Forgiveness is not the same thing as continuing to allow a lying spirit
voice into yours, other Christians, and other would-be Christians' lives. To
stand at the side and say "it's not my business" is wrong. It's being
complicit in wrong doing and it's wrong.
BigUn
"garydw" <no.spam...@speakeasy.net> wrote in message
news:eO2dnbh69er...@speakeasy.net...
>
> But Kirk Talley is welcome at my church any time.
Then your "church" should be closed down or have a leadership change until
they begin to follow the Word of God.
> And I know of several what would be
> called conservative churches in the area that feel the same way.
They should also be closed or have pastoral staff installed that actually
follow the Word of God.
> And I for one have done
> that, and I welcome his wonderful voice to fill our church with his God
> given voice, and spirit.
And let me guess, your next statement will be "And he's welcome to come to
our house after the concert for a game of tiddly winks."?
garydw
No one makes the choice to be gay
I would not have made the choice to be among the most hated group in America
today.
I tried to make the choice to be heterosexual, it did not work.
I am who I am, and so is Kirk Talley.
Who are we, we are children of the almighty God, made in his image, and made
to be just who we are.
garydw
"BigUn" <manws...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:vradnU4WKeO...@comcast.com...
slow death, and also shows why the church is also dropping in membership.
Who are you, are any one else to sit in Judgment of what our church does or
does not do?
I would strongly suggest that you take a look at a very well written book,
from a very knowledgeable man. The Book is entitled "Why The Christianity
Must Change or Die" and was written by John Shelby Spong.
This man is not just any man, he is a Bishop. Before you proceed to judge
you really need to read his book, study it, pray about , then speak.
Gary
Steve
I mean o disrespect with my comment that I am about to say. Who has made you
judge and jury to condem anyone for anything. No sin is great than any other.
A sin is a sin. You as a human being have sin in your life also. WE all do.
We are on equal ground in that respect, and YES I do feel that this has been
beaten to death on here in 3 weeks. It seems to come up as a topic is most
every thread. The newsgroups has trasnformed from a place to discuss music to
a place to persecute the wrongdoing of members in the SG community. That in
itself is a sin. We are all mortals and sinners. If you say you are not a
sinner then you are mistaken. As a Christian you still sin daily. We all do,
and like I said before no sin is greater than any other. They are all equal.
BigUn
>> I am who I am, and so is Kirk Talley.
>
> Who are we, we are children of the almighty God, made in his image, and
made
> to be just who we are.
>
So you suggest that Kirk shouldn't bother with counselling, since he's made
to be gay? Should we all just accept it and continue to buy his records and
celebrate his gay-ness?
BigUn
It's my job (and yours) to read and try to understand His Word and not stand
idly by while a bunch of sodomites (as Carol puts it) takes over the
Christian church. If you choose to stand by and become complicit to their
movement then YOU can answer for the lost souls due to your complacency. As
for me and my house, we will serve the Lord and do His work in the earth.
This includes speaking out against an abomination that is equal in weight to
any other sin in the earth.
"Steve" <mufa...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040214091702...@mb-m07.aol.com...
Jeff Thompson
> Steve, I don't "condemn" anybody of anything. The Word of God condemns it.
> It's my job (and yours) to read and try to understand His Word and not
stand
> idly by while a bunch of sodomites (as Carol puts it) takes over the
> Christian church. If you choose to stand by and become complicit to their
> movement then YOU can answer for the lost souls due to your complacency.
As
> for me and my house, we will serve the Lord and do His work in the earth.
> This includes speaking out against an abomination that is equal in weight
to
> any other sin in the earth.
>
Seems to me that Lot was a good man living in Sodom. He must have been
surrounded by them yet I remember no mention of the fact that he shouted at
the rooftops that they were all going to die of what he may or may not have
considered their sin and it was his job to save them from it. I do not
remember the passage that said Lot had been set up as their judge. As a
matter of fact I didnt even read anywhere that lot moved away so he would
not have to deal with them. What I read was that (paraphrasing) Lot had
lived his own life the way he thought God wanted and it was when God saw his
light shining he was told to leave because GOD was going to destroy the
city. Now if everyone in the city was so evil that none could be saved
except for Lot and his family then it would also stand to reason he was
doing business with these same people. He bought and sold with them. Wonder
if they had had southern gospel cd's if Lot and his family would have
purchased any of that music. He obviously purchased everything else he
needed from these EVIL people. I do not remember where God asked lot at any
point why he did not try to convert any of them from their wicked ways. And
we know that God thought this crowd was a pip by the fact that he took it
all out. And this was in the old testament where we only had the law to live
by. Where it says love thy neighbor as thyself and all that good stuff. Of
course given the direction of this thread one could easily come to the
conclusion that we should love our neighbor till he disappoints us then we
should point at him and make him stand before the city and shout to us and
the rest of the town that he has done wrong. Let me ask any one of you this.
If sin is sin and all sin is the same then when was the last time any one of
you had to stand up in front of your house or your congregation or your town
or in Kirk Talleys situation the world and proclaim anything you had done
wrong. Will you start with the sin of pride? Some here seem to be so proud
of the fact that they have all the answers as to what this man needs to do
to make it right with the world when in reality what they are saying is this
is what Kirk needs to do to make it right with me and the way I see God's
word. With such blanket statements as we have seen about Kirk and what he
needs to do to go back to singing, and what he needs to do to be right with
God it is no wonder that we as American Christians are one of the most hated
groups of people in the world. We have not lived next door to sodomites and
let God remove us from the situation. What is going on here is that some
have felt a Special gift from God to give them the abilty to not only know
his mind but to speak his judgements and do his condemning for him. As I see
it there are two words that look different sound different and yet their
meaning is so close that it tends to cause people to sin. Condemnation and
Compassion. When you look in the New Testament you will see when Jesus had
compassion a miracle occurred. Condemnation says: I see where you are I do
not know how you got there but you had better come out of it to save your
soul. Compassion says: I see where you are I do not know how you got there
but I hurt right along with you so let us come out together.
When Jesus met the woman with the issue of blood he did not say to her you
are dirty and you had better get clean or I will tell everyone how dirty you
are. He said You are dirty and I feel the pain it has brought you and we do
not need to suffer this pain any longer let us both come away from it.
I make no apologies as to whose toes I may step on. This thread has gotten
really mean spirited in that some feel they can tell all how they should
live based on their own understanding of the bible.
Jeff
David Stuart
Sat, Feb 14, 2004, 7:04am (EST-1) From: no.spam...@speakeasy.net
(garydw)
Dear GAry, that is just a lie from the enemy, you sir, are being
deceived!!!!!!!
I will pray for you as well as Kirk Talley!
David
Steve
Amen Jeff!!!
You hit the nail on the head again!!!
Steve
Just Allan
<dbmu...@NOSPAM.mailblocks.com> wrote:
>He only has himself to support.
Here's hoping, anyway.
garydw
"Jeff Thompson" <meth...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:XMmdnV7zKIN...@comcast.com...
garydw
celebrating is the love of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
God gave Kirk his voice so that he could sing and spread the Love of God,
and not the hatred of fundamentalist Christians. People who buy his music
help to make it possible for him to continue to spread the Love of God.
Not once has Kirk every promoted his personal life from the stage, and that
is the way it should be.
There is no counseling needed. Just the love of our father, and the love of
true Christians.
Kirk is who God made him to be, a wonderfully gifted, spiritually guided,
Christian. A man who loves God and sings about it.
Let us celebrate that, and stop all this trashing of a person who is gay. A
gay person is just a person. And very much a Christian.!
Gary
garydw
"David Stuart" <Blig...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:12190-40...@storefull-3275.bay.webtv.net...
If you are praying that I will not be gay anymore, then please do not waste
your time or God's time.
Now if you are praying for God to continue to bless our marriage, then go
for it.
But you see, God as made it clear to me, and to my partner, and to are very
large Christian family that we are ok, that we are ok as we are, and we are
gay.
And as a side note. We re-need our Wedding Vows today (feb 14) at a very
wonderful church, along with 18 other couples both Gay and Straight. And the
pasture that presided over the service was a heterosexual as well.
Gary
Just Allan
<meth...@comcast.net> wrote:
>How do you tell a hermaphrodite who God DID make that way.
Good question - it doesn't contradict what I've said tho'. This is a
physical, genetic mistake - not a delibrately cultivated lust.
>And a doctor
>chose to remove the wrong sex organ that they are just being tempted.
Kind of a red herring, since it's pretty obvious to all concerned
which gender is the dominant one with these folks. One "group" of
parts don't function - and everything else about them lines up with
this fact.
>> So what then *does* cause homosexual behaviour?:
>>
>> 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his **own
>> lust***, and enticed.
>>
>> (It wasn't the way they were "made", or a chemical imbalance, it's
>> ***their LUST***.)
>
>> Allan.
>
>Using this as a basis for what causes ALL homosexuality would be the same as
>saying that ALL people born albino are not really born that way they were
>made that way by their own desires never to go into the sunlight. And it is
>that desire that has caused them to sin.
It seems you're trying to say hermaphrodites are the same as
homosexuals, or perhaps even bisexual which of course they're not.
Most detest one "part" of themselves and would do anything to be rid
of it. Homsexuals embrace their confusion and increase their lust -
just as the above verse says - they are drawn away of their own lust
and enticed. Homosexuality is a *feeling* - a desire - not a physical
difference. Men are not born with lust for men - they are born with
lust - and further cultivate that themselves.
> If you read a little further in James
>
>1:26
> If any man among you seem to be religious, and not bridleth his tongue, but
>deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.
This bit I've "left out" also has others bits you've left out:
James 1:21-27
Believe the Word of God:
21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness,
and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save
your souls.
Do the Word of God. To read it but not do it, is only deceiving
ourselves:
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your
own selves.
James 1:23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is
like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
James 1:24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and
straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
James 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and
continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the
work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
The test of a Christian. He hears the Word of God (above verse), yet
bridles not his tongue (contradicts the Word of God by teaching
otherwise). These people's Christianity is in vain.
James 1:26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not
his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.
A summary of pure religion - good works towards those overlooked by
society then, and to be separate from the actions of worldly people.
James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is
this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to
keep himself unspotted from the world.
So James is talking about lust - then says to be doers of the word -
because by actions and words we can tell if a person's religion is
real, or in vain. Then he summaries what pure religion is - part of
which is remaining "unspotted from the world."
The lust of homosexuality is one of the biggest blots a person can
have on their soul. You can't get a much clearer example of "spotting
of the world" than this.
>I think before we deceive ourselves into thinking that God would never make
>a man or a woman with both parts ( a medical fact)
I never said God wouldn't allow a genetic mistake, so there's no
deception. I quoted the Bible where it says God tempts no man into
sin. Homosexuality is sin - God doesn't make anyone that way, they do
this themselves.
>because to do so would
>cause them to have to CHOOSE which life they felt they were supposed to have
>or worse yet a doctor chooses for them at birth and most parents are not
>even aware of this fact.
Already covered this - their physical bodies are a genetic "mistake" -
not a lustful choice. There is zero evidence homosexuality is a
genetic mistake. (Unless they want to admit they have smaller
brains.) : )
If homosexuality was a genetic mistake, God wouldn't wipe out Sodom -
full of sodomites. He said He found none righteous there. In other
words, if what they were doing was unrighteous - it was their *choice*
to be unrighteous.
>And suppose that a man is born with both male and
>female parts and the doctor closes up the female parts and then in puberty
>the man starts to gain breasts and has to have them removed or have a sex
>change in order to become female again. Lets say he has lived his whole life
>as a man now he is having feelings like a woman. And thinking that he needs
>to be with a man would you say he is homosexual because he chose to be or
>did god make him one way and a doctor made him another and if this be the
>case then who is sinning.
What's that saying... "Say something long enough, most of the people
will believe it." : ) Seriously, it's a poor way of defending
homosexuality.
>I think I will bridle my tongue before I would make the statement God did
>not make any man this way or that way As I do not know Gods mind.
You should read His Word - and you would. : ) God doesn't make
homosexuals - I'm fully confident of that, so on this subject I can
know God's mind. He endorsed marriage between a man and a woman -
both in the old Testament as God & the new Testament as Jesus. He
referred to nature being our guideline - that the animal kingdom
repeats this same pattern. He wiped out Sodom - a lesson so clear
that we went on to call the homosexual act "Sodomy" - named after
their place of residence... The examples go on and they are clear.
>I do not
>know every creature he has put on this earth and I do not certainly know the
>heart of a man to know if he is sinning or if he is following Gods law for
>his life.
Practicing homosexuals are in sin... "God said it, I believe it -
that's good enough for me."
>As for Kirk I do not know his heart I pray for Gods will in his
>life. If that will is for him to sing then I believe he will sing if it is
>for him to sit quietly then so be it. Kirk never has to answer to me he
>never has to explain himself to me. His judge is god. The same as mine so I
>will let my judge unbridle his tongue and I will keep mine in check.
Hey - I don't disagree with you! If you look back, I said "if it was
me". But don't look back... Remember Lot's wife. : )
>Sorry to make this so long and I do not mean for it to sound as a slap or
>slam to anyone or their beliefs.
>
>Jeff
Thanks for the discussion!
Allan.
KJCSmith1
>simply wait a few weeks until the storm blew over. Only time will tell if
>it's back to "business as usual". I sure hope not.
I strongly suspect that you are wrong about being no repentace and as for it
being a tatic...oh please.
Just Allan
wrote:
>> Lets not discuss this issue on here anymore. Lets move on to another
>topic.
>> Lets move on to any other topic that does not cause someone public hurt
>and
>> humiliation.
>
>If that "someone" is going to insist on living a detestable lifestyle AND
>continue to proclaim themselves a "minister" then they should suffer some
>angst, until they either give up the lifestyle and get help or get out of
>the "ministry" business.
>
>It's WRONG to stand in a position of minister of the gospel AND to be a gay
>man.
Not to mention that if the homosexuals stop promoting their lies -
everyone else probably *would* move on. I personally won't keep going
and going, and I gave it up for several days and probably will again.
But at the same time, I don't think the perverts should have the last
word either.
KJCSmith1
>backward step it was.
Which is something that Kirk is also doing.
KJCSmith1
>site indicates three times he is already out there singing and
>ministering.
>
Yeah three churches....I would not call that going back to it full time
>He has not done that yet. He is still in counseling.
I know that...and that is the point he is getting help and beginning the long
process of healing. Have you thought about how hard it was to get up in front
of people and sing again after all that has happened. Being able to do that is
also a part of a healing process.
Just Allan
wrote:
>I've heard several ministers discuss how restoration was handled in cases of
>sexual misconduct among clergy. The general consensus was almost always a
>(minimum) 2 year period of sitting out and being subject to authority. After
>the authority figure has judged the person as ready to return to ministry
>they were returned to a low position with little authority. They then had to
>work their way back up, as they proved themselves.
>
>Two or three weeks is NOT anywhere close to demonstrating sincerity or
>repentence.
Wow. That's so... REALISTIC & PRACTICAL! : )
I've seen exactly this happen. It sure sorts out those who are
sincere in their repentance. The person I'm thinking of, after
publicly repenting and committing to building that trust again,
received many hugs, tears and offers of support. Then he immediately
disappeared. He decided he shouldn't have to wait or work to build
that trust again - so he left town with his family looking for another
church where he could start "further up the ladder".
Allan.
KJCSmith1
Sorry but there is need for counseling. So you are saying that Kirk should
stayed confused about how is feeling and that he should stay miserable and
hurting. Kirk has the love of his Father and the love of Christians, but sorry
counseling is a good thing.
Just Allan
>I mean o disrespect with my comment that I am about to say. Who has made you
>judge and jury to condem anyone for anything. No sin is great than any other.
Apart from Noah's flood at the beginning and the Lake of Fire at the
end of all things, the only time God destroyed an entire group of
people was Sodom & Gomorrah by fire & brimstone. I'd say that's
pretty good evidence there *is* a difference.
>It seems to come up as a topic is most every thread.
Not in my newsreader!?
>The newsgroups has trasnformed from a place to discuss music to
>a place to persecute the wrongdoing of members in the SG community. That in
>itself is a sin. We are all mortals and sinners. If you say you are not a
>sinner then you are mistaken. As a Christian you still sin daily. We all do,
>and like I said before no sin is greater than any other. They are all equal.
We're all sinners - we're not all living in sin.
Bolorang
Gary,
Were you in a pasture when the pastor renewed your vows? Just
kidding. I think you were typing too fast...
What state did you do that in? I didn't think a gay marriage was
legal.
Hank Gillette
"Jeff Thompson" <meth...@comcast.net> wrote:
> I make no apologies as to whose toes I may step on. This thread has gotten
> really mean spirited in that some feel they can tell all how they should
> live based on their own understanding of the bible.
If you think this is mean-spirited, then you are new here.
--
Hank Gillette
Just Allan
<meth...@comcast.net> wrote:
>Seems to me that Lot was a good man living in Sodom. He must have been
>surrounded by them yet I remember no mention of the fact that he shouted at
>the rooftops that they were all going to die of what he may or may not have
>considered their sin and it was his job to save them from it.
He also had to be DRAGGED out of the city, that he wanted to stay so
much that he kept delaying even though two ANGELS from God Himself
came to warn him. (Hardly the best example of how to act.)
>I do not
>remember the passage that said Lot had been set up as their judge. As a
>matter of fact I didnt even read anywhere that lot moved away so he would
>not have to deal with them.
LOL. Exactly why Christians should stand against it today. Lot
started in the plains - with many possessions, servants and riches.
He ended up in Sodom living among homosexuals, vexing his righteous
soul, all servants presumably previously believers now lost to sodomy,
no riches, his daughters married to poor husband, and left with zero
possessions. He left with only his immediate family - and even lost a
major part of that on the way out. If he had stayed longer, he may
have even turned a Sodomite himself.
This is the kind of spiritual and material destitution homosexuality
brings into the lives of God's people when they don't stand against
it.
>If sin is sin and all sin is the same then when was the last time any one of
>you had to stand up in front of your house or your congregation or your town
>or in Kirk Talleys situation the world and proclaim anything you had done
>wrong.
Sin *is* sin - but it's not all the same. It has the same REWARD, but
it's not all on the same level of depravity. Jesus Himself said, "He
that hath the *greater sin*." A male preacher poking his extremities
into another man's rear end is not the same as someone ill replying
"Good." to the question, "How are you today?" because they don't want
to get into a discussion about their health.
Sorry for the explicit graphic folks, but I'm fed up with the
homosexuals agenda in here. (I'm not specifically referring to you
Jeff, either.)
>Will you start with the sin of pride? Some here seem to be so proud
>of the fact that they have all the answers as to what this man needs to do
>to make it right with the world when in reality what they are saying is this
>is what Kirk needs to do to make it right with me and the way I see God's
>word. With such blanket statements as we have seen about Kirk and what he
>needs to do to go back to singing, and what he needs to do to be right with
>God it is no wonder that we as American Christians are one of the most hated
>groups of people in the world.
On the subject of pride - for someone to say homosexuality is ok, is a
perfect example of pride. But apart from this, I think nearly all of
the comments here people are labelling as negative have been helpful,
constructive & supportive. I'll go even further and say that if the
fellow came here and read them, he may well find much strength and a
renewed determination to finally overcome his sin, by knowing there
are people who truly understand while he has this temptation, he hates
himself when he falls into it - and these people are cheering his
recovery on through Bible truth and prayer.
>We have not lived next door to sodomites and
>let God remove us from the situation.
"Forceably remove us from the situation" might be more appropriate.
: )
>What is going on here is that some
>have felt a Special gift from God to give them the abilty to not only know
>his mind but to speak his judgements and do his condemning for him. As I see
>it there are two words that look different sound different and yet their
>meaning is so close that it tends to cause people to sin. Condemnation and
>Compassion.
* People who sit and say nothing are murderers of mens' souls.
* People who gossip in the background are murderers of mens' souls.
* People who confront sin, show they understand and show the way out
of it are the ones showing the love of God.
>When you look in the New Testament you will see when Jesus had
>compassion a miracle occurred. Condemnation says: I see where you are I do
>not know how you got there but you had better come out of it to save your
>soul. Compassion says: I see where you are I do not know how you got there
>but I hurt right along with you so let us come out together.
No disagreement there - but too many people confuse honesty and
reality with condemnation - when silence and gossip are the real
condemnation.
>When Jesus met the woman with the issue of blood he did not say to her you
>are dirty and you had better get clean or I will tell everyone how dirty you
> are. He said You are dirty and I feel the pain it has brought you and we do
>not need to suffer this pain any longer let us both come away from it.
Um... Which is exactly what most people are doing now from what I've
read.
>I make no apologies as to whose toes I may step on. This thread has gotten
>really mean spirited in that some feel they can tell all how they should
>live based on their own understanding of the bible.
>
>Jeff
I make no apologies to anyone either. If you disagree with what I've
personally said (I'm not really sure at this point if you do) then yes
- you *are* wrong. Not because you'd be in disagreement with me (who
cares what anyone thinks) - but God.
Allan.
Just Allan
Stuart) wrote:
>
>Dear GAry, that is just a lie from the enemy, you sir, are being
>deceived!!!!!!!
>I will pray for you as well as Kirk Talley!
>
>David
Which brings up a question for me David, that maybe you or someone
else here can give their own personal answer...
I've never felt it was much use praying for people who refuse to see
their own error, when the info is presented to them over and over and
they won't see it (rather than don't see it). Whereas I would for
someone like KT who has communicated the things he has.
There's probably a better way to word this question, but it escapes me
right now... But do people think it's a good thing to do?
Allan.
Just Allan
Great! I've seen people (myself!) continue all the same other things
in their lives, yet wonder why they (I) can't change a certain
behaviour.
Allan.
Just Allan
Heh...
Do you mean... "Sorry counselling" is a good thing?
Or, Sorry... Counselling is a good thing?
: )
Just Allan
wrote:
>What state did you do that in? I didn't think a gay marriage was
>legal.
If you read some of the articles on yahoo the last few days, you'll
see what a lighthearted joke homosexuals think marriage is. Another
reason they shouldn't have access to it.
TommyDale
<snipped to save space and avoid repetition>
> This thread has gotten really mean spirited in that some feel they can tell >all how they should live based on their own understanding of the bible.
>
> Jeff
No, some are speaking the Truth (with a capital 'T') because they DO
understand what the Bible says. There is no sugar-coating
homosexuality -- it is a sin.
Accept that fact or risk the same destruction as Sodom.
garydw
"Bolorang" <alocac...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:n6ct209q7ftsuh64c...@4ax.com...
Sorry for the mistype. I am not a great typist.
This was in TN. And no marriage of same sex is not legal. But this was not
about legal, this was about a spiritual marriage. The covananet made between
two people and God.
garydw
"Just Allan" <just...@COLDhotmail.com> wrote in message
news:91bt20d0u6j86hk1n...@4ax.com...
Please be specific in what you are saying here. Same Sex Couples do not take
marriage as something light hearted. In San Francisco one couple has waited
51 years to be married. 51 years in a committed monogamous relationship.
What is wrong with that?
What I find funny is that religious fundamentalist is that you claim you are
protecting marriage. What are you protecting?
I here all the things about God, but what are you protecting about marriage.
What part of marriage do you wish to deny to same sex couples? What legal
protections?
Gary
garydw
"KJCSmith1" <kjcs...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040214181156...@mb-m29.aol.com...
worthless sack of crap?
That is the wrong kind of counseling. There is nothing wrong with Kirk being
gay. The problem is Christian Fundamentalist.
garydw
"Just Allan" <just...@COLDhotmail.com> wrote in message
The story of Sodom was not about homosexuality. Hell no one had even heard
that word until the 1800's
Sodom was about all kinds of sin. But no where did it say, imply or identify
the city has being destroyed for Homosexuality.
Some people need to stop listening to Jerry Fallwell, and do some learning
on their own.
Or read some of the writings of Bishop John Shelby Spong.
Gary
garydw
"Just Allan" <just...@COLDhotmail.com> wrote in message
Has Kirk said he was trying to be Heterosexual? No! Not on the information
I have. He is working to accept himself as the person he is.
garydw
"TommyDale" <stormtr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:bf14c408.04021...@posting.google.com...
WRONG!!!!!!!
Read the works of Bishop John Shelby Spong. That would be a good place to
start.
Bolorang
Gary,
Are your beliefs off of the writings of a Bishop or the word of God?
What does John Shelby Spong say? Can you be more specific please?
Just Allan
wrote:
>Gary,
>
>Are your beliefs off of the writings of a Bishop or the word of God?
>What does John Shelby Spong say? Can you be more specific please?
Well, read the Bible then invert everything it teaches - and then
you've pretty much got it!
KJCSmith1
>
>Do you mean... "Sorry counselling" is a good thing?
>Or, Sorry... Counselling is a good thing?
>
>: )
>
You are sooooo bad.....:)
KJCSmith1
>worthless sack of crap?
>
Gee....I have never heard of a counseling that tells people that.
>That is the wrong kind of counseling. There is nothing wrong with Kirk being
>gay. The problem is Christian Fundamentalist.
No the problem is that people don't wan't to follow what God says. Kirk is one
of the sweetest people there is. He himself has said that he has struggled
with this for years and that he knows it is wrong. So no counseling is not
wrong. Kirk is doing what he needs to do to heal.
MLD
> "BigUn" <manws...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:vradnU4WKeO...@comcast.com...
> >
> > "garydw" <no.spam...@speakeasy.net> wrote in message
> > news:eO2dnbh69er...@speakeasy.net...
> > >
> > Then your "church" should be closed down or have a leadership change until
> > they begin to follow the Word of God.
> > They should also be closed or have pastoral staff installed that actually
> > follow the Word of God.
> >
> > And let me guess, your next statement will be "And he's welcome to come to
> > our house after the concert for a game of tiddly winks."?
> >
> >This is the most mean-spirited attitude I've heard in a while. Why do Christians think they sit in the judgement seat?? Lord, please save us from your followers!!
> >
> >
> >
> And ideas like this are the reason that Southern Gospel music is dying a
> slow death, and also shows why the church is also dropping in membership.
>
> Who are you, are any one else to sit in Judgment of what our church does or
> does not do?
>
> I would strongly suggest that you take a look at a very well written book,
> from a very knowledgeable man. The Book is entitled "Why The Christianity
> Must Change or Die" and was written by John Shelby Spong.
>
> This man is not just any man, he is a Bishop. Before you proceed to judge
> you really need to read his book, study it, pray about , then speak.
>
> Gary
Gary, I agree - that is a great book. I'll tell you that if the
current church doesn't change, I hope it does die. It is hurting way
too many people.
Clarence Grigsby Jr.
Jeff Thompson
"Just Allan" <just...@COLDhotmail.com> wrote in message
> On Sat, 14 Feb 2004 10:55:04 -0500, "Jeff Thompson"
> <meth...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> He also had to be DRAGGED out of the city, that he wanted to stay so
> much that he kept delaying even though two ANGELS from God Himself
> came to warn him. (Hardly the best example of how to act.)
I wish you had been there to let Lot know what he should have done. I am
sure he could have used this wise counsel seeing that mere angels couldnt
get him to do what you thought he should have.
> LOL. Exactly why Christians should stand against it today. Lot
> started in the plains - with many possessions, servants and riches.
> He ended up in Sodom living among homosexuals, vexing his righteous
> soul, all servants presumably previously believers now lost to sodomy,
> no riches, his daughters married to poor husband, and left with zero
> possessions. He left with only his immediate family - and even lost a
> major part of that on the way out. If he had stayed longer, he may
> have even turned a Sodomite himself.
> This is the kind of spiritual and material destitution homosexuality
> brings into the lives of God's people when they don't stand against
> it.
Funny but I thought it said Lot was the only righteous man in the whole
place. If he being a righteous man and that is not speculation but fact for
it is why he was spared then why did he not speak out if it was his *DUTY*
as I saw written in a previous post in this thread. But had he listened to
you and spoke as vehemently as you are speaking I wonder if there would have
ever been a story about him in the bible.
> >If sin is sin and all sin is the same then when was the last time any one
of
> >you had to stand up in front of your house or your congregation or your
town
> >or in Kirk Talleys situation the world and proclaim anything you had done
> >wrong.
>
> Sin *is* sin - but it's not all the same. It has the same REWARD, but
> it's not all on the same level of depravity. Jesus Himself said, "He
> that hath the *greater sin*."
If you are talking about
John 19:11 the correct quote is
Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it
were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath
the greater sin.
and no I do not wish to get into a discussion in a southern gospel music
forum about sin and whose is worse.
A male preacher poking his extremities
> into another man's rear end is not the same as someone ill replying
> "Good." to the question, "How are you today?" because they don't want
> to get into a discussion about their health.
In my opinion that was uncalled for.
>
> Sorry for the explicit graphic folks, but I'm fed up with the
> homosexuals agenda in here. (I'm not specifically referring to you
> Jeff, either.)
Not specifically but inherently?
> On the subject of pride - for someone to say homosexuality is ok, is a
> perfect example of pride. But apart from this, I think nearly all of
> the comments here people are labelling as negative have been helpful,
> constructive & supportive. I'll go even further and say that if the
> fellow came here and read them, he may well find much strength and a
> renewed determination to finally overcome his sin, by knowing there
> are people who truly understand while he has this temptation, he hates
> himself when he falls into it - and these people are cheering his
> recovery on through Bible truth and prayer.
>
That didnt exactly answer the question. We all have some sort of pride and
we all have sin in our lives. But we were not all told as it has been
requested in this forum to stand and prove to anyone that the sin is gone
from our lives.
> >We have not lived next door to sodomites and
> >let God remove us from the situation.
>
> "Forceably remove us from the situation" might be more appropriate.
> : )
Does it matter how you got out of the burning building? If you were saved
from it then wether you were smart enough to know the fire would kill you or
dumb enough to wait and see if a firemanwould show up and yank you out you
still had the same result.
>
> >What is going on here is that some
> >have felt a Special gift from God to give them the abilty to not only
know
> >his mind but to speak his judgements and do his condemning for him. As I
see
> >it there are two words that look different sound different and yet their
> >meaning is so close that it tends to cause people to sin. Condemnation
and
> >Compassion.
>
> * People who sit and say nothing are murderers of mens' souls.
> * People who gossip in the background are murderers of mens' souls.
> * People who confront sin, show they understand and show the way out
> of it are the ones showing the love of God.
Ok you got me I do not know which passage in any testament that is written.
> >When you look in the New Testament you will see when Jesus had
> >compassion a miracle occurred. Condemnation says: I see where you are I
do
> >not know how you got there but you had better come out of it to save your
> >soul. Compassion says: I see where you are I do not know how you got
there
> >but I hurt right along with you so let us come out together.
>
> No disagreement there - but too many people confuse honesty and
> reality with condemnation - when silence and gossip are the real
> condemnation.
Ham or bacon it is all pork. If your honesty and reality cause the spiritual
or physical death of another then would you not have to tell me where that
passage is about being murderers of mens souls?
> >When Jesus met the woman with the issue of blood he did not say to her
you
> >are dirty and you had better get clean or I will tell everyone how dirty
you
> > are. He said You are dirty and I feel the pain it has brought you and we
do
> >not need to suffer this pain any longer let us both come away from it.
>
> Um... Which is exactly what most people are doing now from what I've
> read.
Here is where we really see things differently. I have read in this thread I
WILL NEVER TRY TO UNDERSTAND and a whole lot of what HE needs to do to make
this situation right. What I dont see is where an abundance of people have
said my heart suffers for him and I feel that pain he is going through.
>
> I make no apologies to anyone either. If you disagree with what I've
> personally said (I'm not really sure at this point if you do) then yes
> - you *are* wrong. Not because you'd be in disagreement with me (who
> cares what anyone thinks) - but God.
HAHAHAHA anyone disagreeing with you is wrong. No pride there.
And yes Hank I am new to this group and to newsgroups in general. I have
only used them over the years when I needed an answer to a question. The one
that brought me here for example which was quickly answered and most
appreciated.
Just Allan
wrote:
>Gary, I agree - that is a great book. I'll tell you that if the
>current church doesn't change, I hope it does die. It is hurting way
>too many people.
Well you guys would know - your churches have been dead for decades.
Just Allan
(Clarence Grigsby Jr.) wrote:
>Well, I'm still praying for Kirk......and that poor, dead horse, too!
Yes well, let's not point out dead animals around these folk - they're
not all that discerning.
Just Allan
<meth...@comcast.net> wrote:
>I wish you had been there to let Lot know what he should have done. I am
>sure he could have used this wise counsel seeing that mere angels couldnt
>get him to do what you thought he should have.
HAHA! So God didn't really want Lot to leave after all? Man!
>Funny but I thought it said Lot was the only righteous man in the whole
>place. If he being a righteous man and that is not speculation but fact for
>it is why he was spared then why did he not speak out if it was his *DUTY*
>as I saw written in a previous post in this thread. But had he listened to
>you and spoke as vehemently as you are speaking I wonder if there would have
>ever been a story about him in the bible.
I'm not sure what you're saying above - but I do wonder if God would
have sent angels for Lot if Abraham had not pleaded for the righteous
souls there. Interesting, Abraham KNEW - at least approximately - how
many people Lot had with him. Yet every time God said He would spare
the city for that many souls sakes, Abraham paused and thought - and
would again would lower the count. Why? Because he knew men's hearts
are wicked and it was highly likely many that went with Lot fell away
- maybe even Lot himself. Perhaps this is why Abraham didn't take the
count down to one. If Lot had also fallen, maybe it was better he
didn't know about it.
But if you mean why didn't Lot do anything about their sin - well, he
obviously liked it there amongst worldly people too much. This is
obvious to blind Freddy, due to the angels dragging him out of the
place. Even though he was still yet righteous - how much longer would
it have taken before he was corrupted too - maybe not long at all,
since they had to drag him out (even though he knew God was about to
wipe it all out).
>and no I do not wish to get into a discussion in a southern gospel music
>forum about sin and whose is worse.
Um - you brought it up.
>A male preacher poking his extremities
>> into another man's rear end is not the same as someone ill replying
>> "Good." to the question, "How are you today?" because they don't want
>> to get into a discussion about their health.
>
>In my opinion that was uncalled for.
Perhaps it is - but that's what some people are defending. If it's
wrong to say it, then it's certainly wrong to defend it! It brings
horror to people's minds, yet they stand on a rooftop and defend
something God hates.
>> Sorry for the explicit graphic folks, but I'm fed up with the
>> homosexuals agenda in here. (I'm not specifically referring to you
>> Jeff, either.)
>
>Not specifically but inherently?
I meant what I said - that's why I said it. However, if anyone is
defending homosexuality, the shoe fits - so they might as well put it
on.
>That didnt exactly answer the question. We all have some sort of pride and
>we all have sin in our lives. But we were not all told as it has been
>requested in this forum to stand and prove to anyone that the sin is gone
>from our lives.
Yep, but we're not all claiming to be ministers of the Gospel whilst
fornicating with the same gender.
>Does it matter how you got out of the burning building? If you were saved
>from it then wether you were smart enough to know the fire would kill you or
>dumb enough to wait and see if a firemanwould show up and yank you out you
>still had the same result.
Well, yes it does matter. I bet if Lot went into another city the
next day and the same thing happened, he wouldn't wait around a second
time. Today however, angels don't turn up to yank homosexuals out of
their perversion. We have God's Word - and are told that if someone
won't listen to that, they won't listen even if one came back from the
dead.
>> * People who sit and say nothing are murderers of mens' souls.
>> * People who gossip in the background are murderers of mens' souls.
>> * People who confront sin, show they understand and show the way out
>> of it are the ones showing the love of God.
>
>Ok you got me I do not know which passage in any testament that is written.
Of course you know it isn't exactly worded that way (although I could
probably find a few verses that lined up - especially with #2). It's
just plain common sense.
>> No disagreement there - but too many people confuse honesty and
>> reality with condemnation - when silence and gossip are the real
>> condemnation.
>
>Ham or bacon it is all pork. If your honesty and reality cause the spiritual
>or physical death of another then would you not have to tell me where that
>passage is about being murderers of mens souls?
Honesty causes spiritual death? The Word of God is honest and it's
called the Word of Life. Jesus was the Living Word. The truth is, if
someone is confronted with their sin honestly (in love of course - not
hatred), yet they fall away... Then they were already spiritually
dead.
>> >When Jesus met the woman with the issue of blood he did not say to her
>you
>> >are dirty and you had better get clean or I will tell everyone how dirty
>you
>> > are. He said You are dirty and I feel the pain it has brought you and we
>do
>> >not need to suffer this pain any longer let us both come away from it.
>>
>> Um... Which is exactly what most people are doing now from what I've
>> read.
>
>Here is where we really see things differently. I have read in this thread I
>WILL NEVER TRY TO UNDERSTAND and a whole lot of what HE needs to do to make
>this situation right. What I dont see is where an abundance of people have
>said my heart suffers for him and I feel that pain he is going through.
Oh - ok. I have seen these comments myself. Remember though, people
aren't going to mention that again in every message they type, because
they've already said it and so take for granted people remember they
have.
I don't know if I know his pain, simply because I don't know if he's
sincere. Assuming he is I sure do know his pain - I know the feeling
of hating yourself even while you're carrying out a particular sin,
yet you can't hold yourself back from carrying it out. (Now I think
of it, I think I did say this just a couple of messages ago.)
>> I make no apologies to anyone either. If you disagree with what I've
>> personally said (I'm not really sure at this point if you do) then yes
>> - you *are* wrong. Not because you'd be in disagreement with me (who
>> cares what anyone thinks) - but God.
>
>HAHAHAHA anyone disagreeing with you is wrong. No pride there.
Well honestly, there's not. There's plenty of things I've thought
were this or that way - I've read the Word of God, saw I was wrong -
and I didn't LIKE IT. That's pride. I still had to accept God was
right and I was wrong - eventually anyway. : ) So in reference to
homosexuality, I know what I've said lines up with God's Word 100%.
Therefore I can confidently say if someone thinks otherwise, yes they
are wrong. Not because I'm right - but because He is.
Allan.
garydw
John Spong is simply an excellent teacher, and I think many of you here need
to read his work, and then learn to think and find the answers for yourself.
garydw
"Just Allan" <just...@COLDhotmail.com> wrote in message
Not really. Mine is very much alive, and growing.
REvans2311
fall. If the pastor had an affair with a woman, its a 2 year pause that the
Church asks for. If there was an indiscretion with a member of the same sex,
they are never allowed to minister in a pulpit.
The Church of God has lost many a good preacher because of these rules. Many
have turned completely away because their love for preaching was stifled.
There has to be a time of restoration. But none of us can set that time period
for Kirk. Only he and his counsel can set that.
The service where he sang at his home church (from what I was told by someone
who was there) was a sweet service. Kirk was ministered to. He wasn't there
to minister. I understand his pastor asked him to sing three songs to encourage
him not to lose his song.
I think there is one more church in Virginia somewhere that has asked him to
come also. From what I was told, the pastor of the church in Virginia wants to
have Kirk there so that his congregation can love him and encourage him. They
want him to sing, not as a gay man, but as a forgiven child of God.
Kirks letter on his website states that he started counseling this week. Why
don't we wait and see what happens before we kick him down any further. It
wouldn't hurt some of us to pray for him or send him some encouragement.
As for me and my house, I will pray for full restoration for Kirk Talley,
trusting in a loving, compassionate God that can deliver and heal and restore.
I think Kirk Talley has not written his best songs yet. I am excited about his
future.
Steve
I have to agree with you on all points. I think we need to take a wait and see
stance on things and not kick Kirk while he is down anymore than he already is.
I have heard the same sort of things as you have heard about the service he
sang in and the one he still has planned. I also feel that God is still
working through Kirk to write and hopefully sing many more songs to uplift our
God and King.
Steve
Larry Davis
> On 14 Feb 2004 14:17:02 GMT, mufa...@aol.com (Steve) wrote:
>
> >I mean o disrespect with my comment that I am about to say. Who has made you
> >judge and jury to condem anyone for anything. No sin is great than any other.
>
> Apart from Noah's flood at the beginning and the Lake of Fire at the
> end of all things, the only time God destroyed an entire group of
> people was Sodom & Gomorrah by fire & brimstone. I'd say that's
> pretty good evidence there *is* a difference.
>
Post hoc, ergo propter hoc? This is poor logic and bad theology. This
conclusion is even contrary to the narrative of the story itself. And,
more tellingly, the sin on no one person or group put Christ on the
cross more than any other person's sin.
Larry D
Atlanta, GA
TommyDale
> The Church of God has some rules about someone ministering again after such a
> fall. If the pastor had an affair with a woman, its a 2 year pause that the
> Church asks for. If there was an indiscretion with a member of the same sex,
> they are never allowed to minister in a pulpit.
>
> The Church of God has lost many a good preacher because of these rules. Many
> have turned completely away because their love for preaching was stifled.
WHOA!! What is more important, their "love for preaching" or being
removed from the pulpit for sin? If a pastor committed a sexual
indiscretion with a female member of the church, he SHOULD be removed
and sit out a couple of years until he gets his act together. If he
committed the sexual indiscretion with a male member of the church, I
wouldn't want him in front of MY family, teaching one thing and doing
another. The Church of God (and I am NOT a fan of that organization)
has every right to remove a pastor for a homosexual act.
It flies in the face of their very teaching.
Just Allan
wrote:
>> >I mean o disrespect with my comment that I am about to say. Who has made you
>> >judge and jury to condem anyone for anything. No sin is great than any other.
>>
>> Apart from Noah's flood at the beginning and the Lake of Fire at the
>> end of all things, the only time God destroyed an entire group of
>> people was Sodom & Gomorrah by fire & brimstone. I'd say that's
>> pretty good evidence there *is* a difference.
>>
> Post hoc, ergo propter hoc? This is poor logic and bad theology. This
>conclusion is even contrary to the narrative of the story itself. And,
>more tellingly, the sin on no one person or group put Christ on the
>cross more than any other person's sin.
Contrary? Huh!? God destroyed all things by flood because of man's
sin. God destroyed Sodom because of men's sin. God will destroy
everything at the end because of man's sin. Contradictory - um...
right...
And of course He didn't die more for one than another, because all sin
has the same *reward*. But not all sin has the same level of
depravity. For instance, if someone got angry with your wife without
a cause, then another man raped your daughter - I expect you'd see a
big difference between those two sins.
takeleus
Tony
Homo's in the pulpit. Are we all Episcopalians in this group. What
ever happened to being a Christian. I, like everyone, struggle with
sin daily. THe greatest comfort to me is knowing that God loves me
and forgive sin. Our pastor this morning preaching on 1 Timothy 3.
No pastor is with out sin, but I will never sit in a congreation where
the pastor is a open homo or adulter. To me that is slapping God in
the face. This may not sit well with some of you but here it is. I
do not believe that a person has the desire to commit adulty or be a
homosexual if he is saved and daily walks with God. I would encourage
everyone in this group to download a copy of the writing of John
Bunyan. Read "Grace Abounding to the Chief of Sinners" or "Christian
Behaviour" at http://www.johnbunyan.org/ these writing are public
domain and are there for downloading. I have found them to be very
helpful in my daily walk with Christ. If these are not to your taste
then read "Sinners in the hands of an Angry God" maybe that will help
you to figure out that there is a diference in committing a sin and
living in sin.
garydw
"takeleus" <t...@cei.net> wrote in message
news:1f9b10d4.04021...@posting.google.com...
So many people claim to know what God wants for me, and others like me.
I say again, Christianity must change or it will Die.
OnYn1
I want to explain my post better because I think it was mis-understood.
So I will put it this way. A person that is a drug addict, does have a
somewhat greater probability of the sins of crimes, than one that does not have
the drug problem.
Well, hormones are like drugs, and many a young person goes nuts when they
become teens, and sin, and those same people were nice sincere Christians
before they became teens, and had a hormone problem to deal with.
This is not an excuse for sin, but a person can have an easier time if they
go see a doctor and get help keeping their hormone levels in correct balance.
Now I also do not want my post to be considered that I was suggesting Kirk
might be a Kirka, or Kirky a female that was just in need of surgery.
But I have heard that sometimes males are born with functioning overies,
and abnormal hormone levels, and such persons can be helped by surgery, and or
homone therapy to get their hormones in normal balance.
A medical doctor can help by having a cat scan, to determine if the person has
female organs present, can do chromosome tests to determine if the persons is
xy, xxy or xxyy and also have tests done to determine hormone levels and
proscribe meds to bring the hormone levels into correct balance. and also let a
person know what medical options they might choose to correct the problem, such
as surgery.
I have also heard that males do produce both male and female hormones, and if
they are not in correct balance, the person will start to develope female
characteristics, voice be higher, etc.
I think I have finally heard Kirk sing, and he does have a rather high
voice for a tenor, and it makes me think he does maybe have a medical problem.
No thats no excuse, but Kirk, if your reading this, I think a doctor can help
you in your battle, It will be much easier if your not affected by abnormal
hormone levels, just like it is much easier for a drug addict to resist certain
sins, if they are no longer addicted and or on drugs.
OnYn1
Christians will be saved right up till the time of the end, not die off at all.
Instead, its the sinners that are choosing to remain in their sins that
revelation tells us will soon die off.
Steve
Kirk has a beautiful voice and it does not need to be fixed by a doctor nor
does any other part of him I feel very certain. Are you the surgeon general of
the United States now?+
Steve
Jeff Thompson
pray that Jesus went to his church and listened to him preach I would hate
to get to heaven and find out that jesus went to hell cuz he didnt do it
Allens way.
Jeff
Hank Gillette
Just Allan <just...@COLDhotmail.com> wrote:
> And of course He didn't die more for one than another, because all sin
> has the same *reward*. But not all sin has the same level of
> depravity. For instance, if someone got angry with your wife without
> a cause, then another man raped your daughter - I expect you'd see a
> big difference between those two sins.
Well, if we're going to rate sins, we know that homosexuality is not
even in God's top ten, otherwise, there'd be something about it in the
ten commandments. So, I wonder, do you get this upset about people who
don't honor their mothers and fathers?
--
Hank Gillette
Hank Gillette
"Jeff Thompson" <meth...@comcast.net> wrote:
> And yes Hank I am new to this group and to newsgroups in general. I have
> only used them over the years when I needed an answer to a question. The one
> that brought me here for example which was quickly answered and most
> appreciated.
Well, I hope you stick around and keep contributing your opinion.
--
Hank Gillette
Hank Gillette
Just Allan <just...@COLDhotmail.com> wrote:
> So in reference to
> homosexuality, I know what I've said lines up with God's Word 100%.
> Therefore I can confidently say if someone thinks otherwise, yes they
> are wrong. Not because I'm right - but because He is.
You do understand, don't you, that there are people who have examined
the same scriptures that you have, including some who have gone back to
the original Hebrew, Aramic, and Greek, and have come to different
conclusions about what the Bible says about homosexuality?
--
Hank Gillette
REvans2311
>>simply wait a few weeks until the storm blew over. Only time will tell if
>>it's back to "business as usual". I sure hope not.
>>
>>
>>
>
>BigUn,
>
>I am glad to see someone sees this like I see it. Kirk Talley is
>going to have to address where he stands concerning his homosexuality.
>I think singing in his church is one thing. He mentioned three
>different venues he will be singing. That is completely different.
>
>I see that he has three options if plans return to full time southern
>gospel: 1) Say he is a homosexual and believes it is not contrary to
>God's word and he plans to continue to sing. 2) Say he is a
>homosexual, but will abstain from the lifestyle, and 3)say he has
>repented, renounce that lifestyle and then return to SG.
>
>The only way I see him successfully returning to SG is option 3. Most
>churches are not ready to accept an openly gay southern gospel singer.
>Some will, but most will not.
>
>None of that has been addressed and by his own admision hs is still
>seeking couseling. He does not go into specifics on what the
>counseling is for. For all we know, he is being counseled to accept
>his lifestyle and that being gay is fine and not against God's word.
>
> I think it is fine to be forgiving and pray for him and hope he will
>be able to return, but some of y'all have your heads in the sand if
>you think he is ready to return without addressing where he stands
>concerning his lifestyle choices.
>
>
>
>
>
AND OF COURSE NO ONE ON THIS MESSAGE BOARD WOULD GIVE HIM THE BENEFIT OF THE
DOUBT . . . . .
WHY CAN'T SOMEONE PRAY FOR HIM AND PRAY THAT GOD WILL WORK A MIRACLE IN HIS
LIFE, RATHER THAN ALWAYS SUSPECTING THE WORST???
IF YOU HAD BEEN SO SPIRITUAL IN THE FIRST PLACE, YOU WOULD BEEN THERE TO HELP
AND TRY TO RESTORE HIM. THAT IS WHAT THE WORD SAYS FOR YOU SPIRITUAL ONES TO
DO.
REvans2311
>WHOA!! What is more important, their "love for preaching" or being
>removed from the pulpit for sin? If a pastor committed a sexual
>indiscretion with a female member of the church, he SHOULD be removed
>and sit out a couple of years until he gets his act together. If he
>committed the sexual indiscretion with a male member of the church, I
>wouldn't want him in front of MY family, teaching one thing and doing
>another. The Church of God (and I am NOT a fan of that organization)
>has every right to remove a pastor for a homosexual act.
>It flies in the face of their very teaching.
>
>
>
>
AND HAVING AN AFFAIR WITH A WOMAN DON'T???????????
TommyDale
One is defined as a sin. The other is not only called sin, it is an ABOMINATION!
Just Allan
>I would encourage
>everyone in this group to download a copy of the writing of John
>Bunyan. Read "Grace Abounding to the Chief of Sinners" or "Christian
>Behaviour" at http://www.johnbunyan.org/ these writing are public
>domain and are there for downloading.
I didn't realise these were out there for download. Sounds like
something sensible to read instead of the limp-wristed doctrines
flying around here lately. Thank you!
Just Allan
>A medical doctor can help by having a cat scan, to determine if the person has
>female organs present, can do chromosome tests to determine if the persons is
>xy, xxy or xxyy and also have tests done to determine hormone levels and
>proscribe meds to bring the hormone levels into correct balance. and also let a
>person know what medical options they might choose to correct the problem, such
>as surgery.
And for those who are homosexuals without a medical excuse, have some
surgery anyway. [snip, snip] : )