George Kooymans and Led Zeppelin
Henk Tittel
I have just watched the dvd release of Led Zeppelin live.
5 hours of the best live performances I have seen for years.
Luckely enough I saw the perform live in Rotterdam, anyway the reason why I
wrote this is the following:
George made the statement after seeing Led Zep live "what heck are we doing
here as long as this band is around"
(and I think it was stated in the book that released some years ago at the
free record shop)
And yes being a fan of Golden Earring since 77 and I think they are still
one of the best live on stage, I allmost agree with George:
"what heck are we doing here as long as this band is around"
Well evry music lover knows that Led Zeppelin is not around anymore but stil
the most influenced band in Rock world.
And.....what if George was as inventive as Jimmy Page was????
Henk
PS
And I am not down talking Golden Earring................:-)
Henk Westerik
The influence of Zep was very clear on the their first 70th album "wall of
dolls"..They were there at the "circusgebouw" or "concert gebouw" (don't
remember the venue) where Zep performed life by the end of the 60th
At that time George started creating his riff based compositions...
But .. george not as inventive as ???.... not really... Where Jimmy goes
under in alcohol and lack of creativity after a few years George is getting
better and far more inventive then Jimmy.... where Jimmy was able to
"compose" a nice guitar solo he was very able to mess things up...and after
say 6, 7 years it was over......
In matters of creativity George wins with lengths.....
Whats Moonflowers opinion on this ?????
HenkW
jan karstens
Thanks in advance,
Jan.
"Henk Tittel" <dwee...@hotmail.com> schreef in bericht
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Henk Tittel
The creativity of Page spanned from 1963 till 2000
In this time he wrote or co wrote:
Whole lotta love, black dog, Stairway to heaven, Kashmir and probably 100
other songs far more inventive then any other rock musician I know.
Led Zep stayed around till Bonham died and Page took his time to recover
from this set back, don't forget also the loss of the son of Plant in 77.
Anyway he made some very interesting stuff after 1980 (outrider is an very
good record)
Also hit back with no quarter...no you can't say he went under in
drugs...yes he did temporary...as all in the scene.
My opinion is that he one of the best (as not the best)'old' guitar players
and a very talented studio engineer, producer.
And for writing music I have the same opinion.
Check this site: http://ledzeppelin.alexreisner.com/page.html
or this one:
http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Limo/9801/page.html
Greetings,
Henk
"Henk Westerik" <h...@planet.nl> schreef in bericht
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Henk Westerik
To put things straight.. I do love the music of Jimmy Page.... I remember
running to the record shop after hearing Led I on the radio (Super Clean
Dream Machine by Ad Visser (yes he) and Ad Gravezande)
The difference between Jimmy % George (for me) is ratio versus emotions..
Jimmy was in his good time a very technical player while George was and is
more emotional in his approach to playing guitar solo's .
When I listtend to Jimmy i got this feeling of "facinating" while listening
to George it makes my flesh creep.... so I guess its a matter of tast and
both of us are right.. or wrong...
After listening to this kind of music for say 40 years I do listen a lot to
earring records and not so much to Led.. so... apparently (loving guitar
sounds).. George way of playing means so much more to me...
And when I think of really inventive guitar playing.. in that case no-one
beats Richard Thompson......
HenkW
Henk Tittel
Maybe you have to listen to some live recordings of them.
Anyway I do respect your opinion, and as said I am a fan of GE
Henk
"Henk Westerik" <h...@planet.nl> schreef in bericht
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danLynch
Page... I just like Kooymans better...
dan
Henk Tittel
not a good guitar player because he is, what I meant is:
George was/is indeed not very confident about his own playing, and it I am
glad that we all have our own opinions about what is good or not.
But to say George is more talented and inventive then Jimmy is for me kinda
hard to accept, again nothing wrong about George he is good in his way and I
wouldn't be an fan since 1977 if I would think he or the band is bad, my
point was that I was very enthousiastic about he new releases of Led
Zeppelin, and while listening to them (the DVD and the CD's) it proved me
again how extremely talented this whole band was both in writing and
performing on stage.
Anyway I have had this discussion before and it just came back to my mind
listening to this stuff.
And I will stay fan off Earring no matter which other great bands might pass
by.
Henk
"danLynch" <daniel...@verizon.net> schreef in bericht
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schaakx
he is very underestimated as a guitarist!
Just recall what he has be doing over the last 40 years or so!
Henk Schaakxs
"danLynch" <daniel...@verizon.net> schreef in bericht
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jan karstens
Page has a history of a white-blues man, the same order as Beck, Green and
Clapton.
Kooy is a real song-writer, a very great song-writer. But he is NOT a
white-blues man.
So don't compare him with Page, please.
Kooy is Kooy, and I love his songs.
Grts,
Jan Karstens
"schaakx" <buz...@office.nl> schreef in bericht
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Henk Tittel
has a blues background........but Led Zeppelin transformed to rock and
proved to be one of the best. Don't forget the Celtic and Eastern influences
in later records, not much to do with blues.
Kooy is Kooy indeed and great in being Kooy.....yes he is very talented, yes
he is underestimated, yes he is great in the studio I agree in all of this
But I wonder how much more great songs would have been surfaced if he was
more confident or (personal opinion) if he was more inventive.
Maybe he didn't had the chances and/or money like Jimmy, but face
it......G.K. wrote alot of good and very good songs.....but also a lot of
songs barely good enough to fill the record (all though on stage Earring
managed to bring them sounding much better) in my opinion Golden Earring is
a very very good Live band, in the studio there can much to be approved, I
am hardly playing any of there studio records.
Allmost every song (allmost not all) of J.P. is worth while to listen or to
be on that record.
And now I am stopping this debate.....once again I mention that I do like
the GE very much, and I am not downtalking GE or any of there members of
this great band.
Henk
"jan karstens" <kars...@home.nl> schreef in bericht
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jan karstens
I do love LZeppelin. Once in a while, I'm listening to the BBC-Sessions
1997. As a matter of fact, right now. Great band.news:8qDEa.105578$EO1.4...@castor.casema.net...
Henk Tittel
"jan karstens" <kars...@home.nl> schreef in bericht
news:bbv0vt$khq$1...@news3.tilbu1.nb.home.nl...
jan karstens
jan karstens
you will hear white-man-blues
technique. Eelco is as great as Page, Green, Beck etc.news:4LDEa.143779$dP4.5...@pollux.casema.net...
Henk Westerik
The comparison was not about style but about being inventive... I stated
that Kooy is a particular inventive guitar player and that he can compete
with Jimmy Page etc....
HenkW
( a lott of Henk's these days...:)
jan karstens
jan karstens
Henk Tittel
to me that he can't compete with Page.
But that is not the point either....Kooy is the best guitar player for
GE...no one else can replace him in that band.
Nothing more nothing less.
Henk T
"Henk Westerik" <h...@planet.nl> schreef in bericht
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>
Moonflower
discussion!:-)
Led Zeppelin may be one of the most innovative bands in the history of
rock. And Jimmy Page didn't only write riffs that you can't compare
with anything else, but he also was a inventor of melodies that linger
forever in your mind. As a guitarplayer he was wild, provocative and
passionate in his playing. But he also was rather sloppy at numerous
occasions; just listen to the countless bootlegs that appeared over
the years. And his tone wasn't exacly the most beautiful I can
imagine.
George Kooymans is one of the best songwriters in the history of
popular music. And like Henk already said: while Jimmy Page wrote over
95% of his songs before 1980 and only wrote one acceptable record
after this period: that is Coverdale/Page in 1993, George is still one
of the most productive producers of mucical jewelry until this very
day. He's also to my ears a more versatile guitar player, more capable
of playing many different kind of styles than Jimmy Page. And although
the Page/Plant acoustic sessions are very famous, far more famous than
the Naked Truth cd's by the Earring, George is beyond any reasonable
doubt the far better acoustic player.
About George being too selfconscies on stage may be very true at
times. But he also can come up with the most beautiful, surprising
improvisations humanly possible. I must admit I am playing myself
hardly guitar; but I sing and can play the piano (and I used to play
the harp), I listen to many guitarplayer. To name a few: David
Gilmour, Ritche Blackmore, Carlos Santana, Jimmy Page (indeed). But my
favourite player still remains George Kooymans!:-) He can be subtile
and tender like no other player, but can be surprisingly aggressive
when he chooses to. In short: He makes my heart sing in a way no other
player can. And oh YEAH MAN: He is also a very accomplished singer.
Which international acclaimed guitar hero could fill his shoes in this
respect;-) Some of them can sing in a way right. Maybe Dave Meniketti
of Y&T is one of his few rivals on this field.
In a way George is Page and Plant combined. And these days he
certainly has the better falsetto compared to Robert "Percy" Plant.
Cheerio,
Mechteld
Henk Westerik <h...@planet.nl> wrote in message news:<1t8oqpzurjkrb.1...@40tude.net>...
Henk Westerik
No-one can express my words better then you ! (mm.. great title for a song)
So.. I fully agree on you &myself :))
and thanks for the reaction
HenkW
Henk Westerik
You'd better be !!!
Henk Tittel
Indeed he was sometimes sloppy but when on top nobody beats him, I saw them
myself (and by that time I was an big fan of GE) and there was no way that
GE can match them, not with Eelco or anyone else playing with them.
The latest releases proof the same thing.
Further.....outrider was a very good record, what have Kooy done besides GE
what is worth listening too?
And if we forget the allmost 1000 songs Jimmy played guitar on(as being a
session musician) and if also forget the the so called heroine days Zep (for
a lot of fans not the best years of Zep) then we still have:
Led Zep 1 to 4, Houses of the holy, Physical Graphity.
I am not going into the songs on those records.....on these 6 records are
more classics then on all GE albums together.
So no Kooy can not match up as as songwriter either,how many songs can you
recall of GE being classic?
And yes....he might be not as productive since 1980...still outrider is much
better then Georges Solorecord, then the mentioned record with coverdale, No
quarter with Plant and Walking into clarksdale.
I have had this discussion before and in my eyes people on this group are
not really openminded about this subject.
George is the best guitar player for GE, but he is NOT versatile nor an
inventive guitar player, his solo's are many times to long and at the edge
of being boring (intro to the twilight zone solo)
As for acoustic guitar...the same...George improved when GE started the
Naked truth things but....No he is not an better Acoustic player either.
I am wondering on which facts you base this statement...a lot Zep songs are
based on acoustics guitar lines.
Yes...he is a very very good singer (when at tone) but to say he is plant
and page at the same time??? Well Excuse me.....I will not comment this.
Once again.....I am a fan of GE....but not in the way that I close my eyes
and ears and say they are the best.
Kooy can not compete with Page
Hay can't compete with Plant (in his great days today Hay is better)
Cesar can't compete with Bonzo
Rinus....yes he comes very very close to JPJ...
No you guys(and girls offcourse) can shoot me for the last
statement........:-)
"Moonflower" <mfl...@chello.nl> schreef in bericht
news:7f965885.03060...@posting.google.com...
Henk Westerik
turn down the Page....
HenkW
(I will buy the new Led DVD though :) )
danLynch
find more what you call...'a lot of songs barely good enough to fill the
record'... which first of all...BULLSHIT!... and second of all... how
many songs do Led Zeppelin have? Maybe 100?? How many do the Earring
have? Closer to 400??? Who has been more creative? A few bombshells?
Maybe... but I'm having a very hard time finding them...
I've heard Page... I like him... think he's one of the best... I've
heard Kooymans.... now I'm a huge Earring fan.... never really became a
Zeppelin fan... but like them enough to listen when they are played...
I respect your opinion... but you seem to be stating this information
you are giving us as if it's a fact.... Not to me it isn't. Kooymans
is my favorite guitarist/songwriter.
Dan Lynch
danLynch
KOOYMANS! KOOYMANS! KOOYMANS!!!!!
This guy is making me hate Page!
Henk Tittel
No facts....I have said: my opinion...no reason to lash out.
Also I said I am a fan of GE.
Everybody is entitled to have his own opinion isn't it?
Greetings,
Henk
"danLynch" <daniel...@verizon.net> schreef in bericht
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Henk Tittel
opinion....so please respect mine.
"danLynch" <daniel...@verizon.net> schreef in bericht
news:3EED092D...@verizon.net...
Moonflower
> Well I can go on for hoirs about this but I will give an last try:
You could, but you don't have to;-)
> Indeed he was sometimes sloppy but when on top nobody beats him, I saw them
> myself (and by that time I was an big fan of GE) and there was no way that
> GE can match them, not with Eelco or anyone else playing with them.
> The latest releases proof the same thing.
Well, I am too young to be a true witness of that period. But I've
heard many bootlegs of both Golden Earring and Led Zep of that time
(and not to mention of countless other bands too). I just heard parts
of the "How The West Was Won" cd and the DVD (forgot the name). And my
opinion hasn't changed a bit;-) Page is in many spots on these
recordings very very sloppy and out of pitch. But he also has
marvellous, exciting moments like for instance on "How Many More
Times".
>
> Further.....outrider was a very good record, what have Kooy done besides GE
> what is worth listening too?
I have to listen to "Outrider" again to share an honest opinion with
you. About Kooymans solo records: they both have interesting moments,
but are far from being perfect. "Jojo" has a very melancholic
atmosphere and some very sweet, haunting guitaring. In "Solo" the
vocals and the lyrics are far more interesting, but the production is
a bit on the flat side. Still I would be very interested in a new
album by George on his own.
> And if we forget the allmost 1000 songs Jimmy played guitar on(as being a
> session musician) and if also forget the the so called heroine days Zep (for
> a lot of fans not the best years of Zep) then we still have:
> Led Zep 1 to 4, Houses of the holy, Physical Graphity.
> I am not going into the songs on those records.....on these 6 records are
> more classics then on all GE albums together.
> So no Kooy can not match up as as songwriter either,how many songs can you
> recall of GE being classic?
I think Golden Earring has countless songs that are not very
well-known to the big audiences of the world, but earn the title
"Classic" by any means. Led Zep's advantage was American FM Radio that
made almost every song they ever did to an album hit. Both Jimmy and
Kooymans are amazing inventors of melodies just as Tony Iommy of Black
Sabbath Ken Hensley/Mick Box of Uriah Heep and Waters/Gilmour of Pink
Floyd.
> And yes....he might be not as productive since 1980...still outrider is much
> better then Georges Solorecord, then the mentioned record with coverdale, No
> quarter with Plant and Walking into clarksdale.
I think "Walking Into Clarksdale" is a very weak and boring album as a
whole. Also the Firm albums are rather unimportant sounding pieces in
my not so humble opinion at least;-) Page/Plant was nice, but not very
new. This "new" version of "No Quarter" was selfindulgent in a boring
vague way. The rape of a masterpiece........
>
> I have had this discussion before and in my eyes people on this group are
> not really openminded about this subject.
> George is the best guitar player for GE, but he is NOT versatile nor an
> inventive guitar player, his solo's are many times to long and at the edge
> of being boring (intro to the twilight zone solo)
I listen to many bands, so I guess you could call me openminded. But
since I am posting in the Golden Earring newsgroup, it's not very
difficult to guess what my favourite band is;-
Page maybe more inventive than George. But George created a very
recognisable, very exciting and very poetic sound of his own. And
while George really is putting a whole pallet of colours into his
playing, Page's tone almost never changes in colour or shape. In this
respect there are many guitarplayers that can beat Little Jimmy Pagey
with a hard hammer; and I am now not only talking about George. Just
listen To Blackmore or Carlos Santana.
George's solos being too long and boring??? I think they rarely are
long enough, and what he does in "Twilight Zone" electricly and
acousticly is a very good example for his mastership and musical
fantasy. And talking about boring and far too long: what the endless
very often monotonous noodling in "Dazed and confused" or the mess
Jimmy makes of "Whole Lotta Love" live. I must admit he did some very
beautiful soloing in for instance "Since I've Been Loving You".
Especially the intro is almost in every version very lovely. And his
solo in "Stairway To Heaven" in the "Song Remains The Same" version
brings shivers down my spine. Still all the other versions of this
solo don't come even close to this one. And perhaps my favourite Led
Zeppelin and jimmy Page song is "Tea For One" from "Presence".
> As for acoustic guitar...the same...George improved when GE started the
> Naked truth things but....No he is not an better Acoustic player either.
> I am wondering on which facts you base this statement...a lot Zep songs are
> based on acoustics guitar lines.
I think George is a far better acoustic player judging especially from
the unplugged sessions both he and Jimmy did. I won't say George was
on the earlier records technically better in the acoustic passages
than Jimmy in for instance "Bron-y-Aur". However George improved
himself over the years, and Jimmy hardly did IMO at least.
>
> Yes...he is a very very good singer (when at tone) but to say he is plant
> and page at the same time??? Well Excuse me.....I will not comment this.
As a singer it's not very difficult to compare him with Plant I guess.
He has the same range, and the same possibility of doing weird
vocalisations. He may not always be on pitch I admit. But comparing
late sixties and seventies George with Plant, you will find many times
a better vocal actor than Plant. Plant was an interprete of sounds
rather than of words. Nowadays Plant more interpretes lyrics than he
did before and this Plant I really find more interesting.
> Once again.....I am a fan of GE....but not in the way that I close my eyes
> and ears and say they are the best.
Beauty is in the eye and ear of the beholder. So........
> Kooy can not compete with Page
Well you already know my thoughts about this issue;-)
> Hay can't compete with Plant (in his great days today Hay is better)
I think it's very hard to compare Plant and Hay. Hay is a low tenor or
a high baritone while Plant was a kind of contratenor. Hay was/is also
for more an interprete of words.
> Cesar can't compete with Bonzo
IMO Bonzo was rhytmically more intererting and Cesar the better
creator of drumsolos
> Rinus....yes he comes very very close to JPJ...
Rinus and JPJ: apples and oranges again. Rinus is a very heavy player,
while JPJ was rather on the light side....But they both are rather
good keyboard players.
>
> No you guys(and girls offcourse) can shoot me for the last
> statement........:-)
Okay, I am by all means a Gurrrl;-)
Good night,
Mechteld
Moonflower
> No-one can express my words better then you ! (mm.. great title for a song)
I think I am turning deep red now, not Purple I swear;-)
> So.. I fully agree on you &myself :))
One of a kind, haha
> and thanks for the reaction
It was an honour to me
> HenkW
Talk to you soon,
Mechteld
danLynch
better. The first time was okay, but you kept going on and on and on...
If I sound rude... oh well... get over it. this is the Earring
newsgroup. We don't mind opinions... but to keep coming back with a 10
minute reading each time... saying that the first 4 albums of Zeppelin
has more classics than all the Earring albums... I say... blow it out
your ass! If that's the case... why be an earring fan at all?
Dan
Henk Tittel
group I am not alowed to have my opinions, I am sorry I did not know that
(just kidding....this is all complete bull.....if this was the attitude of
all in this group I would never post or react ever again)
Further, yes I am a fan since 1977, that was the first time I saw them live
(with Eelco) and ever since then I am a fan of there Live performances.
I am not really impressed by there studio recordings (at least not
all...they do have some very good songs, I never said anything else)
Another thing.....you don't have to trough 10 minutes readings if you don't
want to...that is your decision.
Henk
"danLynch" <daniel...@verizon.net> schreef in bericht
news:3EF0F867...@verizon.net...
Henk Tittel
read your whole message!!
Henk
"Moonflower" <mfl...@chello.nl> schreef in bericht
news:7f965885.03061...@posting.google.com...
Gerrit Jaap Driesens
news:7f965885.03061...@posting.google.com...
> I think I am turning deep red now, not Purple I swear;-)
What's wrong with Purple? I like Purple, especially Deep Purple !! ;-)
Bye,
GJD
Niels Dol
Gerrit Jaap Driesens <3sensN...@hetnet.nl> schreef in berichtnieuws
bcss77$1n3$1...@reader11.wxs.nl...
Henk Westerik
danLynch
was reacting to your letter just like I would as if it were said to me
in person and I had a split second to respond. I'm sorry, but I don't
agree with your assesment of Jimmy Page. That's what I was saying...
Golden Earring is my favorite band. To read some of the comments you
were making that, to me, were very negative in regards to my favorite
band... All I meant was... I DO NOT AGREE. JIMMY PAGE DOES NOT IMPRESS
ME TOO MUCH... George Kooymans blows him away. And he keeps getting
better. He doesn't have to go and do solo stuff for me.... I like him
with the Earring... his solo stuff is pretty cool.... but the Earring
is where he belongs and I'm glad that is where he kept his focus.
The Rooster
Stan
Moonflower
prefered Blackmore's other band: Rainbow;-) Still I am going to see
them on the Arrow Classic Rock Festival at the end of the month. That
is without Blackmore and John Lord..... Also one of my other favourite
classic rock acts Uriah Heep will perform there.
Mechteld
"Gerrit Jaap Driesens" <3sensN...@hetnet.nl> wrote in message news:<bcss77$1n3$1...@reader11.wxs.nl>...
Moonflower
Best wishes,
Mechteld
"Henk Tittel" <dwee...@donotspamhotmail.com> wrote in message news:<DpdIa.217980$EO1.7...@castor.casema.net>...
Henk Tittel
I do not know much about Jojo I have to admit, so I can't say much about
that record.
I did like the live performance of Kooymans live.(I think it was at
Countdown cafe?)
I was more thinking about the Since i've been loving you and Kashmir when I
mentioned the No quarter record of Page and Plant.
And yes comparing this to LZ the whole record is quite average, but the
herebove mentioned songs were quite ok to me.
One thing is clear to me, GE did make a lot of good songs...some were better
on stage then on record.
One wil say better then LZ, others say worse...anyway that is for anyone to
decide him or herself.
That is the fun about music isn't it?
Yes Kooymans has his very own sound and yes I like his sound very
much....otherwise I wouldn't go to GE as often as I did in the past.
Nowadays I hardly go to any concert due to a lack of time...not because I
don't like GE or other bands.
Well for one the solo's in Dazed are to long for others simply is top, the
guitar parts in most somgs of TSRTS is very interesting and very inventive.
The same goes for the newly released live records, point of critics might be
that maybe Page could have choosen different song for these latest
realeases.
The part of Kooymans solo's which I found boring (my opinion not based on
technical skills orso) is the sometimes long time before the solo itself
starts...the slow parts are for my ears not interesting enough (once
again...my opinion)
His singing is when at tone very very good.
Favorite songs of GK:
Mad love, Con man, She flies.specially the older stuf and when played live,
the live record with Eelco was top.
Anyway to close this discussion....I never intended to downtalk GK.
Henk
"Moonflower" <mfl...@chello.nl> schreef in bericht
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Henk Tittel
showed in you replies.
A reply to a mail or message is not an split second thing, at least that is
what I think.
So I close this discussion too...I have my opinion you have yours, both are
ok.
"danLynch" <daniel...@verizon.net> schreef in bericht
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